View Full Version : .45 AARP—Meme or Misunderstood?
I know everyone has sold us huge lies about 9mm everything. For a minute, even I was eating 9mm bluepills.
But then I remembered....what do I almost universally go hunting with? My trusty Glock 21. And I usually shoot some sizeable hogs. Now I use a .40 and a 10mm and a .44 when I get my wheelgat on, but the more I experiment with hardcast 255 gr ammo the more I see some positive results that you just cannot get with a 9mm
Same for vehicles. Lotsa vehicle shooting training I’ve done with .45. Others use 40. We can parse about capacity and all kinds of other “just as good as” and maybe even denounce 40 and 45 as fuddlore versus vehicles but weight and weight retention are real. .45 is slow but fat.
I know someone will bring up that one cop who had a bad day and shot a crackhead with his G21 and crackie didn’t die right away so now he carries a G17 and a bunch of Glock extendos but I posit this:
What if he shoots another crackie with 9mm and dumps several SMGs worth of 9mm and he still doesn’t die right away again? When do we stop blaming the bullet?
A heavy enough round traveling fast enough will at least break bone. Im not saying 9mm isn’t good for women or short people but slamming a hog shoulder a few times with hard cast .45 makes me skeptical that this isn’t all just some big deal to get everyone to buy 9mm ammo and 9mm accessories
Change my mind, M4C
SNIP
A heavy enough round traveling fast enough will at least break bone. Im not saying 9mm isn’t good for women or short people SNIP
Change my mind, M4C
In my experience, 9mm does not simply break bones. Rather, anything cops are shooting, be it 9, 40, or .45 sails through crackheads like they are holograms. Blowback pocketguns rarely seem to exit, OTOH. I’m unimpressed by pistols in general, and have seen no change in outcomes in the 9 vs whatever super blaster argument.
I’m just an 11b turned paramedic, and I carry 9mm.
In my experience, 9mm does not simply break bones. Rather, anything cops are shooting, be it 9, 40, or .45 sails through crackheads like they are holograms. Blowback pocketguns rarely seem to exit, OTOH. I’m unimpressed by pistols in general, and have seen no change in outcomes in the 9 vs whatever super blaster argument.
I’m just an 11b turned medic, and I carry 9mm.
I kinda agree on pocket guns because I had a dude stitched up with .380 ask me for a cigarette as we waited for EMS.
But the shootings I have seen personally vs humans with a .45 or .40 usually ended in fatality or at least crippled
Oddly enough most hood on hood fatalities are usually with something like a .25 or something.
I do agree that rifles win everyday but this country is so cucked where you cant patrol with a shorty 300 blk in a pdw stock because it makes women and thuggies feel “threatened.”
I dunno. I like my .45. Screw it.
I’d say that there are too many variables that cannot be accounted for when dealing with shots on live tissue to ever use anecdotal evidence. I say this fully aware that many times in my life I’ve resorted to anecdotal evidence. Perfect I am not.
A boar is not a man, and a water buffalo isn’t a white tail. Apples to oranges. Comparing many men to other men is not even an apples to apples comparison. The variables are myriad; angle, velocity upon impact, clothing, BMI, muscle composition, bone density, hydration level, opium consumption, will to survive/reluctance to expire. We aren’t even really hitting on the easy variables like muzzle velocity, bullet construction, BC, etc..
See enough traumatic injuries and you realize that when your number gets called, that’s it. People survive incomprehensible trauma every day; people die from trauma that seems easily treatable on a daily basis.
At the end of the day, you have to make a choice that you feel comfortable with. Science is impartial, physical laws don’t lie. Choose the cartridge whose projectile mass and velocity give you an energy level that makes you feel good.
As noted, handguns < rifles.
I’d say that there are too many variables that cannot be accounted for when dealing with shots on live tissue to ever use anecdotal evidence. I say this fully aware that many times in my life I’ve resorted to anecdotal evidence. Perfect I am not.
A boar is not a man, and a water buffalo isn’t a white tail. Apples to oranges. Comparing many men to other men is not even an apples to apples comparison. The variables are myriad; angle, velocity upon impact, clothing, BMI, muscle composition, bone density, hydration level, opium consumption, will to survive/reluctance to expire. We aren’t even really hitting on the easy variables like muzzle velocity, bullet construction, BC, etc..
See enough traumatic injuries and you realize that when your number gets called, that’s it. People survive incomprehensible trauma every day; people die from trauma that seems easily treatable on a daily basis.
At the end of the day, you have to make a choice that you feel comfortable with. Science is impartial, physical laws don’t lie. Choose the cartridge whose projectile mass and velocity give you an energy level that makes you feel good.
As noted, handguns < rifles.
I’m not trying to kiss your ass or anything but this post made me feel some kind of way. Not really validation or even introspection. Like....you’ve heard a record before, liked it, haven’t heard it in a while, you play it again and for that one moment, usually on a slightly overcast day when all is just cosmic, it’s like you never heard it before and it’s almost like you are listening to it again for the first time. So your input was greatly appreciated.
Like....I genuinely enjoy the recoil of my 45. That kinda blunt ‘thumpy’ feel. Not a snap or a twangy jolt but that thump. Maybe not all day for 16 hours (I’ll wuss and use a 9mm for that), but it just feels right and familiar. Even that autopsy doctor from the YouTube video basically says its not going to ultimately matter per energy and mass.
And I fully agree. Rifles win every time.
I just like my .45s. It just feels familiar and I can just “feel” it. That probably sounds all like Steven Seagal style mumbo jumbo but its all I can say to explain it.
I know my holds and I like that weight when its topped off.
Just my deal I guess
You won't get an argument from me.
My personal rule (with a few exceptions) is to carry the pistol that works best....for me. This pistol happens to be a 1911 in .45. Yes, my splits are slower with them compared to
a Glock 19 or 5" M&P 9mm, but gun fights are decided with an assailant or an attacker no longer fighting, not by a shot timer.
In a self defense situation, am I gonna be running and gunning as fast as possible.....highly unlikely. Do I expect to expend more than 8 rounds without an opportunity to change mags......nope.
My aluminum framed 4.25" CCO happens to also be more comfortable to carry (in a SuperTuck or VM2) than a Glock 19 (in a VM2...the SuperTuck hasn't arrived yet)....and even a 9mm Shield, (in a MiniTuck or Alien Gear IWB).
MountainRaven
06-13-19, 21:56
IIRC, homie who got stitched up with three-plus G21 mags turned out to be stone sober.
Maybe the solution is just to do headshots. Bring back the Mozambique, but the headshot turns into an NSR: Two to the chest, however many to the head it takes to drop 'em.
BuzzinSATX
06-13-19, 22:11
But then I remembered....what do I almost universally go hunting with? My trusty Glock 21. And I usually shoot some sizeable hogs. Now I use a .40 and a 10mm and a .44 when I get my wheelgat on, but the more I experiment with hardcast 255 gr ammo the more I see some positive results that you just cannot get with a 9mm......
Change my mind, M4C
Good stuff, FF!
