View Full Version : Edward Gallagher found not guilty
Averageman
07-03-19, 10:27
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/navy-seal-edward-gallagher-trial-found-not-guilty-murder-isis-fighter-today-2019-07-02/
A decorated Navy SEAL was found not guilty of committing murder in Iraq. A jury did convict Special Operations Chief Edward Gallagher of posing for photographs with a dead war casualty.
Gallagher learned his fate after six hours of deliberation by a seven person military jury. The trial revealed a SEAL team divided with a dozen members testifying.
Seven SEALs, including two who said they witnessed the act, accused Gallagher of repeatedly stabbing an injured teenage ISIS fighter in the neck and body while other members of the team were treating his wounds in May of 2017. He then allegedly posed in front of the corpse as part of a reenlistment ceremony.
Gallagher's attorney described the trial as a mutiny led by junior SEALs that did not like his clients demanding leadership style. The two week trial was rocked by shocking moments including a stunning admission from a prosecution witness, Navy SEAL Corey Scott, who said he and not Gallagher, killed the injured teenage ISIS fighter. When the defense attorney asked Scott why, he replied, "I knew he would die anyway."
This was a pretty amazing trial, if you've ever served or are serving now this is a very deeply disturbing tale if Gallagher's take on this is correct.
A couple things: I can't figure out if he was found not guilty, or acquitted. It's a 50/50 mix of headlines and stories. And there is a difference.
I don't know if he's guilty of the things of which he was accused, but his career is done, and so are those of his colleagues. The whole debacle is a black eye for military justice, and NSW.
platoonDaddy
07-31-19, 20:00
WOW, they just got their dicks stepped on!
President Trump on Wednesday directed the Navy to rescind medals that had been awarded to the lawyers who prosecuted Edward "Eddie" Gallagher, just weeks after a jury in San Diego found the Navy SEAL not guilty on six of seven charges for his connection to the killing of a teenage Islamic State member in Iraq.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-calls-for-navy-to-rescind-medals-for-eddie-gallaghers-prosecutors
Coal Dragger
07-31-19, 22:23
Sounds like they kind of deserved it.
Averageman
07-31-19, 23:55
Ever hear of a JAG Lawyer that actually wanted to defend someone?
Yeah me neither.
These SOB's however broke the law trying to prosecute someone. They need to serve the sentence they were going to insure Gallagher was going to get.
Today you can get a NAM for just showing up. It's ridiculously easy. Used to be much harder when approval authority was higher and not local command. It's hilarious they got their pee-pees smacked by POTUS.
Ever hear of a JAG Lawyer that actually wanted to defend someone?
Yeah me neither.
These SOB's however broke the law trying to prosecute someone. They need to serve the sentence they were going to insure Gallagher was going to get.
I have. I did court-martial trial defense for a year and half. I later did court-martial appellate work for two years. I know dozens of other Judge Advocates who went to the mat every day defending their clients.
If you are implying that the defense bar rolls over for the government, you are sadly mistaken.
On the other hand, if you want to look at prosecutorial misconduct, pull up a chair.
Can someone please fix the title of this thread? It’s triggering my snowflakey OCD.
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sundance435
08-01-19, 10:30
I have. I did court-martial trial defense for a year and half. I later did court-martial appellate work for two years. I know dozens of other Judge Advocates who went to the mat every day defending their clients.
If you are implying that the defense bar rolls over for the government, you are sadly mistaken.
On the other hand, if you want to look at prosecutorial misconduct, pull up a chair.
Agreed. I know a few on the JAG defense side and I wouldn't feel like I was getting anything less than the best representation if I had them. I actually sympathize to an extent with some criminal defense attorneys, especially public defenders. Unless you have money, the state/military has the monopoly on power and resources and it's literally David vs. Goliath. Even the biggest POS is entitled to a vigorous, diligent defense. It's one of the things that separates us from the savages.
Aside from pre-deployment wills my only interaction with JAG was when they came through when the Marines were buying the brand new MARPAT cammies and selling them at surplus stores and on eBay...
I tried to keep legal authority at a good distance....
Averageman
08-01-19, 12:03
I have. I did court-martial trial defense for a year and half. I later did court-martial appellate work for two years. I know dozens of other Judge Advocates who went to the mat every day defending their clients.
