View Full Version : A Patriot
If you support your countries founding principles but don't support the current level of your countries government corruption, waste, career politicians, violating the constitution, left leaning commies, etc...
If 50% of the people that live in your country are immigrants that don't have American values or are american commies...
How can you be considered a patriot?
Supporting and defending what the country used to be vs the reality of what it is and is becoming is not not the same thing. Isn't a country made up of its people and government? Or is some fantasy ideal of what it used to be?
Nightvisionary
06-22-19, 10:16
The concept of patriotism is dead. Patriots are a nearly extinct breed. Many people espouse patriotism but only the smallest sliver of a minority are willing to put themselves on the line without government pay, government sanction, and government qualified immunity as the founders did. Most pay lip service to Patriotism and nationalism and consider themselves Patriots but when you ask how that belief is supported by action they usually have no response. I even see it here daily where the threads that get the most traction are the ones about movies, TV shows, and other meaningless bread and circuses while issues that will drastically affect our lives and the lives of our children and grandchildren get crickets. It's a sad disappointing thing to see because if the group of Americans here is so distracted and apathetic then I see little hope for the rest of America.
Thats what happens when a country no longer represents or stands for all the ideals, values, and principles that make people want to vigorously support and defend it.
I think todays patriots are idealists that want to support and defend what their country used to be and could be.
I'm seeing way to many people entering the country illegally and legally that don't have traditional American values and way too many americans that are socialists (especially in education k thru college). Also way too few people see work as an opportunity anymore. And way too many people on drugs both prescription and other.
If you support your countries founding principles but don't support the current level of your countries government corruption, waste, career politicians, violating the constitution, left leaning commies, etc...
If 50% of the people that live in your country are immigrants that don't have American values or are american commies...
How can you be considered a patriot?
Supporting and defending what the country used to be vs the reality of what it is and is becoming is not not the same thing. Isn't a country made up of its people and government? Or is some fantasy ideal of what it used to be?
Serious thought given to the answers:
Patriot: 1. a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.
If you support your countries founding principles but don't support the current level of your countries government corruption, waste, career politicians, violating the constitution, left leaning commies, etc...
If 50% of the people that live in your country are immigrants that don't have American values or are american commies...
Most of our ancestors were immigrants at some point in our family histories (unless your ancestors were Aboriginal American). If you are speaking to illegal immigrants and American values, they do, obviously, yearn to obtain what American offers, that is why they endured some degree of risk to get here. As far as being true Patriots, how do we know that given the opportunity, they wouldn't be? As it is now they have to fly low, under the radar, to avoid problems.
I know I'm wasting bandwidth typing this disclaimer:MY COMMENTS BEFORE AND AFTER THIS DISCLAIMER ARE BASED ON MY VIEW OF THE SITUATION AS IT EXISTS - I DO NOT SUPPORT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION - I DO SUPPORT SECURE BORDERS
In 2015, 44% of all Americans ages 18 to 44 were racial or ethnic minorities. In the same year, blacks made up 17% of the DOD active-duty military – somewhat higher than their share of the U.S. population ages 18 to 44 (13%). In 2015, 12% of all active-duty personnel were Hispanic, three times the share in 1980.
According to the last U.S. Census 18.3% of the population claimed Hispanic or Latino. This includes all ages, not just those of military age, so the Hispanics are representing. Of course this doesn't account for the illegals.
Apparently those Hispanics embrace their Country's values enough to serve in it's defense. Since whites make up 74% of the population (according to the last census) and only 56% of the armed forces are white, whites are serving at a similar rate.
I know that many folks who consider themselves patriots haven't served in the armed forces, but I feel it is a telling indicator of patriotism among the various ethnic and racial groups - including whites. Probably a good number of military-aged illegals would be willing to serve if given the chance of citizenship by doing so.
TL:DR - we have no true way of assessing the potential patriotism of the illegal immigrants; legal immigrants and their later day ancestors currently demonstrate patriotism by serving in the armed forces at about the same percentages as whites.
left leaning commies The Constitution, more correctly the Bill of Rights, sets out the right of freedom of speech to individuals, and the press: additionally, the right of the people to peaceable assemble is guaranteeed, along with the right to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Exercising of those rights isn't limited by the Constitution to those of a specific political leaning. All left leaning folks aren't commies. And even socialists such as Bernie Sanders have a right to seek election.
To endeavor to deny people their guaranteed rights simply to advance your political position is by definition, unpatriotic.
SAYING THIS AND ABIDING BY THE RULE OF LAW (AS I STRIVE TO DO) DOES NOT MEAN SUPPORT OF THOSE ISSUES - OKAY?
Isn't a country made up of its people and government?
It is, and the framers of the Constitution had the forward thinking vision to craft a document that could be changed by the majority of the people via Constitutional Amendments.
We need to fight for what we hold dear, but we also need to recognize that our Constitution allows dissent and change.
