View Full Version : Am I wrong?
I've come to the conclusion that for most practical purposes, chrome lined barrels have caught up to stainless. I can see that stainless barrels might still have a distinct edge for certain applications, like precision bolt action rifles and maybe even for match ARs. But for the RECCE/SPR type rifle shooting factory match grade ammo, it seems to me that a person would be better served with a high quality chrome lined barrel. I simply don't see the advantage of a stainless barrel unless you're willing to handload and you're using it for something where fractions of an inch matter.
Some of this is based on the stuff that Molon has posted. I've lurked on several forums and seen the stuff he's done over the years, and the claims he has made seem to be the cold hard truth of the matter. For the most part, I'm seeing that stainless barrels aren't as accurate as people claim, and chrome lined barrels, at least some of them, are way more accurate than most people give them credit for.
So what says the collective? Has the paradigm shifted?
I've come to the conclusion that for most practical purposes, chrome lined barrels have caught up to stainless. I can see that stainless barrels might still have a distinct edge for certain applications, like precision bolt action rifles and maybe even for match ARs. But for the RECCE/SPR type rifle shooting factory match grade ammo, it seems to me that a person would be better served with a high quality chrome lined barrel. I simply don't see the advantage of a stainless barrel unless you're willing to handload and you're using it for something where fractions of an inch matter.
Some of this is based on the stuff that Molon has posted. I've lurked on several forums and seen the stuff he's done over the years, and the claims he has made seem to be the cold hard truth of the matter. For the most part, I'm seeing that stainless barrels aren't as accurate as people claim, and chrome lined barrels, at least some of them, are way more accurate than most people give them credit for.
So what says the collective? Has the paradigm shifted?
Nitride. More consistent than chrome given equal levels of prep...As hard as chrome, more susceptible to heat damage than chrome but that's not an issue with a precision rifle generally. Cheaper than hard chrome too.....
Better. Personal opinion, worth what you paid for it.
RobertTheTexan
05-05-19, 09:34
If you’re talking about the B.E. Meyers MAWL-C1, then the paradigm has definitely shifted.
But ref. your OP, I’ve seen better accuracy from 416R SS barrels than chrome lines from equitable manufacturers, and that’s been pretty consistent across my barrels. I don’t think I mentally shoot one better than the other, and I use factory SMK ammo in both.
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I've come to the conclusion that for most practical purposes, chrome lined barrels have caught up to stainless. I can see that stainless barrels might still have a distinct edge for certain applications, like precision bolt action rifles and maybe even for match ARs. But for the RECCE/SPR type rifle shooting factory match grade ammo, it seems to me that a person would be better served with a high quality chrome lined barrel. I simply don't see the advantage of a stainless barrel unless you're willing to handload and you're using it for something where fractions of an inch matter.
Some of this is based on the stuff that Molon has posted. I've lurked on several forums and seen the stuff he's done over the years, and the claims he has made seem to be the cold hard truth of the matter. For the most part, I'm seeing that stainless barrels aren't as accurate as people claim, and chrome lined barrels, at least some of them, are way more accurate than most people give them credit for.
So what says the collective? Has the paradigm shifted?
You have to understand the history first. Back around 2000 there were little to none chrome lined barrels on the market. SS was easier to make at the time and it was usually a better barrel then anything else available.
That is why you will see 10.5" SS barrels. In reality there is no application for a 10.5 SS barrel today now that there Re a variety of other options, CHF Chrome Lined, Nitrated, etc......
But if you are are wanting a precision AR with like a 16" barrel then a high quality SS barrel is the way to go still. Other than that there is not a logical reason to use one other than it is America and you can. ;)
One of my personal pet peeves now days is to see a SS 16" barreled AR with a reflex sight on it...... it is like the AR is confused on what it should do........ like putting a 6" lift kit on a 4x2 truck....... just why???????
RobertTheTexan
05-05-19, 10:24
Gender confused AR’s are amongst us now.
I knew it was only a matter of time.
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Only to be worked on in transgendered armorers rooms...
Gender confused AR’s are amongst us now.
