View Full Version : I'm over the A5 system, do you think its worth it?
I know we have tons of A5 threads, but I wanted to share my thoughts and experiences and throw out a poll on the topic. My eyes gloss over when the same three or four guys start talking mechanical tech stuff in every A5 thread, its just beyond my comprehension so that probably plays a factor. Regardless, this is where I'm at currently.
Pros:
1. Increased reliability, decreased parts wear, and maybe recoil mitigation - though it is VERY debatable how much of a real/perceived benefit any of this is for the vast majority of shooters
2. Increased tune-ability based on available buffer weights
Cons:
1. Shit availability - if you're able to find everything in stock, its rarely all in the same place. The VLTOR tube doesn't have as many positions as the BCM or Magpul, so the latter are preferred. However, BCM's kit only comes with an A5-0, which is weird and somewhat pointless. The Springco Green SPring is also typically regarded as better, and again, is not sold in any kit that I'm aware of. On a good day, I'm ordering a buffer and tube from one place and the Springco from another. I'm pretty sure I've had to buy all three from separate vendors before. Then you add the castle nut and end plate, its just obnoxious.
2. Cost - piecing together all of the separate parts is probably around $125, at best. The BCM mil-spec kit is $57.95.
3. Extended OAL - not really a big deal in use, but my ARs are just barely too long to fit in the foam inside of my hard case, because of the A5.
4. Factory lower options - there are plenty of reasons for building your own lower, and I swap most stuff out of a standard LPK anyways. However, there are very few factory options with the A5 already installed and at least the BCM, from what I've seen, only comes with black furniture and a non-SOPMOD stock. I think there re even fewer complete rifles with them.
6. Proprietary parts - I'm all for spare parts, but if somehow you get caught with your pants down, most LGS will probably have standard carbine buffer parts on hand. Maybe they'll have a rifle tube and spring, but the buffers themselves stay pretty scarce.
Bottom line, with few people shooting FA and a growing demand for minimalist gas port sizes, I just don't see the increased performance as being worth it. Again, this has just been my experience. I haven't removed my current two yet, so if I'm way off base on the pros side, I'm up for some knowledge, but I think the vast majority of solid-perofring guns out there use the standard system so I'm not sure tht there is anything that could be too convincing.
The other benefit is increased consistency from the spring biased weights, more weights (4 vs 3) and using the longer rifle spring.
I know we have tons of A5 threads, but I wanted to share my thoughts and experiences and throw out a poll on the topic. My eyes gloss over when the same three or four guys start talking mechanical tech stuff in every A5 thread, its just beyond my comprehension so that probably plays a factor. Regardless, this is where I'm at currently.
Pros:
1. Increased reliability, decreased parts wear, and maybe recoil mitigation - though it is VERY debatable how much of a real/perceived benefit any of this is for the vast majority of shooters
2. Increased tune-ability based on available buffer weights
Cons:
1. Shit availability - if you're able to find everything in stock, its rarely all in the same place. The VLTOR tube doesn't have as many positions as the BCM or Magpul, so the latter are preferred. However, BCM's kit only comes with an A5-0, which is weird and somewhat pointless. The Springco Green SPring is also typically regarded as better, and again, is not sold in any kit that I'm aware of. On a good day, I'm ordering a buffer and tube from one place and the Springco from another. I'm pretty sure I've had to buy all three from separate vendors before. Then you add the castle nut and end plate, its just obnoxious.
2. Cost - piecing together all of the separate parts is probably around $125, at best. The BCM mil-spec kit is $57.95.
3. Extended OAL - not really a big deal in use, but my ARs are just barely too long to fit in the foam inside of my hard case, because of the A5.
4. Factory lower options - there are plenty of reasons for building your own lower, and I swap most stuff out of a standard LPK anyways. However, there are very few factory options with the A5 already installed and at least the BCM, from what I've seen, only comes with black furniture and a non-SOPMOD stock. I think there re even fewer complete rifles with them.
6. Proprietary parts - I'm all for spare parts, but if somehow you get caught with your pants down, most LGS will probably have standard carbine buffer parts on hand. Maybe they'll have a rifle tube and spring, but the buffers themselves stay pretty scarce.
Bottom line, with few people shooting FA and a growing demand for minimalist gas port sizes, I just don't see the increased performance as being worth it. Again, this has just been my experience. I haven't removed my current two yet, so if I'm way off base on the pros side, I'm up for some knowledge, but I think the vast majority of solid-perofring guns out there use the standard system so I'm not sure tht there is anything that could be too convincing.#4
SOLGW offers customizable lowers with A5 options. We also use the Sprinco green springs with those.
SOLGW allows you to choose many options for your lower. FCG, selectors, bolt catch, cerakote etc...
The A5 system is great in that it's more forgiving and less sensitive to input.
I'm seeing a lot of this minimalist gas port stuff, but I don't think it's a solution to anything.
It's nice to see more people paying attention to gas port math, but having your rifle on the ragged edge of working is a bad idea, IMO.
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Let me give you another choice option for your poll.. If building a rifle from scratch I would use A5 components again but I wouldn't retrofit a rifle that is running good as is.
Just throw some quarters in the buffer tube and use a std carbine buffer spring n buffer if you need a weekend fix
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I always seem to build from the ground up, so I end up with a rifle that simply costs an extra few dollars in the end. Not the biggest deal when looking at $1000 or more builds. I buy most parts blemished from Vltor, so the costs difference remains minimal. As far as a rifle going down, its quicker to go grab another rifle from the safe than parts from a store, and I'll just place an order online. Availability is it's own issue, but is getting better.
@Wake27,
I agree with your concerns over A5 and accept your viewpoint as perfectly valid from the end user perspective. My biggest complaint about A5 is using non-standard buffer tube and buffer. I'm not too concerned about A5 availability as you can almost always can find it in stock nowadays at Midway, BCM, SOLGW, and VLTOR itself. Price-wise it's not really an issue long term as it will probably cost an extra $20-40 realistically speaking.
Another HUGE Question for me is why VLTOR never offered a spacer for their tube? I would love to get one to be able to switch between A5 and a regular spring/buffer.
From the reliability perspective I'm extremely happy with A5. I don't think it's worth switching good quality mil-spec buffer tube to A5 unless there is a very specific use/purpose for it. However, for stripped lowers I don't see a downside except for keeping different parts.
On the other side of the spectrum I would say that Geissele 42 which is highly popular now is really not worth it (at least for me) as it also adds two proprietary components with questionable benefit/value over a milp-spec spring and buffer of proper weight.
A5 works great for me. I have two identical 11.5 SBRs, one with and one without an A4 system. Clear difference between the two rifles. Now both of them have an A5.
Not to sidetrack but the "minimalist" gas port thing is for people who shoot mil-spec vs shit ammo. I'm far from an ammo snob but I don't buy shitty Wolf or Tula unless its for an AK. My AR's get 5.56 NATO pressure loads. The trend of barrel makers to make over-gassed guns is for the cheap-asses and their shit ammo. If that's what you want to shoot, fine. But for those who prefer to use 5.56 NATO it would be nice to see a choice in port sizes given by the major manufacturers. To make barrels for the masses has been done for quite some time, but I'd prefer one made for mil-spec ammo. I believe some barrel manufacturers (or their end-buyers) have spec'd tighter gas ports for the more discriminating ammo users, and that is good to see. I hope that trend continues, with port sizes for both mil-spec as well as shit ammo.
Daniel Defense went from a 0.076 to a 0.069 on their 11.5" barrels and thats still aways from a minimalist or right on the ragged edge. Its probably damn near a perfect size gas port for the 11.5"
I'm very happy with the A5 performance but I consider it an enhancement rather than a must have.
Not to sidetrack but the "minimalist" gas port thing is for people who shoot mil-spec vs shit ammo. I'm far from an ammo snob but I don't buy shitty Wolf or Tula unless its for an AK. My AR's get 5.56 NATO pressure loads. The trend of barrel makers to make over-gassed guns is for the cheap-asses and their shit ammo. If that's what you want to shoot, fine. But for those who prefer to use 5.56 NATO it would be nice to see a choice in port sizes given by the major manufacturers. To make barrels for the masses has been done for quite some time, but I'd prefer one made for mil-spec ammo. I believe some barrel manufacturers (or their end-buyers) have spec'd tighter gas ports for the more discriminating ammo users, and that is good to see. I hope that trend continues, with port sizes for both mil-spec as well as shit ammo.