I’m a .45 ACP fan myself...love my G21 and I too enjoy the 230 hardball thump. I generally carry 9MM for urban areas, but .45 is just fun to shoot.
My woods ammo used to be 200 grain flat nose FMJ until I found the Underwood 255 bullets. They do impart some energy. Never shot anything fleshy with them...do they give good straight line penetration? What kind are you carrying?
Take care,
The_War_Wagon
06-13-19, 22:28
Since we're on the interwebz, I let my memes do the talking... :cool:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc305/The_War_Wagon/1/15ea55a4-c29a-4e62-a61d-02fe7c35be66-original.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=boundshttps://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc305/The_War_Wagon/1/2f2db18d-5f48-413f-8bab-95d728765fa1-original.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc305/The_War_Wagon/1/b40ee06a-5513-421e-8987-b8fe649ee014-original.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/cc305/The_War_Wagon/1/c35c7b05-f4a2-4199-99b7-491c235170f0-original.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds
Eh handguns poke holes, rifles destroy sh!t.
Good stuff, FF!
I’m a .45 ACP fan myself...love my G21 and I too enjoy the 230 hardball thump. I generally carry 9MM for urban areas, but .45 is just fun to shoot.
My woods ammo used to be 200 grain flat nose FMJ until I found the Underwood 255 bullets. They do impart some energy. Never shot anything fleshy with them...do they give good straight line penetration? What kind are you carrying?
Take care,
Buffalo Bore. its not bad. Does pretty good making a uniform hole and good penetration. I probably wouldnt use it on people because it would through and through but is a bit nicer than just using a .44
tacticaldesire
06-14-19, 10:03
When I first starting carrying, I was .45acp or bust. My first handgun was a Glock 21 and I carried that for years. Now it sits in a drawer.
There was a guy last summer that got stitched multiple times up by two officers with 5.56 and one officer with a G21 after he decided to go on a rolling gun battle through town and thought it was a good idea to shoot at a bearcat. He lived.
Anecdotes.
If you want to talk vehicle ballistics in regards to pistol and rifle calibers. Hit up William Petty. Far and away the subject matter expert. (I'll give you a hint: .40 and 45 perform considerably worse than most would like to believe)
In terms of Joe Blow walking down the street with his CCW Taurus, I'm of the opinion that any service caliber is adequate. More people need GOOD competent training than caliber debates. I'd rather have a dude with good quality training under his belt and a .380 bersa on my 6 vs a dude who shoots 50 rounds a year with a Roland Special.
The American in me that likes big things and big holes will always have a soft spot for .45acp. In terms of practicality, actual ballistics, and because reasons, 9mm is my go to. With my G45 I can get 18 rounds in the gun, in a smaller package and real world terminal ballistics are near identical to what I would get in my MUCH larger G21 with 14 rounds in a gun that's heavier.
I love shooting 45. I love the thump I feel, and there's something classic about those big 230gr slugs. Every now and then I'll even take it through a class. But I believe in practicality and reality and it will always take precedence over nostalgia and feels.
Bottom line, I don't think you can go wrong with any service caliber. But there's a reason there's been a pendulum swing to 9mm and it's not just because of the FBI or people with weak hands.
It occurs to me that the next model Glock announces should be a G48 in .45 AARP. I’ll buy one, just for funsies.
Doc Safari
06-14-19, 10:17
This has been done to death and you can find statistics to support whatever you believe.
I shoot and carry 9mm because it's affordable, the guns tend to hold more rounds, and it's easy to shoot accurately.
I've also shot and enjoyed .45 ACP but not having to pay more for it.
Choose your pill and rock on.
Entertaining read. Over the years I never shot a deer in the hunting fields with a rifle. I was a a fan of Skeeter Skelton and always used handguns. Over the years I've used all three 44's, 45 ACP, auto rim, and of course .45 Colt. My last hunting handguns were a S&W 610 and a Glock 20. They were all effective on white tails depending on range and cartridge. I've seen my own hard cast 250 grain Keith wadcutters go through deer end to end at about 1150 FPS.
I started in law enforcement in 1990 and carried a S&W 25-7 or 625-2 for several years till I went to a 1911. In 1999 I was issued a Glock and been with plastic ever since. We had a dirtball about 1995 robbing a pharmacy that got shot in the nose from 5 feet with a Glock 27 and was in our jail within 3 days with a hole the size of a quarter in the bridge of his nose. He never had to blow his nose again. Ballistics are still a large part art vs. science because we are all different, external barriers, and everything else.
I'm old and like simplicity now. After a few tours and decades of life logistics are important to me. I can buy a case of 1000 9mm ball for around 180.00. I don't even own anything other than 9's now with the exception of a single suppressed .22. What you're saying makes sense but my pistol requirements now are met with a Glock 45, 19, or 43 100% of the time. We all make our choices based on our own knowledge, experiences, and lifestyle, and are all captive to our own reality, good or bad. Rifles are great but rarely available when we need them. I'm not a law enforcement precision rifleman anymore and gave up the SWAT team at 50 years old, so form me 99% of the time it's a 9mm.
For me, the single biggest plus is ammo cost for training. 9 practically is free and I can blast and blast and blast and as a result I have had life crippling come to Jesus moment about 1911s, HPs, CZs et. al. They blow.
Seriously the polymer striker is the DA/SA of 1990. I was ogling over 9mm Custom Shop and saving up $100/week until I could afford that or a EDC X9. Absolutely beautiful guns, truly pieces of art. But one day I went to the range with my 19 and a 1911 and about halved my groups with my 19, because I practice with it. I also realized, I can land dome pieces literally every time with my 19 at 25 yards. In theory I could do better with a different handgun but, how much better? Not enough. I realized that they're just tools and you gotta have a lot of luck. SRT guys can be sitting at lunch and get smoked for wearing county brown. That's it, lights out. Then you can get a dude who is running away shooting without looking at his target and split the difference between some dudes eyes. Dumb luck.
It's an effed up world, and whether you got AKs and ARs with laser sights and brass catchers and everything, or you're rocking a rattle trap with a hair trigger, you're probably never gonna shoot it in anger. If you do, mentality is gonna carry you through it. Force on force is vital but making small holes at 50 yards with a 9 or 45 or 10mmasterrace it pails in comparison to being competent with a solid handgun.
This legit messed me up, cause I could have a sick looking holster and be the prettiest boy with the shiniest boots in all the land but it means nothing if i can't hit shit. My G21 is great but my 19 is better, for me. Had I bought $2,000 in ammo instead of $1200 in a 19/RMR and holsters/accessories I would probably be a better shooter.
Pick your poison and stop buying guns. Buy ammo, get training and find a better hobby than keeping up with the tactical Jones's.
ramairthree
06-15-19, 01:00
It occurs to me that the next model Glock announces should be a G48 in .45 AARP. I’ll buy one, just for funsies.
I want so bad before I die to see Glock introduce a single stack 8 round 45.
With a steel lower, frame mounted safety, and
3.75# trigger pull.
And declare it the culmination of the evolution of Glock Perfection.
I know everyone has sold us huge lies about 9mm everything...slamming a hog shoulder a few times with hard cast .45 makes me skeptical that this isn’t all just some big deal to get everyone to buy 9mm ammo and 9mm accessories...