I knew it was only a matter of time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Skrapmetal
05-05-19, 12:12
I am happy enough with Colt socom barrels, DD's CHF barrels, and Criterion barrels. Most of my barrels are one of those now, with the exemption of bargain builds.
Renegade04
05-05-19, 15:49
I am of the thought that stainless steel barrels are more geared towards precision ARs and not your general purpose/SHTF ARs. That is why I only have a few SS barreled ARs and they are topped with scopes as they are for precision type shooting. All of my other ARs have chrome-lined or unlined (only a couple of them like this) barrels.
In reality there is no application for a 10.5 SS barrel today now that there Re a variety of other options, CHF Chrome Lined, Nitrated, etc......
But if you are are wanting a precision AR with like a 16" barrel then a high quality SS barrel is the way to go still. Other than that there is not a logical reason to use one other than it is America and you can. ;)
One of my personal pet peeves now days is to see a SS 16" barreled AR with a reflex sight on it...... it is like the AR is confused on what it should do........ like putting a 6" lift kit on a 4x2 truck....... just why???????
100% total agreement from me.
SS barrels are a good thing in their given specialty, but that specialty has been pulled into the generic AR15 market for some odd reason.
To answer the question from the OP, a good SS barrel is still going to outshoot a chrome lined barrel.
When I think of SS barrels I think of Hart's/Douglas/Shilen air-gauged ones. For accuracy, period. And yes, some budget SS barrels have made it into the "general use" AR market. I highly doubt they are capable of true "match" accuracy.
One of my personal pet peeves now days is to see a SS 16" barreled AR with a reflex sight on it...... it is like the AR is confused on what it should do........ like putting a 6" lift kit on a 4x2 truck....... just why???????
like putting a 6" lift kit on a 4x2 truck One reason to put a 6" lift kit on a 4x2 truck is to keep it out of the grass when you park it on your front lawn.
In reality there is no application for a 10.5 SS barrel today now that there Re a variety of other options, CHF Chrome Lined, Nitrated, etc......
But if you are are wanting a precision AR with like a 16" barrel then a high quality SS barrel is the way to go still. Other than that there is not a logical reason to use one other than it is America and you can. ;)
One of my personal pet peeves now days is to see a SS 16" barreled AR with a reflex sight on it...... it is like the AR is confused on what it should do........ like putting a 6" lift kit on a 4x2 truck....... just why???????
100% total agreement from me.
SS barrels are a good thing in their given specialty, but that specialty has been pulled into the generic AR15 market for some odd reason.
To answer the question from the OP, a good SS barrel is still going to outshoot a chrome lined barrel.
Where am I going wrong with this thought process:
I want the best barrel possible to mitigate the following: I have a certain degree of wobble built into me; if I'm using a 2.5moa dot I'm probably dealing with 3moa precision; if I'm shooting a 2moa barrel that potentially stacks up to 5moa. (It doesn't work out to that particular MOA, but you get the idea)
In view of that thought process I want to get the best (accurate) barrel I choose to pay for.
I've come to the conclusion that for most practical purposes, chrome lined barrels have caught up to stainless. I can see that stainless barrels might still have a distinct edge for certain applications, like precision bolt action rifles and maybe even for match ARs. But for the RECCE/SPR type rifle shooting factory match grade ammo, it seems to me that a person would be better served with a high quality chrome lined barrel. I simply don't see the advantage of a stainless barrel unless you're willing to handload and you're using it for something where fractions of an inch matter.
Some of this is based on the stuff that Molon has posted. I've lurked on several forums and seen the stuff he's done over the years, and the claims he has made seem to be the cold hard truth of the matter. For the most part, I'm seeing that stainless barrels aren't as accurate as people claim, and chrome lined barrels, at least some of them, are way more accurate than most people give them credit for.
So what says the collective? Has the paradigm shifted?
A good chrome barrel like colt is around 1-1.3 moa with good ammo.
A good stainless will be less than or at 1moa. Find what you can do, and apply the equipment to the application.
If you need to make 1moa hits and have the skill- get a good stainless.
