View Full Version : Is Colt still good?
My next AR15 is going to be a basic but high quality carbine. Colt was first on my list until I read the thread about Colt outsourcing and seen people like Chris Bartocci slam Colt.
Are they still a baseline reference of a well made mil spec AR?
Yes.
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Yes.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhat he said.
I bought a 6920 in 2016,put a colt 14.5” m4 barrel (pinned and welded),geissele ssa trigger and a ta31 h-g.it has about 3,500-4,000 ish rounds with nary a hiccup.i am very happy with its performance.
The build specs are pretty easy to find,I would compare with others in the price range(if they are even disclosed!!).to me the choice was an easy one.
I feel mine was an excellent value and have not experienced buyers remorse in the three years I have owned it.
Ymmv.
My next AR15 is going to be a basic but high quality carbine. Colt was first on my list until I read the thread about Colt outsourcing and seen people like Chris Bartocci slam Colt.
Are they still a baseline reference of a well made mil spec AR?
If you read all 40+ pages (unfortunately I did) then you would have seen that there was not one single actual incident reported in that thread. Just lots of fretting and stewing over markings and perceptions. There was no actual loss of or failed performance documented.
My next AR15 is going to be a basic but high quality carbine. Colt was first on my list until I read the thread about Colt outsourcing and seen people like Chris Bartocci slam Colt.
Are they still a baseline reference of a well made mil spec AR?
If your concern is along the lines of fit and finish, Colt is not the goal to strive for. If the concern is functionality, it is hard to beat.
Although the outsourcing stuff is concerning and unfortunate, and just kinda bums me out given Colt's history with the AR, in the absence of any real evidence their current business practices are affecting quality, I'll still continue to recommend Colt to anyone who wants to just buy a good off the shelf complete AR and be done with it, and they would still be my first choice for that as well. If evidence begins to suggest there's a problem with current or future Colt's, than I'll change my opinion.
Although the outsourcing stuff is concerning and unfortunate, and just kinda bums me out given Colt's history with the AR, in the absence of any real evidence their current business practices are affecting quality, I'll still continue to recommend Colt to anyone who wants to just buy a good off the shelf complete AR and be done with it, and they would still be my first choice for that as well. If evidence begins to suggest there's a problem with current or future Colt's, than I'll change my opinion.
I just bought my 6920 a few months ago. Shot fine right out of the box, and was almost perfectly sighted in.
The bolt carrier is not "C" marked, and Colt won't send me one that is. The bolt, upon close inspection, is "MPC" marked.
Some people are put off by the exterior finish of Colt rifles, but as was noted above, they're not making them pretty. They make battlefield / law enforcement guns, which means (1) the do have to work, and (2) they don't have to be pretty.
I like mine so far.
If your concern is along the lines of fit and finish, Colt is not the goal to strive for. If the concern is functionality, it is hard to beat.
I'm not at all concerned about fit and finish, as long as it functions 100%. But it seems like the Colt 6920 is very hated on these days and called subpar.
I find Colt's fit to be the best. Their finish has a few scuffs which is totally fine, but there are a few examples out there that are kind of not okay. 99% of Colt's on the wall I would buy.
Let them hate all they want...as I said earlier,compare the basic build specs to the competition and you won’t find many competitors in its price range.
I might sound like a fanboy,but I’m actually just a guy looking to get the most for his hard earned dough.
I would think at least 40% of what is posted on these forums is unfounded gibberish,typically posted by people with an ar15 under their bed that hasn’t been fired more than a couple times...
My advice to you is;
Decide what the primary role is you are trying to fill
Do plenty of independent research
Rent one if possible
Determine your price range
Get the best basic components you can afford (barrel,receiver extension,trigger,buffer)
Just my .02$
I bought a 6920 in 2016,put a colt 14.5” m4 barrel (pinned and welded),geissele ssa trigger and a ta31 h-g.it has about 3,500-4,000 ish rounds with nary a hiccup.i am very happy with its performance.
The build specs are pretty easy to find,I would compare with others in the price range(if they are even disclosed!!).to me the choice was an easy one.
I feel mine was an excellent value and have not experienced buyers remorse in the three years I have owned it.
Ymmv.
I think you should give some consideration to the fact that you spent $240.00 on a trigger to achieve this goodness.
Regarding Bartocci, he clearly has a lot of affection and nostalgia for the Colt of old. So he seems legitimately dismayed over Colt's outsourcing and some of their other tone-deaf business decisions, but when asked straight up if the outsourcing is negatively affecting the quality of Colt rifles his answer was a relatively fair (in my opinion) "We don't know yet".
I'll still buy Colt stuff until there's some indication I shouldn't.
I would think at least 40% of what is posted on these forums is unfounded gibberish,typically posted by people with an ar15 under their bed that hasn’t been fired more than a couple times...
4,000 rounds in three years, that is more than average.
I just weighed the brass I have sitting to be processed from summer last year to today (actually last week) 47.3 pounds equals about 3,400 give or take in the last 9 or so months.
I know a lot of folks on the forum shoot more .223/5.56 than I do, but this poster of unfounded gibberish did it all without a Colt.
As you said - be a knowledgeable buyer, get reliable components. Research enough to understand the difference between BCG 'A' (with logo) at $169.00 and BCG 'B' at $89.00 (no logo) probably ain't $80.00 worth.
Some manufacturers chooses not to deal with casting flash on parts of the receiver that might discomfort the shooter, especially with an A2 grip. Then ask yourself what other, unseen, cost saving measures that manufacture that might employ.
Above all, encourage folks to have a reason for their opinions and purchases based on something other than dogma.
I never said it had the best trigger in its price range.
I never said it had the best trigger in its price range.
I got that, but with what you paid plus cash out for the trigger, you are in this territory:
LaRue Ultimate AR-15 Upper Kit (assembled @ $792.00; unassembled @ $693.00) https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit/
add this:
LaRue Billet Lower (@ $199.99) https://www.larue.com/products/larue-billet-lowers/
And since all you would have to do is assemble the lower to have a complete rifle at $991.99 or, if you are even handier, @ $892.99.
Pretty sure it will #1 - be more accurate than the Colt; #2 - since it has the MBT, it won't need another trigger.
Maybe apples to oranges, but that is the way I'd go before I bought a 6920 and put $240.00 trigger in it.
wetidlerjr
04-22-19, 22:25
My next AR15 is going to be a basic but high quality carbine. Colt was first on my list until I read the thread about Colt outsourcing and seen people like Chris Bartocci slam Colt. Are they still a baseline reference of a well made mil spec AR?
Yes...
I got that, but with what you paid plus cash out for the trigger, you are in this territory:
LaRue Ultimate AR-15 Upper Kit (assembled @ $792.00; unassembled @ $693.00) https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit/
add this:
LaRue Billet Lower (@ $199.99) https://www.larue.com/products/larue-billet-lowers/
And since all you would have to do is assemble the lower to have a complete rifle at $991.99 or, if you are even handier, @ $892.99.
Pretty sure it will #1 - be more accurate than the Colt; #2 - since it has the MBT, it won't need another trigger.
Maybe apples to oranges, but that is the way I'd go before I bought a 6920 and put $240.00 trigger in it.
Why are you sure it would be more accurate?
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Hammered_Pair
04-23-19, 04:44
Colt is still Colt, nothing special nothing terrible. BCM, Noveske, LMT are viable options in terms of quality and innovation as well.
LaRue Ultimate AR-15 Upper Kit (assembled @ $792.00; unassembled @ $693.00) [url]https://www.larue.com/products/larue-ultimate-ar-15-upper-kit/[/u
How do you get the unasembled price? I can't see it.
Doc Safari
04-23-19, 09:28
Regarding Bartocci, he clearly has a lot of affection and nostalgia for the Colt of old. So he seems legitimately dismayed over Colt's outsourcing and some of their other tone-deaf business decisions, but when asked straight up if the outsourcing is negatively affecting the quality of Colt rifles his answer was a relatively fair (in my opinion) "We don't know yet".
I'll still buy Colt stuff until there's some indication I shouldn't.
I have mixed feelings about Bartocci. I think he has a legitimate concern UP TO A POINT. Beyond that point I think he's clinging to the past a little too much and may also have a small cup of sour grapes over his career ending with Colt. It's like every former employee comparing himself to his replacement saying, "Things were different when I was there (and it was done right)." You have to separate the truth from the nostalgia and that's the difficult part.
Only after a few years and hundreds of thousands of rounds fired will we know if Colt's quality has really taken a dive or if their changes are just trimming some of the fat and becoming more efficient.
We literally will not know the answer during the entire course of this thread.
There's nothing wrong with a Colt, or outsourcing especially since A.) Colt has always outsourced some components & B.) Some of the brands you'd jizz yourself to have in your safe outsource as well. Welcome to the manufacturing world friends, this is normal & regular practice.
If Colt has any knock against it, it's that they're still building the gun of 30 years ago with few exceptions. If you're going to pick one up, I'd go after the CCU 6960. At least you get a mid gas system... that was released within the last few years. :rolleyes:
B.) Some of the brands you'd jizz yourself to have in your safe outsource as well.
I'd say nearly all of them do.
I’m put off by all the drama and rumors with Colt. IMO they are becoming less of a known in terms of quality compared to other brands.
midSCarolina
04-23-19, 12:36
I recently built a rifle using a bunch of what I guess could be considered "misfit" Colt parts (weird barrel profile circa 2013, BCG w/ non-C marked carrier, non-C marked upper from RSR, 6920 lower with 6 position tube) and all of the parts are otherwise indistinguishable from Colt parts from older, marked rifles.
Anyways, there is a picture floating around of an upper that an armorer received via the military supply chain that is marked with the "C" as well as FN's cage code. It kinda makes me wonder if when they say outsourcing, do they mean your standard civ manufacturers like CMT or something or if the facilities are "special" facilities that make parts specifically from military suppliers per TDP. The only way I can see an upper being marked as both Colt and FN is if there is a 3rd party manufacturer that makes parts for both. I don't think Colt would ever accidentally put FN's cage code on one of their uppers and FN would never stamp (electro pencil in this case) "C" on their uppers. Maybe someone knows more about it than I do.
Anyways, there is a picture floating around of an upper that an armorer received via the military supply chain that is marked with the "C" as well as FN's cage code. It kinda makes me wonder if when they say outsourcing, do they mean your standard civ manufacturers like CMT or something or if the facilities are "special" facilities that make parts specifically from military suppliers per TDP. The only way I can see an upper being marked as both Colt and FN is if there is a 3rd party manufacturer that makes parts for both. I don't think Colt would ever accidentally put FN's cage code on one of their uppers and FN would never stamp (electro pencil in this case) "C" on their uppers. Maybe someone knows more about it than I do.
It's entirely plausible that Colt is supplying components to FN. The government doesn't own means of production, they're getting parts, components and systems from the civilian market. I've audited and done business with quite a few military contractors that also supply civilian industries that produced things like machine gun spindles, air-to-air missile warhead explosives and Tomahawk cruise missile bodies.
It's entirely plausible that Colt is supplying components to FN. The government doesn't own means of production, they're getting parts, components and systems from the civilian market. I've audited and done business with quite a few military contractors that also supply civilian industries that produced things like machine gun spindles, air-to-air missile warhead explosives and Tomahawk cruise missile bodies.
It could be that FN is supplying them for Colt.
Renegade04
04-23-19, 16:45
Bear in mind, not all Colts are created equal. That means that not all are of the same quality. Just because it has Colt on the lower and maybe a C on the upper, it does not mean that it is what a Colt once was. personally, about the only new Colt I would buy would be the M4A1 SOCOM. The last new Colt I bought was a 2008 LE6920 (marked " Restricted Military/Gov't LE"). Personally, there are several good quality basic ARs available today that rival that of Colt in quality, fit, finish, and performance that are close to the same price and some less. My advice, do not get caught up in the Colt name thing when looking for quality. Do not get me wrong, I like Colt ARs, but the Colts of olden days. I have several older pre-ban Colts going back to 1977. Shop around for what you are looking for in regard to what it is that you are wanting. Look at the compilation of parts. Remember, mil-spec means different things these days. Not all mil-spec buffer tubes are the same. Most all receivers are mil-spec. Not all charging handles are mil-spec (some are worse, some better). Not all barrels are mil-spec material (some worse, some better). No FCGs are mil-spec since they are not select-fire. There are mil-spec type FCGs and some are better quality that others. You just have to know what it is you are buying. Personally, I prefer to build my own in that I can pick and choose what parts I want and I know that when it is done, it is a good quality and well-performing AR.