EDITED TO CHANGE A COUPLE OF THINGS I REALIZED WEREN'T LEGIT CONCLUSIONS - UNDERLINED
Nightvisionary
06-22-19, 11:31
26Inf, service in the military by itself isn't demonstrative of patriotism. It is often a good indicator but many join the military for socio-economic reasons completely unrelated to and without a thought given towards patriotism. As one of those hispanic former active duty personnel you spoke of I recognize that most members of the military have only a basic grasp of Constitutional principles and many have never read the document outside of a high school history class. When you flood a nation with uneducated unskilled foreigners that accept corruption as a normal way of life and do not appreciate and hold dear Constitutional principles and rule of law then you end up with an apathetic easily controlled citizenry. The kind of citizenry where "Patriot" veterans defend communists that would like nothing better than to burn the Constitution after they have enjoyed it's protections. If you think Bernie Sanders is a patriot then you are part of the problem not the solution.
morbidbattlecry
06-22-19, 12:11
If you support your countries founding principles but don't support the current level of your countries government corruption, waste, career politicians, violating the constitution, left leaning commies, etc...
If 50% of the people that live in your country are immigrants that don't have American values or are american commies...
How can you be considered a patriot?
Supporting and defending what the country used to be vs the reality of what it is and is becoming is not not the same thing. Isn't a country made up of its people and government? Or is some fantasy ideal of what it used to be?
Everyone of those questions is subjective to each individual that is asked.
LMT Shooter
06-23-19, 07:26
For a long time, I've considered the Declaration of Independence to be our nation's founding document, and the Constitution is merely the foundation of our current government, and it's important to remember that our current government is not the original government for our nation. Therefore I feel very comfortable calling myself or anyone else a patriot if I/they don't support things our current government does. If immigrants don't have American values, that problem is a product of our governments immigration policies.
I believe that our nation is comprised of our people and our land. The people formed the government.
"To secure these rights, governments are instituted among men" sums this up well.
So the two are separate entities and you can fully support the nation while opposing government policies. One can be a patriot and revolt against the government, and this is exactly what our Founding Fathers did in 1776. Then in 1789, they again abolished the government, although that time they did it peacefully. Don't we all consider them to be true patriots? Unfortunately there's always been some differences between the ideals of our nation and the realities of it, and always will be. Same for our government.
For a long time, I've considered the Declaration of Independence to be our nation's founding document, and the Constitution is merely the foundation of our current government, and it's important to remember that our current government is not the original government for our nation. Therefore I feel very comfortable calling myself or anyone else a patriot if I/they don't support things our current government does. If immigrants don't have American values, that problem is a product of our governments immigration policies.
I believe that our nation is comprised of our people and our land. The people formed the government.
"To secure these rights, governments are instituted among men" sums this up well.
So the two are separate entities and you can fully support the nation while opposing government policies. One can be a patriot and revolt against the government, and this is exactly what our Founding Fathers did in 1776. Then in 1789, they again abolished the government, although that time they did it peacefully. Don't we all consider them to be true patriots? Unfortunately there's always been some differences between the ideals of our nation and the realities of it, and always will be. Same for our government.
Thanks for sharing that LMT Shooter. I appreciate your perspective.
Here's my take on the word "Patriot". For my generation (age 59), we never used the word much because we just lived it. We grew up in a time when we knew the world was complicated and our biggest fear was a nuclear war. Other than that, we have been positive. We honored our Flag, tried to live Reasonable, Rational and Responsible lives, and treated our neighbor they way we wanted to be treated. Our biggest fault was we figured our Constitutional Republic would outlast us - it was bigger than us. Part of this biggest fault was we never thought it would be under a credible attack from within. There were always America haters, but not to the level we see today.
For the new generation, I am seeing a lot people constantly calling attention to themselves as a "Patriot". A lot of these people now have a narrow definition as to what a traditional American is. Many times these new "Patriots" have their roots in the Libertarian movement of the 1960's. Many don't even know the history of that group. How many know that Libertarians were spitting on returning US Military members from Vietnam? They were doing this along side an allied group, the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society or Weathermen). I possess a strong dose of skepticism when someone keeps holding up a sign which says: Patriot - Look at Me.
As I type this, I am looking at a copy of the Bill of Rights I have framed hanging on the wall. You can call me whatever you want, but the Constitution is what I keep close to heart. I don't need a label.
People move the goalposts too much for me to say what I am and am not anymore.
Just don’t be all up in my face asking me to give up anything for other people
BoringGuy45
06-23-19, 11:59
Our founding principles are the same, and the idea that we should no longer be willing to fight for this country because it's not what it was in the past is a dangerous thought. The truth is, the country started changing almost immediately after its founding. Not even a generation had gone by when the first attempts to circumvent the Bill of Rights were coming out...and some were even passing and being upheld. The country has been corrupt for a long time. Power corrupts. The greatness of the Founding Fathers was not that they believed they could create a utopia, it was that they knew they couldn't. They knew man's greed and evil, and so they set up a system that would suppress it the best it could, and would give the people recourse when their rights were violated. It's not perfect and it doesn't always work, but the principles are the same. The country is still worth fighting for.
