Rings Too Tight?

[Dr. Bullseye]

In re-ringing my bolt with BCM rings, hey, they are tight. They go in fine and stand up for me but they will not snap out with a wrist motion. Is this normal for new rings?

[Eurodriver]

Yes that’s completely normal.

Enjoy the new rings.

[Iraqgunz]

Yes, and flicking the wrist is not some type of standard.

[themonk]

Normal. Shoot it and they will loosen up

[vicious_cb]

They're virgin rings, of course they are going to be tight. Lube and running them hard should loosen them up.

[themonk]

They're virgin rings, of course they are going to be tight. Lube and running them hard should loosen them up.

Pretty good advice for anything virgin

[Dr. Bullseye]

Thanks guys.

[MQ105]

Good advice, except for the lube. Don't lube gas rings.

[vicious_cb]

Good advice, except for the lube. Don't lube gas rings.

So if you lube the inside of your bolt carrier how do you not get any on your gas rings?

[Iraqgunz]

You use a magical incantation to keep the lube away.


So if you lube the inside of your bolt carrier how do you not get any on your gas rings?

[Circle_10]

I've had new gas rings that were so tight that the gun wouldn't go into battery on an empty chamber if I closed the bolt slowly (which you'd never do when actually chambering a round anyway), and once when after changing the rings the bolt wouldn't even fit back into the carrier until I'd basically doused everything with Slip EWL.
They loosen up pretty quickly with firing though.

[mark5pt56]

I think we need hand lapped gas rings, hmmm---

[Dr. Bullseye]

Forgive me since I have been laboring under the analogy of automobile rings, but why would someone NOT lube the rings on the AR?

[MistWolf]

Doc, the proper way to lube an AR is to place a few drops of oil in the exhaust ports of the carrier. That right there tells you all you need to know when you hear "Don't lube the gas rings!"

[RVTMaverick]

LOL ... YEP!



Doc, the proper way to lube an AR is to place a few drops of oil in the exhaust ports of the carrier. That right there tells you all you need to know when you hear "Don't lube the gas rings!"

[TomMcC]

Pretty much anything that rubs against each other metal wise should be getting a bit of lube...the RE excluded, but some might and do.

[MQ105]

They're virgin rings, of course they are going to be tight. Lube and running them hard should loosen them up.


Pretty good advice for anything virgin


Good advice, except for the lube. Don't lube gas rings.


I guess the innuendo didn't translate...

[Dr. Bullseye]

Doc, the proper way to lube an AR is to place a few drops of oil in the exhaust ports of the carrier. That right there tells you all you need to know when you hear "Don't lube the gas rings!"

What is the difference between putting oil directly on the rings or putting the oil in the exhaust ports where it contacts the rings anyway?

[26 Inf]

What is the difference between putting oil directly on the rings or putting the oil in the exhaust ports where it contacts the rings anyway?

Doc - Your good.

Here is what the masters of mil-spec, the U.S. Army says about the subject:

071-100-0004 (SL1) - Maintain an M4 or M4A1 Carbine

5 c (4) Generously lube outside the bolt body, bolt rings, and cam pin area.

[Eurodriver]

Our armorers would walk by and ask us to pull the bolt carrier back about an inch and then spray CLP out of a big squirt bottle multiple times directly on to the rings.

We all died because our weapons malfunctioned.

[Milspec78]

I have been putting a couple of drops of oil on the same set of rings for at least 5,000-6,000 rounds,I am still impressed by the seal they provide given the round count,but i’m Not the torture test type...my guns are coddled(meaning they are cleaned and lubed after every trip out)

[MistWolf]

What is the difference between putting oil directly on the rings or putting the oil in the exhaust ports where it contacts the rings anyway?

None.

[26 Inf]

Our armorers would walk by and ask us to pull the bolt carrier back about an inch and then spray CLP out of a big squirt bottle multiple times directly on to the rings.

We all died because our weapons malfunctioned.

Well, sure that's because lubing the rings was from an Army TM, and it is bad juju for a Marine to do anything IAW Army instructions. I know this because I've been in both branches. For instance, during jump school they taught us the Army way to do PLF's. Eff that, I'm a Marine, got the tat and everything, I just closed my eyes and waited until I stopped moving.

Unlike you, I'm still alive and posting here. Why? Because I did things the Marine way.

In fact, the only Army training that I ever did everything the way they (the Army) said to do it was the Pathfinder Course. And that was only because we made these way cool maps with plastic on them and they let us color on them. As you and the lady from HK know, Marines love to color. We used pens that if you got outside the lines, you just used alcohol to make the bo bo disappear. It was fun.

It was like Marine Heaven, only with Army guys running the show.

[Iraqgunz]

True story. I put lube on my gas rings once and I was almost killt in a firefight from the bolt having excess lube. Shit starting slipping on me like the tranny of a 1959 F-100.

[Dr. Bullseye]

Here is an Army film about cleaning an lubing the M16 A2. Go to the 11:47 mark and see how they recommend lubing the BCG and then the bolt. They spray CLP on them and then wipe them off. The residual oil left on there is all the lube you need in their opinion (at least at that time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HXFobzhJdo

[Dr. Bullseye]

True story. I put lube on my gas rings once and I was almost killt in a firefight from the bolt having excess lube. Shit starting slipping on me like the tranny of a 1959 F-100.

