View Full Version : H & K financial troubles continue
In the ongoing saga of HK's financial turmoil, this recent article indicates that HK may be approaching the point of no return.
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/irons/2019/06/12/heckler-koch-maker-of-the-marine-corps-m27-is-in-dire-straits/?utm_source=clavis
TheAlsatian
06-13-19, 05:21
Let's hope not. Maybe it is time for the German government to step in.
Let's hope not. Maybe it is time for the German government to step in.
Yay fascism/socialism/communism.
BoringGuy45
06-13-19, 09:07
Let's hope not. Maybe it is time for the German government to step in.
Or for them to restructure and sell at more competitive prices and such, and expand the civilian market.
Adrenaline_6
06-13-19, 09:25
Or for them to restructure and sell at more competitive prices and such, and expand the civilian market.
Their pistols prices are very competitive now. Most HK hate because of the civilian market is unfounded. They can't expand their lineup - especially the stuff us civilians want, it's not that they don't want to - they simply can't. The German gov't won't let them.
Let's hope not. Maybe it is time for the German government to step in.
See above. Bad idea. They need to totally move house to the US and F the German Gov't.
556BlackRifle
06-13-19, 11:10
Sad to hear this. I've always thought of H&K as the BMW of the firearms world. I love their pistols and they make some damn nice rifles as well. I hope they're able to pull out of this before they slam into the ground.
Their pistols prices are very competitive now. Most HK hate because of the civilian market is unfounded. They can't expand their lineup - especially the stuff us civilians want, it's not that they don't want to - they simply can't. The German gov't won't let them.
See above. Bad idea. They need to totally move house to the US and F the German Gov't.
Idk I’d say that’s pretty damn founded.
Someone let me know when I can buy real 416 uppers
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What is it that civilians want that they "cant have"?
HK 417? HK sells that with unnoticeable tweaks
HK416? same including exact same barrel as USMC
Pistols? them too
HK G36? it sucks. Eff them
HK UMP? They are selling German USCs right now it limited numbers
MP5s? The 80s were a long tine ago
On the bright side..if HK does go under, they'll probably be a fire sale..I would'nt mind picking up a couple more USPc's for cheap....
pointblank4445
06-13-19, 12:55
On the bright side..if HK does go under, they'll probably be a fire sale..I would'nt mind picking up a couple more USPc's for cheap....
Someone posted on Pro a deal where you can get an MR556 and a VP9 together for $2499. Say you take the PSA sale prices for the VP9, that would put your cost for an MR556 for under $2k. Despite what one "values" them at, they've never been that low (even if you have super special discounts).
Idk I’d say that’s pretty damn founded.
Someone let me know when I can buy real 416 uppers
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Here you go only $2500 for parts kit without lower, barrel, bolt.
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/parts-kits/rifle-parts-kits/416-parts-kit-prod122969.aspx?avs%7cManufacturer_1=HECKLER%2bzzxzz%2bKOCH
Adrenaline_6
06-13-19, 13:02
Idk I’d say that’s pretty damn founded.
Someone let me know when I can buy real 416 uppers
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They can't sell you one, not because they don't want to. Under German gov't law, they cannot sell civilians weapon models designated as military weapons. So again, it is unfounded. That is why they have slightly 'different' versions of their military contract models. Why else would they create another totally different model that requires a crapload of money and man hours in separate R&D and testing when they could just sell the one already tested and vetted. It's because they can't.
Add to the fact that the US gov't has eff'd them over twice already when they spent the extra money creating these alternate new models and then the US gov't enacted laws effectively banning the newly developed model before being able to sell them.
They can't sell you one, not because they don't want to. Under German gov't law, they cannot sell civilians weapon models designated as military weapons. So again, it is unfounded. That is why they have slightly 'different' versions of their military contract models. Why else would they create another totally different model that requires a crapload of money and man hours in separate R&D and testing when they could just sell the one already tested and vetted. It's because they can't.
Add to the fact that the US gov't has eff'd them over twice already when they spent the extra money creating these alternate new models and then the US gov't enacted laws effectively banning the newly developed model before being able to sell them.
Ok and your point?? I can’t buy what I want and they can’t sell me what I want because their country’s government is fvcked.
