View Full Version : The Etiquette of Ordering Firearms Online
Doc Safari
05-30-19, 11:45
Obviously if you don't possess an FFL yourself you have to arrange to have a firearm shipped to a dealer to do the NICS check and give you the okey-dokey, usually with a fee, of course.
I've maybe ordered a firearm online and had it shipped to one of two LGS's as many as five times in three years. At first I checked with each LGS in advance and got the okay from them before doing it. The last time I did this was in January or February.
This last time, though, I assumed it was okay due to previous experiences and ordered one of the S&W Shields from Palmetto State Armory and had it shipped without giving the LGS advance notice.
Holy Hurt Butt!
The reception I got was, to say the least, palpably frosty. True, the dealer had a Shield 2.0 in his display case for around $450 and probably would have preferred to sell me that one, but the one I ordered was a Gen 1. Not the same thing. I pointed that fact out to him and got a lecture on how he was against online ordering, and we should all support the local guy. He said it wasn't fair he couldn't touch that $249.95 price tag. I agreed, but said, "Couldn't you order some of these for your inventory and just mark them up $50-100? You'd still save on shipping by ordering several and you'd still make a profit. Heck, if you had one for $300 I'd have probably just bought it and avoided the hassle of having to wait. It would have been almost the same as what I did with your transfer fee."
He mumbled some excuse as to why PSA wouldn't give him the same deal, and I insisted, "I'd bet your credit card spends just as fast as mine. I don't see why they wouldn't send you a dozen of these at the same price just because you're an FFL." He insisted that wasn't the case and I didn't press the issue.
What shocked me was the sudden cold shoulder for ordering online and paying the local guy his fee to pick it up. Outlets like Davidson's openly advertise this practice, and I've ordered from Impact Guns, Palmetto State Armory, and a Gunsamerica vendor and never got so much as an unfriendly look from the local guy--until this time.
Is there such a slump in the gun industry that local retailers are feeling the pain and aren't so friendly toward not making a couple hundred bucks profit on a single gun?
Like I said, I've done this four or five times in the last three years and this is the first time I can remember getting a lecture and a cold shoulder for having done it.
I certainly don't think I'll have anything else shipped to that dealer. He's kind of out of my way anyway and he may not see any more of my business, period. I'm guessing this particular dealer just suddenly has a bug up his ass for online ordering, but I thought I'd put out the feelers and see if anyone else is getting this kind of reception.
Anybody else experiencing this?
eightmillimeter
05-30-19, 12:22
As an FFL I will say this.
If we sign up to be on PSA’s website we have to agree to take any shipments, same with Buds, Brownells, etc. It’s the name of the game.
You do support the local guy by paying a transfer fee, if not, then his fee isn’t high enough. My customers actually have told me before when I need to kick it up a few bucks.
I appreciate the heads up, but I don’t expect them.
He should know a 1.0 and 2.0 aren’t the same gun.
I have ordered inventory for resale at PSA retail pricing when they are significantly below wholesale, for instance when they were selling M&P full size for $350 I stocked up, because they normally cost me $425 each.
Sorry you were treated that way. Retail will die if they don’t adapt fast to e commerce.... gun stores are no different.
I’m waiting for the day FFLs just set up a kiosk-type store front and only do transfers.
They encourage online sales and are willing to help the customer find and order one from a retailer for a small fee on top of the transfer price. The local FFLs can compete for whatever that transfer price should be.
I’m sure someone will come along and say this isn’t a true dealer. The days of small businesses holding small-margin mass-produced inventory are ending.
The guy I have used for most of my transfers runs a hardware store but apparently does the FFL transfer thing as just a side gig or something. He doesn't maintain any inventory of guns in stock, so couldn't care less about how cheap I got something off of CDNN or wherever. I'm also a regular there for non-gun purchases, which probably helps.
I usually check with him beforehand, just as a courtesy (although when I had to jump on a killer deal that I stumbled on quickly, a couple times I did order first then "ask" him at the earliest opportunity). Then when the item arrives I show up, he does the NICS then I just pay the cashier up front $25 on my way out the door.
