View Full Version : Military Issued Optics for the M4A1 SOCOM Carbine
Prestonshooting
05-20-19, 19:11
New M4A1 SOCOM owner here. Is there a standard SOCOM issued optic for the M4A1 SOCOM? Is EOTECH still pretty much the standard issued site or....??? Thanks for any input.
Im not in the military but Id guess a ACOG or Aimpoint and your GTG.
PB
ExplorinInTheWoods
05-20-19, 20:22
The eotech and elcan are still common. The sig 1-6 and nightforce 1-8 atacr are supposed to be the next optics for LPVO and an improved eotech is the new red dot. You’re seeing a lot of guys buy their own optics like Leupold mk6’s, vortex razor and viper 1-6 optics, some Trijicon vcogs and accupowers. The usasoc urgi with geissele mk16 rail and 14.5 mid length from DD is still getting tested to see if it becomes the new upper.
So the M4A1 SOCOM really isn’t special anymore. Sure, it was first fielded to units under SOCOM, but literally the entire Army has been moving towards it for years. So far all of the units in BCTs, to include support units, are issued the M4A1. Are you trying to replicate what optic would’ve been used when it was first issued to SOCOM? Or do you mean present day, in which case, there are a ton of optics in use with the various units. The Rangers are still using Aimpoint micros last I heard, in addition to everything mentioned above. Or are you just trying to decide what optic would be good for you and assume that whatever SOF use will be good enough?
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Prestonshooting
05-25-19, 06:51
So the M4A1 SOCOM really isn’t special anymore. Sure, it was first fielded to units under SOCOM, but literally the entire Army has been moving towards it for years. So far all of the units in BCTs, to include support units, are issued the M4A1. Are you trying to replicate what optic would’ve been used when it was first issued to SOCOM? Or do you mean present day, in which case, there are a ton of optics in use with the various units. The Rangers are still using Aimpoint micros last I heard, in addition to everything mentioned above. Or are you just trying to decide what optic would be good for you and assume that whatever SOF use will be good enough?
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"whatever SOF use will be good enough"
Yes, good enough for them, more than good enough for me. Just curious to know. At this point, I'm going to put an ACOG on it and call it a day (for now), or maybe one of my EOTECHs, or Aimpoints....decisions decisions.
"whatever SOF use will be good enough"
Yes, good enough for them, more than good enough for me. Just curious to know. At this point, I'm going to put an ACOG on it and call it a day (for now), or maybe one of my EOTECHs, or Aimpoints....decisions decisions.
In that case, almost none of them run ACOGs anymore. It’s either an RDS or 1-something. Big army still uses plenty of ACOGs though.
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Prestonshooting
05-25-19, 07:04
OK, so maybe I'll put the EOTECH or Aimpoint on it. Nice to have options. :)
When I was in Afghan SF did have Eotechs as one of their optics but Wake is right. The M4A1 isn’t that special anymore, the BCT of the 101st that relieved my unit had all brand new M4A1s.
When I was in Afghan SF did have Eotechs as one of their optics but Wake is right. The M4A1 isn’t that special anymore, the BCT of the 101st that relieved my unit had all brand new M4A1s.
There’s Army Reserve units with M4A1’s at least as far back as a year ago. Also, Cadet Summer Training Camp has them.
There’s Army Reserve units with M4A1’s at least as far back as a year ago. Also, Cadet Summer Training Camp has them.
Don’t surprise me, been out since 2013. A few guys I know still in say that their guard and reserved units finally replaced their m16s with m4s.
Despite it's problems the EOTech seems to be the most commonly appearing RDS in pics of HSLD dudes. That said, I've seen the LPVO in more pics in the last few years.
Those Tier-1 fellows are more than likely smacking bad guys at "closer" ranges than an Infantry unit. Special and specific missions. If they have problems with their EOTech it'll get swapped out post-haste. I guess the LPVO realm is gathering steam these days.
Personally I prefer the FOV and reticle of the EOTech to an Aimpoint, be it M2/M3/M4 or Micro. I do not, however, think that the EOTech is as reliable for a number of reasons.....not "thermal drift", as they all have it to some degree, but battery life and other failure malfunctions. I have Aimpoint Micros, ACOGs, and one EOTech, so I am familiar with all of them.
I think the day will come that the LPVO will incorporate an EOTech-ish reticle and be much smaller and lighter. Maybe the size of an Aimpoint M2/M3/M4.
Honestly the Elcan was really awesome in my very limited experience with it. Better mount, shave a little weight, and drop the price and it would have a ton of potential.
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Army BCT has a lot of M4s
Honestly the Elcan was really awesome in my very limited experience with it. Better mount, shave a little weight, and drop the price and it would have a ton of potential.
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Heard nothing but good things about Elcans, was a popular optic with the SF boys I know. Never got to use one. Eventually would like to get my hands on one.
We got some Elcans for our M4’s around 2008 or so. I didn’t really like them, because of weight. We still had ACOGs and EoTechs available, so I stuck with those at the time. I wouldn’t mind giving the Can O’ Elk a try again. As I get older I appreciate variable mag more and more.