Bear in mind, not all Colts are created equal. That means that not all are of the same quality. Just because it has Colt on the lower and maybe a C on the upper, it does not mean that it is what a Colt once was. personally, about the only new Colt I would buy would be the M4A1 SOCOM. The last new Colt I bought was a 2008 LE6920 (marked " Restricted Military/Gov't LE"). Personally, there are several good quality basic ARs available today that rival that of Colt in quality, fit, finish, and performance that are close to the same price and some less. My advice, do not get caught up in the Colt name thing when looking for quality. Do not get me wrong, I like Colt ARs, but the Colts of olden days. I have several older pre-ban Colts going back to 1977. Shop around for what you are looking for in regard to what it is that you are wanting. Look at the compilation of parts. Remember, mil-spec means different things these days. Not all mil-spec buffer tubes are the same. Most all receivers are mil-spec. Not all charging handles are mil-spec (some are worse, some better). Not all barrels are mil-spec material (some worse, some better). No FCGs are mil-spec since they are not select-fire. There are mil-spec type FCGs and some are better quality that others. You just have to know what it is you are buying. Personally, I prefer to build my own in that I can pick and choose what parts I want and I know that when it is done, it is a good quality and well-performing AR.
What specifically makes the Colts of today worse than older Colts? Are they using inferior materials now? Why is the M4A1 SOCOM fine but the others aren't? I just see a lot of talk about how Colt isn't what they used to be but there's very little specifics or problems I'm hearing. Even so the whole thing puts me off of Colt unfortunately.
How do you get the unasembled price? I can't see it.
You have to use the menu on the right of the screen to see the price - the bottom choice is Assembly (optional) - select [I]Unassembled - price should be right up at the top. Also note that everything is seemingly listed as $99.00 except [I]Black for the upper receiver'handguard color - that doesn't add any cost to the price, FDE and UDE add another $99.00.
Why are you sure it would be more accurate?
What is the mil-spec requirement for MOA accuracy?
Here is LaRue's: No LaRue firearm can leave the facility unless it obtains accuracy of less-than 1 MOA (1.047”) at 100 Yards. Each firearm ships with a copy of a 3-round group obtained from that actual firearm.
Even though the Ultimate Upper Un-assembled kits aren't test fired, the one I built shoots sub MOA at 100 yards. So as I said, I'm pretty sure it will #1 - be more accurate than the Colt.
What is the mil-spec requirement for MOA accuracy?
Here is LaRue's: No LaRue firearm can leave the facility unless it obtains accuracy of less-than 1 MOA (1.047”) at 100 Yards. Each firearm ships with a copy of a 3-round group obtained from that actual firearm.
Even though the Ultimate Upper Un-assembled kits aren't test fired, the one I built shoots sub MOA at 100 yards. So as I said, I'm pretty sure it will #1 - be more accurate than the Colt.
Does the mil-spec requirement on accuracy suggest it cannot be exceeded?
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Does the mil-spec requirement on accuracy suggest it cannot be exceeded?
By the same token, does the mil-spec requirement for accuracy suggest that it will be exceeded?
(You want a Socratic dialog, I can play along) :)
By the same token, does the mil-spec requirement for accuracy suggest that it will be exceeded?
(You want a Socratic dialog, I can play along) :)
Well, since you didn’t answer, I pose my question again ;)
Since accuracy requirement with a specific ammunition type known for poor accuracy, and is an indicator of when one must be replaced due to wear...it’s reasonable that an unworn barrel will exceed it.
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Eurodriver
04-24-19, 06:42
What specifically makes the Colts of today worse than older Colts? Are they using inferior materials now? Why is the M4A1 SOCOM fine but the others aren't? I just see a lot of talk about how Colt isn't what they used to be but there's very little specifics or problems I'm hearing. Even so the whole thing puts me off of Colt unfortunately.
There is so much misinformation around Colt, indeed, but none of it is worth listening to.
People try to justify the $1,500 they paid for Colts back when they were that expensive by saying the $899 6920s of today are inferior. That Colt has removed the “white dot” from their bolts has only bolstered their position.
They aren’t better. They aren’t worse. People just want to command that premium when they go to sell. Look at how much people are asking for LE/Restricted Colt lowers. It’s hilarious. I can get an entire 6920 for the price some people ask for those lowers.
There’s a great thread by a great author, probably the greatest of all time in the history of great authors, on here about whether we are on M4C to buy or to shoot.
Those guys are most definitely here to buy, because someone who shoots does not give a flying **** what their rifle says - only that it works.
Buy a 2019 Manufactured 6920 with confidence. It will work.
Doc Safari
04-24-19, 08:44
There is so much misinformation around Colt, indeed, but none of it is worth listening to.
People try to justify the $1,500 they paid for Colts back when they were that expensive by saying the $899 6920s of today are inferior. That Colt has removed the “white dot” from their bolts has only bolstered their position.
OMG. You said it. My Colt that I paid too much for must be an "actual" Colt and the one you got at Wal-Mart is secretly an Expanse.
I'll say it again: All the hand-wringing is just an exercise in futility until actual data comes in over the next few years as to whether modern Colts have indeed declined in quality or not.
grizzlyblake
04-24-19, 09:59
Colt can have QC issues just like anyone else though, so customer service may be something that matters to a buyer. It does to me.
I had a 6920 Trooper show up with a jacked up rail and it took something like two months to send the rifle back to Colt to have it fixed. I think Euro had a repair that took like 6 months.
On the flip side I had a Sionics rifle issue and those guys had me a shipping label that same day, called me during their troubleshooting, and had it back to me in a week.
Eurodriver
04-24-19, 10:40
Colt can have QC issues just like anyone else though, so customer service may be something that matters to a buyer. It does to me.
I had a 6920 Trooper show up with a jacked up rail and it took something like two months to send the rifle back to Colt to have it fixed. I think Euro had a repair that took like 6 months.
On the flip side I had a Sionics rifle issue and those guys had me a shipping label that same day, called me during their troubleshooting, and had it back to me in a week.
It was only 4 months. ;)
That’s still 2 months faster than Surefire took to fix an x400v.
wetidlerjr
04-24-19, 11:07
Can we go back to this?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?213367-Colt%20Now%20Outsourcing%20Almost%20Everything
I’m to the point of why not just buy BCM where quality is known, standards are high, and they are established in the industry? I think they not only meet but exceed the TDP standards.
Well, since you didn’t answer, I pose my question again ;)
Since accuracy requirement with a specific ammunition type known for poor accuracy, and is an indicator of when one must be replaced due to wear...it’s reasonable that an unworn barrel will exceed it.
Better. No doubt. You expect me to be different than any commentator? I spin things to make my point. :jester:
The MOA requirement for the M4 is reportedly 4MOA. I've never actually seen that in 'official' writing. I've also read that STANAG 4172 specs M855A1 to approximately 4MOA, so perhaps that is the limiting factor.
I do know that most folks report better than 4 MOA from their personal Colts.
Here are some quotes about accuracy with the 6920. I can't attribute a source for this one:
Several years ago the Army Marksmanship Unit conducted a study of M16 and M4 rifles. The rifles were rack grade with no modifications. The M16 rifles could hit within a 24 inch circle at 300 yards (the test was conducted on a Known Distance range which is measured in yards not meters). The M4 did slightly worse with a 32 inch diameter circle. This was with standard ammunition. When match grade ammo was fired through the same rifles the results were 12″ and 18″.
These are from threads on M4C:
I have a Colt 6720 lightweight. When shooting standard 55 or 62g fmj I find the accuracy with my gun to be around a foot spread or more at 100 yards (probably more me than the rifle). However, when I use Hornady TAP 75gr hollowpoint, I find it shoots around 2 MOA, sometimes less on a good day.
Mine (6920) shoots about 1.5" at 100 with 62 grain 556 and about 2" with 55 grain 223 so far...my heavy 75 grain hand loads shoot about 1.5"
Lake city 55 gr 556 NATO gives somewhere between 2-2.5" groups under ideal conditions for my old 6920.
Mine shot around 2 moa stock and around 1.5 moa after getting free floated. That's with Federal 55 grn.
My 6920 shoots sub MOA with Federal 62g, and it opens up a bit to about 1.5 inches at 100 yards with Federal 55g. This is bench rested with a Burris MTAC 1.5-6x40 scope.
I have a few. With good ammo they'll all do about 2-3''. I have one with a rail that'll get around 1.5''. Good enough for 99% of AR applications.
My 6920 with larue rail and ML3 shoots 1-2 MOA with M855 and M193.
With LC XM193 i was seeing 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards. The PRVI Partisan 75g match came in around 1.6-1.7 inches for a 10 shot group last time i took it out. I know I've had slightly tighter groups with Federal Gold Medal Match, but I can't find my notes on that one right now. Late 2008 6920, DD Omega Rail, and a TA01 ACOG. Shot from a bench, with a front sandbag.
I've got one of the last 6920s that was made with the large Colt trigger pins . It's free floated with a Troy Alpha and has a 2 MOA Aimpoint. At 100 yards I can get 2 MOA with good quality 55 grain ammo. The larger the grain of bullet I use the more accurate it seems. 62 grain = 1.5-1.75 inch groups. 69 grain = 1.25 to 1.5 inch groups.
I know that side by side INFORMAL accuracy testing was done by an organization of the SCAR-L, M16A4, and M4A1. This was an extremely low density test, but both the A4 and M4 were rack grade, used weapons. IIRC there were only 1 of each weapon tested. The weapons were racked and mechanically fired. M855 was used. All were between 1.25 and 2 MOA. The M4 actually came out on top, but not by much, and remember the low density of the test.
As a result, I would expect most Colts to do much better than 4 MOA using quality ammo. I have yet to put together a rifle using a Colt barrel, so my evidence is purely anecdotal.
I’m to the point of why not just buy BCM where quality is known, standards are high, and they are established in the industry? I think they not only meet but exceed the TDP standards.
You can do that, but comparing a BCM M4 Mod 0 to a Colt 6920 I'm not sure you'll notice much if any difference in performance. It's not possible to exceed the TDP, you either meet it or not. I'm not against deviation, I just want good justification for it.
I’ve read the testing before, but don’t remember where I found it. I believe its required to shoot 4moa, with M855, measured across a composite of 3 10 round groups. And I think it is measured at some distance greater than 100 yards.
Maybe someone else can straighten me out with a link.
Better. No doubt. You expect me to be different than any commentator? I spin things to make my point. :jester:
The MOA requirement for the M4 is reportedly 4MOA. I've never actually seen that in 'official' writing. I've also read that STANAG 4172 specs M855A1 to approximately 4MOA, so perhaps that is the limiting factor.
I do know that most folks report better than 4 MOA from their personal Colts.
Here are some quotes about accuracy with the 6920. I can't attribute a source for this one:
Several years ago the Army Marksmanship Unit conducted a study of M16 and M4 rifles. The rifles were rack grade with no modifications. The M16 rifles could hit within a 24 inch circle at 300 yards (the test was conducted on a Known Distance range which is measured in yards not meters). The M4 did slightly worse with a 32 inch diameter circle. This was with standard ammunition. When match grade ammo was fired through the same rifles the results were 12″ and 18″.
These are from threads on M4C:
I have a Colt 6720 lightweight. When shooting standard 55 or 62g fmj I find the accuracy with my gun to be around a foot spread or more at 100 yards (probably more me than the rifle). However, when I use Hornady TAP 75gr hollowpoint, I find it shoots around 2 MOA, sometimes less on a good day.
Mine (6920) shoots about 1.5" at 100 with 62 grain 556 and about 2" with 55 grain 223 so far...my heavy 75 grain hand loads shoot about 1.5"
Lake city 55 gr 556 NATO gives somewhere between 2-2.5" groups under ideal conditions for my old 6920.
Mine shot around 2 moa stock and around 1.5 moa after getting free floated. That's with Federal 55 grn.
My 6920 shoots sub MOA with Federal 62g, and it opens up a bit to about 1.5 inches at 100 yards with Federal 55g. This is bench rested with a Burris MTAC 1.5-6x40 scope.
I have a few. With good ammo they'll all do about 2-3''. I have one with a rail that'll get around 1.5''. Good enough for 99% of AR applications.
My 6920 with larue rail and ML3 shoots 1-2 MOA with M855 and M193.
With LC XM193 i was seeing 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards. The PRVI Partisan 75g match came in around 1.6-1.7 inches for a 10 shot group last time i took it out. I know I've had slightly tighter groups with Federal Gold Medal Match, but I can't find my notes on that one right now. Late 2008 6920, DD Omega Rail, and a TA01 ACOG. Shot from a bench, with a front sandbag.