Sounds like plenty justification to me
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Adrenaline_6
06-13-19, 13:42
Ok and your point?? I can’t buy what I want and they can’t sell me what I want because their country’s government is fvcked.
Sounds like plenty justification to me
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If you read my post that you were replying to, I was replying to a post about Hk expanding their civilian market and the hate they get for not doing so. If they can't, then the hate is unfounded. The hate should be for the German gov't
unfounded
adj. Not based on fact or sound evidence; groundless: synonym: baseless.
Not founded; not built or established. Having no foundation; vain; idle; baseless: as, unfounded expectations.
adj. Not founded; not built or established.
Coal Dragger
06-13-19, 15:42
See above. Bad idea. They need to totally move house to the US and F the German Gov't.
That is the correct answer. Pick up and move headquarters to the US of A. Offer full content products to US civilian market, sell .mil and LEO guns to whatever countries the US State Department allows. They would do well I think without having their hands tied all the damn time by the Eurocuck govt' of Germany.
Germany has stellar prostitutes, and some of the world’s best beer. Reinheightsgebot, or however its spelled has contributed to that. And whatever laws that have led them to have such notable prostitutes.
Beyond that, there is no reason to be there. Definitely not where I would choose to manufacture weapons. Sorry, HK, but you suck and we hate you.
If you read my post that you were replying to, I was replying to a post about Hk expanding their civilian market and the hate they get for not doing so. If they can't, then the hate is unfounded. The hate should be for the German gov't
unfounded
adj.Not based on fact or sound evidence; groundless: synonym: baseless.
Not founded; not built or established. Having no foundation; vain; idle; baseless: as, unfounded expectations.
adj.Not founded; not built or established.
Cute.
But I can absolutely hate on them for not packing it in and moving.
HKmasterrace is real but damn if the world doesn’t need cucked up offerings because the Germans are a bunch of self hating losers today.
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Add to the fact that the US gov't has eff'd them over twice already when they spent the extra money creating these alternate new models and then the US gov't enacted laws effectively banning the newly developed model before being able to sell them.
Hk must not look at it that way considering where discounts and perks go.
BoringGuy45
06-13-19, 22:12
They can't sell you one, not because they don't want to. Under German gov't law, they cannot sell civilians weapon models designated as military weapons. So again, it is unfounded. That is why they have slightly 'different' versions of their military contract models. Why else would they create another totally different model that requires a crapload of money and man hours in separate R&D and testing when they could just sell the one already tested and vetted. It's because they can't.
Add to the fact that the US gov't has eff'd them over twice already when they spent the extra money creating these alternate new models and then the US gov't enacted laws effectively banning the newly developed model before being able to sell them.
But how do they justify selling the pistols that were clearly designed for the military?
Germany has stellar prostitutes, and some of the world’s best beer. Reinheightsgebot, or however its spelled has contributed to that. And whatever laws that have led them to have such notable prostitutes.
Beyond that, there is no reason to be there. Definitely not where I would choose to manufacture weapons. Sorry, HK, but you suck and we hate you.
There are more beer breweries in US than there are Germany, and who need prostitutes with Tinder?
There are more beer breweries in US than there are Germany, and who need prostitutes with Tinder?
You’re not wrong. Try Bumble, also.
Let's hope not. Maybe it is time for the German government to step in.
You mean the same government that fined H&K 4 million dollars and prosecuted an executive or two for selling firearms to the Mexican Gov't? Yeah, H&K can expect a lot of help from the German Gov't.
Id like to buy the one true boat anchor , Mk23 pistol for $1,200 in a fire sale. Somebody will buy them, no way they will just disappear, maybe some products may disappear but not HK as a whole.
PB
They can't sell you one, not because they don't want to. Under German gov't law, they cannot sell civilians weapon models designated as military weapons. So again, it is unfounded. That is why they have slightly 'different' versions of their military contract models.
That is it though, slightly different versions. I understand their military uses the P8 pistol, which you and I know as the USP.
I know/think in Germany that the AR type rifles have different push pin configurations so as to not be compatible with normal mil-spec stuff.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-15-19, 00:27
This is a sad thing for the industry. H&K originated so much of what is standard in the industry today. Mainstream use of polymer frames in a combat handgun? PCAP/Keymod (leading to Mlock). Frame rails for weapons lights ? Pioneering used of stampings? All those things. Sure they have made a lot of odd stuff (roller locking pistols, squeeze cocking pistols, careless rifles)The industry needs innovators like this to push the industry forward.