Change my mind, M4C
All else being equal, larger bullets and more velocity give better terminal ballistics. But how much larger/faster does one need to go before there is a practical difference? Back before the FBI tested the terminal ballistics of bullets in gelatin blocks, it was accepted the 45 had better ballistics than the 9mm and second only to the 357. Bullet technology and meeting terminal performance standards set forth by the FBI went a long way towards closing the performance gap of the various service handgun calibers. As there is little difference in terminal ballistics between the modern 9mm and modern 45 ACP, the 9mm has become the more practical choice.
You're not wrong in choosing the 45 ACP. You're not wrong in choosing the 9mm. There are times when nothing satisfies the itch like the 45 ACP. There are times when noting will do except to shoot the 1911. It's the handgun my father taught me to love and I think of him whenever I pick it up and strap it on. Sometimes I want my PPQ 45 and the 12 Angry Men waiting in the magazine.
Change your mind? No. Not my job. It's your choice and your responsibility:big_boss:
I want so bad before I die to see Glock introduce a single stack 8 round 45.
With a steel lower, frame mounted safety, and
3.75# trigger pull.
And declare it the culmination of the evolution of Glock Perfection.
And a hammer. Don’t forget the hammer.
grizzlyblake
06-15-19, 07:09
I'm old and like simplicity now. After a few tours and decades of life logistics are important to me. I can buy a case of 1000 9mm ball for around 180.00. I don't even own anything other than 9's now with the exception of a single suppressed .22. What you're saying makes sense but my pistol requirements now are met with a Glock 45, 19, or 43 100% of the time. We all make our choices based on our own knowledge, experiences, and lifestyle, and are all captive to our own reality, good or bad. Rifles are great but rarely available when we need them. I'm not a law enforcement precision rifleman anymore and gave up the SWAT team at 50 years old, so form me 99% of the time it's a 9mm.
There's some wisdom here.
I do wonder why everything is so carbine centric these days - Instagram, training, marketing, forums, etc. It's 90% carbines over pistols, when the potential use case is the inverse. I'm speaking specifically of the majority of shooters being non-LE.
I want to say it's just LARPing the GWOT stuff and playing imaginary patriot, but that hits me in the feels a little bit.
I prefer more rounds to more bullet, generally.
How many rounds are enough for you? I have a S&W M&P 2.0 .45 and really like it. It's mainly a house / range gun. I use the S&W 14- rd mags in it. Would a 17 or 24 rd 9mm be a better weapon in case I grab it for HD? Probably wouldn't matter.
The M&P is a soft shooting gun. Firing fast and accurately at close range isnt difficult. .45 penetrates less building than 9mm generally so that may be a good thing.
Sometimes I think about getting a full-size M&P 2.0 9mm or a Beretta M9. But for what i use them for i think any will do.
I dont shoot the .45 any less due to ammo cost.
I'm no one important but I think people put too much energy and emotion into calibers. Pick a modern service caliber and go. The main reason I stick with 9 is price and size of guns chambered in that. If all prices were equal I'd be just as happy with 45, 45GAP, 40SW, 357sig. I always kinda like the 40sw and if I could find a decent used older 229 from the 90s in 40 I'd buy it and a 357sig barrel.
Back in the immediate post Soviet days of Eastern Europe there were gangs everywhere. My mom's cousin got involved with one and was witness to a shooting in Kiev. 3 gang members came up to a rival member who he was hanging out with. Words were exchanged and this guy dropped all 3 with a 6.35mm handgun (25acp). All 3 dropped where they stood and didn't get up. No one was thinking ballistics, ammo selection, barrel length, split times, night sights...etc.....just point and shoot. Meanwhile, maybe a decade ago NYPD shot a guy 25 times at close range and he lived
I don't think I'd be comfortable carrying a 25acp but so much goes into a shooting that's beyond our control that in my opinion one should buy something they can afford in a modern service caliber and rock on
I say why use a "service / duty / military" pistol caliber when you are none of those while carrying?
I enjoy my smallish pistol that while still holding a decent number of rounds has less recoil and report than a 9mm. I know it won't do as well through buildings and auto's and such but that's more likely to be a good thing than a bad thing for non-duty carry.
Sounds like another discussion though, maybe I'll start one.
I do wonder why everything is so carbine centric these days - Instagram, training, marketing, forums, etc. It's 90% carbines over pistols, when the potential use case is the inverse. I'm speaking specifically of the majority of shooters being non-LE.
Cyclical. Also, user/demographic and venue specific. There isn't as much carbine-centric right not as there has been. Most new-class offerings and emerging instructors are doing more handgun than long gun.
Some folks have always had it right... fitness, physical skills, bladecraft and expedients, then handguns, but they are a minority.
Almost everyone can pass reasonable standards with a carbine, and go extended periods with less skill maintenance. Handguns are unforgiving and remind you that you suck out loud. Some can't handle that.
I say why use a "service / duty / military" pistol caliber when you are none of those while carrying?
.
Because the idea is to carry the best that you can comfortably conceal and shoot which has been thoroughly tested.
I can comfortably conceal a G19 all year. It's not visible and I don't know it's there. A G17 is just long enough that it starts to print a little in the summer. Whereas pocket guns are more of a convenience. They're often slow(er) to draw, harder to practice with and more costly to do so while at the same time being less comfortable to hold. I'm not going to take a class using a pocket 32 and if I'm not training with it why am I carrying it?
I do carry a Ruger LCP380 but it's very very rarely, when I can't conceal a larger size gun. I understand it's limitations but at this point it's better than nothing. Usually it's when I have to wear restrictive clothing and the only option is pocket or ankle carry
Honestly .45 ACP was the first duty load I was ever formally trained on and for half a decade was all I knew before I was allowed to “branch out”.
It just made sense because I had no other context. I’m not besmirching 9mm but sometimes I think people go too far the other way thinking .45 is fuddlore.
It’s my comfort caliber insofar that I just have more time behind it.
I have more thoughts but am too tired tight now to build a thesis around it
Because the idea is to carry the best that you can comfortably conceal and shoot which has been thoroughly tested.
I can comfortably conceal a G19 all year. It's not visible and I don't know it's there. A G17 is just long enough that it starts to print a little in the summer. Whereas pocket guns are more of a convenience. They're often slow(er) to draw, harder to practice with and more costly to do so while at the same time being less comfortable to hold. I'm not going to take a class using a pocket 32 and if I'm not training with it why am I carrying it?
That is true with smaller / pocket guns.
But If one still does the training and practice the fruit of that labor is the pleasure (at least not displeasure) of carrying a smaller, lighter gun with confidence.