I've got one of the last 6920s that was made with the large Colt trigger pins . It's free floated with a Troy Alpha and has a 2 MOA Aimpoint. At 100 yards I can get 2 MOA with good quality 55 grain ammo. The larger the grain of bullet I use the more accurate it seems. 62 grain = 1.5-1.75 inch groups. 69 grain = 1.25 to 1.5 inch groups.
I know that side by side INFORMAL accuracy testing was done by an organization of the SCAR-L, M16A4, and M4A1. This was an extremely low density test, but both the A4 and M4 were rack grade, used weapons. IIRC there were only 1 of each weapon tested. The weapons were racked and mechanically fired. M855 was used. All were between 1.25 and 2 MOA. The M4 actually came out on top, but not by much, and remember the low density of the test.
As a result, I would expect most Colts to do much better than 4 MOA using quality ammo. I have yet to put together a rifle using a Colt barrel, so my evidence is purely anecdotal.
I see some limitations with this anecdotal evidence. Sights, triggers, and large ammunition variation. How many rounds per group?
How many rounds will the barrel maintain that kind of accuracy for over the service life?
As you know, three round groups are statistically insignificant.
Further, just comparing barrels, which is what we are doing here, also leaves an unknown as to the fit of the rest of the rifle. How does the barrel for the extension? What is the engagement of lugs like on that particular bolt?
There are lots of things going into accuracy. I don’t think you can isolate simply the barrel in this whole process and state the Colt barrel is inferior or superior.
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What is the mil-spec requirement for MOA accuracy?
Here is LaRue's: No LaRue firearm can leave the facility unless it obtains accuracy of less-than 1 MOA (1.047”) at 100 Yards. Each firearm ships with a copy of a 3-round group obtained from that actual firearm.
Even though the Ultimate Upper Un-assembled kits aren't test fired, the one I built shoots sub MOA at 100 yards. So as I said, I'm pretty sure it will #1 - be more accurate than the Colt.Any truth to the speculation that the unassembled ones are the culls from the accuracy test?
Any truth to the speculation that the unassembled ones are the culls from the accuracy test?
No
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Renegade04
04-24-19, 14:19
You can do that, but comparing a BCM M4 Mod 0 to a Colt 6920 I'm not sure you'll notice much if any difference in performance. It's not possible to exceed the TDP, you either meet it or not. I'm not against deviation, I just want good justification for it.
The TDP ONLY applies to military weapons. It has no function with commercial production ARs. That said, any manufacturer can exceed the TDP or mil-spec standards in their civilian ARs. In turn, any manufacturer can choose to produce at a lesser standard. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the BCM M4 Mod 0. It is a stellar AR as there are many others. It is a viable option over the Colt 6920 any day of the week.
I see some limitations with this anecdotal evidence. Sights, triggers, and large ammunition variation. How many rounds per group?
How many rounds will the barrel maintain that kind of accuracy for over the service life?
As you know, three round groups are statistically insignificant.
Further, just comparing barrels, which is what we are doing here, also leaves an unknown as to the fit of the rest of the rifle. How does the barrel for the extension? What is the engagement of lugs like on that particular bolt?
There are lots of things going into accuracy. I don’t think you can isolate simply the barrel in this whole process and state the Colt barrel is inferior or superior.
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While I agree, that doesn't support my belief that LaRue barrels are superior to Colt 6920 barrels. ;)
Most of the results I posted were from rifles fired off sandbags or rests, I would imagine with either red dots or low power scopes, which would impact precision. Ammunition and triggers are also variables.
I'm sure LaRue uses a fixture of some type to hold the upper or complete rifle. Also, they state with match ammo.
And then you have the intended purpose of the rifles, my LaRue wasn't intended to be a SHTF, Zombie Slayer, infantry rifle.
The TDP ONLY applies to military weapons. It has no function with commercial production ARs. That said, any manufacturer can exceed the TDP or mil-spec standards in their civilian ARs. In turn, any manufacturer can choose to produce at a lesser standard. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the BCM M4 Mod 0. It is a stellar AR as there are many others. It is a viable option over the Colt 6920 any day of the week.
Respectfully sir, you're wrong. Technical manufacturing specifications are black and white, you either meet the specs or you don't. And for something that has no function with commercial ARs everybody seems to be copying it. ;) You're talking about "eye of the beholder" stuff.
The TDP ONLY applies to military weapons. It has no function with commercial production ARs. That said, any manufacturer can exceed the TDP or mil-spec standards in their civilian ARs. In turn, any manufacturer can choose to produce at a lesser standard. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the BCM M4 Mod 0. It is a stellar AR as there are many others. It is a viable option over the Colt 6920 any day of the week.
I don’t think he was talking about BCM quality one way or the other. His point is that a specification is just that...specific. There is no “exceeding”. You either meet it or you don’t.
BCM May well be better than the sum total of the TDP. But in the manufacturing/quality arena, it’s either to the specs or it isn’t.
I say this as someone who is a Manufacturing Manager at my day job.
Also I'm not a fan of unions. This is another reason not to buy Colt. The union mentality has probably not been good for the company or quality.
Also I'm not a fan of unions. This is another reason not to buy Colt. The union mentality has probably not been good for the company or quality.
Unions are a cancer. But, it’s hard to avoid them.
I know I didn’t choose my vehicle based on unions, but I did think about it in the process. I ultimately chose based on product alone.
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Any truth to the speculation that the unassembled ones are the culls from the accuracy test?
How would anyone here be able to give an honest answer to insider info?
Unions are a cancer. But, it’s hard to avoid them.
I know I didn’t choose my vehicle based on unions, but I did think about it in the process. I ultimately chose based on product alone.
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Unions are why you don't live like your nineteenth century forbears, working 14 hour days in miserable, dangerous conditions in exchange for a bowl of soup and a pallet on the floor of a tenement.
I'm thinking our descendants will learn what that's like, all over again.
Unions are why you don't live like your nineteenth century forbears, working 14 hour days in miserable, dangerous conditions in exchange for a bowl of soup and a pallet on the floor of a tenement.
I'm thinking our descendants will learn what that's like, all over again.
That’s going a bit off-topic. Certainly a day existed when unions were helpful. Cell regeneration is helpful, but when it’s out of control, it becomes cancer. Unions are out of control. Unions are cancer.
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Bottom line- right now there are better choices. Choices that don't involve questioning weather or not they are still good.
Bottom line- right now there are better choices. Choices that don't involve questioning weather or not they are still good.
Why is Colt being questioned? What empirical evidence is there they have relaxed their quality, other than a disgruntled employee making videos? Basically we are relying on rumors.
What if I started a rumor that BCM’s quality slipped? Or LMT? Would we have threads going on about whether or not we should avoid them based on this rumor I start?
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Why is Colt being questioned? What empirical evidence is there they have relaxed their quality, other than a disgruntled employee making videos? Basically we are relying on rumors.
What if I started a rumor that BCM’s quality slipped? Or LMT? Would we have threads going on about whether or not we should avoid them based on this rumor I start?
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Bankruptcy may have a lot to do with it. That kinda gives one the impression there was/are some mismanagement, poor leadership, bad execution. All that trickles down.
I like Colt. I route for companies like Colt. They have made top quality products and are an American icon. To me owning a Colt is more than owning a well made (gold standard) AR; it’s also a piece of Americana and as a huge history buff and patriot I like stuff like that.
I own two 6920’s. The first is a 2011 and the second is a 2016. The 2011 has run like a champ and was a near perfect specimen. The 2016, cosmetically, was a hack job. There is fit and finish (minor scuffs, anodizing color, etc) and there is just plain sloppiness. The 2016 lower had file and pitting marks all over it. They replaced it and said it was “out of spec”. I have never seen an AR with those types of marks at any price point.
They have had union issues and were faced with high demand a few years ago. There were people there that were obviously letting stuff out that shouldn’t have gone out.
Until I hear stories of newer production rifles choking I’m content that from a functional standpoint, they are still good to go. But I won’t make excuses for corner cutting even if it’s cosmetic. It’s natural to wonder where else corners have been cut when you see something like that.
I’ve had 4 Colts. Two 6920. 6720 and AR15A4. Fit and finish and functionality has been perfect on each. The 6720 and AR15A4 were 2017 or 18 manufacture. The 6920s were 2013. These threads are the bane of my existence but I cannot stop reading them. I feel stupid now.
RVTMaverick
04-25-19, 09:53
LOL.... Crazy isn't it....
I’ve had 4 Colts. Two 6920. 6720 and AR15A4. Fit and finish and functionality has been perfect on each. The 6720 and AR15A4 were 2017 or 18 manufacture. The 6920s were 2013. These threads are the bane of my existence but I cannot stop reading them. I feel stupid now.
m1a convert
04-27-19, 13:10
Attended a carbine course last fall. It was four days with roughly 1500 rds through my Colt SOCOM. the rifle has had roughly 1500 rds. through it prior to the course, not one hicup...Guns were run moderately hard in dusty conditions.
I've owned many Colts through the years (6920, SOCOM, 6940); some have been pretty, others not so much. They have all run flawlessly regardless of what I've fed them.
In my opinion, look elsewhere if you are interested in a flawless safequeen. If you want a tool that goes bang every time, a Colt may be for you. Add good mags and lube and you are on the right track.
ChairborneRanger
04-27-19, 13:53
IMHO, if you want to go top of the line, look at the likes of Knight Armament, Daniel Defense, Noveske, Lewis Machine & Tool (LMT), Wilson Combat, FN and the like. Similar to when it comes to 1911s, Colt is no longer considered to be "state of the art."
jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 14:11
At Colt’s price point there are way better rifles out there. I would put my FN 15 Carbine against anything Colt makes. I have ran a Binary Trigger on it with not one problem. Smoking barrel fun. I mainly run an older single stage POF 3.5lbs trigger on it. It is accurate as hell. Not because the FN trigger was bad. I just love light triggers lol. Colt has gone down hill in quality. I have a 6920 SOCOM that feels cheap compared to my FN. does my Colt function yes. Does it function like it is worth what I paid for it no. I have over 8 Colt 1911’s. Mostly Custom Shop M45A1’s. Even on them I can see the quality varies. You get a test target with it. 5 rounds at 15 feet in a gun rest. Not one of them can put a tight group in the center. Over 2 grand each and they are not accurate WTH? I actually sent one back to Colt for a refund because the quality was so poor. Custom Shop’s are supposed to be hand finished. How could a professional gunsmith allow such poor quality to leave the factory? My Kimber can group at 1.5” to 2” at 25 feet from a rest. Only $1200. I love Colt’s. They just have lost their way. Sorry I lost my way and got on the 1911’s as well. All of mine get shot. No safe queens except the USMC Decommissioned. We see that whole scenario did not work out for the USMC Raiders.
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ChairborneRanger
04-27-19, 14:40
At Colt’s price point there are way better rifles out there. I would put my FN 15 Carbine against anything Colt makes. I have ran a Binary Trigger on it with not one problem. Smoking barrel fun. I mainly run an older single stage POF 3.5lbs trigger on it. It is accurate as hell. Not because the FN trigger was bad. I just love light triggers lol. Colt has gone down hill in quality. I have a 6920 SOCOM that feels cheap compared to my FN. does my Colt function yes. Does it function like it is worth what I paid for it no. I have over 8 Colt 1911’s. Mostly Custom Shop M45A1’s. Even on them I can see the quality varies. You get a test target with it. 5 rounds at 15 feet in a gun rest. Not one of them can put a tight group in the center. Over 2 grand each and they are not accurate WTH? I actually sent one back to Colt for a refund because the quality was so poor. Custom Shop’s are supposed to be hand finished. How could a professional gunsmith allow such poor quality to leave the factory? My Kimber can group at 1.5” to 2” at 25 feet from a rest. Only $1200. I love Colt’s. They just have lost their way. Sorry I lost my way and got on the 1911’s as well. All of mine get shot. No safe queens except the USMC Decommissioned. We see that whole scenario did not work out for the USMC Raiders.
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Well said jacksonrobert----exactly!
At Colt’s price point there are way better rifles out there. I would put my FN 15 Carbine against anything Colt makes. I have ran a Binary Trigger on it with not one problem. Smoking barrel fun. I mainly run an older single stage POF 3.5lbs trigger on it. It is accurate as hell. Not because the FN trigger was bad. I just love light triggers lol. Colt has gone down hill in quality. I have a 6920 SOCOM that feels cheap compared to my FN. does my Colt function yes. Does it function like it is worth what I paid for it no. I have over 8 Colt 1911’s. Mostly Custom Shop M45A1’s. Even on them I can see the quality varies. You get a test target with it. 5 rounds at 15 feet in a gun rest. Not one of them can put a tight group in the center. Over 2 grand each and they are not accurate WTH? I actually sent one back to Colt for a refund because the quality was so poor. Custom Shop’s are supposed to be hand finished. How could a professional gunsmith allow such poor quality to leave the factory? My Kimber can group at 1.5” to 2” at 25 feet from a rest. Only $1200. I love Colt’s. They just have lost their way. Sorry I lost my way and got on the 1911’s as well. All of mine get shot. No safe queens except the USMC Decommissioned. We see that whole scenario did not work out for the USMC Raiders.
