View Full Version : Road Rage/Reckless Driver Incident
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 10:38
This past Saturday some idiot pretty much tried to run me off the road on one of those streets that changes from two lanes to one. I did get the guy's license plate number, but I realize the cops pretty much would blow it off since he never actually hit my vehicle or anything.
My main concern is that this jerk probably does this kind of thing all the time. Is there any way to get back at him within the law just so he learns a lesson?
Which lane ended? They aren't always left or always right.
That being said, they probably do it all the time. We have lots of center passing lanes on hills here and it can be interesting watching how long someone will hang in the lead vehicles blind spot before trying to pass only when the lanes merge. Seen it so often I wonder if it isn't some sort of weird mental disorder.
I don't believe there is any sort of legally sanctioned vengeance you can exact upon someone. If there is anything "within the law" you can do, it will be so minor that it won't achieve the result of "teaching him a lesson", so why bother wasting the energy?
Are you sure he tried to run you off the road?
Maybe he didnt realize the lane was ending.
Both sides need to work together during a merge... were you trying to block him out?
Not all bad driving in intentional or malicious, just showing the other side.
If he was being a jerk, just accept that some people are asses and move on- imo.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-08-19, 12:20
Californians, high on weed, or just dumb. Here is CO I've given up on expecting anything out of other drivers. We don't have the speed freaks that seem to populate FL highways, but Jesus are there a lot of non-hackers out there not paying attention while driving.
Considering the number of millennials that don't want to drive- image their lack of interest in knowing the finer points of correctly driving.
While we are here. What do you guys think about 'zippering' . I thought I was taught, and I was definitely told, to get into the lane going through early- even if that lane is backed up and the other lane clear. Now it seems the taught way is to use two lanes until the merge point? Thinking about it, the merge at the actual physical merge makes sense. It should be the fairest if you go left-right-left-right lane when in stop and go traffic. Lots of times the merge traffic starts before you know what is going on because there haven't been signs yet. Plus, when you have a light ahead of the merge, using both lanes allows more people through during the light, which can then bleed off during a red light and traffic is stopped at the light.
Are you sure he tried to run you off the road?
Maybe he didnt realize the lane was ending.
Both sides need to work together during a merge... were you trying to block him out?
Not all bad driving in intentional or malicious, just showing the other side.
If he was being a jerk, just accept that some people are asses and move on- imo.
I'm working with my 22 y.o. son on this right now.
Right lane merges into the left. Dude stuck in the right looks in his mirror and realizes all the cars in the left lane are packed tight, he accelerates because there is a gap in front of my son, son accelerates to block the guy, I give my kid a giant WTF?, son says "no way that asshole gets ahead of me", I say "why not? It's not an F'n race and what would you have done if you were the guy in the right lane?" As long as the guy in the right lane continues on at a rate of speed that doesn't impede me, I don't care any more. Life's too short to get wound up about shit like this.
Do I get annoyed when a guy gets out of line, knowing the lanes are going to merge, and pass on the right.. hell yes I do, but I just move on with life.
BUT.. as a commercial truck driver, it more annoys me when the lanes merge to one and I'm signalling for over a mile and not one asshole will let me in.
I think the answer to your question is; no, not really.
My main concern is that this jerk probably does this kind of thing all the time. Is there any way to get back at him within the law just so he learns a lesson?
Don't know where The Ranch is, but if you are in Texas you can report such activity to 911 with the plate #. They will then be on the lookout for them. Not sure what they do when they find the however. https://www.txdot.gov/driver/share-road/aggressive-drivers.html
if you lived up here, that shit would happen to you three or four times a day...
Don't know where The Ranch is, but if you are in Texas you can report such activity to 911 with the plate #. They will then be on the lookout for them. Not sure what they do when they find the however. https://www.txdot.gov/driver/share-road/aggressive-drivers.html
It's happened to me. I was pulled over by commercial vehicle enforcement for a report from a concerned citizen that I didn't signal when I changed lanes. I changed lanes quickly and did not signal because the guy in front of me (guy who called me in) inexplicably slammed on his brakes on a highway. No time to signal with two hands on the wheel, check the mirrors and take evasive action. I replayed my dash camera for the officer and was cleared immediately. The officer noted the vehicle type and license number and turned it over to the troopers because he felt the guy complaining was a danger.
So... if you want to be a road ranger, get a dash cam. Be aware, just like body cams, they can hang you just as much as they can save you.
grizzlyblake
04-08-19, 13:58
Forget it and move on.
To Doc - sometimes people do dumb/distracted things, it may not have been deliberate on his part. If it was deliberate, rest assured Karma will catch up with him.
My philosophy has become "If I dwell on an incident on the road, then the other driver wins." It's better to enjoy looking at interesting cars, pretty birds or girls, or whatever than to let some idiot or a-hole ruin my drive.
I do try to dive very defensively, but courteously. Maybe letting the person ahead of me merge is the nicest thing anyone has done for them in a long time. Maybe not, but it's no skin off my nose...
While we are here. What do you guys think about 'zippering' . I thought I was taught, and I was definitely told, to get into the lane going through early- even if that lane is backed up and the other lane clear. Now it seems the taught way is to use two lanes until the merge point? Thinking about it, the merge at the actual physical merge makes sense. It should be the fairest if you go left-right-left-right lane when in stop and go traffic. Lots of times the merge traffic starts before you know what is going on because there haven't been signs yet. Plus, when you have a light ahead of the merge, using both lanes allows more people through during the light, which can then bleed off during a red light and traffic is stopped at the light.
What I do when a lane merges for accident or construction to stop those zippers is weave and try to block both lanes to force them to get in line when getting close to the merge.
OP, nothing you can do, let it go.
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 14:20
To Doc - sometimes people do dumb/distracted things, it may not have been deliberate on his part. If it was deliberate, rest assured Karma will catch up with him.
.
He deliberately sped up when I had nowhere to go. I know nobody was there, but he came from definitely behind me to almost pushing me into a steel rail. There's no way that was not deliberate. What I thought about doing was using his license number to find out where he works, then writing a nice, long anonymous letter to his boss relating the incident. At the very least it would give him pause.
