View Full Version : Still a few God fearing 1911 guys in the military!
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-05-19, 01:22
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28379/americas-top-general-in-afghanistan-packs-an-old-school-1911-pistol
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28379/americas-top-general-in-afghanistan-packs-an-old-school-1911-pistol
That holster looks like his six year old made it for a school art project.
ETA - not knocking the guy just to do it, I simply feel like a better carriage option would be of value.
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ThirdWatcher
06-05-19, 07:22
I made a nicer holster for my M1911A1 in the Craft Shop @ Camp Humphreys, ROK back in 1975.
Scott Miller is a former Delta commander and a general officer -- they can carry whatever pistol they want as part of their uniform. General Officers are issued an M9 (with the option to buy). He was given a Glock 22 when he left the unit (through the association).
That said, he prefers a 1911, as did Generals Schoomaker and Bargewell.
ADM McRaven also carried a 1911.
Not wanting to renew the perpetual .45 vs. everything else feud but !!!
.45 centered tends to put em down, just takes one, as a rule.
At least he's carrying Condition 1!
Yeah, he can carry whatever he wants IMO. Looks like more than a M1911, with beavertail and magwell.
Its does my heart good to see that. In spite of some critical comments I think that it is awesome that we have a Commanding General that knows how to use what he is carrying.
Don't Tread On Me
06-05-19, 21:50
Its does my heart good to see that. In spite of some critical comments I think that it is awesome that we have a Commanding General that knows how to use what he is carrying.
Well, if the guy is former CAG, I would be pretty disappointed if that weren’t the case.
https://i.imgur.com/vtXVtpN.jpg
Here's one built by a CAG name LAV.
Not wanting to renew the perpetual .45 vs. everything else feud but !!!
.45 centered tends to put em down, just takes one, as a rule.
On the internet and in gun shops, yes.
In the real world, no.
Well, my brother was an Oakland cop. When he finished the academy I gave him a SIG P220 in .45.
When he was a rookie, he and his Field Training Officer responded to a domestic and he was attacked with a knife. One 230-grain Hydra-Shock center-chest on the target ended the fight.
Saw this image shared on a Facebook page. I criticized his holster here because I have used some less-stellar ones and because of that, I now appreciate certain features in a holster. However, some of the comments on that post are just plain stupid. Like someone complaining that he can carry whatever he wants but a "Joe" can't...
https://i.imgur.com/vtXVtpN.jpg
Here's one built by a CAG name LAV.
Sam,
If you ever happen to be back up this way just make a pit stop and drop that off at my house! Beautiful 1911!
Sam,
If you ever happen to be back up this way just make a pit stop and drop that off at my house! Beautiful 1911!
LOL. I'll think about it ..... Thank you. I'll let you see it if I'm in the area or if you're down my way.
Well, my brother was an Oakland cop. When he finished the academy I gave him a SIG P220 in .45.
When he was a rookie, he and his Field Training Officer responded to a domestic and he was attacked with a knife. One 230-grain Hydra-Shock center-chest on the target ended the fight.
Completely anecdotal. The ineffectiveness and inconsistency of essentially all handgun rounds is well documented. Shot placement and ammunition selection are the critical, deciding factors. It sounds like your brother nailed the shot placement part.
Not wanting to renew the perpetual .45 vs. everything else feud but !!!
.45 centered tends to put em down, just takes one, as a rule.
You have a better than 70% chance of surviving being shot with a handgun regardless of caliber. The reverse is true for rifle or shotgun.
https://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk
I’ve not been impressed by most non-CNS pistol wounds I’ve seen, generally. Regardless of caliber. They have a tendency to live at least into surgery, and many have ok outcomes.
The Burner grips and S&A magwell lead me to believe he's mighty nostalgic.
Well, my brother was an Oakland cop. When he finished the academy I gave him a SIG P220 in .45.
When he was a rookie, he and his Field Training Officer responded to a domestic and he was attacked with a knife. One 230-grain Hydra-Shock center-chest on the target ended the fight.
I'm sure it did, and I've seen one NATO FMJ 124gr center chest end the fight.
The assassination attempt on Reagan put 3 men down, two never got up, and the round that almost killed Reagan bounced off the car and his arm before entering his lung. That was a .22LR.
The Burner grips and S&A magwell lead me to believe he's mighty nostalgic.
The Novak rear sight that fits in the GI dovetail and overhang the rear of the slide is another trademark of some of the guns used by those people. I believe LAV built a few like that too.
Deadsquiggles
06-07-19, 12:53
I'm sure it did, and I've seen one NATO FMJ 124gr center chest end the fight.
The assassination attempt on Reagan put 3 men down, two never got up, and the round that almost killed Reagan bounced off the car and his arm before entering his lung. That was a .22LR.