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How has colt “gone down hill” in quality?
It functions, but not for the price you paid? What does that even mean?
Honest questions.
ChairborneRanger
04-27-19, 14:51
Just as an aside----and thinking back to the period prior to and then during the early days of the Assault Weapons Ban (1994-2004), Colt was one of the "go to" ARs. Some of you older guys will remember that the stock answer as to which "Ar to buy" went something along the lines of, "just remember, A, B, C-----Armalite, Bushmaster &/or Colt." That. of course, was the situation then, but it most definitely is not now.....
ChairborneRanger
04-27-19, 15:02
How has colt “gone down hill” in quality?
It functions, but not for the price you paid? What does that even mean?
Honest questions.
Well, I suspect jacksonrobert will have his own input on this, however, to me it includes poor component fit & finish, rough tooling marks left on parts, the use of sintered steel and metal injection molded parts instead of firearm parts that are forged or milled from bar stock, "creepy" & gritty triggers, improperly tempered springs.....
jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 15:09
ChairborneRanger I could not said it better. [emoji106][emoji16]
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m1a convert
04-27-19, 16:00
My next AR15 is going to be a basic but high quality carbine. Colt was first on my list until I read the thread about Colt outsourcing and seen people like Chris Bartocci slam Colt.
Are they still a baseline reference of a well made mil spec AR?
Basic = LE6920
High Quality = Colt
Baseline ... No. Gold standard...IMHO.
;)
Wow, there sure is a wide variance in opinion in this thread.....and I don't agree with most of what has been said today.
I don't think many (any) would seriously state that Colt is a Gold Standard in anything they produce.
Wow. This place is starting to be like,” that other site”.
m1a convert
04-27-19, 16:45
Just curious. Why do so many compare everything else to Colt?
Yes, I have others but I do drink the "C"oolaide...
The OP asked about a basic, quality carbine. The high end manufacturers mentioned previously are anything but basic. Just opinion, that's all.
Well, I suspect jacksonrobert will have his own input on this, however, to me it includes poor component fit & finish, rough tooling marks left on parts, the use of sintered steel and metal injection molded parts instead of firearm parts that are forged or milled from bar stock, "creepy" & gritty triggers, improperly tempered springs.....
ChairborneRanger I could not said it better. [emoji106][emoji16]
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So you are saying that colt has gotten away from the original TDP? Materials have changed from what was originally spec’d?
If so, what is different? What is now MIM in the current base 6920, that wasn’t in the past?
wetidlerjr
04-27-19, 17:32
Wow. This place is starting to be like,” that other site”.
You got that right.
Colt Defense is still good to go. Colt also makes 1911s and has a outsourced Rifle line. The non Colt Defense Carbines are NOT military grade "Expanse." It's a consumer grade Carbine. Virtually every component is not truly military grade per Colt. It's a good budget range toy, but I would shell out the cash for an 6920 OEM if you are on a budget. The 1911s are like a crap shoot as far as fit and finish, but they are good quality and well made. The Colt 1911 .22s are made by another company. I honestly do not know how the Colt Competition rifles are, but I would go with Colt Defense for anything used as a defensive carbine.
Eurodriver
04-27-19, 19:08
At Colt’s price point there are way better rifles out there. I would put my FN 15 Carbine against anything Colt makes.
My Kimber can group at 1.5” to 2” at 25 feet from a rest. Only $1200. I love Colt’s. They just have lost their way.
Sorry I lost my way and got on the 1911’s as well. All of mine get shot. No safe queens except the USMC Decommissioned. We see that whole scenario did not work out for the USMC Raiders.
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I find it difficult to trust an individual when they come in espousing the qualities of Kimber in a thread about quality and reliability.
I bought a 6920 in 2016,put a colt 14.5” m4 barrel (pinned and welded),geissele ssa trigger and a ta31 h-g.it has about 3,500-4,000 ish rounds with nary a hiccup.i am very happy with its performance.
The build specs are pretty easy to find,I would compare with others in the price range(if they are even disclosed!!).to me the choice was an easy one.
I feel mine was an excellent value and have not experienced buyers remorse in the three years I have owned it.
Ymmv.
I agree. Nothing but flawless operation out of the 6920 I bought back in 2012. While I only have about 350-400 rounds through it so far I thoroughly enjoy shooting this Colt. Very satisfied with it.
jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 20:00
You must have never shot a Kimber. My is an older one though. I thought we were talking current Colt products since their Bankruptcy? Am I mistaken? Every gun I was talking about are current products from 2015-2018. I can only speak for what I own and shoot. I must be the only person to get a few Colt lemons. Especially the Custom Shop one I returned. That was just this year. I bought it in 2018 and could no longer accept the poor quality. Even the ambidextrous thumb safety’s were 2 different colors. The right was one color and the left was another. Had it 6 months. Return it under warranty for a full refund. Have you ever felt or fired a FN 15? The Army sure thought highly enough of them to give FN a contract a few times. The last one was split between FN and Colt I believe. Seriously if you get a chance look at a current FN 15 and a Colt you will see the difference in quality. Take it apart. Look at every part. Then if you are lucky enough fire one back to back. Then give your opinion. I gave my honest opinion of my experiences. I am still looking at Colt products and always will. Do I believe they are the best? Hell No. Do I think their quality is not the same as 10 years ago? Hell yes. That is all this thread is about. Our opinions and experiences. Not a Fan Boy to one Brand.
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I agree. Nothing but flawless operation out of the 6920 I bought back in 2012. While I only have about 350-400 rounds through it so far I thoroughly enjoy shooting this Colt. Very satisfied with it.
No offense, but if that's the only benchmark you have to make a judgement, it's a very poor one. 400 rounds is, quite literally, a drop in the bucket. I do that on single range days at times. For a seven year old rifle, that's like shooting 2 magazines annually.
There's a thread on TOS from a high-volume gun range in Vegas, and the Colts seem to hold up fine (granted, it's purely "rounds fired" and not actually accuracy at distance that they're measuring). Seems like Colt is still GTG, though I agree there are great options at competitive prices.
m1a convert
04-27-19, 20:11
I find it difficult to trust an individual when they come in espousing the qualities of Kimber in a thread about quality and reliability.
That's a +1
You must have never shot a Kimber. My is an older one though. I thought we were talking current Colt products since their Bankruptcy? Am I mistaken? Every gun I was talking about are current products from 2015-2018. I can only speak for what I own and shoot. I must be the only person to get a few Colt lemons. Especially the Custom Shop one I returned. That was just this year. I bought it in 2018 and could no longer accept the poor quality. Even the ambidextrous thumb safety’s were 2 different colors. The right was one color and the left was another. Had it 6 months. Return it under warranty for a full refund. Have you ever felt or fired a FN 15? The Army sure thought highly enough of them to give FN a contract a few times. The last one was split between FN and Colt I believe. Seriously if you get a chance look at a current FN 15 and a Colt you will see the difference in quality. Take it apart. Look at every part. Then if you are lucky enough fire one back to back. Then give your opinion. I gave my honest opinion of my experiences. I am still looking at Colt products and always will. Do I believe they are the best? Hell No. Do I think their quality is not the same as 10 years ago? Hell yes. That is all this thread is about. Our opinions and experiences. Not a Fan Boy to one Brand.
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You still haven’t addressed my specific questions posed to you above. What aspects of the TDP are no longer adhered to on the 6920? What parts are now MIM that weren’t previously in the base 6920?
What did you mean when you said your colt functions, but not for the price you paid?
You must have never shot a Kimber. My is an older one though. I thought we were talking current Colt products since their Bankruptcy? Am I mistaken? Every gun I was talking about are current products from 2015-2018. I can only speak for what I own and shoot. I must be the only person to get a few Colt lemons. Especially the Custom Shop one I returned. That was just this year. I bought it in 2018 and could no longer accept the poor quality. Even the ambidextrous thumb safety’s were 2 different colors. The right was one color and the left was another. Had it 6 months. Return it under warranty for a full refund. Have you ever felt or fired a FN 15? The Army sure thought highly enough of them to give FN a contract a few times. The last one was split between FN and Colt I believe. Seriously if you get a chance look at a current FN 15 and a Colt you will see the difference in quality. Take it apart. Look at every part. Then if you are lucky enough fire one back to back. Then give your opinion. I gave my honest opinion of my experiences. I am still looking at Colt products and always will. Do I believe they are the best? Hell No. Do I think their quality is not the same as 10 years ago? Hell yes. That is all this thread is about. Our opinions and experiences. Not a Fan Boy to one Brand.
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Specifically what are you suggesting is better about the FN15?
You do realize the FN sold to the military is not the same as the FN sold to the consumer, right?
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jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 20:15
I want to retract what I said about the Army contracts. That does not mean anything about what we are discussing. We all know Military Issue and Civilian versions are 2 different animals. [emoji106][emoji16]
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Lots of Fudd here.. I purchased a new 6920 OEM for well under $700 transferred. I typically build my own with military contract parts. I have purchased a number of Colts over the years, starting in 2000. I have military contract parts that date back to the early 70s NOS. Colt Defense makes the best carbine around $800 period. FNs parts are finished very well, but inferior in function by and large to Colt. I prefer to build with Colt Defense parts. Colt Defense and Colt 1911s have tech that is proprietary that you will not see in most other manufacturers and in some cases completely unique to Colt. To get a Colt Defense carbine equivalent, you are paying much more for something that may in fact be inferior. FNs newer cheaper rifles are not military grade, despite being nicely made per many who have military FNs. The devils in the details. I've read the Fudd over the years, folks just don't understand the difference between military parts and inferior parts. There's no guarantee redesigned parts made out of various vaperware are going to hold up versus TMd parts with proven military use. 1911s are a different story. You will not get a true 1911 these days for cheap. It will have some MIM and lack forged components and be an assembly line build. So know what your paying for. Most niche parts manufacturers are very pricey, you get what you pay for in this category in most cases for forged bar stock, properly tempered, and properly coated and finished parts...
jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 20:37
Everything on my 6920 is gritty and lacks smoothness. You know that shiny new penny, well it was not a few of my Colt products. The trigger is not even close to the FN’s. God are you really going to go into the Colt M4 crap and not making their own parts? Someone already established that Colt is not making their BCG. Have you fired an FN? Of course not. You are a Colt Fan Boy. You are changing this thread into another thread that has already been beat to the ground. If you can’t see past the roll mark you will never know what is better or worse. I have more important things to do then live on forums. I replied and you disagree. So what. I think it is funny you seriously believe nothing could possibly be bad about Colt. Picture of my target zeroing the FN. 25 yards indoor range. Battlesight Zero. 25 is the 200 of course. Just cheap 55 grain Ammo. Not even 77gr Blackhills that 1 in 7 loves. Iron Sights! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190428/13b821b39cf3fee282ab8c8107f81366.jpg
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jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 20:44
Lots of Fudd here.. I purchased a new 6920 OEM for well under $700 transferred. I typically build my own with military contract parts. I have purchased a number of Colts over the years, starting in 2000. I have military contract parts that date back to the early 70s NOS. Colt Defense makes the best carbine around $800 period. FNs parts are finished very well, but inferior in function by and large to Colt. I prefer to build with Colt Defense parts. Colt Defense and Colt 1911s have tech that is proprietary that you will not see in most other manufacturers and in some cases completely unique to Colt. To get a Colt Defense carbine equivalent, you are paying much more for something that may in fact be inferior. FNs newer cheaper rifles are not military grade, despite being nicely made per many who have military FNs. The devils in the details. I've read the Fudd over the years, folks just don't understand the difference between military parts and inferior parts. There's no guarantee redesigned parts made out of various vaperware are going to hold up versus TMd parts with proven military use. 1911s are a different story. You will not get a true 1911 these days for cheap. It will have some MIM and lack forged components and be an assembly line build. So know what your paying for. Most niche parts manufacturers are very pricey, you get what you pay for in this category in most cases for forged bar stock, properly tempered, and properly coated and finished parts...
My reply was not to you. Big difference between what you buy off the shelf vs what you build. I don’t think many manufacturers make 100% of their parts anymore. It is not financially beneficial. I understand and agree with your reply and input.
