View Full Version : Got the rifle...... now looking scope
mpalmr8999
07-02-19, 12:36
So after months and months of research I finally purchased a rifle. It is a Savage 110Tactical in 308. 20 inch barrel.
So my range only goes out to 400 yards. I am looking for a scope that can shoot this distance with ease.
It must be newb friendly, since I have only used red dots before and around the 1K mark.
What would you guys recommend??
How do you plan to use the rifle--what types of shooting (informal range shooting, competitions, hunting mid-size game or long-range varmints, etc), and would you want to shoot potentially at ranges beyond your 400 yard range?
Other relevant goals you have with this rifle, for example are you trying to keep the total weight down?
IKnowNotEverything
07-02-19, 13:01
https://www.eurooptic.com/Burris-Xtreme-Tactical-XTRII-3-15x-50mm-SCR-Mil-Showroom-Demo-Scope-201034.aspx
https://www.eurooptic.com/Burris-XTRII-Riflescope-5X-25X-50mm-Illum-SCR-Mil-Front-Focal-reticle-FDE-finish.aspx
Burris XTR II has been my go-to recommendation around the $1,000 mark.
I completely misread your budget as yardage somehow.
Eurodriver
07-02-19, 13:53
What happens when you realize that you can enter a PRS match and you have targets out to 1350 but you got a garbage SWFA or Poortex and have to use their “great warranty!” when it slides down a roof stage and dents the turret housing? If Poortex’s torque values are any indicator, their weight penalty is certainly not due to the tube’s strength.
Buy cheap, get cheap. I recommend an ATACR, but if you don’t wanna drop $3k Look into a Nightforce SHV F1 (MOA or Mil/Mil) They are $1,050 for a Demo model at Euro optics.
FWIW, I own two of them (one was a demo) and have quite literally beaten the hell out of it and it’s still rocking and rolling. I’ve also shot to 1,000 with a .223. It will last you a long time and you won’t have to use the “great warranty!” that internet gun misers espouse so much.
Buy once cry once. We used to say, spend as much money on your scope as your gun. Now that guns are so cheap, I'd have to say spend more on your scope. I like Euro's recommends. I buy mostly NFscopes. If you cant swing that, get a Vortex and spend as much as you can possibly stomach. I sale guns often, I almost never sale my glass.
You should look for used scopes on the EE or on the Snipershide EE for good used stuff.
Most people buys guns and look at them, so wear and tear is often minimal.
PB
Eurodriver
07-02-19, 15:08
Buy once cry once. We used to say, spend as much money on your scope as your gun. Now that guns are so cheap, I'd have to say spend more on your scope. I like Euro's recommends. I buy mostly NFscopes. If you cant swing that, get a Vortex and spend as much as you can possibly stomach. I sale guns often, I almost never sale my glass.
You should look for used scopes on the EE or on the Snipershide EE for good used stuff.
Most people buys guns and look at them, so wear and tear is often minimal.
PB
A lot of good advice here. Someone was selling an ATACR for like $1800 a few weeks ago on SH. Lots of really good deals used. Plus with a known brand like NF they will take care of you if it’s messed up.
Buy once cry once. We used to say, spend as much money on your scope as your gun. Now that guns are so cheap, I'd have to say spend more on your scope.
PB
+1, makes sense as a rule of thumb to spend more on glass than rifles at this point unless buying high $$$ custom.
I would still like to hear OP talk about his usage before recommending glass. NF is awesome, obviously, but there's other glass out there too.
VortexOptics
07-03-19, 09:07
What happens when you realize that you can enter a PRS match and you have targets out to 1350 but you got a garbage SWFA or Poortex and have to use their “great warranty!” when it slides down a roof stage and dents the turret housing? If Poortex’s torque values are any indicator, their weight penalty is certainly not due to the tube’s strength.
Buy cheap, get cheap. I recommend an ATACR, but if you don’t wanna drop $3k Look into a Nightforce SHV F1 (MOA or Mil/Mil) They are $1,050 for a Demo model at Euro optics.
FWIW, I own two of them (one was a demo) and have quite literally beaten the hell out of it and it’s still rocking and rolling. I’ve also shot to 1,000 with a .223. It will last you a long time and you won’t have to use the “great warranty!” that internet gun misers espouse so much.