IMHO - nothing wrong with the Russian Tula/Wolf or any foreign ammo manufacturer. People know what they are buying and typically are fine with it. These are not a premium brands and never positioned themselves as such.
In my experience Russian/Ukranian/other former Soviet block steel cased ammo is more reliable and consistent (much better in fact) than any and all US re-manufactured brass ammo which are often touted as an alternative.
SOLGW has A5 kits where you can choose what buffer weight you want. I got one on sale for $100 as a present for someone else (he's very happy with it for his 12.5" Kino build). When I was shopping for A5 parts for a rifle of mine (which, admittedly was already running perfectly) I had to piece together a BCM extension, sprinco spring, and A5 weight from two or three different places, and the whole thing cost me like $155.
Mike, if you're reading this... please don't stop selling those A5 kits!
I never got into them, didn't see a need to. Like ED's thread, just go shoot what you have and don't fret over the latest whiz bang waazoo. A lot of this stuff reminds me of a buddy who tried getting me into 1911's. He said the best gun ever as long as they run, two rounds later his fell apart. Point is, people fiddle puck with their guns until they no longer work and wonder why.
I have one A5H2 set up on a rifle, and I like the idea of the rifle spring and buffer weight. I am just not skilled/practiced enough to take advantage of any performance benefit the A5 system offers or my upper does not let it shine.
I am good with buying carbine extensions with H2 buffers and spending the savings on ammo/reloading components.
RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 06:57
The A5 system is great in that it's more forgiving and less sensitive to input.
This.
I'm seeing a lot of this minimalist gas port stuff, but I don't think it's a solution to anything.
It's nice to see more people paying attention to gas port math, but having your rifle on the ragged edge of working is a bad idea, IMO.
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And this.
a very BAD idea indeed.
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RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 08:00
It’s not always about the immediate moment. I think it’s important to keep the long game in mind with regards to AR builds. That strategy says the A5 is the better more reliable choice, along with the other improvements that have been noted above. I’ve ran both side by side and the results spoke clearly to me. I do understand the mantra of “If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.” But if in the process of “fixing”, I can improve the performance and reliability of the weapon, which has a direct impact on longevity, then it’s an acceptable fix, it’s a win-win.
You can still watch the movie”10” on a VHS player, but I think most of us (who know what that movie is) would prefer it in high def streaming or Blu-Ray version. :)
So after swapping out my carbine systems with A5’s, every AR continued to run, just better in my opinion, as my experience had proven to me.
But to the chief complaint...Even if I have to shop 2-3 stores to source the parts, that’s no reason to turn away from something I view as a bona fide improvement. Maybe if I was used to buying all my rifle parts at single source, like BCM,I would find a reason to complain, but I don’t and so I won’t.
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I think for building a lower the A5 is a no brainer. It’s benafits are well worth it’s marginal increase in price.
That said, I’ve never pulled apart a factory stakes lower to install one. I just put a geiselle super 42 in it.
IMHO, the whole point of the A5 system is to mimic the rifle system.
The other benefit is increased consistency from the spring biased weights, more weights (4 vs 3) and using the longer rifle spring.
I think there’s something here.
A5 works great for me. I have two identical 11.5 SBRs, one with and one without an A4 system. Clear difference between the two rifles. Now both of them have an A5.
Have you tested with roughly equivalent weight buffers, A5 vs carbine? As in A5H1 vs H2?
I have one A5H2 set up on a rifle, and I like the idea of the rifle spring and buffer weight. I am just not skilled/practiced enough to take advantage of any performance benefit the A5 system offer or I have matched it with an upper that does not let it shine.
I am good with buying carbine extensions with H2 buffers and spending the savings on ammo/reloading components.
I think there is some validity to this
IMHO, the whole point of the A5 system is to mimic the rifle system.
I think there’s something to this.
All,
I am in the planning phase of conducting a scientifically controlled, single blinded study on this subject, and have been for several months. I have access to alumni of 3/75RR, SMU unit members, a professional scientist, and some Reserve/Guard Soldiers. I wish to compare A5 vs carbine based systems vs modified carbine based systems that use a biasing spring, measured objectively using a shot timer, eliminating as many variables possible.
Limiting factors include time available and endless schedule conflicts. I’m not sure 100% if or when I will complete this project. Also, N will be limited, and will be a snapshot of individual participants. But, I’m trying to make it happen.
My hypothesis is that the A5 results can be reproduced without the A5 RE.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
The A5 is worth it if you have a need for it: 1.) If you're trying to run a collapsible stock on a rifle gas system, 2.) If you have an over-gassed system that a standard buffer weight can't help, 3.) If you like to fiddle-**** with your guns.
Some will fall into category 2, most will probably fall into category 3 who should probably look into a different gas system (midlength, intermediate) or a different gas porting instead and solve the problem at it's root.
The A5 is worth it if you have a need for it: 1.) If you're trying to run a collapsible stock on a rifle gas system
I find the A5H2 buffer is more forgiving and gives a smoother recoil impulse than an H2 buffer regardless of barrel or gas system length, suppressed or unsuppressed.
2.) If you have an over-gassed system that a standard buffer weight can't help
Define "standard". Do you mean the CAR buffer most econo brands us? The H buffer Colt uses in their commercial 6920s? The H2 buffer used in the M4A1 Colt supplies to the military? Or the original rifle buffer.
When experimenting with gas drive, I found that buffer weight does almost nothing to correct the problems of over gassing. When testing to see what happens with the gas block turned down to smallest setting that still gave full function, I found the CAR, H & H2 all used the same gas setting. Yet recoil was harshest with the CAR buffer and smoothest with the H2.
3.) If you like to fiddle-**** with your guns
After doing just this, I've come to the conclusion that it saves time just to start with an A5 RE assembly with the A5H2 buffer & Sprinco green spring because you'll likely end there.
most will probably fall into category 3 who should probably look into a different gas system (midlength, intermediate) or a different gas porting instead and solve the problem at it's root.
This is quite true. If the gas drive isn't right, no amount of fussing with buffers & springs will solve anything.
I think if you run everything suppressed, the gain is much more noticeable and valuable. And I run everything with a can. When I bought my SR15, it ran perfect, with can I had lock back issues with Colt 20 rounders ( which are know to have weak springs so I found out) A5, problem solved.
They are worth it to me, nice but not necessary is how I would catagorize the A5.
PB
My hypothesis is that the A5 results can be reproduced without the A5 RE.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
I think your hypothesis is correct. There is no doubt that some combination of spring and buffer will replicate the results achieved by the A5 system.
The question, at least to me, will the cost be comparable?
I can get into the BCM A5 for 99.50; their Carbine RE kit runs 57.95, but doesn't come with a QD endplate. So if I compare prices of their std end plate ($4.00) and their QD end plate ($16.95) their is a $12.95 price differential. Either take that amount from the A5 kit or add that amount to the Carbine kit, the results are the same, a $28.60 price differential.
Both those systems come with the 'basic' buffers - A5H0 (3.8oz) and Carbine (3.0oz). We can get those weights together by replacing the Carbine buffer with an H buffer ($22.95 at BCM) but there is still the spring difference. Some have talked of using the G Super 42 but that comes with a proprietary buffer so you need the combo @ $65.00 to get to A5HO. Other folks talk of using a Springco Blue @$19.95.
The bottom line is using a Super 42 kit sets you back $65.00; using a H buffer and Springco Spring (Red or Blue) will set you back $42.90. Both options are above the initial $28.60 price differential.
You can go about building the systems in different ways, but to make a fair comparison you should source parts from the same vendor as much as possible, and make it plug and play.
A final thought. I use a heavy rifle buffer (home built) in my service rifle. If I switched from the A2 stock to an adjustable, I could go with the A5 and a A5H4 buffer at essentially the same weight for $59.95
or go with the carbine system and a PWS H4 buffer for $89.95 plus spring. Again, the price of components would seemingly make the A5 a better deal.