He deliberately sped up when I had nowhere to go. I know nobody was there, but he came from definitely behind me to almost pushing me into a steel rail. There's no way that was not deliberate. What I thought about doing was using his license number to find out where he works, then writing a nice, long anonymous letter to his boss relating the incident. At the very least it would give him pause.
Well, I would call it in with the license number, that wouldn't hurt. I had an idiot do something similar getting on the freeway, he locked it up in front of me, very erratic driver. He traveled to my exit ramp, I called it in and police intercepted and stopped the guy.
We now have to cams in the car, front and rear. Always on, these cams capture licenses great up to about 30 ft, decent quality for cheap.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076GYGVY5
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bb38t1l8c6rprkv/roav.jpeg?raw=1
What I do when a lane merges for accident or construction to stop those zippers is weave and try to block both lanes to force them to get in line when getting close to the merge.
OP, nothing you can do, let it go.
If you are not a cop, thats pretty messed up.
Signs here say “use both lanes to merge point” so thats what you should do.
Only cops should be controlling traffic. Ive seen trucks try to block people like that and it caused unessesary backups.
Well, I would call it in with the license number, that wouldn't hurt. I had an idiot do something similar getting on the freeway, he locked it up in front of me, very erratic driver. He traveled to my exit ramp, I called it in and police intercepted and stopped the guy.
We now have to cams in the car, front and rear. Always on, these cams capture licenses great up to about 30 yds, decent quality for cheap.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076GYGVY5
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bb38t1l8c6rprkv/roav.jpeg?raw=1
That I can understand doing and as I mentioned earlier about knowing what an aggravation last second passers are in merge areas are, but actually reporting that and the failure to use a turn signal thing got my curiosity up. W
How does that result in getting pulled over? I can't imagine outside of some place operated like the Dukes of Hazzard where that would result in a ticket that would even remotely stick.
Californians, high on weed, or just dumb. Here is CO I've given up on expecting anything out of other drivers. We don't have the speed freaks that seem to populate FL highways, but Jesus are there a lot of non-hackers out there not paying attention while driving.
Considering the number of millennials that don't want to drive- image their lack of interest in knowing the finer points of correctly driving.
While we are here. What do you guys think about 'zippering' . I thought I was taught, and I was definitely told, to get into the lane going through early- even if that lane is backed up and the other lane clear. Now it seems the taught way is to use two lanes until the merge point? Thinking about it, the merge at the actual physical merge makes sense. It should be the fairest if you go left-right-left-right lane when in stop and go traffic. Lots of times the merge traffic starts before you know what is going on because there haven't been signs yet. Plus, when you have a light ahead of the merge, using both lanes allows more people through during the light, which can then bleed off during a red light and traffic is stopped at the light.
You absolutely should use the lane until the point of merging, otherwise shit gets so backed up no-one moves! It's also CO law to use the lane until the point of merging.
At the merge point it should be one from this lane and then one from that lane back and forth. Things would move so much quicker if everyone knew this and acted accordingly.
Same thing with 4 way stops- no one knows what to do anymore! It's infuriating!!! FFS people!
And folks think a license to drive somehow makes one a better, safer and/or more capable driver...HA!
Coal Dragger
04-08-19, 15:23
He deliberately sped up when I had nowhere to go. I know nobody was there, but he came from definitely behind me to almost pushing me into a steel rail. There's no way that was not deliberate. What I thought about doing was using his license number to find out where he works, then writing a nice, long anonymous letter to his boss relating the incident. At the very least it would give him pause.
While that is a dick move on his part, I have to ask if you’re familiar with the operation of your brake pedal or accelerator pedal? Almost sounds like the answer is no.
So the foot pedals in the driver side footwell have individual functions, and they are adjustable. Typically the input on each of them from your foot, will produce a similar adjustment to vehicle speed. Here’s a basic run down:
The pedal on the right is for acceleration, pushing on it with your foot results in the engine increasing RPM’s and will make you gain speed. So it’s really useful if you want to pass on a two lane road, merge on a highway etc. It helps if you have a powerful engine at your command through this pedal. The more powerful the engine the more useful the right side pedal is at preventing other drivers from pulling dick moves during merging situations, or making you an impediment to faster moving traffic. Generally when passing or merging going fast (within reason) is not a bad idea if the road ahead is clear.
The pedal on the right controls your brakes. Pushing down on it will slow the vehicle down, proportionately to effort on the pedal. So if for example you find yourself too slow when merging you can push on it and make room for faster traffic. If you’re unable to go quickly, then push this pedal when getting passed or merging to let others in the lane next to you get around safely.
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 15:26
Like I said: No one on this forum was there. I had to slam on the brakes to avoid being an ornament on a guard rail or attached to his front fender.
grizzlyblake
04-08-19, 15:29
Weren't you a freaking cop? And now you're on a forum asking for advise on how to handle an aggressive driver? By maybe writing anonymous letters to his boss?
Dude................................
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 15:31
Weren't you a freaking cop? And now you're on a forum asking for advise on how to handle an aggressive driver? By maybe writing anonymous letters to his boss?
Dude................................
I realize there probably isn't a law enforcement option after the fact. I was hoping there might be some civil remedy or something that's pretty underhanded but not illegal I could do.
I got a contractor to lose his contract with a home builder one time by reporting his shoddy work to the builder. It won't be the first time I've done something nasty to somebody but stayed within the law.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-08-19, 15:58
Weren't you a freaking cop? And now you're on a forum asking for advise on how to handle an aggressive driver? By maybe writing anonymous letters to his boss?
Dude................................
Color me confused about the whole story.
Either report it, be a good witness, and try to snap some videos or pictures for evidence....
Or....
Get over it.
Somehow obtaining his personal info from his plate, then obtaining his work info, then writing an anonymous letter about how he didn't treat you nicely seems very creepy and weird. And illegal.
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 16:06
Color me confused about the whole story.
Either report it, be a good witness, and try to snap some videos or pictures for evidence....
Or....
Get over it.
