View Full Version : H322 and 77 grain Sierra TMKs.
I got my best results yet from 77 grain TMKs on Sunday. Although the SD isn’t that thrilling, the load shot ¾ MOA, and had great velocity with no pressure signs. I even shot them in my Wylde chamber that doesn’t play well with hot ammo.
I ran a load over published max… which I had done a few years back using 77 gr OTMS… and had good results then, but never followed up because the target load we run has always been good for us.
The velocity is just under 2800 fps with a 20” barrel.
https://i.imgur.com/sqT1Pa5.jpg
The load is 77 gr TMK, WOLF SRM primer, 22.2gr H322. (pressure might vary with hotter primers and different poweder lots)
https://i.imgur.com/tJx57DC.jpg
Eurodriver
04-29-19, 14:26
Why you messing with perfection bro? Did something cause you to leave the below for H322?
I shot this group yesterday at 300 yards with your original SMK load using a TMK bullet.
LC brass
CCI 450
23.5gr XBR 8208 (warning: over max)
77gr TMK
COAL 2.255”
2757 FPS at 90°F SD of 7 - 2738 FPS at 30°F
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?179387-600-yard-steel-shooting-with-5-56-9-2-2017-Sub-MOA-1000-(lol-but-for-real)&p=2731006#post2731006
https://i.imgur.com/Hm5Pn5r.jpg
Wow! That's a great 300 yard group. We never get a chance to shoot beyond 100 for groups. Our spot usually has just enough wind to make groups a pain to shoot.
Eurodriver
04-29-19, 14:56
Thanks man! I was blown away when I looked at it.
I’m assuming then you switched to get better SDs or something?
I’m only asking because you and Onyx put me on that load a few years ago and I’ve never looked back. Very interested why you’d be switching since it has always been fantastic for me. I think you always used it with SMKs right?
I see a lot of folks have good results with Russian primers, but I can never seem to find them anywhere. Are these from a giant personal stockpile, or do you still buy them from somewhere?
I’m assuming then you switched to get better SDs or something?
No. Just had a 150 pieces of once fired LC someone left us. So I pulled out a box of TMKs and just goosed the H322 load up to try something different.
I see a lot of folks have good results with Russian primers, but I can never seem to find them anywhere. Are these from a giant personal stockpile, or do you still buy them from somewhere?
We have a stockpile from hell. I went long in them back when Wideners sold them for a price that would make you cry now. And Pappabear scooped some more up from back page before they shut that operation down.
Thanks for posting the experiment. Most sources that I looked into described H322 as a powder best suited for lighter weight bullets (55gr and less). Good to know that the heavier weight projectiles are also possible.
We normally don’t shoot TMK’s because the Noslers are almost as good and much cheaper. But since we had all same brass, we thought, let’s try and stretch out some high BC loads a little hotter. Next week, maybe we can try some long distance groups along with slappping steel. We popped the 1k a couple times. Sometimes we have to hit target then miss it to the side just to make sure we are there. We shoot a Rem 700 5R with can that is lights out and a blast to shoot.
PB
Thanks for posting the experiment. Most sources that I looked into described H322 as a powder best suited for lighter weight bullets (55gr and less). Good to know that the heavier weight projectiles are also possible.
The faster burning, benchrest extruded powders combined with mild primers have shot heavy bullets very well for us for years. I can't even remember what prompted me to try the combination.
We normally don’t shoot TMK’s because the Noslers are almost as good and much cheaper. But since we had all same brass, we thought, let’s try and stretch out some high BC loads a little hotter. Next week, maybe we can try some long distance groups along with slappping steel. We popped the 1k a couple times. Sometimes we have to hit target then miss it to the side just to make sure we are there. We shoot a Rem 700 5R with can that is lights out and a blast to shoot.
PB
Pappabear, are you using the RDF or CC Nosler?
Good stuff. I really need to try the TMK's. Some of my best results have been 77gr SMK with 22.9gr of XBR out of an 18' barrel. Velocity was around 2790 at 53*F. I am curious to see how it works when the weather gets cooking here in a couple of months.