If the gas drive isn't right, no amount of fussing with buffers & springs will solve anything.
I won't say that the TDP is wrong, I just don't think that it's right. From everything that I've been able to gather over the years almost all of the issues with M4 patterened guns is related to or a result of an over gassed system (porting & dwell time).
If you're trying to run a collapsible stock on a rifle gas system
Is a rifle or A5 RE, spring and buffer really necessary with a rifle gas gun?
The SME posts I have read here lead me to believe that the A5 either shines with SBRs and suppressed guns or that the system is superior across the board.
Andy
Is a rifle or A5 RE, spring and buffer really necessary with a rifle gas gun?
The SME posts I have read here lead me to believe that the A5 either shines with SBRs and suppressed guns or that the system is superior across the board.
Andy
Necessary? I dunno. Seems to be what the A5 was originally designed for. Makes sense that longer travel and a potentially heavier buffer would slow things down/smooth things out in other guns.
Necessary? I dunno. Seems to be what the A5 was originally designed for. Makes sense that longer travel and a potentially heavier buffer would slow things down/smooth things out in other guns.
I agree that is why the A5 came to be (and why I have one in my single rifle).
I'm not sure I understood what you said, but the bolt carrier travels the same distance with Rifle, A5, and Carbine receiver extensions and buffers.
Andy
I assembled three A5 buffers from 4.5-7ish oz. While the A5 system is softer shooting than a carbine H system, the varied weights didn't seem to make much difference within the A5 system, in my 16" SR15 and 11.5" BCM SBR.
I think there’s something here.
Have you tested with roughly equivalent weight buffers, A5 vs carbine? As in A5H1 vs H2?
Yes.....
I'm surprised by the results in the poll, I knew people here liked it but didn't realize there was such a large difference in numbers between the groups. I do need to shoot my H-buffer lower side by side with one of my A5-2/3 lowers as I've never compared them directly. Maybe that will change my mind. But if I can't feel a softer recoil impulse, I'm probably going to file the A5 in the category of unnecessary and not worth the effort until I get into NFA stuff. Otherwise, I just don't see the benefit. And I honestly don't think there is anything else in that category for me besides the dust cover, BCG, and receivers themselves.
Also, I do realize that the vast majority of things on my "cons" list are tiny little bitch complaints. No denying that. I'm just saying that they still outweigh the benefits for me, as I don't have anything NFA and rotate ARs so often that I don't have a single one with 8k rounds on it. If either of those things were different, maybe I'd get it then.
I assembled three A5 buffers from 4.5-7ish oz. While the A5 system is softer shooting than a carbine H system, the varied weights didn't seem to make much difference within the A5 system, in my 16" SR15 and 11.5" BCM SBR.
I have a few A5 lowers and a couple extra buffers. I haven’t pulled a buffer apart but are there enough components to jumble together different weights?
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I agree that is why the A5 came to be (and why I have one in my single rifle).
I'm not sure I understood what you said, but the bolt carrier travels the same distance with Rifle, A5, and Carbine receiver extensions and buffers.
Andy
Sorry, I was also thinking in my head about the Surefire BCG within the context of fiddle-**** devices that don't really address the underlying gas issue.
Edit: I'm not really knocking the A5 or Surefire BCG, I understand that they were designed and used as "drop-in" parts for a (IMHO) "unoptimized" platform.
The purpose of the A5 system is not to reduce felt recoil.
That may be one of the byproducts, but not it's purpose.
The A5 system distributes that load over more wire...again, making it less sensitive to input. And by input I mean adding a suppressor or changing uppers etc.
The biasing spring in the buffer itself keeps the mass in the same position...so, when your bolt unlocks and the carrier begins to overcome that mass it's more consistent.
My approach to the rifle is that it works suppressed or unsuppressed without the need for adjustable anything, and to work in less than ideal scenarios. Worn rings, dry, fouled, debris, etc...
I also believe that everything starts at the gas port... you don't want the gun so overgassed that it's beating itself to death or creating issues suppressed..but you need enough gas to drive the gun even during those less an ideal scenarios. The A5 with a good port is really opening up the operational window of that rifle.
As an example... if you have a well tuned 16" mid gas gun, with a good gas port...and that's the config you intend to always run it, then you probably won't see much of a benefit from the A5 if you're running an H/H2 buffer.
If you're changing uppers, and adding and removing cans etc... I think you will.
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The purpose of the A5 system is not to reduce felt recoil.
That may be one of the byproducts, but not it's purpose.
The A5 system distributes that load over more wire...again, making it less sensitive to input. And by input I mean adding a suppressor or changing uppers etc.
The biasing spring in the buffer itself keeps the mass in the same position...so, when your bolt unlocks and the carrier begins to overcome that mass it's more consistent.
My approach to the rifle is that it works suppressed or unsuppressed without the need for adjustable anything, and to work in less than ideal scenarios. Worn rings, dry, fouled, debris, etc...
I also believe that everything starts at the gas port... you don't want the gun so overgassed that it's beating itself to death or creating issues suppressed..but you need enough gas to drive the gun even during those less an ideal scenarios. The A5 with a good port is really opening up the operational window of that rifle.
As an example... if you have a well tuned 16" mid gas gun, with a good gas port...and that's the config you intend to always run it, then you probably won't see much of a benefit from the A5 if you're running an H/H2 buffer.
If you're changing uppers, and adding and removing cans etc... I think you will.
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What is the optimal gas port for 16" guns?
In general I think it can be worth it, especially for suppressed ARs.
My two primary ARs which are nearly identical except barrel length (11.5 & 16) and optics (T-2 / NX8) have A5s.
But I have non-A5 setups as well that run fine - could they maybe benefit from an A5?
IDK and don't have a need to find out.
What is the optimal gas port for 16" guns?
The 100% truthful answer is: It depends.
If you want to specify a specific ammo, a cyclic range (suppressed and unsupressed), a specific can & mount, operating temperatures, lube, buffer system/weight, ect. I'll find out for you, instead of fiddle-****ing, we'll call it R&D. You can PM me your RFQ. ;)
The purpose of the A5 system is not to reduce felt recoil.
That may be one of the byproducts, but not it's purpose.
The A5 system distributes that load over more wire...again, making it less sensitive to input. And by input I mean adding a suppressor or changing uppers etc.
The biasing spring in the buffer itself keeps the mass in the same position...so, when your bolt unlocks and the carrier begins to overcome that mass it's more consistent.
My approach to the rifle is that it works suppressed or unsuppressed without the need for adjustable anything, and to work in less than ideal scenarios. Worn rings, dry, fouled, debris, etc...
I also believe that everything starts at the gas port... you don't want the gun so overgassed that it's beating itself to death or creating issues suppressed..but you need enough gas to drive the gun even during those less an ideal scenarios. The A5 with a good port is really opening up the operational window of that rifle.
As an example... if you have a well tuned 16" mid gas gun, with a good gas port...and that's the config you intend to always run it, then you probably won't see much of a benefit from the A5 if you're running an H/H2 buffer.
If you're changing uppers, and adding and removing cans etc... I think you will.
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This gets at my point. I know that there are mechanical benefits, but I doubt that I’ll ever see that benefit. My only ARs right now are 14.5/16” middies, all with BCM barrels except for two beater PSAs. As much as I’d love to get into SBRs, or maybe even pistols, I don’t know if I will because I don’t really control the state that I live in. Same with cans. And I’m typically lucky to get to the range once or twice a month. That may change at the end of the year, but I doubt it. So while my gripes are minor, less perceived recoil is probably the only thing that’ll ever actual affect me. At least for the next five years.
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What is the optimal gas port for 16" guns?Ours are .076 for mids.
I know there are some companies running smaller, and plenty running bigger.
We know that port works with shit ammo, good ammo, suppressed, unsuppressed, dry etc...
The lightest buffer we even offer H.
So, with H buffer or A5H2 buffer we see that combo does really well.
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RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 15:47
I have a few A5 lowers and a couple extra buffers. I haven’t pulled a buffer apart but are there enough components to jumble together different weights?