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Nobody here is going to running a Colt that hard that it would matter. Honestly most of you could get Anderson Lowers and Delton uppers and be just fine.
Nobody here is going to running a Colt that hard that it would matter. Honestly most of you could get Anderson Lowers and Delton uppers and be just fine.
He’s right y’all know
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Everything on my 6920 is gritty and lacks smoothness. You know that shiny new penny, well it was not a few of my Colt products. The trigger is not even close to the FN’s. God are you really going to go into the Colt M4 crap and not making their own parts? Someone already established that Colt is not making their BCG. Have you fired an FN? Of course not. You are a Colt Fan Boy. You are changing this thread into another thread that has already been beat to the ground. If you can’t see past the roll mark you will never know what is better or worse. I have more important things to do then live on forums. I replied and you disagree. So what. I think it is funny you seriously believe nothing could possibly be bad about Colt. Picture of my target zeroing the FN. 25 yards indoor range. Battlesight Zero. 25 is the 200 of course. Just cheap 55 grain Ammo. Not even 77gr Blackhills that 1 in 7 loves. Iron Sights! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190428/13b821b39cf3fee282ab8c8107f81366.jpg
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Nowhere near being a Colt fanboy. But you’ve showed your hand here.
You base 25 yard indoor range shooting as real experience and stuff “feeling” rough? I mean it doesn’t seem like you’ve ever truly run your rifle hard.
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Nobody here is going to running a Colt that hard that it would matter. Honestly most of you could get Anderson Lowers and Delton uppers and be just fine.
That is why BCM is so popular here. Same concept.
My reply was not directed at you by any means. I hit the general reply. Just fyi Colt Defense contracts many of their parts also. DOD requires many different sources to ensure the supply is not sabotaged by taking a parts manufacturer out of the game. There are a handful of American parts manufacturers that make TM parts. If you research you can find them. They won't talk to you unless you are a manufacturer. And they can't discuss DOD contracts. However, you can source their parts to resellers.
That is why BCM is so popular here. Same concept.
Chortle
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I have a FN BCG in my SPR. It's very nicely finished but it is not a Colt Defense BCG. The greenish parked finish is not as durable as the gray Colt finish. It does look pretty. Many very attractive parts that fall short of Colt Defense parts. That said there are many parts resellers that sell the same parts that are sold to Colt Defense and FNH Defense, just not inspected by their QC so...
Everything on my 6920 is gritty and lacks smoothness. You know that shiny new penny, well it was not a few of my Colt products. The trigger is not even close to the FN’s. God are you really going to go into the Colt M4 crap and not making their own parts? Someone already established that Colt is not making their BCG. Have you fired an FN? Of course not. You are a Colt Fan Boy. You are changing this thread into another thread that has already been beat to the ground. If you can’t see past the roll mark you will never know what is better or worse. I have more important things to do then live on forums. I replied and you disagree. So what. I think it is funny you seriously believe nothing could possibly be bad about Colt. Picture of my target zeroing the FN. 25 yards indoor range. Battlesight Zero. 25 is the 200 of course. Just cheap 55 grain Ammo. Not even 77gr Blackhills that 1 in 7 loves. Iron Sights! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190428/13b821b39cf3fee282ab8c8107f81366.jpg
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Nah man, you made specific claims and I asked for specific answers for clarification of those claims...you know, in case I could learn something from YOUR experience. I’ll give up on that, since as the post a few above mine points out...you’ve shown your hand.
As to the fanboy comment. I own over 3 dozen firearms and exactly ONE is a colt. It’s not my nicest AR, but it wasn’t the most expensive either. It does exactly what it is supposed to do. The number of times you’ve stroked off about your FN rifle is a clue to the real fandom tho.
This place is USUALLY about learning from each other, just a heads up.
And yeah Fly and Doc...I’d be fine with a cheap AR because in a HD pinch I’m grabbing a pistol anyway. But that’s not what this thread is about.
jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 21:51
Nowhere near being a Colt fanboy. But you’ve showed your hand here.
You base 25 yard indoor range shooting as real experience and stuff “feeling” rough? I mean it doesn’t seem like you’ve ever truly run your rifle hard.
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The OEM trigger on my FN breaks clean and is smooth. The Colt feels like a standard gritty military trigger that it is and has to be around 8lbs it feels like. If I am not using terms or words that you don’t understand I cannot help you [emoji2369][emoji848]. Do you need all the colorful adjectives? It needs a better trigger. Then the question about accuracy of the Colt. The FN comes with a match grade Barrel. The SOCOM is supposed to be extremely accurate. Both are chrome lined. The Colt is HB. I know these terms are new to you too right? Maybe after I replace the trigger it might be more accurate for me. As I said once again the quality does not feel the same. Take it however you want to. Now you are trying to tell me how I use my weapons also lol [emoji23]. You are funny as hell. So you have never shot a FN 15 Tactical Carbine II? So what makes you the expert on my experiences and opinions? Seriously you have turned someone’s opinion into what you think it should be. You sound like a liberal. Are you allowed to hold a weapon? I see what you really are. A Colt employee. Never go on a brand forum and give truthful experience with that brand if it is negative. Someone will troll you.
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jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 21:53
This place is USUALLY about learning from each other, just a heads up.
Yes you would think so right.
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jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 22:03
[emoji106]
The OEM trigger on my FN breaks clean and is smooth. The Colt feels like a standard gritty military trigger that it is and has to be around 8lbs it feels like. If I am not using terms or words that you don’t understand I cannot help you [emoji2369][emoji848]. Do you need all the colorful adjectives? It needs a better trigger. Then the question about accuracy of the Colt. The FN comes with a match grade Barrel. The SOCOM is supposed to be extremely accurate. Both are chrome lined. The Colt is HB. I know these terms are new to you too right? Maybe after I replace the trigger it might be more accurate for me. As I said once again the quality does not feel the same. Take it however you want to. Now you are trying to tell me how I use my weapons also lol [emoji23]. You are funny as hell. So you have never shot a FN 15 Tactical Carbine II? So what makes you the expert on my experiences and opinions? Seriously you have turned someone’s opinion into what you think it should be. You sound like a liberal. Are you allowed to hold a weapon? I see what you really are. A Colt employee. Never go on a brand forum and give truthful experience with that brand if it is negative. Someone will troll you.
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Yes, I’ve fired the FN. Multiple examples even.
Clearly not worth my time. Have a good one buddy.
jacksonrobert
04-27-19, 22:14
JC5188
Yet you still have not fired a FN 15 TACTICAL CARBINE II. You are the expert on it though it seems. I just reply how I see it. Must of been some truth in my reply. Good luck in you giving expert friendly advice and feedback. Really positive.
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Yes.
Now that I've answered that, let's move on to something different....
Yes.
Now that I've answered that, let's move on to something different....
Finally. A reply that doesn’t make me want to stab my eyes out. I hate being sober when everyone else is wasted.
Yes.
Now that I've answered that, let's move on to something different....
Finally. A reply that doesn’t make me want to stab my eyes out. I hate being sober when everyone else is wasted.
Not sure if these were aimed at me also, but I’m just trying to understand comments he made.
Specifically (paraphrasing)
“My colt functions but not as it should for what it cost”.
....it’s a basic carbine. I wouldn’t expect a match trigger, if that’s what he’s saying...
“Colt quality has gone downhill”
...to my knowledge the 6920 is the same as it’s been re: quality, made to the same TDP. Whether parts are marked differently one can argue but the specs are the same. Has he some other documented info to the contrary? If so, I’d like to know. Instead of ooh...ooh...FN GOOD, COLT BAD....
I don’t care two shits about brands.
Also,
It seems lately that one can’t engage in a conversation without a bunch of drive-by snark from other senior members. This comment isnt aimed at anyone in particular, just a general comment.
m1a convert
04-28-19, 00:55
Colts are terrible nasty rifles. They should all be sent to me and I will take care of the rest...:cool:
The OEM trigger on my FN breaks clean and is smooth. The Colt feels like a standard gritty military trigger that it is and has to be around 8lbs it feels like. If I am not using terms or words that you don’t understand I cannot help you [emoji2369][emoji848]. Do you need all the colorful adjectives? It needs a better trigger. Then the question about accuracy of the Colt. The FN comes with a match grade Barrel. The SOCOM is supposed to be extremely accurate. Both are chrome lined. The Colt is HB. I know these terms are new to you too right? Maybe after I replace the trigger it might be more accurate for me. As I said once again the quality does not feel the same. Take it however you want to. Now you are trying to tell me how I use my weapons also lol [emoji23]. You are funny as hell. So you have never shot a FN 15 Tactical Carbine II? So what makes you the expert on my experiences and opinions? Seriously you have turned someone’s opinion into what you think it should be. You sound like a liberal. Are you allowed to hold a weapon? I see what you really are. A Colt employee. Never go on a brand forum and give truthful experience with that brand if it is negative. Someone will troll you.
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Colt Defense FCGs are a hit or miss. I have one from 2000 that's supposed to be a match trigger and it's horrible. I have one from a 6920 2016 that's really crisp. I have a coated "S" marked Colt FCG which are pretty rare that is the best I have come across. It's my personal belief that Colt Defense makes heavy FCGs because when your adrenaline is dumping you tend to lose fine motor skills and it reduces unintended discharge. I agree 100% that a Colt Defense FCG is most often crap and if you are a sniper or competitor you need to replace it with a better trigger. I have a SOCOM with a RISII and it group's 3-4inches at 400 meters from prone with a non magnified red dot. That's a 14.5" barrel with a Saker four prong flash hider and a 6920 lower. So I ddon't feel it's a critical issue personally. I have a two stage in my SPR because it has a 25x optic and shoots out beyond 1500 meters in valkyrie. I learned from a factory smith how to prep a milspec FCG years ago and it makes a big difference but you can only do so much to a milspec FCG even if you know what you're doing. I'm glad to hear FN is making quality milspec FCGs maybe I'll pick a take off up someday and try it out. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't use a NB coated disconnect. That makes a big difference, but it's not TM compliant yet to my knowledge.
Not sure if these were aimed at me also.
Not really.
Not really.
Fair enough. Thanks
Chris Bartocci says not. Says nothing is made in house anymore. But that's just his opinion.
Doc Safari
04-28-19, 10:44
I will repeat what someone posted earlier. The gun rental range in Vegas runs their Colts HARD. They are good to go. Now everybody go buy a Colt and shut up.
Colt Defense FCGs are a hit or miss. I have one from 2000 that's supposed to be a match trigger and it's horrible. I have one from a 6920 2016 that's really crisp. I have a coated "S" marked Colt FCG which are pretty rare that is the best I have come across. It's my personal belief that Colt Defense makes heavy FCGs because when your adrenaline is dumping you tend to lose fine motor skills and it reduces unintended discharge. I agree 100% that a Colt Defense FCG is most often crap and if you are a sniper or competitor you need to replace it with a better trigger. I have a SOCOM with a RISII and it group's 3-4inches at 400 meters from prone with a non magnified red dot. That's a 14.5" barrel with a Saker four prong flash hider and a 6920 lower. So I ddon't feel it's a critical issue personally. I have a two stage in my SPR because it has a 25x optic and shoots out beyond 1500 meters in valkyrie. I learned from a factory smith how to prep a milspec FCG years ago and it makes a big difference but you can only do so much to a milspec FCG even if you know what you're doing. I'm glad to hear FN is making quality milspec FCGs maybe I'll pick a take off up someday and try it out. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't use a NB coated disconnect. That makes a big difference, but it's not TM compliant yet to my knowledge.
Are you guys really getting all bent up over factory mil spec triggers? Like omg why.
Some are decent, most are crap, but they function as intended.
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Chris Bartocci says not. Says nothing is made in house anymore. But that's just his opinion.
