View Full Version : Nick Wantland - VLTOR A5 Buffer System
New article just out where Nick Wantland from VLTOR detaiis their A5 system
The VLTOR A5 Buffer System is my favorite thing that we make, and is one of the things that I get most excited about when I talk to people about VLTOR and what we offer.
We make some other really cool stuff, so it’s sort of funny that an unsexy part like a buffer would be my favorite. But when you dig into the technical side of things, its attractiveness becomes clear.
The VLTOR A5 Buffer System is basically a proprietary buffer and receiver extension tube that are intermediate in length. The buffer and the tube are both 3/4 of an inch longer than a standard carbine buffer set up. The system also utilizes a rifle action spring instead of a carbine spring.
There’s a ton of things that it does simultaneously, some more nuanced than others…But the synopsis is it regulates carrier velocity, changes felt recoil impulse, and most importantly, it opens up the entire operational envelope of the gun. It allows the gun to run properly under a much wider range of input and factors. This usually equates to more overall reliability…which is a good thing.
Whether you’re using the carbine buffer system, or the longer rifle buffer system, the bolt carrier’s stroke length is the same – around 3.75”. The carrier travels the same distance, so the amount of compression a carbine spring and rifle spring experience is the same.
However, the carbine spring is shorter and has less wire than a rifle buffer spring. This means with the rifle buffer system, you have a longer spring with more coils and more wire to perform the same work. When both springs are deflected the same amount, the carbine spring experiences more stress, and also experiences a higher differential between the pre-loaded position and fully-loaded positions than a rifle spring does.
There is a lot more to it than that, but in basic terms, the rifle buffer system is quite literally more smooth and consistent than a carbine setup, in regards to the action spring.
One of the other unique features about the A5 buffers are their internal biasing springs. There’s a spring inside of each buffer that keeps internal weights stacked against the front face of the buffer. This assures that the weights are always in the same place when the gun starts its unlocking and cycling processes. Weights are always in the same position, so the gun is always overcoming the same mass, in the same way, every time.
End of the article has some quotes from local favorites Mike and Will.
Most of this has been well covered here, but this is straight from the MFG.
Full Article (https://www.arbuildjunkie.com/vltor-a5-buffer-system-overview/?fbclid=IwAR3Z_dOmi1qWcuurmTVbqomZe19_HtL2JNmUfDNqplgXyQwER_cSS1PmhhU)
I saw Roger share this in his FB group and was about to post it on my thread from the other day. This was definitely the best single read on it that I've seen and helps me to better understand a lot of the stuff that people here have said. One thing that I'm still confused about though, is the buffer selection. I've seen it discussed plenty of times here, but don't know that I've ever seen an answer that is commonly accepted AND easy to understand. BCM includes the A5-0 with their kit and in the interview, he says that it works well with relatively well-ported 14.5 mids, which I would assume includes BCM's at .076. But, plenty of people here, myself included, can run theirs with a green spring and A5-3 and still get normal function including consistent lock back on empty. What's the best answer for this? My initial understanding years ago (which came from one of the various threads here) was to use the heaviest buffer that would have have normal function, but I'm wondering if that maybe isn't the best answer.
I saw Roger share this in his FB group and was about to post it on my thread from the other day. This was definitely the best single read on it that I've seen and helps me to better understand a lot of the stuff that people here have said. One thing that I'm still confused about though, is the buffer selection. I've seen it discussed plenty of times here, but don't know that I've ever seen an answer that is commonly accepted AND easy to understand. BCM includes the A5-0 with their kit and in the interview, he says that it works well with relatively well-ported 14.5 mids, which I would assume includes BCM's at .076. But, plenty of people here, myself included, can run theirs with a green spring and A5-3 and still get normal function including consistent lock back on empty. What's the best answer for this? My initial understanding years ago (which came from one of the various threads here) was to use the heaviest buffer that would have have normal function, but I'm wondering if that maybe isn't the best answer.
I’d say it’s still definitely a port issue.
Also, if biasing the internal weights towards the front of the buffer is considered optimal why aren’t solid buffers a thing?
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vicious_cb
04-20-19, 13:08
I’d say it’s still definitely a port issue.
