View Full Version : BCM Mod 0 - nothing to complain about!
Thought I would post a positive post about my Bravo Company Mod 0 rifle I bought new a few years ago. Was cleaning it this weekend after an AR competition we have at my club once a month, and realized I have over 3,000 rounds through it!
It has run perfect from day one! I have not had one FTF or FTE in over 3K rounds. Always goes bang. Only mods are a Magpul sling and an Aimpoint PRO red dot sight. It has been fed factory PMC and Federal .223 ammo. I clean it every 500-600 rounds or so. When taking it apart, the tail of the bolt isn't too carbon'd up (never took a tool to it), the gas rings look good, the barrel cleans up quickly with WipeOut, etc.
Just for fun, I did order this weekend a new extractor, extractor spring and rubber, gas rings, cam pin and cotter pin for the firing pin from BCM. None of these items are excessively worn, just a little preventative maint. on the BCG to go another 3-4K rounds.
Couldn't be happier with the BCM carbine!! Sorry, nothing to complain about :)
I have two their awesome
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Boringly reliable is good, and a positive product post in the gun community is always welcome (at least for me).
Doc Safari
06-12-19, 13:39
I had put 6,000 rounds with maybe one malfunction through my BCM Model 0 before I traded it off. I only got rid of it because there was a Colt model I wanted more and didn't have the funds to keep both.
Yes, I don't want to only post when there is an issue (which is what most folks including myself usually do). This has been a great ownership experience. I keep it plenty lubricated with either Slip2000 EWL (Per Pat Rogers, RIP) or Lubriplate oil and grease. I think the good press Pat Rogers gave it years ago was the reason I went with a Bravo vs. Colt or a DD. So glad I bought a mil-spec AR vs. a hobby AR (not that there's anything wrong with those, as long as you know what you're getting).
Cheers!
Well, came home and a small package from Bravo Company was delivered by the man in the brown truck. Took a half hour and cleaned the rifle and replaced all the BCG wear items with the new ones (and added the rubber doughnut). Cycled a few rounds through it (in the basement, with the safety on, finger off the trigger, pointed in a safe direction...) and everything worked as it should. I am ready to go again!
Achilles11B
06-12-19, 20:41
The upper on my HD carbine is a BCM and it’s been boringly reliable for the past year I’ve had it. I couldn’t be happier with mine and I’m glad you’re happy with yours.
Be sure to check the free length of your action spring or just replace it outright.
Well, came home and a small package from Bravo Company was delivered by the man in the brown truck. Took a half hour and cleaned the rifle and replaced all the BCG wear items with the new ones. I am ready to go again!
Darn it, totally forgot about the action spring! May have to order up one of those too as those certainly are maintenance items (and they're only around $5). Thanks for the reminder.
556BlackRifle
06-13-19, 11:39
Great company. I've never had a problem with BCM but if I did, I know they'd take care of it no questions asked.
Doc Safari
06-13-19, 11:43
Somebody explain to my why there's the occasional snarky comment that BCM is "hobby grade crap." I always thought they were at the top of the famous chart. I never had one issue with one of their rifles, and I owned several. The only minor criticism I ever had for BCM is that usually their guns are just barely less accurate than a Colt. I'd still trust my life to one. Why the hate from some people?
I think it's just tongue in cheek, sarcastic jabbing. At least, that is how I read into it.
Somebody explain to my why there's the occasional snarky comment that BCM is "hobby grade crap." I always thought they were at the top of the famous chart. I never had one issue with one of their rifles, and I owned several. The only minor criticism I ever had for BCM is that usually their guns are just barely less accurate than a Colt. I'd still trust my life to one. Why the hate from some people?
Ordered the action spring from BCM. Now I should be set.
Yup, Carpenter 158 steel, shot peened and magnetic particle inspected and high pressure proof tested is definitely "hobby grade" :smile:. I'll take it...wait, I already did!
Somebody explain to my why there's the occasional snarky comment that BCM is "hobby grade crap." I always thought they were at the top of the famous chart. I never had one issue with one of their rifles, and I owned several. The only minor criticism I ever had for BCM is that usually their guns are just barely less accurate than a Colt. I'd still trust my life to one. Why the hate from some people?
If you are referimg to me then i can use smaller words because i thought i was Abundantly clear on that topic.
Eurodriver
06-13-19, 16:18
If you are referimg to me then i can use smaller words because i thought i was Abundantly clear on that topic.
What do you have against BCM?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?215332-Why-do-we-eat-our-own/page4
Start reading from post #40.
What do you have against BCM?
Nothing when we are talking about capitalism...... as for real firearms....... why make something good when you can pay people to stop the spreading of the truth .
Expensive Marketing over quality products
Doc Safari
06-13-19, 16:25
Nothing when we are talking about capitalism...... as for real firearms....... why make something good when you can pay people to stop the spreading of the truth .
Expensive Marketing over quality products
Okay I read the thread you reference and re-read your post #40 and a few posts beyond. Apparently there is a discussion either here or TOS or somewhere else going into detail about your claims. Can you link to that? I bought my BCM's in 2010 when the serial numbers were still under 500 so I'm not defending their current output. I just want to read the original source material that you're getting your claims from. Thanks.
EDITED TO ADD: I did some Googling and found a lengthy post. I'd still like to know your personal experiences, or your source, though.
https://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ar-15-talk/126441-bcm-overrated.html
-They don't pin their Gas blocks on most models, this matters to me, especially since I put serious rounds down range and most DOD/Mil contracts require it for good reason.
-Most of their barrel nuts are put on with some sort of thread locker. It took a freezer, heat gun, 6 foot cheater bar and two days to get it off. Not exactly field serviceable (I know you wouldn't take a barrel off in the field) and they will never get a GOV contract with that going on.
-Accuracy of their barrels are usually in the 2-4MOA range, even their MK12 model shoots 1.5MOA. If I don't get 1moa in a AR it's trash, most serious shooters think the same.
-Inconsistent tolerances between upper and lower pin holes, not mil spec at all. Worse upper lower rattle/fitment ever, makes bullet in top of mag rub against carrier and causes deformations in the casings. Plus it will cause wear in the friction points at a accelerated rate.
-Most parts are not made in house it seems, LPKs, buffer tubes, FSP and BCGs are identical to PSA and no doubt come from same supplier. BCM charges much more for the same parts, just called them special names.
-Inconsistent torque ratios on barrel nut, castle nut and pistol grip screw. This makes servicing horrible since the threads won't last as long.
-High wear with low friction abrasions on KMR, charging handles and upper receiver. My KMR has three serious scratches in it, only have 200 rounds through it mostly from a bipod. Charging handle looks like it fought in Nam, upper receiver was replaced, took coating clear off the shell deflector. I know it's technically not a coating. Looks are not super important to me, but you don't want metal showing....ever.
-incorrectly clocked rail and comp, rail was 4 degrees off, comp was 11, both to the left.
-Customer service is inconsistent, sometimes they are great....sometimes they are from another planet.
-THEY WILL NOT POST A BAD REVIEW ON THEIR WEBSITE......EVER. I had a very lengthy email trail going on with them and they flat out told me they would never post a bad review. Which actually falls under fraudulent advertisement since reviews are screened and used as a quality testament. They don't care what the issue is, and if they ever put out a unsafe product you won't know when you purchase since they won't display the bad review of it.
-THE LIST GOES ON.....
Accuracy has been horrid even when using a US Optics 10x with 20 different types of ammo, some which are the best you can put through a AR.....Federal Sierra Match, Gorrila, Fiochi Match ect. I haven't seen better than 2.5MOA in any stock BCM rifle or upper......ever. My PSA is a 1 MOA rifle, and that just puts them to shame since it cost half of what the BCM did. People say "they are combat rifles, they don't need to be MOA"........yes they do, what soldier/Marine in the world wants a less accurate rifle????? Why pay $700 for a 2.5moa BCM upper when a $400 Premium PSA upper will get you 1.5-2moa.
There are some good things, KMR rail is nice, lock up is probably best in the market or on par with Daniel Defense. BCGs, FSP are top grade (they don't make them, which is common for AR companies.) The Mod0 Comp is great, much better the A2, not worth $80 but still great. Their guns run, F2F of any kind is rare, and I don't see one falling apart easily since they over torque/thread lock everything. They are Mil-Spec on areas that matter (not mil-spec in a lot of other things) like feed ramps, bolt lock up, and gas systems.
I wouldn't mind buying parts from BCM, just not a all out rifle or upper. I can't see me ever buying or recommending another one of their barrels, and I don't see them lasting as a manufacturer much longer with these QC issues that are starting to come main stream. I HOPE that they reinvent their QC policy's and get their accuracy guidelines to 1MOA or it won't go out the door. Larue did this and now is one of the most dependable companies there is (customer service is....eeeeh.)
My take: I have no idea if a single syllable of this is true. Like I said my only issue with a BCM rifle has been minimal accuracy differences between two BCM's and two Colts shot side-by-side.
The first AR I owned was built in 2016 on a complete BCM 16" LW midlength URG (std, not HF) and BCM lower parts with the exception of the receiver. Basically all parts except stripped lower receiver, optic, light/mount handguards, trigger guard and stock are BCM.
It has been perfectly reliable, soft shooting, accurate (with a red dot at least), and a pleasure to own over the years. I did not keep a round count but filled a 5 gallon bucket with brass, so it has been shot a bit.
BCMs are a bit pricey but I don't hesitate to recommend them.
My experience and opinion, for what it's worth.
Andy
Okay I read the thread you reference and re-read your post #40 and a few posts beyond. Apparently there is a discussion either here or TOS or somewhere else going into detail about your claims. Can you link to that? I bought my BCM's in 2010 when the serial numbers were still under 500 so I'm not defending their current output. I just want to read the original source material that you're getting your claims from. Thanks.
EDITED TO ADD: I did some Googling and found a lengthy post. I'd still like to know your personal experiences, or your source, though.
https://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ar-15-talk/126441-bcm-overrated.html
My take: I have no idea if a single syllable of this is true. Like I said my only issue with a BCM rifle has been minimal accuracy differences between two BCM's and two Colts shot side-by-side.
I am not on TOS. Not claims at all. I posted some very detailed side by side comparisons on LF several years ago. The entire review was deleted by one of the paid BCM trollers because it was not favorable at all. If that guy in the article was able to get a solid 2-4 MOA he was lucky.
Notice that if you talk crap about PSA or Colt it is just another conversation? Do that about BCM and the fanboys come out of the woodwork.
I take most of it to PM if people are interested. In the open forum you get all of the true believers acting like muslims when you explain that islam in nit a religion of peace.