Exactly. It goes without saying that almost any round can be devastating based on shot placement. Obviously best practice is to shoot the threat until it’s not longer a threat.
Here's an article about a former Unit member who is building some really nice hard use 1911s.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/pilot-mt-arms-delta/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20190527_BlogDigest_331&utm_campaign=/digest/pilot-mt-arms-delta/
https://www.pilotmountainarms.com/online-store/Pilot-Mountain-Arms-Operator-Model-5%E2%80%9D-45cal-1911-Pistol-p99992878
Great article, Sam.
Pat McNamara was Delta Selection and Training Sergeant Major after Brian. He is a Distinguished Pistol Shot as well, and won a Secretary of the Army M1 Trophy Rifle as Novice Champion at his first All-Army Championships.
Greg Coker, the gunship pilot, is a survivor of a surface-to-air missile hit on a Little Bird. The subsequent crash-landing broke his back. Part of his convalescent leave was training at the Army Marksmanship Unit building 3-gun weapons (rifles, carbines, and pistols).
Rob Garrett, author of the article, is a retired Columbus, Georgia (outside Fort Benning) police lieutenant.
Great article, Sam.
Pat McNamara was Delta Selection and Training Sergeant Major after Brian. He is a Distinguished Pistol Shot as well, and won a Secretary of the Army M1 Trophy Rifle as Novice Champion at his first All-Army Championships.
Greg Coker, the gunship pilot, is a survivor of a surface-to-air missile hit on a Little Bird. The subsequent crash-landing broke his back. Part of his convalescent leave was training at the Army Marksmanship Unit building 3-gun weapons (rifles, carbines, and pistols).
Rob Garrett, author of the article, is a retired Columbus, Georgia (outside Fort Benning) police lieutenant.
Interesting, I didn’t know any of that stuff about Pat. I also didn’t know that we had any birds shot down by SAMs. It doesn’t really surprise me, but I do wonder what percentage of downed aircraft is attributable to guided missiles. That’s also an awesome job to do while in recovery.
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I get nostalgic for .45 too and I've seen it work quite well on human beings. But I've actually seen .40 be a lot more effective with a lot more rounds. I liked the G21 but I have a huge hand and it still feels fat.
Anyways 1911s are like extensions of personality. That's not a bad thing but its still a thing. Most people who tote a 1911 either really know what they are doing or they really dont.
JMHO
ETA I would still take a 1911 over a 320 though just on principle alone
Rob Garrett, author of the article, is a retired Columbus, Georgia (outside Fort Benning) police lieutenant.
Rob is a friend of mine.
Scott Miller is a former Delta commander and a general officer -- they can carry whatever pistol they want as part of their uniform. General Officers are issued an M9 (with the option to buy). He was given a Glock 22 when he left the unit (through the association).
That said, he prefers a 1911, as did Generals Schoomaker and Bargewell.
Yup, nothing quite like God on earth than a general on a battlefield.
MountainRaven
06-09-19, 16:26
It's cute watching soyboys come into a thread about 1911s and shit on the gun that people literally spend thousands of dollars trying to turn their tupperware into.
Don't get me wrong - the tupperware guns are great and if I were running a police department or military organization, I'd be issuing Glocks.
At the end of the day, though, there are only two types of semi-automatic pistols: 1911s and pistols that aspire to one day be 1911s.
While the 1911 will inevitably go the way of antiquity it’s still pretty intriguing to see how wide reaching the applicability of the platform really is after so many decades.
Personally I think the new era 2011 stuff is awesome I just wish the platform was more user-end serviceable overall. Sure you can tinker but building one up is on a entire different level.
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So many lolz
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The Dumb Gun Collector
06-09-19, 18:32
Let's get back on track guys. The subject of this thread is the old guard still carrying their beloved 1911s. If you prefer something else good for you, start a thread about how much you like something else..
I still love from the bottom of my heart the 1911 handgun. And clearly many others do as well as shown by guys still donning the 1911 in the desert. If you dont like it, go to your favorite plastic gun thread and chime in on its merits. I do. No handgun brings an admiration of technology and history as does the 1911, they are a thing to behold. God Bless Joseph B.
PB
Let's get back on track guys. The subject of this thread is the old guard still carrying their beloved 1911s. If you prefer something else good for you, start a thread about how much you like something else..
Good to see it's still an option to carry a 1911. The thing I always wonder for those who still carry and train regularly with them in the military, is if they have any issues getting access to a good armorer who knows how to work on a 1911, and can get adequate parts to follow the 1911 maintenance schedule.
Gary1911A1
06-10-19, 12:45
Shortly before writing this I did some draws and dry firing on an USPSA target with my timer set to beep again in 1.5 seconds. I was using my steel frame 1911 and from reaction to the first beep, draw and dry fire to the head just under 1.5 second with the sights lined up on the head consistently. I just can't do that with any other pistol. How important would that be on the street is certainly open to debate, but everything being equal I'd rather be quick than dead.