He was out for several months due to knee surgery back last winter, so when Brownells had a blem Retro lower sale I grabbed one and had it sent to another shop I also frequent. The guy was fine with it, although the fact Retro lowers aren't something he normally stocks might or might not have had something to do with it, because I have heard of shops being resistant to doing a transfer on something you bought online but they have in the display case for $300 more.
Adrenaline_6
05-30-19, 13:03
I don't get this. He made money off of you for doing nothing other than fill out a form and lost no inventory. It's not like you were going to buy the gun from him anyway. Some money vs. no money - the choice should be obvious.
Obviously if you don't possess an FFL yourself you have to arrange to have a firearm shipped to a dealer to do the NICS check and give you the okey-dokey, usually with a fee, of course.
I've maybe ordered a firearm online and had it shipped to one of two LGS's as many as five times in three years. At first I checked with each LGS in advance and got the okay from them before doing it. The last time I did this was in January or February.
This last time, though, I assumed it was okay due to previous experiences and ordered one of the S&W Shields from Palmetto State Armory and had it shipped without giving the LGS advance notice.
Holy Hurt Butt!
The reception I got was, to say the least, palpably frosty. True, the dealer had a Shield 2.0 in his display case for around $450 and probably would have preferred to sell me that one, but the one I ordered was a Gen 1. Not the same thing. I pointed that fact out to him and got a lecture on how he was against online ordering, and we should all support the local guy. He said it wasn't fair he couldn't touch that $249.95 price tag. I agreed, but said, "Couldn't you order some of these for your inventory and just mark them up $50-100? You'd still save on shipping by ordering several and you'd still make a profit. Heck, if you had one for $300 I'd have probably just bought it and avoided the hassle of having to wait. It would have been almost the same as what I did with your transfer fee."
He mumbled some excuse as to why PSA wouldn't give him the same deal, and I insisted, "I'd bet your credit card spends just as fast as mine. I don't see why they wouldn't send you a dozen of these at the same price just because you're an FFL." He insisted that wasn't the case and I didn't press the issue.
What shocked me was the sudden cold shoulder for ordering online and paying the local guy his fee to pick it up. Outlets like Davidson's openly advertise this practice, and I've ordered from Impact Guns, Palmetto State Armory, and a Gunsamerica vendor and never got so much as an unfriendly look from the local guy--until this time.
Is there such a slump in the gun industry that local retailers are feeling the pain and aren't so friendly toward not making a couple hundred bucks profit on a single gun?
Like I said, I've done this four or five times in the last three years and this is the first time I can remember getting a lecture and a cold shoulder for having done it.
I certainly don't think I'll have anything else shipped to that dealer. He's kind of out of my way anyway and he may not see any more of my business, period. I'm guessing this particular dealer just suddenly has a bug up his ass for online ordering, but I thought I'd put out the feelers and see if anyone else is getting this kind of reception.
Anybody else experiencing this?
I'd find another lGS/FFL that isn't a retard.
If he isn't making money off of a transfer he is retarded and should change his fee.
If he doesn't want to make money for doing essentially nothing other than accepting a form filled out by you, doing the NICS check and faxing his FFL license to another gun shop, he is a retard.
Doc Safari
05-30-19, 13:14
I don't get this. He made money off of you for doing nothing other than fill out a form and lost no inventory. It's not like you were going to buy the gun from him anyway. Some money vs. no money - the choice should be obvious.
This is my attitude. In the past when I've done this I've turned dealers on to firearms they didn't know they'd sell and my actions prompted them to carry what I ordered in inventory.
Glad to hear the responses I'm getting. I won't use that dealer again.
I’m waiting for the day FFLs just set up a kiosk-type store front and only do transfers.
Many do. Maybe not kiosk based, but xfer only, no retail.
For OP, it seems your LGS does not really want to be in the xfer business, they only do it when they have nothing to sell. I would get a new LGS.