If you are implying that the defense bar rolls over for the government, you are sadly mistaken.
On the other hand, if you want to look at prosecutorial misconduct, pull up a chair.
My experience has been "Just take the article 15" might as well be on tape loop, that way they could put their feet up on the desk and sleep the day away.
The office space would have been better used as a janitors closet.
SeriousStudent
08-01-19, 17:43
Can someone please fix the title of this thread? It’s triggering my snowflakey OCD.
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It should be called CDO - that is the correct alphabetical order.
I also fixed the title.
It should be called CDO - that is the correct alphabetical order.
I also fixed the title.
Well thanks, not sure I’ll ever go without noticing that now.
Closer on topic - I find it optimistic that the NSW chief’s email said that their actions are causing the SEAL reputation to be questioned. I don’t know about everyone else, but for me, questioning went out the window when the DEVGRU guys killed the GB. My dad was in the navy for a very long time and I had huge respect for the NSW community. Our neighbor for a few years was the one star that Luttrell had a paragraph in his book that indicated he was an awesome leader and for a while, all I wanted to do was be a SEAL. But after hearing several (albeit one sided) stories from Army SOF that worked with them and all of the issues in the last few years, I’m more disgusted than anything. The Navy as a whole is having a lot of issues. SOCOM is too, but the SEALs have been reigning champs of disgrace for a while now.
Seent literally within 60 seconds after my above post:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190802/2a0db54f341907b9a8aba60d199345a2.jpg
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Like a lot of us on here, I worked pretty closely with NSW. Actually, in my post-Recon days and in the reserve I worked pretty extensively with NSWU-4 at Roosy Roads, and generally I had a great time.
That said, over the past 20 years or so, maybe twenty-five, the culture has definitely taken a hit. There's been some horrible leadership, they think they can operate outside of rules and ROEs, they try to be the Jack of all trades but the master of none, and they've been less than impressive. It starts at the top. Leadership has let it go that way, and everyone needs to be held accountable, but there needs to be some changes at leadership.
I never got into the group hard on and Love fest because of trident.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-02-19, 13:12
There are no bad teams, just bad leaders. -Jocko Willink
There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers. -David Hackworth
The Navy SEALS are an incredible, heroic, and highly trained force. They have lost their discipline, and this can be attributed to a loss of leadership. I would imagine that their lives are about to get very uncomfortable as their leaders are disciplined, because it always rolls down hill. As it should.
My experience has been "Just take the article 15" might as well be on tape loop, that way they could put their feet up on the desk and sleep the day away.
The office space would have been better used as a janitors closet.
Article 15 is an administrative process. No defense counsel are detailed. It is a rights advisement only. DCs are only detailed to special and general courts-martial. So, not accurate to criticize for a matter DCs are not involved in.
I'd have to see the desk and sleep thing to believe it.
Succinct version of what has occurred: Too many SEALS read Richard Marchinko books.
Diamondback
08-02-19, 17:41
There are no bad teams, just bad leaders. -Jocko Willink
There are no bad soldiers, only bad officers. -David Hackworth
IIRC, MacArthur said it before Hack, and it was "old wisdom" even in Old Pipechomper's day. Doesn't diminish the point, in fact I'd argue it reinforces it. :)
sundance435
08-03-19, 10:47
Closer on topic - I find it optimistic that the NSW chief’s email said that their actions are causing the SEAL reputation to be questioned. I don’t know about everyone else, but for me, questioning went out the window when the DEVGRU guys killed the GB. My dad was in the navy for a very long time and I had huge respect for the NSW community. Our neighbor for a few years was the one star that Luttrell had a paragraph in his book that indicated he was an awesome leader and for a while, all I wanted to do was be a SEAL. But after hearing several (albeit one sided) stories from Army SOF that worked with them and all of the issues in the last few years, I’m more disgusted than anything. The Navy as a whole is having a lot of issues. SOCOM is too, but the SEALs have been reigning champs of disgrace for a while now.
Like a lot of us on here, I worked pretty closely with NSW. Actually, in my post-Recon days and in the reserve I worked pretty extensively with NSWU-4 at Roosy Roads, and generally I had a great time.
