View Full Version : moved to training and tactics*****What's the "service" life of a magazine?
I know the life of a magazine will vary greatly depending on how it's treated but I assume there has to be some mil requirement as to the performance of a magazine.
Assuming a well treated magazine, will it function for 5000 rnds, 10000 rnds, ...
SB
I don't know if there's any published data on service life in regards to cycles, etc.
Alot of it depends on the quality of materials and the environment/use and/or abuse it's subjected to.
I have three G17 mags that easily have 60k or so through them, work 100%.
AR mags, been using Pmags, about 10k through 5 and then a collection of old GI's that between the 10-15, somewhere over a buttload.
Life has been tuff for them, sand, gravel, concrete, etc
....
Alot of it depends on the quality of materials and the environment/use and/or abuse it's subjected to.....
Dropping mags on the ground is a major contributing factor to failure.
Also, slamming them forcefully into the gun Hollywood style is a no-no.
Take care of them and keep them clean, and they should last a long time.
The only ones I've ever had fail are the USGI AR-15 mags. They cracked
at the top rear near the feed lips. I have no idea how many rounds were
thru them, but it was a lot.
Silly as it sounds, I still use magazines in my personal ARs that I was given in 1992 by a former Ranger who carried them in Vietnam. Only one of the six didn't work, and it would be an easy fix if I hadn't stuffed it away somewhere so many years ago. I have quite a few rounds through them, and no telling how many he put through them in the time he owned them. My newer magazines I probably put 25,000 rounds/year through at work without problems. I'm real impressed lately with the Brownell's magazines with the Magpul upgrades. I think they will have real staying power in my kit. Just stay away from the HK steel mags!
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:20
Dropping mags on the ground is a major contributing factor to failure.
Also, slamming them forcefully into the gun Hollywood style is a no-no.
Take care of them and keep them clean, and they should last a long time.
The only ones I've ever had fail are the USGI AR-15 mags. They cracked
at the top rear near the feed lips. I have no idea how many rounds were
thru them, but it was a lot.
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:22
Silly as it sounds, I still use magazines in my personal ARs that I was given in 1992 by a former Ranger who carried them in Vietnam. Only one of the six didn't work, and it would be an easy fix if I hadn't stuffed it away somewhere so many years ago. I have quite a few rounds through them, and no telling how many he put through them in the time he owned them. My newer magazines I probably put 25,000 rounds/year through at work without problems. I'm real impressed lately with the Brownell's magazines with the Magpul upgrades. I think they will have real staying power in my kit. Just stay away from the HK steel mags!
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 00:30
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
I guess "push/pull" doesn't work in Alaska.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:42
I guess "push/pull" doesn't work in Alaska.
Please go back and read by post before posting next time. You will see I mentioned pushing the mag in hard (push) and pulling down on it to make sure its seated (pull). It must be late and you must have missed that part of my post. I have been a firearms instructor for more than 6 years now and the most common human induced malfunction I have seen cops make on the line is failure to seat the magazine.
Pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 00:49
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
You wrote "slam" - not "push." Two different concepts.
Yes, I know you are a firearms instructor because you say that a lot in defense of many concepts that you post about and get called on.
And don't talk down your nose to me.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:53
You wrote "slam" - not "push." Two different concepts.
Yes, I know you are a firearms instructor because you say that a lot in defense of many concepts that you post about and get called on.
And don't talk down your nose to me.
Well its not a gentle push. It is more of a slam. Yes I am a firearms instructor. What do you do for a living?
Pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 00:57
Read my bio.
You should contact Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers so you can inform them that they're doing it wrong.
BTW, slamming the bottom of an AR magazine can cause rounds to jump out the top of the magazine, sometimes dramatically so ("like a volcano").
Since we're talking about magazine serviceability, any body know the answers to these questions?
1. Aluminum mag body/feed lip thickness
2. cproducts steel, british steel, singapore steel, and HK steel mag body/feed lip thickness
3. thermold, Pmag, lancaster feed lip thickness
I have some cproduct SS mags that look awfully thin, like I could bend them with my fingers.
BTW, is it possible to bend good quality alum./steel feed lips with your fingers? I'd rather not try. :D
IrishDevil
11-16-08, 01:03
I believe the whole "slam" to seat the mag comes from loading 30rds. With a GI mag loaded to 28 it only takes a firm push/pull. Even though they're designed for 30rds, I download PMAG's. It takes longer to "slam" mags than it does to push/pull, same goes for slapping the bolt release.