I’m waiting for the day FFLs just set up a kiosk-type store front and only do transfers.
They encourage online sales and are willing to help the customer find and order one from a retailer for a small fee on top of the transfer price. The local FFLs can compete for whatever that transfer price should be.
I’m sure someone will come along and say this isn’t a true dealer. The days of small businesses holding small-margin mass-produced inventory are ending. I'm there already. I run it as a business, as required by the ATF, out of my retail store. I don't need a pile of expensive low margin product taking up space that I can fill with higher margin product that doesn't require any expertise to sell. I do special orders through Davidson's, Aero and a couple other places, but those are infrequent.
The guy I have used for most of my transfers runs a hardware store but apparently does the FFL transfer thing as just a side gig or something. He doesn't maintain any inventory of guns in stock, so couldn't care less about how cheap I got something off of CDNN or wherever. I'm also a regular there for non-gun purchases, which probably helps.
I usually check with him beforehand, just as a courtesy (although when I had to jump on a killer deal that I stumbled on quickly, a couple times I did order first then "ask" him at the earliest opportunity). Then when the item arrives I show up, he does the NICS then I just pay the cashier up front $25 on my way out the door.
He was out for several months due to knee surgery back last winter, so when Brownells had a blem Retro lower sale I grabbed one and had it sent to another shop I also frequent. The guy was fine with it, although the fact Retro lowers aren't something he normally stocks might or might not have had something to do with it, because I have heard of shops being resistant to doing a transfer on something you bought online but they have in the display case for $300 more.
For a minute I thought you were talking about me :smile: I'm a hardware store as well.
sundance435
05-30-19, 13:25
I'm seeing this attitude more and more. I have 2 FFLs, the only 2 (in my state for handguns), within 45 miles of me. Neither of them will receive a shipment from a non-FFL, which is annoying. Despite that, I still use the one for transfers or new purchases. His prices are usually close to or better than anything I can find online for new, anyway, but if it's within $20-30 of online, I give him the business. He's never complained really about transfers, he just asks that I check with him first on a price if it's something new, which is only fair. However, the other FFL has started hassling customers about ordering online and doing the transfer through him. Mind you, his transfer fee is $30, whereas the guy I normally use is $15 for long guns/$20 for handguns (my state has a $5 background check included in that). This same dealer would have had your Shield 1.0 at $425+, despite him being able to order it from a distributor for $275. No way I'm paying $100+ more for something like that. I don't want to lose another FFL, but that guy is doing everything he can to ruin his business and I can't say I'll be sorry to see him go.
I'm seeing more and more dealers around here go the "no transfers from non-FFL" route and that has become a huge pain. As long as he has a DL/CCL beforehand and with the shipment, I honestly can't think of a legitimate legal reason for it, other than perhaps a very slim chance of civil liability. It's not an ATF rule.
I really miss the days of my truly "local" FFL whose shop was next to his house, would bend over backwards for a transfer, and give you first dibs on stuff that came in he knew you would like...the good old days.
I can understand the “competing with the local FFLs inventory stock” but as others have said, he isn’t out any money or loss from his inventory. I would find someone else with an FFL.
Doc Safari
05-30-19, 13:36
I can understand the “competing with the local FFLs inventory stock” but as others have said, he isn’t out any money or loss from his inventory. I would find someone else with an FFL.
Yeah, I'm done with that guy.
Just for shits and giggles I called the other FFL I've used occasionally for online orders.
I described the situation to him.
Know what he said?
"So and so dealer on the other side of town has been ordering those Shields from Palmetto State Armory for months and marking them up 50 bucks. I can't even do that with my overhead."
Obviously if you don't possess an FFL yourself you have to arrange to have a firearm shipped to a dealer to do the NICS check and give you the okey-dokey, usually with a fee, of course.
I've maybe ordered a firearm online and had it shipped to one of two LGS's as many as five times in three years. At first I checked with each LGS in advance and got the okay from them before doing it. The last time I did this was in January or February.
