View Full Version : Small-of-back carry...butt-down/palm-out?
On the occasions where I carry a gun concealed...usually a Walther PPS, sometimes a VP9 subcompact...I use an OWB belt slide (DeSantis Speed Scabbard) at 4 o’clock. There are occasions where a small-of-back holster would be the most convenient way for me to carry, but I don’t care for the conventional SOB holsters which position the gun butt-up, forcing me to position my hand palm-in for the draw. I'm not keen on the necessary body and wrist contortions necessary which render such a draw unnecessarily cumbersome for me and limit the usefulness, for me, of carrying in such a manner. I'm aware of the arguments against carrying SOB butt-down but I reject them as creating more problems for me than they solve.
I could make a kydex holster that would work but I hate kydex for concealed carry and would prefer leather for comfort and security. Anybody aware of any leather OWB holsters for small-of-back carry that position the gun butt-down so it can be drawn palm-out?
http://ssequine.net/smallofback.pnghttp://ssequine.net/smallofback4.png
If I understand you correctly you want the back of your hand (knuckles) up against your back and palm facing away from the body. If that's the case why not get a left handed version of the right handed holster you like (or vice versa if you're a lefty)
Do you have any concerns about spine injury if you are involved in a motor vehicle crash while wearing a S.O.B. holster? Do you have any concerns about a spine injury if you fall on your backside while wearing the S.O.B.?
Do you have any concerns about spine injury if you are involved in a motor vehicle crash while wearing a S.O.B. holster? Do you have any concerns about a spine injury if you fall on your backside while wearing the S.O.B.?
I have concerns about my personal safety every time I carry a gun.
If I understand you correctly you want the back of your hand (knuckles) up against your back and palm facing away from the body. If that's the case why not get a left handed version of the right handed holster you like (or vice versa if you're a lefty)
Wouldn't accomplish what I'm looking for. Sorry if I didn't explain it well. See added photo above.
It doesn’t appeal to me but it seem like a left handed crossdraw holster would fit the way you want.
I carried SOB for years in the early 2000's when I lived in Florida, a Kahr T9 in an Andy Arratoonian SOB. I was young, fit and weighed 30 pounds less than now. Back then it was an ideal way to stay concealed but I trained with it and really only carried this way at night. During the day IWB Glock 19/26 was my primary as it is today. SOB worked, but 95% was a proper holster and belt along with training. The other 5% was the effort into carrying 100% of the time all the time. Never had a concern about spine injury, but my lower back was in great shape, today not so much.
Just for the heck I threaded it up on a belt and thew in the old T9 and took a seat in a chair. Nope not going to be comfortable and need to examine chair backs before you sit down non solid chair backs can hang you up a bit unless you sit in them right.
56824
It doesn’t appeal to me but it seem like a left handed crossdraw holster would fit the way you want.
Exactly. I just can't find one, in leather, to fit either the PPS or the VP9sk. I'll keep looking. I may have to go custom, although I hate to invest that much money in a holster I likely won't use that often.
Never really understood how SOB offered any advantages other than maybe in a niche situation like a clerk standing standing and facing forward all day.
Anyway, jelly beans looks like the grip is positioned in a way it could snag on something and get jerked out. Possibly even worked loose from brushing the cheek. In addition to the cheek causing the grip to stand out and not conceal well.
I appreciate the observations. I'm not proposing that this method of carry is for everyone, and I'm not complaining that it's a hard-to-find holster concept. I've had a concealed-carry permit for almost 40 years and I train drawing from concealment regularly. I'm looking to solve a problem that I have, well-aware of the drawbacks and safety considerations that others may perceive about how it would work for them.
ramairthree
04-14-19, 10:47
You can do it with a left handed adjustable can’t Yaqui type holster. I don’t know of a fully enclosed leather holster off the top of my head.
When I have done it it was more of a 5 1/2 o clock than center d small of back.
I know you mentioned not wild about Kydex, but I was wondering if CompTac had any owb belt attachments that had an adjustment range similar to their iwb belt loops and came across this thing:
https://comp-tac.com/qb-holster-owb-all-kydex-modular-holster-q-line-comp-tac/
How can anybody sit in a chair or drive a car with a gun in their small of the back?