My EDC of a G19 lasted 9 years. I'm only willing to carry a gun that size in the cooler weeks. (FL)
556BlackRifle
06-15-19, 11:04
Firefly, My EDC is a G19, or a G43 if t-shirt and shorts weather. Over the years I've carried 357Mag, 9mm, 40S&W, 357Sig and 45ACP. With the new bullet technologies, 9mm is a good choice for me. I no longer carry professionally but I take it seriously and I try to shoot at minimum once per month, but sometimes I shoot every week. I usually shoot 250 rounds per session sometimes more. With 15 + 1 in my 19 and a spare mag, I don't feel under gunned. I do feel undergunned with the 43's capacity so I have a +1 extension on the primary mag and a + 2 extension on the spare. (I recently picked up a 365 and I'm in the process of vetting it now.)
ETA: I think that training and basic marksmanship are more of a core issue here than one caliber vs another.
Firefly, My EDC is a G19, or a G43 if t-shirt and shorts weather. Over the years I've carried 357Mag, 9mm, 40S&W, 357Sig and 45ACP. With the new bullet technologies, 9mm is a good choice for me. I no longer carry professionally but I take it seriously and I try to shoot at minimum once per month, but sometimes I shoot every week. I usually shoot 250 rounds per session sometimes more. With 15 + 1 in my 19 and a spare mag, I don't feel under gunned. I do feel undergunned with the 43's capacity so I have a +1 extension on the primary mag and a + 2 extension on the spare. (I recently picked up a 365 and I'm in the process of vetting it now.)
ETA: I think that training and basic marksmanship are more of a core issue here than one caliber vs another.
Try a G43X. Extra capacity without the compromise of mag extensions, along with a more positive master grip at the holster.
556BlackRifle
06-15-19, 12:11
Try a G43X. Extra capacity without the compromise of mag extensions, along with a more positive master grip at the holster.
I tried the 43x and I like the grip width however, it's not significantly better than my G19 (butt wise) so it's kind of moot. The deal breaker for me is the slide finish. I strongly dislike a bright silver finish on a combat weapon.
Doc Safari
06-15-19, 13:06
I tried the 43x and I like the grip width however, it's not significantly better than my G19 (butt wise) so it's kind of moot. The deal breaker for me is the slide finish. I strongly dislike a bright silver finish on a combat weapon.
Me too. Especially when the bright sun hits it.
Honestly .45 ACP was the first duty load I was ever formally trained on and for half a decade was all I knew before I was allowed to “branch out”.
It just made sense because I had no other context. I’m not besmirching 9mm but sometimes I think people go too far the other way thinking .45 is fuddlore.
It’s my comfort caliber insofar that I just have more time behind it.
I have more thoughts but am too tired tight now to build a thesis around it
Eh, that's where I am. The G21 was my issued duty gun for years and a G30 was my off duty gun. So my personal weapons turned into G21s and G30s since that is what I am most comfortable with. Not to mention all the mags and carry gear I have piled up over the years. It wouldn't make sense to me switch everything over to 9mm, although I do envy the cheaper ammo.
I tried the 43x and I like the grip width however, it's not significantly better than my G19 (butt wise) so it's kind of moot. The deal breaker for me is the slide finish. I strongly dislike a bright silver finish on a combat weapon.
Me too. Especially when the bright sun hits it.
Here's a suggestion:
It looks like you can get the slide cerakoted for 45 to 60 bucks.
Bargaining strategies are different. If it was me, and I was getting blue label pricing, I'd STFU and send it off to get coated, well actually, I'd MolyResin the thing myself, but you get the idea.
If not blue label, dicker with the LGS, 'man I'd like to get this but that stainless slide really isn't what I'd want, are they available in black?' 'Not yet.' 'Well shot, what's the best you can go on it, then?' (the rest of the dickering is on you) 'So, you'll give it to me at $439.00, well the Glock store has them at $474 with a black slide (they do), it will cost me 60 to get it coated, how about we meet in the middle and I'll give you $409.00, send it off to be coated, and keep the money local.
$449.00 seems to be the internet pricing for the 43X. Remember you have to pay transfer fee if you get it shipped to an FFL, so add that in.
Glockstore might have the best deal for the black slide: https://www.glockstore.com/Glock-43X-9mm?quantity=1&color=1&custcol9=93
556BlackRifle
06-15-19, 20:47
Here's a suggestion:
It looks like you can get the slide cerakoted for 45 to 60 bucks.
Bargaining strategies are different. If it was me, and I was getting blue label pricing, I'd STFU and send it off to get coated, well actually, I'd MolyResin the thing myself, but you get the idea.
If not blue label, dicker with the LGS, 'man I'd like to get this but that stainless slide really isn't what I'd want, are they available in black?' 'Not yet.' 'Well shot, what's the best you can go on it, then?' (the rest of the dickering is on you) 'So, you'll give it to me at $439.00, well the Glock store has them at $474 with a black slide (they do), it will cost me 60 to get it coated, how about we meet in the middle and I'll give you $469.00 to keep the money local.
$449.00 seems to be the internet pricing for the 43X. Remember you have to pay transfer fee if you get it shipped to an FFL, so add that in.
Glockstore might have the best deal for the black slide: https://www.glockstore.com/Glock-43X-9mm?quantity=1&color=1&custcol9=93
Thanks for the suggestion. I realize that I could cerakote the slide but since I already have a 43, if I wanted a 43x / 48, I'd just go with a slide swap. As I mentioned, I'd just rather carry a 19 if I'm going to have a grip the size of the 43x / 48.
ETA: The Sig 365 offers 10 + 1 capacity in a much smaller footprint with 12 + 1 capacity if I want a slightly larger grip length.
And a hammer. Don’t forget the hammer.
Grip safety too. And random stoppages. ;)
Me too. Especially when the bright sun hits it.
It's ok in dim sun?
It's ok in dim sun?
Yep, I get my silver slide beauties out at EENT and put them away at BMNT. I use that system because it syncs with the household stand-to times.
Yep, I get my silver slide beauties out at EENT and put them away at BMNT. I use that system because it syncs with the household stand-to times.
#15: Dawn’s when the French and Indians attack.
I was on a scene where a guy got shot in the eye socket with a 45ACP and survived. He was bent slightly forward and the projectile flowed the curvature of the socket and did not penetrate the brain. He did loose an eye out of the deal. Everyone was caught by surprise by it. We have since transitioned to G-17 with G-2.
ramairthree
06-16-19, 17:24
Grip safety too. And random stoppages. ;)
Alright.
You guys are going to far.
Single stack 45 steel framed with frame mounted safety but still striker fired gun, no grip safety.
I truly find it amusing with new, groundbreaking, innovative guns mimicking the size and capacity of say the Star BDM or
4586.
DeathNinja
06-16-19, 17:27
I stopped in Eau Claire WI Scheels last week to purchase a G-19X, aside from a small selection of 1911's, which were as I recall just three display cases containing a pair of Colt's, a single Ruger, and a whole bunch of Kimber's, all in .45 ACP, aside from those three cases, keeping in mind that Scheels is a big time pistol stocking store, every other new pistol in the store was a 9mm, not a single .40, or .45 beyond those 1911's!
Like someone posted earlier, you pick your weapon/caliber, for what you think will be the intended role. If you feel you need a large caliber for personal defense, then that is your choice.
A Desert Eagle in .44 Mag or .50AE would most certainly stop just about any human threat your probably going to run across, but I don't feel like carrying around five pounds of handgun, thus I go for something smaller and in a smaller caliber...besides, I don't have the back anymore to handle such a large piece.