So you are saying directly lubricating the rings results in over lubrication which can lead to malfunction, right?

[hk_shootr]

Here is an Army film about cleaning an lubing the M16 A2. Go to the 11:47 mark and see how they recommend lubing the BCG and then the bolt. They spray CLP on them and then wipe them off. The residual oil left on there is all the lube you need in their opinion (at least at that time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HXFobzhJdo


Is a 7+ year old CATM video even relevant?

Oh, and its a AIR FORCE film

[flenna]

I thought ARs were self-lubricating?

[arptsprt]

Um, I’m pretty certain IG is employing a technique called sarcasm.


So you are saying directly lubricating the rings results in over lubrication which can lead to malfunction, right?




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[Eurodriver]

True story. I put lube on my gas rings once and I was almost killt in a firefight from the bolt having excess lube. Shit starting slipping on me like the tranny of a 1959 F-100.

Heh.

You said....

Tranny.

[T2C]

True story. I put lube on my gas rings once and I was almost killt in a firefight from the bolt having excess lube. Shit starting slipping on me like the tranny of a 1959 F-100.

What color F-100?

[Circle_10]

I thought ARs were self-lubricating?

Yes, but technically that was only the original run of Mattel-produced guns supplied to Delta Force and Father Ho during Project AGUILERA. The Colt made guns were well documented as "gumming" up due to the humid tropical air in Vietnam because the weak phosphating on the internals allowed the moisture to infuse the metal and induce catastrophic hydrolocistic locking malfunctions. SOP at the end of every mission was to use dry rice to draw the moisture out of the rifles. So these guns needed frequent and attentive maintenance to keep working. This vulnerability incidentally, is why DPMS, who specs parts that exceed the TDP as standard, became a popular COTS option for Tier One units operating in wet jungular climes.
I'm just saying...

[Dr. Bullseye]

Yes, but technically that was only the original run of Mattel-produced guns supplied to Delta Force and Father Ho during Project AGUILERA. The Colt made guns were well documented as "gumming" up due to the humid tropical air in Vietnam because the weak phosphating on the internals allowed the moisture to infuse the metal and induce catastrophic hydrolocistic locking malfunctions. SOP at the end of every mission was to use dry rice to draw the moisture out of the rifles. So these guns needed frequent and attentive maintenance to keep working. This vulnerability incidentally, is why DPMS, who specs parts that exceed the TDP as standard, became a popular COTS option for Tier One units operating in wet jungular climes.
I'm just saying...

I never heard a chemistry analysis of what happened before. Maybe this is off topic but I wish you would elaborate here or elsewhere.

[MistWolf]

I never heard a chemistry analysis of what happened before. Maybe this is off topic but I wish you would elaborate here or elsewhere.

...I can't believe you typed that with a straight face...

[Eurodriver]

And someone complained in the site questions forum that M4C post quality has gone downhill.

Circle 10 is dropping big facts!

[Dr. Bullseye]

...I can't believe you typed that with a straight face...

Oh, OK, maybe you can explain to me how phosphate draws moisture out of the air?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygroscopy

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphate

Have at it.

[Circle_10]

I never heard a chemistry analysis of what happened before. Maybe this is off topic but I wish you would elaborate here or elsewhere.

Uh......
Okay.....
So Hydrolocistic lock is the first step in a multi-tiered process called Bolt Group Encruddenation. So basically when you have the original 5.56 loading - M193 55gr FMJ (Full Mattel Jacket), which used slick powder the lubricity was conferred upon the operating parameters of the kinetic components to ensure autonomous slipperation at all stages of the operation cycle. There were three types of slick powder produced by Mattel for the early Type 601 M16s. Of the three, the BAR-B type exhibited the most points of articulation.
However, BAR-B slick powder was mildly corrosive. When Colt took over production of the M16 rifle, they engaged in, shall we say, "certain cost cutting measures". Among them was to implement a milder phosbate across all production lines. BAR-B slick powder will corrode Colt phosbate bolts within 400 rounds unless the gun is lubricated thoroughly or the gun is packed in dessicants between deployments. However the Colt produced guns were presumed by issuing authorities to have the same self-lubricating qualities as their predecessors. Hence the myth of the self-lubricating M16, a myth, which unfortunately persists to this day in at least three major departments - Defense, Homeland Security, and the DCMP.
Now, where gas rings come in is this: only toward the end of the lubrication cycle do the rings engage with the locking recesses. So obviously this presents problems with ejaculation of the spend cases. This is why there are two school of thought on ring lube. School one says Yes. School two says No. The reasons however are much more in depth than you might think. As it turns out, a dry ring can actually enhance the stroking effect of the carrier. But there's a "but" here. Hydrolocistic locking can manifest at any point, due to humidification transfer. So oiled rings inhibit this, but oil can contribute to ring erosion, usually within ,as few as fiive magazines. So in high round count mission profiles it is often preferable to keep your gas rings unlubed. Either that or use a carrier left "in the white" - which is less probe to corrosion than Colt Phosbate - with sufficient
inverse rotational "flex" in the gas key to allow venting of excess moisture.