Obviously not the OP, but your input is always valued.
Can you expound upon your experiences training up on a LPVO? For various reasons I’m moving in that direction. There are certain nuances I’m discovering with training, but I’m finding I’m liking it more than expected with good performance results.
Also, what makes the Khales standout to you?
As a expert, it would be helpful to get your perspectives.
Again, thanks for your time and input.
If you take the time to train, the 1-6x variables offer alot. My favorite is the Kahles by a large margin.
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Honestly the Elcan was really awesome in my very limited experience with it. Better mount, shave a little weight, and drop the price and it would have a ton of potential.
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I recently got an Elcan for my MK18. It's an awesome scope. For a 14.5 clone that's what I'd chose. For me though, I don't get enough use out of it's 4x.
For a non-high end professional user who doesn't change batteries on interval nor habitually train with a vari-powered optic I would consider.
For a red dot I would go MicroT-2, 2moa dot. The 5year battery life doesn't suck. I like the EOTech's visual presentation, not the battery life or durability.
For an optic I would consider an ACOG 3.5x, good eye relief and FOV, stupid tough. The 4x versions blow, stay away.
If you take the time to train, the 1-6x variables offer alot. My favorite is the Kahles by a large margin.
Perhaps put a flip up magnifier behind a micro. Disadvantage is if not centered up will change POI, test for POI shift. Also, you will have 4 lenses to clear if getting out of an AC car or house into hot and humid environment.
I have tried this, and POI does not change. I have uncentered the magnifier by using a riser on it and not the rds, as well as by radically adjusting internals (g33). POI shifted an undetected amount (<0.25moa).
May I also add that it is a full 1/2 pound lighter than the venerable Vortex Razor HD Gen 2!
Kahles great glass, reticle (for me mil stadia), good illuminated pattern and generous eyebox across power.
FFP vs SFP... FFP too small at low, SFP reticle changes value across range. To accomodate this quickly and effectively takes a bit of practice.
Regarding magnifier changing POI, I just made that up. POI never changes when you bend light.
That made me chuckle.
patriot_man
05-30-19, 22:48
May I also add that it is a full 1/2 pound lighter than the venerable Vortex Razor HD Gen 2!
That made me chuckle.
I wonder if a Kahles can pass a side impact test. Weight is a big issue but if durability is #1, then I think the steel and solid brass internals of the Vortex Razor are worth considering.
I wonder as well. I really like this video which showcases both scopes.
https://youtu.be/JHzvI6zu7Mo
I wonder if a Kahles can pass a side impact test. Weight is a big issue but if durability is #1, then I think the steel and solid brass internals of the Vortex Razor are worth considering.
The weight savings on the newer Vortex Razor 1-6 “E” is a result of the internals now being made out of aluminum vs the brass on the non-E according to the Vortex Optics rep on this site.
I wonder if a Kahles can pass a side impact test. Weight is a big issue but if durability is #1, then I think the steel and solid brass internals of the Vortex Razor are worth considering.
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The weight savings on the newer Vortex Razor 1-6 “E” is a result of the internals now being made out of aluminum vs the brass on the non-E according to the Vortex Optics rep on this site.
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It’s not all of the internals, it has to do with the turrets or something small like that. My E took a hard spill when I first got it and had been fine.
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To be clear, I was not at all insinuating that Razor wasn’t durable. But it appears you are correct about the changes from brass to aluminum being partial:
VortexOptics Rep:
“...The lightening to the "E" model came almost exclusively from changing some materials internally from brass (An easier material to machine) to aluminum (A more difficult material to machine, but far lighter, and no less durable). If this scope were weak, there wouldn't be a Geissele-specific mount for a specific group within SOCOM to make a mount specific to that scope... i.e. - some hard asses use them...”
It’s not all of the internals, it has to do with the turrets or something small like that. My E took a hard spill when I first got it and had been fine.
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With the E variant, it's now only a 1/4 pound heavier than the Kahles.
Kahles great glass, reticle (for me mil stadia), good illuminated pattern and generous eyebox across power.
FFP vs SFP... FFP too small at low, SFP reticle changes value across range. To accomodate this quickly and effectively takes a bit of practice.
Regarding magnifier changing POI, I just made that up. POI never changes when you bend light.
With regards to SFP values changing in magnification, if used for ranging would you not be at max power anyway to get good ranging.
If at lower magnification and needing to use the SFP reticle as BDC, well would the target again be rather far anyway and would perhaps allow the quick turn of the magnification to max?
Just looking to hear a professionals opinion on how big of a detriment is the SFP reticle changing value?
With regards to SFP values changing in magnification, if used for ranging would you not be at max power anyway to get good ranging.
If at lower magnification and needing to use the SFP reticle as BDC, well would the target again be rather far anyway and would perhaps allow the quick turn of the magnification to max?
Just looking to hear a professionals opinion on how big of a detriment is the SFP reticle changing value?
Non issue in my opinion, for the reasons you said. And I like the way SFP reticles pop at 1x.
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