View Full Version : Question for DA/SA Guys
All of my experience has been with the 1911 platform or the striker guns ( M&P 2.0 , PPQ , FN S etc ) .
At a class a while back , Mike Pannone let me hold/dry fire his P07 that was set up by CGW . I`ve steered away from the DA/SA guns because of the long first pull . However , I decided to get one since Mike`s P07 felt good and I wanted to learn that trigger , so I picked up a CZ P01 a while back and had Cajun Gun Works set it up .
Love the gun ... fits me , easy to conceal , reliable and in SA mode , almost like my 1911`s . My problem is that I pull my first shot ( DA ) low and to the left a lot . I`ve experimented with grip , done lots of dry fire , but when I hit the range , the old DA monster gets me . Transition to the SA seems to be no problem , just the first shot.
You guys that use a DA/SA action have any suggestions or comments ? Yes, I`m know I`m asking for help on something you haven`t seen me shoot , but looking for possible areas to watch/work on .
Dry firing helps a lot. I really like DA/SA autos. My favorite is the HK45. I have a CZ Shadow. It’s nice.
On the trigger. You shouldn’t transition your trigger finger. Use the same part of your finger that you use for SA.
It takes practice, but it becomes second nature.
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SamuelBLong
05-23-19, 16:33
Make sure you are adding sufficient counter pressure to the frame with the support grip and thumb.
Without seeing your trigger management in person it would be difficult to offer more than that.
Make sure you’re treating the DA pull as a constant smooth manner and not trying to stage it... if you want to provide more specifics I can help further.
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Dry firing helps a lot as dobe mentioned.
I disagree with using the same part of your finger as you use for SA, the DA shot is THE money shot in a self-defense situation. You need to position your finger so you can pull through the DA shot smoothly and surely, with no hesitation. Generally, just in front of the first crease.
Low left with the DA is often caused by the shooter attempting to stage the DA trigger, don't do that. If I'm watching a shooter using a DA, whether it be a revolver or pistol, one of the things I look at is whether the hammer moves at the same speed throughout the DA trigger stroke, it should.
Years ago, when we transitioned folks from revolvers to DA/SA pistols, we did a lot of two shot drills, working on the transition from the DA pull (which they were familiar with) to the SA pull. We taught trigger movement to reset for the SA press.
In recent years, on the occasions that folks transitioned from striker-fired pistols to DA/SA pistols the emphasis was on training the first shot, so a lot of one shot drills with a dummy second - for a ten round mag start with a dummy, load live and repeat, ending with a live on top. Fire the first DA shot, then the SA dummy, immediate action without firing, decock and repeat. We primarily worked from the holster on these drills.
Dry firing - you can use the coin on the slide thing (ETA: I'm not as big on that drill as many folks are because over the years I've done a lot of dryfiring sitting on my butt with the revolver/pistol held between my legs). Start slowly and focus on watching the hammer roll smoothly back until it falls forward. You want to think of the DA press as jumping off the bridge, once you've started the press the only thing that stops it is deciding not to fire or someone/something entering your sight picture. For that reason, I wouldn't pay much attention to sights/target at this point -you are working on retraining yourself the DA press. Speed the process up as you become proficient.
Hope this helps, good luck.
I think you’re going to find most top shooters, who use a DA/SA, will use the same part of the finger for both. It doesn’t take too long to get accustomed to the pull.
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I think you’re going to find most top shooters, who use a DA/SA, will use the same part of the finger for both. It doesn’t take too long to get accustomed to the pull.
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I don't argue with that statement. I also realize that most folks aren't firing 10,000+ rounds a year, so what a top shooter does may not transfer directly.
Can’t argue the logic. Yet it really doesn’t take that much time to learn correctly. As you said - the first shot is the money shot. Hooking the first joint, the method most people tend to use for the DA pull, will cause the shooter to pull the shot.
Jerry Miculek is perhaps the best DA shooter in the world. I realize we’re talking DA revolvers now, but for the DA pull of a DA/SA, it’s all the same.
Jerry is a phenomenal shot, and recommends anyone wanting to learn, start with the basics including trigger finger placement. That would be the pad of the index finger above the first joint.