Animals are tougher/more ignorant than most humans. Most people, even after getting hit with a pellet, would be hauling ass and saying to themselves "oh crap, I just got shot"!
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-16-19, 17:45
Plenty of .45s around these parts. HK45, S&W M&P and shield 45s, Glocks, XDs, Walthers. We are a patriotic bunch. .40s are in desperate decline.
It's ok in dim sum?
It's ok, but the soy sauce makes a mess of the Glock. It's better to just use chopsticks.
It's ok, but the soy sauce makes a mess of the Glock. It's better to just use chopsticks.
You win.
This has been done to death and you can find statistics to support whatever you believe.
I shoot and carry 9mm because it's affordable, the guns tend to hold more rounds, and it's easy to shoot accurately.
I've also shot and enjoyed .45 ACP but not having to pay more for it.
Choose your pill and rock on.
This right here. When I first started in handguns, practice ammo in .40 ran around 20% higher than 9mm, .45 was 45-50%. Now it seems it's more like .40 is 50% and .45 double that of 9mm. In my early to mid 20's I was in that camp of "bigger is better, 9mm is unnecessary in full sized guns". (I did carry a .380 pocket pistol for a while, but variety of reasons switched out to a .32, but don't hold that against me too much).
Relatively recently I went full bore 9mm. Gel tests on line, and any redneck science tests of my own put out some really impressive results in .45. I just don't like the .45 as much. 9mm is cheaper. More rounds. I've bought thousands of rounds of 9 in the past six or seven months. Shot, at least for me, a heap of it.
I'll keep my .45's, and maybe even shoot it some, but it's just not for me in every day use.
Honestly as much as I like .45. For disclosure I am actively stockpiling 10mm and 6.5 for the boogaloo.
sundance435
06-17-19, 08:44
Took out my Colt repro 1911A1 and Glock 26.5 the other day. Haven't shot a .45 in years and a 1911 even longer. As soon as I shot that old boy, the nostalgia came back. Even with the crappy WWII sights, I was just more accurate with it than the Glock, but that also could've had something to do with having to focus on the sights more - plus, as FF said, there's just something pleasant about the recoil from a 230gr out of a full size 1911. That said, follow ups with the 26 were much quicker and I had 2-3 more rounds on tap in a smaller package. I should've brought my 19 to compare against the 1911, but that wasn't really what I was going for. So here I am, trying to convince myself I don't need a modern 1911, since everything I have is Glock-centered and that's what I shoot 99% of the time...there's just something about 1911s.
I've come and gone from commanders 5 times in as many decades.
Lately I had converted over to tupperware in 9mm+p (PPQ / P90). Good solid pistol, in the +P, I really like the 124 grain loadings, etc.
I still shot 1911s in 10mm for fun and hunting, but had the urge for another LW commander in 45. Had been shopping them, but the LWs had blued slides. So I was looking at cerrakoting one.
Then I found a vintage (early 70s) orphan at a show that had been something-coated (we think duracoated) from a vet at a table selling personal guns who clearly needed/wanted to sell it. Had been a labor of love. Told him i could not do his asking price, but would give it a good home and held out some ben franklins.
He took it and I had a LW Commander again. In light OD mysterykote with khaki g10 grip panels.
I half expected it to be a problem, but the durn thing shoots great, had 3 wilson 8 round mags. So i did a bunch more shooting with including with HST carry ammo.
I had forgotten how good lightweight Commanders carry. And the first two or three shots with this one I am dead nuts, better than any other pistol I have. And even after several mags I'm comparable to what I am with Tupperware.
I've got to get more contrast on the sights and may go to some combat sights, but it rewoke the 1911 Commander love.
Intellectually I know the Tupperware makes more sense, but I do not feel under-armed with the commander.
Lately I keep my 45 and 10mm perversion to myself, as I know the right answer is "all you need is a g19 and a case of ammo". But I'll fess up since I know Im not alone now.
everyone loves shooting it, though for fun I usually stick with 185g just to try to save the alloy frame longer.
I can usually pick up 45 plinking ammo $2-3 more then similar 9 mm plinking at the local mega gun store. HST online was a bit more but not much more then 40 or 10 mm or any of the other non 9 mm calibers.
You need Glocks, 1911s, 10mm, 6.5, LMT tranny rifles, and HK stuff if you want even a snowballs chance in Hell when the boogaloo happens.
and like....crates of .45 for the aftermath
ViniVidivici
06-17-19, 11:44
You need Glocks, 1911s, 10mm, 6.5, LMT tranny rifles, and HK stuff if you want even a snowballs chance in Hell when the boogaloo happens.
and like....crates of .45 for the aftermath
And toilet paper. Lots of toilet paper. The currency of the post-apocolyptic era.
You guys need to reload, according to my figures, this is what it costs me to reload:
45ACP 185gr JHP: 19.2 cents per round
9mm 147gr JHP: 16.2 cents per round
9mm 124gr FMJ = 13.02 cents per round
45ACP 230gr FMJ = 16.6 cents per round
You need Glocks, 1911s, 10mm, 6.5, LMT tranny rifles, and HK stuff if you want even a snowballs chance in Hell when the boogaloo happens.
and like....crates of .45 for the aftermathIf you had not mentioned LMT and HK l'd say you be trolling us!
TP and bleach are regular basement stash items.
As to ammo, I add cases of cheap steel case 9mm, 223 and 7.62x39 to trade (and shoot in a jam). This in addition to my regular stash.
I don't worry about an aftermath, but have been without power 5 days, and could see 2-3 weeks easily.
You guys need to reload, according to my figures, this is what it costs me to reload:
45ACP 185gr JHP: 19.2 cents per round
9mm 147gr JHP: 16.2 cents per round
9mm 124gr FMJ = 13.02 cents per round
45ACP 230gr FMJ = 16.6 cents per round
I reloaded everything to the point of gas checked revolver rounds, paper patched 45-120's, all casted by me, and everything in between. The reloading became more expensive and time consuming than guns! Because of my logistical simplification I sold everything and just buy bulk .22, 5.56, and 9 mm, with a few 12 gauge and 7.62 thrown in.
I've tried to switch to a 9mm for a CCW gun a few times over the last decade without a whole lot of success and have pretty much come to the conclusion that a full sized 1911 in 45 works best for me. I'm tall and scrawny and the single stack just conceals better for me. Over the years I have tried a G19, CZ75, M&P and FNS and they all look like I am trying to hide a box of cereal under my shirt. With a good belt and holster the 1911 just disappears on me. I also shoot it better than any of my wonder nines so that's what I carry. I reload 45 so ammo cost isn't a huge issue and I enjoy reloading as a hobby unto itself. If I didn't have a good stash of 9MM I would probably sell all my modern guns and stick to just 45 ACP and 45 Colt. I don't think the 1911 is the end all be all (or any gun for that matter) and always recommend to people to use what works for them.