It's uncomfortable enough behind the hip but doable for a short while.
How can anybody sit in a chair or drive a car with a gun in their small of the back?
It's uncomfortable enough behind the hip but doable for a short while.
Depends on the individual. When I first started carrying that's how I carried. No problems. Car seats are soft, so is just about everything else you sit on
How can anybody sit in a chair or drive a car with a gun in their small of the back?
It's uncomfortable enough behind the hip but doable for a short while.
Hmac said he had a specific need, I doubt that it is sitting or driving.
Mexican Bandido carry is the final evolution
I carry SOB ~50% of the time. It'll be a S&W Shield so not uncomfortable at all even when sitting in a car.
If the gun is on my back, it's concealed. That means I need to lift up a shirt to get to the pistol. My palm will face my back so I can easily lift my shirt & slide my thumb behind the grip and draw the pistol. It just doesn't seem natural to lift a shirt palm facing out "jelly beans" style.
If you open carry SOB style, you'll eventually have some turd try to take your gun when you aren't looking. Bad idea imo.
OP - Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that a left-hand crossdraw holster worn small of back would position your right hand hand palm out for the draw.
You have to shop angle and weapon, but it looks to me as if something like a DeSantis Criss-Cross would work: https://www.desantisholster.com/the-criss-cross/
I carry SOB ~50% of the time. It'll be a S&W Shield so not uncomfortable at all even when sitting in a car.
If the gun is on my back, it's concealed. That means I need to lift up a shirt to get to the pistol. My palm will face my back so I can easily lift my shirt & slide my thumb behind the grip and draw the pistol. It just doesn't seem natural to lift a shirt palm facing out "jelly beans" style.
If you open carry SOB style, you'll eventually have some turd try to take your gun when you aren't looking. Bad idea imo.
Thank you for the advice.
.
OP - Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that a left-hand crossdraw holster worn small of back would position your right hand hand palm out for the draw.
You have to shop angle and weapon, but it looks to me as if something like a DeSantis Criss-Cross would work: https://www.desantisholster.com/the-criss-cross/
Yep, but not available for any of the guns I carry.
Yep, but not available for any of the guns I carry.
Well James, quit fooling around with Ms Moneypenny, I'm sure that 'Q' has a nice 9mm about the size of the PPK, maybe a Glock 43 at just a smidge longer in the grip.
Just kidding, I bet you have reasons for staying with the PPK.
Well James, quit fooling around with Ms Moneypenny, I'm sure that 'Q' has a nice 9mm about the size of the PPK, maybe a Glock 43 at just a smidge longer in the grip.
Just kidding, I bet you have reasons for staying with the PPK.
PPS...not a PPK fan, particularly
http://ssequine.net/bond guns.png
Depends on the individual. When I first started carrying that's how I carried. No problems. Car seats are soft, so is just about everything else you sit on
I don't have don't yet want a soft car seat. I like support and bolstering so I don't have to stress the steering wheel to stay in that seat! :D
As for rest of time you obviously lead a life of luxury lounging in soft seats where you live and everywhere you go. I envy, you, sir. ;):cool:
PPS...not a PPK fan, particularly
http://ssequine.net/bond guns.png
Whoa...lets not pick on the Beretta 418. :nono:
Edited to add: while the PPK .380 is no fun to shoot, the 7.65 / .32 gets a pass and is a cool gun still.
I don't have don't yet want a soft car seat. I like support and bolstering so I don't have to stress the steering wheel to stay in that seat! :D
As for rest of time you obviously lead a life of luxury lounging in soft seats where you live and everywhere you go. I envy, you, sir. ;):cool:
They're all soft unless you have metal or wooden car seats and home furniture. Some may be more FIRM than others but it's still foam/springs and cloth or leather cover. Everything that gives way when one sits/lays on it.
So I guess if I'm not sleeping on concrete or a park bench and not sitting on metal chairs then sure....life of luxury!
Whoa...lets not pick on the Beretta 418. :nono:
Edited to add: while the PPK .380 is no fun to shoot, the 7.65 / .32 gets a pass and is a cool gun still.
I care less about "cool guns", more about the lethality and shootability that they bring to the party.