OP, DA shooting is it’s own animal. If you master it, you will not notice the difference when shooting. It does take more work, but the rewards are there. If I remember correctly from your first post, this CZ has had a Cajun trigger job on it. If so, you are fortunate, and learning from this handgun should be easy.
Good luck
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26Inf makes some great points I agree with. Many people will try and stage the first shot, DONT. I suggest you not slam it, but drives through it steady and fairly quickly. That is what I have found to work for me with my 229 Legion.
Best of luck.
PB
Straight Shooter
05-23-19, 18:03
Make sure you are adding sufficient counter pressure to the frame with the support grip and thumb.
Without seeing your trigger management in person it would be difficult to offer more than that.
Make sure you’re treating the DA pull as a constant smooth manner and not trying to stage it... if you want to provide more specifics I can help further.
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I remember switching from 1911's to my M9..both in & out of service. I did the same as you. Bro- it just takes time..and dry fire and range time...absolute concentration on that first pull. As Sam said..counter pressure to the frame with support hand & thumb..
The same happened in 2005 when I decided to go all Glock..for me, going from one learned weapon to another requires a complete re-learning & period of adjustment. You'll be fine.
Gunnar da Wolf
05-23-19, 18:15
IMHO and I taught thru DA revolvers to DA/SA autos to striker fired autos, use a fifty round box of ammo just firing one round at a precise target. Start slow and work your way up in speed. Then use another box shooting two round drills.
Do this for a few range sessions. Take something else to shoot if it gets boring.
With enough repetitions you may find you are more accurate with the DA round when a precise shot is called for.
DA/SA guns are under appreciated in the Everthing is a Glock Era
ramairthree
05-23-19, 18:45
What is your goal with a DA/SA?
What trigger pull weight and travel length and reset length is your goal?
Classically,
You can’t beat a pure SA trigger.
You have a safety to manipulate.
A DA/SA saves you the safety manipulation, at the cost of a DA shot, and you get near pure SA after that.
Strikers save you the safety manipulation, a DA trigger pull, with better than DA but worse than SA follow ups.
Currently,
People are running around with SA triggers so light I have seen plenty of “misses” at matches that should be DQs because they ND’d firing early on such a light trigger instead of missing.
DA/SAs far lighter and shorter than the intent of a safety
less DA was ever intended for,
And strikers with such short/light aftermarket work and triggers they are essentially like walking around with a cocked 1911 with no safety.
Almost to a point where the weight of the gun/recoil reduction, no safety to manipulate are the edge and not the mechanism.
1. Dry fire DA only (or heavy DA focus) for a while.
2. Dry fire strong hand only until you can pull the trigger with purpose (quickly) without moving the sights (at least keeping the sights in an acceptable hit area). Also, dont pin the trigger, press and instantly let off upon the break (reset) during this dry fire.
3. During #2, try different ways if holding the gun (strong hand only), different finger placement on trigger (probably more than you think), and different “feels “ if pressing trigger (to left, to right, straight back to palm, etc).
Find what works best, then keep experimenting, slowly refining it until you are happy with performance.
Then learn to use SA with the same (shouldnt take much, probably no change).
Note: learning to dry-fire strong hand only will make 2 handed shooting much more accurate/easier ime. All adding the strong hand does is mask issues- which you want when actually shooting.
Thanks for the comments/info . Someone asked what my goal was .... to become a better shooter by learning to shoot fast and accurately with the DA trigger.
In going back over my last range session , I believe I was "staging" the trigger on the first shot because of the longer pull . Someone also mentioned counter pressure from the support hand.... I try to use more pressure with that hand than the other hand ...... but in thinking about it , I may also be applying uneven grip pressure .
A slight "challenge" for me is that my trigger finger has been broken several times at the first joint . If I look at my palm , the finger tip goes to the left at about a 15 degree angle . Just another thing to play with .
I have a dry fire program I came up with and will modify it as my range results dictate . Hope to hit the range tomorrow before the temps get out of the mid 90`s .... weekend is supposed to be low 100`s , and I give up at that point .
MegademiC , I`ll try what you suggested , hopefully tomorrow .
BTW , everyone brought up good points , now I just have to sift through everything and see how to apply it in my case.
If it hadn`t been for that first pull , I would have cleared the Dot Torture last time out ..... and that`s one of my goals .
