View Full Version : Reason #468 Why We Shouldn't Be Doing Any Business With Vietnam...
Lots of people like to say "the war is over, it's time to move on", but that isn't how the communist government of Vietnam see's things.
In 1963 West Point graduate and Green Beret James "Nick" Rowe was take prisoner in Vietnam. He was held prisoner for 5 years, most of it spent in a 3x4x6 foot bamboo cage. When it was discovered that he was actually an intelligence officer his captors ordered his execution. And when he was walked deep in the jungle to be shot, his guards were distracted by a US helicopter and Rowe was able to overpower them and escape. He was rescued on Dec. 31, 1968 when he managed to signal a helicopter.
In 1981 he took everything he learned from his time as a POW, his successful 5 year deception where he passed himself off as a civil engineer for the military and his successful escape from an execution detail to help design and build the SERE program for the US military.
And it was at this point when the people who say "the war is over, it's time to move on" think that should have been the end of it.
But in 1989 while working with the Philippine government, the New People's Army - a communist insurgency that threatened to overthrow the existing government, targeted him for assassination along with several other prominent individuals. On April 21, 1989 his vehicle was ambushed and shot 21 times and Rowe was killed when he was shot in the head.
Communists never seem to think "the war is over, time to move on."
We should also keep in mind that the current communist government is the exact same government that locked Rowe in a bamboo cage for 5 years and then ordered his execution. Today Vietnam is often found on Top Ten lists of best places to retire in the world and many US companies have moved their production facilities to Vietnam.
MountainRaven
04-16-19, 00:27
So we should refuse to forgive Vietnam for something some Filipinos did. Got it.
So we should refuse to forgive Vietnam for something some Filipinos did. Got it.
YOU WEREN'T THERE, MAAAAAN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTgXnDZoYNA
So we should refuse to forgive Vietnam for something some Filipinos did. Got it.
Actually we should refuse to forgive Vietnam for what they did to Rowe and we should remember communists, like terrorists, kill for political and ideological reasons. While Hanoi may not have orchestrated the assassination, Rowe was killed because he escaped from Hanoi and became a symbol of the enemy.
But just as Iran is the same Iran that took US hostages, and indeed some of the actual hostage takers are now part of the current Iranian government, the Vietnam today is the same government that committed all manner of war crimes against US POWs. We should have nothing to do with them, the fact that we are improving their economy and quality of life is offensive.
I first learned of this American hero while attending a course at JFKSWCS. COL Rowe wrote one of the best books I've ever read, Five Years to Freedom, about his time in captivity. It is an absolutely amazing survival story. As you'd expect, it's extremely instructional, but it reads like a novel.
To clarify, COL Rowe was held neither in Hanoi nor by the NVA. For his entire 5 years as a prisoner, he was held in small jungle camps (and moved often) in extreme southern Vietnam, in what was then called IV Corps, by VietCong forces. This is an important distinction, and it is discussed in the book, especially given the time frame of his captivity relative to the rest of the war's history (and the friction between leadership in Hanoi and VC leadership in SVN.
But I appreciate how you feel Steyr. I'm conflicted, but every time I re-ead that book, my anger towards COL Rowe's captors is renewed.
Semper Fi.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
It took almost a full two generations for a lot of world war II vets to get past the atrocities of Germany and Japan. I imagine we need a few more years to let some of the wounds heal over before a lot of older Americans feel comfortable about Vietnam. That said, hundreds and hundreds of Vietnam vets have gone to Vietnam and made peace with the previous enemy, so I think they are trying hard to getting a better place with relationships.
I agree it is a moral challenge.
People think I’m weird for detesting Japanese and German automobiles. “They’re so reliable.” “There’s none more refined.” “They’re built right here!” I know where that money eventually trickles back to and I know what both of those nations and families did just 75 years ago- not just to American’s, including 5 from my family, but to the world.
Nightvisionary
04-16-19, 10:43
At what point do you move on and make nice then? Should we then sever relations with the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, Russia, Libya, China, North Korea, Panama, Mexico, Canada, U.S. Southern States, Morocco, American Indians, Algiers, Malaysia, Fiji, Phillipines, Nicaragua, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Austria, Hungry, Turkey, Bulgaria, Iraq, Yugoslavia etc etc?