Here is a test. The true quality makers make a great product. You may not like them or care for them in any way but the product is ligit. If a company sells Blems be suspicious about the rest of their products. That means they are so bad that they know people will catch them.
I had a BCM.
Now all I have are Colts, KAC, LMT, and an HK.
I don’t have them because of the name.
I don’t really discuss BCM for a reason these days but will go on and on about my Colt and my LMT.
But you can buy whatever you want
I got some questions...were guys like Pat Rogers and still living guys like Pat Mac just shills or they just didn't/don't know much about the guns they fronted for? Is the owner of this site just ignorant? Straight up...is BCM a rebranded PSA for all practical purposes?
~3800 rounds through my 16” BFH ELW with no issues*. Accuracy is not as good as my dad’s DDM4V5LW, but it’s not 2-4 moa by any means, and DD makes very accurate barrels. I haven’t replaced any moving parts except for a putting in a Geissele SSA at ~300-500 rounds and swapping the action spring at about 3k when I switched to an A5 (BCM extension, Sprinco green, Vltor A5-2).
The grip screw and castle nut were not overtightened FWIW. I have no reason to screw with the comp or barrel nut yet.
I won’t defend BCM when it comes to the well documented PMAG issue, nor will I defend the clowns giving them a pass on bad lowers and worse customer service that they wouldn’t give to PSA/Spikes/Aero, but MY lower works perfectly with gen 2, gen 3, and even D60 PMAGs with no modification to the lower or the mags. And it was a “blem” go figure.
*I’ve had 2 failures to fire with some bad handloads of mine that also failed in a couple DD uppers. A case gauge determined they were out of spec.
I got some questions...were guys like Pat Rogers and still living guys like Pat Mac just shills or they just didn't/don't know much about the guns they fronted for? Is the owner of this site just ignorant? Straight up...is BCM a rebranded PSA for all practical purposes?
Pat Rogers was banned from here. That says a lot and one of main reasons i am here.
As the thread progressed, I was thinking exactly this last night, same names and quite a few more. I have nothing against people or products being endorsed, but I did have a sense that BCM products were being qualified by well-vetted shooters and former operators who's names mean something to a Joe Smoe, like me.
Aside from some difficult disassembly issues, I've never had any serious problems with BCM products. I've always considered their price tags to be indicative of their high QC (and CS) practices, but maybe that is just an illusion. The link above to perfectunion made me chuckle because I've actually experienced those things as well and I've shared those experiences on this board. Didn't always go well, but it was the truth.
I got some questions...were guys like Pat Rogers and still living guys like Pat Mac just shills or they just didn't/don't know much about the guns they fronted for? Is the owner of this site just ignorant? Straight up...is BCM a rebranded PSA for all practical purposes?
Doc Safari
06-14-19, 08:48
I think BCM is the Arsenal of AR's. When they were a small shop with time to source, QC, and build everything with attention to detail, they were great. Filthy 14 was an example. I think as they expanded, though, they started to commit the sins that companies often commit when they expand, and that's where they are now. I'm basing that on reading threads on the gun boards. My 2010-2011 vintage BCM's were fantastic.
Is it tinfoily to wonder if this thread will be sanitized due to the fact that this board is sponsored by BCM?
As the thread progressed, I was thinking exactly this last night, same names and quite a few more. I have nothing against people or products being endorsed, but I did have a sense that BCM products were being qualified by well-vetted shooters and former operators who's names mean something to a Joe Smoe, like me.
Aside from some difficult disassembly issues, I've never had any serious problems with BCM products. I've always considered their price tags to be indicative of their high QC (and CS) practices, but maybe that is just an illusion. The link above to perfectunion made me chuckle because I've actually experienced those things as well and I've shared those experiences on this board. Didn't always go well, but it was the truth.
This is where I'm at. I do own one BCM upper and it's been fine. Never had it apart and it's always worked so I haven't had any reason to use their CS. Some things said here make me wonder if I didn't get hosed. I just have no idea.
I think BCM is the Arsenal of AR's. When they were a small shop with time to source, QC, and build everything with attention to detail, they were great. Filthy 14 was an example. I think as they expanded, though, they started to commit the sins that companies often commit when they expand, and that's where they are now. I'm basing that on reading threads on the gun boards. My 2010-2011 vintage BCM's were fantastic.
Mines about that old too.
I am not on TOS. Not claims at all. I posted some very detailed side by side comparisons on LF several years ago. The entire review was deleted by one of the paid BCM trollers because it was not favorable at all. If that guy in the article was able to get a solid 2-4 MOA he was lucky.
Notice that if you talk crap about PSA or Colt it is just another conversation? Do that about BCM and the fanboys come out of the woodwork.
I take most of it to PM if people are interested. In the open forum you get all of the true believers acting like muslims when you explain that islam in nit a religion of peace.
Here is a test. The true quality makers make a great product. You may not like them or care for them in any way but the product is ligit. If a company sells Blems be suspicious about the rest of their products. That means they are so bad that they know people will catch them.
Dont quite get the blem issue. Wouldn't selling blems as blems just indicate they weren't good enough for their first line? What am I missing?
Is it tinfoily to wonder if this thread will be sanitized due to the fact that this board is sponsored by BCM?
Screen shots are a good thing....... :rolleyes:
Pat Rogers was banned from here. That says a lot and one of main reasons i am here.
I don't know why Pat was banned. I know being banned isn't always indicative of an objective wrong though.
Not a Pat or Mac fanboy, but there is a disconnect for me that all these famous big cheese guys fronting BCM are being dishonest.
Dont quite get the blem issue. Wouldn't selling blems as blems just indicate they weren't good enough for their first line? What am I missing?
The blem issue? Selling stuff that you say is blemished shows that therebis more concern for money then quality. Does Porsche sell a blem car? Nope, because everything that has their name on it is top quality and they say so. Same for the top gun makers. It cost more to roll the blems out of the sale stock and either scrap them or suck up the loss. But then the level of quality is never in question......
Well if product X was bad it was probably a blem and you knew what you were getting into.
I don't know why Pat was banned. I know being banned isn't always indicative of an objective wrong though.
Not a Pat or Mac fanboy, but there is a disconnect for me that all these famous big cheese guys fronting BCM are being dishonest.
He had a permanent ban...... not a time out
Doc Safari
06-14-19, 11:34
It has always bothered me in the background that a lot of the members that were here in 2010 when I joined are no longer here. I watched rob_s get banned and I think he had it coming, but there are other members who used to post that haven't been back in ages.
Related to what we're talking about? Or not? I don't know.
The blem issue? Selling stuff that you say is blemished shows that therebis more concern for money then quality. Does Porsche sell a blem car? Nope, because everything that has their name on it is top quality and they say so. Same for the top gun makers. It cost more to roll the blems out of the sale stock and either scrap them or suck up the loss. But then the level of quality is never in question......
Well if product X was bad it was probably a blem and you knew what you were getting into.
Got it. Can't say as I disagree. Wonder if they have a justification for their ways that doesn't revolve around money? Probably never know.
He had a permanent ban...... not a time out
So a permanent ban indicating a most serious screw up I take it?
He had a permanent ban...... not a time out
Maybe they should update the forum ID tag from SME / MEMBER / BANNED / etc and add TRAINING TIME OUT #1/2/3/4, TTO1, 2, 3, etc.
So BANNED and Temper Tantrums are denoted separately. ;)
Eurodriver
06-14-19, 14:09
Maybe they should update the forum ID tag from SME / MEMBER / BANNED / etc and add TRAINING TIME OUT #1/2/3/4, TTO1, 2, 3, etc.
So BANNED and Temper Tantrums are denoted separately. ;)
Not enough characters available for all the bans some of us have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaFOZAwspYI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaFOZAwspYI
RobertTheTexan
06-14-19, 16:23
It has always bothered me in the background that a lot of the members that were here in 2010 when I joined are no longer here. I watched rob_s get banned and I think he had it coming, but there are other members who used to post that haven't been back in ages.
Related to what we're talking about? Or not? I don't know.
Related? Nope. We are talking about (((BCM))).
But isn’t this how forums and life goes? Guys who had time to post and Chet today, have life changes that effect their priorities. Some guys who were single and living That Gun Life get married or have kids...soldiers deployed or who had recently redeployed back home, but they were connecting here with other likeminded soldiers/veterans/civilians etc. Things change. People change. Priorities change.
Gonna chase a rabbit here. My own forum posting has changed a lot over this past year. It’s probably weird, but after getting the MoY award I felt like if I continued to post like I was it may be perceived that I’m chasing something or just full of myself need to post less because I didn’t want to seem.. idk full of myself. So I purposefully stepped back. I didn’t like it because I do like to help and pay it forward and if I’m not paying a part forward the only thing I can pay is what I’ve learned.
And this also has jackshit to do with this thread. But back to your question, I think priorities change in people’s lives. Things that take precedence today, are bottom of the sea tomorrow.
I for one enjoy going back through the archives and reading those old posts. Especially when our finest was across the pond deployed. Some of the info shared is still relevant and valuable. I’ve said it before but it sure seems like there were a lot more guys building AR’s back then.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Doc Safari
06-14-19, 16:27
Related? Nope. We are talking about (((BCM))).
But isn’t this how forums and life goes? Guys who had time to post and Chet today, have life changes that effect their priorities.
It's true. When I had AK's I posted on AK forums. When I joined this forum it was after switching back to AR's. Now that my AR collection is reaching completion I'll start posting more in handgun forums probably.
But I think there are members that just get disgusted for one way or another and move on, too.
Pat Rogers was banned from here. That says a lot and one of main reasons i am here.
Thats why some of us don't believe your drivel.
Thats why some of us don't believe your drivel.
And what do you mean by that?
Eurodriver
06-14-19, 21:19
And what do you mean by that?
You’re too extreme is my guess. Why do you prefer PSA over BCM?
You’re too extreme is my guess. Why do you prefer PSA over BCM?
Because they are the same level of quality, except the FN CHF barrels are very good. One you pay for what you get and the other you pay for a name and get the good feeling that cool people say it is good. That ain't cheap.
BCM quality has improved as they have brought more and more production in house. If doc wants to make comments without documenting the reasons, that is at his own discretion. I’ve seen plenty of weapons come through a large PD armory of on and off duty weapons, and BCM has never been an issue. Comparing that with the comments online, persons I know using the weapons, and other industry sources, I have a hard time buying that BCM would be a problem company or weapon. I work with them because of their known quality, and did so before I did anything with them in a paid capacity.
I won’t get into inside industry info on a public forum, but we have fired large, well known, highly respected industry clients in the past, and would again if needed. Personally speaking, the reputation I have is based on the decades of MIL, LE, Armorer, FIA, and especially photography (and writing). It wouldn’t be worth it to deal with clown clients, not when it’s my name involved. I’ll happily stand by Paul and his company. Good guy, good company.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaFOZAwspYI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaFOZAwspYI
I don't put much stock in this video.