[flenna]

Uh......
Okay.....
So Hydrolocistic lock is the first step in a multi-tiered process called Bolt Group Encruddenation. So basically when you have the original 5.56 loading - M193 55gr FMJ (Full Mattel Jacket), which used slick powder the lubricity was conferred upon the operating parameters of the kinetic components to ensure autonomous slipperation at all stages of the operation cycle. There were three types of slick powder produced by Mattel for the early Type 601 M16s. Of the three, the BAR-B type exhibited the most points of articulation.
However, BAR-B slick powder was mildly corrosive. When Colt took over production of the M16 rifle, they engaged in, shall we say, "certain cost cutting measures". Among them was to implement a milder phosbate across all production lines. BAR-B slick powder will corrode Colt phosbate bolts within 400 rounds unless the gun is lubricated thoroughly or the gun is packed in dessicants between deployments. However the Colt produced guns were presumed by issuing authorities to have the same self-lubricating qualities as their predecessors. Hence the myth of the self-lubricating M16, a myth, which unfortunately persists to this day in at least three major departments - Defense, Homeland Security, and the DCMP.
Now, where gas rings come in is this: only toward the end of the lubrication cycle do the rings engage with the locking recesses. So obviously this presents problems with ejaculation of the spend cases. This is why there are two school of thought on ring lube. School one says Yes. School two says No. The reasons however are much more in depth than you might think. As it turns out, a dry ring can actually enhance the stroking effect of the carrier. But there's a "but" here. Hydrolocistic locking can manifest at any point, due to humidification transfer. So oiled rings inhibit this, but oil can contribute to ring erosion, usually within ,as few as fiive magazines. So in high round count mission profiles it is often preferable to keep your gas rings unlubed. Either that or use a carrier left "in the white" - which is less probe to corrosion than Colt Phosbate - with sufficient
inverse rotational "flex" in the gas key to allow venting of excess moisture.

This is awesome. I learn something new everyday here. Can you break down the modularity of the self lubricating rings’ interaction with the original non-coated BCG?

[Dr. Bullseye]

Uh......
Okay.....
So Hydrolocistic lock is the first step in a multi-tiered process called Bolt Group Encruddenation. So basically when you have the original 5.56 loading - M193 55gr FMJ (Full Mattel Jacket), which used slick powder the lubricity was conferred upon the operating parameters of the kinetic components to ensure autonomous slipperation at all stages of the operation cycle. There were three types of slick powder produced by Mattel for the early Type 601 M16s. Of the three, the BAR-B type exhibited the most points of articulation.
However, BAR-B slick powder was mildly corrosive. When Colt took over production of the M16 rifle, they engaged in, shall we say, "certain cost cutting measures". Among them was to implement a milder phosbate across all production lines. BAR-B slick powder will corrode Colt phosbate bolts within 400 rounds unless the gun is lubricated thoroughly or the gun is packed in dessicants between deployments. However the Colt produced guns were presumed by issuing authorities to have the same self-lubricating qualities as their predecessors. Hence the myth of the self-lubricating M16, a myth, which unfortunately persists to this day in at least three major departments - Defense, Homeland Security, and the DCMP.
Now, where gas rings come in is this: only toward the end of the lubrication cycle do the rings engage with the locking recesses. So obviously this presents problems with ejaculation of the spend cases. This is why there are two school of thought on ring lube. School one says Yes. School two says No. The reasons however are much more in depth than you might think. As it turns out, a dry ring can actually enhance the stroking effect of the carrier. But there's a "but" here. Hydrolocistic locking can manifest at any point, due to humidification transfer. So oiled rings inhibit this, but oil can contribute to ring erosion, usually within ,as few as fiive magazines. So in high round count mission profiles it is often preferable to keep your gas rings unlubed. Either that or use a carrier left "in the white" - which is less probe to corrosion than Colt Phosbate - with sufficient
inverse rotational "flex" in the gas key to allow venting of excess moisture.

Thank you very much for providing us with your knowledge. That is what I call an answer. This answers the mystery and questions about the "two schools of thought". Forgive me for not wanting to let you go but what about other non-mil spec powder such as that being used in Tula and Wolf? Some people say using these ammos causes corrosion, filth and failure. Others say no, it is fine. I am afraid to use any chemistry not sanctioned by Stoner, let alone the steel and perhaps wear on the extractor but as you see, I don't know that much. Do you have any comments about Tula and Wolf propellant powder?

[ViniVidivici]

Wow, this thread went full sarcasta-ball.

[TomMcC]

Neck deep in the rings lube-fu.

[3 AE]

OMFG!!! Excuse me while I go the TOS to take a breather. I'm laughing so hard, I'm crying! :lol::cray:

[jpmuscle]

