View Full Version : "critical flaw-" in FN pistol
Apparently, under a few specific - albeit unlikely - conditions, some FN pistols will discharge:
"...more than three years later, the Firearms Training Unit would discover an issue with the FNS 9 pistols that are the standard sidearm for every DPS trooper that causes them to fire unexpectedly – or not fire at all.
Shortly after the flaw was discovered, DPS began hurriedly replacing the roughly 1,500 FNS pistols it purchased over four years beginning in the 2015 fiscal year, when it ditched the SIG Sauer pistols that all troopers carried in the name of cost savings."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=20MaN_eD4w8
More intel:
https://www.azmirror.com/2019/04/22/after-discovering-critical-flaw-in-gun-dps-quietly-replacing-guns-issued-to-all-troopers/?fbclid=IwAR23pUOVbCzjFED61hhP2svg172tIB-aJnfjZeJIegyBsw53WD7kKgJfKyY
First flaw: Its an FN.
I’d rather they just crank out Hi Powers like Colt does 1911s.
Not good at all.
I thought the who Sig The P320 freak out was mostly a big nothing burger. This seems like legit bad mojo.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
04-24-19, 14:41
Holy moly. That's why we don't buy crap guns kiddos.
#glockmasterrace
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Holy moly. That's why we don't buy crap guns kiddos.
I didn't tend to put FN in the crap category.
I didn't tend to put FN in the crap category.Exactly what I was thinking. May not be a popular option but never considered them of low quality
I heard about this a few weeks ago, never been interested in FN so didn't bother looking it up.
Any fatal flaws in Gen 3 Glock 21’s and 30’s? None? Whew, that was a close one. I was worried there for a minute.
MountainRaven
04-24-19, 15:43
The real news here is that the FNS is going out of production.
:jester:
dwhitehorne
04-24-19, 16:19
I thought this was discovered 2 years ago and part of the reasons why Baltimore, MD and Columbia,SC ditched the FNS. David
The real news here is that the FNS is going out of production.
:jester:
Yeah, wasn’t the 509 supposed to replace the FNS? I don’t really follow FN handguns, so I kind of forgot the FNS was around.
Did anyone actually watch the video?
The FN handgun will NOT FIRE if the slide is out of battery. That isn't a design flaw. If it DID fire out of battery THAT would be a design flaw. You don't want an out of battery discharge.
If you are concerned that your handgun may not fire because the slide is out of battery because it is pressed against an attacker during a struggle you may want to investigate duty revolvers.
Also I just grabbed my Gen 3 Glock 19 and pressed the slide back just enough to tilt the barrel and guess what? You pull the trigger and you GET NOTHING. Of course that is a good thing.
Seriously, this is the most retarded thing I've heard coming out of a PD.
I watched the video.
Seems to me the concern was things that happen under specific circumstances after the pistol goes back into battery.
I liked the Loaded Laser Straight Safe acronym.
We had one agency get the FNS right after they came out. They sent student officers to us with new FNS pistols that we were told 'needed to be fired 150 to 200 rounds to break-in'. Guess what - they were right.
After a couple of issues we became believers, when the agency sent pistols that hadn't been 'broken in' we'd take them and fire mags through them while the student officers were in the first morning range lecture. You should have seen the crap we hosed out of those pistols with gun scrubber after firing the 'break-in' rounds.
IIRC, I think they had them right at a year before they got rid of them.
Deleted due to lack of relevance.
Did anyone actually watch the video?
The FN handgun will NOT FIRE if the slide is out of battery. That isn't a design flaw. If it DID fire out of battery THAT would be a design flaw. You don't want an out of battery discharge.
If you are concerned that your handgun may not fire because the slide is out of battery because it is pressed against an attacker during a struggle you may want to investigate duty revolvers.
Also I just grabbed my Gen 3 Glock 19 and pressed the slide back just enough to tilt the barrel and guess what? You pull the trigger and you GET NOTHING. Of course that is a good thing.
Seriously, this is the most retarded thing I've heard coming out of a PD.
My takeaway is that if i push against an attacker and it doesnt fire, just pull back.
Or if you decide not to shoot, rack the slide, which you have to do because of dead trigger anyway?
The issue is after you try and fire it out of battery something happens with the striker system and it will fire sometime later if bumped right.
Ive talked with several firearms instructors with AZDPS and they have all been able to replicate this issue.
I didn't tend to put FN in the crap category.
Indeed....