Phillygunguy
06-15-19, 05:31
I really hope they don't go belly up. HK has become my favorite firearms manufacturer. Dumb question, if Germany doesn't bail them out who will make weapons for their military?
BoringGuy45
06-15-19, 08:23
I really hope they don't go belly up. HK has become my favorite firearms manufacturer. Dumb question, if Germany doesn't bail them out who will make weapons for their military?
I'd imagine they'll get bought out by some other company. Just hopefully not Cerberus.
Sounds like the best option is to let it die and scoop up the assets for pennies on the dollar. Hell of an opportunity for a well-organized rebuild. Better yet, move the legacy machines stateside and open the catalog to all legal customers. Semi-auto XM-8's and 433's for the masses.
In the ongoing saga of HK's financial turmoil, this recent article indicates that HK may be approaching the point of no return.
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/irons/2019/06/12/heckler-koch-maker-of-the-marine-corps-m27-is-in-dire-straits/?utm_source=clavis
Of all the arms manufacturers I would have thought HK highly profitable. Just goes to show impressions vs real t.
It is unlikely a US or non-german PE firm will purchase HK. The German gov is already involved and subsidizing an absurd retirement benefits program, the subsidization which would go away creating a huge liability for a buyer. Additionally Euro Co's, by law, have 1/2 the board by labor, which generally not being experienced or savvy management try to extract short term gains for employees, torpedoing plans effectively utilizing resources necessary for strategic planning. To top it off, German laws and company poiicy require a yearly certification by customers HK wares (weapons) aren't being used in a belligerent manner. Imagine any governmental customer on the globe being ok with this...
There is a longer belt-fed list of screwball management decisions that got them where they are now. However, significant liabilities and regulatory hurdles will preclude reasonable investors from glancing toward Oberndorf. Buy your overpriced, over engineered, dive-weights now.
How does that even work?
How does that even work?
I’d like to know how they define “belligerent”
I’m guessing state sponsored deprivations of Liberty are not part of the criterion.
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Funny how all those HK G3s ended up in African war zones.
Phillygunguy
06-16-19, 10:54
I'd imagine they'll get bought out by some other company. Just hopefully not Cerberus.
Yeah that would be a disaster
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-16-19, 12:02
Maybe some other big wheel arms company like Rheinmetall will just buy up their stuff (probably for cheap when they go bankrupt). They probably have better contacts with top brass anyway.
I’d like to know how they define “belligerent”
I’m guessing state sponsored deprivations of Liberty are not part of the criterion.
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They are hugging rifles and not assault rifles...... duh.
See, not belligerent at all. They are nice....... it says so in the name.
Funny how the pointy end of every western nations's "spear" nowadays is HK equipped.
Its probably like when a gunshop has a sign stating "Must have license to carry to handle handguns" and only enforcing it when a certain class of buyer appears.
Germany is the Theon Greyjoy of Europe.
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Maybe some other big wheel arms company like Rheinmetall will just buy up their stuff (probably for cheap when they go bankrupt). They probably have better contacts with top brass anyway.
Not sure RM could handle it. I'd say Steyr but they are the other company that nearly goes bankrupt every 10 years. Last time Royal Small Arms (UK) bought them and that is when all the SA80 updates were done. I remember Fiat was also a potential buyer, as well as Todd Bailey if you remember his famous "threat letter" on HK Pro.
HK was pretty butthurt about being owned by a foreign entity and took great pride in being "German owned" again, but seems to have changed almost nothing to prevent financial troubles from happening again. I realize a lot of their past problems were related to German reuinification and the G11 not being adopted so all those R&D costs were never recouped and then the German economy tanked when they had to pay all the related costs of bringing the DDR into a first world standard of living.
The UK can barely keep their arms makers in black ink so I think they need to follow the SIG example (in concept but without the Cohens) and move more production to HK USA.
I’m okay with a USA only HK. I’m hoping in a morbid way that HK just being HK never gets Cohen’d.
Cohen is like the noid of guns.