Here's my take on the word "Patriot". For my generation (age 59), we never used the word much because we just lived it. We grew up in a time when we knew the world was complicated and our biggest fear was a nuclear war. Other than that, we have been positive. We honored our Flag, tried to live Reasonable, Rational and Responsible lives, and treated our neighbor they way we wanted to be treated. Our biggest fault was we figured our Constitutional Republic would outlast us - it was bigger than us. Part of this biggest fault was we never thought it would be under a credible attack from within. There were always America haters, but not to the level we see today.
For the new generation, I am seeing a lot people constantly calling attention to themselves as a "Patriot". A lot of these people now have a narrow definition as to what a traditional American is. Many times these new "Patriots" have their roots in the Libertarian movement of the 1960's. Many don't even know the history of that group. How many know that Libertarians were spitting on returning US Military members from Vietnam? They were doing this along side an allied group, the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society or Weathermen). I possess a strong dose of skepticism when someone keeps holding up a sign which says: Patriot - Look at Me.
As I type this, I am looking at a copy of the Bill of Rights I have framed hanging on the wall. You can call me whatever you want, but the Constitution is what I keep close to heart. I don't need a label.
Thanks for the reply!
I love my country. I just find myself very distrustful of the government.
Knowing what you know now at 59 do you trust your government enough to still answer the call to serve without hesitation or questioning what you're risking your life for? I get that a lot guys that serve in combat are fighting for the guys they're with...but that's not the same as fighting for your nation.
Our founding principles are the same, and the idea that we should no longer be willing to fight for this country because it's not what it was in the past is a dangerous thought. The truth is, the country started changing almost immediately after its founding. Not even a generation had gone by when the first attempts to circumvent the Bill of Rights were coming out...and some were even passing and being upheld. The country has been corrupt for a long time. Power corrupts. The greatness of the Founding Fathers was not that they believed they could create a utopia, it was that they knew they couldn't. They knew man's greed and evil, and so they set up a system that would suppress it the best it could, and would give the people recourse when their rights were violated. It's not perfect and it doesn't always work, but the principles are the same. The country is still worth fighting for.
I agree! What that fight looks like and who our enemies are has changed considerably.
MountainRaven
06-23-19, 14:23
"The modern patriotism, the true patriotism, the only rational patriotism is loyalty to the Nation all the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it."
-Mark Twain, The Czar's Soliloquy
Lots of good thoughts being expressed in this thread.
Thanks for the reply!
I love my country. I just find myself very distrustful of the government.
Knowing what you know now at 59 do you trust your government enough to still answer the call to serve without hesitation or questioning what you're risking your life for? I get that a lot guys that serve in combat are fighting for the guys they're with...but that's not the same as fighting for your nation.
I can tell you right now that at my age, if my Country asked me to return to active duty, I'd do it in a second - no second guessing. I spent 22 years in uniform and was within a month or so of promotion to Lieutenant Colonel when my dad died, and I left the Army to take over the family business. It was a hard thing to do. You have to understand that within the armed forces of the United States, your fellow soldiers become like extended family, brothers and sisters. You live the shitty experiences together, you enjoy the good times together. You may question the mission or the reason in the back of your mind, but the job of the military is to kill the enemies of the United States - it's that simple. Been there, done it without hesitation. As a soldier, sailor or airman, you don't get to pick and choose anything - you do the job. And no matter the job, wearing that American Flag on the upper right sleeve makes you feel proud.
Too many times the younger generation tries to rationalize what is acceptable for military action. It's almost like an entire generation of quasi conscientious objectors has been hatched out. They take "high road" and overthink what is acceptable or not for the use of the military, but mask their disdain for that part of our government by wearing the cloak of "Patriot". Too many I have run into are borderline Anarchist Leftists with Libertarian isolationist ideals who own guns, but also show a bit of racism too. Some fit into the category of the Alt-Right. I am finding that there is very little that separates the extreme far Left Antifa type and the far radical Alt-Right type of person. Only a fine line separates the two.
So what is a Patriot? Who knows. I spent time yesterday with a 72 year old mountain man who lives in the Sangre de Cristo range of the Rockies which extend into New Mexico. He was born on Long Island, New York, served two tours in Vietnam in the late 1960's, got a Masters in Cultural Anthropology, taught a while then just tuned out the rest of the world except for his wife and kids. He lives on 40 acres in the mountains with the Mrs. as a mountain man. He makes his own buckskin clothing, has a .54 caliber Hawken and a bolt action .303. He grows his own food and kills what he needs for food and clothing. He has no electric power or modern conveniences. He hates all politicians and politics and just wants to be left alone. Is he a Patriot? Hell, why not. He is loyal to his little piece of dirt on this earth and takes nothing from anyone else for his existence. I'd rather hang with a guy like that, than some mouthy kids who constantly want to be noticed as "Patriots". Just my 2 cents.
Diamondback
06-23-19, 19:14
I dunno what I am any more... I guess just a grumpy middle-aged Old Fart In Training who's pissed off at how many of first my parents' generation, then more of my own and an even more alarming incidence of those following seem hellbent on at best squandering if not outright destroying the great gift the Founders gave us and the Greatest Generation sacrificed so much to preserve for us.
https://i.imgflip.com/32p6jv.jpg
Am I too young for this?