In my experience slamming a magazine into the magazine well, will cause rounds to pop loose (especially in worn GI mags) and will then usually cause a failure to chamber. When most mags to include H/K steel mags are loaded to 28 rounds seating them is usually not an issue even when the bolt is forward. With PMAG's 30 rounds hasn't been an issue either.
my caliper reads .0655 on pmags. all my GI mags are boxed up, and i don't have any other kind for ARs.
i suppose if you really pressed on the ****ers they might bend, but not without real effort, if at all. i'd say the answer is "no."
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 01:31
Read my bio.
You should contact Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers so you can inform them that they're doing it wrong.
BTW, slamming the bottom of an AR magazine can cause rounds to jump out the top of the magazine, sometimes dramatically so ("like a volcano").
Forgive me I should have used the words firmly push in rather than slam.
Pat
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
pat
I've seen PMAGs crack in extreme cold, but always under conditions that would also render a USGI mag inoperable. I hope to have a cold chamber in hand very soon to conduct more thorough first-hand testing.
Since we're getting to that time again, PM me your address and I'll send you a few mags to play with this winter. My primary concern is how it functions at those temperatures. Everything has its breaking point - if that so happens to be a -50 degree fully loaded 5 foot drop test on the feed lips, that circumstance may just be rare enough to be inconsequential.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 01:33
In my experience slamming a magazine into the magazine well, will cause rounds to pop loose (especially in worn GI mags) and will then usually cause a failure to chamber. When most mags to include H/K steel mags are loaded to 28 rounds seating them is usually not an issue even when the bolt is forward. With PMAG's 30 rounds hasn't been an issue either.
I download all my 30 round mags to 28 even the P mags. Just the way I was trained. I have had the malfunction you state happen with my AR10 and it happens pretty much every time unless I gently insert the mag. I always attributed the problem to faulty mag design by Armalite (M14 mags reworked to be AR10 mags) rather than a technique error.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 01:42
I believe the whole "slam" to seat the mag comes from loading 30rds. With a GI mag loaded to 28 it only takes a firm push/pull. Even though they're designed for 30rds, I download PMAG's. It takes longer to "slam" mags than it does to push/pull, same goes for slapping the bolt release.
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
I agree with the AR-10 mag assessment. We have them here and they are a PITA. As for downloading the PMAG's to 28 rds. That is how I was trained also until I started using them. There just isn't a need and I like the extra 2o rds. that it gives me by not doing it.
I download all my 30 round mags to 28 even the P mags. Just the way I was trained. I have had the malfunction you state happen with my AR10 and it happens pretty much every time unless I gently insert the mag. I always attributed the problem to faulty mag design by Armalite (M14 mags reworked to be AR10 mags) rather than a technique error.
Pat
I assume that you are talking about a reload when the bolt is locked to the rear? If so, another method is the simply grasp the charging handle and let it fly forward.
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
I assume that you are talking about a reload when the bolt is locked to the rear? If so, another method is the simply grasp the charging handle and let it fly forward.
ack.. charging it just gets you all tangled up in your gun
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 02:14
I assume that you are talking about a reload when the bolt is locked to the rear? If so, another method is the simply grasp the charging handle and let it fly forward.
I have found that using the charging handle does not always work with dirty guns. It seems that running the charging handle puts drag on the bolt carrier and if the gun is fairly dirty after a long day of training it does not always go into battery. Have you ever noticed this? Anyway talk to you guys later. I have to wake up and drive to a IDPA match in 6 hours.
Pat
To be honest I have never seen that happen. But, it is not my PREFERRED method only an alternative method. I have had zero issues hitting my bolt release in high stress situations.
I have found that using the charging handle does not always work with dirty guns. It seems that running the charging handle puts drag on the bolt carrier and if the gun is fairly dirty after a long day of training it does not always go into battery. Have you ever noticed this? Anyway talk to you guys later. I have to wake up and drive to a IDPA match in 6 hours.
Pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 04:15
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
Press the bolt release with your support side thumb.
We disagree again with the "fine motor skills" thing. Aren't pressing the trigger, manipulating the safety and performing a tac relaod all examples of fine motor skills?
But this discussion is now off-topic from the service life of a magazine.
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
pat
The problem I/we were having with the steel mags is when you drop them they bend and stay bent rather than pop back like aluminum. I don't use the trendy P Mags because our R&D section tested them and under high volumes of fire common to our pre-deployment training, the feed lips were melting and warping. I figure I'll stick with good old aluminum magazines with upgraded springs and followers and call it a day. They work in all temperatures, they work in all environments, and they're relatively cheap, even if they aren't the flavor of the month.
Cagemonkey
11-16-08, 08:56
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
patI got some HK steel mags and they work fine. Don't leave them loaded for a long time (even down loaded), the spring weakened and the mag wouldn't lock my bolt. GI mags with magpul upgrades are good to go. I just ordered some Lancer mags. I like the idea of the steel feed lips. Seems to work for Glocks and AK poly mags.