That said, over the past 20 years or so, maybe twenty-five, the culture has definitely taken a hit. There's been some horrible leadership, they think they can operate outside of rules and ROEs, they try to be the Jack of all trades but the master of none, and they've been less than impressive. It starts at the top. Leadership has let it go that way, and everyone needs to be held accountable, but there needs to be some changes at leadership.
All good insight. The fact is, though, that the Navy can still sweep this under the rug with only cosmetic changes. Other than guys "in the know", 95% of the American public thinks of them as the guys who killed UBL. I'm sure they don't even realize that there is DEVGRU and then a bunch of other teams - they're all DEVGRU-types to most people.
Something's gotta give with the never-ending push for more special operations forces. The results of that are just starting to make it into the public view with these high-profile cases. Even the killing of the green beret was just a blip on the radar. Personally, based on the guys I know from the Regiment, I'd say the Army should just stand up another Ranger batt and be good for a while. They'll then be the guys that filter over to special forces and Delta. There's no better direct-action force in the world than the Rangers.
On another, topical note. You guys with experience - what can NSW do to fix this?
All good insight. The fact is, though, that the Navy can still sweep this under the rug with only cosmetic changes. Other than guys "in the know", 95% of the American public thinks of them as the guys who killed UBL. I'm sure they don't even realize that there is DEVGRU and then a bunch of other teams - they're all DEVGRU-types to most people.
Something's gotta give with the never-ending push for more special operations forces. The results of that are just starting to make it into the public view with these high-profile cases. Even the killing of the green beret was just a blip on the radar. Personally, based on the guys I know from the Regiment, I'd say the Army should just stand up another Ranger batt and be good for a while. They'll then be the guys that filter over to special forces and Delta. There's no better direct-action force in the world than the Rangers.
On another, topical note. You guys with experience - what can NSW do to fix this?
Given the current climate, and given what has happened over the past 20 years, there will really be no slow down for SOF anytime soon. They are never fully manned, I don't think they ever will be, and all branches are increasing their billets. I've been out long enough where I don't know people active in the community anymore, but I know they had been fiddling with BUDS and some say not in a good way and the final product is not as good as it used to be. I don't know, but we do know that if you want to push through more numbers, standards usually drop. I'm not talking about the physical either, I'm talking about the character and mental.
I do think that the black eye with navy special warfare will allow for more missions for the Army and Marines, so I know the rangers are probably going to see a bump at least in the short-term. Same for MARSOC.
Everything is so public now and the reputation is so stained I don't think the Navy will sweep this under the rug. I think senior leadership will start to take steps to change the culture and leadership to right the ship. It will take some time, and it will be painful, but it has to happen.
It's pretty dark right now for them, but they will get all of their crap in one bag and turn things around. It will take time.
All good insight. The fact is, though, that the Navy can still sweep this under the rug with only cosmetic changes. Other than guys "in the know", 95% of the American public thinks of them as the guys who killed UBL. I'm sure they don't even realize that there is DEVGRU and then a bunch of other teams - they're all DEVGRU-types to most people.
Something's gotta give with the never-ending push for more special operations forces. The results of that are just starting to make it into the public view with these high-profile cases. Even the killing of the green beret was just a blip on the radar. Personally, based on the guys I know from the Regiment, I'd say the Army should just stand up another Ranger batt and be good for a while. They'll then be the guys that filter over to special forces and Delta. There's no better direct-action force in the world than the Rangers.
On another, topical note. You guys with experience - what can NSW do to fix this?
Rangers rarely go to SF anymore. That used to be the path in the pre and early GWOT days, but now they’re looked at much more as competitors and Rangers are typically convinced no to go that route, if they even want to. The cultures are almost opposite in many ways.
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Averageman
08-03-19, 11:16
Article 15 is an administrative process. No defense counsel are detailed. It is a rights advisement only. DCs are only detailed to special and general courts-martial. So, not accurate to criticize for a matter DCs are not involved in.
I'd have to see the desk and sleep thing to believe it.
You're not getting the point.
If you go in and say "This is wrong, I wont accept and Article Fifteen for this charge." the answer is "Take the Article Fifteen." The facts make no difference, they don't want to get out of the comfy chair and go take a look.
Succinct version of what has occurred: Too many SEALS read Richard Marchinko books.