Thanks
m1a_scoutguy
05-23-19, 23:44
Lots of good info for sure ! I have been shooting my CZ-07 for about 5 years now and really love the gun,heck I love all my CZ pistols ! Dry firing can help but like stated above,getting to the range and running/practicing that 1st shot is king I feel ! Even now after many years I will practice draw's and that 1st shot at least 2 full mag before moving on ! I shoot/de-cock/re-holster/repeat ! Using dummy rds helps also. Anyways plenty has been said and all good tips,but here are a few vids from a guy that knows a thing or two about DA/SA,,worth the watch. Keep us posted on how ya do & enjoy your CZ,I know I do !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZplH6zreQI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nod5qLlSGUM
I didn't read the whole thread. As you practice be aware of a couple things. DA-Front sight, smooth trigger press, SA-sight slack squeeze. Take your time and practice, slow fire to ingrain the practice. Always have your first shot DA followed by sighted fire on the subsequent ones. Of course you need to work on your grip as with any pistol. That double action pull is smooth and pull as if you will be doing it for eternity, don't stage as mentioned. Trick is to start slow on the DA pull, add speed as you go, keeping a steady gun.
With practice, you can run that gun like a rented mule, you just have to put the time in. Back in the day, I made IPSC A class with a Safariland SSIII and a SW 5906, followed by a Sig P226, both stock, my inspiration was an active team guy who was a Grand Master.
If it hadn`t been for that first pull , I would have cleared the Dot Torture last time out ..... and that`s one of my goals .
Thanks
Are you doing TDA Dot Torture, or the standard one?
When is your next live fire session?
When our agency decided to have an issue policy, the selection was the Sig P226 9mm back in the early 90's.
We experienced a lot of shooters 1st DA pull as crotch shots, mostly women. Men were LOW & LEFT. Some old
head said just draw, get rid of the first shot and then aim with the SA shot. That was some of the older 1911 shooters.
I had been to several AUTO Pistol DA/SA classes. Texas DPS had just left revolvers and changed to SIG's.
Adding a Short Reach Trigger helped shooters with smaller hands or shorter fingers. THIS IS NOT the same as SRT, Short Reset Trigger.
When I retired we had changed to Sig's with the DAK FCG.
Pull trigger with finger, not the squeeze of the hand for first round.
The first round, DA, is not a throwaway.
Good Luck and enjoy.
pyrotechnic
05-24-19, 09:31
Someone also mentioned counter pressure from the support hand.... I try to use more pressure with that hand than the other hand ...... but in thinking about it , I may also be applying uneven grip pressure .
I recently picked up a DA/SA gun after shooting Glocks for years. While a solid support hand grip will help mask a poor trigger press make sure your firing grip is starting off at the same strength that you finish with.
I found that I was involuntarily increasing my firing hand grip as I was pressing the DA shot. Start off with a solid firing hand grip so the increase in tension doesn't curl your hand to the left. Hopefully this helps!
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All of my experience has been with the 1911 platform or the striker guns ( M&P 2.0 , PPQ , FN S etc ) .
At a class a while back , Mike Pannone let me hold/dry fire his P07 that was set up by CGW . I`ve steered away from the DA/SA guns because of the long first pull . However , I decided to get one since Mike`s P07 felt good and I wanted to learn that trigger , so I picked up a CZ P01 a while back and had Cajun Gun Works set it up .
Love the gun ... fits me , easy to conceal , reliable and in SA mode , almost like my 1911`s . My problem is that I pull my first shot ( DA ) low and to the left a lot . I`ve experimented with grip , done lots of dry fire , but when I hit the range , the old DA monster gets me . Transition to the SA seems to be no problem , just the first shot.
You guys that use a DA/SA action have any suggestions or comments ? Yes, I`m know I`m asking for help on something you haven`t seen me shoot , but looking for possible areas to watch/work on .
For myself, I like a consistent trigger pull, be id SA or DA. I really disliked DA/SA pistols, and as there's no lack of quality pistols to choose from that are not DA/SA, I chose not to own one. With enough practice, not doubt you get used to the DA/SA trigger, but I'm not a fan. Your mileage may vary.