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Yes, I've made the buffer weight what I needed from spare titanium weights from other buffers. You just need a good scale so you get an accurate representation of an H2 or H3 or whatever you need.
I am offering an A5 Buy Back program. If you don't like your A5 then contact me about buying it from you.
RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 16:06
The A5 is worth it if you have a need for it: 1.) If you're trying to run a collapsible stock on a rifle gas system, 2.) If you have an over-gassed system that a standard buffer weight can't help, 3.) If you like to fiddle-**** with your guns.
Some will fall into category 2, most will probably fall into category 3 who should probably look into a different gas system (midlength, intermediate) or a different gas porting instead and solve the problem at it's root.
Oh you who are wise in the ways of A5's (Hey that kinda rhymes) So the majority of A5 users are fiddle-******'s who don't know what gas system to run or what barrel to buy. Really? Sorry man, but that sounds like the south end of a northbound bull to me. You're assuming the majority of people have a problem right out fo the gate. That hasn't been my experience at all.
RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 16:13
:jester::jester::jester::jester::jester::jester::sarcastic:
https://i.postimg.cc/QNbbYdn4/downsides.jpg
Oh you who are wise in the ways of A5's (Hey that kinda rhymes) So the majority of A5 users are fiddle-******'s who don't know what gas system to run or what barrel to buy. Really? Sorry man, but that sounds like the south end of a northbound bull to me. You're assuming the majority of people have a problem right out fo the gate. That hasn't been my experience at all.
No, I'm assuming that the majority of people are putting A5's on guns that were running fine to begin with in order to chase incremental recoil reduction or smooth out the impulse. And no, I don't think that 99% of people have any idea what gas port size or gas system length to get, that's literally an engineering decision governed by factors that vary from one individual to the next, most of us are either guessing, or trusting someone else (hopefully someone competent) to make that decision for them. If you're not fixing a diagnosed issue then you're likely fiddle-****ing. Not that there's anything wrong with that let's just call it what it is. I'm a self admitted fiddler, we can start a support group. :sarcastic:
I have one A5H2 set up on a rifle, and I like the idea of the rifle spring and buffer weight. I am just not skilled/practiced enough to take advantage of any performance benefit the A5 system offers or my upper does not let it shine.
I am good with buying carbine extensions with H2 buffers and spending the savings on ammo/reloading components.
Pretty much the situation I'm in: one A5 on a rifle, but H2 buffers and Sprinco springs on my carbines.
RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 17:44
No, I'm assuming that the majority of people are putting A5's on guns that were running fine to begin with in order to chase incremental recoil reduction or smooth out the impulse. And no, I don't think that 99% of people have any idea what gas port size or gas system length to get, that's literally an engineering decision governed by factors that vary from one individual to the next, most of us are either guessing, or trusting someone else (hopefully someone competent) to make that decision for them. If you're not fixing a diagnosed issue then you're likely fiddle-****ing. Not that there's anything wrong with that let's just call it what it is. I'm a self admitted fiddler, we can start a support group. :sarcastic:
Then I want to be the VP of Fiddle-****er's because I've put A5's on AR-10's, 300blk (SBR) and all my SBR's from 8.3 and up, plus a few 14.5's. I don't really overthink it, I just think in the long run it's beneficial - more to the points that Mike was making (SOLGW). Although I'd swear on a bottle of Tito's that when shot my 10.3 (BA Hanson) with the A5 it was a bit smoother vs. carbine RE etc. - but I ain't no scientist. I just shoot.
Diamondback
04-16-19, 18:17
Speaking for myself as a limited-experience builder...
<14.5" barrel pistols: A5 every time, especially temperamental stuff like 10.3's.
14.5P&W-16" barrel carbines: Standard CAR tube.
>16" barrel rifles: A5, with buffer weighted to match CAR H6 or Rifle--basically mimic the Rifle buffer system as close as possible while adding a telestock.
Speaking for myself as a limited-experience builder...
<14.5" barrel pistols: A5 every time, especially temperamental stuff like 10.3's.
14.5P&W-16" barrel carbines: Standard CAR tube.
>16" barrel rifles: A5, with buffer weighted to match CAR H6 or Rifle--basically mimic the Rifle buffer system as close as possible while adding a telestock.Why over complicate it?
That's the beauty of the A5. You could run it on anything.
Imagine having a lower that will run with any upper you throw on it.
The simplicity of that is worth noting.
It's like auto tune for shitty singers.
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vicious_cb
04-16-19, 18:37
This gets at my point. I know that there are mechanical benefits, but I doubt that I’ll ever see that benefit. My only ARs right now are 14.5/16” middies, all with BCM barrels except for two beater PSAs. As much as I’d love to get into SBRs, or maybe even pistols, I don’t know if I will because I don’t really control the state that I live in. Same with cans. And I’m typically lucky to get to the range once or twice a month. That may change at the end of the year, but I doubt it. So while my gripes are minor, less perceived recoil is probably the only thing that’ll ever actual affect me. At least for the next five years.
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Mr. Liberty is correct. If you are trying to use felt recoil as a measuring stick, you are trying to measure temperature with a ruler.
The truth is all the real system improvements made for the AR since the GWOT started are just running in the background, you wont ever notice that they're there until something goes wrong. Nor do you need to run things at optimum or even near optimum for them to work. If I secretly switched your midlengths to carbine lengths under your handguards do you really think you would notice right away or even have any problems?
Do you run dino oil or full synthetic in your car? Do you think someone would notice in their day to day driving whats in their car? Probably not. Does it mean dino oil is useless? No, but the science that proves synthetic is better is there. Unless you are one of those people that think full synthetic is all sham and people are just getting ripped off then I dont know what to tell you.
Most of us arent going to buy 2 of the same cars, put synthetic in one, dino in other and run them for 100k miles then tear the engines apart to see whats better for ourselves. Im just going to rely on trusted sources and my own ability to filter information for that. Just like how Im not going to get some registered lower a high speed camera and tens of thousands of rounds of ammo to test the A5 for myself.
Diamondback
04-16-19, 18:41
Why over complicate it?
That's the beauty of the A5. You could run it on anything.
Imagine having a lower that will run with any upper you throw on it.
The simplicity of that is worth noting.
It's like auto tune for shitty singers.
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Very true, sir--I'd personally prefer to go A5 On Everything, just saying it's a bit more important at the short end of the scale. Frankly, I wish the Pentagon would get a clue and standardize A5, relegating CAR to the realm of commercial cheapskates and retro clone-builders...
Mr. Liberty is correct. If you are trying to use felt recoil as a measuring stick, you are trying to measure temperature with a ruler.
The truth is all the real system improvements made for the AR since the GWOT started are just running in the background, you wont ever notice that they're there until something goes wrong. Nor do you need to run things at optimum or even near optimum for them to work. If I secretly switched your midlengths to carbine lengths under your handguards do you really think you would notice right away or even have any problems?
Do you run dino oil or full synthetic in your car? Do you think someone would notice in their day to day driving whats in their car? Probably not. Does it mean dino oil is useless? No, but the science behind it is there. Unless you are one of those people that think full synthetic is all sham and people are just getting ripped off then I dont know what to tell you.
Not debating whether it has merits or not. Just personally debating if it’s worth scouring the internet for weeks on end and buying five different components from six different vendors. Plus the other shit I mentioned.
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The purpose of the A5 system is not to reduce felt recoil.
That may be one of the byproducts, but not it's purpose.
The A5 system distributes that load over more wire...again, making it less sensitive to input. And by input I mean adding a suppressor or changing uppers etc.
The biasing spring in the buffer itself keeps the mass in the same position...so, when your bolt unlocks and the carrier begins to overcome that mass it's more consistent.
My approach to the rifle is that it works suppressed or unsuppressed without the need for adjustable anything, and to work in less than ideal scenarios. Worn rings, dry, fouled, debris, etc...
I also believe that everything starts at the gas port... you don't want the gun so overgassed that it's beating itself to death or creating issues suppressed..but you need enough gas to drive the gun even during those less an ideal scenarios. The A5 with a good port is really opening up the operational window of that rifle.