Uh......
Okay.....
So Hydrolocistic lock is the first step in a multi-tiered process called Bolt Group Encruddenation. So basically when you have the original 5.56 loading - M193 55gr FMJ (Full Mattel Jacket), which used slick powder the lubricity was conferred upon the operating parameters of the kinetic components to ensure autonomous slipperation at all stages of the operation cycle. There were three types of slick powder produced by Mattel for the early Type 601 M16s. Of the three, the BAR-B type exhibited the most points of articulation.
However, BAR-B slick powder was mildly corrosive. When Colt took over production of the M16 rifle, they engaged in, shall we say, "certain cost cutting measures". Among them was to implement a milder phosbate across all production lines. BAR-B slick powder will corrode Colt phosbate bolts within 400 rounds unless the gun is lubricated thoroughly or the gun is packed in dessicants between deployments. However the Colt produced guns were presumed by issuing authorities to have the same self-lubricating qualities as their predecessors. Hence the myth of the self-lubricating M16, a myth, which unfortunately persists to this day in at least three major departments - Defense, Homeland Security, and the DCMP.
Now, where gas rings come in is this: only toward the end of the lubrication cycle do the rings engage with the locking recesses. So obviously this presents problems with ejaculation of the spend cases. This is why there are two school of thought on ring lube. School one says Yes. School two says No. The reasons however are much more in depth than you might think. As it turns out, a dry ring can actually enhance the stroking effect of the carrier. But there's a "but" here. Hydrolocistic locking can manifest at any point, due to humidification transfer. So oiled rings inhibit this, but oil can contribute to ring erosion, usually within ,as few as fiive magazines. So in high round count mission profiles it is often preferable to keep your gas rings unlubed. Either that or use a carrier left "in the white" - which is less probe to corrosion than Colt Phosbate - with sufficient
inverse rotational "flex" in the gas key to allow venting of excess moisture.

Lol.... you said ejaculation


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[MistWolf]

"You said ejaculation!" jpmuscle ejaculated.

[Circle_10]

This is awesome. I learn something new everyday here. Can you break down the modularity of the self lubricating rings’ interaction with the original non-coated BCG?

The rings have the ability to induce modularity at twelve different points of the bolt stroke, thirteen if you count the auto-rotational drift of the counter recoil mechanisms, however that is open to debate.
Regarding untreated carrier steel, it has been shown that phosbating actually ruptures the outermost layer of steel. "Layer?" You ask? Well yes, BCGs are actually comprised of multiple layers of hyper-compacted steel, rather like an onion. When the other layer is phosbated (originally done so as to not reflect light during ambushes, because SOP in the field is to leave the port door open to allow better venting of humidity, as well as faster exit of ejaculated cases. The early chrome carriers were found to have led to US casualties for this very reason).
Because of the stresses exerted on the carrier by the rings when cycling on autofire, a phosbated carrier, with it's weakened outer "skin" will fail much sooner into it's service life than steel in the white....but, it doesn't reflect light so readily, so it is a trade off. This is why phosbated carriers are still popular on night ops, despite their obvious shortcomings.


Thank you very much for providing us with your knowledge. That is what I call an answer. This answers the mystery and questions about the "two schools of thought". Forgive me for not wanting to let you go but what about other non-mil spec powder such as that being used in Tula and Wolf? Some people say using these ammos causes corrosion, filth and failure. Others say no, it is fine. I am afraid to use any chemistry not sanctioned by Stoner, let alone the steel and perhaps wear on the extractor but as you see, I don't know that much. Do you have any comments about Tula and Wolf propellant powder?

The controversy over Russian powder is both deep and wide. As you noted, there are many conflicted viewpoints over these powders and how they collude with the operating system. My personal view is that these Russian powders work fine, but are relatively archaic, at least a generation behind even the original Mattel BAR-B powder. There is some evidence to suggest, mostly from Green Berets forced to use Russian 5.56 during deep cover ops, that the powder accelerates wear on phosbated carriers, but this is a shortcomings in carrier production, not powders, as a quality weapon should be able to utilize indigenous loadings without issue. Extraction issues can occur but this can be mitigated with one of the new rare-earth magnetic extractors being fielded now.
The lower velocities the Russian powders confer on the kinetic component of the cartridge actually results in unique wound ballistics as well. Moving more slowly, the bullet takes longer to travel through tissue, thus causing a longer pain impulse and having greater psychological effect on the enemy than if they were shot by a supposedly superior "western" 5.56 projectile. This makes Russian 5.56 actually superior for operational parameters specifying "less lethal" force, as enemies can be shot in the legs or arms, and the resulting "slow pain" will yield enhanced compliance.

[Dr. Bullseye]

Thank you Circle 10 very much.

[grizzlyblake]

The controversy over Russian powder is both deep and wide. As you noted, there are many conflicted viewpoints over these powders and how they collude with the operating system. My personal view is that these Russian powders work fine, but are relatively archaic, at least a generation behind even the original Mattel BAR-B powder. There is some evidence to suggest, mostly from Green Berets forced to use Russian 5.56 during deep cover ops, that the powder accelerates wear on phosbated carriers, but this is a shortcomings in carrier production, not powders, as a quality weapon should be able to utilize indigenous loadings without issue. Extraction issues can occur but this can be mitigated with one of the new rare-earth magnetic extractors being fielded now.
The lower velocities the Russian powders confer on the kinetic component of the cartridge actually results in unique wound ballistics as well. Moving more slowly, the bullet takes longer to travel through tissue, thus causing a longer pain impulse and having greater psychological effect on the enemy than if they were shot by a supposedly superior "western" 5.56 projectile. This makes Russian 5.56 actually superior for operational parameters specifying "less lethal" force, as enemies can be shot in the legs or arms, and the resulting "slow pain" will yield enhanced compliance.

Very good stuff here. However, you forgot to address that the Russian 5.56 is calibrated to work with mil reticles as it is actually a metric system powder with European phallurgy in the bullet and case metal, while American .223 is calibrated in MOA due to the American powder, and phallurgy of the bullet and case metal. This becomes important when setting battle zero because Russian 5.56 must be zeroed using mil reticles at a set distance of meters, while American .223 is calibrated for MOA at a set distance of yards.