Communism is what he is referring to, not necessarily Viet-Nam as a nationality.
Communism is a cancer, pure and simple it infects and corrupts everything it contacts.
Physically, mentally, spiritually, it is poison, period.
Socialism is Communism in the early stage.
Nightvisionary
04-16-19, 11:52
Communism is what he is referring to, not necessarily Viet-Nam as a nationality.
Communism is a cancer, pure and simple it infects and corrupts everything it contacts.
Physically, mentally, spiritually, it is poison, period.
Socialism is Communism in the early stage.
Very true but a open or closed relationship with Vietnam is not going to halt or even slow the eventual complete adoption of socialism and oligarchal collectivism in what we now call the United States. The machinery moving that forward was put in place long before we sent troops to Vietnam.
Yes ! See how it has progressed to the point our national survival is in doubt because of our lack of will.
" Let's just move on "
Ok. So then you are saying that one would only in vain search your home looking to find a single "made in China" label anywhere?
People think I’m weird for detesting Japanese and German automobiles. “They’re so reliable.” “There’s none more refined.” “They’re built right here!” I know where that money eventually trickles back to and I know what both of those nations and families did just 75 years ago- not just to American’s, including 5 from my family, but to the world.
How do you feel about owning German guns like HKs? What about Glocks? They're an Austrian made gun, but during WW2 Austria was part of the Reich, and men of Austrian descent served in the wehrmacht and the SS and killed a lot of Americans and others.
I will say this, Vietnam has actually been pretty cool despite the war. They rarely piss and moan despite the retarded kids from defoliants, the permanent altering of their gene pool by black and white soldiers, and the unexploded ordnance that still wastes people.
Do I trust them? Naaah, but they are pretty cool about it. Not like the Japanese who cry every August about the atom bombing or all these other boohoo countries who got some red white and blue shoved up their ass
The Vietnamese actually don’t run their mouths too much snd if you can name me a place that to this day has a numbah one love long time not too beaucoup then I’d like to hear it.
So......respect.
That said, nobody is taking my kraut space magic guns away. Ever.
telecustom
04-16-19, 13:59
I knew Nick before he was taken from us. He was an outstanding person that made a huge impact my life when I was a kid.
I was heartbroken when he was killed.
At what point do you move on and make nice then? Should we then sever relations with the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, Russia, Libya, China, North Korea, Panama, Mexico, Canada, U.S. Southern States, Morocco, American Indians, Algiers, Malaysia, Fiji, Phillipines, Nicaragua, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Austria, Hungry, Turkey, Bulgaria, Iraq, Yugoslavia etc etc?
Germany and Japan got new governments. If we simply left after liberating France and Germany was still a NSDAP government, should we be helping them? Retiring there? Moving jobs there to help their economy?
Communism is what he is referring to, not necessarily Viet-Nam as a nationality.
Communism is a cancer, pure and simple it infects and corrupts everything it contacts.
Physically, mentally, spiritually, it is poison, period.
Socialism is Communism in the early stage.
Yes, and as someone pointed out, it was actually the VC rather than Hanoi. But despite assertions to the contrary "global communism" is a thing and he was targeted for assassination because of who he was and what he did in Vietnam.
The message was clear, communism will eventually get you.
*
Very true but a open or closed relationship with Vietnam is not going to halt or even slow the eventual complete adoption of socialism and oligarchal collectivism in what we now call the United States. The machinery moving that forward was put in place long before we sent troops to Vietnam.
Well there is that issue. Communism was apparently deeply entrenched in the USA by the early 1850's when Carl Schurz, Franz Sigel, Alexander Schimmelfennig, Fritz Anneke, Ludwig Blenker, and other communist 48'ers landed on our shores while running for their lives after their failed European revolutions in 1848 and became instant hits in US politics and business.
There seem to be an increasing number of Bellicose members that just want to fight about everything.