Also, if biasing the internal weights towards the front of the buffer is considered optimal why aren’t solid buffers a thing?
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Because its not the same. You still get the deadblow hammer effect with biased springed weights. A solid buffer just gives you...a ton bolt bounce.
Also, if biasing the internal weights towards the front of the buffer is considered optimal why aren’t solid buffers a thing?
To prevent bolt bounce, where the bolt unlocks slightly after lockup leading to a possible light firing pin strike. I think the internal loose weights move to rear when buffer hits RE at full recoil and remain there until buffer stops forward motion at lockup, then weights slide forward due to their momentum and oppose bolt bounce off the barrel extension.
Mark
Because its not the same. You still get the deadblow hammer effect with biased springed weights. A solid buffer just gives you...a ton bolt bounce.
Does it make a difference if not F/A though?
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Probably not, unless your splits are as short as Jerry Michulek.
Since many consumers are keen on buying carbines that are marketed as "mil-spec" it only makes sense to have the same internals as true military carbines, within NFA guidelines.
Does it make a difference if not F/A though?
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I’ve wondered the same. If semi only, could we get the consistency that the biasing spring offers, simply by being solid, but of the appropriate weight?
I went so far in that thought experiment as to fill the internal space of an H1 buffer so that the weights could no longer slide. I was unable to tell a difference, and had no stoppages of any type in a couple thousand rounds. I put a proper buffer back in that rifle, just because, and I still can’t tell a difference.
Wish he'd have said something about availability because it doesn't really matter how great or cool they are when they're non existent.
Ive bought four of these A5 buffer kits. Ive never waited longer than two weeks when they have been out of stock.
A great system.....I like it
Most places you can't even backorder them they've been out of stock so long.
EzGoingKev
04-20-19, 22:16
Does he talk about what happened with the Marine Corps and the A5?
I waiting to get a chance to purchase one of those MA-5 Modular Buffer System kits that they showed at SHOT.
We get buffers and REs, but rarely have all of the components at the same time. Now we have lots of buffers but no REs, having sold them all without the buffers, then getting tons of buffers but no REs lol.
titsonritz
04-21-19, 01:15
We get buffers and REs, but rarely have all of the components at the same time. Now we have lots of buffers but no REs, having sold them all without the buffers, then getting tons of buffers but no REs lol.
I don't think anyone has Vltor REs in-stock at this point in time, right now if an A5 RE it BCM intermediate or nothing
Are the A5 parts really that hard to source? You could use the BCM intermediate or Magpul RE, and I think an LMT .308 works, too. Heavybuffers has the buffers and Vltor REs in stock. In fact you could put together a complete system right now without any Vltor parts at all.
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I might be missing something, but I own all three A5 receiver extensions (Vltor, BCM and Magpul). I would use whichever one was in stock. All of them are of equal quality.
What about the spring in the A5 kit? is it a Sprinco spring or their own proprietary spring?
It has been a bit since I ordered my last kit, but wait was only about two weeks.
It has been a bit since I ordered my last kit, but wait was only about two weeks.
You can't even back order them now.
What about the spring in the A5 kit? is it a Sprinco spring or their own proprietary spring?
Their kit comes with a standard rifle spring.
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ClangClang
04-21-19, 11:20
Any thoughts on using the new rifle-length Super 42 buffer spring from Geissele with an A5 system? Considerations? Would you be better off using the included buffer from Geissele or the A5 buffer?
Any thoughts on using the new rifle-length Super 42 buffer spring from Geissele with an A5 system? Considerations? Would you be better off using the included buffer from Geissele or the A5 buffer?
I wouldn't at all. Those are two entirely different systems. I don't think the Geissele spring would even work. IIRC, their buffer needs a smaller OD to fit inside the spring so standard dimension buffers won't fit.
TexasAggie2005
04-21-19, 13:22
I wouldn't at all. Those are two entirely different systems. I don't think the Geissele spring would even work. IIRC, their buffer needs a smaller OD to fit inside the spring so standard dimension buffers won't fit.
Only their carbine length spring requires the super42 buffer. The rifle spring works with a normal rifle extension and buffer.
Only their carbine length spring requires the super42 buffer. The rifle spring works with a normal rifle extension and buffer.
Well shit, I missed that. Interesting.