Well, everyone knows anything NOT a Glock is or will be crap, #glockmasterrace and all that...
:rolleyes: :laugh:
To be serious though, IIRC the FNS has had issues since day 1, and ALL related to trigger stuff. I believe the original issue was if you did something or other "just so" (another of those "this will never happen IRL" things, but was easily replicated) the trigger would lock up, and you'd be unable to fire the gun until doing some sort of remedial shenanigans.
The "failure to reset trigger after attempting to fire a shot OOB" simply seems like a totally predictable evolution of the original problem.
Shame... I kinda liked that gun.
I've owned an FNP-45 since they first hit the market and it's been a fine weapon. I have a variety of modern pistols, including the new Sig Sauer P320/M17, and I still like having a handgun with a hammer. Just old fashioned I guess. For the record, I've had a Glock 17 since 1994 and it has never failed me yet, so the hammer is not a requirement.
I watched the video.
Seems to me the concern was things that happen under specific circumstances after the pistol goes back into battery.
I liked the Loaded Laser Straight Safe acronym.
Ok, if you press the slide out of battery AND pull the trigger and it doesn't fire. Any shooter that has any business actually carrying a firearm should at that point expect ANYTHING can happen. You just pulled the trigger on a striker fired weapon and it didn't go bang.
This isn't a stupid design feature like a magazine disconnect. This is a design feature that prevents out of battery discharges. There isn't a handgun in the world specifically designed to do a contact shot with the slide OUT OF BATTERY. The fact that LEOs and CCW people must consider tactics like "contact shots" are just the sad nature of the game.
This is no different than if I get my hand on your gun and force the slide back one inch. The fact that you now can't shoot me isn't a defect of the firearm but the nature of things and shit that can happen. I don't know what magic weapon system AZ intends to purchase that will.
1. Safely fire with the slide out of battery.
2. Completely prevent a discharge AFTER the trigger has been pulled but a round hasn't been fired.
They really are going to have to go back to revolvers because my G19 did the same damn thing every time. Thankfully.
While we are at it, I fcking HATE the Loaded, Laser, Straight, Safe idiocy. If you honestly cannot remember the Four Rules of Basic Gun Safety as presented by Cooper, you have no business carrying a gun or being a LEO. I knew, understood and could quote them when I was 10 years old.
If you have to dumb shit down that damn much then we shouldn't have police officers at all. The whole "out of battery" safety concern is just fcking mystifying. It should be covered under tactics, specifically as a caveat to concepts like contact shots.
Just instruct people that IF YOU HAVE TO fire a weapon pressed against an attacker...
1. There is a strong possibility that your weapon won't fire IF the slide goes out of battery so you will need a contingency plan.
2. If you pulled the trigger on your weapon and it did not fire because the slide was out of battery there is a strong probability that the weapon could inadvertently discharge AT ANY TIME because you have pulled the trigger. You will have to treat the firearm with proper caution as a result until you can take remedial action.
There DONE.
Covers just about any weapon system including 1911s. Know those few things and you are good to go and we aren't out there blaming SERPA's on the fact that we shot ourselves in the leg because we were unable to keep our fingers OFF of the damn trigger during the draw.
And on a final note, none of the above was directed at you specifically. This kind of stupid shit just pisses me the F off because it is so preventable and by blaming the weapon we make LEOs dumber than they need to be. They really need to understand how weapons work and why they can fail. Otherwise we might as well go ahead and issue safety bullets to every officer to prevent unintended discharges.
My takeaway is that if i push against an attacker and it doesnt fire, just pull back.
Or if you decide not to shoot, rack the slide, which you have to do because of dead trigger anyway?
Pretty much.
The issue is after you try and fire it out of battery something happens with the striker system and it will fire sometime later if bumped right.
Ive talked with several firearms instructors with AZDPS and they have all been able to replicate this issue.
And I bet you can replicate it on virtually any striker fired semi auto. Again, you've pulled the trigger, the firearm didn't fire because the slide was out of battery, you shouldn't consider any firearm safe from a follow up discharge.
While obviously not good, why didn't FN just fix the problem and move on? Just about nothing is flawless at first.
I've owned an FNP-45 since they first hit the market and it's been a fine weapon. I have a variety of modern pistols, including the new Sig Sauer P320/M17, and I still like having a handgun with a hammer. Just old fashioned I guess. For the record, I've had a Glock 17 since 1994 and it has never failed me yet, so the hammer is not a requirement.