Anybody else notice this trend or am I just daft?
Lots of threads get locked up because we can't seem to disagree with each other without the vitriol
and personal affronts , sad that.
Thanks for posting amigo...Nicky Rowe is a hometown hero & our 3rd McAllen High School was named in his honor, along with renaming one of our main street's in his name.
Awards:
Purple Heart
Silver Star
Bronze Star Medal
Legion of Merit
National Defense Service Medal
Vietnam Service Medal
Meritorious Service Medal
American Patriot Award
first we should quit doing any business with NY or LA or Hollywood or the bay area or Chicago or Starbucks or Seattle or ... enemies from within
start with our own communists first !
but Vietnam seems to be quite the 3rd world mess of hate and Ok and love of the US which is what makes it kinda scary in a way :) since yeah pockets of nice with pockets or places of pure horror along with areas that are just Ok so ya really do not know or who is against you or OK with you ? that is what I see in general
google up advchina they had a couple vids in nam doing some touring interesting to hear that viewpoint
ots of places I reckon we should not be supporting but we do (we as in gov)
We deal openly with the ChiComs, and we fought them to a standstill in the early 1950's. Many Americans dead as a result.
From what I have read and heard, Vietnam is far ahead of actually being friendly towards us than the ChiComs, and our conflict with them is more fresh than the one with their northern neighbor. Also, an enemy of my enemy is my friend (like it or not) does indeed play into our foreign relations scheme.
Ok. So then you are saying that one would only in vain search your home looking to find a single "made in China" label anywhere?
There is, and I wish shit at Walmart was all "Made in the USA" but it isn't. But the big difference is I'm not saying "Yay China" or thinking people should retire there.
We deal openly with the ChiComs, and we fought them to a standstill in the early 1950's. Many Americans dead as a result.
From what I have read and heard, Vietnam is far ahead of actually being friendly towards us than the ChiComs, and our conflict with them is more fresh than the one with their northern neighbor. Also, an enemy of my enemy is my friend (like it or not) does indeed play into our foreign relations scheme.
A key difference is we don't need anything from Vietnam. Let their economy die from the communism they demanded. We don't need to get along because they aren't a nuclear power. We can get cheap stuff made in Bangladesh or a hundred other places. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia can all go F themselves.
But if they can find any Monty's that are still alive, we can pay $100 for each of them that wish to become US citizens. But other than that VN can FOAD. Let them reap it.
Very true but a open or closed relationship with Vietnam is not going to halt or even slow the eventual complete adoption of socialism and oligarchal collectivism in what we now call the United States. The machinery moving that forward was put in place long before we sent troops to Vietnam.
Truth.
We have far more to be concerned about the cancer of communism/authoritarian socialism within our own country than external sources.
However, I don’t think they should be “most favored nation” trading status either. And we shouldn’t be allowing US tech companies to transfer knowledge and tooling there either. Many, many American engineers have helped China leap ahead in technology and thereby capability and resources.
Truth.
We have far more to be concerned about the cancer of communism/authoritarian socialism within our own country than external sources.
However, I don’t think they should be “most favored nation” trading status either. And we shouldn’t be allowing US tech companies to transfer knowledge and tooling there either. Many, many American engineers have helped China leap ahead in technology and thereby capability and resources.
Exact thing could be said about China and Clinton granting similar status as well as lost hard drives full of classified material. And here we are again, helping create a future potential adversary. I'd rather help boost the economy of a country that doesn't hate us, whose fathers didn't recently savage our soldiers and discard their remains like so much garbage.
Not saying we need to turn it into a sweat shop but Singapore would be an ideal candidate for cost effective labor. They are very business friendly and do things in a cost effective way. Also Thailand is another good candidate, if we let them make a few more things for us perhaps they would be able to stop pimping their children all day long.
I'd rather buy goods made or assembled there than Vietnam, China, Pakistan or a lot of other places.