Springs do not weaken from leaving them loaded. Springs weaken due to the compression and decompression of the spring which eventually causes them to lose elasticity. If the spring was weak it is because they were crappy or had been used alot.
I got some HK steel mags and they work fine. Don't leave them loaded for a long time (even down loaded), the spring weakened and the mag wouldn't lock my bolt. GI mags with magpul upgrades are good to go. I just ordered some Lancer mags. I like the idea of the steel feed lips. Seems to work for Glocks and AK poly mags.
Have you guys informed MAGPUL about this? IIRC they did testing as well and I don't believe that this issue was brought up. I could be wrong of course. On the other hand I wouldn't just be concerned about the mags at that point I would be concerned about the weapon as whole.
The problem I/we were having with the steel mags is when you drop them they bend and stay bent rather than pop back like aluminum. I don't use the trendy P Mags because our R&D section tested them and under high volumes of fire common to our pre-deployment training, the feed lips were melting and warping. I figure I'll stick with good old aluminum magazines with upgraded springs and followers and call it a day. They work in all temperatures, they work in all environments, and they're relatively cheap, even if they aren't the flavor of the month.
You wrote "slam" - not "push." Two different concepts.
Yes, I know you are a firearms instructor because you say that a lot in defense of many concepts that you post about and get called on.
And don't talk down your nose to me.
Listen, you're supposed to slam them as hard as you can. Didn't you watch Magnum PI? Oh, if you want to know my credentials...I'm an electrician, who used to watch Magnum PI reruns because I was under 10 and normally in bed when it originally aired on Thursdays at 7:30 Pacific Time.
:)
I know the life of a magazine will vary greatly depending on how it's treated but I assume there has to be some mil requirement as to the performance of a magazine.
Assuming a well treated magazine, will it function for 5000 rnds, 10000 rnds, ...
SB
The Military ASSUMED that the GI Alum mag would be used 1 time and then tossed (on an emergency reload).
People are now hoarding mags like never before and the alum. mags just were not meant for extended use.
Generally the first thing to go on the mag is the spring. Since the cheapest possible spring is used (and only has about 10% of its life left when new). Next will be the feed lips (cracking and or spreading).
The two best things you can do for a GI mag is put in a quality spring (Like ISMI) and a Magpul follower.
C4
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
This is a negative. Slamming a mag into the weapon is sure way to cause a malfunction and or cause damage to the magazine.
Insert the mag (without letting it ever leave your hand) and then pull down to make it is locked in place.
C4
Well its not a gentle push. It is more of a slam. Yes I am a firearms instructor. What do you do for a living?
Pat
Police firearms instructors can be some of the VERY worst for informationl. They believe that because they have a "title" that they instantly know everything. This would be incorrect.
I would suggest seeking out training from the likes of Vickers or Hackathorn (to name a few).
C4
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
"Slapping" the bolt release is a no go as well. It is VERY easy to miss the tiny button with the palm of your hand. This is why quality instructors teach the use of your thumb to release the bolt. Since the gentlemen teaching this technique have all seen combat at the highest level, I believe they know what they are talking about.
C4
To be honest I have never seen that happen. But, it is not my PREFERRED method only an alternative method. I have had zero issues hitting my bolt release in high stress situations.
Using the CH to release is of course an alternative to using the bolt release, but I would view it as my second option strictly for the fact that it is easy to "ride the bolt" and not allow the power of the buffer spring to drive the BCG home.
C4
Grant,
I agree and that is why I made my statement. I was expecting to get "sniped at" for not having an alternative. :D. As you have stated those in the know who have BTDT know that utilizing the bolt release properly is a non-issue.
I won't say anything more or else I may be labeled a "meanie".
Using the CH to release is of course an alternative to using the bolt release, but I would view it as my second option strictly for the fact that it is easy to "ride the bolt" and not allow the power of the buffer spring to drive the BCG home.
C4
Grant,
I agree and that is why I made my statement. I was expecting to get "sniped at" for not having an alternative. :D. As you have stated those in the know who have BTDT know that utilizing the bolt release properly is a non-issue.
I won't say anything more or else I may be labeled a "meanie".
Its good to play bad guy once in awhile so have at it. ;)
C4
While this may not directly give an overall average of the service-life of a magazine, it does give an indirect indication.
John Farnam's website quotes an anonymous worker at a factory test-range, where they fire "hundreds of thousands" of rounds each year, presumably all from AR15-type rifles.
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/25Jan08.html
"Even well-made aluminum magazines eventually flair-out at the top. At that point, they become scrap metal!