Eurodriver
04-29-19, 20:52
23.9 WOW
23.9 WOW
Oops, that's a typo. Was 22.9. Glad you called that out, I'll edit my post. Thanks.
This H322 loaf is interesting but the XBR load I think is one of those rare universal exceptional loads. Seems somewhere between 22.9-23.5 every gun will find a super accurate node. Mine like either 23.0 or 23.2 depending on the rifle. A real classic load for 77 gr bullets. I also shoot the Nosler CC since I can get them cheap in the 1000 ct lot.
Oops, that's a typo. Was 22.9. Glad you called that out, I'll edit my post. Thanks.
That’s what I tried with the 69 TMKs. I guess I need to bump that up.
With these results, maybe I’ll give the 77s a try.
This H322 loaf is interesting but the XBR load I think is one of those rare universal exceptional loads.
Yep. I like to have back up alternatives in case we run short on a given powder, or the political environment causes panic buying.
Pappabear, are you using the RDF or CC Nosler?
The CC Noslers are what we run.
Where are you guys getting Wolf SRMs?
I thought that they were no longer available and had resigned myself to using 205's
Where are you guys getting Wolf SRMs?
I thought that they were no longer available and had resigned myself to using 205's
People stocked up back when they could get them.
People stocked up back when they could get them.
Yep. Now they're reserved for 77 gr bullets. Everything else gets Win SR or CCI 400s.
Damn, I was hoping there was a source again.
I've got my own stock, just wish I could keep adding to it when I use them.
Damn, I was hoping there was a source again.
I've got my own stock, just wish I could keep adding to it when I use them.
It does hurt a little when you pop open a new box.
Tried the 77 TMK with 23.5 XBR. Got decent results of 2705 FPS from a 16” barrel, the SD was 10. But 23.0 got me 2633 with an extreme spread of 3 FPS. I need to recheck that one.
But it doesn’t buy much over the RDF for the extra coin.
I haven’t shot the TMK but I can’t see how any of the tip designs of these heavy target bullets have significant difference until you get out to at least 500 yds. Quality of manufacture can show up in as short as 100 yds but open tip versus tip “A” versus tip “B” seems too fine a detail within 300 yds. And then I would expect it has more to do with wind drift and drop than accuracy. Is there experience otherwise?
I haven’t shot the TMK but I can’t see how any of the tip designs of these heavy target bullets have significant difference until you get out to at least 500 yds. Quality of manufacture can show up in as short as 100 yds but open tip versus tip “A” versus tip “B” seems too fine a detail within 300 yds. And then I would expect it has more to do with wind drift and drop than accuracy. Is there experience otherwise?
Sure seems to be the case. I spoke with a President's 100 shooter the other day and he still had a very strong preference for 77gr SMKs despite plenty of other quality bullet designs available. We discussed the TMKs, etc. I found it interesting that he liked the 77gr TMKs as well, but not the 69gr TMK.
Edit: the guy I referenced earlier apparently set several Service Rifle records last year. He probably knows a little about stuff.
I haven’t shot the TMK but I can’t see how any of the tip designs of these heavy target bullets have significant difference until you get out to at least 500 yds. Quality of manufacture can show up in as short as 100 yds but open tip versus tip “A” versus tip “B” seems too fine a detail within 300 yds. And then I would expect it has more to do with wind drift and drop than accuracy. Is there experience otherwise?
I too really prefer the OTMs over the TMKs. In 77 gr, the performance difference doesn't really show up until we're past 500 yards.
On the flip side the 69gr TMK load in 5.56 from Black Hills is remarkably better/flatter shooting than any bullet in any weight in the caliber.
Mark,
How big of a difference are you seeing with TMK vs SMK past 500? Your older thread sold me on 77 gr SMKs with 21.6g H322. I have been keeping tabs on this thread since it popped up but I am still using SMKs. Is it really worth the minor price jump to use TMKs?
Mark,
How big of a difference are you seeing with TMK vs SMK past 500? Your older thread sold me on 77 gr SMKs with 21.6g H322. I have been keeping tabs on this thread since it popped up but I am still using SMKs. Is it really worth the minor price jump to use TMKs?