Just another random thought.... as a flight medic I have seen people shot with everything over almost two decades and have come to the conclusion that shot placement and a bit of luck are the key factors with handgun calibers. The last dude I took care of that was shot was hit with a 22LR right in the heart. He was dead on scene. People can absorb a surprising number of handgun rounds to the torso and occasionally shots to the head with surprisingly little damage. Never had anyone survive a rifle of shotgun round to the chest.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-17-19, 23:31
Good Lord people stop saying “boogaloo.”
I reloaded everything to the point of gas checked revolver rounds, paper patched 45-120's, all casted by me, and everything in between. The reloading became more expensive and time consuming than guns! Because of my logistical simplification I sold everything and just buy bulk .22, 5.56, and 9 mm, with a few 12 gauge and 7.62 thrown in.
I think the reloading can become the main attraction to a certain type of guy. I'm not that guy.
I ran out to the range this afternoon to vet a new load for 115gr JHP using Win 231, shot acceptable accuracy (5 clustered @ 25 with my Glock 17 RMR and okay out of the iron sighted pistols). This evening, I've loaded 800 on my RL550. I'll shoot a couple hundred tomorrow morning, and load at least 800 more in the evening. Repeat the next day. I switched back to 115gr because I'm out of 147gr and the places I buy from are out of stock.
All I know about reloading is how to kind of set up my Dillon and crank the handle. It is a means to enable me to shot more rounds, not a hobby.
Good Lord people stop saying “boogaloo.”
Not wanting to hear it wont make it not happen
Good Lord people stop saying “boogaloo.”
Which meaning causes you heartburn?
Boogaloo or bugalú (also: shing-a-ling, Latin boogaloo, Latin R&B) is a genre of Latin music and dance which was popular in the United States in the 1960s.
Boogaloo origin: Orgy by a group of island native midgets
Boogaloo: being serviced in every hole
I just boogaloo'd by some sexy dudes.
A common Libertarian meme to reference the overthrowing of a government or authoritarian force by a(n) (armed) revolution.
This can also be in regard to a societal revolution whereby the citizenry of the United States become aware of the reality of certain political topics, or are “ redpilled ”, rather than using their preconceived emotions to form an opinion on those specific political topics.
Dude: Rising politicians are calling for the banning of certain firearms, and these new Red Flag laws are allowing for the police to confiscate our firearms!
Ancap: It’s Boogaloo time.
Or, Ringo Starr
Back off, Boo-ga-loo, I said
Back off, Boo-ga-loo, come on
Back off, Boo-ga-loo, Boo
Back off, Boo-ga-loo
What d'yer think you're gonna do
I got a flash right from the start
Wake up, meat head
Don't pretend that you are dead
Get yourself up off the cart
Get yourself together now
And give me something tasty
Everything you try to do
You know it sure sound wasted
Back off, Boo-ga-loo, I said
Back off, Boo-ga-loo
You think you're a groove
Standing there in your wallpapers shoes
And your socks that match your eyes
Back off, Boo-ga-loo, I said
Back off, Boo-ga-loo, come on
Back off, Boo-ga-loo, Boo
I honestly didn't know it was used in the context of revolution.
Good Lord people stop saying “boogaloo.”
Boogalee? ;)
My very first carry gun way back in 1984 was a BHP loaded with 124gr Nyclads (for that old school nostalgia bunch), so I'm an old school 9mm guy. After I got out of the .mil I had to start over with a wheelgun in .357 for the job, but I was always a 9mm guy. In the mid 90's I got on a .45 kick and carried an early Springfield 1911 that was throated to carry 200gr Flying Ashtrays (more nostalgia). I carried that until I got into PSD work in the late 90's and the 5" 1911 printed too much, so I got my first polymer gun, which was a Gen 2.5 Glock 19C stoked with 124gr +P Gold Dots. The uniform duty gun became a G34 and I stuck with the Glock 9mm combo for the most part after that, with the exception of 2004 when I campaigned a Wilson KZ-45 on the shooting circuit for a year and carried a S&W 1911PD for the sake of muscle memory.
I switched departments somewhere in the late 2000's (time has a way of flowing together when you get so far along) and the issue gun became a Glock 21, but I still carried a G19 off duty. Now that I'm fully retired from commissioned work and no longer feel a duty to respond when people get stupid, I'm comfy and happy carrying my Shield 9mm and watching the world zoom by.
But my nightstand gun is a G21SF with a grip reduction, X300 w/DG switch and Arrendondo +4's for 17+1+17+17 230gr Gold Dots. I mean it's not like I have to lug it around with me so... :)
Doc Safari
06-18-19, 11:33
I want a gun chambered in .45 Boogaloo.
:laugh:
It occurs to me that the next model Glock announces should be a G48 in .45 AARP. I’ll buy one, just for funsies.
I thought about this some more today, and realized I would prefer a single stack 10mm. But I’ll buy the .45 single stack still, if thats something they decide to make.
noonesshowmonkey
06-18-19, 14:32
I’d say that there are too many variables that cannot be accounted for when dealing with shots on live tissue to ever use anecdotal evidence. I say this fully aware that many times in my life I’ve resorted to anecdotal evidence. Perfect I am not.
...
As noted, handguns < rifles.
If there are too many variables present for a clear application of scientific principles which one could use to characterize wound patterns, then all we have left are anecdotes. Anecdotal "evidence" is not, however, "data". Unless we have much of it, carefully gathered and analyzed. But, I digress.
My anecdotes, acquired from working four years in the most violent parts of one of the most violent cities in the country, up to my elbows in gun violence and around many, many gunshot wounds, include many instances in which .45 AARP failed to accomplish a task that 9mm or .40 S&W easily managed.
These instances universally related to defeating barriers of various kinds, but typically anything with an even moderate slope to it. This includes obvious things like windshields, and less obvious, like the human skull. I have recovered largely undamaged .45 AARP slugs from the folds of a hoodie, a baggy pair of jeans, and inside the headrest of a vehicle. I have seen several .45 AARP GSWs to the head result in a deflection, rather than penetration, of the braincase. The same wound would have almost certainly been a penetration of the skull, and likely terminal damage to the brain in nearly any other caliber. Simply put, physics is not on the side of .45 when encountering anything but meat. They are slow, have a large diameter to distribute their force across, and are thus easily turned aside by anything harder than a thick layer of skull, some sloped autoglass, or even a few sheets of denim or a thick layer of subcutaneous fat.
This is not to say that I haven't seen one-and-done .45 AARP shootings. That has certainly been the case.
But, as above, I've seen enough gun violence to notice some trends. 9mm, especially target ammo (WWB 115s), skips off windshields easily. .40 typically performs better against autoglass. A .45 AARP will defeat the human skull so long as the deflection angle is relatively close to 90 degrees, and will deflect off at angles which 9mm or .40 will still penetrate from. Twice, I've been on scene with .45 AARP headshots, both failing to penetrate the skull, and both times the patient died days later from intra-cranial swelling secondary to having his bell rung (rather than having his eggs scrambled). Several times, .45 AARP has failed to defeat large bones like the scapula or humorous, and was unable to penetrate into the torso. The same hit from 9mm or .40 caused much more dangerous wounds.