Chris is great, I have a copy of BLACK Rifle II and it'ssstill 100% relevant. Soon we willnneed a BRIII. I have also discussed a number of issues with Chris over the years on forums and had a great conversation with him via email. Chris' YouTube video where he discusses Colt Expanse and basically how it's crap: is this what you are referring to? It's important to understand per Colt the Expanse line is not a military grade product, with mostly different parts. The 1911 shop has suffered from the bankruptcy. I can't comment to the quality of the 1911s, but I will say Colt has some great proprietary tech they put into both the Defense and 1911 line. I would guess they need to adopt MIM to keep costs down. The most expensive production 1911s hitting $2000+ have MIM sadly. I personally hate MIM. Ihhave worked on older Colt 1911s, and they have zero MIM. I have read discussions on 1911 forums saying their mod line models are mostly forged components pre shop overhaul a few years ago. An example is the dual spring assembly used in the new 1911 which Colt adopted in their line, and now many others are following. Colt also has old mothballed tech. that has been released in newer products that was once determined to be une unnecessary from the perspective of the bean counters. Considering the prices of Colt 1911s it is impressive they had mostly non MIM. But things change and ultimately Colt is a business that needs profits to survive. The military is no longer using the 1911 for the most part, so it's now a consumer thing. Personally I carry a Springfield Custom 1911A1, and Walthers. I used 1911 in the Navy, M9, Sigs. I prefer the 1911A1. I also carried an XD for a while, I preferred it over a Glock. I still believe the XDm/s line is a better hammer than a Glock. I like the XD trigger, sights, and barrel better, also liked the early frames better. The ergonomics of the new XDs are still better than new Glocks, same as the older XDs and Glocks. I carry 100% of the day and I shoot weekly so if it doesn't work I trash it and find something that does. I have found bean counting to be the biggest threat, and am a big fan of niche parts manufacturers. Colt Defense sets the bar for affordable military grade carbines. My only criticism of Colt Defense is not adopting CHF Chrome Lined barrels. But if they did people would Fudd about the cost of an extra $200-300 dollar barrel that doesn't give you a great deal more lifespan of full auto use.. I really like FNs CHF barrels, but most of us do not need a CHF barrel. Personally I think it's better as an add on. But it would be nice if Colt Defense could raise the bar but they would need military contracts to maintain profits.
Chris is great, I have a copy of BLACK Rifle II and it'ssstill 100% relevant. Soon we willnneed a BRIII. I have also discussed a number of issues with Chris over the years on forums and had a great conversation with him via email. Chris' YouTube video where he discusses Colt Expanse and basically how it's crap: is this what you are referring to? It's important to understand per Colt the Expanse line is not a military grade product, with mostly different parts. The 1911 shop has suffered from the bankruptcy. I can't comment to the quality of the 1911s, but I will say Colt has some great proprietary tech they put into both the Defense and 1911 line. I would guess they need to adopt MIM to keep costs down. The most expensive production 1911s hitting $2000+ have MIM sadly. I personally hate MIM. Ihhave worked on older Colt 1911s, and they have zero MIM. I have read discussions on 1911 forums saying their mod line models are mostly forged components pre shop overhaul a few years ago. An example is the dual spring assembly used in the new 1911 which Colt adopted in their line, and now many others are following. Colt also has old mothballed tech. that has been released in newer products that was once determined to be une unnecessary from the perspective of the bean counters. Considering the prices of Colt 1911s it is impressive they had mostly non MIM. But things change and ultimately Colt is a business that needs profits to survive. The military is no longer using the 1911 for the most part, so it's now a consumer thing. Personally I carry a Springfield Custom 1911A1, and Walthers. I used 1911 in the Navy, M9, Sigs. I prefer the 1911A1. I also carried an XD for a while, I preferred it over a Glock. I still believe the XDm/s line is a better hammer than a Glock. I like the XD trigger, sights, and barrel better, also liked the early frames better. The ergonomics of the new XDs are still better than new Glocks, same as the older XDs and Glocks. I carry 100% of the day and I shoot weekly so if it doesn't work I trash it and find something that does. I have found bean counting to be the biggest threat, and am a big fan of niche parts manufacturers. Colt Defense sets the bar for affordable military grade carbines. My only criticism of Colt Defense is not adopting CHF Chrome Lined barrels. But if they did people would Fudd about the cost of an extra $200-300 dollar barrel that doesn't give you a great deal more lifespan of full auto use.. I really like FNs CHF barrels, but most of us do not need a CHF barrel. Personally I think it's better as an add on. But it would be nice if Colt Defense could raise the bar but they would need military contracts to maintain profits.
Chris said on his last Small Arms Solutions Live on 4/27/19 that he would not buy a current 6920. The parts were not made in house and were all sourced.
Chris said on his last Small Arms Solutions Live on 4/27/19 that he would not buy a current 6920. The parts were not made in house and were all sourced.
Who cares if the parts are in spec?
Also convos from inside the WHite House have been leaked on the regular but nobody seems to know what Colt is actually doing?
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It seems lately that one can’t engage in a conversation without a bunch of drive-by snark from other senior members. This comment isnt aimed at anyone in particular, just a general comment.
I'm part of your reference, I most certainly was not referring to you.
The whole Colt outsourcing parts thing, and the threads associated with it are getting repetitive to say the least.
My personal opinion is that Colt is worth the money, as are most entry level AR's below $1,000.00. If someone pays $500.00 for an AR, I certainly hope they understand they are getting a $500.00 AR and not a (insert name of your favorite 2000.00 AR here).
Again, speaking personally, I think there is a lot of 'confusion' as to bang for the buck in the brief range of $900ish to $1300ish dollar basic rifles. But, that doesn't mean I'm telling someone their whatever sucks.
I have called out, as much as I'm capable of calling out folks, some of the Colt fanboys about the 'Colt makes war horses, not show ponies' mantra as an excuse for crappy fit and finish.
As, an example: I thought it was humorous when a photographer commented in reference to one of my posts on the subject that he wasn't concerned about 'aesthetics.' Yet that same guy, in response to me posting a picture of my completed LaRue rifle, commented he was glad I was happy, but my upper and lower finish didn't match to his standards.
Like so much in this world, it depends on if you are buying or selling - I had commented regarding the flashing left on the tang of a Colt lower receiver, yet I was okay with a slight discrepancy in color match on my LaRue.
I'm part of your reference, I most certainly was not referring to you.
The whole Colt outsourcing parts thing, and the threads associated with it are getting repetitive to say the least.
My personal opinion is that Colt is worth the money, as are most entry level AR's below $1,000.00. If someone pays $500.00 for an AR, I certainly hope they understand they are getting a $500.00 AR and not a (insert name of your favorite 2000.00 AR here).
Again, speaking personally, I think there is a lot of 'confusion' as to bang for the buck in the brief range of $900ish to $1300ish dollar basic rifles. But, that doesn't mean I'm telling someone their whatever sucks.
I have called out, as much as I'm capable of calling out folks, some of the Colt fanboys about the 'Colt makes war horses, not show ponies' mantra as an excuse for crappy fit and finish.
As, an example: I thought it was humorous when a photographer commented in reference to one of my posts on the subject that he wasn't concerned about 'aesthetics.' Yet that same guy, in response to me posting a picture of my completed LaRue rifle, commented he was glad I was happy, but my upper and lower finish didn't match to his standards.
Like so much in this world, it depends on if you are buying or selling - I had commented regarding the flashing left on the tang of a Colt lower receiver, yet I was okay with a slight discrepancy in color match on my LaRue.
I appreciate that.
And yes, these threads get old, as they always end up with the back and forth. Usually the opinions are not quantified with any solid data and I was just trying to flesh that out.
I agree Re: the basic budget rifles. As an old car salesman once told me, “there’s an ass for EVERY seat”. Guns are no different, just depends on need and ones personal threshold for value...quality vs the price paid...in my opinion.
Sorry if I took y’alls comments wrong. I think my ovaries may have been acting up.
CajunCourier
04-28-19, 14:39
Chris said on his last Small Arms Solutions Live on 4/27/19 that he would not buy a current 6920. The parts were not made in house and were all sourced.
He also said that current production 6920s are probably still military-grade ARs, and seemed to be even more sure about that with the 6940 because some of it's parts require Colt to manufacture them. He said the 6920's quality is completely dependent on Colt's QC, so it's in the same boat as BCM and many other reputable and proven AR makers.
As it's been said before - the average entry-level buyer is going to examine the $1100 BCM and then notice the $500 PSA next to it and his wallet is going to make the decision. Which is fine for the weekend (or bi-monthly) shooter.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/717/476/b36.png
A. Colt has a lifetime warranty
B. Colt will fix your stuff
C. Most of you won’t be running your gun vert hard. The hashtag/ammunition ratio lately is disappointing
D. lol BCM
E. 99% of you will jack up your guns putting on dumb crap you don’t really need and will never get full use of
F. Maybe some of you really DO just need Anderson lowers and PSA uppers.
G. Chris Bartocci has not been employed by Colt for a good minute.
H. Most people now are making gay ass clones anyways that again don’t get shot
I. Today people were shooting guns and hitting things and didn’t bitch about it
J. Seriously, this thread. Seriously?
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/717/476/b36.png
A. Colt has a lifetime warranty
B. Colt will fix your stuff
C. Most of you won’t be running your gun vert hard. The hashtag/ammunition ratio lately is disappointing
D. lol BCM
E. 99% of you will jack up your guns putting on dumb crap you don’t really need and will never get full use of
F. Maybe some of you really DO just need Anderson lowers and PSA uppers.
G. Chris Bartocci has not been employed by Colt for a good minute.
H. Most people now are making gay ass clones anyways that again don’t get shot
I. Today people were shooting guns and hitting things and didn’t bitch about it
J. Seriously, this thread. Seriously?
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bII0J6huL._SS500_.jpg
SouthwestAviator
04-28-19, 23:07
IIRC, Chris said in the same video that "even Colt's barrels are coming from outside now". This is just more evidence of him having a bias and putting a spin on it. Colt has outsourced barrels for a long time, along with many other parts. It's nothing new, and it never led to problems. There is no evidence that Colts these days won't stand up to the same hard use that the 6920s got their reputation from being able to do.
wetidlerjr
04-29-19, 05:23
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/717/476/b36.png
A. Colt has a lifetime warranty
B. Colt will fix your stuff
C. Most of you won’t be running your gun vert hard. The hashtag/ammunition ratio lately is disappointing
D. lol BCM
E. 99% of you will jack up your guns putting on dumb crap you don’t really need and will never get full use of
F. Maybe some of you really DO just need Anderson lowers and PSA uppers.
G. Chris Bartocci has not been employed by Colt for a good minute.
H. Most people now are making gay ass clones anyways that again don’t get shot
I. Today people were shooting guns and hitting things and didn’t bitch about it
J. Seriously, this thread. Seriously?
Amen!
So to recap, we have a guy claiming he shoots 3-4 inch groups at 400 yards with an unmagnified red dot :rolleyes:, another guy evaluating milspec triggers at 25 yards and claiming his 25 yard “battlesight zero” is the same as a 200 yard zero :jester:, and oh yeah it turns out that Colts are still meeting TDP specs despite a lot hand-wringing.
This thread reeks of TOS...
So to recap, we have a guy claiming he shoots 3-4 inch groups at 400 yards with an unmagnified red dot :rolleyes:, another guy evaluating milspec triggers at 25 yards and claiming his 25 yard “battlesight zero” is the same as a 200 yard zero :jester:, and oh yeah it turns out that Colts are still meeting TDP specs despite a lot hand-wringing.
This thread reeks of TOS...
Pretty solid summary. I still recommend Colts for people looking for entry level rifles, especially Soldiers. Even though the prices seem to be creeping up again. Its hard to beat for value. Rifle is fine.
Thank you. Especially (J).
Joke’s on me though. I read every page and post of this train wreck. How many minutes of my life will I never get back? I WILL NOT open about another thread about Colt. I WILL NOT.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/717/476/b36.png
A. Colt has a lifetime warranty
B. Colt will fix your stuff
C. Most of you won’t be running your gun vert hard. The hashtag/ammunition ratio lately is disappointing
D. lol BCM
E. 99% of you will jack up your guns putting on dumb crap you don’t really need and will never get full use of
F. Maybe some of you really DO just need Anderson lowers and PSA uppers.
G. Chris Bartocci has not been employed by Colt for a good minute.
H. Most people now are making gay ass clones anyways that again don’t get shot
I. Today people were shooting guns and hitting things and didn’t bitch about it
J. Seriously, this thread. Seriously?
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Doc Safari
04-29-19, 09:01
There is no evidence that Colts these days won't stand up to the same hard use that the 6920s got their reputation from being able to do.
And in fact there is evidence they will. I reiterate the thread on TOS where Henderson Defense runs a gun range in Vegas and the Colts hold up admirably to what is a much harsher firing schedule than any civilian is likely to encounter in the real world.
And in fact there is evidence they will. I reiterate the thread on TOS where Henderson Defense runs a gun range in Vegas and the Colts hold up admirably to what is a much harsher firing schedule than any civilian is likely to encounter in the real world.
So do PSA's if you read the thread.
And, Doc, you little rascal, weren't you one of those who was worried in the Colt Outsourcing Everything thread?
Doc Safari
04-29-19, 11:11
So do PSA's if you read the thread.
And, Doc, you little rascal, weren't you one of those who was worried in the Colt Outsourcing Everything thread?