Somehow obtaining his personal info from his plate, then obtaining his work info, then writing an anonymous letter about how he didn't treat you nicely seems very creepy and weird. And illegal.
Well, I'm not out to break the law in any way, shape, or form.
My anger has long past over this. The thought crossed my mind he might have been a convict from years back that recognized me from when I worked corrections, but that was nearly 20 years ago and I'm pretty sure I didn't piss anybody off to that extent.
I just hate to see someone like that continue to possess a driver's license. I modified my thread title--thinking about it further it's probably more reckless driving than road rage. It looks to me like he decided to "race" me or something stupid and I took it as him trying to run me off the road. I was hoping there might be some way I hadn't thought of to get him to have a little bit of a godsmack and not do stupid shit like that and maybe kill somebody.
But the first person who said it is probably right: Karma will catch up with that individual, but who ends up dead due to his driving in the process?
That's my only concern at this point.
I've been driving down the street on occasion where I reported drunk drivers and followed them a few blocks. In neither case did a cop show up to pull them over. This area is just too rural for anybody to respond that quickly.
I just hope I'm not driving in that same area in a few months and I see that same truck having caused an accident.
Anyway thanks for the replies. I realize the guy probably won't have any consequences for his horrible driving.
I'm letting it go.
This past Saturday some idiot pretty much tried to run me off the road on one of those streets that changes from two lanes to one. I did get the guy's license plate number, but I realize the cops pretty much would blow it off since he never actually hit my vehicle or anything.
My main concern is that this jerk probably does this kind of thing all the time. Is there any way to get back at him within the law just so he learns a lesson?
Deleted
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 16:36
You should go talk to somebody we both supposedly know to see if it's your job to teach someone a lesson.
If you're referring to that Jewish Carpenter Fella you're undoubtedly right, but dang it I hate being the one that never takes a stand or does nothing.
That guy could have killed me or, on a different day, someone else.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-08-19, 17:26
BUT.. as a commercial truck driver, it more annoys me when the lanes merge to one and I'm signalling for over a mile and not one asshole will let me in.
What I hate is when I'm closing at +20 to a couple of semis out in the middle of nowhere on I-70 and the rear one decides to try to pass NOW- and I spend 5 min as they pass the other truck at 1-2mph takeover speed. Almost lost my mind last summer on I-80 in WY when there was on/off construction down to one lane and two trucks decided not to let anyone pass when it went up to two lanes- for the next 20 miles till the next construction... People . who say that you need to be trained how to torture someone weren't in the car with me that day when I came up with some pretty nasty things to do to that driver.
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 17:33
There's a nearby town where it seems like half the streets are under construction. Two lane streets that suddenly become one lane are the worst. The line of cars in the open lane might be miles long, but people will rush up to where they can't go any further in the closed lane, and then try to cut in line in front of cars in the open lane. That really pisses me off to no end. I'll go out of my way to avoid those streets.
What I hate is when I'm closing at +20 to a couple of semis out in the middle of nowhere on I-70 and the rear one decides to try to pass NOW- and I spend 5 min as they pass the other truck at 1-2mph takeover speed. Almost lost my mind last summer on I-80 in WY when there was on/off construction down to one lane and two trucks decided not to let anyone pass when it went up to two lanes- for the next 20 miles till the next construction... People . who say that you need to be trained how to torture someone weren't in the car with me that day when I came up with some pretty nasty things to do to that driver.
You sure that wasn't Ohio? Common for drivers here to watch you coming up to pass in their rear view mirror then pull out to cut you off.
You haven’t seen rude until you’ve spent serious time driving the metro Phoenix area/the Valley.
Lotsa’ CA, NY, NJ, IL plates with bad behavior to match.
Blacktop Hell. I hate Phoenix.
You mention karma and then calling in someone who looked DUI.
Maybe those two will combine, if you happen to see his vehicle at a local watering hole.
There's a nearby town where it seems like half the streets are under construction. Two lane streets that suddenly become one lane are the worst. The line of cars in the open lane might be miles long, but people will rush up to where they can't go any further in the closed lane, and then try to cut in line in front of cars in the open lane. That really pisses me off to no end. I'll go out of my way to avoid those streets.
That's called a zipper merge.
You sure that wasn't Ohio? Common for drivers here to watch you coming up to pass in their rear view mirror then pull out to cut you off.
I-80 OH-PA.
At least once per trip
There's a nearby town where it seems like half the streets are under construction. Two lane streets that suddenly become one lane are the worst. The line of cars in the open lane might be miles long, but people will rush up to where they can't go any further in the closed lane, and then try to cut in line in front of cars in the open lane. That really pisses me off to no end. I'll go out of my way to avoid those streets.
You are a road rager.
People just want to drive properly and get on with their lives, and it pisses you off to no end.
And yet, here you are complaining about another persons ‘rage’.
Ho-lee ****.
I'm working with my 22 y.o. son on this right now.
Right lane merges into the left. Dude stuck in the right looks in his mirror and realizes all the cars in the left lane are packed tight, he accelerates because there is a gap in front of my son, son accelerates to block the guy, I give my kid a giant WTF?, son says "no way that asshole gets ahead of me", I say "why not? It's not an F'n race and what would you have done if you were the guy in the right lane?" As long as the guy in the right lane continues on at a rate of speed that doesn't impede me, I don't care any more. Life's too short to get wound up about shit like this.
Do I get annoyed when a guy gets out of line, knowing the lanes are going to merge, and pass on the right.. hell yes I do, but I just move on with life.
BUT.. as a commercial truck driver, it more annoys me when the lanes merge to one and I'm signalling for over a mile and not one asshole will let me in.
Newsflash: no one wants to get stuck behind a slow-ass semi. You chose the job.....
The asshats who go at or under the speed limit UNTIL you get to a passing zone piss me off. If it takes 100mph at that point to pass them I will. If they speed up to make it difficult or be cute I will cut it REAL close to their front end.