Not to say that's not what it's like on a daily basis, but it just reminds me of how employees always tighten up when they are going to be observed doing their work.
BCM quality has improved as they have brought more and more production in house. If doc wants to make comments without documenting the reasons, that is at his own discretion. I’ve seen plenty of weapons come through a large PD armory of on and off duty weapons, and BCM has never been an issue. Comparing that with the comments online, persons I know using the weapons, and other industry sources, I have a hard time buying that BCM would be a problem company or weapon. I work with them because of their known quality, and did so before I did anything with them in a paid capacity.
I won’t get into inside industry info on a public forum, but we have fired large, well known, highly respected industry clients in the past, and would again if needed. Personally speaking, the reputation I have is based on the decades of MIL, LE, Armorer, FIA, and especially photography (and writing). It wouldn’t be worth it to deal with clown clients, not when it’s my name involved. I’ll happily stand by Paul and his company. Good guy, good company.
I have documented it in the past. And then it get removed and disparaging remarkes are made by who? By people that get paid by BCM. Let me guess...... you have never received any money from them. Oh wait, you said that you did receive money from them............
This is the tactic, people how get paid by BCM troll the web trying to atrack thkse that are not on the bandwagon. Why, because they are linked to their financial success.
I am more then happy to discuss specific situations but the same stuff has been happening for years...... the fanboys and the paid trolls will come out of the woodwork and spam the crap out of everything until nobody can see what the real story is.
I don't put much stock in this video.
Not to say that's not what it's like on a daily basis, but it just reminds me of how employees always tighten up when they are going to be observed doing their work.
I would if it would have started with this is a paid advertisement. ;)
I have two BCM uppers that have run great - 3K through a 16" BFH ELW and 1500 through a 11.5 ELW-F (nearly all of it suppressed).
Never had any upper related issues (defective trigger once and a fouled magazine caused a couple of stoppages in a class - large stone was binding the follower.
Maybe I'm a sucker and should dumpster dive to a PSA because fanbois say so. Maybe I'm a cheapskate and should buy more expensive stuff because fanbois say so.
Then again, some people love drama and need to find is somewhere.
It's the internet, buyer beware.
RobertTheTexan
06-14-19, 22:57
Monty, I’ll choose door #1 that has a former door kicking terrorist killing badass.
But that’s just me.
RobertTheTexan
06-14-19, 23:09
[QUOTE=Benellinut;2743618]
Deleted my post because other than a buffer spring question I could not understand how we got to reloading ammo and drilling hoes in ammo.
Benellinut
06-14-19, 23:12
The blem issue? Selling stuff that you say is blemished shows that therebis more concern for money then quality. Does Porsche sell a blem car? Nope, because everything that has their name on it is top quality and they say so. Same for the top gun makers. It cost more to roll the blems out of the sale stock and either scrap them or suck up the loss. But then the level of quality is never in question......
Well if product X was bad it was probably a blem and you knew what you were getting into.
"Does Porsche sell a blem car? Nope"
Those are likely used for the crash tests.
I worked at BCM and almost none here have. Your observations are incorrect.
I think BCM is the Arsenal of AR's. When they were a small shop with time to source, QC, and build everything with attention to detail, they were great. Filthy 14 was an example. I think as they expanded, though, they started to commit the sins that companies often commit when they expand, and that's where they are now. I'm basing that on reading threads on the gun boards. My 2010-2011 vintage BCM's were fantastic.
That's almost funny and shows your lack of knowledge. I literally just had a factory PSA upper in my class about 10 days ago with a CHF barrel. Most of the upper was installed wrong, to include the gas block. The BCG was mediocre as well.
Because they are the same level of quality, except the FN CHF barrels are very good. One you pay for what you get and the other you pay for a name and get the good feeling that cool people say it is good. That ain't cheap.
Doc Safari
06-15-19, 08:42
I know some people here dnot like this source but I found this interesting:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ar-15-10-best-2019-who-made-list-62712&ved=2ahUKEwjo4ceJzuviAhXNsJ4KHTalDXsQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0E3GRBD5Q-zV2nu978rJIh&cshid=1560605970855
The blem issue? Selling stuff that you say is blemished shows that therebis more concern for money then quality. Does Porsche sell a blem car? Nope, because everything that has their name on it is top quality and they say so. Same for the top gun makers. It cost more to roll the blems out of the sale stock and either scrap them or suck up the loss. But then the level of quality is never in question......
Well if product X was bad it was probably a blem and you knew what you were getting into.
I dunno, it depends what the blem is. I buy other, none firearm, product blems all the time and never had an issue. I've even seen car blems for sale.
If a firearm manufacturer screwed up the finish and selling as a blem I have no prob buying that as the finish is irrelevant to me. I buy scratch and dent products all the time and 99% of the time you can't tell till it's pointed out. Cars are no different. Seen plenty of brand new cars that were discounted because they got caught in a hail storm during transport.
I have no dog in this. Only own a couple Colts.
If in fact the negative reviews are deleted (about anything) I find it a little disturbing considering this is the place one comes for unbiased reviews and where "do your research" is often the first thing said when a new guy asks a question
That's almost funny and shows your like of knowledge. I literally just had a factory PSA upper in my class about 10 days ago with a CHF barrel. Most of the upper was installed wrong, to include the gas block. The BCG was mediocre as well.
Yes i do Like knowledge. And again. Thank you for proving my point.
snackgunner
06-15-19, 09:22
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/757/498/89c.gif
I am done with this. Everytime I try and help people by telling the truth I get personal attacks..... and look who they sre from.
If anyone want to know specifics please PM me.
Good luck and be warned.
Honestly I’ll take docsherm and his liking of knowledge in a goddam firefight in the Bluff anyday with his kit over some lameass BCM build and the whole “akchually” vanilla culture that goes along with it.
Big facts.
Go stake that castle nut.
Peace.
Got the action spring and installed it today. Actually, it was the same length as the original spring, but replaced it anyway. Now I'm good to go. Will shoot it tomorrow.
Everyone else who wishes to continue arguing, carry on.
Yeah, sorry I made a spelling error. Having just come back from 3 weeks on the road teaching classes, you will have to forgive me.
Yes i do Like knowledge. And again. Thank you for proving my point.
No one personally attacked you, so get off it. Your posts literally make no sense. You claim vast knowledge of BCM and shills, etc... yet you offer nothing.
You seem to compare PSA to BCM at every chance and virtually proclaiming they are equal yet you have no knowledge of BCM, what they make or what they buy, etc..
I then give another reference to substandard PSA parts/assembly and you want to dismiss it.
I am done with this. Everytime I try and help people by telling the truth I get personal attacks..... and look who they sre from.
If anyone want to know specifics please PM me.
Good luck and be warned.
PSA is trash
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190615/9028af8fb8931bf73ccb1330018f0e08.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Honestly I’ll take docsherm and his liking of knowledge in a goddam firefight in the Bluff anyday with his kit over some lameass BCM build and the whole “akchually” vanilla culture that goes along with it.
Big facts.
Go stake that castle nut.
Peace.
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FxThuW4BaAA2f7nRvoc%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1
Eurodriver
06-15-19, 15:37
I’m so confused.
M4C is broken.
Olympus has fallen.
The chair is against the wall.
I’m so confused.
M4C is broken.
Olympus has fallen.
The chair is against the wall.
All must die to be reborn.
Wake the fck up, Samurai.
We have a city to burn
https://66.media.tumblr.com/169412204ee48b0b877a0bef5d7206a2/tumblr_psv270Sjh31ufjdtto3_250.gif
Doc Safari
06-15-19, 15:50
M4C is broken
Not the fault of the owner , though.
Honestly I’ll take docsherm and his liking of knowledge in a goddam firefight in the Bluff anyday with his kit over some lameass BCM build and the whole “akchually” vanilla culture that goes along with it.
Big facts.
Go stake that castle nut.
Peace.
Steak [emoji3052]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No one personally attacked you, so get off it. Your posts literally make no sense. You claim vast knowledge of BCM and shills, etc... yet you offer nothing.
You seem to compare PSA to BCM at every chance and virtually proclaiming they are equal yet you have no knowledge of BCM, what they make or what they buy, etc..
I then give another reference to substandard PSA parts/assembly and you want to dismiss it.
I was going to take it to PM but since you asked ........
My point is that those that speak the loudest in defense of BCM have BOTH admitted to receiving payments from BCM. If I am wrong please correct me.
That is my point. It is not possible to get an unbiased opinion when there is a conflict of interest.
Pat Rogers was banned from here. That says a lot and one of main reasons i am here.
You. In the street at noon. Bring your friends. How dare you. You are hereby kicked out of consideration for a lego action figure.
(If it says anything for me, I was banned from Lightfighter)
Seriously, I'm sure Pat Rogers was a good guy in his own way, and I'm sorry he passed, but he, as I've said before, he played to the crowd too much for my taste.
Maybe we should take some time off and get out to relax a wee bit. Son is in town, enjoying the time off, it's short boys--
Had to put this one back in, shrimp thief!
http://i.imgur.com/Fv7mX1D.jpg (https://imgur.com/Fv7mX1D)
http://i.imgur.com/qdiPEpD.jpg (https://imgur.com/qdiPEpD)
BravoCompanyUSA
06-15-19, 16:12
I was sent this thread and only quickly scanned it.
BCM rifles are not rebranded anything. Any statement alluding to that is false.
The Gunfighters in BCM’s Gunfighter program are NOT paid. Any statement alluding to that is false.
Also slanderous to their character and integrity. Anyone is welcome to ask any of them. Please take one of their classes and discuss at length.
(Full disclosure: BCM has sponsored Vickers Tactical TV since its first year in 2011, I think?, even when he was working with DD)
BCM has its own engineering, prints, TDP, production lines, and industry leading QC/QA system. Some of the most significant parts of our QA system has been adopted into parts of the USGI supply chain, which we were happy to provide freely.
Any BCM “Blem” is a COSMETIC Blem. A mechanical blem at BCM is called scrap.
BCM products are in use by US Forces, OGAs, DOD and Fed contractors, US allies, law enforcement, and great freedom loving Americans.
Cutting out the office now for Fathers Day Weekend. Hope everyone has a good one.
All the best,
Paul
If a company sells Blems be suspicious about the rest of their products. That means they are so bad that they know people will catch them.