As an example... if you have a well tuned 16" mid gas gun, with a good gas port...and that's the config you intend to always run it, then you probably won't see much of a benefit from the A5 if you're running an H/H2 buffer.
If you're changing uppers, and adding and removing cans etc... I think you will.
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So do the mil guys change uppers depending on the mission/op?
vicious_cb
04-16-19, 19:01
Not debating whether it has merits or not. Just personally debating if it’s worth scouring the internet for weeks on end and buying five different components from six different vendors. Plus the other shit I mentioned.
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Well no one can answer that question except you.
I mean unless your budget is so tight that it comes down to: "should I buy an optic or should I buy an A5 system to put on my gun?" then I would say get the optic every time but thats not your situation. Its not like you have to build up 12 lowers before the a AWB so Id say if you were serious about optimizing your shit then suck it up princess.
I'd made the switch to pure fleet the A5 system years ago. Do you know how long that process took? YEARS. Why? because as long as my primary had an A5 I didnt care how long it took, I just waited for sales or the EE to convert the rest of my guns. The A5 isnt some critical component that you need an Amazon drone to deliver it within 24hrs.
I am offering an A5 Buy Back program. If you don't like your A5 then contact me about buying it from you.
Can I get in on this with you?
Well no one can answer that question except you.
I mean unless your budget is so tight that it comes down to: "should I buy an optic or should I buy an A5 system to put on my gun?" then I would say get the optic every time but thats not your situation. Its not like you have to build up 12 lowers before the new AWB so Id say if you were serious about optimizing your shit then suck it up princess.
I'd made the switch to pure fleet the A5 system years ago. Do you know how long that process took? YEARS. Why? because as long as my primary had an A5 I didnt care how long it took, I just waited for sales or the EE to convert the rest of my guns. The A5 isnt some critical component you need an Amazon drone to deliver it within 24hrs.
True. And I normally wouldn’t create a thread along these lines. However, the A5, and buffer system in general, is one of a few things that I’m 100% ok with having other people agree on what is best and I go with that. Some of the dudes here start talking about spring rates and throwing out sciency symbols and I just have no desire to want to learn that shit. Seeing how many people have responded to the poll in favor of the system is making me reconsider. If that many people think it poses that much of an advantage, maybe there is something to it.
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Meanwhile at the range--
--MistWolf was learning about gas systems, buffers and suppressors...
bobbytucson
04-16-19, 20:06
absolutely love the a5 system. have it on all my serious use rifles. they have been 100% dependable
Yes, I've made the buffer weight what I needed from spare titanium weights from other buffers. You just need a good scale so you get an accurate representation of an H2 or H3 or whatever you need.
I think you meant to say tungsten weights, not titanium.
Andy
Is a rifle or A5 RE, spring and buffer really necessary with a rifle gas gun?
No. I've run a 20" rifle gas upper with a carbine RE with good results. As good as upper was with the carbine RE however, it's even better with the A5.
Makes sense that longer travel...would slow things down/smooth things out in other guns.
The distance the BCG travels is the same whether it's a carbine, A5 or rifle RE. The advantage of the A5 over the carbine is the A5 gives the spring more room for compression. The rifle buffer gives the spring even more room.
I have a few A5 lowers and a couple extra buffers. I haven’t pulled a buffer apart but are there enough components to jumble together different weights?
Yes. When you pull one apart, take a photo or make a sketch showing how all the internal parts are arranged. There are enough weights, spacers & springs that it's easy to forget how everything is arranged.
The purpose of the A5 system is not to reduce felt recoil.
That may be one of the byproducts, but not it's purpose.
The A5 system distributes that load over more wire...again, making it less sensitive to input. And by input I mean adding a suppressor or changing uppers etc.
The biasing spring in the buffer itself keeps the mass in the same position...so, when your bolt unlocks and the carrier begins to overcome that mass it's more consistent.
My approach to the rifle is that it works suppressed or unsuppressed without the need for adjustable anything, and to work in less than ideal scenarios. Worn rings, dry, fouled, debris, etc...
I also believe that everything starts at the gas port... you don't want the gun so overgassed that it's beating itself to death or creating issues suppressed..but you need enough gas to drive the gun even during those less an ideal scenarios. The A5 with a good port is really opening up the operational window of that rifle.
As an example... if you have a well tuned 16" mid gas gun, with a good gas port...and that's the config you intend to always run it, then you probably won't see much of a benefit from the A5 if you're running an H/H2 buffer.
If you're changing uppers, and adding and removing cans etc... I think you will.
There's a lot of gold in the above post.
This gets at my point. I know that there are mechanical benefits, but I doubt that I’ll ever see that benefit.
My niece shot a variety of ARs at one range session as we fitted a variety of uppers to different uppers. She commented how much smoother anything attached to the A5 lower shot compared to the carbine lowers. What really got her attention (and of everyone else) is when the 20" upper was attached to the A5 lower. Everyone commented how flat the combination recoiled.
If you're not fixing a diagnosed issue then you're likely fiddle-****ing. Not that there's anything wrong with that let's just call it what it is. I'm a self admitted fiddler, we can start a support group. :sarcastic:
I prefer the term "tinkering" and consider myself a "tinkerer". I think we should start a support group. I can always use fresh ideas for another project.
Bottom line is this- Going from carbine RE/H2 buffer to an A5/A5H2 buffer isn't going from bad to good. It's going from good to better.
RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 21:02
I think you meant to say tungsten weights, not titanium.
Andy
You use tungsten, I use titanium. I also store my gold coins in my buffers.. NO ONE will ever find them there.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/dccbe5ce56688f7c23f3dc43d96504c4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190417/f632f1428178ba0488aedd475acedc8d.jpg
Okay you’re right I meant tungsten. Thanks for the heads up.
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You use tungsten, I use titanium. I also store my gold coins in my buffers.. NO ONE will ever find them there.
Okay you’re right I meant tungsten. Thanks for the heads up.
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8266827f-541d-4287-98ca-f3141ce9114b
For sure.
Can I get in on this with you?
RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 21:35
For sure.
I’m working the back channels just as an FYI.
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RobertTheTexan
04-16-19, 21:36
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8266827f-541d-4287-98ca-f3141ce9114b
That was classic 26. Classic.
And a funny movie. [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]
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I have it, tried it on a few ar’s. Dont notice a difference in recoil. Agreed with maybe starting from the beginning with it but would not change to it
I don't use the VLTOR A5 system in it's entirety. I use the BCM intermediate RE, Sprinco Green Spring and VLTOR A5H2 (5.3oz) Buffer for my 11.5 and 16 inch carbines. It works great in my 18 and 20 inch rifle setups as well.
I switched to this setup for no other reason other then to try it. So far so good, I really like it.
NYH1.
So do the mil guys change uppers depending on the mission/op?
Some do.
hollowplague
10-04-19, 11:20
Whats the downsides with this system?
PrivateCitizen
10-04-19, 11:39
Whats the downsides with this system?
Do you mean aside from the pros/cons of the initial post?
Friendly tip, as a new user understand that 90% of time on this forum is best as a research tool. This thread is only 6 pages long and considering the breadth of your question I'd guess you didn't read it, but …
From post #1:
Pros:
Increased reliability, decreased parts wear, and maybe recoil mitigation - though it is VERY debatable how much of a real/perceived benefit any of this is for the vast majority of shooters
Increased tune-ability based on available buffer weights
Cons:
Shit availability - if you're able to find everything in stock, its rarely all in the same place. The VLTOR tube doesn't have as many positions as the BCM or Magpul, so the latter are preferred. However, BCM's kit only comes with an A5-0, which is weird and somewhat pointless. The Springco Green SPring is also typically regarded as better, and again, is not sold in any kit that I'm aware of. On a good day, I'm ordering a buffer and tube from one place and the Springco from another. I'm pretty sure I've had to buy all three from separate vendors before. Then you add the castle nut and end plate, its just obnoxious.
Cost - piecing together all of the separate parts is probably around $125, at best. The BCM mil-spec kit is $57.95.
Extended OAL - not really a big deal in use, but my ARs are just barely too long to fit in the foam inside of my hard case, because of the A5.