Overall, handguns are pretty crappy at killing people. Most of the willful violence that was successful in killing the target involved multiple, rapid, up-close hits to the upper chest, neck, and face. That kind of violence will kill someone, even if you're using .22LR or .25 ACP, never you mind a serious caliber like 9mm, .40, or .45.
The most serious wounds that I dealt with were caused by 5.56x45 or 7.62x39, and they were pretty gnarly.
I agree with NongShim, the easy way to understand this is: handguns < rifles.
Doc Safari
06-18-19, 14:38
If there are too many variables present for a clear application of scientific principles which one could use to characterize wound patterns, then all we have left are anecdotes. Anecdotal "evidence" is not, however, "data". Unless we have much of it, carefully gathered and analyzed. But, I digress.
My anecdotes, acquired from working four years in the most violent parts of one of the most violent cities in the country, up to my elbows in gun violence and around many, many gunshot wounds, include many instances in which .45 AARP failed to accomplish a task that 9mm or .40 S&W easily managed.
These instances universally related to defeating barriers of various kinds, but typically anything with an even moderate slope to it. This includes obvious things like windshields, and less obvious, like the human skull. I have recovered largely undamaged .45 AARP slugs from the folds of a hoodie, a baggy pair of jeans, and inside the headrest of a vehicle. I have seen several .45 AARP GSWs to the head result in a deflection, rather than penetration, of the braincase. The same wound would have almost certainly been a penetration of the skull, and likely terminal damage to the brain in nearly any other caliber. Simply put, physics is not on the side of .45 when encountering anything but meat. They are slow, have a large diameter to distribute their force across, and are thus easily turned aside by anything harder than a thick layer of skull, some sloped autoglass, or even a few sheets of denim or a thick layer of subcutaneous fat.
This is not to say that I haven't seen one-and-done .45 AARP shootings. That has certainly been the case.
But, as above, I've seen enough gun violence to notice some trends. 9mm, especially target ammo (WWB 115s), skips off windshields easily. .40 typically performs better against autoglass. A .45 AARP will defeat the human skull so long as the deflection angle is relatively close to 90 degrees, and will deflect off at angles which 9mm or .40 will still penetrate from. Twice, I've been on scene with .45 AARP headshots, both failing to penetrate the skull, and both times the patient died days later from intra-cranial swelling secondary to having his bell rung (rather than having his eggs scrambled). Several times, .45 AARP has failed to defeat large bones like the scapula or humorous, and was unable to penetrate into the torso. The same hit from 9mm or .40 caused much more dangerous wounds.
Overall, handguns are pretty crappy at killing people. Most of the willful violence that was successful in killing the target involved multiple, rapid, up-close hits to the upper chest, neck, and face. That kind of violence will kill someone, even if you're using .22LR or .25 ACP, never you mind a serious caliber like 9mm, .40, or .45.
The most serious wounds that I dealt with were caused by 5.56x45 or 7.62x39, and they were pretty gnarly.
I agree with NongShim, the easy way to understand this is: handguns < rifles.
Great post.
If there are too many variables present for a clear application of scientific principles which one could use to characterize wound patterns, then all we have left are anecdotes. Anecdotal "evidence" is not, however, "data". Unless we have much of it, carefully gathered and analyzed. But, I digress.
My anecdotes, acquired from working four years in the most violent parts of one of the most violent cities in the country, up to my elbows in gun violence and around many, many gunshot wounds, include many instances in which .45 AARP failed to accomplish a task that 9mm or .40 S&W easily managed.
These instances universally related to defeating barriers of various kinds, but typically anything with an even moderate slope to it. This includes obvious things like windshields, and less obvious, like the human skull. I have recovered largely undamaged .45 AARP slugs from the folds of a hoodie, a baggy pair of jeans, and inside the headrest of a vehicle. I have seen several .45 AARP GSWs to the head result in a deflection, rather than penetration, of the braincase. The same wound would have almost certainly been a penetration of the skull, and likely terminal damage to the brain in nearly any other caliber. Simply put, physics is not on the side of .45 when encountering anything but meat. They are slow, have a large diameter to distribute their force across, and are thus easily turned aside by anything harder than a thick layer of skull, some sloped autoglass, or even a few sheets of denim or a thick layer of subcutaneous fat.
This is not to say that I haven't seen one-and-done .45 AARP shootings. That has certainly been the case.
But, as above, I've seen enough gun violence to notice some trends. 9mm, especially target ammo (WWB 115s), skips off windshields easily. .40 typically performs better against autoglass. A .45 AARP will defeat the human skull so long as the deflection angle is relatively close to 90 degrees, and will deflect off at angles which 9mm or .40 will still penetrate from. Twice, I've been on scene with .45 AARP headshots, both failing to penetrate the skull, and both times the patient died days later from intra-cranial swelling secondary to having his bell rung (rather than having his eggs scrambled). Several times, .45 AARP has failed to defeat large bones like the scapula or humorous, and was unable to penetrate into the torso. The same hit from 9mm or .40 caused much more dangerous wounds.
Overall, handguns are pretty crappy at killing people. Most of the willful violence that was successful in killing the target involved multiple, rapid, up-close hits to the upper chest, neck, and face. That kind of violence will kill someone, even if you're using .22LR or .25 ACP, never you mind a serious caliber like 9mm, .40, or .45.
The most serious wounds that I dealt with were caused by 5.56x45 or 7.62x39, and they were pretty gnarly.
I agree with NongShim, the easy way to understand this is: handguns < rifles.
Tl;dr
:p :jester:
But real talk, 45 Awesome Combat Pistol is not a headshot round.
Now, if we wanna talk thoracic cavity and hitting dat Aortic valve....
"Twice, I've been on scene with .45 AARP headshots, both failing to penetrate the skull, and both times the patient died days later from intra-cranial swelling secondary to having his bell rung (rather than having his eggs scrambled"
I believe you. I'll bet those guys were still done for day, though.
Also, poor barrier penetration can be bad or good.
"Most of the willful violence that was successful in killing the target involved multiple, rapid, up-close hits to the upper chest, neck, and face. That kind of violence will kill someone, even if you're using .22LR or .25 ACP, never you mind a serious caliber like 9mm, .40, or .45"
I normally carry a Beretta Cheetah .32, so that's good to know. ;)
Eurodriver
06-19-19, 10:04
You guys need to reload, according to my figures, this is what it costs me to reload:
45ACP 185gr JHP: 19.2 cents per round
9mm 147gr JHP: 16.2 cents per round
9mm 124gr FMJ = 13.02 cents per round
45ACP 230gr FMJ = 16.6 cents per round
I reload, and have found it is not worth my time to do so for anything except precision rifle ammo.
Your figures are also meaningless unless you give us the specific bullet used as well. 147gr Speer GDHP > 147gr Hornady red plastic thing.
I reload, and have found it is not worth my time to do so for anything except precision rifle ammo.
Yeah, I agree with Euro here. I'll load match stuff, 45-70, and large-bore revolver, but bulk practice ammo for the common cals is cheap enough that it's not really worth the time investment at this point.