Not worried, just trying to see both sides of the issue. I can see if the Colt Expanse was sort of the way Colt was testing the waters to downgrade quality on everything, but I've come to believe that's not the case. I also debate if Chris Bartocci is getting good information or just sour grapes from former and current Colt employees. It's too easy to dismiss any of his knowledge not based on personal experience as "hearsay." Kind of like if you work for Coca-Cola and they cut back on your hours you could put out a rumor that there is bat urine in Coca-Cola or something.
So to recap, we have a guy claiming he shoots 3-4 inch groups at 400 yards with an unmagnified red dot :rolleyes:, another guy evaluating milspec triggers at 25 yards and claiming his 25 yard “battlesight zero” is the same as a 200 yard zero :jester:, and oh yeah it turns out that Colts are still meeting TDP specs despite a lot hand-wringing.
This thread reeks of TOS...
Don't forget the guy who claims the Springfield XD is the best handgun out there.
SouthwestAviator
04-29-19, 11:26
Not worried, just trying to see both sides of the issue. I can see if the Colt Expanse was sort of the way Colt was testing the waters to downgrade quality on everything, but I've come to believe that's not the case. I also debate if Chris Bartocci is getting good information or just sour grapes from former and current Colt employees. It's too easy to dismiss any of his knowledge not based on personal experience as "hearsay." Kind of like if you work for Coca-Cola and they cut back on your hours you could put out a rumor that there is bat urine in Coca-Cola or something.
But does the bat urine come from Coca Cola itself or is it outsourced? These are the important questions.
Seriously though, even Chris begrudgingly said that current 6920's are "probably" combat grade and reliable. It almost seemed to pain him to cede that. Right after he said he'd never buy a new Colt.
There's Colts from the olden days with Green Mountain barrels and other outsourced parts. I'm not sure why it matters now.
Doc Safari
04-29-19, 11:32
Colt does have a long and storied history of doing goofy shit. During the 1990's I swear I couldn't get a Colt without a rusted spring on it somewhere.
I bought a brand new 6720 in January that the assembler had kinked one of the bolt rings so I had to replace it right away. I replaced all three just because.
One more time: The experiences of Colt durability at the Vegas rental range close the book for me on Colt's quality. Yes, as 26 Inf pointed out they aren't the only quality AR, but we're not debating other brands either.
Bottom line: Buy a Colt. Be prepared for it to not be "perfect", but it will serve you well.
There's Colts from the olden days with Green Mountain barrels and other outsourced parts. I'm not sure why it matters now.
It doesn't matter. Someone well respected presented his opinion as fact and the less critical thinkers among us took it as gospel without much in the way of actual evidence. People have a poor perception of "outsourcing" because they don't really understand it and assume for some reason that all manufacturing is vertically integrated or something. It's the same with "lowest bidder", they conveniently leave out, "that can meet requirements."
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crusader377
04-29-19, 13:02
I think Colts are still very good rifles. True they might not have the best cosmetic fit and finish but they do have a very good reputation for reliability and have very good accuracy for a service grade rifle. Here are a few things to consider.
1) Colt still sells thousands of rifles per year to the U.S. Military and these rifles do need to meet TDP standards for the M4.
2) Colt has a strong foreign military sales record. Many of these rifle/carbine competitions Colt faced strong competitors.
3) Colt rifles and carbines are battle proven world-wide
4) The M4 is a popular rifle in U.S. military service and the bulk of M4s in the military are Colts.
5) Most civilian owners seem to like their Colts and have little or no problems with them.
Given these five truths, It stands to reason that Yes, Colt still produces a good rifle.
I think Colts are still very good rifles. True they might not have the best cosmetic fit and finish but they do have a very good reputation for reliability and have very good accuracy for a service grade rifle. Here are a few things to consider.
1) Colt still sells thousands of rifles per year to the U.S. Military and these rifles do need to meet TDP standards for the M4.
2) Colt has a strong foreign military sales record. Many of these rifle/carbine competitions Colt faced strong competitors.
3) Colt rifles and carbines are battle proven world-wide
4) The M4 is a popular rifle in U.S. military service and the bulk of M4s in the military are Colts.
5) Most civilian owners seem to like their Colts and have little or no problems with them.
Given these five truths, It stands to reason that Yes, Colt still produces a good rifle.
My work rifle is a Colt and a solid shooter. I own many AR’s, and most of the uppers I put together exclusively using Colt parts. I have two complete Colts rifle, both solid shooters. I will admit I have not purchased any Colt parts since 2017 when I built my last Colt SOCOM upper. The upper and the BCG had the “C” markings, and only the barrel had the CAGE code markings. So I cannot possibly say in 2019 if the quality has dropped off.
Even though I really like Colt, I have assembled different AR’s using quality parts made by Daniel Defense, Sionics, FNMI, BCM, Noveske, LMT, and Toolcraft. Besides the Colt rifles, my only factory made uppers are LMT and a HK MR556 I had rebuilt by IGF. My point in rambling is this: For the average range shooter, LEO, or a even high level shooter that runs his guns hard, if you own a rifle built with quality parts that are built by Colt or one of the fine makers that are as good/better than Colt, and service the firearms regularly, chances are they will last a very long time. But like anything mass produced, you might get a lemon here and there just like a Mercedes I bought that was at the dealer more than I drove it. I like Colt, and have not had one that failed me yet, especially the monolithic uppers or SOCOM barrels, and will continue to use them as long as I could afford them.
Glock9mm1990
04-30-19, 02:51
Cris also said in a Q/A video awhile back that he likes G2 RIP ammo in his .380. So I wouldn’t believe everything he says as gospel.
SouthwestAviator
04-30-19, 05:38
Cris also said in a Q/A video awhile back that he likes G2 RIP ammo in his .380. So I wouldn’t believe everything he says as gospel.
This. Chris also has said that straight pins for pinning the gas block are inferior to mil-spec taper pins... Apparently unaware that LMT uses straight pins for their gas blocks, a company he constantly dotes on as being top-notch and better than Colt in every way. He doesn't know everything and holds opinions that directly contradict each other.
It’s 2019 and we have people talking about the subjective quality of mil spec fire control groups in ARs. Mil spec FCGs are place holders for Geissele FCGs.
It’s 2019 and we have people talking about the subjective quality of mil spec fire control groups in ARs. Mil spec FCGs are place holders for Geissele FCGs.
Great, now you've started an argument about FCG's. :lol:
It’s 2019 and we have people talking about the subjective quality of mil spec fire control groups in ARs. Mil spec FCGs are place holders for INSERT FAVORITE BRAND HERE.
ChairborneRanger
04-30-19, 09:46
Colt Defense is still good to go. Colt also makes 1911s and has a outsourced Rifle line. The non Colt Defense Carbines are NOT military grade "Expanse." It's a consumer grade Carbine. Virtually every component is not truly military grade per Colt. It's a good budget range toy, but I would shell out the cash for an 6920 OEM if you are on a budget. The 1911s are like a crap shoot as far as fit and finish, but they are good quality and well made. The Colt 1911 .22s are made by another company. I honestly do not know how the Colt Competition rifles are, but I would go with Colt Defense for anything used as a defensive carbine.
I think that is generally good advice Core781. The Colt Defense line is still pretty good----the remainder, somewhat and sometimes, questionable.....
Bringing this back from near death.
I have a definitive answer:
57349
It says right on the box, GTG!
Seriously, very nice. Between this upper and a Colt complete lower I bought from Brownell's, I now have a complete Colt (except for the BCG and charging handle).
I’m tempted to buy one of those.
I have a 2016 or 2017 production 6920 Magpul furniture gun.
I had a squib on factory Wolf ammo last week. The bullet landed 2-3” down the bore and stopped. I had a very hard time getting it out. I broke wood dowels. I tried a brass rod and a wood block/hammer. Still could get it out and actually broke the brass rod. So I switched to steel, sure i would end up damaging the barrel and ending up having to replace it. The steel rode the barrel down til the bullet pushed out.
I cleaned the gun and took it to the range. 3” groups with an Aimpoint Comp M3 2 MOA for at 250 yards with match ammo.
I guess Colt sucks.
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Hammered_Pair
05-19-19, 13:07
In this day and age of just as good as, save the money get a "Poverty Pony" with the RF85 and never clean again. ;-)
davidjinks
05-19-19, 14:40
I love your posts.
I second Doc’s response.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/717/476/b36.png
A. Colt has a lifetime warranty
B. Colt will fix your stuff
C. Most of you won’t be running your gun vert hard. The hashtag/ammunition ratio lately is disappointing
D. lol BCM
E. 99% of you will jack up your guns putting on dumb crap you don’t really need and will never get full use of
F. Maybe some of you really DO just need Anderson lowers and PSA uppers.
G. Chris Bartocci has not been employed by Colt for a good minute.
H. Most people now are making gay ass clones anyways that again don’t get shot
I. Today people were shooting guns and hitting things and didn’t bitch about it
J. Seriously, this thread. Seriously?
This. Chris also has said that straight pins for pinning the gas block are inferior to mil-spec taper pins... Apparently unaware that LMT uses straight pins for their gas blocks, a company he constantly dotes on as being top-notch and better than Colt in every way. He doesn't know everything and holds opinions that directly contradict each other.
Taper pins are superior.
I don't think Chris said LMT is superior to Colt in every possible category of build quality.
SouthwestAviator
05-19-19, 17:43
Taper pins are superior.
I don't think Chris said LMT is superior to Colt in every possible category of build quality.
He says that LMT is better than Colt in overall quality. The fact that LMT uses straight pins, a carbine buffer, a semi auto carrier, and doesn't parkerize under the FSB is enough to make them inferior to Colt overall. Each of those things adding up together comes across as serious corner cutting. There are too many manufacturers building rifles right (including Colt) to bother paying more for an LMT that uses inferior parts and assembly processes.
He says that LMT is better than Colt in overall quality. The fact that LMT uses straight pins, a carbine buffer, a semi auto carrier, and doesn't parkerize under the FSB is enough to make them inferior to Colt overall. Each of those things adding up together comes across as serious corner cutting. There are too many manufacturers building rifles right (including Colt) to bother paying more for an LMT that uses inferior parts and assembly processes.
I've read about LMT's lack of parkerizing under the FSB before.
Are these possibilities?
1) Does assembling non-parkerized parts allow for tighter tolerances and therefore a tighter, more sealed gas system?
2) Parkerizing as a unit, after assembly gives you the same darkness/tint of parkerization on all parts, plus you aren't risking scratching the barrel sliding the FSB over the parkerized finish.
3) It seems to me that if you parkerize the barrel, then slip on the FSB, then drill for the pins, you are putting the pins into an unparkerized surface. Why aren't we worried about that?
4) With this in mind:
When the steel is immersed in the phosphating solution, a light acid pickling takes place and the acid concentration is reduced at the liquid-metal interface. It is here, at this surface, that the steel from the gun is dissolved, hydrogen is released, and a phosphate coating is deposited onto the steel. The fact that these coatings are formed in place at the surface of the steel, incorporating metal ions dissolved from the surface itself, makes them “conversion” coatings which are integrally bonded to the metal. Phosphate coatings differ from electro-deposited coatings which are “additive” coatings, overlaid on the metal.
While the chamber and bores of rifles and handguns should be protected from the Parkerizing action, other operating parts can be coated with no worry about dimensional change. Any excess, built-up coating is essentially removed in the very early stages of use, after reassembly, and the parts return to their original dimensions. https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/Inst-482%20Parkerizing.pdf
Manganese phosphating ( and iron phosphating coatings are usually the thickest electrochemical conversion coatings, being thicker than electrochemical conversion coatings such as zinc phosphating and bluing.
Parkerizing will add 0.001" (lightest) to nearly 0.004" (heaviest) depending on the process and the time the phosphate is allowed to grow. http://www.homegunsmith.com/archive/T5811.html
The Brownell's Manganese Parkerizing Solution meets standard mil-spec MILLSTD-171 for small arms finishing.
4) Continued: If there is no movement/working to remove excess, built-up coating if the FSB is pinned in place before parkerizing. Does this mean that parkerizing after assembly would in essence seal the cracks due to built up coating in surface slip fit union?
Based on all that I've read, I'm not so sure that it is correct to call out that LMT uses inferior parts and assembly processes. Kind of like KAC doesn't HPT bolts because of their belief that it shortens bolt life.
BTW - thanks for the comment, it caused me to add a little to my knowledge base.
3)
In my looking around I did find this, somewhat humorous explanation of why parkerizing under the FSB is important:
The real distinction is this:
When SHTF, and you have to reach for those 100 loaded mags to ward off human-wave attacks, the mob will inspect your weapon to see if it has parkerizing under the front sight base.