You can't even back order them now.
Ok, I see that. However, buffers are available, as well as comparable buffer tubes and springs.
I don't see a problem here.
Did anyone ever make a rifle length buffer tube to accept collapsible stocks? Granted it would essentially limit you to maybe one adjustment shorter than an A1 stock, but would seem to be a worthwhile part.
titsonritz
04-21-19, 16:00
Are the A5 parts really that hard to source?
Not hard at all most of the time, just not necessarily from the same vendor or manufacturer.
Heavybuffers has the buffers and Vltor REs in stock.
At $75 bucks a pop no wonder there are the only ones with any in stock.
I might be missing something, but I own all three A5 receiver extensions (Vltor, BCM and Magpul). I would use whichever one was in stock. All of them are of equal quality.
Exactly same here. I'll often piggyback A5 components when they are in stock with other orders just to have them.
You can't even back order them now.
Ok, I see that. However, buffers are available, as well as comparable buffer tubes and springs.
I don't see a problem here.
Why buy the kits in the first place? I'd rather buy the exact components (buffer weight of choice, Sprinco green spring, QD end plate) I want from the start.
Stuff ebbs and flows...
Production runs start and stop...
Things to in and out of stock...
A5 has been out for a good long time, but seem to have gained traction with more people using suppressors lately.
So IMO demand has increased and production / supply has yet to catch up.
Does he talk about what happened with the Marine Corps and the A5?
As far as I remember they said there was no quantifiable increase in reliability over the carbine/H6 setup so they didn't go with the A5.
vicious_cb
04-21-19, 16:42
As far as I remember they said there was no quantifiable increase in reliability over the carbine/H6 setup so they didn't go with the A5.
Actually as stated in the interview the A5 was more reliable than both the carbine buffer system and the rifle length buffer system. I really dont understand your jihad against the A5. Pls explain your motives.
Yeah I thought the upgrade program as a whole was cancelled, of which the A5 was just a part of.
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vicious_cb
04-21-19, 18:05
Yeah I thought the upgrade program as a whole was cancelled, of which the A5 was just a part of.
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You can thank the 416/M27 for that.
Why buy the kits in the first place? I'd rather buy the exact components (buffer weight of choice, Sprinco green spring, QD end plate) I want from the start.
I think my 1st was a kit, 2nd I used an LMT tube, my last two were MagPul tubes, with the buffers I wanted and Sprinco spring
A previously smooth and properly running carbine with H2 buffer now won't lock the bolt back with Super 42 and Super 42 specific H2 installed. I only used the setup because it's the last one we had, and we've dropped all of their products from our site last year. I had it in the bin and decided to make use of it.
Will be replacing it with a tried and true A5. I can't and won't recommend Super 42 to anyone, the proprietary smaller diameter buffer requires G tungsten weights at $20 a pop, and offers no real discernible improvement.
A5, on the other hand, I will recommend to anyone that will listen. Vltor has been around, it doesn't rush products to market without testing.
A previously smooth and properly running carbine with H2 buffer now won't lock the bolt back with Super 42 and Super 42 specific H2 installed. I only used the setup because it's the last one we had, and we've dropped all of their products from our site last year. I had it in the bin and decided to make use of it.
Will be replacing it with a tried and true A5. I can't and won't recommend Super 42 to anyone, the proprietary smaller diameter buffer requires G tungsten weights at $20 a pop, and offers no real discernible improvement.
A5, on the other hand, I will recommend to anyone that will listen. Vltor has been around, it doesn't rush products to market without testing.
THUMBS UP ON THIS! THANKS FOR DOINGT THIS TEST.
This is exactly what I've suspected for a long time.
This is but one user's experience. I'm not trashing the Super 42, only noting the issues I've encountered. Others will, and can no doubt also confirm that it's worked fine for them. The first thing I noticed was it was significantly harder to pull the CH back, the braided spring is responsible for that. Because of the higher spring rate, I think the buffer's weight needs to be calibrated to compensate for it, I'm not sure if that was done.
In the end, I'm not doing product testing for G or anyone, unless I'm developing a new spring or buffer (I won't, I'm wholly sold on the A5), so I'm just going use what I know will work.