I can tell you right now that at my age, if my Country asked me to return to active duty, I'd do it in a second - no second guessing. I spent 22 years in uniform and was within a month or so of promotion to Lieutenant Colonel when my dad died, and I left the Army to take over the family business. It was a hard thing to do. You have to understand that within the armed forces of the United States, your fellow soldiers become like extended family, brothers and sisters. You live the shitty experiences together, you enjoy the good times together. You may question the mission or the reason in the back of your mind, but the job of the military is to kill the enemies of the United States - it's that simple. Been there, done it without hesitation. As a soldier, sailor or airman, you don't get to pick and choose anything - you do the job. And no matter the job, wearing that American Flag on the upper right sleeve makes you feel proud.
Too many times the younger generation tries to rationalize what is acceptable for military action. It's almost like an entire generation of quasi conscientious objectors has been hatched out. They take "high road" and overthink what is acceptable or not for the use of the military, but mask their disdain for that part of our government by wearing the cloak of "Patriot". Too many I have run into are borderline Anarchist Leftists with Libertarian isolationist ideals who own guns, but also show a bit of racism too. Some fit into the category of the Alt-Right. I am finding that there is very little that separates the extreme far Left Antifa type and the far radical Alt-Right type of person. Only a fine line separates the two.
So what is a Patriot? Who knows. I spent time yesterday with a 72 year old mountain man who lives in the Sangre de Cristo range of the Rockies which extend into New Mexico. He was born on Long Island, New York, served two tours in Vietnam in the late 1960's, got a Masters in Cultural Anthropology, taught a while then just tuned out the rest of the world except for his wife and kids. He lives on 40 acres in the mountains with the Mrs. as a mountain man. He makes his own buckskin clothing, has a .54 caliber Hawken and a bolt action .303. He grows his own food and kills what he needs for food and clothing. He has no electric power or modern conveniences. He hates all politicians and politics and just wants to be left alone. Is he a Patriot? Hell, why not. He is loyal to his little piece of dirt on this earth and takes nothing from anyone else for his existence. I'd rather hang with a guy like that, than some mouthy kids who constantly want to be noticed as "Patriots". Just my 2 cents.
Thank you again for the reply. And thank you for your service to our country! I'm right behind you in age (50) and served in the SEABEES. Lately what I see in the news media makes me feel like the mountain man. I do love my country though and I would fight for it. Things like Bengazi, 4 years of investigating collusion, etc. make me not trust the government.
Thank you again for the reply. And thank you for your service to our country! I'm right behind you in age (50) and served in the SEABEES. Lately what I see in the news media makes me feel like the mountain man. I do love my country though and I would fight for it. Things like Bengazi, 4 years of investigating collusion, etc. make me not trust the government.
The key is to understand that the United States is not all bad - don't become jaded and too cynical. You've always had good and bad in the US Government going all the way back to the beginning. The founding government created here is wonderful, and it's only people who corrupt things, either for greed or destructive intent. Case in point was Obama. He kept blathering about the fundamental transformation of the United States. You don't fundamentally transform something you love. Instead you fix it, repair what has been damaged, but keep it going.
Don't get too hung up on labels like "Patriot". For me I'm just an ordinary guy who benefited from a system of government which was handed to me from others who also benefited from it. We need to protect it, nurture it and keep it going. We have so many more freedoms here that even our Western Allies cannot enjoy. It's worth fighting for. Too many of these young studs and stud-ettes have no perspective on things, never been anywhere, but constantly rag out on the United States. I've seen other parts of the World and believe me, this is the best deal going.
Diamondback
06-23-19, 19:34
We need to protect it, nurture it and keep it going. We have so many more freedoms here that even our Western Allies cannot enjoy. It's worth fighting for. Too many of these young studs and stud-ettes have no perspective on things, never been anywhere, but constantly rag out on the United States. I've seen other parts of the World and believe me, this is the best deal going.
Truth, brother. Every day I hear things from friends as close as just across the 49th Parallel that would be goobermint-run-amok Torches & Pitchforks time here, yet they're just Business As Usual there.
The key is to understand that the United States is not all bad - don't become jaded and too cynical. You've always had good and bad in the US Government going all the way back to the beginning. The founding government created here is wonderful, and it's only people who corrupt things, either for greed or destructive intent. Case in point was Obama. He kept blathering about the fundamental transformation of the United States. You don't fundamentally transform something you love. Instead you fix it, repair what has been damaged, but keep it going.
Don't get too hung up on labels like "Patriot". For me I'm just an ordinary guy who benefited from a system of government which was handed to me from others who also benefited from it. We need to protect it, nurture it and keep it going. We have so many more freedoms here that even our Western Allies cannot enjoy. It's worth fighting for. Too many of these young studs and stud-ettes have no perspective on things, never been anywhere, but constantly rag out on the United States. I've seen other parts of the World and believe me, this is the best deal going.
I have never thought my country was bad. Just the direction that many want to take it.
Do you ever get a chance to fly anymore?
"The modern patriotism, the true patriotism, the only rational patriotism is loyalty to the Nation all the time, loyalty to the Government when it deserves it."