I'd like to ask one question, and the answers will say a lot about your driving demeanor: if you are in the left doing 85 on a 4-lane interstate (say 70mph limit) and someone comes flying up from behind (maybe they're going 100), what do you do? Do you stay in the left lane thinking "I'm going fast enough damn it, screw them" or do you move to the right and let them pass? My answer might surprise some of you given what I wrote above.
Coal Dragger
04-08-19, 21:03
Move to the right, let them pass. No skin off my ass if they want to run interference for me voluntarily!
My guess is that Doc RoadRage will try to make them slow down. Because in his mind he’s the arbiter of what constitutes proper driving.
militarymoron
04-08-19, 21:04
I'd like to ask one question, and the answers will say a lot about your driving demeanor: if you are in the left doing 85 on a 4-lane interstate (say 70mph limit) and someone comes flying up from behind (maybe they're going 100), what do you do? Do you stay in the left lane thinking "I'm going fast enough damn it, screw them" or do you move to the right and let them pass?
I'll always move to the right and let them pass, even if I'm going fast myself. Then I'll usually fall back a bit then match their speed hoping that if anyone gets a speeding ticket, it'll be them and not me (unless we're nabbed from behind, lol).
Coal Dragger
04-08-19, 21:05
Correct.
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 21:35
My guess is that Doc RoadRage will try to make them slow down. Because in his mind he’s the arbiter of what constitutes proper driving.
LOL. In best stoner voice, "You don't know me, man!" 😄
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 21:48
You are a road rager.
People just want to drive properly and get on with their lives, and it pisses you off to no end.
.
What pisses me off is that more and more of them seem to want to force their way into the line whether there's an opening or not. I think they call that a "New York lane change." There's nothing road rage about not wanting some jerk to potentially ram you trying to cut in line. I don't call that "getting on with their lives." I call that "unsafe driving," " lack of road etiquette," "lack of common courtesy". This area used to not have that kind of crap. Must be all the Californians moving here.😄
Diamondback
04-08-19, 21:54
Put a dummy Claymore on your trailer-hitch, maybe? :) I know *I* wouldn't wanna get too close to that...
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 21:57
I just avoid the construction when I go to that town. I thought driving in Albuquerque was bad, but Las Cruces is getting worse every time I have to go there. Give me my small town any day.
Doc, if I might suggest, you need to ease off the throttle a little bit and maybe do some stress relief stuff when you are driving.
I listen to classical music on public radio and do breathing exercises because I know that people upset me when they drive like they have no cognitive function.
I also focus on commentary driving which helps me anticipate unsafe conditions, plus makes me feel good when I am correct in anticipating them.
Works for me and I'm pretty much a jerk.
Doc Safari
04-08-19, 22:03
Doc, if I might suggest, you need to ease off the throttle a little bit and maybe do some stress relief stuff when you are driving.
.
I just need to stay away from bigger towns. I'm actually surprised at some of the responses here like you guys think this stuff is no big deal.
You know what they say about the Rat Race: "Even if you win it you're still a rat."
I guess I just don't belong in a good-sized city. I'd never be able to actually live there.
Coal Dragger
04-08-19, 23:23
I live in the sticks, and still don’t consider what happened to you to be a big deal. Even in the middle of nowhere, you can count on other drivers being morons or jerks.
We have more than a few two lane passing zones on hills that merge back to a single lane at the top. What you described happens all the time because morons want to pass, but seem clueless as to how it is accomplished. That pedal on the right is a complicated mysterious thing to them, and they pull out to pass and can’t seem to figure out what direction to move that pedal with their foot. So they dawdle, like morons, next to you all the way up the hill then at the last possible second they finally figure out what the right side pedal does and they stomp on it furiously in a last bid to get in front of you..... So that they can slow down again below your desired speed once it is single lane traffic again. As mentioned they’re stupid.
I count on them being stupid.
Once I near the top of any hill with a passing zone, or merging area of any kind with clear road ahead of me, I take note of these idiots and I make their decision for them. The most satisfying way is to roll into the throttle and put distance on them. By the time they realize what you just did, it’s too late for their last minute dick move. Works particularly well in a car with over 400hp, and less than 4500lbs to motivate. So make sure you drive a vehicle with a relatively decent power to weight ratio. You automatically eliminate their ability to pull dick moves when they literally cannot keep up with you, which in the case of a 400+hp car that is under 4500lbs will take care of 90+% of other vehicles you encounter.
What I hate is when I'm closing at +20 to a couple of semis out in the middle of nowhere on I-70 and the rear one decides to try to pass NOW- and I spend 5 min as they pass the other truck at 1-2mph takeover speed. Almost lost my mind last summer on I-80 in WY when there was on/off construction down to one lane and two trucks decided not to let anyone pass when it went up to two lanes- for the next 20 miles till the next construction... People . who say that you need to be trained how to torture someone weren't in the car with me that day when I came up with some pretty nasty things to do to that driver.
Pisses me off as well. When traveling south through Pennsylvania last year, as soon as we hit an uphill a couple of these clowns would try to pass 5 other semi's. Nobody has that kind of horsepower on an uphill. It would bring the whole interstate down to 35 mph.
Newsflash: no one wants to get stuck behind a slow-ass semi. You chose the job.....
90% of those assholes end up doing 54 in a 55 in that big line of cars and wonder why a big ass Pete is pushing them along.. but anyway, I just set the cruise and drink my coffee.
The asshats who go at or under the speed limit UNTIL you get to a passing zone piss me off. If it takes 100mph at that point to pass them I will. If they speed up to make it difficult or be cute I will cut it REAL close to their front end.
I'd like to ask one question, and the answers will say a lot about your driving demeanor: if you are in the left doing 85 on a 4-lane interstate (say 70mph limit) and someone comes flying up from behind (maybe they're going 100), what do you do? Do you stay in the left lane thinking "I'm going fast enough damn it, screw them" or do you move to the right and let them pass? My answer might surprise some of you given what I wrote above.
Should have crammed these responses into one response, but oh well.
