View Full Version : Bushmaster quality?
I bought mine in 1999. It's a M16A2 type. I haven't kept track of the round count, but it has never once given me a problem.
I'm off to the range this afternoon to put a couple hundred more rounds through it.
Did I just get lucky, or were the older Bushmasters better than the new ones?
(All that being said, when I recently bought a car gun, it was a 6920).
And what about the new Windhams?
Bushmaster has an up and down history with AR15s. It’s like the QC rules were only in play certain days. Certain time periods were better than others, but nine were on par with Colt or the like.
I own a Buhsmaster URG which has been flawless, though I confess it hasn’t been fired much if at all in the last decade.
Renegade04
04-14-19, 12:27
I believe that the Bushmasters of old (Windham, ME made models) are better that those of today. I have a Windham, ME made XM15-E2S A3 Target and it is a great shooter. It was the basis for my Travis Haley Blackwater clone.
Inspiration:
https://i.imgur.com/i2Tmuvn.jpg
Clone:
https://i.imgur.com/MJoKmz5.jpg
Their QC has indeed been up and down, but over the years I've heard generally positive comments about their barrels. Don't know if they make their own or buy them from a subcontractor, though.
There used to be a gun rag called “Gun Tests” in the 1990s that claimed no advertising dollars from manufacturers & they bought OTS guns, tested them & reported their results. Any problems requiring return were also reflected in the reviews as well. Back in the early 1990s (before the 1994 ban) there was Armalite, Bushmaster & Colt for ARs. Their review of all 3 led to the conclusion that Bushmaster was a few hundred dollars cheaper and did everything the Colt & Armalite did “better.” So, I bought a Dissipator—I liked the 16” heavy barrel with carbine gas system & full sight radius.
I’ve never had a problem with it in thousands of rounds. After reading about all the differences, I replaced the bolt & BCG with BCM; it now has a Geissele SSA trigger and an A2 stock. It still runs like a top, but is overgassed, as evidenced by brass sprinkles with M193, but the 1/9 twist allows me to consistently hit clay pigeons resting on the 100 yard berm with the TA11 ACOG on it. With handloads, I am able to subMOA with it. But it is an Hbar, so I would have been surprised if it didn’t shoot well.
Retrospectively, I wish I bought the Colt, not because of problems with the Bushie . But since the 1990s, I switched to building my own with CHF barrels. The exception being the Daniel Defense indulgence years ago.
wetidlerjr
04-14-19, 16:59
There used to be a gun rag called “Gun Tests” in the 1990s that claimed no advertising dollars from manufacturers & they bought OTS guns, tested them & reported their results. Any problems requiring return were also reflected in the reviews as well...
https://www.gun-tests.com/
:thank_you2:
I've owned 5 or 6 of the Windham Bushmasters over the years. They were all good rifles. I still have an A2 "Patrolman's Carbine," and it still gets shot a good bit. I kept it just because it was an A2.
https://www.gun-tests.com/
:thank_you2:
That’s him! That’s the ka-wat chewin’ wascal! (Spoken like Elmer Fudd).
I tried to justify an N of 1 and statistical significance as meaningful, but it isn’t, re: Gun Tests. Bottom line: my Bushies have been fine, but I have changed parts & springs to make me feel better. The Windham, pre-Ilion gun’s I have are finished better, but the commercial buffer tubes, BCGs & some other parts were swapped for BCM. I guess I could sell the lower to some poor guy in a pre-ban state...
A man needs a hobby.
Pacific5th
04-14-19, 21:36
The one and only AR I currently have is a Bushmaster. It’s a Windham made one and have never given me any issues.
https://www.gun-tests.com/
:thank_you2:
So, what is your opinion of the magazine? Is it worth two bucks an issue?
Thanks!
wetidlerjr
04-15-19, 00:45
So, what is your opinion of the magazine? Is it worth two bucks an issue?
Thanks!
I have no idea about the print magazine. I was just showing the online link. It's all new to me.
I own several Bushmaster rifles. One of the local gun dealers sells them by the train car load, I buy them cheap at local pawn shops--- after every big scare, give it a year or so and you will find them showing up...case, three mags, fired about 30-100 rounds......
I've never had one that didn't run. Overgassed? Yes. AR15 bolt vs. M16 style, Yes. Poor gas key staking? Frequently. Castle nut not staked- Always. Commercial buttstock extension, Yup.
Big deal. I own a MOAKS and a good center punch....bolt issues and castle nut fixed- 2 minutes. If I couldn't fix those common "complaints" I would sell all my rifles as I would be embarrassed to admit otherwise.