That escalated quickly! And we learned a new nickname. Well done - can't be mad at that creativity.
NF makes a damn good product and to say otherwise would be tremendously idiotic. Lots of folks use our optics for casual shooting all the way up to the highest level of PRS competition, too. Warranty return rates are still less than 1% and if issues arise, whether it was the shooter's fault or not, we feel it's right to take care of them with great service. Guilty as charged. But we're not the only ones - there are lots of great people in this industry and very helpful folks at other companies if/when their customers have issues, too, as you've pointed out. Clearly you have your preference, it works wonders for you and we're not going to change that, nor do we want to, but the stigma floating around out there that a great warranty and excellent service is a bad thing just creates confusion. If you have a brand preference, just say it. Chances are that brand also has great service and that's part of the reason you like them, too.
OP - If you happen to be looking at any Vortex products at all and have any questions, hit us up and we're happy to help. For a 1K budget and something that can shoot out to 400 accurately and reliably, a PST Gen II 3-15x44 is a solid choice in our line. Comes in FFP or SFP and MOA or MRAD and is part of our most popular line of scopes (The 5-25x50 PST Gen II is technically the most popular within that line, but you don't need 5-25x to shoot to 400 or honestly even 1000 if that time comes and you can save yourself some money, get a bigger FOV, better optics and get more internal travel with the 3-15x)
- Jimmy H
Eurodriver
07-03-19, 11:53
That escalated quickly! And we learned a new nickname. Well done - can't be mad at that creativity.
NF makes a damn good product and to say otherwise would be tremendously idiotic. Lots of folks use our optics for casual shooting all the way up to the highest level of PRS competition, too. Warranty return rates are still less than 1% and if issues arise, whether it was the shooter's fault or not, we feel it's right to take care of them with great service. Guilty as charged. But we're not the only ones - there are lots of great people in this industry and very helpful folks at other companies if/when their customers have issues, too, as you've pointed out. Clearly you have your preference, it works wonders for you and we're not going to change that, nor do we want to, but the stigma floating around out there that a great warranty and excellent service is a bad thing just creates confusion. If you have a brand preference, just say it. Chances are that brand also has great service and that's part of the reason you like them, too.
OP - If you happen to be looking at any Vortex products at all and have any questions, hit us up and we're happy to help. For a 1K budget and something that can shoot out to 400 accurately and reliably, a PST Gen II 3-15x44 is a solid choice in our line. Comes in FFP or SFP and MOA or MRAD and is part of our most popular line of scopes (The 5-25x50 PST Gen II is technically the most popular within that line, but you don't need 5-25x to shoot to 400 or honestly even 1000 if that time comes and you can save yourself some money, get a bigger FOV, better optics and get more internal travel with the 3-15x)
- Jimmy H
Woo. Fun stuff. Thanks for chiming in Jimmy. Let me explain my reasoning for my comments and the nickname.
Before I begin, I actually don’t have a problem with Vortex, but I do with “vortex people”. Don’t worry. I’ll get to that.
I have bought no fewer than 6 Vortex optics. I have your sick ass Kaibab Binos and a LRF. Plus Gen I PSTs scopes save for a recent Gen2 1-6 (which I literally bought in April [a noteworthy date], I can provide the receipts if there are doubts) My buddies all have the Razors, and several members here I have met in person have those optics as well and use without issues. We shoot PRS and 2 gun. The binos work great. So does the LRF. I also do a lot of what I used to consider mild abuse (NV shooting in thick brush/swamps, throwing guns around in the back of side by sides, leaving them outside during rainstorms), but after meeting more and more shooters has shown me is certainly not the norm for “mild”.
The first two scopes I bought (PST Gen I) had to go back due to turret issues before I even shot them. They were bought from Liberty Optics. I could not turn the windage turret at all. Colleen handled my issues very nicely, but your warranty didn’t cover the $65 (each) in packing materials and insurance to ship my scope back. This was Feb 20, 2015 if you’d like to look at your records. Poortex originated in those days. Because I was poor after sending them back.