Up here we have primarily two lane highways with passing lanes. The passing lane speeder-uppers are an epidemic up here. Just did a 500 mile round trip today and the majority of the people I passed in the passing areas jumped up 10 mph in the passing area. Then they wonder why they have four pickups and a semi on their ass for the next five miles until the next passing lane.. where it's all repeated again. When I was teaching my three kids to drive, maintaining a steady speed on the highway AND in passing areas was driven into them repeatedly... rule number one, don't be THAT asshole.
Same thing for four lane highways. I pass on the left then immediately move right when it's safe. Ditto on teaching the kids to drive.. move right and don't clog the left lane.
Averageman
04-09-19, 01:13
When I worked in Los Angeles and lived in the Valley, I often would fantasize about filling the back of an older 70's era Dodge 4x4 Power Wagon with cement and a six inch lift and just enjoying my ride home in a rather sadistic way.
When I worked in Los Angeles and lived in the Valley, I often would fantasize about filling the back of an older 70's era Dodge 4x4 Power Wagon with cement and a six inch lift and just enjoying my ride home in a rather sadistic way.
Pushing people out of the way or slowing down the whole thing? Either way I'm not sure it would have made a difference :suicide: Not sure if that run or the 10 out to the east is worse. I'm not sure how anyone likes living like that.
as we used to say if it is tourist season how come we cant shoot them :)
Should have crammed these responses into one response, but oh well.
Up here we have primarily two lane highways with passing lanes. The passing lane speeder-uppers are an epidemic up here. Just did a 500 mile round trip today and the majority of the people I passed in the passing areas jumped up 10 mph in the passing area. Then they wonder why they have four pickups and a semi on their ass for the next five miles until the next passing lane.. where it's all repeated again. When I was teaching my three kids to drive, maintaining a steady speed on the highway AND in passing areas was driven into them repeatedly... rule number one, don't be THAT asshole.
Same thing for four lane highways. I pass on the left then immediately move right when it's safe. Ditto on teaching the kids to drive.. move right and don't clog the left lane.
That is what we have here too and that happens also. Usually what I get is me doing a constant speed and the car following me speeding up just enough to get in my blind spot then stay at my speed.
What pisses me off is that more and more of them seem to want to force their way into the line whether there's an opening or not. I think they call that a "New York lane change." There's nothing road rage about not wanting some jerk to potentially ram you trying to cut in line. I don't call that "getting on with their lives." I call that "unsafe driving," " lack of road etiquette," "lack of common courtesy". This area used to not have that kind of crap. Must be all the Californians moving here.��
Its not “cutting in line”.
Its merging
You should be leaving room in front of you for 1 car to merge in.
Guy behing you should do the same
Merger should match speed and slide in seamlessly.
When people try to block people out, it causes people to slow down and then have to merge from a bear stop- that is unsafe.
Now if you have room in front, and they try to meege into you- they are just an idiot.
I guess the solution is to make drivers licensing much more difficult like Europe.
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 07:43
Its not “cutting in line”.
Its merging
You should be leaving room in front of you for 1 car to merge in.
Guy behing you should do the same
Merger should match speed and slide in seamlessly.
When people try to block people out, it causes people to slow down and then have to merge from a bear stop- that is unsafe.
Now if you have room in front, and they try to meege into you- they are just an idiot.
That's bullshit. When the sign says LEFT LANE CLOSED AHEAD and people speed up to stay in that lane until it ends so they can cut in line, that is deliberately trying to cut in ahead of the other cars. The cops should be able to write a ticket for that.
That's bullshit. When the sign says LEFT LANE CLOSED AHEAD and people speed up to stay in that lane until it ends so they can cut in line, that is deliberately trying to cut in ahead of the other cars. The cops should be able to write a ticket for that.Cutting in line? Seriously? I didn't know we had assigned order.
If his lane is open he can drive untill it's not. Nowhere does it say you have to merge X amount of distance from the closure.
That's bullshit. When the sign says LEFT LANE CLOSED AHEAD and people speed up to stay in that lane until it ends so they can cut in line, that is deliberately trying to cut in ahead of the other cars. The cops should be able to write a ticket for that.
That could be failure to yield territory depending on state law. The cynical side of me has to wonder if that isn't similar to how running stop lights/signs used to have a lower fine here, and didn't get much enforcement, versus speeding tickets which got a lot more action and a higher payout.
It is obviously annoying, but overall I don't feel like getting in a wreck or a fight over it.
MegademiC is 100% correct. It's called a "Zipper Merge" and when people play well with each other it works really well. Then you get those selfish drivers who think people should merge in as soon as they see the sign, that is what really f^cks up traffic. Don't be that guy who won't let someone in, it's a dick move and tells a lot about a person and their ego. Do you also drive right at the speed limit in the passing lane for miles and miles? I ask because those two driving behaviors seem to correlate.
I also get the feeling that if the OP was ticketed for not allowing someone to merge, he'd be on here complaining about "those revenue collecting road pirates".
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 08:42
That could be failure to yield territory depending on state law. The cynical side of me has to wonder if that isn't similar to how running stop lights/signs used to have a lower fine here, and didn't get much enforcement, versus speeding tickets which got a lot more action and a higher payout.
That's another issue. People are still racing into the intersection after the light has definitely turned red. I've watched people sit tight when the light turns green and look both ways before proceeding. I don't blame them. It's evidently that bad although I personally haven't seen it but a few times.
Adrenaline_6
04-09-19, 10:17
That's another issue. People are still racing into the intersection after the light has definitely turned red. I've watched people sit tight when the light turns green and look both ways before proceeding. I don't blame them. It's evidently that bad although I personally haven't seen it but a few times.
This be why. https://youtu.be/udng1wvYEdc
This be why. https://youtu.be/udng1wvYEdc
Well now those cars just disappeared. I always ease out into an intersection, yes that be why.
Also go ahead and change this thread’s name to Cranky Old Guy Complains About Them Youngins and Their Driving!
Bit long on the title, but after reading through, thought it fit.
Cruise control, pay attention, leave space. Let the dudes that want to fly past, fly past.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's bullshit. When the sign says LEFT LANE CLOSED AHEAD and people speed up to stay in that lane until it ends so they can cut in line, that is deliberately trying to cut in ahead of the other cars. The cops should be able to write a ticket for that.