I'm late to this parade, hope you are still here to read this. :jester:
I've predominantly used BCM stripped blem/demo uppers in builds. Probably at least a dozen or so by now. They are IMO, an excellent value for the price. I've really never found a blem, nor evidence of them being demo's and therefore, presumably being disassembled. And if they were demos, what happened to the logo? Granted, my purchase of a dozen or so, does not necessarily mean I've gotten anything but blems.
After giving it some thought, and, please understand, I have nothing concrete to back this up, I believe the blem/demo stripped uppers are a way for BCM to move product at a lower price by simply leaving off the BCM logo. Of course, I could be full of po po.
I'm happy with them, though, and will continue to buy use them as my go to stripped upper.
My only disappointment is that I've used Green Mountain, Sionics, Ballistic Advantage, Faxon (IIRC) and WOA barrels on various builds, and I've never had to heat the receiver to get the extension to seat.
Oh, well, I'm happy.
Renegade04
06-15-19, 17:19
I was sent this thread and only quickly scanned it.
BCM rifles are not rebranded anything. Any statement alluding to that is false.
The Gunfighters in BCM’s Gunfighter program are NOT paid. Any statement alluding to that is false.
Also slanderous to their character and integrity. Anyone is welcome to ask any of them. Please take one of their classes and discuss at length.
(Full disclosure: BCM has sponsored Vickers Tactical TV since its first year in 2011, I think?, even when he was working with DD)
BCM has its own engineering, prints, TDP, production lines, and industry leading QC/QA system. Some of the most significant parts of our QA system has been adopted into parts of the USGI supply chain, which we were happy to provide freely.
Any BCM “Blem” is a COSMETIC Blem. A mechanical blem at BCM is called scrap.
BCM products are in use by US Forces, OGAs, DOD and Fed contractors, US allies, law enforcement, and great freedom loving Americans.
Cutting out the office now for Fathers Day Weekend. Hope everyone has a good one.
All the best,
Paul
BRAVO! :)
Maybe I'm a sucker and should dumpster dive to a PSA because fanbois say so. Maybe I'm a cheapskate and should buy more expensive stuff because fanbois say so.
This was posted on ARFCOM by the guy that runs Battlefield Las Vegas, when he's talking round counts on these PSA's he is talking full auto round counts:
As for people have asked about the Palmetto State Armory uppers, another one of the PSA bolts broke yesterday as well. It was in a 11.5" upper and the bolt cracked in half at the cam pin section. This particular complete upper assembly went into service on 14 MAR 15. I checked the maintenance log and less than one month after the rifle going on the line, it had to have a cam pin replaced (cracked) and the extractor replaced on 02 APR 15. The weapon was taken out of service on 25 MAY 15 for "short stroking" by the RSO's. After an armorer had a chance to examine the rifle, it was actually a broken gas key in addition to two of the gas key eroding away. A new gas key and gas rings were installed and it went back into service. The staff didn't make any additional notes (other than headspace which was still good to go) during the days of maintenance until the bolt broke yesterday.
The PSA rifle is more of a "favorite" of the guys because they are fairly new, still look clean (though looking clean has ZERO to do with function and ALL about the customer's perception of a good or bad gun) and give a big flash and bang for the customer experience. It has seen almost daily service since going into service in March. We started doing the numbers on this rifle and here's a quick breakdown on a fair to conservative break down on round count.
It's fair to say that every M4 on the line sees a minimum of 250 rounds per day (and that's being VERY conservative). Take that number and average that to six days a week because they take it out of service one day each week for cleaning and maintenance (even then, once cleaned it goes directly back on the line). That would give us 26 days per month of use and it almost made it 6 complete months until the bolt completely broke. That averages out to 39,000 rounds of use for that upper assembly until the bolt broke and suffered a complete catastrophic failure. Because the bolt did break, the armorers checked the throat erosion (no issues) because they wanted to see for themselves how well it's handled.
We talked about the quality of the upper as a whole after all the notes were written down in the maintenance log. They asked me my opinion about the quality and if I would purchase more. I told them for what I paid for the complete upper (it's the "premium" model with the CHF barrel), the amount of use we got out of it AND that we will still get use out of it with the addition of another bolt, I would definitely purchase more.
I'm not thinking PSA is the Bugatti of AR parts and accessories, just as the aren't the Yugo. What they are is middle of the road acceptable.
Renegade04
06-15-19, 17:23
Thought I would post a positive post about my Bravo Company Mod 0 rifle I bought new a few years ago. Was cleaning it this weekend after an AR competition we have at my club once a month, and realized I have over 3,000 rounds through it!
It has run perfect from day one! I have not had one FTF or FTE in over 3K rounds. Always goes bang. Only mods are a Magpul sling and an Aimpoint PRO red dot sight. It has been fed factory PMC and Federal .223 ammo. I clean it every 500-600 rounds or so. When taking it apart, the tail of the bolt isn't too carbon'd up (never took a tool to it), the gas rings look good, the barrel cleans up quickly with WipeOut, etc.
Just for fun, I did order this weekend a new extractor, extractor spring and rubber, gas rings, cam pin and cotter pin for the firing pin from BCM. None of these items are excessively worn, just a little preventative maint. on the BCG to go another 3-4K rounds.
Couldn't be happier with the BCM carbine!! Sorry, nothing to complain about :)
Congrats on owning a fine BCM product. The performance is what I would expect from BCM. I have a Jack Carbine and a Mid-16 Mod 2 that are superb weapons. I have been using BCM products, including barrels, for several years and have never been let down.
I'm not thinking PSA is the Bugatti of AR parts and accessories, just as the aren't the Yugo. What they are is middle of the road acceptable.
Didn't mean to hurt your sensibilities with my pointed sarcasm. ;)
Who wee, I go and shoot a 3gun and the thread goes nuclear. I hope everyone is good.
This was posted on ARFCOM by the guy that runs Battlefield Las Vegas, when he's talking round counts on these PSA's he is talking full auto round counts:
SNIP
That would give us 26 days per month of use and it almost made it 6 complete months until the bolt completely broke. That averages out to 39,000 rounds of use for that upper assembly until the bolt broke and suffered a complete catastrophic failure. Because the bolt did break, the armorers checked the throat erosion (no issues) because they wanted to see for themselves how well it's handled.
SNIP
39000 rounds of full auto 5.56/.223 on a bolt and without significant throat erosion borders on miraculous/unbelievable.
Andy
Didn't mean to hurt your sensibilities with my pointed sarcasm. ;)
I was triggered, I felt impotent. To regain stature I went out and kicked a dog. Unfortunately it was Rebel, my female GSD. Reno, my male GSD, took offense. I'm writing this from an examine table in the ER.
39000 rounds of full auto 5.56/.223 on a bolt and without significant throat erosion borders on miraculous/unbelievable.
Andy
I think some of it is due to heat cycles - if you read the thread on TOS, they essentially run a 25 round mag per customer. I'm sure some shoot more, but I infer that is the basic package. I'd ass-u-me that the AR has time to cool down before the next customer.
So, is Colt still good? :blink:
snackgunner
06-15-19, 18:51
talking bad about bcm on a forum sponsored by bcm ? :secret:
So, is Colt still good? :blink:
What I’ve gotten from this site recently is that I should sell my BCM Mod 0 and Colt LE 6920-OEM2 and simply trash the PSA upper, because only the frankenguns can be trusted to work.
just a scout
06-15-19, 19:41
I think this whole thread is ridiculous. I have BCMs, and after a few years, I own them exclusively. I have blemished lowers, one had a scratch that looked like a tool slip. WGAF? Function has always been perfect, 1 malfunction when I let the oil run dry during a class. BCM makes the gun I wish I had on AD. I didn’t have the same luck with Colt, MI and DD. Maybe my story is different or odd, but I’ll stick with what I know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
There are multiple sponsors here on M4C, not just BCM.
talking bad about bcm on a forum sponsored by bcm ? :secret:
snackgunner
06-15-19, 20:20
There are multiple sponsors here on M4C, not just BCM.
and how many of them are active sponsors? do all sponsors contribute the same amount of money to advertise on here?
bcm seems to have the biggest banners / advertisements on this site, especially the one at the top of the page
I've got a couple BCM uppers, and one complete BCM rifle (that doesn't get used much). None of them have ever had a malfunction of any kind.
I've got a couple higher end Colts, as well as a basic 6920. None of them have ever had a malfunction of any kind.
I've got a PSA Premium with CHF barrel. It's never had a malfunction of any kind (though it's got a lower round count then the above).
I guess I should sell them all and get a couple KACs.
To the OP.....I'm glad your BCM is running well, and I expect nothing less. To those that believe BCM is hobby grade trash......I'd be interested in reading a well documented tear-down showing the deficiencies (from a fully vetted, independent, industry professional. Until that is provided, it's just yet another opinion.
Paul, thanks for chiming in. I couldn't be happier with the Mod 0 rifle as I said originally (with exactly 3,400 rounds through it, I checked). I live in your neck of the woods and shoot with a few of your employees at Daniel Boone in the AR competitions (rain or shine). Seeing two of your guys shooting the 2 man team rounds is impressive. Seeing guys emptying the better part of a 60 round Surefire mag in ~ 45 sec is impressive (and getting rounds on target). The rifles are literally smoking for a good minute after the round ends and are crazy hot (and these are with what look to be your lightweight barrels). Never seen one of your rifles have a failure in these conditions, including mine. In general, the guns that folks have issues with (and some do every time) are the Frankenguns they built. BCM's, Colt's, etc. run fine.
Thanks for the comments!
I forgot about a minor issue my BCM lower had https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?191870-Bolt-catch-release-loss-of-spring-tension&highlight=
I don’t think this had anything to do with it being a blem; I’m pretty sure the blem was the non-PNT trigger and they were trying to sell old lowers with the regular trigger. Anyway, BCM fixed the issue quickly and I haven’t had a problem in the ~1300 rounds since then.
and how many of them are active sponsors? do all sponsors contribute the same amount of money to advertise on here?
bcm seems to have the biggest banners / advertisements on this site, especially the one at the top of the page
I don't really think that is any of our business.
Whoever owns the site, I assume it is G&R, has to pay out the money for the servers to run this site. From my involvement moderating on another site, that can get pricey.
I enjoy the site, have never done business with G&R, so I choose to be a site sponsor.
I'm pretty sure they are not adverse to the site paying for itself. :)
JMO
ETA: I think sometimes folks that do this AR ownership/business/hobby thing the way I do are misunderstood. I evaluate quality needed versus price on most purchases. I've always bought C-158 BCG's, I generally go with Toolcraft because I don't feel I need the added comfort/quality of the bolt being test-fired, and each bolt being HPT'ed at a higher price. Others do want that assurance, more power to them. I'll be all over BCM BCG's (blem or otherwise) like white on rice, or stink on pooh, when they price them below $100.00.