I should have had a bad taste in my mouth, but the replacements worked fine and for the price point did what I wanted....for a while. I noticed wandering zero’s especially after drops. This never happened with nightforce scopes (admittedly, the only other quality brand scope I’ve used). One such instance occurred when I finished a tank trap stage, didn’t remember the bag was clipped to my belt and the rifle did a summersault and landed scope first on the concrete. The scope just never acted right after that. Again, PST Gen I. I took a gamble because an SME on M4C whom I trust recommended your 1-6 Gen 2 and it hasn’t let me down despite being beaten up (it outlasted my iPhone in Texas) I would still rather have an NXS because I don’t “feel” as confident with your PSTs due to my experiences. Surely, I am not comparing a $600 scope to a $1300 scope but my point from the last post and this is that it’s been my experience that getting the $600 scope isn’t worth it in the first place.
As time went on I got more scopes and ended up bringing a NF equipped scope to a Guardian match which you guys sponsor. It’s a great charity and I think you guys do a good job with that, but many of the people who hosted the match were giving me shit for my NF. I don’t talk gear. In fact, I don’t talk to many gun guys at all. I just like shooting. So to walk in and have match directors talking about how I overpaid for a NF and all the other shooters running around with their Vortex hats (while failing the Vortex challenge #manylols) was a little annoying to listen to (especially while I was spotting through my Kaibabs.)
All of the above leads to this. I’ve also tried to steer guys to *your* optics such as Gen2 PSTs and razors only to have them say bah. That’s too much money. Then they buy your low end stuff and struggle. I think Vortex created this culture because there are $200 Diamondback scopes and $2000 Razors. Guys think they get the same quality from both because of the lifetime warranty. (If it doesn’t work, I’ll just send it back) I can’t blame them. I have the same concerns after shipping back some of yours and losing zeros. Did I want to risk $2k on a heavy Razor when I could spend $2500 on an ATACR and not have the lingering doubts? No. Unfortunately I did not. As I said, my buddies all use Razors and have no issues. But I can’t bring myself to buy one because your lower tier lines let me down. Nightforce doesn’t have that problem because they don’t have lower tiers.
Speaking of quality, I’m still confused why your scopes weigh so freaking much but cannot handle the same level of scope ring torque that a NF does. (NF 1-8 is 17oz. Vortex 1-6 is 24ish.)
I’ve also got complaints about your reticles. Specifically, why can’t I easily find how many MOA are between subtensions on my 1-6? I had to measure it myself. Is that intentional? The manual is showing like 3 units of measure for 6 sub tension lines. What does that even mean? I also had another scope on a hunting 300blk setup. I think it was a diamondback. It had the same issue.
I’d link a pic of the reticle from the manual, and If this isn’t coherent, I apologize. My 4th started early and I’m about 3 Woodford’s in. I also know it’s a bit unfair to come at you publicly with my side of the story without you knowing all the facts. Maybe my gripe isn’t even with Vortex (after all, I continue to buy your stuff and I even wear one of your T Shirts I won at a Guardian match to the gym). Maybe my gripe is just with the people who defend you guys so vehemently.
So after months and months of research I finally purchased a rifle. It is a Savage 110Tactical in 308. 20 inch barrel.
So my range only goes out to 400 yards. I am looking for a scope that can shoot this distance with ease.
It must be newb friendly, since I have only used red dots before and around the 1K mark.
What would you guys recommend??
With your distance at the range where I'm assuming you are going to do most of your shooting, a 4-12 or 4-16 power scope would be plenty. as for which scope itself is best, your best bet is to go to a gun shop with a large inventory of scopes and have a look through a lot of them to see which reticle you enjoy most. But I read this article https://ioutdoorpursuit.com/rifle-scope-definitive-guide/ and took a look at some of the rifle scopes on their list.. if you want first focal plane or second focal plane. I would think the second focal plane would be fine for use and would keep scope cheaper. Nikon, vortex, Burris, Bushnell are all good scope names and carry a good warranty that I have heard of.
VortexOptics
07-03-19, 14:20
Woo. Fun stuff. Thanks for chiming in Jimmy. Let me explain my reasoning for my comments and the nickname.