Shot placement, decisive action, .45ACP Colt WITH 230gr. HARDBALLS , drew from concealment - good guy 1 - thug 0. This happened a couple years or so ago about 30 minutes from my office. The pawn shop owner used to shoot IPSC at the same club that I shot, yes it was still being called IPSC, waaaay back when USPSA was in its infancy. I knew who he was, but didn't know him personally. We have mutual friends. He told our mutual friend that he was at the range a day or two prior, doing some shooting. When he was done, leaving the range, he loaded his magazine with ball ammo because he ran out of self defense HP. I guess he figured that he would replenish that when he got back to the store. But he never changed ammo and ended up using the balls.
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d88_1483989722
1911's are as beautiful, well-crafted, effective, and as appropriate for the modern battlefield as a katana.
ramairthree
06-10-19, 17:34
He seems like a solid guy.
I only met briefly after I was retired and he pinned on 06 to a friend that had been prior enlisted in his troop in 93.
Never served under him.
What were the unit 1911 build trigger pulls at? Mid 80s to mid 90s?
The Army's top-secret Delta Force was another a particular proponent of the design. Miller, perhaps not surprisingly, is a veteran of Delta Force, having served with it in Somalia, the Balkans, Afghanistan, and Iraq, at least that we know of.
Serious men carrying a serious gun.
alcante262
06-22-19, 00:50
Nice SAM,I think LAV knows what he s doing.
When at my first duty station, I was issued a rattletrap 1911 that had probably last been rebuilt in the 1950s. It was a travesty of a firearm and. I was quite satisfied when we were given the M9. Despite this, I have a nostalgic fondness for the 1911. I have since become acquainted with what a properly built 1911 is capable of. I would happily carry my own 1911 in theater if the Army would allow me. I'm happy to see that some still hold the 1911 in some regard and are willing to carry it.
RetroRevolver77
06-24-19, 02:06
1911's are as beautiful, well-crafted, effective, and as appropriate for the modern battlefield as a katana.
They are our katana.
The 1911 is unique to our culture, our heritage, to our way of life more than any other weapon.
RR77
I never was a 1911 fan until recently...after buying my first one I now understand the appeal of them and why some folks choose them..
Nice SAM,I think LAV knows what he s doing.
You mean the same LAV who said that he loves the 1911, but if he's going into combat then he's carrying a Glock? The same LAV who wrote an article on the "caliber war" and announced the 9mm as the winner? ;)
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-25-19, 17:32
Larry lost a bunch of weight, he can’t handle the recoil anymore.
MountainRaven
06-25-19, 21:00
They make 1911s in 9mm.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-26-19, 12:02
That’s like a v6 mustang. Faster than you think, but nah.
MountainRaven
06-26-19, 13:07
Apart from Clint Smith, I can't think of too many other serious 1911 guys who put most of their rounds through a 1911 in 45, any more. Almost all of them are running 9mm, even if only in training.
ramairthree
06-26-19, 13:53
You mean the same LAV who said that he loves the 1911, but if he's going into combat then he's carrying a Glock? The same LAV who wrote an article on the "caliber war" and announced the 9mm as the winner? ;)
The thing about a 1911 is that you can love it. Just like you can love a 70 Challenger.
And you can Have that 70 in perfect running condition and tune and everything working fantastic, and take it out for a great drive and all is right with the world. Just like you could take your 1911 to a match or a single objective.
But, then you start using the 70 Challenger as a daily driver. The wipers quit working. You replace the motor. A week later the washer pump on the new motor quits. Then your backup light goes out. You replace the bulb. Still no backup light. You replace the backup light switch, now it works. A week later your back up light is always on. You replace the switch again. Your 440 and carb are averaging 11 miles per gallon. You have no AC. Your player keeps eating 8 tracks. Your perfectly adjusted carb now has you feathering the gas pedal to keep it running at start up until it is warmed up. Your starter quits. You replace it. It won’t start. There is a drain on the battery somewhere when it is parked and not running. Your headlights are dim. You wire in a relay. Still not much better.
Just like a 1911 being carried for months of deployments with dozens of objectives and range trips. It becomes very maintenance intensive.
So you get a new Challenger RT.
It holds more, has AC, everything works, nothing’s keeps needing to be fixed, it handles better, brakes better, gets more MPG. Just like a Glock holds more, works, and needs less maintenance.
Sure, you miss the loud roar as you floor the gas pedal and almost 500 ft lbs of torque throw you back in your seat.
But now matter how good you were with your 70, every course you drive with the new challenger you run faster.