MountainRaven
04-17-19, 02:19
According to Pew, circa 2017, Vietnam is the US's number 1 fan, with 84% of Vietnam viewing the US favorably. (Our number 2 fan is Israel at 81%. The next ones - Poland, Hungary, the Philippines, Nigeria - are in the 70s and it drops rather rapidly from there. By comparison, the people of our closest and least ironic ally in the Middle-East that isn't Israel, Jordan, hate our guts with only 15% viewing the US favorably. Most US allies' populations sit around 50-60% favorably viewing the US.)
71% of Vietnamese think it's a good thing that US ideas and customs are spreading in Vietnam. (Japan and the Philippines tie for third at 62% each.)
69% of Vietnamese like American ideas about democracy (Vietnam is finally not ichiban, here, taking second to South Korea's 78%).
(Source (https://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/26/tarnished-american-brand/).)
So, yes. Those darned Vietnamese hate us and we're simply helping prop up a future enemy. A people who have spent most of the last century or more admiring the US. Who died in droves, in their country, at the hands of Americans and America's allies. Nosirree, it's we Americans who suffered the real losses. Sure, it was only a fraction of the losses they suffered, in a conflict our politicians chose and the American people (for a time) supported. We are, therefore, just and righteous for hating the Vietnamese people as a whole, while totally forgiving the American politicians, general officers, and public (only the latter of which have ever expressed any sort of remorse) for sending, supporting, and failing to properly lead the American fighting man in Vietnam. How dare those slant-eyed bastards resist the superior intellect of the white American (who the Vietnamese love and admire, except when he's trying to get them killed)! :jester:
ETA: I forgot that 86% of Vietnamese view Americans, not just the country, but the people, favorably. That ties them with the South Korea for number one (or two, depending on how you want to do it). The Philippines are next at 85%. And Sweden at 80%. Canadians view Americans less favorably than French, Brits, Dutch, Poles, Vietnamese, Koreans, Filipinos, Japanese, Australians, Israelis, and Nigerians. Among others.
Only 43% of Canadians view the US favorably. 58% of Canadians think the spread of US ideas and customs are bad. 55% of Canadians dislike American ideas about democracy. You should really be hating the Canadians.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-17-19, 02:25
I don't know about all of this. I have been all over that region and I truly loved the experience. We'll be vacationing to Vietnam in the next few years. I have been to many countries that some would consider anti-American values, and the people have been nothing but kind and welcoming.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-17-19, 02:27
When I was in Cuba last year, I realized that countries that are seemingly against America need one thing....lots and lots of America. They need our media, our products, and our dollars. That CHANGES countries fundamentally.
When I was in Cuba last year, I realized that countries that are seemingly against America need one thing....lots and lots of America. They need our media, our products, and our dollars. That CHANGES countries fundamentally.
I really don't think they need "our" media.
We are being (or have already been) destroyed from within.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-17-19, 06:36
I really don't think they need "our" media.
I'm assuming you've been then, and talked to real Cubans, but ones different than the many I met who are currently paying for smuggled flash drives of local Miami programming at great personal risk. If not, what an odd thing to post.
I've only ever been to 20 or 30 countries though, so please enlighten me.
I'm assuming you've been then, and talked to real Cubans, but ones different than the many I met who are currently paying for smuggled flash drives of local Miami programming at great personal risk. If not, what an odd thing to post.
I've only ever been to 20 or 30 countries though, so please enlighten me.
People want all sorts of things. I don't need to go anywhere to talk to anyone to figure out our media is less than honest.
I am sure their media lies to them. Just because our media tells a different lie than their media doesn't change the fact it is a lie.
A key difference is we don't need anything from Vietnam. Let their economy die from the communism they demanded. We don't need to get along because they aren't a nuclear power. We can get cheap stuff made in Bangladesh or a hundred other places. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia can all go F themselves.
But if they can find any Monty's that are still alive, we can pay $100 for each of them that wish to become US citizens. But other than that VN can FOAD. Let them reap it.
But we do. Maybe not "need", but it's no secret that they are not particularly friendly with China, and having a political and strategic alliance with them at regent is very beneficial. And their economy is getting closer to what China's economy has become, they may be Communists, but they sure enjoy the benefits of capitalism.