This last time, though, I assumed it was okay due to previous experiences and ordered one of the S&W Shields from Palmetto State Armory and had it shipped without giving the LGS advance notice.
Holy Hurt Butt!
The reception I got was, to say the least, palpably frosty. True, the dealer had a Shield 2.0 in his display case for around $450 and probably would have preferred to sell me that one, but the one I ordered was a Gen 1. Not the same thing. I pointed that fact out to him and got a lecture on how he was against online ordering, and we should all support the local guy. He said it wasn't fair he couldn't touch that $249.95 price tag. I agreed, but said, "Couldn't you order some of these for your inventory and just mark them up $50-100? You'd still save on shipping by ordering several and you'd still make a profit. Heck, if you had one for $300 I'd have probably just bought it and avoided the hassle of having to wait. It would have been almost the same as what I did with your transfer fee."
He mumbled some excuse as to why PSA wouldn't give him the same deal, and I insisted, "I'd bet your credit card spends just as fast as mine. I don't see why they wouldn't send you a dozen of these at the same price just because you're an FFL." He insisted that wasn't the case and I didn't press the issue.
What shocked me was the sudden cold shoulder for ordering online and paying the local guy his fee to pick it up. Outlets like Davidson's openly advertise this practice, and I've ordered from Impact Guns, Palmetto State Armory, and a Gunsamerica vendor and never got so much as an unfriendly look from the local guy--until this time.
Is there such a slump in the gun industry that local retailers are feeling the pain and aren't so friendly toward not making a couple hundred bucks profit on a single gun?
Like I said, I've done this four or five times in the last three years and this is the first time I can remember getting a lecture and a cold shoulder for having done it.
I certainly don't think I'll have anything else shipped to that dealer. He's kind of out of my way anyway and he may not see any more of my business, period. I'm guessing this particular dealer just suddenly has a bug up his ass for online ordering, but I thought I'd put out the feelers and see if anyone else is getting this kind of reception.
Anybody else experiencing this?
I tend to use a kitchen table FFL for transfers. The guy I use probably does 15 direct to customer transfers for every gun he orders and sells retail, and he’s happy for the transfer business.
Travelingchild
05-30-19, 18:49
My LGS doesn't charge for transfers, It's basically a high end outdoor retail store. Management acknowleges they can't compete with online sales.
They "request that you buy $30 worth of ammo or other merchandise from them" but many time's after the paper works done they just say.
Don't worry about it, wish me a good day..
I do shop there quite often though.
Can you currently get an ffl without a retail store?
The guy I use is a plumber who has a class 3 license and a website. But it’s really just his house. He charges $30 and has actually given me a heads up on places to get a deal before or even verified if a place was legit.
I support my local GS by buying reloading supplies and small things. He used to be more competitive but is now significantly more expensive than what you can get online for guns.
I've maybe ordered a firearm online and had it shipped to one of two LGS's as many as five times in three years. At first I checked with each LGS in advance and got the okay from them before doing it. The last time I did this was in January or February. This last time, though, I assumed it was okay due to previous experiences and ordered one of the S&W Shields from Palmetto State Armory and had it shipped without giving the LGS advance notice. Holy Hurt Butt!
Bad form. At least make a courtesy call asking permission prior to using their license.
The_War_Wagon
05-30-19, 21:09
I’m waiting for the day FFLs just set up a kiosk-type store front and only do transfers.
There was a setup just about like this here in the South Hills. And his transfers were HALF the price of local gun shops - a third of what the chains, like Gander Mountain charged!
Business was so good... it grew into a LGS!
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-30-19, 21:48
I use "Scotties" here in DEnver for transfers. They have very little stock, I think they may live off of transfers. Don't know who owns it, but the guy who runs it is a Vietnam vet and a good guy. If he recognizes you, you get a discount. Haven't done much lately in transfers.
A range with FFL transfers would seem to be the way to make money. Selling guns seems like running a car dealership, the new sales are a drop in the bucket compared to used cars and the service dept.