I mean I like their stuff sorta but like not enough to get a Cohen’d gun.
sundance435
06-17-19, 08:15
Not sure RM could handle it. I'd say Steyr but they are the other company that nearly goes bankrupt every 10 years. Last time Royal Small Arms (UK) bought them and that is when all the SA80 updates were done. I remember Fiat was also a potential buyer, as well as Todd Bailey if you remember his famous "threat letter" on HK Pro.
HK was pretty butthurt about being owned by a foreign entity and took great pride in being "German owned" again, but seems to have changed almost nothing to prevent financial troubles from happening again. I realize a lot of their past problems were related to German reuinification and the G11 not being adopted so all those R&D costs were never recouped and then the German economy tanked when they had to pay all the related costs of bringing the DDR into a first world standard of living.
Why do you think Rheinmetall couldn't handle it? Nexter would also be a logical choice, since they own KMW. But yeah, no way a German company, or a company with strong German ties (Nexter) doesn't own HK. If nothing else, no foreign entity would want to deal with the hypocritical bureaucratic nightmare of being an arms manufacturer in Germany.
Why do you think Rheinmetall couldn't handle it? Nexter would also be a logical choice, since they own KMW. But yeah, no way a German company, or a company with strong German ties (Nexter) doesn't own HK. If nothing else, no foreign entity would want to deal with the hypocritical bureaucratic nightmare of being an arms manufacturer in Germany.
I was thinking per a Vickers video(or Forgotten Weapons?), Rheinmetall had some sort of agreement where they made crew served weapons for the German military while Hk made personal weapons?
I don't know if companies would worry about any kind of no sales to private citizens rules (if that is in fact German law) either considering all of the companies that do (or attempt to do) that on their own initiative without any legal entanglements. Aimpoint and .gov PRO's a few years back come to mind internationally. US companies frequently do it/have done it as well. Ammo makers (type of and/or quantities of ammo) and Remington shotguns and rifles are just 2 instances coming to mind currently engaging in the practice. Historically there was Ruger on magazines and mini 14 GB sales, Colt punishing NFA dealers for selling pre 86 M16's to private citizens, and even 1990's Redfield scopes had a scope line listed in Jerry's Sport Center distributor catalog as being for .gov sales only.
I don't get why many in the firearms industry wish to give their majority customers the Jim Crow get your food out back/drink out of that bucket treatment while bending over backwards for the minority .gov customers, but that is quite common.
Cute.
But I can absolutely hate on them for not packing it in and moving.
HKmasterrace is real but damn if the world doesn’t need cucked up offerings because the Germans are a bunch of self hating losers today.
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You donating funds for the move??
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You donating funds for the move??
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I’d donate with my credit card sure. I’ll standby for my 416 upper invoice.
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Well that sucks. I love me some HK.
I hope they don't go under, but if they do, I hope they at least get a restock of LEM conversion kits into the US before hand....
Why do you think Rheinmetall couldn't handle it? Nexter would also be a logical choice, since they own KMW. But yeah, no way a German company, or a company with strong German ties (Nexter) doesn't own HK. If nothing else, no foreign entity would want to deal with the hypocritical bureaucratic nightmare of being an arms manufacturer in Germany.
RM could probably handle HK Germany, not sure they could manage everything else. They don't set up contract factories all over the world, there is no RM USA, etc. I think they have their hands full doing what they do and not getting crushed by the same restrictions HK operates under.
I wonder if the will be an HK USA, but not HK Germany. It seems doing business in Germany is not worth it.
Kind like SIG USA but with getting Cohened and turned into a turd factory.
Their pistols prices are very competitive now. Most HK hate because of the civilian market is unfounded. They can't expand their lineup - especially the stuff us civilians want, it's not that they don't want to - they simply can't. The German gov't won't let them.
They sell G36s (HK243) to Canada, but they can't sell them to the US? They can't sell an A3 MR556 in the US, only the A1? Because of what law?
...so you're saying that HK can and do sell the rifles we want all over the world, but they can't do it for us.... Obviously getting the guns out of Germany is no problem, as they sell to Canada. They know how to get the guns into the US, because they sell the MR556 here...but somehow, they can't sell a 243 here...or an MR556A3. How is the 243 legally different than the MR556?
Here is a hint: It's not.
FN seems to pull it off just fine...so we know getting guns in isn't a problem. HK could if they wanted to, but sadly, they don't.