Factory lower options - there are plenty of reasons for building your own lower, and I swap most stuff out of a standard LPK anyways. However, there are very few factory options with the A5 already installed and at least the BCM, from what I've seen, only comes with black furniture and a non-SOPMOD stock. I think there re even fewer complete rifles with them.
Proprietary parts - I'm all for spare parts, but if somehow you get caught with your pants down, most LGS will probably have standard carbine buffer parts on hand. Maybe they'll have a rifle tube and spring, but the buffers themselves stay pretty scarce.
noonesshowmonkey
10-04-19, 13:26
Let me give you another choice option for your poll.. If building a rifle from scratch I would use A5 components again but I wouldn't retrofit a rifle that is running good as is.
Page 1 of this thread pretty much handled most of the heavy lifting on the subject. If you have a carbine RIGHT NOW and it works, as in runs like a singer sewing machine in whatever conditions you intend to use it in, then why bother messing with things?
But.
If you are buying a fresh rifle, especially if you are building it from parts, there are a bunch of things that you can do to improve on the stock TDP design. Get a better barrel profile, use mid-gas, run an A5 system, consider an ambi lower, run an ambi safety, install a better trigger, get better coatings on your BCG, maybe get an enhanced BCG, use a different muzzle device than A2 in order to mount a suppressor... Many of these things are incremental improvements. When taken in total, they can dramatically increase reliability, ease of use, and the smoothness of operation.
Or, you can get a 6920, an optic, a white light, and a sling, then spend all available sheckles on ammo.
I say no. How is it better when it travels the same distance? I saw no difference between A5 and carbine with H2/chrome silicon spring.
Eta- with proper gas port sizing you dont need band aids.
I say no. How is it better when it travels the same distance? I saw no difference between A5 and carbine with H2/chrome silicon spring.
Eta- with proper gas port sizing you dont need band aids.
What you are saying is there is no difference between the fixed stock and the carbine because carrier travel is the same, but there is a difference which is the reason why the A5 was developed in the first place. But the difference does not matter as much with semi only use.
I say no. How is it better when it travels the same distance? I saw no difference between A5 and carbine with H2/chrome silicon spring.
Eta- with proper gas port sizing you dont need band aids.
And what is a proper gas port size? I read this a great deal but nobody actually says what they think it is.
Outlander Systems
10-06-19, 17:56
Depends on barrel length and ammo.
Generally speaking, you want the smallest port size possible that will still cycle, reliably, with your ammo.
And what is a proper gas port size? I read this a great deal but nobody actually says what they think it is.
Depends on barrel length and ammo.
Generally speaking, you want the smallest port size possible that will still cycle, reliably, with your ammo.
And how do you determine that given differences in environmental conditions, variances in powder lots, fouling and how you intend to use your rifle, target vs duty. You "tune" your gas port in Texas during the summer and then take that gun to Wyoming during the winter and I would bet money you are going to have issues. This gas port obsession is getting to the point we need to start stamping the size on the barrel.
This gas port obsession is getting to the point we need to start stamping the size on the barrel.
That would be super convenient. Personally, I think BCM’s middy is good, .076 IIRC because I don’t want it to only work with my ammo.
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And how do you determine that given differences in environmental conditions, variances in powder lots, fouling and how you intend to use your rifle, target vs duty. You "tune" your gas port in Texas during the summer and then take that gun to Wyoming during the winter and I would bet money you are going to have issues. This gas port obsession is getting to the point we need to start stamping the size on the barrel.
Oh, bloody hell! Gas port diameter isn't that particular. Colt has set their gas port for the 6920 at .0625" and it runs in spec ammo anywhere in the world in all conditions. This is what I mean when I say "properly gassed". A 6920 upper runs good with an H buffer, a bit smoother with an H2 and even smoother with an A5H2. I haven't tried it with a rifle buffer yet, but I expect it would run about the same as with the A5.
Outlander Systems
10-07-19, 08:33
It's really not. The big thing to watch out for is running some big Colt 10.5" .093 whale blowhole with a can, or, like my buddy found out over the weekend, running mouse fart .223 on a sub-0.07 middy with an H3 buffer.
TLDR; don't go to the ragged edge, and things will be fine.
Oh, bloody hell! Gas port diameter isn't that particular.
While all three systems travel the same distance, there are differences in the action springs and most importantly, the number of movable weights and spacers inside the buffers.
The A5 includes a biasing spring which greatly improves consistency.
I say no. How is it better when it travels the same distance? I saw no difference between A5 and carbine with H2/chrome silicon spring.
Eta- with proper gas port sizing you dont need band aids.
What you are saying is there is no difference between the fixed stock and the carbine because carrier travel is the same, but there is a difference which is the reason why the A5 was developed in the first place. But the difference does not matter as much with semi only use.
Sparky5019
10-07-19, 13:45
I have a couple and like Wake said, I do like the Magpul tube the best for the 10 position options. I agree that Sprinco makes good springs but honestly, I’m not sure how the green spring is supposed to be “better”. With A5H2 buffers in both the 11.5 suppressed and the unsuppressed 10.3 machine gun, both gas thump harder with the green spring installed over the mil spec spring. Again the only part changed for my evaluation was the spring.
I do like the smoother softer recoil impulse but just like others have said I don’t rush out to change them. Actually, I’m currently waiting on magpul tubes to be available again. Lol. I guess that made the availability case huh.
titsonritz
10-07-19, 13:51
For those that have not already read it...
VLTOR A5 Buffer System Overview (https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/vltor-a5-buffer-system-overview/?fbclid=IwAR3Z_dOmi1qWcuurmTVbqomZe19_HtL2JNmUfDNqplgXyQwER_cSS1PmhhU)
Worth a re-read, too.
For those that have not already read it...
VLTOR A5 Buffer System Overview (https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/vltor-a5-buffer-system-overview/?fbclid=IwAR3Z_dOmi1qWcuurmTVbqomZe19_HtL2JNmUfDNqplgXyQwER_cSS1PmhhU)
Ours are .076 for mids.
I know there are some companies running smaller, and plenty running bigger.
We know that port works with shit ammo, good ammo, suppressed, unsuppressed, dry etc...
The lightest buffer we even offer H.
So, with H buffer or A5H2 buffer we see that combo does really well.
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What do you feel is optimal for a 12.5 that is run suppressed and unsuppressed 50/50?
I have a couple and like Wake said, I do like the Magpul tube the best for the 10 position options. I agree that Sprinco makes good springs but honestly, I’m not sure how the green spring is supposed to be “better”. With A5H2 buffers in both the 11.5 suppressed and the unsuppressed 10.3 machine gun, both gas thump harder with the green spring installed over the mil spec spring. Again the only part changed for my evaluation was the spring.
I do like the smoother softer recoil impulse but just like others have said I don’t rush out to change them. Actually, I’m currently waiting on magpul tubes to be available again. Lol. I guess that made the availability case huh.
The green spring is stiffer. This means it takes more of a "hit" both directions, as it were.
CajunCourier
10-08-19, 09:11
I got the A5 system because I wanted to run a 20” rifle length gas Upper with a collapsible stock, and the A5 was developed specifically for that set up.
With Midlength or Carbine length 14.5”/16”, I’m sure there is a benefit but the standard carbine RE, buffer, and spring work just fine.
It’s like carbine vs midlength: is the Midlength an upgrade? Yes. Is midlength necessary to have a 100% reliable, combat-grade AR? No, Carbine length works just fine. So do Carbine RE’s.
In USMC testing, M16A4’s with the A5 buffer system had about 5,000 mean rounds between stoppages. That is a significant improvement even over the A2 RE and rifle buffer.
Sparky5019
10-08-19, 09:15
The green spring is stiffer. This means it takes more of a "hit" both directions, as it were.
Yeah. That’s what I noticed. Plus the stiffer the recoil/buffer spring the more time the cycle is spread over. So far I prefer the mil spec spring. I’ve had no issues with it so far so I see no reason to change out. It’s very noticeable in full auto; the gun runs hard and climbs a whole lot more.