I've never given the pawn shop that I use for the majority of my transfer's a head's up. If they are listed with the place I'm buying from I expect it to be okay with them to get transfers from that place.
Likewise, if the business I'm buying from contacts the LGS for a copy of their FFL (which they have to do in order to ship it to them unless they have a current copy on file, IIRC) I figure them being contacted by the selling FFL serves as warning enough.
I like the guys at my LGS and usually am in there often enough to tell them I have a lower, or a surplus firearm coming. I do all other complete guns through the pawn shop.
Several years ago I had a discussion with the LGS and let them know that when I make an offer to them on a new firearm, I have already located it at a comparable price. What I didn't tell them was that I give them a cushion of 2.00 bucks a mile plus a Jackson when I settle on the price I'll pay them over a shop in another town. As a result, when I ask them 'what's your best price on this?' they are forewarned.
I try to make sure I buy locally without cutting my throat - we buy about 1/2 our produce and meat from local shops - spend a little more for quality and to support local businesses. Likewise, I buy all my cleaning supplies and powder at the LGS. I used to buy my primers there, but after several trips to buy CCI primers and them not being in stock, I ordered 30,000 from PowderValley, in a couple months I'll go in and tell the LGS I need 5,000 and try to keep primers in stock that way.
Hey, we're all in this together.
I use a “tabletop” or “kitchen table” ffl.
Dude is drama free in the extreme, but still professional. Id try to find someone like that- with another full-time job...
Or just use the other guy.
Edit- I always give him a heads up when I order something.
I don't get this. He made money off of you for doing nothing other than fill out a form and lost no inventory. It's not like you were going to buy the gun from him anyway. Some money vs. no money - the choice should be obvious.
The customer can decide if he wants to conduct business with me or not, but the customer does not get to dictate my markup. People think they should be able to order a Knights Rifle at dealer price from places in Shotgun News and pay no more than a $35 transfer fee. It's absurd.
Now if it's something I don't have in inventory, be glad to special order anything, but there will be a markup, not a flat fee.
The exception is this.
If you are buying a gun from a private seller in another state and you need a FFL to complete the transaction, I charge $25 for that no matte what it is. If it's a rusty old pump shotgun it's $25 if it's a super rare Luger it's $25. That is because if you actually visited the seller in person you could conduct a private sale transaction with no FFL, you only need my FFL to ship across state lines and such. I did this all the time for collectors and was content to charge no more than $25 on stuff that had collector values in the thousands of dollars.
However, ordering from online wholesalers, where you need to BE a FFL to qualify for "dealer pricing" is quite another matter. You know what my dealer price is and I know what my dealer price is and we both know nobody has paid MSRP since the invention of the internet. I charge somewhere between a 10-15% markup depending on the item, how regular the customer is and if he's a decent guy or a pain in my ass.
But the important thing is that negotiation happens prior to anything being ordered and sent to me. Used to run into this from time to time in FL and since it wasn't an order I placed and didn't authorize I had the distributor issue a call tag to be returned to them on their dime and then they and the guy who ordered it can work out they issue "they created" in terms of refunding credit cards and who is responsible for what.
Anyone who without warning would just order a gun on my license and have it sent to me thinking they will tell me what they are willing to pay is not a customer I want or a person I want to help.
There are literally dozens of "transfer FFLs" in every zip code that operate that way and each one has a plan to own the market by being the lowest cost in town, just one problem the volume doesn't exist. People buy groceries every week, they don't buy guns every week. So unless the FFL is literally doing it for beer money, most run themselves out of business and don't renew. And every year there is a dozen new FFLs with the same plan to undercut the market and own it. It never works.
I charge what I need to charge to be in operation continuously. If I charge too much, I won't get enough sales to stay in business, if I charge too little I won't make enough money to cover operating costs. And sometimes that can be a thin damn line and if you think you can just try and sell the same guns WalMart has for sale that line is non existent.