Before I begin, I actually don’t have a problem with Vortex, but I do with “vortex people”. Don’t worry. I’ll get to that.
I have bought no fewer than 6 Vortex optics. I have your sick ass Kaibab Binos and a LRF. Plus Gen I PSTs scopes save for a recent Gen2 1-6 (which I literally bought in April [a noteworthy date], I can provide the receipts if there are doubts) My buddies all have the Razors, and several members here I have met in person have those optics as well and use without issues. We shoot PRS and 2 gun. The binos work great. So does the LRF. I also do a lot of what I used to consider mild abuse (NV shooting in thick brush/swamps, throwing guns around in the back of side by sides, leaving them outside during rainstorms), but after meeting more and more shooters has shown me is certainly not the norm for “mild”.
The first two scopes I bought (PST Gen I) had to go back due to turret issues before I even shot them. They were bought from Liberty Optics. I could not turn the windage turret at all. Colleen handled my issues very nicely, but your warranty didn’t cover the $65 (each) in packing materials and insurance to ship my scope back. This was Feb 20, 2015 if you’d like to look at your records. Poortex originated in those days. Because I was poor after sending them back.
I should have had a bad taste in my mouth, but the replacements worked fine and for the price point did what I wanted....for a while. I noticed wandering zero’s especially after drops. This never happened with nightforce scopes (admittedly, the only other quality brand scope I’ve used). One such instance occurred when I finished a tank trap stage, didn’t remember the bag was clipped to my belt and the rifle did a summersault and landed scope first on the concrete. The scope just never acted right after that. Again, PST Gen I. I took a gamble because an SME on M4C whom I trust recommended your 1-6 Gen 2 and it hasn’t let me down despite being beaten up (it outlasted my iPhone in Texas) I would still rather have an NXS because I don’t “feel” as confident with your PSTs due to my experiences. Surely, I am not comparing a $600 scope to a $1300 scope but my point from the last post and this is that it’s been my experience that getting the $600 scope isn’t worth it in the first place.
As time went on I got more scopes and ended up bringing a NF equipped scope to a Guardian match which you guys sponsor. It’s a great charity and I think you guys do a good job with that, but many of the people who hosted the match were giving me shit for my NF. I don’t talk gear. In fact, I don’t talk to many gun guys at all. I just like shooting. So to walk in and have match directors talking about how I overpaid for a NF and all the other shooters running around with their Vortex hats (while failing the Vortex challenge #manylols) was a little annoying to listen to (especially while I was spotting through my Kaibabs.)
All of the above leads to this. I’ve also tried to steer guys to *your* optics such as Gen2 PSTs and razors only to have them say bah. That’s too much money. Then they buy your low end stuff and struggle. I think Vortex created this culture because there are $200 Diamondback scopes and $2000 Razors. Guys think they get the same quality from both because of the lifetime warranty. (If it doesn’t work, I’ll just send it back) I can’t blame them. I have the same concerns after shipping back some of yours and losing zeros. Did I want to risk $2k on a heavy Razor when I could spend $2500 on an ATACR and not have the lingering doubts? No. Unfortunately I did not. As I said, my buddies all use Razors and have no issues. But I can’t bring myself to buy one because your lower tier lines let me down. Nightforce doesn’t have that problem because they don’t have lower tiers.
Speaking of quality, I’m still confused why your scopes weigh so freaking much but cannot handle the same level of scope ring torque that a NF does. (NF 1-8 is 17oz. Vortex 1-6 is 24ish.)
I’ve also got complaints about your reticles. Specifically, why can’t I easily find how many MOA are between subtensions on my 1-6? I had to measure it myself. Is that intentional? The manual is showing like 3 units of measure for 6 sub tension lines. What does that even mean? I also had another scope on a hunting 300blk setup. I think it was a diamondback. It had the same issue.
I’d link a pic of the reticle from the manual, and If this isn’t coherent, I apologize. My 4th started early and I’m about 3 Woodford’s in. I also know it’s a bit unfair to come at you publicly with my side of the story without you knowing all the facts. Maybe my gripe isn’t even with Vortex (after all, I continue to buy your stuff and I even wear one of your T Shirts I won at a Guardian match to the gym). Maybe my gripe is just with the people who defend you guys so vehemently.