-Mark Twain, The Czar's Soliloquy
*like*
Thanks for the reply!
I love my country. I just find myself very distrustful of the government.
Knowing what you know now at 59 do you trust your government enough to still answer the call to serve without hesitation or questioning what you're risking your life for? I get that a lot guys that serve in combat are fighting for the guys they're with...but that's not the same as fighting for your nation.
I would die protecting my nation. I would not for the likes of Pelosi, Clinton, Shumer or even Obama.
I was proud to join during Reagan. I served 26 years. Trust me when I say there's a big difference between service under Reagan and Clinton or Bush and Obama.
No, I do not trust my government regardless of the party in power. Ike was right.
I have never though my country was bad. Just the direction that many want to take it.
Do you ever get a chance to fly anymore?
Nope, the only "flying" I do in my daily work is from the hurricane deck of a fast Texas Cayuse. However, any of the air frames I flew would not be a problem for me other than learning some of the new avionics. I considered myself a damn good pilot and so did my peers. We had to be to do some of the operations we were involved with. Many times, I was an aerial taxi driver, flying special operations personnel into and out of various locations, preferably not under fire at the time.
And since I retired, I have never put on the uniform for Veterans events and such. Not that I'm ashamed of it, I just don't like to call attention to it like that. Talking about it on forums like this is about the extent of it. No Veterans license plate. I do support ROTC units with my time and I give lectures several times a year, in addition to annual member meetings with my former units. And now having a son in the US Army at West Point gives me a sense of pride, but the concern in the back of your mind only a parent would have. I should note that my eldest son (40 years old) is a US Navy Veteran, serving enlisted as an AE on the USS George Washington (CVN 73). He did 10 years in the Navy, graduating from Great Lakes in 1996, while I was still in the Army. He is now in business, but married to an Air Force Major stationed at Travis Air Force Base, CA. She is a pilot flying the C-17 Globemaster III. That marriage has given me 4 grandkids!!!! I still have a teenage daughter at home, still in High School. So just two sons and a daughter for my marriage, same wife of 41 years!!!.
Nope, the only "flying" I do in my daily work is from the hurricane deck of a fast Texas Cayuse. However, any of the air frames I flew would not be a problem for me other than learning some of the new avionics. I considered myself a damn good pilot and so did my peers. We had to be to do some of the operations we were involved with. Many times, I was an aerial taxi driver, flying special operations personnel into and out of various locations, preferably not under fire at the time.
And since I retired, I have never put on the uniform for Veterans events and such. Not that I'm ashamed of it, I just don't like to call attention to it like that. Talking about it on forums like this is about the extent of it. No Veterans license plate. I do support ROTC units with my time and I give lectures several times a year, in addition to annual member meetings with my former units. And now having a son in the US Army at West Point gives me a sense of pride, but the concern in the back of your mind only a parent would have. I should note that my eldest son (40 years old) is a US Navy Veteran, serving enlisted as an AE on the USS George Washington (CVN 73). He did 10 years in the Navy, graduating from Great Lakes in 1996, while I was still in the Army. He is now in business, but married to an Air Force Major stationed at Travis Air Force Base, CA. She is a pilot flying the C-17 Globemaster III. That marriage has given me 4 grandkids!!!! I still have a teenage daughter at home, still in High School. So just two sons and a daughter for my marriage, same wife of 41 years!!!.
Outstanding!
Nightvisionary
06-24-19, 09:23
I can tell you right now that at my age, if my Country asked me to return to active duty, I'd do it in a second - no second guessing. I spent 22 years in uniform and was within a month or so of promotion to Lieutenant Colonel when my dad died, and I left the Army to take over the family business. It was a hard thing to do. You have to understand that within the armed forces of the United States, your fellow soldiers become like extended family, brothers and sisters. You live the shitty experiences together, you enjoy the good times together. You may question the mission or the reason in the back of your mind, but the job of the military is to kill the enemies of the United States - it's that simple. Been there, done it without hesitation. As a soldier, sailor or airman, you don't get to pick and choose anything - you do the job. And no matter the job, wearing that American Flag on the upper right sleeve makes you feel proud.
Too many times the younger generation tries to rationalize what is acceptable for military action. It's almost like an entire generation of quasi conscientious objectors has been hatched out. They take "high road" and overthink what is acceptable or not for the use of the military, but mask their disdain for that part of our government by wearing the cloak of "Patriot". Too many I have run into are borderline Anarchist Leftists with Libertarian isolationist ideals who own guns, but also show a bit of racism too. Some fit into the category of the Alt-Right. I am finding that there is very little that separates the extreme far Left Antifa type and the far radical Alt-Right type of person. Only a fine line separates the two.