This last batch was loaded much hotter than the 77gr OTM load we run. So it's not apples to apples. I'd have to have Pappabear check his dope sheet to see what we got at 750 and 1000 yards.
But that brings up a good point. Better BC hasn't really translated into better hit probability for us. There's days where, for example, the S&B 6.5 CM load is getting us more predictable hits on the 1300 yard steel and the American gunner OTM. And the difference is like 2.0 mils of come up.
Pappabear spotted me onto a 1000 yard hit in 2 rounds with this load today.
https://i.imgur.com/gxc3JvI.jpg
22.2gr H322? With no optic?! How dare you! Lol. That's quite amazing. What length barrel and velocity?
Reset that Magnetospeed to give you ES rather than SD.
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Reset that Magnetospeed to give you ES rather than SD.
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Why? It’s way easier to figure out es than sd.
Why? It’s way easier to figure out es than sd.
Because SD doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. ES is what matters.
For a good, predictable load, ES needs to be less than 20, for a great load less than 10.
It’s amazing how many of the misses attributed to wind are actually elevation related due to large variations in velocity.
For instance, a 50 fps ES on a .308 with 175s at 800 will result in a .4 mil elevation variation; more than enough to miss the target.
What does SD tell us? Really, as far as useful data, nothing. It’s just telling us variation from the mean. It doesn’t tell us what those extremes are. The extreme samples are misses.
I believe there are a few videos from guys like Scott Saterlee on the topic.
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Not disagreeing, but I can figure ES out with simple math, SD not so much. And if I has a SD of 6 or less, most likely the ES will also be low.
Not disagreeing, but I can figure ES out with simple math, SD not so much. And if I has a SD of 6 or less, most likely the ES will also be low.
But what does the SD tell you that is useful? It’s irrelevant information. Knowing it doesn’t help your load.
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22.2gr H322? With no optic?! How dare you! Lol. That's quite amazing. What length barrel and velocity?
16" barrel. Pappabear has the milradian eye piece on his spotting scope. So I picked an aiming point 13 mils up the mountain, and held for wind. I tried to get a pick of the point of hold, but couldn't hold my phone steady enough over the eye piece.
Not disagreeing, but I can figure ES out with simple math
Yeah. The MIN/MAX are right there on the screen. I tend to look as spread if the SD isn't good. I.E. is there one odd ball velocity or is the whole string all over the place.
Not disagreeing, but I can figure ES out with simple math
Yeah. The MIN/MAX are right there on the screen. I tend to look as spread if the SD isn't good. I.E. is there one odd ball velocity or is the whole string all over the place.
22.2gr H322? With no optic?! How dare you! Lol. That's quite amazing. What length barrel and velocity?
It was ridiculous, we don't appreciate how much turrets do for us. Mark had to hold the top of the Mountain, literally, and the DOPE was dead on but missed right, I gave him a 4 mil wind call and Bingo. Gave us quite a laugh. He was on yesterday. I sprayed the mountain with my MWS in 308, got pissed and grabbed the 300WM, drilled a Popper at 750 and a target at 1k and 1,300 with no misses. When the ego is fragile, 300M is the medicine.
PB
When you're tired of dicking around.... Grab the 300!
https://i.imgur.com/UovhbQq.jpg
Kansaswoodguy
05-14-19, 23:31
SD is dependent on ES I only look at SD bolt gun under 10 semi-auto I try for the teens.
May all your bullets hit there target.
pyrotechnic
05-24-19, 09:02
But what does the SD tell you that is useful? It’s irrelevant information. Knowing it doesn’t help your load.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm sure there are some guys here that know way more about statistics than I, but I'll take a stab at it an explain why I look at SD and rarely at ES during load development.
Standard Deviation will tell you the likely-hood of a shot's velocity falling within a certain deviation from the mean velocity. The Extreme Spread only gives you the difference between the two outliers in your string. A round that I may have dicked up could be the cause for a high ES, while while a high SD is indicative of a load that will consistently result in a larger vertical divergence at distance.
For a visual reverence think of a bell curve with steep sides having a low SD (the vast majority of the shots are in the center by the mean).
The high SD bell curve is one that looks like it got pancaked with a hammer. Yeah, all the shots are still within the same ES, but they're as likely to be on the high and low end as they are in the middle.