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titsonritz
10-08-19, 12:55
I have a couple and like Wake said, I do like the Magpul tube the best for the 10 position options. I agree that Sprinco makes good springs but honestly, I’m not sure how the green spring is supposed to be “better”. With A5H2 buffers in both the 11.5 suppressed and the unsuppressed 10.3 machine gun, both gas thump harder with the green spring installed over the mil spec spring. Again the only part changed for my evaluation was the spring.
I do like the smoother softer recoil impulse but just like others have said I don’t rush out to change them. Actually, I’m currently waiting on magpul tubes to be available again. Lol. I guess that made the availability case huh.
The green spring is stiffer. This means it takes more of a "hit" both directions, as it were.
Their certified Chrome Silicon wirestock goes an additional Cryogenic Processing which is supposed to have an increased life span. IG swore by them and that is good enough for me. I'm not going to replace existing springs just the sake of replacing them but as they wear out they will be replaced with Sprinco springs and they are all I use on new builds.
What do you feel is optimal for a 12.5 that is run suppressed and unsuppressed 50/50?.069-.070
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PrivateCitizen
10-09-19, 11:38
.069-.070
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Does that happen to be the SOLGW size?
I only ask as the Faxon 12.5 carbine-length I have is pretty gassy (I think it is .80) … The A5 is the only thing that made it 'a good shooter' … but I'd probably pick a SOLGW up.
Incidentally … you guys are pretty transparent … take the lead and put these port size numbers on the website. with the product. The good will to/from the community and leadership would be sweet. The idea that these are 'proprietary' is lazy bullshit as far as I can tell.
Sparky5019
10-09-19, 11:43
Their certified Chrome Silicon wirestock goes an additional Cryogenic Processing which is supposed to have an increased life span. IG swore by them and that is good enough for me. I'm not going to replace existing springs just the sake of replacing them but as they wear out they will be replaced with Sprinco springs and they are all I use on new builds.
I know he did. I love the cryo processing and that’s one of the big reasons I use their extractor and ejector springs. If they made a “white” spring for the rifle action like they do the carbine, I’d be all into it. The gun just recoils harder with that stiffer spring. My gun doesn’t need any extra power to chamber rounds as I’m not slogging through mid or stripping rounds from 1000 round mags so the mil spec springs work great. I’d love to see a “white” mil spec A5 replacement from them. HINT, HINT SPRINCO!!!
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Interesting. I don't remember ever seeing anyone else comment that the green spring essentially produces more felt recoil. I don't think I've ever used the stock spring.
Interesting. I don't remember ever seeing anyone else comment that the green spring essentially produces more felt recoil. I don't think I've ever used the stock spring.
I can see why they would say that, but I still use it. I do have a Tubbs spring in one of my builds.
Sparky5019
10-09-19, 14:41
Interesting. I don't remember ever seeing anyone else comment that the green spring essentially produces more felt recoil. I don't think I've ever used the stock spring.
YMMV but try it out. Love to know what your results are.
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Walker_Texasranger
10-09-19, 17:07
All this A5 talk so I had to try one. Ordered a BCM lower with one today so let’s see.
All this A5 talk so I had to try one. Ordered a BCM lower with one today so let’s see.
Good choice.
Walker_Texasranger
10-09-19, 17:35
Good choice.
Thank you. So the BCM ships with the H0 buffer. Would there be a better one for a 14.5 BCM middy upper? What about Springs? I’ve heard talk of Sprinco green on here.
Thank you. So the BCM ships with the H0 buffer. Would there be a better one for a 14.5 BCM middy upper? What about Springs? I’ve heard talk of Sprinco green on here.
Yeah they’re weird about that. I’ve been using an A5-3 and Springco green on my BCMs for a few years. I don’t know if it’s the best solution, but it hasn’t given me any issues in either gun.
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Interesting note on A5 and Sprinco from: https://www.facebook.com/weaponoutfitters/posts/793066960468
59075
Interesting. I don't remember ever seeing anyone else comment that the green spring essentially produces more felt recoil. I don't think I've ever used the stock spring.
It does. Why? It takes more energy to compress. It's like a stiffer suspension on a car lets you feel bumps more keenly.
Walker_Texasranger
10-10-19, 07:01
I have no science behind this but I’m thinking the lighter spring but a heavier buffer is probably better but I don’t know.
It does. Why? It takes more energy to compress. It's like a stiffer suspension on a car lets you feel bumps more keenly.
Ohhh that made sense. I’ll have to play with it this weekend to see if I can feel a difference.
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jimmyheadgear
10-10-19, 07:33
All this A5 talk so I had to try one. Ordered a BCM lower with one today so let’s see.
Where did you order from?
Where did you order from?
Brownells had them in stock as of a day or two ago.
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jimmyheadgear
10-10-19, 07:45
Brownells had them in stock as of a day or two ago.
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Thanks. They seem to be one of the only places to have them in stock.
everready73
10-10-19, 08:03
Thanks. They seem to be one of the only places to have them in stock.
Ar15 safe space has the tube and then the spring/a5h2 buffer kit both in stock
https://ar15safespace.com/brand/vltor/
I just ordered a Holosun 507c from them for $229.99 which is about as cheap as i have seen. They are GTG
The A5 kit comes to $102.20 with the a5h2 when you add both items to cart. That is the only downside. You have to add stuff to cart to see if there is a discount on some items
BCM's 14.5 is a very soft shooting platform. Stick with the stock parts they give you, at least for now or if/when you experience any issues. Likely, you won't.
Thank you. So the BCM ships with the H0 buffer. Would there be a better one for a 14.5 BCM middy upper? What about Springs? I’ve heard talk of Sprinco green on here.
jimmyheadgear
10-10-19, 08:42
Ar15 safe space has the tube and then the spring/a5h2 buffer kit both in stock
https://ar15safespace.com/brand/vltor/
I just ordered a Holosun 507c from them for $229.99 which is about as cheap as i have seen. They are GTG
The A5 kit comes to $102.20 with the a5h2 when you add both items to cart. That is the only downside. You have to add stuff to cart to see if there is a discount on some items
Thanks for the link.
Walker_Texasranger
10-10-19, 09:56
Where did you order from?
Brownells. 10% off plus free shipping yesterday so got like 40 bucks+ off the complete lower.
jimmyheadgear
10-10-19, 10:14
Brownells. 10% off plus free shipping yesterday so got like 40 bucks+ off the complete lower.
How did you get the 10% off?
I run all A5's now: the main benefit is the increased reliability and consistency running many types of ammo. I think I can detect that the recoil pulse is smoother as well, but that's subjective and not something that in itself, I'd upgrade to A5 for. Ultimately, it's about one thing: reliability with many types of ammo whether running suppressed or unsuppressed.
BTW, Weaponoutfitters has a workaround for folks who hate trying to assemble an A5 kit by buying parts all over the place (like I had to :-)). Sometimes they don't list the Sprinco green in their dropdowns for this kit, but they still carry it and you can add it to your cart.
https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/vltor-a5-seven-position-buffer-kit.html
Walker_Texasranger
10-10-19, 10:19
How did you get the 10% off?
It was listed on the top of their website yesterday. I just kept checking and waiting because they do it pretty often. Usually it’s just free shipping but they throw the 10% up once in a while.
jimmyheadgear
10-10-19, 10:24
It was listed on the top of their website yesterday. I just kept checking and waiting because they do it pretty often. Usually it’s just free shipping but they throw the 10% up once in a while.
Ahh, gotcha thanks.
Jwknutson17
10-10-19, 11:03
What do you feel is optimal for a 12.5 that is run suppressed and unsuppressed 50/50?
Assuming a 12.5 Carbine barrel. Then .0650
Centurion carbine gas 12.5 barrel is that port size. Been running them for years.
titsonritz
10-10-19, 11:17
Assuming a 12.5 Carbine barrel. Then .650
Centurion carbine gas 12.5 barrel is that port size. Been running them for years.
Wow, I think 5/8" might be a little gassy. :sarcastic:
Jwknutson17
10-10-19, 11:51
Wow, I think 5/8" might be a little gassy. :sarcastic:
Yea yea.. .0650 :p
Yeah they’re weird about that. I’ve been using an A5-3 and Springco green on my BCMs for a few years. I don’t know if it’s the best solution, but it hasn’t given me any issues in either gun.