Anyway, I'm not picking on the 418. That was Q, who dissed it as a lady's gun.
Okay, excuse me my ignorance, I have limited brain power and can't commit movie dialog to memory as well as some of you, is the 'Jelly Beans' from a Bond movie? (Also, got to admit I didn't watch most of them.)
Okay, excuse me my ignorance, I have limited brain power and can't commit movie dialog to memory as well as some of you, is the 'Jelly Beans' from a Bond movie? (Also, got to admit I didn't watch most of them.)
Old Magpul reference
Over a decade ago, I carried SOB, but I did it IWB.
I moved to Dallas during that period, and there was a day where it was freezing. The parking lot of the apartment I lived at was on a hill. And, there was a fire hydrant that leaked all the time. I was walking back from checking the mail, and I was looking at my mail. I walked threw the "water" that was always leaking from the hydrant, but that day it was frozen.
I fell and landed right on my butt. Thankfully, that particular day, I had used an OWB holster, and my pistol was at the 3 o'clock position. If I had been carry SOB that day, I would have damaged my back tremendously, when I fell on the concrete parking lot. It hurt bad enough as it was. But, I could have broken some bones, or worse yet - paralyzed myself...
I have NEVER carried SOB after that day. That was back in 2004.
Be aware that in some fights, some attackers like to shove and push someone on their butt really quickly. I've seen some surveillance videos shown of fights that have made it on the net or tv - and the attacker has done that. I think it's a bad idea to carry SOB, because it is too easy to get hurt if you fall or get pushed.
But, suit yourself...
Over a decade ago, I carried SOB, but I did it IWB.
I moved to Dallas during that period, and there was a day where it was freezing. The parking lot of the apartment I lived at was on a hill. And, there was a fire hydrant that leaked all the time. I was walking back from checking the mail, and I was looking at my mail. I walked threw the "water" that was always leaking from the hydrant, but that day it was frozen.
I fell and landed right on my butt. Thankfully, that particular day, I had used an OWB holster, and my pistol was at the 3 o'clock position. If I had been carry SOB that day, I would have damaged my back tremendously, when I fell on the concrete parking lot. It hurt bad enough as it was. But, I could have broken some bones, or worse yet - paralyzed myself...
I have NEVER carried SOB after that day. That was back in 2004.
Be aware that in some fights, some attackers like to shove and push someone on their butt really quickly. I've seen some surveillance videos shown of fights that have made it on the net or tv - and the attacker has done that. I think it's a bad idea to carry SOB, because it is too easy to get hurt if you fall or get pushed.
But, suit yourself...
Yes. Carrying a gun can be dangerous.
How can you draw from that position without severely sweeping yourself. I understand this may occur incidentally from ANY carry position, but with this proposed one, it seems like you have to rotate the gun 90 degrees across your own body.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-16-19, 20:39
How can you draw from that position without severely sweeping yourself. I understand this may occur incidentally from ANY carry position, but with this proposed one, it seems like you have to rotate the gun 90 degrees across your own body.
How does anyone draw safely? How does any reholster safely?
I understand the sentiment, but a draw that necessarily requires turning the muzzle 90 degrees across the entire lower torso seems very inefficient and full of unnecessary risk. About like drawing from a cross draw holster from the side on which it is worn.
I understand the sentiment, but a draw that necessarily requires turning the muzzle 90 degrees across the entire lower torso seems very inefficient and full of unnecessary risk. About like drawing from a cross draw holster from the side on which it is worn.
Do you think it is more fraught with peril than drawing from an AIWB holster?
I agree, SOB carry makes for a very in efficient draw, but it can be done safely - muzzle clears, forearm rotates down, muzzle oriented downward, comes alongside the leg and then the big scoop movement - the carry position and the draw are a compromise.
What was really challenging was teaching guys to draw from shoulder holsters with a modicum of safety.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-17-19, 02:23
I understand the sentiment, but a draw that necessarily requires turning the muzzle 90 degrees across the entire lower torso seems very inefficient and full of unnecessary risk. About like drawing from a cross draw holster from the side on which it is worn.
I carry AIWB. I have drawn from sitting, kneeling, standing, prone, suppine, etc. At what point does any of that meet your "safe draw matrix"?