I do the same thin with barrels, generally GMB, over other brands, but if the price is right I'm all over BA, Sionics, etc.
LPK's are kind of a sore spot with me, it seems that prices are kind of all over the place. A couple years ago I bought 6 or 8 Stag LPK's on sale, I think at Christmas time. Before that I had used PSA with their premium trigger. Before that I had used Brownell's. Currently, I pretty piece the LPK's together out of my parts boxes, there are so many OEM parts I don't use - bolt catch, safety, mag release, trigger, that I just make sure I have plenty of pins, springs, and detents. Once again price me a BCM, Sionics, etc. LPK with their good trigger at 60.00 and I'll be all over them, and be glad to put the safeties and mag releases in the parts boxes.
Quality needed versus price, best price at the quality I perceive is adequate, is where I'm sailing.
I do have a couple of PSA lowers sitting on build right now - they are hopefully going to be someone else's soon. That isn't because I think they are junk - I just don't care for the logo.
That's almost funny and shows your lack of knowledge. I literally just had a factory PSA upper in my class about 10 days ago with a CHF barrel. Most of the upper was installed wrong, to include the gas block. The BCG was mediocre as well.
Specifically, what was installed incorrectly?
That's almost funny and shows your lack of knowledge. I literally just had a factory PSA upper in my class about 10 days ago with a CHF barrel. Most of the upper was installed wrong, to include the gas block. The BCG was mediocre as well.
Did you happen to notice if the muzzle had a false shoulder preventing installation of 1/2” suppressor shims?
I have 3 BCM lowers mated with different uppers....never bought a complete rifle... 2 are the standard midlengths with FSB...the other is a BFH..
No issues with any of them.. One lower is a blem from G&R.
RobertTheTexan
06-16-19, 15:32
Maybe we should take some time off and get out to relax a wee bit. Son is in town, enjoying the time off, it's short boys--
Had to put this one back in, shrimp thief!
http://i.imgur.com/Fv7mX1D.jpg (https://imgur.com/Fv7mX1D)
http://i.imgur.com/qdiPEpD.jpg (https://imgur.com/qdiPEpD)
I can’t believe you didn’t take that whopper to your local taxidermist...
:jester: [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji225][emoji228]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Barrel and gas block weren't dimpled.
No Loctite on the set screws as I recall.
The gas block had a slight cant which was striking the key.
The Chinesium inspired rail felt cheap (the owner was going to check the barrel nut/upper for anti-seize).
Extractor did not have the black insert.
Overall it's the same quality I have been seeing for a few years and never gets better.
Specifically, what was installed incorrectly?
Nope. We were looking at super obvious stuff and didn't mess with the muzzle device.
Did you happen to notice if the muzzle had a false shoulder preventing installation of 1/2” suppressor shims?
Bravo Company makes wonderful stuff, no doubt. Glad everything has worked out well for you! :)
Well, got all the new bits installed on the BCM, and took it to the range with some other guns to test drive it. Ran a quick 20 rounds through it just to test function, and it ran as it always has (i.e. I didn't screw up installing any of the new BCG items or action spring). Now on to the next 4,000 rounds!
As a new guy here, permit me simply to ask:What the F**ck is is happening?? ?We have a guy who has "subject matter expert" shitting all over Bravo Company.The AR General Discussion is sponsored by BCM.What the fu.**k is going on?
Well, BCM is certainly squashing the idea that critical threads are verboten.
titsonritz
06-16-19, 19:31
Barrel and gas block weren't dimpled.
The gas block had a slight cant which was striking the key.
The Chinesium inspired rail felt cheap (the owner was going to check the barrel nut/upper for anti-seize).
Extractor did not have the black insert.
Overall it's the same quality I have been seeing for a few years and never gets better.
Was that the one the owner said he didn't want to spend more than $100 because he could get a new one for that? :lol:
SteveAU -quiet, the adults are talking.
I don't know what to make of all this. This is, primarily, an AR forum and a SME is giving what should be an expert opinion on the quality of the brand. I would have to think that docsherm is a bona fide expert of the platform to hold that SME credential on this forum. After all, there are plenty of extremely knowledgeable members on this forum that don't have this title. Given that doc's opinion seems to be in stark contrast to other "SME" types on this forum, I can only speculate on what happens next.
Time will tell. I can only hope that the thread stays intact after it eventually goes to page two. That will say a lot about the skin thickness of BCM. And I'm referring to the idea that BCM does not allow critical product reviews on their webpage, which makes sense as to why there aren't ANY.
Well, BCM is certainly squashing the idea that critical threads are verboten.
Don't Tread On Me
06-17-19, 10:17
Time will tell. I can only hope that the thread stays intact after it eventually goes to page two. That will say a lot about the skin thickness of BCM.
FYI, we’re on page 11.
That being said, I have no dog in this fight as I’ve owned a variety of items to include rails, uppers, lowers, furniture, LPKs, etc, from the likes of Spikes, DD, BCM, Noveske, Geissele and the list goes on. Spikes is the only one on that list that I’ve had a product that I have been disappointed with.
FYI, when threads cease activity they fall down the page until they get bumped to page two, three, etc.. That's when things get a little less noticeable.
FYI, we’re on page 11.
That being said, I have no dog in this fight as I’ve owned a variety of items to include rails, uppers, lowers, furniture, LPKs, etc, from the likes of Spikes, DD, BCM, Noveske, Geissele and the list goes on. Spikes is the only one on that list that I’ve had a product that I have been disappointed with.
Don't Tread On Me
06-17-19, 10:22
Gotcha. Misunderstanding on my part.
556BlackRifle
06-17-19, 10:25
I think he means when the thread eventually goes off the main forum page. I don't expect it to be deleted or modified. Anyone who reads it in it's entirety will get the full story with Paul's response rebutting all the trash talk. No reason not to let it stand.
Somebody explain to my why there's the occasional snarky comment that BCM is "hobby grade crap." I always thought they were at the top of the famous chart. I never had one issue with one of their rifles, and I owned several. The only minor criticism I ever had for BCM is that usually their guns are just barely less accurate than a Colt. I'd still trust my life to one. Why the hate from some people?
For the record, I am a Colt and BCM distributor (very few of us out there). Colt makes a fantastic firearm and is the standard (at what they do). With that said, BCM's attention to detail, QC and the quality of the company (specifically the owner) is second to known. So nothing "hobby grade" about BCM and I just wish I could share more "classified info" about the company (as in who buys their stuff, inspections, etc).
C4
I am not trying to be "that guy" but I dont see people forsaking LMTs, Colts, KAC, and HKs for BCM.
Doc Safari
06-17-19, 11:39
For the record, I am a Colt and BCM distributor (very few of us out there). Colt makes a fantastic firearm and is the standard (at what they do). With that said, BCM's attention to detail, QC and the quality of the company (specifically the owner) is second to known. So nothing "hobby grade" about BCM and I just wish I could share more "classified info" about the company (as in who buys their stuff, inspections, etc).
C4
I've actually had QC issues with Colts that I never had with BCM. I have a couple of Colt 6720's and I had to change the bolt rings on one after exactly one range session. It looked like the monkey who assembled the rings on the bolt had kinked one of them. I couldn't get it back in the bolt carrier even smacking it with the heel of my hand and just decided to swap out all three rings. I also had a different rifle with a bent firing pin retaining pin that I replaced.
I never had any such issue with a BCM and over the years you could say I've owned about an equal number of both (but not all at once).
I am not trying to be "that guy" but I dont see people forsaking LMTs, Colts, KAC, and HKs for BCM.
Well, LMT / KAC / HK really don't compete with BCM.
Meaning DI with midlength gas AR15s with multiple barrel contour options, from lightweight to Gov't profile, under $1500, and readily available.
HK really doesn't even offer a decent 556 rifle to the US that isn't a complete clusterfak / abortion of random changes, do they? For the cost of an MR556-piggy or whatever they call it these days, I'd take a Colt / BCM or two, fully kitted out. Or at the very least I'd spend it with KAC.
Colt allowed themselves to be gotten on the civie side by sticking with carbine gas, Gov't profile, and FSB for that last decade. They have made some strides but even then they dropped one of the best things they had going (LE6920-R Trooper) IMO.
By all account KAC is great, but whether the majority of shooters can translate that into results for the 2-3 x cost is highly debatable. Sure, plenty of cudos on the interwebz of pristine rifles and if I had an unlimited budget, I'd have 2 x SR15s & 2 x SR25s in the safe today - but I don't, so I don't.
And besides, most guys sell rifles every other month "as the mood strikes them" or after "changing directions", and are fine with hobby grade 'builds' that keep the wife off their a$$ since they can still make rent & car payments.
In the end, people will believe what they want to believe. Personally I have had good service with my 2 x BCM uppers, so much so that 1 has been my go to for several years. I take my results and tend to believe that they are a solid, duty grade rifle that can compete with Colts and DD in the $1000-1500 price range.
You literally just described Hobby Grade.....
I've actually had QC issues with Colts that I never had with BCM. I have a couple of Colt 6720's and I had to change the bolt rings on one after exactly one range session. It looked like the monkey who assembled the rings on the bolt had kinked one of them. I couldn't get it back in the bolt carrier even smacking it with the heel of my hand and just decided to swap out all three rings. I also had a different rifle with a bent firing pin retaining pin that I replaced.
I never had any such issue with a BCM and over the years you could say I've owned about an equal number of both (but not all at once).
The issue with Colt is the union workers. They don't always care about F&F or using the right parts on that specific model lol. Everyone at BCM loves their job and what they do....
C4
everready73
06-17-19, 11:59
For the record, I am a Colt and BCM distributor (very few of us out there). Colt makes a fantastic firearm and is the standard (at what they do). With that said, BCM's attention to detail, QC and the quality of the company (specifically the owner) is second to known. So nothing "hobby grade" about BCM and I just wish I could share more "classified info" about the company (as in who buys their stuff, inspections, etc).
C4
Some of the new videos from Larry Vickers like the factory tour show some of the testing and qc they do. Seems like they have some really innovative stuff and that is only what they are showing the public. I have no reason not to trust BCM and have been in a few arguments on TOS where some seem to be thinking BCM is falling apart. New flavor every week
You literally just described Hobby Grade.....
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FisP4TLqhjm3zq%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1
As I mentioned earlier, I shoot with a few of the guys who work at Bravo Company. I can attest as C4 mentioned that these folks do like where they work, what they do and take pride in their company and products (seems like a company I wouldn't mind working for). Also, having a bit of background in manufacturing, I'm a little familiar with quality systems good manufacturers use such go/no-go gauges in assembly cells, optical comparitors, CMM's (kept in a climate controlled room on the floor), etc. in the production of a consistent product, and BCM would appear to use many of these modern manufacturing/assembly tools.