While I have, and have huge respect for men on target with a Randall one one hip, a metal pistol on the other, and a Rolex on their wrist-
The time has come where it is an affectation.
A perfectly functional and useable affectation,
But a Glock, hockey puck goes/altimeter/compass/barometer/ watch, and a smaller, lest costly benchmade or kabar are going to get the job done with less cost and less hassle.
Stay on topic or your post will go away.
MountainRaven
06-26-19, 23:31
That’s like a v6 mustang. Faster than you think, but nah.
On the subject of my last post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZXZBvg3TwU
Ken Hackathorn. Lightweight 1911 Commander. 9mm.
"So you guys with the world's finest close quarters combat weapon - the 1911 45-caliber pistol - are good to go."
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-27-19, 19:08
Last class I was in Ken liked 9mm for practice because he shot out his elbows with magnums. He said he was still carrying .45 for self defense.
Being Ken Hackathorn, no doubt training with a different round than he carries is not a problem--pretty sure he can transition easily between them and shoot the .45 like a god. :cool: For myself, it always temporarily throws me off when I switch between shooting my 9mm and .45 1911's, both the amount and type of recoil. I don't carry a 1911 now (switched to M&P's several years ago), but if I did I'd want to train with the same caliber and load that I carried.
RetroRevolver77
06-28-19, 22:53
Being Ken Hackathorn, no doubt training with a different round than he carries is not a problem--pretty sure he can transition easily between them and shoot the .45 like a god. :cool: For myself, it always temporarily throws me off when I switch between shooting my 9mm and .45 1911's, both the amount and type of recoil. I don't carry a 1911 now (switched to M&P's several years ago), but if I did I'd want to train with the same caliber and load that I carried.
Pick up a lightweight commander in 45 ACP and carry that instead.
ramairthree
06-29-19, 13:45
I love 1911s.
And I love my 68 GTO.
And I love MP5s, G3’s, FN FALs, the M60, etc.
But objectively, there are more logical choices for daily use.
Drifting Fate
06-30-19, 18:50
But objectively, there are more logical choices for daily use.
This is undoubtedly true, but, we aren't Vulcans. Subjectivity and emotions, like it or not, play into the majority of our decisions - personal weapons, vehicles, homes, spouses... emotion should not be fought against, but integrated into our decision making.
So, objectively, there are some things we shouldn't give up, such as reliability and a minimum power threshold. But, even what those two items should be are ultimately subjective.
After trying many "smarter" choices over the years after living on the words of Cooper and carrying .45 1911's, I cannot begin to describe the sheer contentedness I have had since I switched back to a 1911, this time a LW Commander in 9mm. While part of me wants a .45 and believe it to have the edge over 9mm, I accept 9mm will do the job if I will and so many other issues - arthritis and cost of ammunition - take precedent. So, subjectivity tempered by objectivity. But, a 1911 in condition one just gives me confidence should I ever have to make The Shot(s), coupled with an extensive past on the platform, and I'm much happier with 10+1 than I ever was with a G19 at 15+1.
Objectively I can, and will, argue the G19 all day long as a Tool amongst tools. Subjectively, I'm the prodigal son come home to a feast when I strap on my 1911.
To bring this back to the OP - I suspect many senior military folks who cut their teeth on the 1911 feel a similar comfort with the platform. It's hard to deny the leaps and bounds modern manufacturing have brought to pistol craft, but if you have the means to a reliable 1911, you might just not care.
ThirdWatcher
07-01-19, 01:05
Pick up a lightweight commander in 45 ACP and carry that instead.
That’s my favorite pistol (a blued Colt WC Commander in my case).
That’s my favorite pistol (a blued Colt WC Commander in my case).
I just picked up that same pistol and it is my least favorite 1911. The fit and finish is atrocious. For $1200-1400 Colt should be ashamed of putting such a product out. I actually called them to express my utter amazement at how horribly fit everything was and in typical Colt customer service fashion they didn’t even pick up and I couldn’t leave a voicemail.
I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but as a 1911 collector and avid competitive shooter I was shocked to see someone say their modern Colt was their favorite pistol.
I love 1911s.
And I love my 68 GTO.
And I love MP5s, G3’s, FN FALs, the M60, etc.
But objectively, there are more logical choices for daily use.
You have beat this horse to death. We get it. You-Glock, next!
ThirdWatcher
07-02-19, 06:21
I just picked up that same pistol and it is my least favorite 1911. The fit and finish is atrocious. For $1200-1400 Colt should be ashamed of putting such a product out. I actually called them to express my utter amazement at how horribly fit everything was and in typical Colt customer service fashion they didn’t even pick up and I couldn’t leave a voicemail.
I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but as a 1911 collector and avid competitive shooter I was shocked to see someone say their modern Colt was their favorite pistol.
I must have gotten one of the good ones.
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