I'm puzzled by the "safe draw matrix" comment completely. It seems like you're just trying to pick a fight.
The OP wants a holster that allows him to carry the gun in the small of his back so he can grip the gun with the back of his hand against his body. This would require the muzzle to face the support side and the gun to be oriented essentially upright (sights up and mag well towards the ground) To draw, you would have to remove the gun from the holster and because of the mechanics of the wrist, rotate the gun forward while sweeping the muzzle across the entire torso.
This differs significantly from traditional small of back carry where the gun is usually at a severe angle where the grip is up and the sights are down. Think regular behind the hip carry but with a greater angle. That carry position works with the mechanics of the wrist so that the gun is drawn and presented in a much less complicated motion that doesn't require swinging the muzzle directly across your entire torso.
Also note that it was another user that had an issue with appendix carry. I use appendix carry regularly and understand the benefits and compromises of the position. My only point in any of this is to promote a discussion. I think what the OP proposes is worth really thinking through.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-17-19, 06:43
I'm puzzled by the "safe draw matrix" comment completely. It seems like you're just trying to pick a fight.
The OP wants a holster that allows him to carry the gun in the small of his back so he can grip the gun with the back of his hand against his body. This would require the muzzle to face the support side and the gun to be oriented essentially upright (sights up and mag well towards the ground) To draw, you would have to remove the gun from the holster and because of the mechanics of the wrist, rotate the gun forward while sweeping the muzzle across the entire torso.
This differs significantly from traditional small of back carry where the gun is usually at a severe angle where the grip is up and the sights are down. Think regular behind the hip carry but with a greater angle. That carry position works with the mechanics of the wrist so that the gun is drawn and presented in a much less complicated motion that doesn't require swinging the muzzle directly across your entire torso.
Also note that it was another user that had an issue with appendix carry. I use appendix carry regularly and understand the benefits and compromises of the position. My only point in any of this is to promote a discussion. I think what the OP proposes is worth really thinking through.
I'm not picking a fight. HMAC started this thread with one specific aim in mind, and that wasn't to have people tell him that drawing/carrying a gun might be dangerous. He's a smart man, and a big boy, who understands the inherent danger. And as I've pointed out, AIWB has far more inherent dangers involved, and yet we all take the risk because of the great reward.
I'm not picking a fight. HMAC started this thread with one specific aim in mind, and that wasn't to have people tell him that drawing/carrying a gun might be dangerous. He's a smart man, and a big boy, who understands the inherent danger. And as I've pointed out, AIWB has far more inherent dangers involved, and yet we all take the risk because of the great reward.
Yes, thank you. I didn’t mean for this to drift off into folks giving the newbie advice on the inherent dangers of carrying a gun, but I’m not very surprised that that advice has become part of the discussion. I’m interested in others’ opinions, always read them, and discard the things that are, for me, irrelevant, biased, or just wrong (in my experience).
The internet is always an interesting place to seek advice. As you note, there are many ways to carry a gun and hundreds of holster designs. Maybe some are better than others in an absolute sense, but the huge number of holster designs out there should probably tip us all off that there is no one way better than another and that the way we carry is largely personal preference. Personally, it’s interesting to me that someone might declare SOB (palm-in or out) as dangerous and in the same breath tout AIWB as the optimal way to carry. Just goes to show ya....when it comes to personal preference it doesn’t always have to make perfect sense.
Personally, it’s interesting to me that someone might declare SOB (palm-in or out) as dangerous and in the same breath tout AIWB as the optimal way to carry.
Certainly you could not be referring to me here. I mentioned carrying appendix and the benefits and compromises of the position. I hardly believe it, or anything else, to be universally "optimal."
Again, just trying to foster some discussion of a method of carry I have never heard of. Maybe the correct approach would have been to start a second thread.
And to the point of the thread, perhaps a left handed cross draw holster would get you where you want to be. Some have a little more severe of a cant
Certainly you could not be referring to me here. I mentioned carrying appendix and the benefits and compromises of the position. I hardly believe it, or anything else, to be universally "optimal."