I didn't mean to start a pi$$ing contest, but just wanted to say I have a product that has delivered exactly what was promised. I didn't say that to the exclusion of any other similar quality AR's, just that I have a BCM AR that Paul, Troy, Tony and the other folks at BCM made that has met my expectations - not something that always happens in life.
And yes, it is an anecdotal sample size of 1. I took statistics too.
Cheers!
Some of the new videos from Larry Vickers like the factory tour show some of the testing and qc they do. Seems like they have some really innovative stuff and that is only what they are showing the public. I have no reason not to trust BCM and have been in a few arguments on TOS where some seem to be thinking BCM is falling apart. New flavor every week
Yes, the video's give you just a "glimpse" into all the QC that goes on at BCM (that probably none of their competitors do).
C4
Well, LMT / KAC / HK really don't compete with BCM.
Meaning DI with midlength gas AR15s with multiple barrel contour options, from lightweight to Gov't profile, under $1500, and readily available.
HK really doesn't even offer a decent 556 rifle to the US that isn't a complete clusterfak / abortion of random changes, do they? For the cost of an MR556-piggy or whatever they call it these days, I'd take a Colt / BCM or two, fully kitted out. Or at the very least I'd spend it with KAC.
Colt allowed themselves to be gotten on the civie side by sticking with carbine gas, Gov't profile, and FSB for that last decade. They have made some strides but even then they dropped one of the best things they had going (LE6920-R Trooper) IMO.
By all account KAC is great, but whether the majority of shooters can translate that into results for the 2-3 x cost is highly debatable. Sure, plenty of cudos on the interwebz of pristine rifles and if I had an unlimited budget, I'd have 2 x SR15s & 2 x SR25s in the safe today - but I don't, so I don't.
And besides, most guys sell rifles every other month "as the mood strikes them" or after "changing directions", and are fine with hobby grade 'builds' that keep the wife off their a$$ since they can still make rent & car payments.
In the end, people will believe what they want to believe. Personally I have had good service with my 2 x BCM uppers, so much so that 1 has been my go to for several years. I take my results and tend to believe that they are a solid, duty grade rifle that can compete with Colts and DD in the $1000-1500 price range.
How is this a description of hobby grade?
BravoCompanyUSA
06-17-19, 13:32
Good Afternoon,
Hope you all had a great holiday weekend.
COSMETIC Blem
With any part there is generally a call out in the TDP for a:
• pre-plating dimension (with tolerances),
• plating dimensions (with tolerances),
• post plating dimensions (with tolerances)
Regarding a cosmetic blem (scratch etc on the surface), what is generally done in this industry and many others is to strip and re-anodize it. It is our understanding after dealing with most every major anodizing house in the country that we are the only company in the industry that does NOT allow the common practice of stripping and re-anodizing of parts. We have been told this repeatedly. (I have no way of verifying the absolute accuracy of that but it is an accepted industry practice)
However the stripping process will change the pre-plating dimensions outside the milspecs, TDP. (Think about IDs on trigger pins, take down pins, where the carrier rides- all now being slightly oversized. Think about exterior dimensions on pics rails, etc) So to get the re-finished product to the correct post plating dimensions, you would need to thicken the anodizing application beyond the milspec TDP, so then it’s not compliant either. Maybe no one would know, but we would. So instead of spending $4 to strip and refinish a part, we discount it for $50 to the customer. The customer gets a true milspec part.
However, this does NOT mean if your parts was a stripped, reworked, and re-plated part it’s going to fail. Quite frankly, strong possibility it won’t. However we feel the TDP is the industry bible. We stick to it. We can look anyone in the eye and say; Yes, BCM is 100% compliant.
A "mechanical blem" at BCM is called scrap.
Parts is Parts ?
I see a lot of “parts is parts” posts all over the internet, and there probably is no one in this industry that wishes that was true more than us. Life would be so much easier if that could be true. No more 80 hour work weeks, no more millions of dollars invested in continuous improvement on QA, and no more stress.
Not picking on anyone, as “parts is parts” is a initial default position to everyone with limited knowledge and experience. It was also my default position 30 years ago as a shooting enthusiast without experience in manufacturing. As I worked in the manufacturing industry I learned nothing could be further from the truth. The devil is always in the details. Metallurgy, process, tolerances – adherence and certification thereof can double the cost over a commercial grade part. It does not matter if you’re talking about barrels, BCG, or pistons and connecting rods, parts are not parts. We have probably made over a million firearms, parts, and accessories, so we are pretty experienced and efficient. We could not even build a BCM rifle/parts at the cost some others can retail. My guess is we may have more costs in QC/QA than some others have in the complete parts. Parts are not parts, but oh how I still wish it was true.
The rifle/parts you receive today are infinitely better quality than the same parts from the year before, and the year before that, etc, etc. Our RMA warranty data documents that. We are splicing up fractions of a percent. And the product/s will be better next year, and the year after that, etc, etc. The quality process is always (and will always be) in a continuous improvement cycle. As I stated in the previous post; We have our own engineering staff and designs, prints, TDP, tooling, production lines, and industry leading QC/QA system. IMHO I feel we are one of the leaders in quality of this industry (again just my opinion and it is subjective) but it is based on decades in this industry along with repeatedly working to support quality systems of other important industry and government players and suppliers.
We are not perfect and have made mistakes, however that immediately becomes a significant study into creating or amending processes such could not happen again.
NO Pay to Influencers
BCM has NEVER paid a YouTuber, author, poster, or influencer of any type for a review or post or communication of any type. That allegation is patently false and completely ridiculous.
(Full Disclosure: We are looking into and testing an affiliate link referral system, but have not implemented)
In fact BCM doesn’t have any sales reps (never has). We don’t even do SHOT Show. We have zero interest in being the biggest rifle company. So I don’t see any of that changing anytime soon. We do have a militant interest in the pursuit of being one of the best (and there are a number of great companies in the industry). The directive is to continuously improve, each day, month, each year.
NO Pay to Gunfighters
It is our fault as we don’t specifically continuously promote this fact, but I am going to state it with crystal clear clarity right now. The BCM Gunfighter program is a NON-compensated program. No one is paid. I say again, no one is paid. Take a good look at their bios. You can NOT buy their endorsement. That is ridiculous. To take it further, that program will NEVER be a paid program. It would not have any value (for obvious reasons).
The BCM Gunfighter program started informally about 12 years ago. We had relationships with a number of military shooting instructors, and asked them to field test various prototypes. “Tell me what is good, tell me what sucks” was the request over a decade ago and is still the ONLY request of the guys in the program now. And that is it. That is all it is. Anything they say about BCM (positive, neutral, or neg) is for them to decide. There are no talking points, there are no sales pitches, nothing. Just a simple “Tell me what is good, tell me what sucks”.
When we rebuilt/rebooted/relaunch our BCM website www.BravoCompanyMFG.com (in approx. 2011), we formalized the Gunfighter program as a way of talking about the trainers we work with. We feel in the long run, more folks with good training equals more pro 2A voters, safer communities, less public fear of black rifles, more empathy toward the professional warriors who are/have put their lives on the line, and a more sophisticated customer base. All good things for all involved.
Take a look BCM’s Gunfighter program. https://bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/index.php
Take a look at the American Gunfighter YT series. https://bravocompanymfg.com/american_gunfighter/
The BCM Gunfighter program is about people, and the fact that people are more important than products.
Everyone has their opinion, brand preference, and budget. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. There are a number of options for all differing quality and budget expectations.
Someone could slam BCM for only doing comms via email, or for not being the most cosmetically pretty rifle, or for a legit issue we screwed up. (We do not walk on water, we make mistakes) All fair. But to say BCM is “hobby grade, rebranded X”, paying shills, paying gunfighters, etc is absolutely false.
DocSherm, I am guessing you are a SME in the battlefield. As such we would all love to have you around in a firefight. However your SME title is not applicable to engineering and manufacturing. I admittedly did not read all your M4C posts, but in the couple I did – you are 180 degrees off the mark. I do not question your motives, (as I think you are a customer of ours) but I do question where you get your intel, as that is a very large amount of wrong info. Respectfully, you may want to reassess your intel channels. And you are always welcome to IM for clarification on anything.
Thank you all for reading.
All the best,
Paul
:)
BravoCompanyUSA
06-17-19, 13:42
Paul, thanks for chiming in. I couldn't be happier with the Mod 0 rifle as I said originally (with exactly 3,400 rounds through it, I checked). I live in your neck of the woods and shoot with a few of your employees at Daniel Boone in the AR competitions (rain or shine). Seeing two of your guys shooting the 2 man team rounds is impressive. Seeing guys emptying the better part of a 60 round Surefire mag in ~ 45 sec is impressive (and getting rounds on target). The rifles are literally smoking for a good minute after the round ends and are crazy hot (and these are with what look to be your lightweight barrels). Never seen one of your rifles have a failure in these conditions, including mine. In general, the guns that folks have issues with (and some do every time) are the Frankenguns they built. BCM's, Colt's, etc. run fine.
Thanks for the comments!
And thank you for yours!
Yes, those guys are some shooters. :D Left me in the dust a few years back (or longer, lol). They love what they do here, love the shooting community, and we are so lucky to have them and all the great folks here. Employees are your greatest resource, and we are blessed to have them all on the team.
To you and all BCM shooters, Thank you for your purchase and your trust in us and our products.
Enjoy the blaster!
V/R
Paul
Doc Safari
06-17-19, 13:53
Paul--I did prefer the basic "plain Jane" Model Zero with standard handguards, A2 flash hider, stock and pistol grip as they came about 2010 when I got mine.
Truth be told the main reason I went with Colts and got rid of my BCM's is because I prefer the pencil barrel for light weight over the M4 profile barrel. All my rifles are Colt 6720's and one 6520 now.
If you guys would make a basic model Zero with the pencil barrel and plain Jane military furniture I'd get another BCM right away.
How is this a description of hobby grade?
You'd have to ask Firefly, since he termed that "the description of hobby grade".
I bet this is what we'll get as his response...
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F11R5KYi6ZdP8Z2%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1
I shoot two of your rifles one is a 16 inch hammer forged mid the other a stainless 16 mid. Both guns have been flawless. One is used as a indoor match gun and home defense. The other used in two gun and some local precision matches. Both have been used in training classes, and have rounds counts in the 1000s, both 100 percent reliable.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
BravoCompanyUSA
06-17-19, 14:08
Paul--I did prefer the basic "plain Jane" Model Zero with standard handguards, A2 flash hider, stock and pistol grip as they came about 2010 when I got mine.