If they see the park there, they'll say "Hmmmm . . . this guy's serious . . . he looks like a real arfcom survivalist . . . bet he even has expensive TAP ammo in every one of those mags . . . anybody that goes Tier One and spends three grand on SHTF ammo is too much for us. He'll mow us down like pot plants at harvest time . . . no siree, we're going to a different neighborhood, we are." And they'll look at you with a new respect in their eyes as they head toward easier pickings,
But if the mob sees no park under the base, they'll look at you like a wolf-pack looks at a baby elk. They'll say "This chump has a Bushmaster or other inferior rifle. He's not serious, he's a poser. I'll bet that's only XM193 in all those mags, too. He's too cheap to have a real gun and real ammo. We'll eat him for breakfast." And they'll proceed to wreak mayhem on you and yours. (TOS)
Doc Safari
05-20-19, 06:41
If your barrel is parked under the FSB it just means the enemy is more likely to shoot you if they capture you.
In my looking around I did find this, somewhat humorous explanation of why parkerizing under the FSB is important:
The real distinction is this:
When SHTF, and you have to reach for those 100 loaded mags to ward off human-wave attacks, the mob will inspect your weapon to see if it has parkerizing under the front sight base.
If they see the park there, they'll say "Hmmmm . . . this guy's serious . . . he looks like a real arfcom survivalist . . . bet he even has expensive TAP ammo in every one of those mags . . . anybody that goes Tier One and spends three grand on SHTF ammo is too much for us. He'll mow us down like pot plants at harvest time . . . no siree, we're going to a different neighborhood, we are." And they'll look at you with a new respect in their eyes as they head toward easier pickings,
But if the mob sees no park under the base, they'll look at you like a wolf-pack looks at a baby elk. They'll say "This chump has a Bushmaster or other inferior rifle. He's not serious, he's a poser. I'll bet that's only XM193 in all those mags, too. He's too cheap to have a real gun and real ammo. We'll eat him for breakfast." And they'll proceed to wreak mayhem on you and yours. (TOS)
Uni-Vibe's rhetoric is deathless.
Think about it this way.
What does this guy "Chris Bartocci" want?
He wants you to watch his videos, buy his books, etc.
Drama, intrigue, secrets are all the way to do that.
Five_Point_Five_Six
05-20-19, 08:40
I find Bartaloochee's videos on retro stuff interesting, but anytime he brings up current Colt products he just seems salty af.
I find Bartaloochee's videos on retro stuff interesting, but anytime he brings up current Colt products he just seems salty af.
He has an hour long video with a few heaps of:
57375
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpz8KTqoOhk
"Never meet your heroes, because they're sure to disappoint you."
SouthwestAviator
05-20-19, 12:14
Not parkerizing under the FSB isn’t a deal breaker to me by itself. But that combined with the straight pinned gas block, semi auto carrier and carbine buffer adds up to a rifle I consider inferior to brands that build rifles to the proper spec like Colt and BCM’s fixed FSB models.
I don’t buy the thing about them not parkerizing under the FSB to get a tighter gas seal. Military M16s and M4s have had parkerizing under there for decades with no problems of that nature. Its the proper way to do things.
I have several rifles with straight pins and spiral pins. I died because of it.
Edit: I agree that carbine buffers and semi carriers are lame.
Not parkerizing under the FSB isn’t a deal breaker to me by itself. But that combined with the straight pinned gas block, semi auto carrier and carbine buffer adds up to a rifle I consider inferior to brands that build rifles to the proper spec like Colt and BCM’s fixed FSB models.
All things this forum would deem 'hobby grade garbage', but I suppose it depends whose name is on the side.
It's always fun to see what is accepted from certain companies while being completely rejected from others.
I'll have to say that after buying my 6920-Trooper, I have really come to enjoy it and Colt in general.
I just bought a 6933 upper from Brownells (no-BCG/CH) for $399 with the 10% off coupon to give a pistol lower I have an upper.
Upper came in the white & blue Colt box, was well assembled with the CAGE code on the upper and barrel - no "C" on the upper, but dry lube inside the upper and the exterior of the whole setup was lubed as well.
No rush to get it together (the pistol lower is mostly to take my SBR upper out of state easily if I want), but for $400 I think it's a very nice deal. Cheaper than a non-BFH BCM 11.5" for a simple, basic SBR length upper.
chuck jones
06-15-19, 00:16
Colts just run. My cousin and I have 1.5 year old 6920s. Both are more accurate than they should be and have zero problems. All we changed was the triggers. The barrels aren't even floated.
Picked up a Colt 11.5” FBI heavy barrel. I was getting 1.5 MOA with a Geissele trigger and an Aimpoint PRO with a pronounced stigmatism in my right eye. Ammo was just Fed xm193 and Fiocchi .223. I think with a magnified optic it is close to 1MOA and maybe under with target ammo.
Picked up a Colt 11.5” FBI heavy barrel. I was getting 1.5 MOA with a Geissele trigger and an Aimpoint PRO with a pronounced stigmatism in my right eye. Ammo was just Fed xm193 and Fiocchi .223. I think with a magnified optic it is close to 1MOA and maybe under with target ammo.
I have a Colt 10.3" barrel in an SBR and for the most part haven't gotten particularly good accuracy with it when compared to some of my other guns.
It's a really cool little SMG-sized carbine as far as handling goes, and function has been great for the 1205 rds through it so far, but I've just been somewhat underwhelmed by the groups I've been getting.
I think Colt makes quality firearms and their 6720/6920/6933 are great examples.
But, they don’t make incremental improvements like QD receiver plates, better furniture, rails, etc. on their base model like DD, BCM, and others. But they do make models without furniture and shaved FSB too so who cares?
I’ll tell you what worries me about Colt. They seem to be slow to change and I’m concerned that with their having no submissions for the Army’s new rifle/LMG program that they just aren’t going to be around long term. But that’s kind of the story with Colt. Seems to be good / great (not referring to just AR’s here) products but just decision skills that make you scratch your head... like why not pull the trigger on the moves to TX or FL? Why not put something together for the new solicitations?
That said I can’t diminish their reputation, quality, and stuff such as furniture can be swapped.
That’s my view on Colt.
God Bless,
Brandon
I just got a Cage coded upper from them, and except for the “C” stamp, looks like every other Colt I own. I will say their quality is still good, but as others have said, they have to make better innovations and R&D for not only to their Military customers, but their LE and commercial base. An example of this is H&K. They are in as much dire straights as Colt, and that is because Colt and H&K have neglected their commercial base. Are you telling me H&K can’t add a chrome lined barrel to their MR556?!? Please
They actually did something innovative and priced well. I bought the new Colt CM in 6.5 and my brother bought it in 308. 18 inch barrel with 17 inch Mlok rail. Built by Colt defense and solid. Gassed nicely for a can. $1,400 in my hands. Mine shot sub Moa with 1-8 scope and my brother's 308 shot Moa with an ACOG.
I am thrilled with it. Colt still GTG.
PB
They actually did something innovative and priced well. I bought the new Colt CM in 6.5 and my brother bought it in 308. 18 inch barrel with 17 inch Mlok rail. Built by Colt defense and solid. Gassed nicely for a can. $1,400 in my hands. Mine shot sub Moa with 1-8 scope and my brother's 308 shot Moa with an ACOG.
I am thrilled with it. Colt still GTG.
PB
I am sorely tempted by the 308 version myself. It really is a great price on what I’ve always heard is a great platform. I think the initial higher pricing is why it didn’t take off. Had they released it at a lower price, they could have raised it slowly and gone after the LMT market.
I just got a Cage coded upper from them, and except for the “C” stamp, looks like every other Colt I own. I will say their quality is still good, but as others have said, they have to make better innovations and R&D for not only to their Military customers, but their LE and commercial base. An example of this is H&K. They are in as much dire straights as Colt, and that is because Colt and H&K have neglected their commercial base. Are you telling me H&K can’t add a chrome lined barrel to their MR556?!? Please
COLT hasn't neglected anyone. They know their market well. Their market is FMS. Anything leftover trickles down to the commercial market. The modular carbine is great platform. I'm sure the current offering is a limited run and will evaporate soon enough. They're a bargain at $1500.
They actually did something innovative and priced well. I bought the new Colt CM in 6.5 and my brother bought it in 308. 18 inch barrel with 17 inch Mlok rail. Built by Colt defense and solid. Gassed nicely for a can. $1,400 in my hands. Mine shot sub Moa with 1-8 scope and my brother's 308 shot Moa with an ACOG.
I am thrilled with it. Colt still GTG.
PB
That is for the 6.5 Creedmore, correct? I can't find one in .308 with an 18" barrel.
That is for the 6.5 Creedmore, correct? I can't find one in .308 with an 18" barrel.
Yes, 6.5 is 18" barrel, 308 16" barrel.
COLT hasn't neglected anyone. They know their market well. Their market is FMS. Anything leftover trickles down to the commercial market. The modular carbine is great platform. I'm sure the current offering is a limited run and will evaporate soon enough. They're a bargain at $1500.
No one is saying Colt quality has went down; what I said is they neglected their LE and commercial base. I am a huge Colt fan, especially their SOCOM barrels. Most of my rifles and uppers are Colt, to include a very rare 6941 monolithic upper. My 6945 on my SBR lower runs like a sewing machine.
Colt Defense has offered very gimmicky items instead of bring more innovative products to their customers. Colt Canada has become their de facto R&D, and some of their offerings to include their MRR uppers would be a hit in both the U.S. LE and commercial market. I understand because of the retarded laws we cannot get anything Imported from Colt Canada/Diemaco, but Colt Defense can manufacture the MRR upper here in the U.S. without issues.
I understand because of the retarded laws we cannot get anything Imported from Colt Canada/Diemaco, but Colt Defense can manufacture the MRR upper here in the U.S. without issues.
Except for that whole LMT MRP patent thing... They could make it here, just have to pay a royalty to Carl Lewis for each one.
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I'm also a new CM762-16S owner. The "fit and finish" on my particular rifle is very good. The first time out, under less than perfect conditions, it produced several 1 to 1.25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with Federal Gold Medal 168 SMKs. I'm extremely happy with the rifle.
That is for the 6.5 Creedmore, correct? I can't find one in .308 with an 18" barrel.
Correct, I would buy another 308 if they made a SS 20 inches. Maybe they will toss out a run. I wish the 6.5 was 20 inches, but whatever. But , I loaded a mag and got after some steal at 35 yards like a carbine and it felt good. Something I cant really do with my LMT beast. Pretty cool.
PB
No one is saying Colt quality has went down; what I said is they neglected their LE and commercial base. I am a huge Colt fan, especially their SOCOM barrels. Most of my rifles and uppers are Colt, to include a very rare 6941 monolithic upper. My 6945 on my SBR lower runs like a sewing machine.
Colt Defense has offered very gimmicky items instead of bring more innovative products to their customers. Colt Canada has become their de facto R&D, and some of their offerings to include their MRR uppers would be a hit in both the U.S. LE and commercial market. I understand because of the retarded laws we cannot get anything Imported from Colt Canada/Diemaco, but Colt Defense can manufacture the MRR upper here in the U.S. without issues.
Not a chance in hell. Like I said, COLT's market focus is and always has been FMS. You're not the first and won't be the last to prophetically proclaim that you know what market COLT is neglecting and what it should do to make money. If you're so certain of commercial viability of an MRR upper, I'm sure you could talk COLT into making you 10,000 on a prepaid PO. You'd own the market and would spend the next 20 years trying to dump those things for cost.
Not a chance in hell. Like I said, COLT's market focus is and always has been FMS. You're not the first and won't be the last to prophetically proclaim that you know what market COLT is neglecting and what it should do to make money. If you're so certain of commercial viability of an MRR upper, I'm sure you could talk COLT into making you 10,000 on a prepaid PO. You'd own the market and would spend the next 20 years trying to dump those things for cost.
Sure, why not 20,000 units? I am sure I have a few million laying around.
If foreign military sales were so big and lucrative, why is Colt in financial problems? I have been using Colt products professionally for 21 years, and they always work for me. Not the prettiest cosmetically, but who cares? As long as they shoot everytime I pull the trigger I am happy. However, I think you are missing the point in what I am saying. If Colt doesn’t come out with anything innovative or cater to other customer bases, then even FMS won’t save them.
When did BCM become “LOL BCM”?
Also, when did Colt start coming with lifetime warranties?
When I bought my LOL BCM Colt still had a one year warranty.
God Bless,
Brandon
When did BCM become “LOL BCM”?
Also, when did Colt start coming with lifetime warranties?
When I bought my LOL BCM Colt still had a one year warranty.
God Bless,
Brandon
I like my BCM rifles. Colts too. No LOL’s in my humble opinion.
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