You'll have to do your own research but I've read that this factor was what drove Glock to move their American production facility to Smyrna, GA once they landed all the contracts with US LE agencies. The manufacturing specs of the American Glocks are actually tuned for American 9mm ammo specs while the European Glocks likewise are tuned for the European 9mm ammo.

[donlapalma]

There is some seriously deep technical knowledge being laid down in this thread. Any more and we might have to start calling for the "sticky".

[TomMcC]

I'm getting a swelling, itching brain from the whole things.

[Dr. Bullseye]

I don't have a printer so I'm going to the library and print out Circle 10's posts from this thread for my AR 15 hard copy file. Because of his input, I am going to be doing a couple things differently and so in the future, if I begin to question myself as to why, I can look back, quickly, at what brought me to these changes.

[grizzman]

I'm curious what changes the info posted from Circle 10 has caused you to potentially implement. We're certainly never too old to learn and adjust our practices.

[Eurodriver]

“The rings have the ability to induce modularity at twelve different points of the bolt stroke, thirteen if you count the auto-rotational drift of the counter recoil mechanisms...” - Circle 10



This is why I come to M4C

[RobertTheTexan]

Here is an Army film about cleaning an lubing the M16 A2. Go to the 11:47 mark and see how they recommend lubing the BCG and then the bolt. They spray CLP on them and then wipe them off. The residual oil left on there is all the lube you need in their opinion (at least at that time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HXFobzhJdo

Don’t do that. You’ll put your eye out.


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[RobertTheTexan]

Uh......
Okay.....
So Hydrolocistic lock is the first step in a multi-tiered process called Bolt Group Encruddenation. So basically when you have the original 5.56 loading - M193 55gr FMJ (Full Mattel Jacket), which used slick powder the lubricity was conferred upon the operating parameters of the kinetic components to ensure autonomous slipperation at all stages of the operation cycle. There were three types of slick powder produced by Mattel for the early Type 601 M16s. Of the three, the BAR-B type exhibited the most points of articulation.
However, BAR-B slick powder was mildly corrosive. When Colt took over production of the M16 rifle, they engaged in, shall we say, "certain cost cutting measures". Among them was to implement a milder phosbate across all production lines. BAR-B slick powder will corrode Colt phosbate bolts within 400 rounds unless the gun is lubricated thoroughly or the gun is packed in dessicants between deployments. However the Colt produced guns were presumed by issuing authorities to have the same self-lubricating qualities as their predecessors. Hence the myth of the self-lubricating M16, a myth, which unfortunately persists to this day in at least three major departments - Defense, Homeland Security, and the DCMP.
Now, where gas rings come in is this: only toward the end of the lubrication cycle do the rings engage with the locking recesses. So obviously this presents problems with ejaculation of the spend cases. This is why there are two school of thought on ring lube. School one says Yes. School two says No. The reasons however are much more in depth than you might think. As it turns out, a dry ring can actually enhance the stroking effect of the carrier. But there's a "but" here. Hydrolocistic locking can manifest at any point, due to humidification transfer. So oiled rings inhibit this, but oil can contribute to ring erosion, usually within ,as few as fiive magazines. So in high round count mission profiles it is often preferable to keep your gas rings unlubed. Either that or use a carrier left "in the white" - which is less probe to corrosion than Colt Phosbate - with sufficient
inverse rotational "flex" in the gas key to allow venting of excess moisture.

This is the best post I’ve ever read in my life or st minimum the last several weeks. Doc Safari, remove your M4C red dot from your safe queen and ship it immediately to Circle_10.



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[jpmuscle]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190413/1cfc771a8165a72f17399e32a09c1e6c.jpg


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[RobertTheTexan]

The rings have the ability to induce modularity at twelve different points of the bolt stroke, thirteen if you count the auto-rotational drift of the counter recoil mechanisms, however that is open to debate.
Regarding untreated carrier steel, it has been shown that phosbating actually ruptures the outermost layer of steel. "Layer?" You ask? Well yes, BCGs are actually comprised of multiple layers of hyper-compacted steel, rather like an onion. When the other layer is phosbated (originally done so as to not reflect light during ambushes, because SOP in the field is to leave the port door open to allow better venting of humidity, as well as faster exit of ejaculated cases. The early chrome carriers were found to have led to US casualties for this very reason).
Because of the stresses exerted on the carrier by the rings when cycling on autofire, a phosbated carrier, with it's weakened outer "skin" will fail much sooner into it's service life than steel in the white....but, it doesn't reflect light so readily, so it is a trade off. This is why phosbated carriers are still popular on night ops, despite their obvious shortcomings.



The controversy over Russian powder is both deep and wide. As you noted, there are many conflicted viewpoints over these powders and how they collude with the operating system. My personal view is that these Russian powders work fine, but are relatively archaic, at least a generation behind even the original Mattel BAR-B powder. There is some evidence to suggest, mostly from Green Berets forced to use Russian 5.56 during deep cover ops, that the powder accelerates wear on phosbated carriers, but this is a shortcomings in carrier production, not powders, as a quality weapon should be able to utilize indigenous loadings without issue. Extraction issues can occur but this can be mitigated with one of the new rare-earth magnetic extractors being fielded now.
The lower velocities the Russian powders confer on the kinetic component of the cartridge actually results in unique wound ballistics as well. Moving more slowly, the bullet takes longer to travel through tissue, thus causing a longer pain impulse and having greater psychological effect on the enemy than if they were shot by a supposedly superior "western" 5.56 projectile. This makes Russian 5.56 actually superior for operational parameters specifying "less lethal" force, as enemies can be shot in the legs or arms, and the resulting "slow pain" will yield enhanced compliance.