FN seems to pull it off just fine...so we know getting guns in isn't a problem. HK could if they wanted to, but sadly, they don't.
I wonder if there was some sort of quid pro quo with the prior US administration under the table to not import these things into the US ?
They sell G36s (HK243) to Canada, but they can't sell them to the US? They can't sell an A3 MR556 in the US, only the A1? Because of what law?
...so you're saying that HK can and do sell the rifles we want all over the world, but they can't do it for us.... Obviously getting the guns out of Germany is no problem, as they sell to Canada. They know how to get the guns into the US, because they sell the MR556 here...but somehow, they can't sell a 243 here...or an MR556A3. How is the 243 legally different than the MR556?
Here is a hint: It's not.
FN seems to pull it off just fine...so we know getting guns in isn't a problem. HK could if they wanted to, but sadly, they don't.
Belgian law is not German law.
Or for them to restructure and sell at more competitive prices and such, and expand the civilian market.
I know they'd have to build it here in the USA, but... If they started making the 91 and MP5 I'd buy one each. I've got the itch. I used the military versions back in my SWAT days and loved them. Life was so much simpler before we had to wear atomic level body armor and .223 became standard issue to meter readers.
Belgian law is not German law.
Fact.
But Belgian guns and German guns have the same issues to deal with when it comes to getting into the US, and are the answer to the question 'is it possible for Europe to sell the guns we want in the us?'. Yes, it is possible, says Belgium (and Switzerland, and lots of other places).
As to the question about export, we can look to the other guns HK exports to other countries to see what's possible (or even to the US). If they can make a 416 (call it MR556 if you will), and a 417, why not a G36? Call it a 243, call it 'Bob' for all I care. Send a mold to the US for the receiver, and have Wilcox or DD or whoever make a barrel.
Answer: For the MR556, they put in the effort to sell them here (US made bits, required US manufacture, etc). For the other guns, including later generations for the 416, they have chosen not to. Chosen. That's the operative word.
Adrenaline_6
06-25-19, 10:32
Fact.
But Belgian guns and German guns have the same issues to deal with when it comes to getting into the US, and are the answer to the question 'is it possible for Europe to sell the guns we want in the us?'. Yes, it is possible, says Belgium (and Switzerland, and lots of other places).
As to the question about export, we can look to the other guns HK exports to other countries to see what's possible (or even to the US). If they can make a 416 (call it MR556 if you will), and a 417, why not a G36? Call it a 243, call it 'Bob' for all I care. Send a mold to the US for the receiver, and have Wilcox or DD or whoever make a barrel.
Answer: For the MR556, they put in the effort to sell them here (US made bits, required US manufacture, etc). For the other guns, including later generations for the 416, they have chosen not to. Chosen. That's the operative word.
The difference though is the MR556 is not really a 416 and the 243 is not really a G36. HK has even been blasted for that. Why they chose not to sell the 243, I couldn't tell you and don't care to research the real reason why either. But to make a different variant of their military weapons is expensive to do and the juice has to be worth the squeeze. Obviously HK thinks it isn't. They could be wrong, who knows.
Adrenaline_6
06-25-19, 13:30
Seems this is unfounded gossip. Got this from the HK forum. All credit to HK forum user "straightgrain" for getting this direct response from HK:
Recently received from HK:
Dear Valued Partner,
I find it disappointing, but necessary, that I need to clear up the disinformation circulating in the media following our latest financial report. This narrative is the result of a chain reaction of doom and gloom started by a German news source that has been historically antagonistic toward HK. That one article triggered an initial US report on The Firearm Blog that lacked critical context. From there it just got worse, with each subsequent article sounding more bleak than the last. This culminated in a report from the Military Times that only served to remind us that, while HK is still very much alive, American journalism continues to die a slow and painful death.
Rather than argue about the conclusions of the authors, I would like to simply point out some facts:
Of the three US news stories, none contacted HK for comment for their reports.
The first two US articles (The Firearm Blog, The Outdoor Wire) used a foreign news story as their primary source without questioning their accuracy or motivation.
A third US article (Military Times) used the first two US articles s its primary sources, creating a sensationalized third- or fourth-hand account.
Of the three US articles, none referenced a single number from the HK financial report.
