View Full Version : .308 Win reloading and brass questions
I've been doing some research on reloading for .308 Win but looking for some more advice. I inherited some W-W Super (Winchester) and LC brass as pictured below. I plan to body size and separately neck size. Looking to load either 169gr or 175gr SMKs for a 24in barreled 1-10 twist R700. I understand the differences between commercial .308 brass and military 7.62 brass including the case volume differences. I plan to shoot out to about 900 yards, not for competition.
For those of you who load .308 for bolt rifles, is it worth the hassle of using the brass I have? 400 pieces of the W-W Super and 200 LC Match 63. Seems most of the information I find online is to use match grade brass like Lapua and to avoid the types of brass I have.
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If you want the best results possible, Lapua, Norma, Nosler, and a few others are better and going to save you preparation time. But if you’re willing to put in the work, the Winchester brass is fine. You’ll want to cull any that don’t have centered primer pockets or that weigh on the extreme +/- from the mean.
You’ll want to trim to square the mouths, uniform the primer pockets, and debur the flash holes.
I don’t think there is much advantage to body size and neck size in different steps. In fact, the more times you handle the brass and run them though the press, the more opportunity you have for making a banana. I just full-length size mine unless I’m running them through in bulk for the purpose of making a progressive press run smoothly.
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Winchester makes good brass. It's not as uniform as Lapua or Norma, but it costs a fraction as much as them. Do you expect to be able to source more LC Match 63 brass for when your current inventory wears out? If not, then it's not worth working up a load that won't be able to be used long term.
If you'll have a long term supply of LC and plan to make up two different loads, then use Winchester for the long range load and LC for the other. I've got lots of LC on-match 7.62 brass, but I only use it in my semi-autos or for plinking/fouling ammo.
If you will be using the brass in one rifle, then there's no need to full length size the body....just size the necks.
Grizz, how many firings are you getting neck-only sizing before you have to full-length size?
What advantages have you empirically found to neck-only sizing?
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As long as the brass is only used in one rifle (and it's not going to be used in a situation when it absolutely positively has to work or you're dead), there's no need to ever full length resize. The brass only expands as large as the chamber allows it to, and the chamber size doesn't change.
I have not done a side by side accuracy comparison between full length and neck sizing, with all other factors remaining the same. With the brass fire formed to the chamber, the ideal fit is achieved. I don't know how much this helps, but it sure doesn't hurt.....and doesn't require any additional steps or labor to achieve.
The less brass is worked, the longer it will last.
I've seen no reason to do a scientific experiment to determine how many additional firings or what % reduction in MOA is achieved by neck sizing.
A lot of accomplished shooters actually have done the testing and it seems FL sizing, with a minimal shoulder set-back provides maximum brass life and reliable feeding.
Depending on load and cartridge, I seem to have run into problems between four and six firings with neck-only sizing. I have never found any advantage to neck-only sizing other than it being smoother in a progressive press.
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Neck sizing doesn't eliminate the stretching of the brass during the firing process, it just reduces it. After it's been fired multiple times, the brass will lose some of it's flexibility, and won't return to the pre-fired size. The number of times it can be fired will depend on the pressure of load and the quality of the brass. As it's fired additional times, it will eventually not spring back enough to be easily chambered. At this point, the shoulder must be bumped back. By that time, the brass has been fired enough times that many shooters, including myself, will consider it used up and will replace it.
Full length sizing with minimal shoulder bump-back is a solid option. I full length size for my 22-250, .270 Win, and 7mm Rem Mag hunting rifles and get fabulous results with the first two. I've had no desire to change my process.
Neck sizing does not reduce the stretching of brass during the firing process. That is scientifically impossible. Physics still apply whether you’ve FL sized brass or neck sized it. What you are doing is banking on the shoulder to remain static, but then inducing increased expansion and setback where the neck sizing die stops.
There are some squared away people that have put the research in and settled this issue. I mean I don’t care if you like neck-sizing but I’m not sure anecdotal evidence should be the grounds for recommending it to a new reloaded.
It also seems you’re discarding brass more quickly due to your process, while believing it somehow increases life of your brass. I’m somewhat perplexed.
My competition rifle is chambered in .260 Remington. I’ve been shooting this round for years, long before Lapua brass was available. I was stuck with Remington brass, which has a bad reputation for poor service life.
My process, one which the efficacy has been confirmed by guys much smarter than you or me, is to FL size with 0.002” of shoulder set-back, anneal and trim every third firing. I get around 16 firings from my Remington brass with this method.
If I were neck-only sizing, my process would change every four firings to require a different die. I’d also, depending on neck-sizing technique, develop a donut that would further complicate the process.