Truth be told the main reason I went with Colts and got rid of my BCM's is because I prefer the pencil barrel for light weight over the M4 profile barrel. All my rifles are Colt 6720's and one 6520 now.
If you guys would make a basic model Zero with the pencil barrel and plain Jane military furniture I'd get another BCM right away.
Hi Doc,
I love the LW barrels as well, and I am a Colt fan! You will do well with Colt. My first AR was a Colt CAR (16") with A2 upper and LW barrel. I still have it and will keep it forever. Drove down to Peoria IL right before the Clinton ban of 1994 to get it. Love it.
I am pretty sure we used to. But right now we just have a LW pencil version but in a middy gas.
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw.htm
If not running a front sight (but a low pro gas block and extended handguard), we have the Enhanced LW barrels. They are pencil type (with continuous taper), but are not set up for a handguard cap.
Most everything we are doing now is middy gas (on 14.5" or longer 556 set ups).
V/R
Paul
MAC recently posted a third video to the series they are doing with a BCM carbine. They took a brand-new BCM carbine, cleaned it, lubed it ONCE with CLP, and then proceeded to put thousands of rounds through it without cleaning or re-lubing. They are going to continue until the carbine fails. So far it has over 4,000 rounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otSWDrp9ebk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otSWDrp9ebk
Outlander Systems
06-17-19, 14:38
As an unashamed miser, and skinflint, the two BCM lowers I have were worth every penny I paid for them.
Eurodriver
06-17-19, 14:54
https://i.imgur.com/xlPEuzK.jpg
14.5” Middy. That upper was a blast at the UD course at Kbay, and shot great on a FA Lower. Bought 8/21/2010 (looked it up) I was surprised it was $758, I expected it to be less. I was seriously considering bringing it with me to OEF but I traded a barracks room for a dorm room.
I remember guys on TOS made fun of me for posting that exact pic of that rifle. They said the pic was washed out. Didn’t have BUIS. “Wasn’t what the .mil was using”.
I was confused - I was .mil and using it. I had just cleaned it in the shower in my barracks room and threw it on the bed (rack) for its first picture to show my buddies. I think I was using a Motorola Razr phone to take the pics. I was so lost why anyone would give a shit what a picture looked like. I wasn’t taking a picture of a Hawaiian sunset. It was a damn rifle. It shot amazingly well and never ever missed a beat. Isn’t that what people should care about? Shit, I carried a rifle every day and it was downright annoying - not something I wanted to take pics of.
That’s when I realized the overwhelming vast majority of guys buying guns are only doing it to show off/look cool. Back then, I felt like BCM catered to me. (It is not a coincidence my join date to M4C was also Aug 2010)
I was a Marine dragging that rifle through shit and shooting it with no regard for its well being or maintaining its condition. Up to that point I felt like everyone treated their rifles like that. Now, I know almost no one does.
Today, I’m sure BCMs QA is still on point but they miss me with this marketing of cool guy kit. What happened to the “Safe queens need not apply” and the Filthy 14? Combat ready firearms for shooters - not Instagram freakshows.
It seems the marketing has shifted away from guys like me. All I see are guys in GPNVG-18s with smoke filled rooms and a pristine BCM in the stack. There are like four hundred guys that actually do that shit in real life. Are they really buying so many uppers that they keep BCMs light bill on?
Where are the rifles with dirt on them? Where are the guns people have actually shot? Paul - you know just as well as I (and Docsherm) do that the way rifles are treated in real life in no way reflect any of the marketing on your IG page (I stopped looking after like 45 pictures. Maybe there are some further back). We say guns are “tools”, and anyone who’s ever thrown their M4 into the cab of an MRAP can relate to that in a way which the typical “I put tape on my shell deflector” civilian can’t.
I have no insight to industry standards. I won’t get on board with anything about parts or tooling or metallurgy or any of that jazz. But the marketing has changed, and I can see why guys who shoot people in the face might be a little turned off and use the phrase “hobby grade”.
Outlander Systems
06-17-19, 15:13
Because Instagram, and SOCMED in general, cater to a certain demographic...
https://i.imgur.com/xlPEuzK.jpg
14.5” Middy. That upper was a blast at the UD course at Kbay, and shot great on a FA Lower. Bought 8/21/2010 (looked it up) I was surprised it was $758, I expected it to be less. I was seriously considering bringing it with me to OEF but I traded a barracks room for a dorm room.
I remember guys on TOS made fun of me for posting that exact pic of that rifle. They said the pic was washed out. Didn’t have BUIS. “Wasn’t what the .mil was using”.
I was confused - I was .mil and using it. I had just cleaned it in the shower in my barracks room and threw it on the bed (rack) for its first picture to show my buddies. I think I was using a Motorola Razr phone to take the pics. I was so lost why anyone would give a shit what a picture looked like. I wasn’t taking a picture of a Hawaiian sunset. It was a damn rifle. It shot amazingly well and never ever missed a beat. Isn’t that what people should care about? Shit, I carried a rifle every day and it was downright annoying - not something I wanted to take pics of.
That’s when I realized the overwhelming vast majority of guys buying guns are only doing it to show off/look cool. Back then, I felt like BCM catered to me. (It is not a coincidence my join date to M4C was also Aug 2010)
I was a Marine dragging that rifle through shit and shooting it with no regard for its well being or maintaining its condition. Up to that point I felt like everyone treated their rifles like that. Now, I know almost no one does.
Today, I’m sure BCMs QA is still on point but they miss me with this marketing of cool guy kit. What happened to the “Safe queens need not apply” and the Filthy 14? Combat ready firearms for shooters - not Instagram freakshows.
It seems the marketing has shifted away from guys like me. All I see are guys in GPNVG-18s with smoke filled rooms and a pristine BCM in the stack. Where are the rifles that people are actually shooting?
I have no insight to industry standards. I won’t get on board with anything about parts or tooling or metallurgy or any of that jazz. But the marketing has changed, and I can see why guys who shoot people in the face might be a little turned off and use the phrase “hobby grade”.
Okay well first of all, "Hobby Grade" isn't exactly bad. Most people wont be jumping out of airplanes with a BCM.
I'm merely stating that the one poster was trotting out these established and vetted AR manufacturers that are very much in current use and tossed out a bunch of "yeah, buts" on why a BCM was a worthier purchase that boiled down to some peculiar end user preference or simply cost less. I merely said "That's the definition of hobby grade" Same with another person stating essentially "oh boy I could tell you who is actually using BCM products but it is top secret/classified"
I won't put words in anyones mouth but that sounds, to me, like fueling the whole "I could tell you but have to kill you" mystique that a lot of AR Hobbyists buy into. The "top secret" buyers could range from Mayberry PD SWAT and 5 BCMs to Luxemborg National Volksarmee Provisional Border Defense and 10 BCMs to The Andorran Gendarmerie and 8 BCMs. But that wouldnt sound cool.
We know that the SOCOM uses pretty much whatever and no end of Colts. Secret Service uses KAC. FBI uses Colts and other such. LMT is armimg New Zealand and has had a hand in US Military at the smaller level. HK we know is or has been used by Delta, SMUs, SEALs, etc. HK has also been/is being used by Russian Spetsnaz and FSB.
So really....how freaking top secret can it really be and why?
Also some dude buying an upper and tossing it on his issued lower is kinda a cheap example. Anyone can do that.
BCM will warranty their gun if it goes bad and they have some intetesting marketing and some neat swag but really are trying to sell this image when simply saying "Hey we'll sell you an AR with a keymod and a pencil barrel if you want" isnt bad or inaccurate but it just doesnt sound as cool. The problem with the AR scene in general is it reaks of the motorcycle "lifestyle" spiel where they sell an 'image' free country, free market but yeah....still hobby grade. not a bad thing but come on, man.
The prices have even crept a little to where you can buy either a BCM with extra that most wont need or use or a solid 6920 that has everything you need out the gate and works
just my opinion but at times BCM owners remind me of the old Saturn car people who acted all uppity and smug like they were outdoing Ford, Toyota, AND VW and making a big to-do about how they were so radically different in their commercials and well....that didnt age well.
And the Filthy 14 isnt that unique. Any decently made AR should do the same thing.
But again, your money/time/emotional investment, not mine. I had a BCM, it was aight but I didnt mind DXing it towards SR25 stuff. My Colt and LMT however always have a home
Diamondback
06-17-19, 19:40
I haven't fired the one BCM upper I have yet--it just came off the BBT last week and I don't have all the parts for the build yet--but while I have my quibbles with them on a few things (not offering correct A2 FH on the C8 SFW, not offering green handguards on it, only offering Tri-Rail to complete it separately and then playing will-we-won-t-we-wait-and-see games on the rail's availability for a year before discontinuing it; all of which I knew going in when I made the choice to buy) the quality of components and workmanship on this thing are pretty solid. If there are flaws in components or workmanship, my meager knowledge and experience base isn't sufficient to notice them, and while this upper's primary "mission statement" is as a range-toy for the girlfriend I'd have no qualms about pressing it into service defending home or 'hood should the need arise.
The other BCM components I've used in other builds have been similar--solid parts with my only quibbles being availability and other minor things. All of these are known issues going in, and when their components fit my needs for clones or special-purpose builds again in the future I would not hesitate to do business with them again.
Of course, I'm both a Low Speed High Drag Desk Wonk and still in the Training Wheels phase barely past "Baby's First Build" so my opinion doesn't and shouldn't carry a lot of weight, I'm just reporting what I see and my perceptions of it.
556BlackRifle
06-17-19, 20:12
Because Instagram, and SOCMED in general, cater to a certain demographic...
I don't shave with Gillette razors, I don't do Instagram nor do I do Facebook but I do - do BCM. Great high quality products at a competitive price. Hard to beat that. :)
The problem with the AR scene in general is it reaks of the motorcycle "lifestyle" spiel where they sell an 'image' free country, free market but yeah....still hobby grade. not a bad thing but come on, man.
Nailed it.
I saw a guy several years ago that I hadn't seen for a couple years. In the ensuing time he had bought a HD, gotten sleeved, started smoking stoogies (cool guy ones) and wore what I termed a costume to wide. I asked him, "Hey, Steve, are we in a movie?'
I do have a Street Glide, a Sportster and a KLR650. I wear jeans, boots, a chore coat, and helmet to ride on the street. On the dirt (as opposed to riding my KLR around town) I wear a jacket with armor and a Leatt device in addition to a helmet.
My sister and brother-in-law ride and they are into dress up, I mock them incessantly.
A lot of similarities, Fly you nailed it.
grizzlyblake
06-18-19, 06:28
The problem with the AR scene in general is it reaks of the motorcycle "lifestyle" spiel where they sell an 'image' free country, free market but yeah....still hobby grade. not a bad thing but come on, man.