People want all sorts of things. I don't need to go anywhere to talk to anyone to figure out our media is less than honest.
I am sure their media lies to them. Just because our media tells a different lie than their media doesn't change the fact it is a lie.
I think the media LowSpeed_HighDrag was referring to was something like Star Wars, not CNN.
What kills me is that our government is negotiating with the Taliban in Afghanistan when they should be eradicating them.
If we don't want A-stan to return to a Taliban run shithole then the U.S. is gonna need to keep troops there for the next 50+ years similar to how we've been in South Korea for 5 generations. That's what it will take in A-stan, several generations being taught what Liberty and Justice and Democracy represent and mean. Otherwise it will revert back to what it was pre-9/11.
What kills me is that our government is negotiating with the Taliban in Afghanistan when they should be eradicating them.
If we don't want A-stan to return to a Taliban run shithole then the U.S. is gonna need to keep troops there for the next 50+ years similar to how we've been in South Korea for 5 generations. That's what it will take in A-stan, several generations being taught what Liberty and Justice and Democracy represent and mean. Otherwise it will revert back to what it was pre-9/11.
The problem is that Islam is incompatible with Liberty and Justice and Democracy.
What kills me is that our government is negotiating with the Taliban in Afghanistan when they should be eradicating them.
If we don't want A-stan to return to a Taliban run shithole then the U.S. is gonna need to keep troops there for the next 50+ years similar to how we've been in South Korea for 5 generations. That's what it will take in A-stan, several generations being taught what Liberty and Justice and Democracy represent and mean. Otherwise it will revert back to what it was pre-9/11.
Saudis and others would have to be knocked down also for that to work.
Nightvisionary
04-17-19, 10:06
What kills me is that our government is negotiating with the Taliban in Afghanistan when they should be eradicating them.
If we don't want A-stan to return to a Taliban run shithole then the U.S. is gonna need to keep troops there for the next 50+ years similar to how we've been in South Korea for 5 generations. That's what it will take in A-stan, several generations being taught what Liberty and Justice and Democracy represent and mean. Otherwise it will revert back to what it was pre-9/11.
There is a line of demarcation with state actors in Korea. None of that exists in Afghanistan. 2000 years of history do not support the probability of success. If I had to place my bets Americans including everyone here will disavow Liberty, Justice, democracy and the 2A long before the people of Afghanistan will embrace those alien principles. The Taliban didn't execute 9/11 they just harbored the Saudi prince that did and the founders of this country warned us of the dangers of foreign entanglements. 20 years is enough.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-17-19, 13:25
People want all sorts of things. I don't need to go anywhere to talk to anyone to figure out our media is less than honest.
I am sure their media lies to them. Just because our media tells a different lie than their media doesn't change the fact it is a lie.
MEDIA is one of those interesting words, one with many definitions and uses. Surely, you cannot think that any member of this forum would advocate our NEWS media as being any more genuine or honest than any of the dictatorship ruled countries.
Print, online, and film media: read TV Shows, YouTube, Hollywood movies, are what the people are clamoring for. Infusing that into their system would show them a world that their NEWS media has been lying to them about their entire lives.
According to Pew, circa 2017, Vietnam is the US's number 1 fan, with 84% of Vietnam viewing the US favorably. (Our number 2 fan is Israel at 81%. The next ones - Poland, Hungary, the Philippines, Nigeria - are in the 70s and it drops rather rapidly from there. By comparison, the people of our closest and least ironic ally in the Middle-East that isn't Israel, Jordan, hate our guts with only 15% viewing the US favorably. Most US allies' populations sit around 50-60% favorably viewing the US.)
71% of Vietnamese think it's a good thing that US ideas and customs are spreading in Vietnam. (Japan and the Philippines tie for third at 62% each.)
69% of Vietnamese like American ideas about democracy (Vietnam is finally not ichiban, here, taking second to South Korea's 78%).
(Source (https://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/26/tarnished-american-brand/).)