I tend to specialize in military firearms and NFA stuff and making sure people have a stress free first time NFA transfer and helping them buy things like a Colt 6920 vs. Springfield Saint and explaining the difference gives me something of a niche market. People are willing to spend a little more if you help them save money they were going to spend on really stupid stuff when a much better option exists.
It's sorta a crazy business model, but if I care about them as a gun buyer and help them get the best things for their needs vs. trying to unload a bunch of crap I have in back that never sold very well and they respect me as a business owner who is trying to operate a profitable business so that I will still be in business next year, it all sort of works out.
I’ve forgotten how many transfers I’ve done the past 10 years - it’s a lot.
When I lived in the “big city” I used one source for 99% of my transfers and that was a “XX Gun and Pawn” stocking 90% used guns only. I would always give them a head’s up on the transfer, and they charged $25. Very rare I buy anything not new (lowers and complete guns) to be transferred, but I’d still extend the courtesy to see if they had or could get the item I wanted. The vast majority of the time no, but if yes, based on their business model, rarely could they compete with price and they’d actually tell me, “you can get a better price, you should do the transfer...” They understood it was a decent profit for them to charge $25 to essentially spend 10 minutes to log the transfer in their books and process the 4473 when I picked it up. In my state, with a CCW no background check is necessary. I’d still buy ammo and accessories from them and had a great customer relationship.
I’ve since moved to a “small town” and things are a little different. I’m very lucky to have a great small LGS that stocks mostly new stuff. Now, I check with them first for my purchases.
While I’ve done only transfers with them, they give me the “good guy” discount and, for the most part, they are competitive with online prices.
What I am losing on is the tax break but I’m not paying the shipping or transfer fee. Overall, yes I’m paying a little more (not a ton) but I’m cool with that because I’m supporting their local business and I’m truly getting awesome customer service - like old days service. Recently bought a Vortex Razor 1-6 through them. Ended up defective. Made mention of it to them, they said let us handle it, and they brokered the return and new scope directly with their Vortex rep. It was awesome. Try getting that service with a box store or chain.
If I do transfers with them it’s because they can’t get something I want or the price difference is so big they understand. But I always ask them first and if a transfer is the best option, they are or made aware and they’ll gladly take my $20 for their transfer fee.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have a confession to make. I collect stripped lowers. I buy one pretty much every month. I send them to my LGS/range, and they don’t require a heads up. They call me when its in and they don’t give me any guff. I pay the fee and they give me like 6 free range passes.
Adrenaline_6
05-31-19, 07:55
The customer can decide if he wants to conduct business with me or not, but the customer does not get to dictate my markup. People think they should be able to order a Knights Rifle at dealer price from places in Shotgun News and pay no more than a $35 transfer fee. It's absurd.
Now if it's something I don't have in inventory, be glad to special order anything, but there will be a markup, not a flat fee.
The exception is this.
If you are buying a gun from a private seller in another state and you need a FFL to complete the transaction, I charge $25 for that no matte what it is. If it's a rusty old pump shotgun it's $25 if it's a super rare Luger it's $25. That is because if you actually visited the seller in person you could conduct a private sale transaction with no FFL, you only need my FFL to ship across state lines and such. I did this all the time for collectors and was content to charge no more than $25 on stuff that had collector values in the thousands of dollars.
However, ordering from online wholesalers, where you need to BE a FFL to qualify for "dealer pricing" is quite another matter. You know what my dealer price is and I know what my dealer price is and we both know nobody has paid MSRP since the invention of the internet. I charge somewhere between a 10-15% markup depending on the item, how regular the customer is and if he's a decent guy or a pain in my ass.
But the important thing is that negotiation happens prior to anything being ordered and sent to me. Used to run into this from time to time in FL and since it wasn't an order I placed and didn't authorize I had the distributor issue a call tag to be returned to them on their dime and then they and the guy who ordered it can work out they issue "they created" in terms of refunding credit cards and who is responsible for what.