To be clear, HK still remains a leveraged company. This places a burden on the business that non-leveraged companies don’t have. However, we have met and continue to meet all covenants associated with this debt. The full story is easy to find in the financial data the news media neglected to report. Here are some key examples:
From 2014 to the end of 2018, HK’s debt was reduced from 290 million Euros to 235 million and the interest rate on that debt was reduced substantially.
Over the course of 2018 and thus far in 2019, HK reported positive EBITDA in every quarter.
Over that same period, HK’s cash position doubled.
Claims of “diminishing sales” and “difficulty securing new large-scale contracts” are patently false. In fact, the last six quarters for HK have shown record order-intake, including a substantial backlog of large-scale contracts.
HK invested a combined 8.3 million Euros toward increased capacity and efficiency in both the Obendorf, Germany and Columbus, GA facilities in 2018.
The full financial report and other key data can be found at https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/ir/annual-accounts.html and https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/ir/key-figures.html.
At HK, we are committed to supplying and servicing our US partners for many profitable years to come. I can assure you that we are in it for the long haul.
Sincerely,
Michael Holley
CSO/COO - Heckler & Koch - US
Seems this is unfounded gossip. Got this from the HK forum. All credit to HK forum user "straightgrain" for getting this direct response from HK:
Recently received from HK:
We're not going out of business, but we still hate you.
Oh good! Maybe now I can get me some LEM conversion kits...
In Germany as well as a few European countries, its really hard to right size a company. They have laws regulating how you let employees go, and in short, firing or letting go an employee is harder than it sounds. Here in the US, if you having bad economic times, and you need to lay off some employees, you just simply lay them off. Not in Europe.
I think HK and HKUSA need to separate and let HKUSA continue manufacturing products for the US market along with additional civilian products like the G36c, HP7 and MP5 and let HK in Germany restructure. Meanwhile HKUSA can pay a royalty or a license fee for each product sold.
BoringGuy45
06-25-19, 18:32
In Germany as well as a few European countries, its really hard to right size a company. They have laws regulating how you let employees go, and in short, firing or letting go an employee is harder than it sounds. Here in the US, if you having bad economic times, and you need to lay off some employees, you just simply lay them off. Not in Europe.
I think HK and HKUSA need to separate and let HKUSA continue manufacturing products for the US market along with additional civilian products like the G36c, HP7 and MP5 and let HK in Germany restructure. Meanwhile HKUSA can pay a royalty or a license fee for each product sold.
I agree, though I fear it would go the way of Sig. A big name like HKUSA...every investor and publicly traded firearm company will want it. Likely, Sig or Cerberus would end up buying it. To save money, the quality control department will be pretty much abolished, the machined internal parts will all be switched out to MIM parts imported from China and Brazil, heat treating of metal will be a thing of the past, but they'll keep people on the hook by their name and by releasing all their stuff in every color of the rainbow.
. To save money, the quality control department will be pretty much abolished, the machined internal parts will all be switched out to MIM parts imported from China and Brazil, heat treating of metal will be a thing of the past, but they'll keep people on the hook by their name and by releasing all their stuff in every color of the rainbow.
Well, that is the American way! It sucks but no one wants to pay the price for HK without trying to save a few dollars for greater ROI.
sundance435
06-27-19, 10:58
In Germany as well as a few European countries, its really hard to right size a company. They have laws regulating how you let employees go, and in short, firing or letting go an employee is harder than it sounds. Here in the US, if you having bad economic times, and you need to lay off some employees, you just simply lay them off. Not in Europe.
I think HK and HKUSA need to separate and let HKUSA continue manufacturing products for the US market along with additional civilian products like the G36c, HP7 and MP5 and let HK in Germany restructure. Meanwhile HKUSA can pay a royalty or a license fee for each product sold.
Very true. The German economy is a Rubik's cube. The Mittelstand, which are large-small and medium-sized companies have all of the clout. There's almost zero economic incentive for them to grow in size because of the various regulations that would then apply, as well as the corresponding increase in costs. There's also very little upward mobility in the German private sector, at least within Germany, which is why you'll see a lot of Germans working for the American/foreign subsidiaries of German conglomerates. A company like HK will always be about the size it is now, regardless of whether they make firearms or Ebola vaccine.
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