I had to go and blow my wad on the first post and then I read this. Wow.

https://youtu.be/jjaqrPpdQYc



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[Dr. Bullseye]

I'm curious what changes the info posted from Circle 10 has caused you to potentially implement. We're certainly never too old to learn and adjust our practices.

I am a fan of lubrication. Someone once said if lubrication was perfect, nothing would wear out. But wear is twofold, both mechanical and chemical. Both increase with heat. I was thinking of the AR rings as mechanical wear only---somehow this was stuck in my head. I should be able to lubricate my way into immortal rings in my previous understanding. Now I know chemical wear also takes place and maybe on a big scale. So I can over lubricate and avoid mechanical wear (maybe) but it may just act to increase chemical reactions, inducing more chemical wear. This brought me to a new realization. AR rings are transitory. My big mistake was not the brand of ring but the fact I did not order three sets.

My lubrication now is going to reverse to the minimal and using the exhaust ports may just help measure what is enough unless I just keep pumping it in there. Also, I feel vindicated in buying Machine Gunner's Lube which isn't cheap BUT contains molybdenum disulfide as a colloidal suspension of two microns. MoS2 is a compound and as far as I know it is not going to chemically react and will enhance boundary lubrication which is what is going to happen with the rings and chrome. I am just going to use this through the exhaust ports and maybe on the neck and lugs, I'll think about it.

Circle 10's discussion on the Russian powder was totally unexpected. It just goes to show that sometimes you don't know what you don't know. I just saw a discussion of this on another forum where they were saying it doesn't always work (wolf/Tula) because of cycling problems (among other things). Well, if the powder is weaker, wouldn't some ARs be OK while others would not cycle properly? Makes sense to me. I was most worried about the steel damaging my extractor which Circle 10 did not mention. Perhaps I should try 20 rounds or so to know if it will work in my AR in emergencies.

Look, this is what I got from the first reading. Usually it takes me a few readings on a subject totally new or unexpected to wrench all the knowledge I can out of it.

[vicious_cb]

The rings have the ability to induce modularity at twelve different points of the bolt stroke, thirteen if you count the auto-rotational drift of the counter recoil mechanisms, however that is open to debate.
Regarding untreated carrier steel, it has been shown that phosbating actually ruptures the outermost layer of steel. "Layer?" You ask? Well yes, BCGs are actually comprised of multiple layers of hyper-compacted steel, rather like an onion. When the other layer is phosbated (originally done so as to not reflect light during ambushes, because SOP in the field is to leave the port door open to allow better venting of humidity, as well as faster exit of ejaculated cases. The early chrome carriers were found to have led to US casualties for this very reason).
Because of the stresses exerted on the carrier by the rings when cycling on autofire, a phosbated carrier, with it's weakened outer "skin" will fail much sooner into it's service life than steel in the white....but, it doesn't reflect light so readily, so it is a trade off. This is why phosbated carriers are still popular on night ops, despite their obvious shortcomings.



The controversy over Russian powder is both deep and wide. As you noted, there are many conflicted viewpoints over these powders and how they collude with the operating system. My personal view is that these Russian powders work fine, but are relatively archaic, at least a generation behind even the original Mattel BAR-B powder. There is some evidence to suggest, mostly from Green Berets forced to use Russian 5.56 during deep cover ops, that the powder accelerates wear on phosbated carriers, but this is a shortcomings in carrier production, not powders, as a quality weapon should be able to utilize indigenous loadings without issue. Extraction issues can occur but this can be mitigated with one of the new rare-earth magnetic extractors being fielded now.
The lower velocities the Russian powders confer on the kinetic component of the cartridge actually results in unique wound ballistics as well. Moving more slowly, the bullet takes longer to travel through tissue, thus causing a longer pain impulse and having greater psychological effect on the enemy than if they were shot by a supposedly superior "western" 5.56 projectile. This makes Russian 5.56 actually superior for operational parameters specifying "less lethal" force, as enemies can be shot in the legs or arms, and the resulting "slow pain" will yield enhanced compliance.

You sir need to write a book.

https://i.imgflip.com/2yh3yv.jpg

[donlapalma]

I don't have a printer so I'm going to the library and print out Circle 10's posts from this thread for my AR 15 hard copy file. Because of his input, I am going to be doing a couple things differently and so in the future, if I begin to question myself as to why, I can look back, quickly, at what brought me to these changes.

Just do yourself a favor and save this thread to PDF and upload to your OneDrive, Google Drive or whatever damn cloud drive you got. That way you have this reference material on hand at the drop of a hat.

Hanging out at the local gun shop and need to school some know-it-all gun counter douches?? Sit tight. I got Circle 10 on deck right here <opening cloud storage app>. Done, done and done.