So, yes. Those darned Vietnamese hate us and we're simply helping prop up a future enemy. A people who have spent most of the last century or more admiring the US. Who died in droves, in their country, at the hands of Americans and America's allies. Nosirree, it's we Americans who suffered the real losses. Sure, it was only a fraction of the losses they suffered, in a conflict our politicians chose and the American people (for a time) supported. We are, therefore, just and righteous for hating the Vietnamese people as a whole, while totally forgiving the American politicians, general officers, and public (only the latter of which have ever expressed any sort of remorse) for sending, supporting, and failing to properly lead the American fighting man in Vietnam. How dare those slant-eyed bastards resist the superior intellect of the white American (who the Vietnamese love and admire, except when he's trying to get them killed)! :jester:
ETA: I forgot that 86% of Vietnamese view Americans, not just the country, but the people, favorably. That ties them with the South Korea for number one (or two, depending on how you want to do it). The Philippines are next at 85%. And Sweden at 80%. Canadians view Americans less favorably than French, Brits, Dutch, Poles, Vietnamese, Koreans, Filipinos, Japanese, Australians, Israelis, and Nigerians. Among others.
Only 43% of Canadians view the US favorably. 58% of Canadians think the spread of US ideas and customs are bad. 55% of Canadians dislike American ideas about democracy. You should really be hating the Canadians.
That's great maybe they can like us enough to go find those MIA's and return their remains.
I'm sure since we resurrected their economy they love us, but don't care - F them.
MEDIA is one of those interesting words, one with many definitions and uses. Surely, you cannot think that any member of this forum would advocate our NEWS media as being any more genuine or honest than any of the dictatorship ruled countries.
Print, online, and film media: read TV Shows, YouTube, Hollywood movies, are what the people are clamoring for. Infusing that into their system would show them a world that their NEWS media has been lying to them about their entire lives.
I was hoping LOL. Best case scenario that came to mind with mainstream was mayyybe ours could be a little less blatant/onerous than theirs with a goal of weaning them over, but figured our somewhat more subtle media can be even more insidious than foreign cult of personality level propaganda.
Anyway, you had to spell it out to me so all is good!:)
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-17-19, 14:37
Mullah's and Cult of Personalities are no match for Britney Spears in that Catholic Girls School outfit video... which is 10 years old now.
Been to Vietnam. All these western chain stores, world's 3rd worst cell phone coverage, and posters on bus stops about the American "Air Pirates"- it is a mixed bag. But overall, very pro US people.
Our business partner there was the son of a guy who worked for the US. After the US left in the 70s, his dad was sent to a camp and told to either kill himself or his family would suffer. He killed himself and his family still suffered. BUT, with all the boom in business, he rose up and became successful. He got over it, and its his country and countryman than killed his dad and uncles. Now he tools around HoChiMin City in a sick Mercedes sedan.
The VC won the last battle and we won the long war.
Just like China and Russia, Vietnam is a very active player in Cyber theft, targeting US companies. They are no friends of ours.
https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2017/05/cyber-espionage-apt32.html
The problem is that Islam is incompatible with Liberty and Justice and Democracy.
That's why we would have to introduce several generations to these concepts and get them to not take the koran so literally. It wouldn't be easy but it isn't impossible.
Saudis and others would have to be knocked down also for that to work.
No argument here.
There is a line of demarcation with state actors in Korea. None of that exists in Afghanistan. 2000 years of history do not support the probability of success. If I had to place my bets Americans including everyone here will disavow Liberty, Justice, democracy and the 2A long before the people of Afghanistan will embrace those alien principles. The Taliban didn't execute 9/11 they just harbored the Saudi prince that did and the founders of this country warned us of the dangers of foreign entanglements. 20 years is enough.
But we didn't just draw a line in the sand and leave the Koreans to their own devices. I don't know anybody that thinks the Taliban executed 9/11 and I didn't say they did.
Yeah, for 2000 years the armies of many nations have tried to conquer and subjugate the peoples of Afghanistan and failed. That's not what I'm suggesting. If we leave A-stan now it will revert right back to what it was. We have to show them how beneficial it is to engage with the outside world. Like LowSpeed_HighDrag said about Cuba, we need to expose them to our media. It won't be easy or pretty but it'll be a lot uglier when we have to go back and the bloodshed and lives lost will have been meaningless.