I run the guns as "trainers" primarily. If something breaks- well, then it has served it's purpose- breaking guns by shooting them makes skill--that's the whole point so I don't feel bad if a "non milspec" AR15 bolt goes down etc....Never had an issue with the extensions breaking etc...and I have mortared a few over the years.....The barrels are pretty darn good even if they are over gassed....reasonably accurate and durable. I've never found the 1/9 twist a problem- I buy my own training ammo- and it's 55 grain, brass cased, maybe m193, maybe not, depends on what I can get at a reasonable cost...
When the barrel is burned out I replace it, sometimes with a better barrel, sometimes with a Take Off of some sort. Because of the large number of Bushmaster guns in the area the local gunsmiths often have take off M4 Bushmaster barrels from when guys converted the guns to a "precision" rifle or maybe they wanted a 6.8 or a Blackout....they sell them cheap- bought several nearly new ones, complete for $40 or less.
For me, for the money etc....I have no problems with them.
Big deal. I own a MOAKS and a good center punch....bolt issues and castle nut fixed- 2 minutes. If I couldn't fix those common "complaints" I would sell all my rifles as I would be embarrassed to admit otherwise.
Quoted for truth.
ramairthree
04-15-19, 13:54
I have beat the piss out of one for over 25 years.
I recently put it back in original configuration.
It has had different stocks, rails, carry handle mounted forward aimpoint 1000, carry handle 3x scope, redi mag, etc.
https://oi649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/112632C7-776D-4B62-9039-5928BAE03BB1_zpsmkflgnkp.jpeg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/112632C7-776D-4B62-9039-5928BAE03BB1_zpsmkflgnkp.jpeg.html)
It was on par with a Colt or Armalite of the era.
Bushmaster has an up and down history with AR15s. It’s like the QC rules were only in play certain days. Certain time periods were better than others, but nine were on par with Colt or the like.
Probably about as accurate of a statement as anyone will post. My dad's Bushy had a castle nut that was near completely backed off out of the box, and ran haaaaarsh (overgased & underbuffered). YMMV.
ramairthree
04-15-19, 16:26
The whole overgassed thing is true.
But they leaned way towards reliability with crappy ammo and in crappy conditions.
Something that seems to be lost on some of the members here. You shouldn't haven't have to stake a castle nut, replace shitty carrier key screws, buy an H buffer, get a .040 front sight post, ream a chamber etc... on a new rifle to make it functional. Bushamster and other junk vendors survive because people don't demand they fix their products.
Bashamster quality is all over the place and has been for decades. Sadly, they could have made their stuff legit and yet chose not to.
Something that seems to be lost on some of the members here. You shouldn't haven't have to stake a castle nut, replace shitty carrier key screws, buy an H buffer, get a .040 front sight post, ream a chamber etc... on a new rifle to make it functional. Bushamster and other junk vendors survive because people don't demand they fix their products.
Bashamster quality is all over the place and has been for decades. Sadly, they could have made their stuff legit and yet chose not to.
I would argue that they "survive" (How many times has Colt gone bankrupt or nearly so, now?) because they produce a product that people want and can afford that will fill a need they have- which in most cases is to sit in a closet and collect dust. That's the truth of the matter.
Now, you can say, "Well, those people are stupid and they should educate themselves and the only AR's in existence should be Colt 6920's etc..." But that's not the way of the world, never has been, never will be. Like it, don't like it....some things simply ARE.....
ChattanoogaPhil
04-16-19, 08:32
I purchased a Bushmaster during the ban years. It was my first autoloading centerfire rifle. Fed it a steady diet of Wolf 62gr with the lacquer drips down the side of the case. Never skipped a beat.
Included was a 1983 USMC TM (don't know if Bushmaster included it or the seller did). In any event, I read through it and learned a little bit about the rifle. Also came with this spliced together 10rd magazine which I soon replaced with an outrageously priced 30rd magazine at a gun show. I took it out a couple years ago and it still shoots well. I now use the lower on a CMMG .22 dedicated upper and replaced the A2 stock with an adjustable. Maybe one day I'll buy another lower for the .22 and return the Bushmaster to it's original form.
https://i.imgur.com/qyv6Rqq.jpg
I was issued a brand new Bushmaster in 2009. My department bought 200 of them when they were unable to buy new Colts during the panic years and someone in the command staff brought up the "fact" that they are all the same anyways.