Our preference is stainless-steel magazines! Our favorite manufacturer is C-Products (_www.cproductsllc.com_ (http://www.cproductsllc.com) ). A steel magazine will last many times longer than those made of aluminum or plastic. Indeed, most plastic magazines split at the back (near the notch for the bolt hold-open) within five-thousand rounds.
Magpul claims their new plastic magazine adequately addresses all these issues. I sincerely hope they're right!"
~~~~~
Clearly, there are some issues here. Some users have had QC problems with C-Products magazines, so the above is only valid regarding a reliable C-Prod mag.
Given the above claim that "most" non-Magpul plastic mags fail within 5k, it MAY be safe to say that a good aluminum mag would last at least as long as that, maybe more, according to this anonymous source.
Sorry that no clear number has been given, but at least the anonymous source uses magazines to failure and probably does not abuse them.
Please do not interpret my post to indicate that C-Products mags are superior, nor do I endorse them. I'm simply relaying information that comes from a source which seems to have relevant experience and seems to be reliable. If one desires specific averages regarding the service life of non-abused magazines, it may be possible to call one of the big manufacturers and ask somebody at the test-fire facility.
Cagemonkey
11-16-08, 12:40
As an Armorer in the Marines back in 89-93 I used to have to post an armory guard at the end of duty each day. MC orders specified that the guard be issued two fully loaded 30rd mags. It was not uncommon for magazines to bulge and become difficult to remove and insert into the M16A2. Worst yet, it wasn't uncommon for the mag to literally explode while the guard was standing duty. With a base plate, spring/follower and cartridges getting scattered about. Leaving some poor Lcpl crawling on his hands and knees at we hours in the morning searching for all 30 rnds. We all know that loading 27/28 rnds. per mag would have made more sense, but orders are orders.
bkb0000 says the Pmag (I assume the lips) measure 0.0655 inches, which translate into 1.66mm
Why couldn't a steel magazine be made from a 1.5mm+ thick sheet of steel? Then heat treat it for hardening and there you go, one bad ass, reliable STANAG magazine. No worrying about lips flaring out, bending them as they drop to the ground, etc.
I guess "push/pull" doesn't work in Alaska.
Everything's tougher in Alaska! :p
Cagemonkey
11-16-08, 18:22
I got some Lancer mags on the way. They have steel feed lips molded in the plastic body of the magazine.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 22:56
I got some HK steel mags and they work fine. Don't leave them loaded for a long time (even down loaded), the spring weakened and the mag wouldn't lock my bolt. GI mags with magpul upgrades are good to go. I just ordered some Lancer mags. I like the idea of the steel feed lips. Seems to work for Glocks and AK poly mags.
The magazine in my patrol rifle and the spare on my duty belt have been loaded for the last 3 years except when i am shooting them and I have not had problems. I do download to 28. I also like P Mags and GI mags and I have a few Lancer and they work fine too.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/magcollection.jpg
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 23:03
Press the bolt release with your support side thumb.
We disagree again with the "fine motor skills" thing. Aren't pressing the trigger, manipulating the safety and performing a tac relaod all examples of fine motor skills?
But this discussion is now off-topic from the service life of a magazine.
I sent you a PM on the subject. Take care. One thing I do know is most schools are moving away from doing tactical reloads. They are not realistic under real life stress conditions. I have reviewed my share of shootings in training and I have yet to see one where a tactical reload was even used much less made a difference. Slide lock reloads and speed reloads are what are important.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 23:11
"Slapping" the bolt release is a no go as well. It is VERY easy to miss the tiny button with the palm of your hand. This is why quality instructors teach the use of your thumb to release the bolt. Since the gentlemen teaching this technique have all seen combat at the highest level, I believe they know what they are talking about.
C4
Grant even if you miss the tiny button 999 times out of 1000 the bolt still gets released by inertia and the reload goes just fine. I have never seen this technique fail in training. Try it some time. Lock the bolt back then hit the side of the reciever purposely missing the bolt release. As long as you have more strength than a typical 12 year old girl it will work just fine. My firearms instructors were also gun fight winners. One being Jeff Hall a former Vietnam Vet and a former Alaska State Trooper. He is currently a NRA Law Enforcement Instructor. We have different tiers of AR15's on a chart I have yet to see a chart rating instructors quality. As for combat there are no levels. If someone is trying to kill you its all pretty much the same and its not fun. Their are many right ways to do something and only a few wrong ones. Techniques are just tools in the tool box.
Pat
platinumdude
11-16-08, 23:36
So the old SPORTS is not true then?
SPORTS Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot
No Slapping. insert firmly, then pull? But tapping is still required right?
moved to training and tactics
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