Why? Because it's dangerous, or because it's impolite? Cops should be able to write tickets because the driver is a dick?
If he tried to cut in line on the merge, and you don't let him...which one of you is the dick?
An odd one in this region is how drivers react to ambulances with lights on versus hearses/funeral processions.
I have seen drivers cut off and sometimes 2 or 3 block in ambulances and typically the frequent offenders seem to be late 50's and up.
Conversely, I have seen people slam on their brakes, drive off the road and in to ditches(had to have caused damage), and just generally lose all rational thought over a funeral procession.
Last summer a family member passed away and gave me another front row seat to more of that. An ambulance was running lights and sirens approaching the intersection the procession was crossing. My Dad and at least 1 vehicle(fairly sure 2) in front of him cut the ambulance off at the intersection before I stopped and let them in figuring they might still have time to save someone. Later on, we met 2 cars on a very steep hill so the lady in the lead vehicle locked it up and the following vehicle slid in to her.
I've watched people sit tight when the light turns green and look both ways before proceeding. I don't blame them. It's evidently that bad although I personally haven't seen it but a few times.
A green light grants you the right-of-way, it doesn't guarantee it.
Can't tell you how often folks have told me that the left, right, left, we drilled into them during EVO has saved them an accident.
In reality a DL is just like a CCW, it grants you the right to do something you are woefully unprepared to do with sufficient expertise. Some folks expand their knowledge and performance through experience, some through additional training, and some embody the principle of '1 year of experience repeated 20 times' and never grow as a driver.
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 12:55
Why? Because it's dangerous, or because it's impolite? Cops should be able to write tickets because the driver is a dick?
The last few times I've been to town the cars in the closed lane "stack up" and then try to muscle their way into the open lane. If that weren't bad enough, the line in the open lane has been so long the last couple times I've been that people end up sitting through multiple light changes. The people butting in make that even worse. I've been to town enough times that I know about how long it takes to get through the light on a certain street, but with having to put up with buttinskis that won't simply get in line behind everyone else it adds 20-30 minutes of having to wait to get through that one light. So to answer your question I'd have to say "all of the above." Common courtesy would dictate that drivers would see the closed lane sign and join the line waiting their turn like everyone else. Instead, a lot of them zoom to the point where they can't go any further in the closed lane then try to pry their way into the open lane. I've seen many near fender benders because of that. And it makes the ones that were legitimately in the open lane first wait for the buttinskis who had no business cutting ahead in line.
I don't understand why people aren't grasping that concept.
If I see a car trying to pull into the line from a parking lot and they've been sitting there a while, I'll generally let them in, especially if they're pulling out of a fast food joint with their dinner or something. But I don't like giving a pass to the people who are trying to "game" the system.
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 13:08
Also go ahead and change this thread’s name to Cranky Old Guy Complains About Them Youngins and Their Driving!
You know, I don't mind arguing all people want, but I don't think insults are appropriate.
Averageman
04-09-19, 13:21
When I worked in Los Angeles and lived in the Valley, I often would fantasize about filling the back of an older 70's era Dodge 4x4 Power Wagon with cement and a six inch lift and just enjoying my ride home in a rather sadistic way.
Pushing people out of the way or slowing down the whole thing? Either way I'm not sure it would have made a difference :suicide: Not sure if that run or the 10 out to the east is worse. I'm not sure how anyone likes living like that.
On a good day it's a 40 minute ride in to LA from Reseda. On a bad day, getting home could take an hour and a half. I made that drive five to six days a week for almost three years.
I've seen people lose their minds at the two hour point, your brain seems to overheat as much as your vehicle does when your just sitting there.
I was told by a CHP's Officer that at that time as many as 35% of the people were driving without licence or insurance on those roads.
The last few times I've been to town the cars in the closed lane "stack up" and then try to muscle their way into the open lane. If that weren't bad enough, the line in the open lane has been so long the last couple times I've been that people end up sitting through multiple light changes. The people butting in make that even worse. I've been to town enough times that I know about how long it takes to get through the light on a certain street, but with having to put up with buttinskis that won't simply get in line behind everyone else it adds 20-30 minutes of having to wait to get through that one light. So to answer your question I'd have to say "all of the above." Common courtesy would dictate that drivers would see the closed lane sign and join the line waiting their turn like everyone else. Instead, a lot of them zoom to the point where they can't go any further in the closed lane then try to pry their way into the open lane. I've seen many near fender benders because of that. And it makes the ones that were legitimately in the open lane first wait for the buttinskis who had no business cutting ahead in line.
I don't understand why people aren't grasping that concept.
If I see a car trying to pull into the line from a parking lot and they've been sitting there a while, I'll generally let them in, especially if they're pulling out of a fast food joint with their dinner or something. But I don't like giving a pass to the people who are trying to "game" the system.
Game what system? You're on a road not in a store. So they either get behind you or they're butting in? I'm trying to understand this.
"And it makes the ones that were legitimately in the open lane first wait for the buttinskis who had no business cutting ahead in line"
so all those in the clear lane have the right of way since they were there first in line? Ok! How long does the other lane wait before it's considered not butting in? What if there's a never ending stream of cars? Surely they don't wait till the road is completely clear of all cars? Otherwise they're butting in in front of someone! If not you then the guy behind you!
As someone who lives in a "town" and doesn't just go in enough time to know I can tell you this is a constant thing. Have one road that has had a merger from two lanes to one for the last 4 years. And it's right at a light. Amazingly no one seems to have problems. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190409/eea1464ad6fc650d1fc4406d4ece3bdd.jpg
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 13:29
Game what system? You're on a road not in a store. So they either get behind you or they're butting in? I'm trying to understand this.
Let me explain it this way. If you were in a fairly fast checkout line at Wal Mart, and a guy in the adjacent, slower line butted in front of you to check out before you, would you appreciate it?
I know you're going to say it's not the same thing, but to me it's exactly the same thing. EXACTLY.
Let me explain it this way. If you were in a fairly fast checkout line at Wal Mart, and a guy in the adjacent, slower line butted in front of you to check out before you, would you appreciate it?