We understand 100% of what you are saying to a "T". In many cases, yes, the fact that we run the gambit of products from your entry level $150 riflescope all the way up to your top tier $2500 riflescope, and thus, sell to the guy or gal who has literally never touched a gun or scope before in their life to folks who have been shooting since exiting the womb, is somewhat of a blessing and a curse. More people are able to shoot Vortex, we're able to have the resources to put towards the development/testing/equipment for future products and innovation, new great products across the board help the brand stay relevant to a lot of different people (Shooters, hunters, birders, recreational kayaking hippies, etc), blah blah blah... A curse because dudes and gals who are optics snobs scoff at any brand that sells an entry level product also making a high end product and too many people expecting that because we make a high end product that the entry level product is pretty much the same exact thing but magically cheaper. the curse part is more of a side effect - it's not like we try to stoke that fire - it just happens and we go on with business/life just doing what we know best and maybe helping a few people realize they shouldn't attempt the King of 2 Miles ELR challenge with a capped-turret Crossfire II Hog Hunter 3-12x56 AO despite the fact "It's objective lens is huge" along the way.
Like we said - you're not wrong because you shoot NF scopes. They're awesome, you feel most comfortable behind that glass and you've had a great track record with them from the sounds of it. That, in and of itself, is priceless, so for someone to come up and say "Ya PaId TOo MuCH FeR THaT NiGht FoArCE" is silly. It's worth what it's worth to you. Do we think we make a damn good competing product, too, though? Sure. It sounds like the PST experience you had was with the Gen I primarily, which was a fine scope for us and arguably the reason other scopes like the SHV even came into existence, but the Gen II PST is a much better scope all around. Again, not saying that to get you to go and switch your arsenal to PST Gen II's, but just passing along the fact we're always looking to improve.
As for the torque specs on the tubes, not really sure what to tell you there. They don't need to be torqued any tighter. We've been running those specs forever now and none of our scopes are slipping or having any issue with recoil at that rating and it's not putting any stress on the tube. They get torqued tighter than that all the time by people who hate directions and work just fine, but it's more of a crap shoot once you start strangling the thing - sometimes it works, many times it doesn't. Overtorqued rings is one of the biggest problems all scope companies in our industry face. They may list higher specs, but with how many of our optics are used in dangerous places by dangerous people or even just competition getting the crap kicked out of them all over the place, it's hard to say the tubes are problematic (Admittedly, we don't have every scope on the market in house and sliced open to compare, but we've got a pretty good idea of what folks are working with). The weight is certainly there, but weight doesn't automatically equal durability. Glass and, in many cases, simply the material certain components are machined from in order to achieve the tolerances necessary are just heavier. The Razor AMG is a perfect example - There's a lot of glass in that scope, but most of the materials used inside are a lighter weight material than those in the Razor Gen II, because we machine them in house and have developed processes our factories overseas can't mimic to still achieve the proper tolerances in machining with these materials. With those big changes and some tricky engineering, you've got a scope that's 20 ounces lighter than the Gen II Razor and arguably even more strong. It's also $500ish dollars more.
Reticles - Give us a call some time. Just checked out the reticle manual for what we think is the reticle you're talking about and it seemed to make sense, but we're also the ones who wrote it so maybe it sucks. Always happy to chat subtensions on the phone (800-426-0048 Ext. 5)
That one time you had to spend a bunch of money to send in new scopes for turret issues - We effed up. You should have gotten a shipping label to get those back because they were new.
Anyway - Hopefully that was some mildly interesting reading material for your holiday. We appreciate you using our stuff in the areas of your kit you mentioned that have Vortex represented. Like we said - no issues at all with your recommendations, just feeling scrappy today. Could use a few brews ourselves!
Cheers and Happy 4th
- Jimmy H
mpalmr8999
07-03-19, 16:19
Thanks all of you guys for your helpfull reply. Finally took the Burris Xtreme Tactical XTRII 3-15x50mm SCR Mil
Eurodriver
07-03-19, 16:21
Jimmy and I talked for almost 40 minutes and discussed everything above. He pointed some things out and educated me a bit. He’s a great guy, and Vortex has been doing big things since the Gen I PSTs.