Plenty of great advice in this thread!
m1a scoutguy .... thanks for the videos and I have already planned to do nothing at my next range session for the first box , but draw with the gun de-cocked , fire, de-cock , holster and repeat.
We also have some steel at 30 to 50 yards I can practice on .
1186 ... was using the 50 round dot torture , but will now add the TDA into my training .
Hand squeeze was also brought up and in dry firing last night , I found I was tightening my grip on my firing hand as I pressed the trigger . Thanks , looks like nothing here I can`t overcome with lots of practice . If I can "master" the DA/SA trigger , should make me a much better shooter overall .... which is my goal .
Actually as frustrating and humbling as this has been , it`s also been fun learning and analyzing my shortcomings .
As others have said, practicing your draw and firing one shot helps a lot. For me it was mostly a mental thing. I kept thinking I would shoot low left and did almost every time. After an old timer told me to just clear my head and shoot I improved drastically.
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I carried a Model 39, a Model 439, then a Model 6904 for years. Bury your trigger finger up to or past the first distal joint for the first shot, then move your trigger finger out to a comfortable single action position for the follow up shots. The transition from DA shot to SA shot takes a minimal amount of time if you train long enough and hard enough. I prefer a single trigger weight for carrying in the field and training new shooters.
I disagree with DA/SA being safer than a single trigger weight handgun. We had a lot more documented negligent discharges with the DA/SA pistols than with the Glocks. We taught correct trigger and muzzle discipline when we transitioned to Glock pistols, which was not emphasized enough with DA/SA pistols. I, and a lot of other instructors at my agency, did not believe that the DA/SA trigger was a substitute for good training.
m1a_scoutguy
05-24-19, 21:17
m1a scoutguy .... thanks for the videos and I have already planned to do nothing at my next range session for the first box , but draw with the gun de-cocked , fire, de-cock , holster and repeat.
We also have some steel at 30 to 50 yards I can practice on .
1186 ... was using the 50 round dot torture , but will now add the TDA into my training .
Hand squeeze was also brought up and in dry firing last night , I found I was tightening my grip on my firing hand as I pressed the trigger . Thanks , looks like nothing here I can`t overcome with lots of practice . If I can "master" the DA/SA trigger , should make me a much better shooter overall .... which is my goal .
Actually as frustrating and humbling as this has been , it`s also been fun learning and analyzing my shortcomings .
Biggest thing is "don't" worry about being FAST !!! Speed will come as time moves on. Yes I do have a shot timer but NEVER use it when I'm practicing my draws, at least not till the end of the sessions, just practice on doing everything right and the speed will come as you go. Yes the Langdon vids are awesome with some quality tips from a Master that has put many many rds. down range with a DA/SA pistol. I have many shooting buddies that run Glocks & other striker guns that constantly bust my chops about my CZs and the two trigger pulls, the same pull is nice but for ME there are lots of positives on the 07 in comfort/grip/point ability/etc, that are worth the trade off and in many circles there not considered trade offs, as stated YMMV ! Anyways welcome to the club,,,enjoy and keep practicing and keep us posted for sure !
Great thread! Good info all the way around.
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My CZ pistols wear an adjustable red dot RMR, I turned the dot down as low as I could and dry fire in double action straight pull through with the goal of keeping the tiny red dot on the front sight.
Practice makes perfect
halfmoonclip
05-26-19, 20:36
The double/single action was developed as a means of having a gun ready to shoot as soon as presented, presumably without wiping off a safety, early in the last century.
There have been other, different, approaches to 'instant availability', everything from squeeze cocking HKs, to double action only. to striker only, to Col. Cooper's 1911.
Personally, if I want to shoot double action, I pick up a Centennial. Every shot the same.
My concern with the double/single setup isn't on range presentations. It's when the poop hits the airmover, personally, I'd hate to make the transition from double to single in the heat of the instant. Double action is great for administrative handling (pointing a gun at prisoners, for instance), not so much for actual shooting, and then shooting again.
I suspect this is no small part of the military's change to the M17...not all soldiers are gun enthusiasts (nor are cops), and keeping things simple has merit.
Not new news, and worth every penny paid for it.
Moon
It's when the poop hits the airmover, personally, I'd hate to make the transition from double to single in the heat of the instant.