Anyone who without warning would just order a gun on my license and have it sent to me thinking they will tell me what they are willing to pay is not a customer I want or a person I want to help.
There are literally dozens of "transfer FFLs" in every zip code that operate that way and each one has a plan to own the market by being the lowest cost in town, just one problem the volume doesn't exist. People buy groceries every week, they don't buy guns every week. So unless the FFL is literally doing it for beer money, most run themselves out of business and don't renew. And every year there is a dozen new FFLs with the same plan to undercut the market and own it. It never works.
I charge what I need to charge to be in operation continuously. If I charge too much, I won't get enough sales to stay in business, if I charge too little I won't make enough money to cover operating costs. And sometimes that can be a thin damn line and if you think you can just try and sell the same guns WalMart has for sale that line is non existent.
I tend to specialize in military firearms and NFA stuff and making sure people have a stress free first time NFA transfer and helping them buy things like a Colt 6920 vs. Springfield Saint and explaining the difference gives me something of a niche market. People are willing to spend a little more if you help them save money they were going to spend on really stupid stuff when a much better option exists.
It's sorta a crazy business model, but if I care about them as a gun buyer and help them get the best things for their needs vs. trying to unload a bunch of crap I have in back that never sold very well and they respect me as a business owner who is trying to operate a profitable business so that I will still be in business next year, it all sort of works out.
Like others have said. If you are listed as a pre-approved dealer on PSA's website, to me and others, you have given authorization for transfers from them. If you want a contact ahead of time, you shouldn't be on that list.
sundance435
05-31-19, 07:57
I use a “tabletop” or “kitchen table” ffl.
Dude is drama free in the extreme, but still professional. Id try to find someone like that- with another full-time job...
Or just use the other guy.
Edit- I always give him a heads up when I order something.
There were fewer and fewer of these guys before my state passed a BS dealer licensing bill - they'll be non-existent in a year.
I'm not a brick / mortar ffl & focus primarily on consignments...also work directly with a couple of locally owned retail gun shops to consign their more unique items that are better suited for web sales and/or do not want them heavily fondled. We talk biz often...In general the gun market is in a slump Doc & likely contributed to his crustiness. The profit margins on guns is already a low points\ game, combine this along with $$$$ required to carry the needed inventory eats at them constantly & especially when biz is crawling. To get better margins the retailer is constantly balancing the buy-in vs capital it takes to have the inventory on hand and will they turn in a timely manner. Being a onesy / twosy buyer, I simply cannot touch pricing against larger retailers & my cost through disty's is almost always higher than I can find on gunbroker. A retailer who commits to $50k a year from Browning doesn't get the same pricing who buys $250k. My guys know I'm not out to get any of their OTC biz & want to mess with consignment. We throw each other business & has been working out well.
I too charge $25 for transfers but my retailers are close to double as they too prefer to sell in house & use this to discourage. More than half of my guys who have firearms shipped are generally buying clean used firearms of of older designs no longer produced / collectable pieces. I've only had the no warning of shipment a couple times & really only worry about the ding-dong delivery guy to leave the package at the door even when it has substantial Ins coverage, so yeah I like to get a tracking. Your ffl clearly handled it wrong as he lost a customer not only for transfers but likely OTC from you...while I completely understand his side of things he let his emotions fail him over a relatively inexpensive gun.
Doc Safari
05-31-19, 09:08
Bad form. At least make a courtesy call asking permission prior to using their license.
Like I said, I had asked for permission and had used them several times before, so I had come to think it was okay without asking this time. Plus, as someone pointed out, when you agree to be linked to these online distributors you kind of expect people to be sending stuff to you. It's like: If you don't want to be an Uber driver, don't be an Uber driver. But once you are part of their network you have to expect customers to use you through Uber's system.
The guy literally made thirty bucks to make a phone call. My lawyer doesn't even charge that kind of money.
Doc Safari
05-31-19, 09:15
The customer can decide if he wants to conduct business with me or not, but the customer does not get to dictate my markup. People think they should be able to order a Knights Rifle at dealer price from places in Shotgun News and pay no more than a $35 transfer fee. It's absurd.