Mullah's and Cult of Personalities are no match for Britney Spears in that Catholic Girls School outfit video... which is 10 years old now.
Been to Vietnam. All these western chain stores, world's 3rd worst cell phone coverage, and posters on bus stops about the American "Air Pirates"- it is a mixed bag. But overall, very pro US people.
Our business partner there was the son of a guy who worked for the US. After the US left in the 70s, his dad was sent to a camp and told to either kill himself or his family would suffer. He killed himself and his family still suffered. BUT, with all the boom in business, he rose up and became successful. He got over it, and its his country and countryman than killed his dad and uncles. Now he tools around HoChiMin City in a sick Mercedes sedan.
The VC won the last battle and we won the long war.
Hit Me Baby One More Time is old enough to order drinks....
Just like China and Russia, Vietnam is a very active player in Cyber theft, targeting US companies. They are no friends of ours.
Should we then treat Israel as a foreign adversary?
https://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reached-terrifying-levels-2014-5?IR=T
Should we then treat Israel as a foreign adversary?
https://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reached-terrifying-levels-2014-5?IR=T
Not spying on US soil and inside the US, like on and in are necessary.
I first learned of this American hero while attending a course at JFKSWCS. COL Rowe wrote one of the best books I've ever read, Five Years to Freedom, about his time in captivity. It is an absolutely amazing survival story. As you'd expect, it's extremely instructional, but it reads like a novel.
To clarify, COL Rowe was held neither in Hanoi nor by the NVA. For his entire 5 years as a prisoner, he was held in small jungle camps (and moved often) in extreme southern Vietnam, in what was then called IV Corps, by VietCong forces. This is an important distinction, and it is discussed in the book, especially given the time frame of his captivity relative to the rest of the war's history (and the friction between leadership in Hanoi and VC leadership in SVN.
But I appreciate how you feel Steyr. I'm conflicted, but every time I re-ead that book, my anger towards COL Rowe's captors is renewed.
Semper Fi.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
It's an excellent book. I read it years ago and got the audio book recently. It was even better listening to the book.
Not spying on US soil and inside the US, like on and in are necessary.
And you know that how?
And you know that how?
Tapping in to telecommunications would seem to do the trick of spying without being on US soil.
Tapping in to telecommunications would seem to do the trick of spying without being on US soil.
Maybe, but again, how do you know? How can you know?
Maybe, but again, how do you know? How can you know?
If you are asking if I have engaged in the practice the answer is no. I have conversed with people in other states without standing within arms length of them and have experienced bleed over from other communications so it would seem to just be a few steps beyond that to make it happen on tapping in to US communications without being on US soil.
No, that is not what I am asking.
Just like China and Russia, Vietnam is a very active player in Cyber theft, targeting US companies. They are no friends of ours.
Should we then treat Israel as a foreign adversary?
https://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reached-terrifying-levels-2014-5?IR=T
Not spying on US soil and inside the US, like on and in are necessary.
Are you here claiming that Israel is not spying on the US in the US on US soil?
No, that is not what I am asking.
Are you here claiming that Israel is not spying on the US in the US on US soil?
It is quite possible although I am not sure it is really necessary. What I was pointing out was how adamant they were about not spying while on us soil and while in the United States and hell being on us soil would not even remotely be necessary to spy on the United States.
It is quite possible although I am not sure it is really necessary. What I was pointing out was how adamant they were about not spying while on us soil and while in the United States and hell being on us soil would not even remotely be necessary to spy on the United States.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
I recall that making the news over 30 years ago. That may have been necessary then, but maybe not so much so now.
As one who has been to Hanoi to retrieve our fallen (operation homecoming- as written on my orders), I have to side with Mr. Aug on this one. And my brother was in Special Forces over there and is suffering his slow death from both sides (agent orange victim) so I say f'm.