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I get that. But the ES is telling you about your process. The ES is telling you not only that your load is adequate, but that you aren’t making mistakes in your loading process. Those outliers are misses. The 90% or 95% within your deviation just tells you that the load works. But it’s a poor indicator of when you’re going to miss because of your ammo.
Much of the time when dudes blame wind, they are under or over the target because they had a round 50 FPS from their average velocity. Their process needs fixed or their components have a problem. But if the guy doesn’t look at ES, and only looks at SD, their SD will indicate there isn’t a problem and it’s just an “outlier”. When the guy works up the load an only runs ten across the chronograph, one or two rounds are “outliers”, what happens when ten or twenty percent of the time 100 rounds they loaded for a match or for hunting turn out to be “outliers”? They MISS. They either drop one into the 7 ring at 600, or miss 2/3 IPSC targets at 800, or they gut shoot an animal.
If loading for precision, the “outlier” needs to be within 20 FPS, but preferably 10 FPS.
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Think of it this way, you can’t have a bad SD with a good ES. But you can have a good SD with a shit ES.
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Think of it this way, you can’t have a bad SD with a good ES. But you can have a good SD with a shit ES.
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You can have either. You can shoot an even 2" 10-shot group or a .5" 9 shot group with one flier opening to 2".
They are not the same. ES and SD should both be factored (and 3sigma if youre sick). Yes in the above example root cause analysis needs to happen, but you can see whats possible, and there is an intermittent issue vs normal variation.
Also - any updates on these loads? Im looking to start loading 223/556. Right now the plan is to replicate the OG markm load.
Is there a new better go-to or start there?..
Also, does brass need trimmed each firing? Im coming from pistol loading so trimming and pocket reaming are uncharted territory. Thanks yall.
Also - any updates on these loads? Im looking to start loading 223/556. Right now the plan is to replicate the OG markm load.
Is there a new better go-to or start there?..
Also, does brass need trimmed each firing? Im coming from pistol loading so trimming and pocket reaming are uncharted territory. Thanks yall.
The problem we've realized is (since starting to load long range/precision whatever ammo) lot changes are huge. I always thought is was benchrest dogma, but the H322 we're shooting now is different than the old stuff.
I was getting popped primers on some ammo loaded milder than stuff I had success with years before.
I'd just start at the good old 21.6 and adjust from there. As far as trimming, I use the giraud and trim every time. Doesn't take much off, but it chamfers the case neck.
The problem we've realized is (since starting to load long range/precision whatever ammo) lot changes are huge. I always thought is was benchrest dogma, but the H322 we're shooting now is different than the old stuff.
I was getting popped primers on some ammo loaded milder than stuff I had success with years before.
I'd just start at the good old 21.6 and adjust from there. As far as trimming, I use the giraud and trim every time. Doesn't take much off, but it chamfers the case neck.
Thanks. Ive been pre-prepping brass waiting for my dies to show up, lol. Cant wait to start.
Cool. Are you going to anneal or load bulk and skip annealing like I do?
SUPER impressed with your velocity on that! Shoots pretty good as well! In my 20"(slow for a 20") could never get above ~2640fps with H322/77's without pressure signs. I do remember right at 22.0gr shot very accurately though.
This H322 loaf is interesting but the XBR load I think is one of those rare universal exceptional loads. Seems somewhere between 22.9-23.5 every gun will find a super accurate node. Mine like either 23.0 or 23.2 depending on the rifle. A real classic load for 77 gr bullets. I also shoot the Nosler CC since I can get them cheap in the 1000 ct lot.
I believe that the xbr load in that range is pretty universal as well, my node is 23.1-23.4gr with a 77gr SMK.
SUPER impressed with your velocity on that! Shoots pretty good as well! In my 20"(slow for a 20") could never get above ~2640fps with H322/77's without pressure signs. I do remember right at 22.0gr shot very accurately though.
I believe that the xbr load in that range is pretty universal as well, my node is 23.1-23.4gr with a 77gr SMK.
I’m at 23.8 gr in mine. Velocity around 2740 fps.