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It's not the spring, it's the extra heavy buffer. An A5H2 is the same weight as a rifle buffer. An A5H3 is heavier than that.
It's not the spring, it's the extra heavy buffer. An A5H2 is the same weight as a rifle buffer. An A5H3 is heavier than that.
What is the “it” you’re referring to?
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What is the “it” you’re referring to?
That's a damn good question. I don't even remember what I thought I was responding to, why or what my point was. I've been working long days since starting my new job and... I'm reaching for a "Don't Drink and Drive" simile here, but it eludes my grasp.
Somebody keep an eye on MW. I really don't want him wandering into the road, ranting to himself about inferior extractor springs...
;)
nightchief
10-11-19, 11:30
Which A5 buffer are you running with the Centurion 12.5?
Yea yea.. .0650 :p
Walker_Texasranger
10-15-19, 11:53
New BCM upper with the A5 was just picked up. Now the fun begins with choosing an upper and optic. I’ve got it narrowed down to a couple choices though.
Sparky5019
10-16-19, 11:42
FWIW, Magpul 10 pos tubes are back in stock at Magpul. Lol
titsonritz
10-16-19, 12:01
FWIW, Magpul 10 pos tubes are back in stock at Magpul. Lol
LOL, this is the first time I've personally seen Magpul in stock and BCM out of stock of A5 tubes.
Sparky5019
10-16-19, 12:03
LOL, this is the first time I've personally seen Magpul in stock and BCM out of stock of A5 tubes.
I asked magpul in January when they would be back in stock. They said 3w. [emoji2361] I asked again in April. Guess what...3w. I asked again in July and they finally told the truth that they were having QC issues with them and didn’t know. I expect them to be out by tonight. lol.
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everready73
10-16-19, 12:26
Primary arms has the BCM kits for $79.99
Somebody keep an eye on MW. I really don't want him wandering into the road, ranting to himself about inferior extractor springs...
;)
...It's comforting to know you boys have my back..
...It's comforting to know you boys have my back..
A friend of a coworker just fixed his PWS by installing Colt extractor and ejector parts in his bolt, so keep up the good fight.
Walker_Texasranger
11-16-19, 18:19
I put an A5H1 in my 14.5 BCM today to try it from an A5HO. Worked the same with my normal Wolf Gold.
I tried some PMC and Tula to try weak ammo in it and ejection was still great and it all locked back on empty mags.
I put an A5H1 in my 14.5 BCM today to try it from an A5HO. Worked the same with my normal Wolf Gold.
I tried some PMC and Tula to try weak ammo in it and ejection was still great and it all locked back on empty mags.
I’ve had an A5-3 and green spring in both of my BCMs for a few thousand rounds, often shooting weaker .223. They never felt overgassed to me so I was surprised how heavy I could push that buffer.
ETA - I just realized this is my thread, so I’m sure I’ve said that a few times already.
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Walker_Texasranger
11-16-19, 20:29
I’ve had an A5-3 and green spring in both of my BCMs for a few thousand rounds, often shooting weaker .223. They never felt overgassed to me so I was surprised how heavy I could push that buffer.
ETA - I just realized this is my thread, so I’m sure I’ve said that a few times already.
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Are they 14.5 middies? I ask because that’s probably the most undergassed option. I’ll try an A5-2 though and don’t expect any problems.
PMC was stupid smooth though. Wolf Gold feels like a 308 compared to it lol.
vicious_cb
11-16-19, 22:13
Are they 14.5 middies? I ask because that’s probably the most undergassed option. I’ll try an A5-2 though and don’t expect any problems.
PMC was stupid smooth though. Wolf Gold feels like a 308 compared to it lol.
I run an A5H3 with 14.5 Hodge barrel which has a gas port a hair smaller than BCM. It runs with everything from wolf .223 to heavy 5.56 loads.
I run an A5H3 with 14.5 Hodge barrel which has a gas port a hair smaller than BCM. It runs with everything from wolf .223 to heavy 5.56 loads.
I assume that’s not one of the barrels optimized for 855A1?
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Are they 14.5 middies? I ask because that’s probably the most undergassed option. I’ll try an A5-2 though and don’t expect any problems.
PMC was stupid smooth though. Wolf Gold feels like a 308 compared to it lol.
Yup. One is the ELW-F from their early runs with the original KMR and the other is a newer ELW BFH.
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vicious_cb
11-16-19, 23:01
I assume that’s not one of the barrels optimized for 855A1?
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There were never any different ported barrels in 14.5.
There were never any different ported barrels in 14.5.
I don’t have the ads off hand but that’s definitely not what vendors were saying. Unless it was only 12.5s but I feel like I would’ve remembered that.
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There were never any different ported barrels in 14.5.
There have been several iterations of the 14.5.
vicious_cb
11-17-19, 00:35
There have been several iterations of the 14.5.
You mean the DD vs FN versions? Ive only used the FN version, afaik the FN's only had 1 gas port size.
You mean the DD vs FN versions? Ive only used the FN version, afaik the FN's only had 1 gas port size.
FN has now had 4 port sizes in the 14.5" length. One of which only 2 or 3 existed, to be fair.
vicious_cb
11-17-19, 10:48
FN has now had 4 port sizes in the 14.5" length. One of which only 2 or 3 existed, to be fair.
Never heard about the other ones, I purchased from the first batch when individual barrels when they became available for sale and the gas ports havent deviated in the 14.5's since then. The 12.5's newest batch are the only ones Ive heard where the gas ports changed.
Never heard about the other ones, I purchased from the first batch when individual barrels became available for sales and the gas ports havent deviated in the 14.5's since then. The 12.5's newest batch are the only ones Ive heard where the gas ports changed.
There have been multiple ports for the 14.5s, although I am not sure who all got them, and how many of each were produced. The very first commercial run was 0.073, as I recall.
vicious_cb
11-17-19, 11:12
There have been multiple ports for the 14.5s, although I am not sure who all got them, and how many of each were produced. The very first commercial run was 0.073, as I recall.
The more you know...Anyway Im not sure why people are making this "optimized for M855A1" a big deal, seems like they dont understand what that even means. Pretty sure the smaller sizes were for suppressed use and M855A1 hasent been that hot for a long time.
If someone says I dont like this barrel because I dont shoot M855A1 Ill just roll my eyes and relegate your opinion to the retard bin.
The more you know...Anyway Im not sure why people are making this "optimized for M855A1" a big deal, seems like they dont understand what that even means. Pretty sure the smaller sizes were for suppressed use and M855A1 hasent been that hot for a long time.
If someone says I dont like this barrel because I dont shoot M855A1 Ill just roll my eyes and relegate your opinion to the retard bin.
That’s literally how everyone describes them, including the retailers. It just means that their gas ports are on the small side because A1 is still hot and may not work with weak .223.
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vicious_cb
11-17-19, 12:09
That’s literally how everyone describes them, including the retailers. It just means that their gas ports are on the small side because A1 is still hot and may not work with weak .223.
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That was not a dig on you BTW. I should probably blame the little bullet point about M855A1 that people put on their websites. Ive seen entire threads about it even when the gas port sizes are readily available online.
Im starting to doubt that a 0.001 reduction in gas port size vs the BCM makes any difference whatsoever. Besides the A5 system, Ive tested this barrel with carbine to H3 buffers and it functioned fine.
That’s literally how everyone describes them, including the retailers. It just means that their gas ports are on the small side because A1 is still hot and may not work with weak .223.
Pretty much.
The only .223 I fire occasionally is 64gr Gold Dot. That is a good load and seems to have a little more "spunk" to it (yes, I realize it's trying to quantify mouse-gun recoil) but other than that it's all 5.56NATO
stuff I have. From what I've read A1 has indeed been brought down pressure-wise from the original loading but is still a tad hotter than it's predecessor good ol' M855. Any of the "latest-greatest" I've shot has been from a carbine-length buffer tube and spring, with an H2 buffer. I would imagine that the A5 would work well with spicier ammo.
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