I know you're going to say it's not the same thing, but to me it's exactly the same thing. EXACTLY.In that case those cars in the other lane have to wait till ALL cars have gone by! So in a busy area at a busy time of day those in the other lane can potentially be waiting for a long long time. Meanwhile more cars add up from the back and create traffic all to wait for your lane to go by
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 13:38
In that case those cars in the other lane have to wait till ALL cars have gone by! So in a busy area at a busy time of day those in the other lane can potentially be waiting for a long long time. Meanwhile more cars add up from the back and create traffic all to wait for your lane to go by
Sucks to be them, I know. But yeah, in a perfect world. And that's why they don't do it.
militarymoron
04-09-19, 13:45
MegademiC is 100% correct. It's called a "Zipper Merge" and when people play well with each other it works really well.
Maybe an article and some diagrams will help: https://auto.howstuffworks.com/traffic-lane-zipper-merge.htm
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 13:48
Maybe an article and some diagrams will help: https://auto.howstuffworks.com/traffic-lane-zipper-merge.htm
So some states are encouraging the behavior I can't stand?
It's getting so a person just can't win.
Let me explain it this way. If you were in a fairly fast checkout line at Wal Mart, and a guy in the adjacent, slower line butted in front of you to check out before you, would you appreciate it?
I know you're going to say it's not the same thing, but to me it's exactly the same thing. EXACTLY.
You're right, that would be really rude. It would piss me off. So what? What do you do about it? It's not illegal, so you can't (shouldn't) call 911. Honk your horn incessantly? Do you cut him off? Do you smash into him? Do you get out of the car so you can beat the shit out of him? Pull your gun? Shoot him? (All of these things happen every day, and some of it really ruins several peoples' lives). Or do you just accept the fact that the guy's an asshole, man up, shrug it off, and calmly go on with your day?
No offense, but I'm getting a kind of road-rage-waiting-to-happen vibe from the conversation.....
Adrenaline_6
04-09-19, 13:53
Let me explain it this way. If you were in a fairly fast checkout line at Wal Mart, and a guy in the adjacent, slower line butted in front of you to check out before you, would you appreciate it?
I know you're going to say it's not the same thing, but to me it's exactly the same thing. EXACTLY.
It really isn't though. To make it closer in comparison, the other guy was in the fact checkout lane, the checkout counter guy in that lane closed the lane and told everyone to move over to your lane alternating (like a zipper) in the same order at the time when the lane was closed. If one or 2 doofus' in front of that guy got behind you instead of taking the rightful place in the right order ahead of you, it isn't that guys fault if he tries to get in front of you if that is what place the "zipper" would have put him anyway.
You know, I don't mind arguing all people want, but I don't think insults are appropriate.
Wasn’t meant to be an insult. It was meant as a joke. Subtleness is lost in text communication.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 13:56
Or do you just accept the fact that the guy's an asshole, man up, shrug it off, and calmly go on with your day?
Pretty much. And read the post above where some states are actually encouraging what they call the "zipper merge." I'm basically whipped, beaten, can't fight city hall on this one. I felt better after the rant, though.
No offense, but I'm getting a kind of road-rage-waiting-to-happen vibe from the conversation.....
I don't know where you're getting that. I bend over backwards to be law abiding. Not that I would cry if two idiots trying to merge ran into each other, but I wouldn't step outside the law over something like this. I reserve the right to flip the bird to someone who nearly hits my truck trying to merge, though.
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 14:00
It really isn't though. To make it closer in comparison, the other guy was in the fact checkout lane, the checkout counter guy in that lane closed the lane and told everyone to move over to your lane alternating (like a zipper) in the same order at the time when the lane was closed. If one or 2 doofus' in front of that guy got behind you instead of taking the rightful place in the right order ahead of you, it isn't that guys fault if he tries to get in front of you if that is what place the "zipper" would have put him anyway.
I still think in your scenario it would be rude. In all actuality I'd probably tell the guy, "Go ahead you were here first." But if he tries to butt in nearly ramming my shopping cart I'd be just as pissed as if he nearly rammed my truck trying to butt in front of me at a traffic light.
I've gotten where I'll just go miles out of my way to avoid construction zones when I visit Las Cruces. Trouble is there are so many construction zones anymore that they might as well rename the town "Construction, New Mexico."
grizzlyblake
04-09-19, 14:01
I have a stretch of highway that does exactly this that I drive every morning.
Guaranteed every day I see at least two hall monitors who create all sorts of drama by standing on their brake and gas pedal to stay 6" from the car in front of them to keep the gap closed while also attempting to block the other lane by straddling both lanes.
I have a stretch of highway that does exactly this that I drive every morning.
Guaranteed every day I see at least two hall monitors who create all sorts of drama by standing on their brake and gas pedal to stay 6" from the car in front of them to keep the gap closed while also attempting to block the other lane by straddling both lanes.
I drive through 2 school zones everyday so I get high school kids being a road block at the base of a hill so their buddy they see topping the hill can make a left once they get there. Not too many of those moves gets a solid wall of cars started.
militarymoron
04-09-19, 14:13
So some states are encouraging the behavior I can't stand?
It's getting so a person just can't win.
They're encouraging everyone to understand the most efficient way of merging; not condoning ass-hat behaviour. Say there are two lines at the checkout counter that merge into one line with one checkstand. It's your fault if you automatically pick the longer line. Everyone approaching the two lines is supposed to pick the shorter one, which shouldn't be much shorter, so that the two lines end up being about equal, and the persons at the front of each line alternately step up to the check stand.
What I do have an issue with is people illegally driving on the shoulder of the road to bypass lines and cut back in, which I've seen.
Sucks to be them, I know. But yeah, in a perfect world. And that's why they don't do it.No. It's a merge not a stop and wait
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 14:18
It's your fault if you automatically pick the longer line.
This is the part I don't like. Everybody's got to merge sooner or later. The people who pick the longer (open) line are doing what everyone eventually has to do. The people who pick the shorter (line that's closed up ahead) are penalizing the early mergers by butting in front of their place in line.