These days, I keep around some 40s and a 45 as a hedge against 9mm drying up due to panic hoarding. I don't shoot those handguns much, though.
sundance435
06-19-19, 11:56
If there are too many variables present for a clear application of scientific principles which one could use to characterize wound patterns, then all we have left are anecdotes. Anecdotal "evidence" is not, however, "data". Unless we have much of it, carefully gathered and analyzed. But, I digress.
My anecdotes, acquired from working four years in the most violent parts of one of the most violent cities in the country, up to my elbows in gun violence and around many, many gunshot wounds, include many instances in which .45 AARP failed to accomplish a task that 9mm or .40 S&W easily managed.
Overall, handguns are pretty crappy at killing people. Most of the willful violence that was successful in killing the target involved multiple, rapid, up-close hits to the upper chest, neck, and face. That kind of violence will kill someone, even if you're using .22LR or .25 ACP, never you mind a serious caliber like 9mm, .40, or .45.
The most serious wounds that I dealt with were caused by 5.56x45 or 7.62x39, and they were pretty gnarly.
I agree with NongShim, the easy way to understand this is: handguns < rifles.
Science = Heavier and slower penetrates deeper. There's reason rifle rounds suffer less over penetration than most handgun and shotgun rounds. Throw in slope and that's a different story and you would want faster (not necessarily lighter). But, all things equal, heavier/slower penetrates deeper than faster/lighter. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool 9mm convert, not because I think it's a superior round, but because all handgun rounds suck and I have more margin for error with twice more rounds than something else.
Also, and I'm not saying you didn't see it, but there's no way a .45, or almost any round, failed to penetrate a hoodie without something else going on.
I don't reload commodities stuff, though I have the capability.
There are calibers that are easy to reload for and commodity stuff is unobtainable or not a good value.
They also tend to be bigger bores. 10mm, 41 mag, 45
I get close out bulk bullets for 40 / 10 mm very cheaply and use that 4 plinking / practice 10 mm.
Same for cast bullet fun loads for my son's 41 mag, and I reload his hunting rounds just because it's easy and cheap.
45 I can get commodity ammo fairly often from the LMGS, so I don't reload for it lately. But in the past I did.
I also reload pet hunting loads in rifle calibers largely due to not being able to get what I want for anything less than stupid pricing. I can reload a box of 50 hunting loads for less than what the same exact configuration would cost from the manufacturer for 20. I then will often make practice loadings that shoot the same point of impact but with cheaper bullets.
MountainRaven
06-19-19, 12:35
Science = Heavier and slower penetrates deeper. There's reason rifle rounds suffer less over penetration than most handgun and shotgun rounds. Throw in slope and that's a different story and you would want faster (not necessarily lighter). But, all things equal, heavier/slower penetrates deeper than faster/lighter. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool 9mm convert, not because I think it's a superior round, but because all handgun rounds suck and I have more margin for error with twice more rounds than something else.
Also, and I'm not saying you didn't see it, but there's no way a .45, or almost any round, failed to penetrate a hoodie without something else going on.
Your science is grossly over-simplified.
Bullet shape and center of gravity plays a huge part in why rifles, "suffer less over penetration than most handgun and shotgun rounds."
And heavier and slower doesn't penetrate any deeper, if the sectional density isn't there: Compare getting hit with a baseball (~204J, SD: 0.036) or hockey puck (~204J) versus 22 LR (~168J, SD ~0.115) or 380 Auto (~245J, SD 0.108). The baseball or hockey puck will cause significant damage, but they aren't likely to break skin. A 380 or 22 will almost certainly break skin, sail through muscle and organs, and might even break bones on their way through.
(45 Auto, for reference, is schlepping a 230-gr bullet with a 0.162 sectional density at about 850 fps, versus a 40 S&W throwing a 0.161 sectional density 180-gr bullet at about 950 fps, or a a 9mm spiking a 147-gr 0.167 SD bullet at about 1000 fps. And the net difference is pretty much irrelevant - except that if simple barriers can defeat 9mm or 40, they will almost certainly defeat 45 Auto, too.)
Science = Heavier and slower penetrates deeper. There's reason rifle rounds suffer less over penetration than most handgun and shotgun rounds. Throw in slope and that's a different story and you would want faster (not necessarily lighter). But, all things equal, heavier/slower penetrates deeper than faster/lighter. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool 9mm convert, not because I think it's a superior round, but because all handgun rounds suck and I have more margin for error with twice more rounds than something else.
Also, and I'm not saying you didn't see it, but there's no way a .45, or almost any round, failed to penetrate a hoodie without something else going on.
But 147gr 9mm has greater sectional density than 200gr .45.
When talking HP, they all(good loads) penetrate about the same.
Talking about non-human targets (boars), you need a lot more penetration. Different tool for a different task.
I reload, and have found it is not worth my time to do so for anything except precision rifle ammo.
Your figures are also meaningless unless you give us the specific bullet used as well. 147gr Speer GDHP > 147gr Hornady red plastic thing.
Sorry MY data doesn't meet your needs. I listed what it cost me.
I usually go with Precision Delta or Everglades - whichever is in stock.
Right now I'm loading Precision Delta 115grJHP, CCI 500, 4.4gr W231, 1.086 oal. ETA: I have 6,000 185grJHP loaded using Montana Gold bullets because I couldn't find them at PD or E.
I am into 'coarse' rather than precision. What I do enables me to shoot between 1,000 and 2,000 a week.
As far as precision loading goes, no interest, I got back into service rifle this year (solely due to the intro of optics a couple years ago) and use Hornady Black 62gr and 75gr. When I'm convinced I'm out shooting my ammo, figure something out.
I ass-u-me that since you chose to be a CPA, you like dealing with the minutiae of precision reloading. Me on the other hand, breezed through Accounting 1 and 2 with 4.0's, enjoyed the classes thoroughly, and realized that doing it full time would suck the soul from my body. People are different. Precision reloading is not for me. :)
I want so bad before I die to see Glock introduce a single stack 8 round 45.
With a steel lower, frame mounted safety, and
3.75# trigger pull.
And declare it the culmination of the evolution of Glock Perfection.
If this ever happens, I might need a week off just to see what the internet does.
Good Lord people stop saying “boogaloo.”
I've noticed that people lamenting to the internet that they should stop engaging in a particular behavior hasn't worked too well.....it'll probably go out of fashion when something more annoying comes along. Don't worry, you'll have grudgingly embraced it by then.
You will be assimilated. :-)
Doc Safari
06-21-19, 08:37
Good Lord people stop saying “boogaloo.”
We're going to replace it with "yeet cannon."
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-21-19, 21:30
I've noticed that people lamenting to the internet that they should stop engaging in a particular behavior hasn't worked too well.....it'll probably go out of fashion when something more annoying comes along. Don't worry, you'll have grudgingly embraced it by then.
You will be assimilated. :-)
Ain't that the truth. I have always despised hearing "IT IS WHAT IT IS." Well no $)(*#. What else would it be? But of course I caught myself saying it the other day. I will never say "back in the day" or "it has been a minute" to mean a very long time. NEVAHHHHH
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