During my 40 hour 3000+ round patrol rifle school my Bushmaster broke two different pieces in the FCG. Of the 15 guys in my class at least 10 had some sort of issue with their rifle that required armorer attention.
Over the next 3 years my Bushmaster would have the entire FCG replaced because of parts breakage, I would go through 4 sets of gas rings, and my gas key came loose. During our quarterly training days and quals we would have multiple rifles go down every single training day. In 2012 we were able to trade in our Bushmasters for new Colt 6920s. Since then rifles going down during quarterly training days has dropped to almost non existent. I can remember 2 rifles going down in the last 7 years. My Colt has roughly 10k rounds through it at this point and has not failed me yet. I have complete trust in the rifle.
I will say though, when the Bushmaster was running it never had a FTF or FTE and had a very accurate barrel.
No, they survive because people buy an inferior product and even after they discover it's inferior they try and fix it themselves, rather than make the company address it. I know of an LE agency right now that's having issues with their weapons and it's becoming a major problem.
Colt going bankrupt has nothing to do with their quality or their sales. It's because of their organization, their location and liabilities.
The cost difference between a Colt and BM in normal times was usually not much more than 150.00. Anyone can afford to save 150.00 more. In fact anyone could save 300.00 more, but people don't want to because we live in the Instant Gratification society of microwave results.
I would argue that they "survive" (How many times has Colt gone bankrupt or nearly so, now?) because they produce a product that people want and can afford that will fill a need they have- which in most cases is to sit in a closet and collect dust. That's the truth of the matter.
Now, you can say, "Well, those people are stupid and they should educate themselves and the only AR's in existence should be Colt 6920's etc..." But that's not the way of the world, never has been, never will be. Like it, don't like it....some things simply ARE.....
I guess I just got lucky, then. Mine was made on a Wednesday morning, perhaps. I can't tell if the castle nut is staked, because it has the correct A2 stock on it, but the gas key bolts appear to be properly staked; the bolt metal is pushed into the heads of the bolts. The barrel is marked NATO 1/9 MP, but there are no markings on the bolt.
No, they survive because people buy an inferior product and even after they discover it's inferior they try and fix it themselves, rather than make the company address it. I know of an LE agency right now that's having issues with their weapons and it's becoming a major problem.
Colt going bankrupt has nothing to do with their quality or their sales. It's because of their organization, their location and liabilities.
The cost difference between a Colt and BM in normal times was usually not much more than 150.00. Anyone can afford to save 150.00 more. In fact anyone could save 300.00 more, but people don't want to because we live in the Instant Gratification society of microwave results.
I find it hard to believe that "an agency" is having problems with their guns. Why? Because SURELY they have many highly educated Experts telling them what to order etc....People who KNOW that certain guns are junk etc.....who would tell them so, who would provide persuasive examples of how Junky those guns really were- assuming they were actually doing their jobs etc....Again, as YOU SAY, the difference, and I have to believe at LEO pricing it's even LESS of a difference, in cost is minimal.
As far as sending a gun back for issues, there are certainly some issues that I would send a rifle back for. Staking a castle nut or a carrier key isn't one of those things. The postage in sending it back and risk of loss in shipping- happens more than people like to admit, far outweigh the two minutes it takes to "fix" it.
With Colt, I can't really agree with all that. First, there is no way that their civilian sales are anywhere near what Bushmasters numbers are- the last time I looked, Bushmaster outsold Colt 2/1. Market share in business..."is a thing" that has meaning for a companies survival and profitability. You can't just pretend it doesn't matter. Second, their "liabilities" should have been wiped out in bankruptcy- that's the purpose of a bankruptcy if done properly. And their location? Move. Firearms companies - those that want to stay in business- Magpul (Texas), PTR (South Carolina), AAC (Alabama), Beretta (Tn), Winchester (ammo plant, Oxford MS) Armalite (Arizona).....See a pattern? Are getting the hell out of communist shitholes that want to run them out of business or where labor costs are stupidly high....in fact ALL MANUFACTURERS of products have known that if they wanted to survive in the U.S., they need to move south at least since the 1980s'- this is nothing new. If they are too stupid to figure that out, then I don't care how good of a product they make, they deserve to fail.
I guess I just got lucky, then. Mine was made on a Wednesday morning, perhaps. I can't tell if the castle nut is staked, because it has the correct A2 stock on it, but the gas key bolts appear to be properly staked; the bolt metal is pushed into the heads of the bolts. The barrel is marked NATO 1/9 MP, but there are no markings on the bolt.