Where am I going wrong with this thought process:
I want the best barrel possible to mitigate the following: I have a certain degree of wobble built into me; if I'm using a 2.5moa dot I'm probably dealing with 3moa precision; if I'm shooting a 2moa barrel that potentially stacks up to 5moa. (It doesn't work out to that particular MOA, but you get the idea)
In view of that thought process I want to get the best (accurate) barrel I choose to pay for.
2 things:
1. Dot size =/= accuracy. You can shoot tighter groups than the dot size.
2. If accuracy is the main goal, yes go stainless. Chrome handles abuse, exposure and wear better. As above- determine the application and get the best barrel for it.
I don't think that you're wrong. Most people wildly overestimate the importance of sub MOA accuracy and their ability to achieve it.
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To answer the question from the OP, a good SS barrel is still going to outshoot a chrome lined barrel.
I certainly believe this to be true, and one thing I keep hearing that I believe is that a run of stainless barrels is always going to be more consistent than any chrome lined ones. Especially the last part I wholeheartedly believe to be true, given the little I know about how each is made.
However, my question is by how much. Realistically, what are talking. I think most people kind of have the impression that a good stainless barrel is maybe twice as accurate as a good chrome lined one. And in their minds that might be true, but there's a whole lot of dishonesty in how people analyze such things. With their stainless barrels, they'll judge them by the best group they got on the best day using the most badass handloads they've ever stumbled upon in their entire lives. Let's say that best group was just under .5 MOA, and now they're on the internets telling anyone who will listen that brand x is "half MOA all day long." And it never seems to dawn on them that that group was the result of the stars all aligning and some statistical probability thrown in on top of that. Sure, the other four groups they shot that day were closer to 1 MOA, but there was wind towards the end, two had a flyer because a bug flew in their eye...everyone knows how that goes. So they then perform these mental gymnastics to reassure themselves that that once in a lifetime group is somehow representative of what the barrel can do in a vacuum.
But then when it comes time to evaluate the chrome lined barrel, we're just going to fire a bunch of rounds into a target, probably using irons or a red dot, then just kind of extrapolate what the potential accuracy might be. And we're probably not using handloads, and if we are they're not going to be as meticulously dialed in.
What I'm seeing in reality, though, is that most stainless barrels are closer to 1 MOA, and a lot of chrome lined barrels these days can compete with that. I just think the gap, in general, is way closer than most people think it is. Not to mention I'm seeing a lot of what are ostensibly well respected stainless barrels that are very hard pressed to get much below 1.5 MOA with good ammo, so it's not like you're guaranteed anything when you buy what is supposed to be a premium barrel. I mean, maybe at the 700 dollar mark when you're buying a super premium match grade barrel, but certainly not at the 250-400 mark.
I also think some of this, or a lot of it, is coming from industry propaganda. Getting into producing good chrome lined barrels isn't something that boutique manufacturers do lightly, so it's no wonder they're all pushing stainless ones. The blanks are pretty cheap and plentiful. But when it comes to top tier chrome lined AR barrels, a few very large entities absolutely dominate that market.
When I think of SS barrels I think of Hart's/Douglas/Shilen air-gauged ones. For accuracy, period. And yes, some budget SS barrels have made it into the "general use" AR market. I highly doubt they are capable of true "match" accuracy.
That's where I'm at in my thinking, as well. If you're not spending upwards of 500 dollars, going with a match profile, and meticulously handloading-and using the barrel for something where small fractions of an inch make all the difference-then the appeal of stainless really starts losing its luster.
100% total agreement from me.
SS barrels are a good thing in their given specialty, but that specialty has been pulled into the generic AR15 market for some odd reason.
To answer the question from the OP, a good SS barrel is still going to outshoot a chrome lined barrel.
When I think of SS barrels I think of Hart's/Douglas/Shilen air-gauged ones. For accuracy, period. And yes, some budget SS barrels have made it into the "general use" AR market. I highly doubt they are capable of true "match" accuracy.
A good chrome barrel like colt is around 1-1.3 moa with good ammo.
A good stainless will be less than or at 1moa. Find what you can do, and apply the equipment to the application.
If you need to make 1moa hits and have the skill- get a good stainless.