Again, just trying to foster some discussion of a method of carry I have never heard of. Maybe the correct approach would have been to start a second thread.Not referring to anybody or any thread in particular. It's a common topic that comes up whenever the internet discusses methods of firearms carry, however, and an example of the power of rationalization when it comes to (unnecessarily) justifying personal preference. I've seen some bizarre methods of carry over the years. I don't judge anyone's particular preferences for firearms or holsters...irrelevant to me as long as it doesn't affect me.
And to the point of the thread, perhaps a left handed cross draw holster would get you where you want to be. Some have a little more severe of a cantYeah, that's where I'm focused on addressing the SOB issue. It's not an overriding quest...just something I'm casually pursuing. My carry needs are generally met by a leather DeSantis Speed Scabbard, which works well, for me, for the three or four different guns that I might carry. I have one for each. I just picked up a VP9sk...expecting a holster from UPS today so I can see if that double-stack beast will work for me for concealed carry.
Hmac - Based on this thread and since I'm rolling in dough (what my wife says I think) I ordered a right hand DeSantis Criss Cross for my Glock 43. The experiment was a failure in my view. The thing was flopping all over the place back there. I reversed it and put it on with the holster inside the belt and the belt loop/slide out. That calmed things down quite a bit, but dang it I'm left handed. For it to work for me I should have ordered a left hand cross draw and flipped it.
I know that DeSantis doesn't make one for your Walther, but wanted to let you know in case you did find a cross draw that fits.
Since you don't except PM's now the whole internet knows of my folly. :)
Thanks for the info. The whole SOB thing for me is a work in progress...not a high priority. None of us has holsters that work great for us in all circumstances. I don’t carry a gun that often and the stuff I use works well for most situations but I’m just trying to fill the gap.
Do you have any concerns about spine injury if you are involved in a motor vehicle crash while wearing a S.O.B. holster? Do you have any concerns about a spine injury if you fall on your backside while wearing the S.O.B.?
Most of the time you may as well be yelling this to the moon in the middle of the night. People don't want to hear this, and they don't understand the extreme danger involved. No one thinks they will fall, get into an accident, hit a large pothole, or have anything that impacts their lower back area. It just doesn't occur to them. Once an injury occurs, these are then the people tell everyone else they are fools if they even consider SOB carry.
I've seen horrible injuries from SOB carry, and it means nothing to anyone.
Most of the time you may as well be yelling this to the moon in the middle of the night. People don't want to hear this, and they don't understand the extreme danger involved. No one thinks they will fall, get into an accident, hit a large pothole, or have anything that impacts their lower back area. It just doesn't occur to them. Once an injury occurs, these are then the people tell everyone else they are fools if they even consider SOB carry.
I've seen horrible injuries from SOB carry, and it means nothing to anyone.
I simplify to #neverarguewithidiots and #youcancarryIWBifyouLose10to250LBS
Most of the time you may as well be yelling this to the moon in the middle of the night. People don't want to hear this, and they don't understand the extreme danger involved. No one thinks they will fall, get into an accident, hit a large pothole, or have anything that impacts their lower back area. It just doesn't occur to them. Once an injury occurs, these are then the people tell everyone else they are fools if they even consider SOB carry.
I've seen horrible injuries from SOB carry, and it means nothing to anyone.
I feel the same way about AIWB...
I feel the same way about AIWB...
Never heard of falling on an AIWB focusing the impact and causing damage. Which internal organ(s) are affected by that?
Never heard of falling on an AIWB focusing the impact and causing damage. Which internal organ(s) are affected by that?
Oh, good grief folks:
extreme danger
horrible injuries
internal organ damage
I'm sure that most of the folks posting here are able to do their own cost to benefit analysis in decision making.
Oh, good grief folks:
extreme danger
horrible injuries
internal organ damage
I'm sure that most of the folks posting here are able to do their own cost to benefit analysis in decision making.
Actually it was a legit question. The only thing that I had heard with aiwb carry which can happen with any form of carry when Something gets inside the trigger guard while being holstered. I honestly had not heard of any significant increases in injury from falling on an aiwb holster.
Oh, good grief folks:
extreme danger
horrible injuries
internal organ damage
I'm sure that most of the folks posting here are able to do their own cost to benefit analysis in decision making.
Yes :rolleyes:
,
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