I am far from an AR expert but the Rifle receiver extension doesn't use a castle nut. I guess 90% of the AR buyers will never realize or need the quality of a high quality part AR.
I am far from an AR expert but the Rifle receiver extension doesn't use a castle nut. I guess 90% of the AR buyers will never realize or need the quality of a high quality part AR.
There is no castle nut on a rifle stock.
I’ve owned one Bushy. It was horribly overgassed, had fairly frequent stoppages, and the gas key became loose a couple hundred rounds in. This was around 2001. I sold it.
I am far from an AR expert but the Rifle receiver extension doesn't use a castle nut. I guess 90% of the AR buyers will never realize or need the quality of a high quality part AR.
You're exactly right. 90% of buyers don't shoot enough for it to matter. They don't. Period. They want "An AR15 because they might ban them or I need one to shoot pigs with". Honest to God that's why most people have them.
They aren't doing high round count classes etc......The statistics that I have seen show that nationwide about 10,000 serious students "drive" the training market, that's it. We are not a nation of hard ass Spartans, sorry, but that's how it is. And God Bless those folks- they make it possible for these companies to EXIST- because again- Market Making/Market share is reality. Average consumers of AR15's buy more Magpul magazines than the US military and Civilian Spartans COMBINED by orders of magnitude. Without that buying power the AR Platform would be stuck in about 2004- and a lot has changed since then.
Cool story. Apparently you are the SME on this topic.
I find it hard to believe that "an agency" is having problems with their guns. Why? Because SURELY they have many highly educated Experts telling them what to order etc....People who KNOW that certain guns are junk etc.....who would tell them so, who would provide persuasive examples of how Junky those guns really were- assuming they were actually doing their jobs etc....Again, as YOU SAY, the difference, and I have to believe at LEO pricing it's even LESS of a difference, in cost is minimal.
As far as sending a gun back for issues, there are certainly some issues that I would send a rifle back for. Staking a castle nut or a carrier key isn't one of those things. The postage in sending it back and risk of loss in shipping- happens more than people like to admit, far outweigh the two minutes it takes to "fix" it.
With Colt, I can't really agree with all that. First, there is no way that their civilian sales are anywhere near what Bushmasters numbers are- the last time I looked, Bushmaster outsold Colt 2/1. Market share in business..."is a thing" that has meaning for a companies survival and profitability. You can't just pretend it doesn't matter. Second, their "liabilities" should have been wiped out in bankruptcy- that's the purpose of a bankruptcy if done properly. And their location? Move. Firearms companies - those that want to stay in business- Magpul (Texas), PTR (South Carolina), AAC (Alabama), Beretta (Tn), Winchester (ammo plant, Oxford MS) Armalite (Arizona).....See a pattern? Are getting the hell out of communist shitholes that want to run them out of business or where labor costs are stupidly high....in fact ALL MANUFACTURERS of products have known that if they wanted to survive in the U.S., they need to move south at least since the 1980s'- this is nothing new. If they are too stupid to figure that out, then I don't care how good of a product they make, they deserve to fail.
Cool story. Apparently you are the SME on this topic.
Not at all.
But I do understand how business works. Anyone who has taken Business 101 knows I'm right. I understand bankruptcy. I understand that ever since the Rust Belt concept was coined that businesses have fled the Northeast if they wanted to survive.
I understand that the AVERAGE AR15 consumer isn't you or me and denying it doesnt make it less true.
Bushmaster, DPMS, Del-Ton, & PSA are the fat chicks of the AR world.
Glock9mm1990
04-17-19, 21:59
I had a bushmaster that I bought before I knew anything about AR’s back in 2015. Well fast forward to 2018 I got educated on the AR-15 platform learning so much though those few years. Eventually I finally got around to selling the upper on an online sale, striped the lower down to just the bare receiver and installed a BCM lpk including their Mil-spec buffer tube that is torqued at 40 foot pounds and staked twice along with a bcm buffer spring and H buffer. I then threw a complete Colt 6920 upper on it now it’s a completely different rifle.
Bushmaster, DPMS, Del-Ton, & PSA are the fat chicks of the AR world.
True enough....;)
Bushmaster, DPMS, Del-Ton, & PSA are the fat chicks of the AR world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6qvJp4zPlY
I have several Windham Weaponry AR15's and love them. They all run great, even the one in 7.62x39 on full auto.
https://youtu.be/ma82EphaORQ?t=4m40s
wetidlerjr
04-19-19, 17:12
I have had two complete Bushmasters from around 2000-2001 and I still have one of the lowers that I use with my 22LR upper. I never had any trouble to speak of but I wasn't a high round shooter with either rifle.