That's kind of what I'm seeing as well, although I would argue that lots of what are generally considered to be "good" stainless barrels (won't name names, but I think everyone here probably has a few jump to mind) will fall short of that 1 MOA mark, with many more towards the 1.5 MOA side of things.
But let's say that a good stainless barrel, on average, is .25 MOA better than a good chrome lined one. What does that mean in the real world, with a RECCE style AR? I think the absolute best example of the real world applications for a RECCE style AR are found in Marcus Luttrel's account. So we're talking a fairly large volume of fire at times, which means getting the barrel hot, with intermittent precise shots made at intermediate ranges, and from what is not going to be the most ideal position. You know, we're talking maybe getting a bench rest off a rock or maybe support on a tree or something like that. It's been a long time since I've read the book, but I don't even know if he once used the bipod during that whole thing. Even when he sniped the sentry, I'm wanting to say he didn't. In any case, we're talking something designed to be used in a very dynamic environment.
So if that .25 MOA advantage is what it shakes out to, and I feel like that's being pretty generous, does that make a difference? I mean, at 400 yards, that's a four inch vs. five inch group, and that's in a perfect world where there's no wind, no shooter error, the bore is cold, etc. But in the real world, there's wind, the shooter is tired and scared poopless, the bore is hot, support is crap, targets are moving and shooting back...
Even at its maximum range at around 800 yards, we're still only talking an eight inch vs. ten inch group. And of course wind and all that jazz is even more of a problem pushing it out that far.
Gender confused AR’s are amongst us now.
I knew it was only a matter of time.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I like my tranny ARs.
One of my personal pet peeves now days is to see a SS 16" barreled AR with a reflex sight on it...... it is like the AR is confused on what it should do........ like putting a 6" lift kit on a 4x2 truck....... just why???????
There is actually an application for that, extra suspension travel without the 4x4 need, think running around on sand dunes in Baja California...
My PRI built Douglas 16" SS upper is consistently my most accurate against three Noveske SS barrels and one 20" LMT that I don't have much time on yet. The Noveske 16" and 18" medcon and 20" varmint have been meh overall but they work...
There is actually an application for that, extra suspension travel without the 4x4 need, think running around on sand dunes in Baja California...
My PRI built Douglas 16" SS upper is consistently my most accurate against three Noveske SS barrels and one 20" LMT that I don't have much time on yet. The Noveske 16" and 18" medcon and 20" varmint have been meh overall but they work...
It gets me how much people spend on some of those barrels like Noveske. I've built some varmint uppers for people using no name stainless barrels I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, then they call and tell me how outrageously accurate they are. Go figure. I'm convinced you have to spend big bucks to get anything noteworthy, unless it's just a fluke, like probably in the neighborhood of 700, but outside that market I'm not sure there's any difference between like a Wilson and a Noveske or something. I've heard that BHW is the best kept secret in the precision barrel world. There's a guy who deals in them who can get you one for maybe like 250, and I've had some competition shooters tell me they're just as good as the big names in match AR barrels. Never had one myself, but I trust the person who told me that. At least he shoots enough to be in a position to know.
So where is melonite in this picture?
So where is melonite in this picture?
I have no idea. I get the impression folks around here don't like melonite, but I don't know why. I think it's fine for pistol barrels, at least. No one can deny it's been great for Glock. However, since pistol barrels last virtually forever it's more about corrosion prevention than it is about preserving barrel life.
One thing I will say, though, is that nitride finishes of today aren't generally what they used to be. Some are still pretty good, but the environmental regs have made the good stuff too expensive and bothersome to do. If you talk to people in that business, they'll tell you that they work at lower temps now, and with a different ratio of chemicals, all to reduce the amount of cyanide in the waste material from what I understand. I tend to believe them, too, because if you talk to machine shops like ADCO that do a lot of cutting on finished barrels they'll tell you most nitride can now be cut through with no problem.
So I don't know. The original high temp formula may have rivaled chrome in some ways, but I think what they're predominantly using now is probably just a corrosion preventative than anything else. Even though it's not what it used to be, it's still probably the best finish you can get to keep a gun from rusting, at least in terms of surface treatment that doesn't add any material to the dimensions of the part. For pistols and pistol caliber carbines I would rather have it than stainless I think.