Sounds like from your link, though, that the people who write the traffic rules prefer it that way.
So in practical reality, you'd be better off to be one of the buttinskis because the law is on your side.
militarymoron
04-09-19, 14:23
This is the part I don't like. Everybody's got to merge sooner or later. The people who pick the longer (open) line are doing what everyone eventually has to do. The people who pick the shorter (line that's closed up ahead) are penalizing the early mergers by butting in front of their place in line.
Sounds like from your link, though, that the people who write the traffic rules prefer it that way.
And that's the problem - there isn't supposed to be a shorter line. They're supposed to be about equal. One line of ten cars takes up more length of road than two lines of five cars. The longer line is more likely to block driveways, back up into the previous intersection etc. The ones who get in the back of the longer line are not making the most efficient use of the available road space.
This is the part I don't like. Everybody's got to merge sooner or later. The people who pick the longer (open) line are doing what everyone eventually has to do. The people who pick the shorter (line that's closed up ahead) are penalizing the early mergers by butting in front of their place in line.
Sounds like from your link, though, that the people who write the traffic rules prefer it that way.
So in practical reality, you'd be better off to be one of the buttinskis because the law is on your side.Assuming you can see why one is slower. What if the longer line is because they're slowing down due to police activity on the shoulder, rubber necking a car accident, or any number of other possibilities besides a lane closure
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 14:26
And that's the problem - there isn't supposed to be a shorter line. They're supposed to be about equal. One line of ten cars takes up more length of road than two lines of five cars. The longer line is more likely to block driveways, back up into the previous intersection etc.
Yeah, that's not the way I've seen it happen. There's one long empty lane that people know is closed up ahead, and one long full lane of cars slowly moving forward.
So here come three or four cars that zoom to the front of the empty lane, then either wait for a person in the full lane to let them in, or they try the proverbial "New York Lane Change" and move into the full lane with the attitude "you can let me in or I'll dent your car."
What we have can't really be called "merging". It's more like "hijacking", as in "hijacking a place in line."
But, people around here don't know how to drive. Period. Watch them drive when it's raining or snowing and you'll realize this.
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 14:27
Assuming you can see why one is slower. What if the longer line is because they're slowing down due to police activity on the shoulder, rubber necking a car accident, or any number of other possibilities besides a lane closure
Well, we're not talking about the "temporary" situation, which does happen. Sorry if my statements were taken to be blanket pronouncements. I'm complaining about the construction zones that have been up for over a year and it's the same cluster fudge every time I go to town. You'd think after all that time people would know how to drive in a construction zone.
Adrenaline_6
04-09-19, 14:30
But, people around here don't know how to drive. Period. Watch them drive when it's raining or snowing and you'll realize this.
It's not just where your at. I swear some people think water has the properties of oil.
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 14:31
It's not just where your at. I swear some people think water has the properties of oil.
LOL. We make the joke around here that we got six feet of rain. Six feet between drops, that is.
And people see one little raindrop and try to race home to beat the storm.
militarymoron
04-09-19, 14:35
Yeah, that's not the way I've seen it happen. There's one long empty lane that people know is closed up ahead, and one long full lane of cars slowly moving forward.
Yup, I've seen that before. Maybe people just need to be understand how it's supposed to be done. It's also how we've been conditioned.
Reminds me of a guy who was standing behind me in line, while I was waiting to buy a ticket for an event. We chatted for a while as the line inched forward, and I mentioned something about tickets. He said 'I already have my ticket - I thought this was the line to get in!'. I said 'Nope, it's the line to buy tickets'. As he stepped out of line he explained how he had just assumed it was the line to get in; he had been needlessly waiting much longer than needed. The people who go directly to the back of the longest line of cars just think it's the polite thing to do, even if it may not be the correct/efficient way.
Here's a good way to think about it:
ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate-school mountain, but there in the sandpile at Sunday School. These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don’t hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don’t take things that aren’t yours.
Say you’re sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life—learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out into the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands, and stick together.
Wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup—they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned—the biggest word of all—LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.
How to merge is in there somewhere.
nobody likes traffic cams :)
BUT if they had these in construction zones with a huge sign ever other car !!! no zooming ahead past this point IF you speed ahead or IF you do not let the next car in you will receive a $200 fine ?
would be curious how many quit being jerks by speeding ahead or cutting off ?
when I worked the boats on Maui we would go out to Molokini some here might have experienced this
we would bring the pax from one part (sign in) over to the boat to load all at once to keep them away from cars and loading vehicles etc.. and sure enough every day a few folks would cut the line ?
I would see it and go up and make a smile joke and say ya know the boat leaves the dock at the same time so cutting in front of those folks was not only rude but wont help you leave sooner !
the usual response was I want a good seat ?
I would say you are going on a snorkel/dive cruise why would you want to SIT when you can walk around enjoy and move around ? then snorkel
shake my head and walk off
reckon those are the same idiots that do that to you on a cruise on the road in disneyland etc..
jerks are jerks
Doc Safari
04-09-19, 17:09
nobody likes traffic cams :)
BUT if they had these in construction zones with a huge sign ever other car !!! no zooming ahead past this point IF you speed ahead or IF you do not let the next car in you will receive a $200 fine ?
You know, that's not a bad idea, but it gives me an idea that might work better. They'll never do it, though, due to the expense. All it would take is a traffic cop or dadgum school crossing guard directing traffic and the "zipper merge" would be a smooth thing that everybody could live with.
So some states are encouraging the behavior I can't stand?
It's getting so a person just can't win.
Its the law in PA
Edit: I guess the law is you dont need to, but should:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ydr.com/amp/722443001
Here's a good way to think about it:
ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate-school mountain, but there in the sandpile at Sunday School. These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don’t hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don’t take things that aren’t yours.
Say you’re sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life—learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out into the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands, and stick together.
Wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup—they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned—the biggest word of all—LOOK.
Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.
How to merge is in there somewhere.
Robert Fulghum....read that for a class in 89
Yes, indeed. Should have attributed it.
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