Now if it's something I don't have in inventory, be glad to special order anything, but there will be a markup, not a flat fee.
.
There used to be a dealer I frequented that, if you ordered online and had it sent to him, he would add whatever markup would bring the gun to his normal price.
He's no longer in business.
Just sayin'. :)
I've never given the pawn shop that I use for the majority of my transfer's a head's up. If they are listed with the place I'm buying from I expect it to be okay with them to get transfers from that place.
Like others have said. If you are listed as a pre-approved dealer on PSA's website, to me and others, you have given authorization for transfers from them. If you want a contact ahead of time, you shouldn't be on that list.
Plus, as someone pointed out, when you agree to be linked to these online distributors you kind of expect people to be sending stuff to you.
Many online retailers add the FFL's they receive to lists of "FFLs on file" without any authorization to do so, nor any expressed or implied agreement for a continuing transfer relationship. When my FFLs send their license or I send on their behalf to an online vendor or another shop that is a license shared for that transaction.
I would make no assumptions, and use the property and privileges of others only with an abundance of courtesy.
Like others have said. If you are listed as a pre-approved dealer on PSA's website, to me and others, you have given authorization for transfers from them. If you want a contact ahead of time, you shouldn't be on that list.
That would be a completely different situation and you are of course correct.
There used to be a dealer I frequented that, if you ordered online and had it sent to him, he would add whatever markup would bring the gun to his normal price.
He's no longer in business.
Just sayin'. :)
FFLs go out of business for all kinds of reasons. And regardless of how you or I may feel, this again is the reality.
If I charge too much, I won't get enough sales to stay in business, if I charge too little I won't make enough money to cover operating costs.
Also a guy who owns a hardware store, has a gun range or pawn shop AND has a FFL setup is going to be able to exist on smaller margins than a guy who is just a FFL. 10% is not a dramatic markup for most firearms and the volume to sustain it just doesn't exist in most places.
Trust me, if I could make more money by selling at 5% markups, I know how math works. But at some point it becomes Arkansas economics where you "sell below cost but make it up in volume."
Obviously works both ways on both sides of the counter, if you can find the same thing $40 cheaper for no extra effort on your part, I can't imagine why you'd pay more. There have been a couple years where I realized I bought so few guns for myself it would have been cheaper to have them run through a transfer dealer than maintain a FFL.
Many online retailers add the FFL's they receive to lists of "FFLs on file" without any authorization to do so, nor any expressed or implied agreement for a continuing transfer relationship. When my FFLs send their license or I send on their behalf to an online vendor or another shop that is a license shared for that transaction.
I would make no assumptions, and use the property and privileges of others only with an abundance of courtesy.
I take your point. When I'm next in the area, I'll stop in the pawn shop and ask what they prefer.
My transfers are through a FFL whose business is primarily NFA and who does not sell conventional firearms. I always send him an email prior to buying online as a courtesy. I also pick up as soon as possible after he notifies me my order is in and take all my packaging with me.
If I could find LMT or Sionics or equivalent lowers at any of the gun stores here I would not order online, but they all seem to prefer to stock hundreds of Anderson, Ruger or S&W lowers.
Andy
Doc Safari
06-01-19, 14:51
Many online retailers add the FFL's they receive to lists of "FFLs on file" without any authorization to do so, nor any expressed or implied agreement for a continuing transfer relationship. When my FFLs send their license or I send on their behalf to an online vendor or another shop that is a license shared for that transaction.
I would make no assumptions, and use the property and privileges of others only with an abundance of courtesy.
In that case I agree with you.
Companies such as Bud's and Palmetto State Armory have lists of preferred FFL's, but of course they do LOTS of firearms shipping. It does make it a bit more streamlined for the consumer when they ship direct to your local FFL without the buyer (in the case of Bud's, anyway) having to do anything more. In other cases, a "heads up" call to the FFL is desirable.
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