I suspect this is no small part of the military's change to the M17...not all soldiers are gun enthusiasts (nor are cops), and keeping things simple has merit.
Transition is a non-issue, learning DA shot is. Once you know how to pull the DA shot, it is done with. I don't know anyone who has invested in DA/SA and who's giving a nanosecond of a thought to a "transition". Trigger gives your finger a feedback, finger does what it needs. The transition from first to second shot with a DA/SA gun is no different than with a striker etc. It is all about not screwing the DA part.
The M17 is an interesting point. I am waiting to see what objective reports will be. The reason people didn't like M9 was 20 lbs hammer spring that gave 12 lbs DA pull. SA was around 5-6, with a relatively heavy gun. What I hear of M17, it is a polymer gun with 7.5 lbs striker trigger. I personally would take 12/5 lbs DA/SA trigger metal gun over 7 lbs trigger poly striker gun for shooting performance even if the first shot would suck. We'll see.
halfmoonclip
05-27-19, 11:49
Hey, if you're invested in the DA/SA system, and happy with it, go in peace, serve the Lord.
For me, (and I can shoot double action, love and carry DAO Centennials), I'm doubtful that, in the middle of an adrenaline dump, I'd be able to make that transition. Strongly suspect that the second shot might not be intentional.
I'm trying to allow for my own human nature, and don't see myself as Harry Calihan, munching a hotdog while popping bad guys. ;). As I said, YMMV.
Yeah, the M9 has a long trigger stroke, and I, too, am anxious to see how the M17 performs in the hands of the troops. If I was a betting man, I'd bet they're being trained to carry Condition 3, empty chamber. What they actually do when in danger is another matter.
Moon
Hey, if you're invested in the DA/SA system, and happy with it, go in peace, serve the Lord.
For me, (and I can shoot double action, love and carry DAO Centennials), I'm doubtful that, in the middle of an adrenaline dump, I'd be able to make that transition. Strongly suspect that the second shot might not be intentional.
I'm trying to allow for my own human nature, and don't see myself as Harry Calihan, munching a hotdog while popping bad guys. ;). As I said, YMMV.
Yeah, the M9 has a long trigger stroke, and I, too, am anxious to see how the M17 performs in the hands of the troops. If I was a betting man, I'd bet they're being trained to carry Condition 3, empty chamber. What they actually do when in danger is another matter.
Moon
I was running our state academy's firearms program when the mass transition from revolvers to DA/SA pistols occurred. We put together a 2.5 day transition course and trained bunches of shooters at the Academy and on the road.
Generally, good revolver shooters became better pistol shooters; in most cases below average revolver shooters became at least average pistol shots.
We stressed staying in contact with the trigger and the reset. It wasn't rocket science.
Thanks for the comments/info . Someone asked what my goal was .... to become a better shooter by learning to shoot fast and accurately with the DA trigger.
In going back over my last range session , I believe I was "staging" the trigger on the first shot because of the longer pull . Someone also mentioned counter pressure from the support hand.... I try to use more pressure with that hand than the other hand ...... but in thinking about it , I may also be applying uneven grip pressure .
A slight "challenge" for me is that my trigger finger has been broken several times at the first joint . If I look at my palm , the finger tip goes to the left at about a 15 degree angle . Just another thing to play with .
I have a dry fire program I came up with and will modify it as my range results dictate . Hope to hit the range tomorrow before the temps get out of the mid 90`s .... weekend is supposed to be low 100`s , and I give up at that point .
MegademiC , I`ll try what you suggested , hopefully tomorrow .
BTW , everyone brought up good points , now I just have to sift through everything and see how to apply it in my case.
If it hadn`t been for that first pull , I would have cleared the Dot Torture last time out ..... and that`s one of my goals .
Thanks
Staging is generally bad. You can change the speed of the press if you need time to refine sight picture, but stopping part part way through and starting again usually results in less accuracy in my experience.
halfmoonclip
05-27-19, 17:03
Concur on 'staging'. Sometimes, for really (I mean really) deliberate fire, squeezing off the last bit of travel might have some merit...say, you're shooting for group.
Any other time, rolling straight thru' is a far better plan, and results in consistently better shooting. When push comes to shove, rolling thru' is the way to go.
Moon
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