Actually as stated in the interview the A5 was more reliable than both the carbine buffer system and the rifle length buffer system. I really dont understand your jihad against the A5. Pls explain your motives.
No jihad against it, it just doesn't make much or any difference vs a carbine spring.
The A5 were more reliable but when you discounted malfunctions/failures not attributable to the buffer, it wasn't. That's why they went with the carbine parts with an H6.
bobbytucson
05-01-19, 21:59
i live close to their factory and i deal with nick on a personal level. if any of you ever got to meet him, you will know he is literally one of the nicest and genuine guys you have ever met, and totally knows his products. a true gentleman. i personally believe he will carry vltor a very long way to success. he is one of those guys. that being said, here is my 2 cents on the a5. while i will be completely unbiased as possible, i will say that i am a 100% believer in the a5 kit. i have ran it hard, fast, slow, and all around pretty much every type of fire in multi-gun matches and can definitely feel the difference compared to a standard carbine spring & buff. it is absolutely much smoother. i find it helps double and triple taps track better on those close in shots to paper, and very very smooth on slow shots on longer shots on steel out to them 400 yrd steel plates, the dot/reticle barely move making follow up shots quicker out to range. if anybody has ever played paintball, and used or played with a wpg/budd orr autococker with a 3-way valve, thats what it feels like when combined with a quality barrel with a good gas port and run of the mill comp. ive have never had a malfunction because of it, and i would complete trust it. hands down its a better system. it primarily helps reduce bolt bounce, which has been proven with high speed camera. i think too many people stay away from it because ''in the zombie appacolypse'' or more conservative ''only one im taking if we are going to war'' type of people who say that stuff stick with the regular carbine system because we know we can pick up readily available ''spare springs & buffers off of dead bodies and be able to use them". yah. i get that. but a buffer doesnt break, and the quality springco springs are good for 40k rounds...ill happily take the a5 kit "to war during the zombie appocalypse" lol. that being said, i have never seen combat, never been to war, never been deployed or overseas, so i have never ''battle tested'' my a5 kits. im just an average joe non-operator that competes in sport shooting at a high level around the country every month, thats all. but i am a true believer, and don't see why it isnt standard across the board to be honest. i would trust it for duty for sure, more than standard spring & buffer. i really dont why it isnt standard issue and build spec for all manufacturers by now in 2019
i live close to their factory and i deal with nick on a personal level. if any of you ever got to meet him, you will know he is literally one of the nicest and genuine guys you have ever met, and totally knows his products. a true gentleman. i personally believe he will carry vltor a very long way to success. he is one of those guys. that being said, here is my 2 cents on the a5. while i will be completely unbiased as possible, i will say that i am a 100% believer in the a5 kit. i have ran it hard, fast, slow, and all around pretty much every type of fire in multi-gun matches and can definitely feel the difference compared to a standard carbine spring & buff. it is absolutely much smoother. i find it helps double and triple taps track better on those close in shots to paper, and very very smooth on slow shots on longer shots on steel out to them 400 yrd steel plates, the dot/reticle barely move making follow up shots quicker out to range. if anybody has ever played paintball, and used or played with a wpg/budd orr autococker with a 3-way valve, thats what it feels like when combined with a quality barrel with a good gas port and run of the mill comp. ive have never had a malfunction because of it, and i would complete trust it. hands down its a better system. it primarily helps reduce bolt bounce, which has been proven with high speed camera. i think too many people stay away from it because ''in the zombie appacolypse'' or more conservative ''only one im taking if we are going to war'' type of people who say that stuff stick with the regular carbine system because we know we can pick up readily available ''spare springs & buffers off of dead bodies and be able to use them". yah. i get that. but a buffer doesnt break, and the quality springco springs are good for 40k rounds...ill happily take the a5 kit "to war during the zombie appocalypse" lol. that being said, i have never seen combat, never been to war, never been deployed or overseas, so i have never ''battle tested'' my a5 kits. im just an average joe non-operator that competes in sport shooting at a high level around the country every month, thats all. but i am a true believer, and don't see why it isnt standard across the board to be honest. i would trust it for duty for sure, more than standard spring & buffer. i really dont why it isnt standard issue and build spec for all manufacturers by now in 2019
Why its not standard is because they're always out our stock.