Honestly, Glocks, HKP7s and my HK VP70 are the only striker fired weapons I own.
I can say that brand new FN M4a1’s come out of the box with some sort of crazy sticky grease. Its on everything, including the buttstocks.
This was more like chunks of spray on finish worn of moving parts.
Every gun manufacturer has a few poopers, remember the Colt All American 2000 9mm? That’s just one example.
Ok, if you press the slide out of battery AND pull the trigger and it doesn't fire. Any shooter that has any business actually carrying a firearm should at that point expect ANYTHING can happen. You just pulled the trigger on a striker fired weapon and it didn't go bang.
This isn't a stupid design feature like a magazine disconnect. This is a design feature that prevents out of battery discharges. There isn't a handgun in the world specifically designed to do a contact shot with the slide OUT OF BATTERY. The fact that LEOs and CCW people must consider tactics like "contact shots" are just the sad nature of the game.
This is no different than if I get my hand on your gun and force the slide back one inch. The fact that you now can't shoot me isn't a defect of the firearm but the nature of things and shit that can happen. I don't know what magic weapon system AZ intends to purchase that will.
1. Safely fire with the slide out of battery.
2. Completely prevent a discharge AFTER the trigger has been pulled but a round hasn't been fired.
They really are going to have to go back to revolvers because my G19 did the same damn thing every time. Thankfully.
While we are at it, I fcking HATE the Loaded, Laser, Straight, Safe idiocy. If you honestly cannot remember the Four Rules of Basic Gun Safety as presented by Cooper, you have no business carrying a gun or being a LEO. I knew, understood and could quote them when I was 10 years old.
If you have to dumb shit down that damn much then we shouldn't have police officers at all. The whole "out of battery" safety concern is just fcking mystifying. It should be covered under tactics, specifically as a caveat to concepts like contact shots.
Just instruct people that IF YOU HAVE TO fire a weapon pressed against an attacker...
1. There is a strong possibility that your weapon won't fire IF the slide goes out of battery so you will need a contingency plan.
2. If you pulled the trigger on your weapon and it did not fire because the slide was out of battery there is a strong probability that the weapon could inadvertently discharge AT ANY TIME because you have pulled the trigger. You will have to treat the firearm with proper caution as a result until you can take remedial action.
There DONE.
Covers just about any weapon system including 1911s. Know those few things and you are good to go and we aren't out there blaming SERPA's on the fact that we shot ourselves in the leg because we were unable to keep our fingers OFF of the damn trigger during the draw.
And on a final note, none of the above was directed at you specifically. This kind of stupid shit just pisses me the F off because it is so preventable and by blaming the weapon we make LEOs dumber than they need to be. They really need to understand how weapons work and why they can fail. Otherwise we might as well go ahead and issue safety bullets to every officer to prevent unintended discharges.
Triggered on that video, huh? I honestly cant understand why.
I guess I've done armorer service on several thousand pistols, majority Glock, S&W, and SIG, striker and DA/SA. Part of safety and function after reassembly is ensuring the disconnector is functional going back into battery with the trigger depressed. Firing on going back into battery is not a feature.
I just checked every center fire pistol I own, 19 of them. On all of them if you get them far enough out of battery to disconnect and keep the trigger pressed as you release back into battery, the sear/cruciform retains the striker/hammer.
I do have a CZ85 that seems to let the slide go back pretty far before it disconnects, but it's sear also retained the hammer as it went back into battery.
I'm pretty sure the disconnector on a Commander I was carrying saved me one night. I was in plainclothes (working) and chased a guy into and through a trailer. Ended up on top of him in a bedroom as he reached for a chipping hammer. He had a bruise and scrape against his nose right below his eye orbit where I had shoved the Commander. Lord knows where my finger was. We were so far out of bounds playing cowboy and Indians on that little adventure that if that pistol had fired I'd probably still be in jail. Lessons learned: never chase dope, and never do a favor for an out of state officer, who you don't know, based on a phone call. Thank the Lord I survived that one to grow up a little and not be such a hot dog.
eightmillimeter
04-25-19, 01:23
It seems like 1 more pound of trigger return spring would be the end of it
Triggered on that video, huh? I honestly cant understand why.
I guess I've done armorer service on several thousand pistols, majority Glock, S&W, and SIG, striker and DA/SA. Part of safety and function after reassembly is ensuring the disconnector is functional going back into battery with the trigger depressed. Firing on going back into battery is not a feature.