Bushmaster, DPMS, Del-Ton, & PSA are the fat chicks of the AR world.
Does Spike's belong on that list as well?
I had a Bustmaster Carbine around 1996 went single shot after the gas key came loose after about 500 rounds.
I find it hard to believe that "an agency" is having problems with their guns. Why? Because SURELY they have many highly educated Experts telling them what to order etc....People who KNOW that certain guns are junk etc.....who would tell them so, who would provide persuasive examples of how Junky those guns really were- assuming they were actually doing their jobs etc....Again, as YOU SAY, the difference, and I have to believe at LEO pricing it's even LESS of a difference, in cost is minimal.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that, even though it should. Some agencies budgeting and policies basically reward the cheaper contract even though you and I know spending more once would be the smarter option. So if the colt is 1$ more than the bushmaster, guess what they are buying...bushmaster. The caveat is that other agencies with big money cities can pretty much say this is what we want and they get it. My agency swat team has bushmaster sbr's (although modified enough to basically only still retain the factory lower) but we aren't a large $ agency. Two of our neighboring agencies, one has KAC sbr's and the other has/had hk416's. TLDR its not that simple.
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that, even though it should. Some agencies budgeting and policies basically reward the cheaper contract even though you and I know spending more once would be the smarter option. So if the colt is 1$ more than the bushmaster, guess what they are buying...bushmaster. The caveat is that other agencies with big money cities can pretty much say this is what we want and they get it. My agency swat team has bushmaster sbr's (although modified enough to basically only still retain the factory lower) but we aren't a large $ agency. Two of our neighboring agencies, one has KAC sbr's and the other has/had hk416's. TLDR its not that simple.
I know of an agency that has the surplus a1 rifles on loan from the government, that have been converted to carbines. Some by the officers themselves and some by an outside source. They are quite the hodgepodge of parts. Some are extremely high quality and others are built using airsoft grade junk.
My duty rifle is a HK416 FS.Personally I have a Bushmaster XM-15 MOE M4-Type Carbine, and both have equal accuracy at 100m with SS109 (62gr) cartridges.
3ACR_Scout
04-26-19, 09:36
Another factor in Bushmaster’s “survival” is their widespread name recognition based on their (unfortunate) association with mass shootings and the way they’ve been covered in the media. I would bet that a lot of Americans couldn’t identify Colt as a major manufacturer of military weapons, but they would recognize Bushmaster as a producer of “assault weapons.” My brother-in-law, who is also in the military, has an M&P Sport but rarely shoots it. A couple years ago, after I took him out to shoot my midlength BCM, said, “what I really want to get is a Bushmaster.” It was simply the first name that he associated with AR15s.
My Bushmaster XM15-E2S was the first AR I bought, purchased at the end of 2004 right after the AWB sunset. Us older guys will remember that back then, if you couldn’t find a Colt, or didn’t want to want to pay $1,000+ for one, nearly everyone would tell you to buy a Bushmaster as the next best thing. The big question back then was whether or not a rifle had a chrome-lined barrel, which seems to be almost a given nowadays. After Bushmaster, Olympic, DPMS, Rock River, and the few other manufacturers of the early 2000s were considered to be inferior. I was not very satisfied with my Bushmaster; between the commercial receiver extension (which sounded like it had sand inside it when I pulled the charging handle back), semi auto bolt carrier, mushy selector, and plastic GI-style trigger guard, it just felt “cheap” compared to the military rifles I was used to. I never had any functional issues with it, but I didn’t really put it through its paces (I was deployed too often to take any classes after buying it). I just didn’t have a lot of confidence in it and wasn’t excited about getting out to shoot it very often. I didn’t know much about the technical specs of ARs, but that rifle killed my interest in civilian ARs for almost a decade until I bought my first BCM (after reading this forum for most of a deployment).
I recently upgraded my Bushmaster with a BCM RE assembly, FCG, and furniture, a Colt selector, and a PSA premium BCG, and it functions great and feels more “solid,” for lack of a more thorough technical assessment. It’s interesting to read the comments about overgassing here, since my rifle seems to have a stronger recoil impulse than the military M4s I’m used to. I’m going to experiment with an H2 buffer to see if I can tame the recoil a little. This rifle will end up being a training / loaner rifle that I’ll probably use to experiment with new components once in a while.
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