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I'm a big fan of the 23.4gr XBR/77gr TMK load.
Cool. Are you going to anneal or load bulk and skip annealing like I do?
I have a shit ton of once-fired 556 brass from over the years. I dont plan on annealing it right now, unless I get a lot of split cases.
I decapped and did a quick tumble. My media is dirty so im getting the heavy shit off then changing media.
My plan is to de-crimp, resize, tumble, and hand prime.
Then run it all through my 550 once I get it set.
Still need a trimmer, and chrono.
ViniVidivici
02-26-22, 15:25
Right in between tumble and hand prime, is where you'll trim.
Me, I measure and trim only what's over 1.760, others with nicer automated setups like markm's Giraud, just put them all through.
Most of mine does not have to be trimmed after the 2nd and sometimes first firing. My Hornady dies do a good job of bumping the shoulder back.
any issue moving the neck expander step to after hand-priming?
Im thinking of sizing/depriming in a single stage, doing all the "off-machine" prep (decrimp, tumble, trim, handprime), then run through my 550 with a: 1. expanding die, 2. powder drop, 3. seat, 4. crimp
Thanks guys.
I'll probably end up with a Giraud, but if I can start chrono-ing and getting decent ammo cranked out without trimming that would be awesome. Might try some out once my dies show up.
any issue moving the neck expander step to after hand-priming?
Im thinking of sizing/depriming in a single stage, doing all the "off-machine" prep (decrimp, tumble, trim, handprime), then run through my 550 with a: 1. expanding die, 2. powder drop, 3. seat, 4. crimp
Thanks guys.
I'll probably end up with a Giraud, but if I can start chrono-ing and getting decent ammo cranked out without trimming that would be awesome. Might try some out once my dies show up.
The Giraud Tri-Way trimmer is a great product if you don't feel like spending the money of the self contained unit.
The Giraud Tri-Way trimmer is a great product if you don't feel like spending the money of the self contained unit.
Wow, definitely going that route for now! Thanks!
Most of mine does not have to be trimmed after the 2nd and sometimes first firing.
Yep. After the first firing, the trimmer just kissed the neck. The chamfer is really why I do it every time.
any issue moving the neck expander step to after hand-priming?
Shouldn't be a problem. I like to size the batch, then run it all through the neck size, Then I can give it a final tumble before priming.
Wow, definitely going that route for now! Thanks!
Absolutely! The thing is fast enough I don't bother sorting brass. Just run all of them through it because it's faster than measuring individual cases. I use mine with a corded Dewalt drill since it has high RPM.
Absolutely! The thing is fast enough I don't bother sorting brass. Just run all of them through it because it's faster than measuring individual cases. I use mine with a corded Dewalt drill since it has high RPM.
Welp, I have tri-way, dillon carbide sizing die, forster micro seater, and rcbs neck expander on the way... along with 3k nosler cc w/cannelure ($65/250 from midway).
...but my 9mm dies showed up early so I'll be processing all that brass first. Thanks for all the input - everyone!
dillon carbide sizing die,
Are you going to take out the carbide expander ball? (remove ball, re-install decap pin without it) That's a key piece of making good loads.
Are you going to take out the carbide expander ball? (remove ball, re-install decap pin without it) That's a key piece of making good loads.
Lol absolutely. I've read your posts!!
1.quick tumble to remove heavy dirt
2. Lube
3. Decap/resize
4. Trim/de-crimp
5. Cean
6. Prime
7. Expand neck
8. Powder
9. Seat
10. FCD
I may combine steps 6&7. Well see.
End goal is for a balance of volume and 1moa or less once I get my match barrel
Are you going to take out the carbide expander ball? (remove ball, re-install decap pin without it) That's a key piece of making good loads.
What’s that change/do and what’s the reason for it?
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What’s that change/do and what’s the reason for it?
Expander ball will usually cause case neck stretch when you pull the ram back down. AND, more importantly, it gives case neck runout.
Eliminating the ball reduces greatly the amount of trimming needed and greatly improves runout. If you take out the expander ball you need to add a neck sizing die to your process because standard dies squeeze the neck down too far so that the expander ball can open them back up to size.
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