I just checked every center fire pistol I own, 19 of them. On all of them if you get them far enough out of battery to disconnect and keep the trigger pressed as you release back into battery, the sear/cruciform retains the striker/hammer.
I do have a CZ85 that seems to let the slide go back pretty far before it disconnects, but it's sear also retained the hammer as it went back into battery.
I'm pretty sure the disconnector on a Commander I was carrying saved me one night. I was in plainclothes (working) and chased a guy into and through a trailer. Ended up on top of him in a bedroom as he reached for a chipping hammer. He had a bruise and scrape against his nose right below his eye orbit where I had shoved the Commander. Lord knows where my finger was. We were so far out of bounds playing cowboy and Indians on that little adventure that if that pistol had fired I'd probably still be in jail. Lessons learned: never chase dope, and never do a favor for an out of state officer, who you don't know, based on a phone call. Thank the Lord I survived that one to grow up a little and not be such a hot dog.
I've just always been taught not to depend on safeties and safety features so I guess I'm old school.
This was more like chunks of spray on finish worn of moving parts.
I see. I miss-understood and thought you meant they were super gooped up.
Did anyone actually watch the video?
The FN handgun will NOT FIRE if the slide is out of battery. That isn't a design flaw. If it DID fire out of battery THAT would be a design flaw. You don't want an out of battery discharge.
If you are concerned that your handgun may not fire because the slide is out of battery because it is pressed against an attacker during a struggle you may want to investigate duty revolvers.
Also I just grabbed my Gen 3 Glock 19 and pressed the slide back just enough to tilt the barrel and guess what? You pull the trigger and you GET NOTHING. Of course that is a good thing.
Seriously, this is the most retarded thing I've heard coming out of a PD.
Maybe I got something different out of the video. It seems the caution is if the trigger is pulled during an out of battery situation, when the slide goes back into battery a bump / jar / movement / striking with a plastic faced hammer will cause the gun to discharge.
I've just always been taught not to depend on safeties and safety features so I guess I'm old school.
That is obviously a good idea, but once a mechanical device shows it isn't working then replacement is a good idea.
I have no idea if those are unloaded, preloaded(Glock), or fully loaded(XD) striker systems, but I don't recall seeing anything else not fully resetting upon locking back up. Considering that and if the trigger bar/sear is able to work on the striker out of battery would seem to be setting up the real possibility of firing at some point when bumped as the components get some wear on them. While paying attention to the muzzle should avoid directly shooting someone the chance of sitting down too hard and getting a bang isn't going to go over real well either.
Maybe I got something different out of the video. It seems the caution is if the trigger is pulled during an out of battery situation, when the slide goes back into battery a bump / jar / movement / striking with a plastic faced hammer will cause the gun to discharge.
That's what I saw.
Maybe I got something different out of the video. It seems the caution is if the trigger is pulled during an out of battery situation, when the slide goes back into battery a bump / jar / movement / striking with a plastic faced hammer will cause the gun to discharge.
This is the correct conclusion.
It is not merely a "the gun won't fire when OOB", it is a "IF you attempt to fire when OOB, THEN the trigger/magic internal shooty mechanisms may not reset correctly RESULTING in an unexpected and unwanted "bang" if you so much as sneeze with the gun in hand, WITHOUT pulling the trigger a second time."
There is a comparison picture in the video between the two trigger reset positions for those that watched the video thoroughly...
It's not a matter of "just rack the slide" etc/so forth, because ANY movement or action with the gun after it has activated this condition can/will cause it to fire unexpectedly.
IMHO, this is something that should warrant the recall/refund/substitute replacement of ALL FNS pistols on the market immediately. In a situation like that, who is going to check their gun to see if the trigger hasn't reset correctly? More importantly, in a fight like that, are you even going to notice that you tried to take a contact shot and it failed *specifically* because the gun was out of battery? And then...what...ask for a time-out mid fight so you can examine the gun? Nah, you're just going to keep fighting til it's over, which means that next round is going to go off randomly at some undetermined time whenever the gun moves or gets bumped next (or if you assume a standard misfire and default to T/R/B remedial action), WITHOUT you pulling the trigger, which means it's going anywhere....maybe even into you.
No thanks.
Maybe I got something different out of the video. It seems the caution is if the trigger is pulled during an out of battery situation, when the slide goes back into battery a bump / jar / movement / striking with a plastic faced hammer will cause the gun to discharge.
I got that, but honestly, I would kind of expect that possibility from a gun where the trigger HAS BEEN PULLED.
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