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https://youtu.be/lLG2kSrD40g
This man has a legendary resume. Here is his rant on the topic.
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I'm not fan of the WIN brass in .308 or .223. .308 has the thin necks which don't work good for my set up. I body die and neck size like you're talking about doing. Lapua brass is slightly better, and worth it if you're not shooting 50 rounds every week or two. I found that our hot bolt gun load loosens up the primer pocket in as little as 3-5 firings.
FC brass and LC Long Range brass are both pretty decent. I'd load either of them without hesitation. They both have the thicker necks that work good in my collet neck die.
MEN brass is what I run in my 308 bolt gun right now because Pappabear shoots a lot of that ball ammo, and has a big pile of it. Sturdier that Lapua, and almost as good. With the volume we shoot, longevity is a high priority on the brass we run. Pouring a lot of prep into a brass that gives out on you too quickly is discouraging.
My opinion is to pick one kind of brass and stick with it because unlike .223, .308 brass varies greatly on internal case capacity.
Good luck.
Mark, if you’re getting loose primer pockets on Lapua brass after 3-5 firings, time to work up a new load! That is a waste, man!
If you say you need better performance, pick up a 6.5 Creedmoor or a .300 Win mag.
You’ll certainly find that the little performance increase you’re getting probably doesn’t show up down range much at all. Say you get 50 FPS more pushing it that hard, what does that calculate to in wind drift at 1,000? 0.05 mils?
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I am not new to reloading, just new to reloading for bolt action. I plan to neck size after fire forming brass to my chamber. The body die would be for initial sizing to fit my chamber or for new/new to me brass followed by neck sizing to have uniform neck tension. I was hoping to make use of the brass I have on hand seeing as I have about 400 pieces of the W-W Super and 200 of the LC LR Match. Looking at picking up a Redding body die and Lee neck collet die. Deciding on whether I want to use a Wilson seating die with an arbor press or just use a standard seating die in my press. I am open to other die/setup suggestions.
Other than varying internal case volume and crimped primer pockets, any issues in using the LC LR Match brass?
Other than thinner neck material, any issues in using the W-W Super brass?
I wouldn’t waste my money on an arbor press or such a die. Neck sizing will not provide more uniform neck tension. It does the same thing as a FL die as far as what it does to the neck. You cannot outside size the neck of your brass and inside size the neck of the brass in one process and expect uniformity unless you’ve first neck-turned the brass for consistent thickness. This may be a little more involved for a non-competitive shooter.
Almost sounds like you’re wanting benchest techniques and accuracy, if so, you’ll chase your tail with either brass you’re mentioning.
The common process for benchrest and F-Class these days is FL size with minimal shoulder bump with the expander removed. Follow that up with a carbide neck mandrel. That will get you more consistent internal neck diameter and thus neck tension. Unless you’re turning necks, the internal diameter is the part of the neck you want to focus on as it is what touches the bullet. External neck diameter is the focus of neck-turning. This typically requires a chamber cut with a custom reamer for a specific brand brass turned to a specific neck diameter.
I have been reloading precision ammunition on a progressive press the last year or so because I’m so busy anymore. I use a five station press. I run through a universal decapping die, then prime on the down stroke, next an S-Type Redding die with TiN bushing with no decapping rod or expander, then on to a Sinclair carbide neck mandrel, then I have a powder die modified for a funnel, I throw with an auto dispenser/trickler, then a Redding Competition seating die or Forster benchrest
I’m getting 0.001-0.002” runout in my reloaded rounds. I’ve been able to consistently score above 190-195/200 at 600. I’ve even managed some 196s and 198s.
This process is working well for me with .308, 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor, and .260 Remington. I don’t recommend this with .223 however because it’s difficult to get consistent charges with extruded powders with such a small case on the powder die.
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Mark, if you’re getting loose primer pockets on Lapua brass after 3-5 firings, time to work up a new load! That is a waste, man!
We run hot ammo... brass life be damned.
If you say you need better performance, pick up a 6.5 Creedmoor or a .300 Win mag.
We are indeed shooting two 6.5 cm guns and five 300WM guns.
Other than varying internal case volume and crimped primer pockets, any issues in using the LC LR Match brass?
Other than thinner neck material, any issues in using the W-W Super brass?
No issues with LC LR brass. I love it. My problems with WW brass was that the collet doesn't squeeze the necks down the same as the beefier brass flavors. And I didn't want to modify the madrell to fit brass I don't like in the first place.
Your body die will still be needed every few firings. At least in my experience... the bolt gets hard to close if I don't size the brass back a little. I just run the body die every time on all bolt ammo so I don't lose track. My die is set to our guns and usually my ammo won't chamber in guy's guns that are new.