So what is a Patriot? Who knows. I spent time yesterday with a 72 year old mountain man who lives in the Sangre de Cristo range of the Rockies which extend into New Mexico. He was born on Long Island, New York, served two tours in Vietnam in the late 1960's, got a Masters in Cultural Anthropology, taught a while then just tuned out the rest of the world except for his wife and kids. He lives on 40 acres in the mountains with the Mrs. as a mountain man. He makes his own buckskin clothing, has a .54 caliber Hawken and a bolt action .303. He grows his own food and kills what he needs for food and clothing. He has no electric power or modern conveniences. He hates all politicians and politics and just wants to be left alone. Is he a Patriot? Hell, why not. He is loyal to his little piece of dirt on this earth and takes nothing from anyone else for his existence. I'd rather hang with a guy like that, than some mouthy kids who constantly want to be noticed as "Patriots". Just my 2 cents.
I have entertained living such a lifestyle but people like that could easily fit right into Martin Niemoller's paradigm,ie "First they came" so I would not consider that patriotism because he cares little for the condition of his fellow man.
Nightvisionary
06-24-19, 09:28
Truth, brother. Every day I hear things from friends as close as just across the 49th Parallel that would be goobermint-run-amok Torches & Pitchforks time here, yet they're just Business As Usual there.
Oh don't worry American inaction and apathy is at a full sprint to catch up with theirs. In 10 years you won't remember the difference.
Doc Safari
06-24-19, 10:06
People move the goalposts too much for me to say what I am and am not anymore.
Just don’t be all up in my face asking me to give up anything for other people
I have to agree with you. Do I really want to fight and die for a bunch of libtards wanting to take my money and give it to the illegal migrants?
Not that I wouldn't grab my M4 and do my part to repel the Red Dawn scenario, but if it's a choice between defending California versus Texas, guess where I'm headed?
I have entertained living such a lifestyle but people like that could easily fit right into Martin Niemoller's paradigm,ie "First they came" so I would not consider that patriotism because he cares little for the condition of his fellow man.
You make a good point, but keep in mind the United States was set up on the concept of Individual Rights and Freedoms, not the Rights and Freedoms of a Collective. Can a person who doesn't interfere with the rights of another, nor do they interact much with the rest of society be considered a Patriot? Can you be a Patriot of One? Unlike other western societies, the United States does allow for the individual, but not getting into the sovereign citizen debate. It certainly affords the individual the right of free speech (at least in past years). The same for freedom of religion and other freedoms which don't involve a collective group.
Case in point was a rancher here in New Mexico who started flying his American Flag upside down after Obama was elected. He claimed America was in distress and flew it that way thru most of the Obama Presidency. This rancher died about a year before Obama left office. This was one Man making his own statement. Was he a Patriot?
The key is to understand that the United States is not all bad - don't become jaded and too cynical. You've always had good and bad in the US Government going all the way back to the beginning. The founding government created here is wonderful, and it's only people who corrupt things, either for greed or destructive intent. Case in point was Obama. He kept blathering about the fundamental transformation of the United States. You don't fundamentally transform something you love. Instead you fix it, repair what has been damaged, but keep it going.
Don't get too hung up on labels like "Patriot". For me I'm just an ordinary guy who benefited from a system of government which was handed to me from others who also benefited from it. We need to protect it, nurture it and keep it going. We have so many more freedoms here that even our Western Allies cannot enjoy. It's worth fighting for. Too many of these young studs and stud-ettes have no perspective on things, never been anywhere, but constantly rag out on the United States. I've seen other parts of the World and believe me, this is the best deal going.
As someone who's still in the system, I'm incredibly skeptical of the government we have. I have almost no trust whatsoever in "senior leadership". I see through the BS and I'm always on the lookout for underlying motives.
But I still come to work every day and try to give good results for my community and our people. I want people to know that despite how fouled up our system of government becomes, there are still good people on the inside trying to work for them. Not everything is broken beyond repair.
Our founding principles are the same, and the idea that we should no longer be willing to fight for this country because it's not what it was in the past is a dangerous thought. The truth is, the country started changing almost immediately after its founding. Not even a generation had gone by when the first attempts to circumvent the Bill of Rights were coming out...and some were even passing and being upheld. The country has been corrupt for a long time. Power corrupts. The greatness of the Founding Fathers was not that they believed they could create a utopia, it was that they knew they couldn't. They knew man's greed and evil, and so they set up a system that would suppress it the best it could, and would give the people recourse when their rights were violated. It's not perfect and it doesn't always work, but the principles are the same. The country is still worth fighting for.
I don't think many of the founders intended to follow their own "rules" since none of them featured a punishment for violations. While they may have faced the death penalty if the revolution failed, not many of them were in active fighting and they had a better chance of escape than did some peon at the front.
Nightvisionary
06-25-19, 08:58
I don't think many of the founders intended to follow their own "rules" since none of them featured a punishment for violations. While they may have faced the death penalty if the revolution failed, not many of them were in active fighting and they had a better chance of escape than did some peon at the front.
The British empire would have found them and executed them in a much less humane manner than they did the 15 leaders of the 1916 Irish Easter Rebellion.
The British empire would have found them and executed them in a much less humane manner than they did the 15 leaders of the 1916 Irish Easter Rebellion.
I am sure they would have tried, just the peons actively fighting would have faced a more certain fate.
And I still think the bulk of the founders were motivated more by wanting to attain power not available to them due to hitting the glass ceiling of Britain than they were individual liberties for the white trash beneath them.