I don't think that it's so much that guys here don't like it. They just refuted the wild claims that manufacturers were making about it. The whole "nitride/melonite barrels will last 30% longer than chrome lined barrels" claim that so companies were making without any data to back it up rubbed some people wrong.
So where is melonite in this picture?
Nitro Carburization is a surface conversion process, it doesn't affect the dimensions but may affect the surface finish to some degree. But with barrels, it depends on the quality of the machine work. That's what you're paying for with the high end SS barrels. So Melonite and such depends entirely on the barrel you're processing to begin with.
I have no idea. I get the impression folks around here don't like melonite, but I don't know why. I think it's fine for pistol barrels, at least. No one can deny it's been great for Glock. However, since pistol barrels last virtually forever it's more about corrosion prevention than it is about preserving barrel life.
One thing I will say, though, is that nitride finishes of today aren't generally what they used to be. Some are still pretty good, but the environmental regs have made the good stuff too expensive and bothersome to do. If you talk to people in that business, they'll tell you that they work at lower temps now, and with a different ratio of chemicals, all to reduce the amount of cyanide in the waste material from what I understand. I tend to believe them, too, because if you talk to machine shops like ADCO that do a lot of cutting on finished barrels they'll tell you most nitride can now be cut through with no problem.
So I don't know. The original high temp formula may have rivaled chrome in some ways, but I think what they're predominantly using now is probably just a corrosion preventative than anything else. Even though it's not what it used to be, it's still probably the best finish you can get to keep a gun from rusting, at least in terms of surface treatment that doesn't add any material to the dimensions of the part. For pistols and pistol caliber carbines I would rather have it than stainless I think.
I don't and I'll tell you why. I will state up front that I'd take a nitride/Melonite treated barrel over a non-treated (or lined) barrel anytime. No doubt about it. HK MR556 barrels are a good example; I would (and have when I had one) send it off to be nitrided.
That said, nitride is a cheap-ass alternative manufacturers are now using because they're too tight to pay for chrome lining (God forbid it cut into their profits), yet market it as "just as good or better". It isn't, despite what some fan-boys on here will say (who likely own nitrided barrels).
Your point about environmental regs is valid: I read where Glock's Tennifer process, perhaps the pinnacle of a nitriding process (and one I'd consider next for a rifle barrel if chroming wasn't available) is basically verboten nowadays because of that environmental crap.
Nitro Carburization is a surface conversion process, it doesn't affect the dimensions but may affect the surface finish to some degree. But with barrels, it depends on the quality of the machine work. That's what you're paying for with the high end SS barrels. So Melonite and such depends entirely on the barrel you're processing to begin with.
That is of course true. The argument I've heard made many times is that stainless steel can be cut much cleaner than CMV. Then there's another side that argues that that was true back in the old days, but not so much these days. Due to better tools and whatnot.
Important to note that stainless cannot be nitrided, at least not successfully. There was a low temp nitride developed for stainless, but it didn't offer any increased barrel length.
I don't and I'll tell you why. I will state up front that I'd take a nitride/Melonite treated barrel over a non-treated (or lined) barrel anytime. No doubt about it. HK MR556 barrels are a good example; I would (and have when I had one) send it off to be nitrided.
That said, nitride is a cheap-ass alternative manufacturers are now using because they're too tight to pay for chrome lining (God forbid it cut into their profits), yet market it as "just as good or better". It isn't, despite what some fan-boys on here will say (who likely own nitrided barrels).
Your point about environmental regs is valid: I read where Glock's Tennifer process, perhaps the pinnacle of a nitriding process (and one I'd consider next for a rifle barrel if chroming wasn't available) is basically verboten nowadays because of that environmental crap.
Agreed. Given the choice between nitride and in the white CMV, I'll of course take the nitride, if for nothing else than corrosion resistance. But if chrome is an option, I'll take that every time. I might not be too worried about a 300 BLK barrel with nitride, especially if I were only planning on shooting subs mostly. More towards a pistol at that point.
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