I wouldn’t waste my money on an arbor press or such a die. Neck sizing will not provide more uniform neck tension. It does the same thing as a FL die as far as what it does to the neck. You cannot outside size the neck of your brass and inside size the neck of the brass in one process and expect uniformity unless you’ve first neck-turned the brass for consistent thickness.
With the LEE collet neck die, you can indeed neck size off the inside of the case neck. That's what I run and gets me, by far, the least neck runout.
For what it's worth, we sorted off the worst bullet runout rounds in a few boxes of factory ammo. (I'm talking like .007-.010+) and shot them against the straightest rounds. These were SMK (tangent ogive) bullets. There was no accuracy difference. That said, I still like minimizing runout as it's a reflection of a poor process.
We run hot ammo... brass life be damned.
If you know the consequences of your actions and don’t mind, you do you.
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With the LEE collet neck die, you can indeed neck size off the inside of the case neck. That's what I run and gets me, by far, the least neck runout.
For what it's worth, we sorted off the worst bullet runout rounds in a few boxes of factory ammo. (I'm talking like .007-.010+) and shot them against the straightest rounds. These were SMK (tangent ogive) bullets. There was no accuracy difference. That said, I still like minimizing runout as it's a reflection of a poor process.
No accuracy difference in what context?
Groups at 100 yards?
Hitting steel at 600?
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If you know the consequences of your actions and don’t mind, you do you.
Yeah.. I just cull them out as they get weak. We started out with like 300-400 pieces. I'd guess 20 or so have given up the ghost.
No accuracy difference in what context?
Groups at 100 yards?
Hitting steel at 600?
These were just fired at 100m on the high power range. Unfortunately both our current spot an the high power range have sub optimal wind conditions to draw good conclusions at "real" distance. The HP range at Rio Salado here in AZ often has horrible cross winds.
We shoot in it, and it is what it is. But comparative accuracy testing at distance is challenging.
For comparing high run-out rounds to low run-out, the difference I notice is the velocity ES. Lots of those “wind” misses are often elevation.
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By example, we had crazy tail winds on Sunday and shot over so many targets its nuts, using giving and known DOPE. We also shot most if not every target left on Sunday, WTF. Wind is a bitch.
PB
For comparing high run-out rounds to low run-out, the difference I notice is the velocity ES. Lots of those “wind” misses are often elevation.
That's interesting. I never thought of it as a potential velocity issue.
The common process for benchrest and F-Class these days is FL size with minimal shoulder bump with the expander removed. Follow that up with a carbide neck mandrel. That will get you more consistent internal neck diameter and thus neck tension.
I run through a universal decapping die, then prime on the down stroke, next an S-Type Redding die with TiN bushing with no decapping rod or expander, then on to a Sinclair carbide neck mandrel, then I have a powder die modified for a funnel, I throw with an auto dispenser/trickler, then a Redding Competition seating die or Forster benchrest.
So are you recommending I use a full length sizing die without the neck expander ball, then run a neck sizing die only? That is essentially what I do for my markm262 load. I am not familiar with the Redding S-Type dies with bushings. Would using a standard full length die like a Dillon or RCBS followed by an RCBS neck sizing or Lyman M die work to the same effect?
Would using a standard full length die like a Dillon or RCBS followed by an RCBS neck sizing or Lyman M die work to the same effect?
That's not a bad option, but you are working the necks a little more. That's how I do my .223 brass.
I hate the bushing dies. They might work good for some set ups where you're turning necks. But they sucked for me, and I got the dreaded donuts in my brass.
I don't have time or patience for neck turning. I get the process, but I refuse to deal with it.
So are you recommending I use a full length sizing die without the neck expander ball, then run a neck sizing die only? That is essentially what I do for my markm262 load. I am not familiar with the Redding S-Type dies with bushings. Would using a standard full length die like a Dillon or RCBS followed by an RCBS neck sizing or Lyman M die work to the same effect?
I recommend if you aren’t neck turning, a FL die without an expanded ball. Then use a Sinclair neck mandrel for expansion in a second step. You’ll get more consistent results in regards to runout.
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I recommend if you aren’t neck turning, a FL die without an expanded ball. Then use a Sinclair neck mandrel for expansion in a second step. You’ll get more consistent results in regards to runout.
I agree. The expander ball should almost never be the solution. I float my RCBS neck expander die's mandrell... it's not perfect runout-wise... but much better than ripping an expander out of my necks.
I appreciate the information. I'll look into FL and Body dies and separate neck sizing die/mandrel options.
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