BoringGuy45
06-25-19, 12:01
I am sure they would have tried, just the peons actively fighting would have faced a more certain fate.
And I still think the bulk of the founders were motivated more by wanting to attain power not available to them due to hitting the glass ceiling of Britain than they were individual liberties for the white trash beneath them.
There would be no Bill of Rights if the bulk of them were like that. Among the many people who founded the country, there were of course those who were power hungry and jostled for position to become king of the United States. But the number of true believers in the new nation by, of, and for the people was large enough to put into place a legally binding bill. Again, nothing is perfect, and I think from the beginning, some of the founders immediately regretted making it the Bill of Rights as opposed to Privileges. And to this day, we have judges who basically rule that most of our "rights" are just guidelines and suggestions rather than legally binding obligations the government must follow. But I think the majority of the founders knew that would happen immediately if they didn't do something up front, and most didn't want to remain in office for life.
I spent time yesterday with a 72 year old mountain man who lives in the Sangre de Cristo range of the Rockies which extend into New Mexico. He was born on Long Island, New York, served two tours in Vietnam in the late 1960's, got a Masters in Cultural Anthropology, taught a while then just tuned out the rest of the world except for his wife and kids. He lives on 40 acres in the mountains with the Mrs. as a mountain man. He makes his own buckskin clothing, has a .54 caliber Hawken and a bolt action .303. He grows his own food and kills what he needs for food and clothing. He has no electric power or modern conveniences. He hates all politicians and politics and just wants to be left alone. Is he a Patriot? Hell, why not. He is loyal to his little piece of dirt on this earth and takes nothing from anyone else for his existence. I'd rather hang with a guy like that, than some mouthy kids who constantly want to be noticed as "Patriots". Just my 2 cents.
While if that's the life the guy wants, fine. Seems a bit lonely to me, but different strokes and all. I have trouble saying that kind of lifestyle is one of a "patriot" however. And I can't say that a guy like this who offers nothing to, and accepts nothing from, his community, is the type of man that American conservatives need to idealize. I think we seize so much on the idea of individual freedom, that we don't want to even fight for it, because doing so would mean bothering someone else. The thing is, the motto of the United States has never been "Everybody just leave everyone else the f**k alone". We are SUPPOSED to be a community; we're supposed to fight for our country and community and have each other's backs. I don't think the Founding Fathers envisioned a nearly anarchic nation of solitary hermits who only interacted with other humans in order to trade goods and be on their way. Yeah, if some people want to do that, fine. But that's supposed to be the gold standard of what an American is, as far as I can tell.
I think the right has largely turned into "Other than the 2nd Amendment, f*** the U.S., I'm looking out for me and mine!" And we're dead if keep that attitude.
There would be no Bill of Rights if the bulk of them were like that. Among the many people who founded the country, there were of course those who were power hungry and jostled for position to become king of the United States. But the number of true believers in the new nation by, of, and for the people was large enough to put into place a legally binding bill. Again, nothing is perfect, and I think from the beginning, some of the founders immediately regretted making it the Bill of Rights as opposed to Privileges. And to this day, we have judges who basically rule that most of our "rights" are just guidelines and suggestions rather than legally binding obligations the government must follow. But I think the majority of the founders knew that would happen immediately if they didn't do something up front, and most didn't want to remain in office for life.
The Bill of Rights was from the labors of the anti-federalists who were the minority, not the bulk. The ruling federalists apparently didn't mind putting it in since they had no intentions of adhering to any of it anyway.
While if that's the life the guy wants, fine. Seems a bit lonely to me, but different strokes and all. I have trouble saying that kind of lifestyle is one of a "patriot" however.
And I can't say that a guy like this who offers nothing to, and accepts nothing from, his community, is the type of man that American conservatives need to idealize. I think we seize so much on the idea of individual freedom, that we don't want to even fight for it, because doing so would mean bothering someone else.
The thing is, the motto of the United States has never been "Everybody just leave everyone else the f**k alone". We are SUPPOSED to be a community; we're supposed to fight for our country and community and have each other's backs. I don't think the Founding Fathers envisioned a nearly anarchic nation of solitary hermits who only interacted with other humans in order to trade goods and be on their way. Yeah, if some people want to do that, fine. But that's supposed to be the gold standard of what an American is, as far as I can tell.
I think the right has largely turned into "Other than the 2nd Amendment, f*** the U.S., I'm looking out for me and mine!" And we're dead if keep that attitude.
Bravo Zulu.
I will gladly take "Everybody just leave everyone else the f**k alone" over statists and hand wringers whims getting ascended to law.
I don't think the concept of patriotism is dead. I think it has evolved.
When I was a youth, if a person dodged the draft, compared his sex life to combat, disrespected POWs, and mocked the families of army officers killed in combat, he would not be considered a patriot.
It's different now.
BoringGuy45
06-25-19, 18:48
I will gladly take "Everybody just leave everyone else the f**k alone" over statists and hand wringers whims getting ascended to law.
How about everyone work together to preserve freedom? Neither statism or anarchy is a good choice. Everyone wants to be free, but nobody wants to lift a finger to defend it unless it specifically involves themselves.