[gaucho1]

Remember.........the straight man always got paid more for being one half of a comedy team................does everybody know what "a sleeper" means.............me neither

[Circle_10]

Very good stuff here. However, you forgot to address that the Russian 5.56 is calibrated to work with mil reticles as it is actually a metric system powder with European phallurgy in the bullet and case metal, while American .223 is calibrated in MOA due to the American powder, and phallurgy of the bullet and case metal. This becomes important when setting battle zero because Russian 5.56 must be zeroed using mil reticles at a set distance of meters, while American .223 is calibrated for MOA at a set distance of yards.

You'll have to do your own research but I've read that this factor was what drove Glock to move their American production facility to Smyrna, GA once they landed all the contracts with US LE agencies. The manufacturing specs of the American Glocks are actually tuned for American 9mm ammo specs while the European Glocks likewise are tuned for the European 9mm ammo.

Russian powdering is actually measured per unit of arshins, which could more properly be termed a form of "metric inch". However one arshin is only .25% larger than a mil, so the conversion tends to translate over for mil reticles just fine as long as you account for sectional topspin at max velocities.
By dividing the flight quotient into .89 increments, the arshin system can be swiftly adapted for use with MOA reticles as well, although you can end up with a phenomenon known as Dispersional Refraction which can alter your POI.
A modified form of this is actually what Glock ran into when bringing their gun to the the US market. Dispersional Refraction and its regional variations actually affects pistols even more severely than it does rifles, due to their shorter sight radius so in such cases, simply dividing by .89 is not a viable solution. Reworks of both gun and ammo may be required. In the case of Glock, the powder measurements in Austro-Hungarian 9mm pressures were also in their indigenous form of metric inches, much like arshins, as well. Dispersional Refraction was rife in the early batches and Gaston himself reportedly personally intervened, berating his US sales reps in an infamous, profanity-laced tirade. It was a clear the gun needed to be adapted to US ammo. However, In adapting the gun for sale in the US, for use with US 9mm, pressure charge discrepancies also necessitated a move away from the original ceramic composite barrel of the European guns. While the ceramic composite barrels could be threaded very finely for superior engagement with improvised suppression devices, the radiant structural properties of these early barrels couldn't handle the brutal pounding of the virile American 9mm


I am a fan of lubrication. Someone once said if lubrication was perfect, nothing would wear out. But wear is twofold, both mechanical and chemical. Both increase with heat. I was thinking of the AR rings as mechanical wear only---somehow this was stuck in my head. I should be able to lubricate my way into immortal rings in my previous understanding. Now I know chemical wear also takes place and maybe on a big scale. So I can over lubricate and avoid mechanical wear (maybe) but it may just act to increase chemical reactions, inducing more chemical wear. This brought me to a new realization. AR rings are transitory. My big mistake was not the brand of ring but the fact I did not order three sets.

My lubrication now is going to reverse to the minimal and using the exhaust ports may just help measure what is enough unless I just keep pumping it in there. Also, I feel vindicated in buying Machine Gunner's Lube which isn't cheap BUT contains molybdenum disulfide as a colloidal suspension of two microns. MoS2 is a compound and as far as I know it is not going to chemically react and will enhance boundary lubrication which is what is going to happen with the rings and chrome. I am just going to use this through the exhaust ports and maybe on the neck and lugs, I'll think about it.

Circle 10's discussion on the Russian powder was totally unexpected. It just goes to show that sometimes you don't know what you don't know. I just saw a discussion of this on another forum where they were saying it doesn't always work (wolf/Tula) because of cycling problems (among other things). Well, if the powder is weaker, wouldn't some ARs be OK while others would not cycle properly? Makes sense to me. I was most worried about the steel damaging my extractor which Circle 10 did not mention. Perhaps I should try 20 rounds or so to know if it will work in my AR in emergencies.

Look, this is what I got from the first reading. Usually it takes me a few readings on a subject totally new or unexpected to wrench all the knowledge I can out of it.

Using a more pliable (non phosbated) steel in your extractor will help it bend as needed to not incur excessive wear from steel cases. If the extractor loses it's "plastic memory" and more total deformation occurs, it can be bent back into shape with only a pair of vise grips and placed back into the gun. (Although care must be taken to avoid transverse effusion of the outer edges of the claw itself, which is a precursor to lateral effusion, which in turn ruins guns) Generally this is recommended at 50 round intervals, and with the average AR shooting incident last only five (5) rounds on average, this will allow you to neutralize ten threats with five shots each, or fifty threats with one shot each, before preventative maintenance becomes a pressing matter. Once your ten to fifty threats are neutralized, just break the gun open and re-vigorize the mechanisms within while performing your normal scan and assess procedures, thus efficiently multitasking prior to your next engagement.

Extractor strength can also be enhanced with aftermarket upgrades, such as the new ribbed extractors, with their expanded drag surfaces for enhanced encounters. However it is important that the metal still be capable of "appropriate" levels of deformation as this is where the "grabbiness" of an extractor derives. A hardened extractor will fail to grip the case and during rearward expulsion and could thus induce a stoppage during stages three, seven, or nine of the operation cycle (but not, not, NOT during stage six, so ignore what you heard elsewhere).

[Circle_10]

EDIT: I have quite accidentally double posted it seems.

Still, I am ashamed.

Ghosts....

[flenna]

Wow, is there no end to this frontal assault of mind blowing knowledge?

[Eurodriver]

I feel like we should be paying for this. Some of this information is or was at some point definitely classified.