As one who has been to Hanoi to retrieve our fallen (operation homecoming- as written on my orders), I have to side with Mr. Aug on this one. And my brother was in Special Forces over there and is suffering his slow death from both sides (agent orange victim) so I say f'm.
What would you say to your colleagues who have gone back over to make peace with the Vietnamese and tour the battlefields? I'm not choosing your side or their side, just curious on what kind of dialogue you would have with them. I know that this is a very touchy subject with the veterans who were there. I think it's very difficult. I also think as the Vietnam generation starts passing on, it'll become easier to normalize relations.
What would you say to your colleagues who have gone back over to make peace with the Vietnamese and tour the battlefields? I'm not choosing your side or their side, just curious on what kind of dialogue you would have with them. I know that this is a very touchy subject with the veterans who were there. I think it's very difficult. I also think as the Vietnam generation starts passing on, it'll become easier to normalize relations.
I would say nothing to them. They have a right to their opinion and they earned it. To the others that have not been there, Americans are very notorious for short memories and dismissive of the past. Something most cultures are derisive of the U.S. for. For instance, how many Americans do you know that don’t understand why Russians dislike America for invading Russia? How many Americans do you know that we invaded Russia? Do you even know that? I can guarantee you that Russians that grew up in the USSR certainly do.
Dr. Bullseye
04-18-19, 21:16
The only opinions that matter to me are those of the people who served in Vietnam.
The only opinions that matter to me are those of the people who served in Vietnam.
Those are the only ones I won't criticize. Hell if jewish families go to Germany and forgive elderly SS camps guards I won't criticize them. But I sure as hell will have an opinion on what those SS camp guards did and if it was the same damn government would damn sure have an opinion on what relations we have with them.
Even though prominent German scientists got us to the moon, we had to be careful who was invited under Operation Paperclip. So I disagree that if you didn't serve you don't get an opinion. I wasn't in the Korean War but I have lots of opinions about our relations with North Korea, South Korea and China.
The sad part is if it hadn’t been for miscommunication; Vietnam would have actually been an ally as far back as the 50s.
At one point Iran was our best friend in SWA.
They are the only country we gave F-14s to.
I hold a LOT of resentment for what happened because it has affected me personally and loved ones are not here as a result but I can only blame the egos of people who made the wrong decisions.
Sometimes you really do have to let it go.
Easier said than done but good in the long run.
Should we then treat Israel as a foreign adversary?
https://www.businessinsider.com/israeli-spying-on-us-has-reached-terrifying-levels-2014-5?IR=T
There is a fairly wide gulf of difference between intelligence collecting and intruding on private companies for the purpose of stealing information. Try again.
Israel would be stupid not to collect intel on the US.
There is a fairly wide gulf of difference between intelligence collecting and intruding on private companies for the purpose of stealing information. Try again.
Israel would be stupid not to collect intel on the US.
Try again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
I would say nothing to them. They have a right to their opinion and they earned it. To the others that have not been there, Americans are very notorious for short memories and dismissive of the past. Something most cultures are derisive of the U.S. for. For instance, how many Americans do you know that don’t understand why Russians dislike America for invading Russia? How many Americans do you know that we invaded Russia? Do you even know that? I can guarantee you that Russians that grew up in the USSR certainly do.
Thanks, great input.
The sad part is if it hadn’t been for miscommunication; Vietnam would have actually been an ally as far back as the 50s.
Wasn't a miscommunication so much as France wanted their colony back and we said "Sorry it's NATO" and we backed the French. Then when they took their ball and went home it became a proxy war between the USSR/China and the US and everyone was afraid to blink because it would embolden the other guy.
OSS founder Donovan said we need to pick a team even before that, unfortunately we picked France.
Try again.
No, I won’t try again and I won’t engage with someone who posts an off topic response because he hates the Jewish people.
No, I won’t try again and I won’t engage with someone who posts an off topic response because he hates the Jewish people.
Really? Going to the "you hate Jewish people" nonsense because you were flat out wrong? You're really just that much of a child? Seriously?
http://i.imgur.com/sCqMIaP.png?1 (https://imgur.com/sCqMIaP)
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