How about everyone work together to preserve freedom? Neither statism or anarchy is a good choice. Everyone wants to be free, but nobody wants to lift a finger to defend it unless it specifically involves themselves.
It seems that Patriotism requires a group effort - a community of like minded folks? It reminds me of the definition of a Church - a body of like minded believers, not a physical building. However, like the Mountain Man and his wife I interacted with, I still tend to think you can be a Patriot without anyone else around because why should your Patriotism need to be validated by another person? Do you have to find God in a Church, or can you find God on horseback in the middle of nowhere?
How about everyone work together to preserve freedom? Neither statism or anarchy is a good choice. Everyone wants to be free, but nobody wants to lift a finger to defend it unless it specifically involves themselves.
I didn't say statists and hand wringers shouldn't get driven in to the ground when they are unable to control their urges. That goes hand in hand with opposing legal exemptions.
It seems that Patriotism requires a group effort - a community of like minded folks? It reminds me of the definition of a Church - a body of like minded believers, not a physical building.
However, like the Mountain Man and his wife I interacted with, I still tend to think you can be a Patriot without anyone else around because why should your Patriotism need to be validated by another person?
In a group of like minded people there lies strength. We lean on one another when we are weary - mentally or physically - we take courage and heart from the presence and examples of others.
"I've" helped build houses, wells in far off places, a homeless shelter, and helped feed thousands of people through the work of both my hands and my money. That is the power of unity. I left my old Church for the one I attend now because I did not see Faith being put into action.
So I kind of equate Patriotism and Faith.
Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. Is just as valid if you substitute 'Patriotism' for faith.
In terms of Patriotism and Faith, I'm more of a St Francis of Assisi guy. He said “Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.”
So, I'm going to say that you can't be a true Patriot without works, it is dependent on how you define works. If said Mountain Man is concerned about the welfare of the United States and does something like pray each night for the preservation of our Union, then, yeah, he is a Patriot. If he decided to check out with nary a backwards glance, then, no, he's not.
Just my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it.
ETA: You need to be in a Church (united with a body of believers) because God wants us to come together as a family of believers. "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
The U.S. used to be a melting pot. These days our fire has died down because no one seems to be tending it. About the only thing our pot is melting now, is snowflakes. :(
...Do you have to find God in a Church, or can you find God on horseback in the middle of nowhere?
I think one can find God in many places on this Earth and that a building with a cross or a bunch of other people looking is the least likely place. Horseback in the middle of nowhere, sitting on a surfboard between swells, in the middle of nowhere under the stars, standing at the summit of a mountain watching the sun rise from below the clouds on the horizon....pick your spot, you'll know when your touched by the hand of divine presence.
I think one can find God in many places on this Earth and that a building with a cross or a bunch of other people looking is the least likely place. Horseback in the middle of nowhere, sitting on a surfboard between swells, in the middle of nowhere under the stars, standing at the summit of a mountain watching the sun rise from below the clouds on the horizon....pick your spot, you'll know when your touched by the hand of divine presence.
I agree, You can find God anywhere in Nature. Not sure I agree with your assessment about Churches, but, then again Churches are not for Saints, they are for sinners to come closer to God.
Without going into details, I found God just about sunset by a pond, He let me know eavery thing would be okay, and it was, just not the way I wanted. Finding God is easy, it is following that is hard. For me, anyways.
The U.S. used to be a melting pot. These days our fire has died down because no one seems to be tending it. About the only thing our pot is melting now, is snowflakes. :(
The USA was never a melting pot.
Black citizens lived in terror of the Klan and the Sheriff, which were sometimes the same thing. They got the short end of every stick. They had slavery until 1865, apartheid until 1965, discrimination until . . . ??
During the great waves of European white immigration, you saw "Irish need not apply" and all white subgroups fought among each other: Italians, Irish, East Europe, you name it.
Etc.
Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned God and Church, which tends to create thread creep. I have a strong belief in a supreme being and I believe I am alive today because of that faith. However, organized religion including Churches have become too much like a business, with a focal point of money. Sometimes I have to get away from it and just seek God in my own quiet place, and I have a lot of quiet places to chose from. There are various levels of faith and religious participation, and I have a problem with a one sized fits all relationship with God. Every religion pre-packages God and yells: "We have the True God here".
Politics has also become too much of a business, with too much big money. Our political leaders have a major disconnect between the average citizen. I find a lot of it distasteful, and it's getting harder to even tune into politics on the radio or TV. Labels are backwards these days with Anti-Fascists the actual fascists. Democrats are not even close to being democratic in their agenda. And the word Patriot gets used too much, by too many different people. Hardcore Alt-Right radicals claim the mantle of Patriot, as do some of the neo-Nazi types. I'm not even sure anyone really knows what the title of Patriot means. For me, I don't use it because I call myself and old-fashioned Conservative. I believe in the original intent of the Constitution and am a small government, low taxes, socially Conservative person. Just like the word Hero (which I don't like), I don't use the word Patriot. If you use such words too much, it seems to lessen their value.
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