Some also prefer the shorter fully collapsed carbine setup for shooting “squared up” with body armor.
Can someone chime in on their experience with an adjustable gas block and the A5 recoil system? With an AGB, would it be worth $100+ converting from a carbine H1/H2 setup? Would the A5 need more or less gas setting? And what about with a mid-length or rifle length gas system?
Thanks.
bobbytucson, when FCD ARs come out, we'd like to standardize on A5, we'll leave TDP spec REs, buffers and springs as options as well when A5 is unavailable.
Running a 16" intermediate length gas system with an AGB and A5 setup, 100% reliable with weak 223 all the way to 556 pressure ammo. Gas block set at 5 clicks from closed, SLR recommends starting @ 5-6 from closed, so no extra gas is needed to lock open when mag is empty. Runs well @ 4 clicks out, but set @ 5 for insurance when fouled.
EzGoingKev
05-02-19, 15:56
i really dont why it isnt standard issue and build spec for all manufacturers by now in 2019
OMG because it isn't in the TDP.
OMG because it isn't in the TDP.
Does anyone besides me NOT give a rat's ass about the TDP? My bet is 99% of the manufacturers who claim to adhere to it are blowing smoke up our asses and we have NO way to prove they don't. That probably includes the beloved COLT. The fanboys will argue that mil spec cannot be improved upon. I beg to differ.
EzGoingKev
05-02-19, 17:42
Everything on this site used to be TDP, TDP, TDP, and more TDP.
To suggest something like the A5 should come standard on rifles would be blasphemy and you would be burned as a heretic.
I've always been a huge believer in the A5 system. I sincerely feel that if Vltor can keep up with the demand and keep parts in stock, we would see them a lot more. I was definitely bummed when Sionics dropped their A5 lowers due to parts availability.
I've always been a huge believer in the A5 system. I sincerely feel that if Vltor can keep up with the demand and keep parts in stock, we would see them a lot more. I was definitely bummed when Sionics dropped their A5 lowers due to parts availability.
Me too.
Everything on this site used to be TDP, TDP, TDP, and more TDP.
To suggest something like the A5 should come standard on rifles would be blasphemy and you would be burned as a heretic.
Yeah. That was a long time ago...
We base our products off TDP, then make changes on top of the dimensions and tolerances. Technically speaking, they're not TDP spec anymore, neither is A5, or any 3rd party development that differs from the original Colt drawings. If we made all things TDP spec, we'd be making factory parts. The important parts where we don't make changes to adhere to TDP specs.
me2hootyhoo
05-08-19, 18:00
I see a few posts lately about these RE’s, so this may be the right place to bring this up. Seems availability being an issue and cost for some, so why not a flat wire?
Is there a real advantage to the A5 over the Tubbs flat wire spring? Seems like other than possible heavier buffer options and the spring in the buffer they are nearly accomplishing the same thing, more spring coils to work with.
So if heavier weights are not needed, and the spring in the buffer is not noticeable, am I missing out? I couldn’t imagine my AR’s possibly running any smoother or reliably. I’m talking BCM middy, H2, & flat wire, with 22lr like recoil but smooth. Runs PMC bronze, steel cased, 5.56, 77gr etc
I have no experience with the A5 personally, but am considering purchasing one just for comparison.
I cant tell a correctly gassed carbine from a vltor. Vltor comes into its own when you're trying to fix issues, imo
Everything on this site used to be TDP, TDP, TDP, and more TDP.
To suggest something like the A5 should come standard on rifles would be blasphemy and you would be burned as a heretic.
At the time, there was good reason for it. Alot of feces was being flung around the market with no real way to discern the difference. TDP is not the end-all-be-all. But if you're going to deviate, you should be able to articulate specific reasoning for it and provide data to back it up instead of a just great marketing.
EzGoingKev
05-13-19, 18:04
At the time, there was good reason for it. Alot of feces was being flung around the market with no real way to discern the difference. TDP is not the end-all-be-all. But if you're going to deviate, you should be able to articulate specific reasoning for it and provide data to back it up instead of a just great marketing.
There was a lot of feces being thrown around here by the mustache petes of the board.
Anyone try an A5 on a MK 18?
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