Let's be real, other than the LE guys and the hunters, 99% of everyone else is playing costume with the AR stuff.
I saw a guy several years ago that I hadn't seen for a couple years. In the ensuing time he had bought a HD, gotten sleeved, started smoking stoogies (cool guy ones) and wore what I termed a costume to wide. I asked him, "Hey, Steve, are we in a movie?'
Yeah, Harley and the rest of that market caters to everyone wanting to dress up like Sons of Anarchy badasses. If they really nail the costume most bystanders won't be able to tell the difference between the real deal and dress up and they're not going to ask about it in fear of maybe just maybe the guy is some gangsta. LARPing to the extreme.
Same with the AR stuff. There's enough Instagram and movie saturation with what the SF guys look like that every AR guy can go get some multicam cargo shorts, flip flops, aloha shirt, beard and tattoos, and take pictures with their MK18 and NODS and role play the part. Like the Harley guy, if he nails the costume most people won't call the guy on the bluff.
To stay on topic, yeah I'd agree that BCM nails this marketing 100%. So does 5.11 and Magpul to an extent. Like Fly said though, free country and all. For me it's gotten a bit too cringeworthy to where it starts to feel like being part of the Star Wars Comic con dress up crowd.
...it starts to feel like being part of the Star Wars Comic con dress up crowd.
I respect, but do not participate in Star Wars “cosplay” (what a silly, childish term used by adults), because they know it’s all fake and a majority of the time they make the costumes themselves. I don’t see that amongst military LARPers.
One could also make the comparison of the North Face and Patagonia crowds. Initially, these were pretty serious outdoor or rock climbing brands, but now they are “lifestyle” brands that anyone will wear for their walk around the mall or in their cute shorts to walk the dog in a bike trail. It’s a great thing for profits.
Edit to add: And anything we do to normalize firearm centric brands is a good thing for our culture. Despite Magpul’s pretentious pricing, I love that they had an apparel line that wasn’t all recognizable as “gun stuff.”
So I'm trying to get this straight...a military or leo contract is indicative of non-hobby grade iron? So was KAC hobby grade before they got the SS contract? Was LMT hobby grade before they got the NZ contract? Was Colt semi-hobby grade in 1965-1967 with their M16's (not M16A1's) even though they had a military contract, it was a crap shoot to get a working one? Are Noveske and DD considered hobby grade? And in the 1911 world are Burton and Rogers 1911's considered hobby grade pistols? Just trying to figure it out.
"Hobby grade is like pornography. Hard to define, but you know it when you see it"
"Hobby grade is like pornography. Hard to define, but you know it when you see it"
That's /thread. Lotsa truth there.
Outlander Systems
06-18-19, 10:36
LMT can’t even be bothered to park under their FSBs, spending ~$3,000 on a KAC doesn’t even come with an MOA guarantee, LaRue can’t make a mount that isn’t outclassed by anything released in the last 10 years, Geissele can’t get its non-hobby-grade-for-serious-business-use-only Face-Shooter Edition Rail to not bend when dropped, Daniel Defense can’t drill a gas port sized to accommodate everything from proof loads to mouse farts, and HK can’t even be bothered to chrome line a barrel, but yes, please, let’s shit all over BCM.
Don’t feed the trolls, my dude.
When someone can pipe up and quantify, specifically, a legitimate complaint about BCM’s products, I’ll be all ears.
So I'm trying to get this straight...a military or leo contract is indicative of non-hobby grade iron? So was KAC hobby grade before they got the SS contract? Was LMT hobby grade before they got the NZ contract? Was Colt semi-hobby grade in 1965-1967 with their M16's (not M16A1's) even though they had a military contract, it was a crap shoot to get a working one? Are Noveske and DD considered hobby grade? And in the 1911 world are Burton and Rogers 1911's considered hobby grade pistols? Just trying to figure it out.
"Hobby grade is like pornography. Hard to define, but you know it when you see it"
That's /thread. Lotsa truth there.
It's more like liberals, they are loud and boastful with their position, until asked for details.
Then they yell louder. ;)
Reminds me of this guy...
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2Fff2937d92bbc42e372c54bfe36bffd8f%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3D11587456&f=1
In 2010 I purchased a complete BCM 16" upper with a VTAC free float tube. The first thing I noticed was that the VTAC fore end was so loose I could twist it on the upper with my hands. Not a big deal to tighten it, just 2 Allen head bolts but I did expect more attention to detail from a company with BCM’s reputation.
Accuracy is where things fell apart. 5 shot groups from a bench rest at 100 yards were 3 inches. Even with premium ammo. I am an experienced shooter and had several other AR’s from Colt, LMT, RRA, etc. This was the only one that would not group in the vicinity of 1 moa. Yes, I tried swapping optics and all the obvious stuff. I emailed BCM twice and got no response.
I probably should have had a smith take it apart and inspect it but I just relegated it to beater/training gun status. Over the years, accuracy has improved leading me to think there was a burr at the gas port or the muzzle. Now groups with premium ammo are approximately 2.25 inches. This is still less accurate than my other AR’s but it’s acceptable.
Other than what I’ve mentioned, the upper is well put together and has been very reliable.
I got 3 factory-built BCM uppers. A hammer forged light-weight guy with FSB, some kind of "recce" deal, and an 11.5" SBR. The lightweight has maybe 2k through it...The others less. I run them on factory-built LMT lowers.
Overall, I think they're "OK". They're not crap, but they aren't super exceptional either. They're all functionally reliable, but maybe 3MOA on a good day. The Lightweight's FSB is also comically canted. Like Century WASR level of canted. It zeros, but just barely.
I write python and draw schematics for a living. I also live in a town full of rich white people with rich white people problems. Firearms are a hobby and the rest of my stuff is hobby-grade junk, so the BCMs fit in just fine. I ain't gonna be repelling boarders or playing Fat Navy Seal...I just go shoot dirt clods and blow off some steam occasionally.
If zombies attack, I'll grab my Garand.
If removing their barrel nuts and gas blocks qualifies, they've got to be amongst the most difficult, on average, of any brand.
When someone can pipe up and quantify, specifically, a legitimate complaint about BCM’s products, I’ll be all ears.
Outlander Systems
06-18-19, 13:07
I know. The fitment of BCM barrels/nuts to uppers made me realize a major flaw in the Geissele Reaction Rod.
If removing their barrel nuts and gas blocks qualifies, they've got to be amongst the most difficult, on average, of any brand.
How did we get 15 pages out of a “hey I bought a gun and it works” post?
Because we're hobby-grade posters...
I've typed like 20,000 characters on this keyboard since I cleaned it last and it hasn't jammed yet!
"Hobby grade is like pornography. Hard to define, but you know it when you see it"
That’s funny
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How did we get 15 pages out of a “hey I bought a gun and it works” post?
Are you kidding...happens all the time. Lol.
I recently acquired a BCM that I will eventually use for a patrol rifle. The BCM seems very well built and is very lightweight. I see no need to change out the furniture Like I have with most other rifles. I have owned DD, Noveske, and colt over the years and actually picked up this BCM by getting rid of a JP patrol rifle. The JP was super smooth but I didn’t think it would fill the roll as well as the BCM due to the adjustable gas block and proprietary hand guard. Our SRT replaced their uppers with BCM and have had great results as well.
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My take: We're morons.
Hey! I resemble that remark....
Diamondback
06-18-19, 16:32
Hey! I resemble the comment.....
Isn't there an old saying about how true wisdom starts with awareness of one's own ignorance? :)
I can save BCM. I can. Hear me out.
I will make ARs, give it a moderately tactical oorah name. Get some Delta Force guys to make commercials and kiss my ass about how awesome they are and how its the AR Delta Force and Navy SEALs wish they had. Lits of beards and tattoos and Oakley sunglasses. Get a buncha guys to say that my Barrel Nuts are awesome and salty. Like these are the best wrenched nuts in the world. Get YouTube guys to go on about how they love wrenching my nuts and how good it feels going along the shaft of my barrel to get to my nuts and how intuitive and revolutionary it is. Then I’ll give away free shit like T Shirts and all.
Then I’ll shill so goddamned hard it won’t be funny and then I’ll make a rail that flexes or some dumb shit and everyone will hate me. There will be death threats, ID theft, dead animals left on my lawn, a literal campaign of hate. But I can take it. I will have my brainwashed defenders swearing up and down that my guns are serious use. And then BCM will have the heat taken off....
I will have saved them.
I will be the man who sold the world.
Isn't there an old saying about how true wisdom starts with awareness of one's own ignorance? :)
Or fearing God...but yeah, we could all use a bit more humility.
I can save BCM. I can. Hear me out.
I will make ARs, give it a moderately tactical oorah name. Get some Delta Force guys to make commercials and kiss my ass about how awesome they are and how its the AR Delta Force and Navy SEALs wish they had. Lits of beards and tattoos and Oakley sunglasses. Get a buncha guys to say that my Barrel Nuts are awesome and salty. Like these are the best wrenched nuts in the world. Get YouTube guys to go on about how they love wrenching my nuts and how good it feels going along the shaft of my barrel to get to my nuts and how intuitive and revolutionary it is. Then I’ll give away free shit like T Shirts and all.
Then I’ll shill so goddamned hard it won’t be funny and then I’ll make a rail that flexes or some dumb shit and everyone will hate me. There will be death threats, ID theft, dead animals left on my lawn, a literal campaign of hate. But I can take it. I will have my brainwashed defenders swearing up and down that my guns are serious use. And then BCM will have the heat taken off....
I will have saved them.
I will be the man who sold the world.I laughed, but it could be the dry martini talking...
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I can save BCM. I can. Hear me out.
I will make ARs, give it a moderately tactical oorah name. Get some Delta Force guys to make commercials and kiss my ass about how awesome they are and how its the AR Delta Force and Navy SEALs wish they had. Lits of beards and tattoos and Oakley sunglasses. Get a buncha guys to say that my Barrel Nuts are awesome and salty. Like these are the best wrenched nuts in the world. Get YouTube guys to go on about how they love wrenching my nuts and how good it feels going along the shaft of my barrel to get to my nuts and how intuitive and revolutionary it is. Then I’ll give away free shit like T Shirts and all.
Then I’ll shill so goddamned hard it won’t be funny and then I’ll make a rail that flexes or some dumb shit and everyone will hate me. There will be death threats, ID theft, dead animals left on my lawn, a literal campaign of hate. But I can take it. I will have my brainwashed defenders swearing up and down that my guns are serious use. And then BCM will have the heat taken off....
I will have saved them.
I will be the man who sold the world.
Nah...
I think everyone has said enough in this thread. Let's try to keep topics and post a bit more "technical" It helps the forum in many ways.
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