[flenna]

Circle 10 I think Slim Pickens said it right:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8d8h1lbzoHY

[Dr. Bullseye]

Please let me second that idea for a book Circle 10. A writer told me all you have to do is and outline and then a few pages or even one page a day depending on your mood.

Where/how did you get all this knowledge?

[Hart]

Hell, I want know if we set up a group buy for some of those ceramic infused Glock barrels. Maybe Stick can set that up for us. Whose in?

[SeriousStudent]

If anyone messes up the sacred knowledge in this thread, I will ban them with a quickness.

https://i.imgur.com/AwDgkpj.jpg

[26 Inf]

Circle 10, by my count, has written 10 paragraphs. Coincidentally, or, maybe not, the same number as the Commandments which Moses set into stone.

The seismic magnitude of his writings, while not equal to those of God and Moses, will still change the course of firearms knowledge, forever more.

[grizzlyblake]

Hell, I want know if we set up a group buy for some of those ceramic infused Glock barrels. Maybe Stick can set that up for us. Whose in?

You don't want one. Remember the Glock kaboom fiasco? Ever hear of the early Pearce + mag extensions popping off and dumping a loaded mag out the bottom? Those were all issues because Glock had US and European spec parts floating around and getting mixed up.

I actually ran into this a while back. I got a smoking deal on some early Glock Night Sights and picked up a bunch. POI was all jacked up using Federal ammo. Again US/Euro cross talk.

Save yourself a headache and don't try to find the early ceramic barrels unless you also can source Euro sights, mags, trigger bar, and striker to fit to your presumably US spec Glock. You need those parts at a minimum, and of course Euro ammo to match.

[Vegas]

I came here expecting a treatise on torque specs for scope rings. I am bitterly disappointed. I am beginning to think the "low post quality" thread may be on to something.

[MistWolf]

This video from ARFcom will help tie this whole thread together

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3SL9Zk0J_o

[arptsprt]

Finally... someone threw the softball... Lulz...

About 20 seconds into the video I was like, WTF? Really?

Paging Mr. Wells, Mr. Wells... your War of the Worlds is calling.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Circle_10]

I came here expecting a treatise on torque specs for scope rings. I am bitterly disappointed. I am beginning to think the "low post quality" thread may be on to something.

Actually scope ring torque values are an important factor in a total AR reliability package. And it is one of the reasons that optically sighted ARs tend to be less reliable than iron sighted ARs. As it turns out this is not due to the commonly held belief that scopes induce malfunctions but rather from their improperly deployed ancillary hardware. Over torqued rings can apply excess PSI on the top rail, which can result in concurrent separation of the upper receiver's distal margins. This can lead to something called Defrictioned Acceleratory Intensification, commonly called "float bolting". It is exactly what it sounds like. The receiver, being spread apart due to the pressures of high-torque rings, imparts decreased drag onto the carrier during the operational cycle. This allows the speed of the cycling carrier to increase at a geometric rate during the op stroke. While the most normal results are chronic failures to feed, or failures to lock open on the last round due to the extra-sonic cycling speeds of the Defrictioned BCG outrunning the mag flanges, in extreme cases the accelerating bolt carrier can blow the receiver extension straight out of the gun, turning it into a lethal projectile. The original Mk12 SPRs were particularly prone to this.
Although tight optics were the DOD standard per all known technical publications, and no deviation from these operational parameters were permitted, there was a workaround.
The forward assist, originally conceived as a way of assisting the weapon's bolt to stay closed during jungle HALO parachute landings, could also be used as an effective "bolt brake" during firing.
By maintaining firm, consistent pressure on the forward assist *during* firing, the ratchet spine of the assist engages the carrier scallop cuts and effectively slows the bolt carrier's travel down to within an optimal velocity curve, thus counteracting any potential effects of Defrictioned Acceleratory Intensification caused by overtorqued rings.
Now, this preventative measure can become difficult for a lone operator to perform while trying to engage targets in the field due to the ergonomic requirements of depressing the forward assist while shooting. So it became SOP to deploy a Designated Forward Assistor (often called a "bolt buddy" or "Fister" for short) along with every Mk12 shooter. The DFA's role would be to maintain the firm, consistent pressure on the forward assist required for optimal BCG cycling speeds while the shooter focuses on neutralizing targets. Due to the necessity of concealment in the field, the positions that would have to assumed by the DFA would often need to be of a parallel orientation to the shooter (the so called "double decker" method) and so could be considered a breach of personal space, so both the shooter and his bolt buddy would generally need to learn to get past whatever hangups they had about sustained close physical contact with one another.

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Many of these issues related to rings can be avoided with quality parts. I use Rockwell bolt, scope and delta rings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w

[flenna]

Many of these issues related to rings can be avoided with quality parts. I use Rockwell bolt, scope and delta rings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w

This still won’t overcome Defrictioned Acceleratory Intensification as mentioned above by Circle 10.

[AKDoug]

Many of these issues related to rings can be avoided with quality parts. I use Rockwell bolt, scope and delta rings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXJKdh1KZ0w

You ain't shit unless you got in the group buy for the Rockwell stripped lowers.. but yeah, their rings are pretty good.

[Vegas]

Hmm, DFA? The more you know eh? This thread needs to be stickied, can't let this kind of knowledge slip away....