I’m ready to put a Vortex on my next rifle.
turnburglar
07-03-19, 16:35
Jimmy and I talked for almost 40 minutes and discussed everything above. He pointed some things out and educated me a bit. He’s a great guy, and Vortex has been doing big things since the Gen I PSTs.
I’m ready to put a Vortex on my next rifle.
LOL they got you back cheap.
It's Leica or Die for me.
Jimmy and I talked for almost 40 minutes and discussed everything above. He pointed some things out and educated me a bit. He’s a great guy, and Vortex has been doing big things since the Gen I PSTs.
I’m ready to put a Vortex on my next rifle.
Don’t you have a PST Gen II 1-6 on the shorty that you were grouping Wolf Gold with?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Eurodriver
07-03-19, 17:50
Don’t you have a PST Gen II 1-6 on the shorty that you were grouping Wolf Gold with?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah I do. And I like it and it stood up to everything even noonesshowmonkey (or Firefly, can’t remember) dropping it out of the bed of a pickup. I know it’s a lot of text but the above explains why I’m ok buying their mid range stuff but won’t shell out the coin for a Razor over a NF.
Thanks all of you guys for your helpfull reply. Finally took the Burris Xtreme Tactical XTRII 3-15x50mm SCR Mil
Let us know how it works for you. I'm always interested in seeing what works for people.
RobertTheTexan
07-03-19, 23:21
Let us know how it works for you. I'm always interested in seeing what works for people.
Not that it’s this scope but I’ve had 3 Burris XTR II Extreme Tactical scopes (1-8, 1.5-8, and 5-25h) and I was always impressed with glass quality and the ruggedness of the scope. They aren’t exactly light with 34mm tubes, but they were/are damn solid. Worth every cent.
Jimmy and I talked for almost 40 minutes and discussed everything above. He pointed some things out and educated me a bit. He’s a great guy, and Vortex has been doing big things since the Gen I PSTs.
I’m ready to put a Vortex on my next rifle.
Euro, I believe in karma and bad juju. You bring another Vortex into the fold and your Nightforces are going to rebel. You'll be filling out RAs to NF big time. I have a small stable of Vortex products. Viper HD 20-60 spotter, Spitfire AR, Spitfire 3X, Razor Gen 2 1-6. If I bring a NF SHV into the mix, I just know I'll be PMing Jimmy days on end about what the hell is happening to my Poor-, I mean Vortex's! Oh, and don't accept any Vortex swag from Jimmy, like caps and t-shirts, not even decals. That will surly doom your NF scopes. NF charges big time to send one of their spec-ops guys to perform an exorcism to clear out the bad Vortex juju. Could take days, maybe weeks.
When you get the urge to buy a Vortex start getting drunk until the urge passes. Your family of NFs will bless you with precision groups at any target, at any range. No bullshit! Have a Happy & Memorable 4th.
P.S. Jimmy, Do you think you can send me a Vortex cap. I don't think Euro really wants one now that he knows the back story! :cool:
VortexOptics
07-05-19, 08:43
Euro, I believe in karma and bad juju. You bring another Vortex into the fold and your Nightforces are going to rebel. You'll be filling out RAs to NF big time. I have a small stable of Vortex products. Viper HD 20-60 spotter, Spitfire AR, Spitfire 3X, Razor Gen 2 1-6. If I bring a NF SHV into the mix, I just know I'll be PMing Jimmy days on end about what the hell is happening to my Poor-, I mean Vortex's! Oh, and don't accept any Vortex swag from Jimmy, like caps and t-shirts, not even decals. That will surly doom your NF scopes. NF charges big time to send one of their spec-ops guys to perform an exorcism to clear out the bad Vortex juju. Could take days, maybe weeks.
When you get the urge to buy a Vortex start getting drunk until the urge passes. Your family of NFs will bless you with precision groups at any target, at any range. No bullshit! Have a Happy & Memorable 4th.
P.S. Jimmy, Do you think you can send me a Vortex cap. I don't think Euro really wants one now that he knows the back story! :cool:
You win a cap for creativity and the fact that I spit out my OJ this morning reading that and laughing so hard. Plz send PM
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