SEALs are the Florida Man of SOF.
That’s right. Come get me. ;)
ThirdWatcher
08-04-19, 05:32
I have. I did court-martial trial defense for a year and half. I later did court-martial appellate work for two years. I know dozens of other Judge Advocates who went to the mat every day defending their clients.
If you are implying that the defense bar rolls over for the government, you are sadly mistaken.
On the other hand, if you want to look at prosecutorial misconduct, pull up a chair.
Sir, I’m thankful for people like you. While I’ve served my adult life in Law Enforcement (beginning with a hitch in Army Military Police) I like checks and balances. My oldest daughter served as a Paralegal Specialist in JAG when on active duty and in Trial Defense while in the Army Reserve (I was thankful she got to see both sides).
Like a good lock keeps an honest man honest, a good attorney maintains the integrity of the system.
FWIW, if the prosecution withheld or ignored exculpatory evidence (as is alleged in this case) I am concerned.
SEALs are the Florida Man of SOF.
That’s right. Come get me. ;)
Now that is funny
You're not getting the point.
If you go in and say "This is wrong, I wont accept and Article Fifteen for this charge." the answer is "Take the Article Fifteen." The facts make no difference, they don't want to get out of the comfy chair and go take a look.
No, I get the point. You want to bad mouth lawyers.
The facts make all the difference, such as the difference between Gallagher being found guilty or not guilty.
NJP counseling is a rights advisement. No defense counsel is detailed to the servicemember. Therefore, there is no basis upon which to get out of the comfy chair (which I have never seen in a government office but that is beside the point) and go take a look. By regulation, defense counsel are prohibited from self-assigning to a matter and undertaking representation.
Now, once charges are preferred and referred to a courts-martial, and a defense counsel is detailed to the case, there will be no end to going to take a look.
I represented a Marine at general court-martial charged with rape. The victim claimed the scratches on her hands and arms were the result of the attack. I took the NCIS photos over to a dermatologist at the base hospital. He said the puckering on the scabs etc. would suggest the scratches were days to weeks old, not hours. The scratches were also thin, not wide like a human finger nail. Based upon that information, I kept digging, and later found out that the victim had recently adopted a kitten from the shelter. She was trying to pass off old cat scratches as support for her complaint.
It was just that Marine and me up against the MPs from PMO that initially responded and took reports, up against NCIS agents who prepared the investigation and were willing to submit the photos as evidence of her fight\ting back/lack of consent, up against the command who had ostracized the Marine (try and find a character witness), the SJA's office who did not want the negative publicity, as well as government counsel. The two of us were not provided any investigative assistance. I did however get the dermatologist detailed as a defense expert. So, now there were three us against the entire resources of the federal government.
It was he said, she said. The woman and government had no response or explanation for the cat scratches. That Marine was found not guilty. So, "Ever hear of a JAG Lawyer that actually wanted to defend someone?" Now you have. That was only one of many cases. I am only one of hundreds of defense counsel.
Now, are all cases worthy of Perry Mason? No. I was detailed to represent a corpsman (female) who worked days in the MCAS Cherry Point hospital and wanted to get into the LSD dealing business during the nights. NCIS did an undercover buy. They met her at an empty parking lot. The UC was in a vehicle perfectly placed in front of the video surveillance van. He is also mic-ed up. She rolls up. He asks why she is in the parking. She says to buy the LSD. He says how much. She says 100. He holds out 100 hits for the camera but is standing a little ways back. She has to reach out for them. He says here are the 100 hits. She pulls out a wad of cash. He fans it out for the camera and says the purchase is complete. She got cuffed up on the spot.
There is no question of guilt. It was a good buy. Go through all the entrapment, duress, etc. defenses there are and you come up with nothing. That was a case to fight for sentence and pilots are not going to be happy about their medical support tripping on acid. She turned down a "bareback special" i.e., the charges go to special court-martial, plead guilty, and punishment is limited to SPCM, at that time six months confinement, six months forfeitures, E-1, and BCD (six, six, and a kick). She fired her first defense counsel and got me detailed. I recommenced the deal and tried to get it back from the government. They said she had her chance, general court-martial, one year confinement, BDC. I recommenced it, she fired me. She got her grandmother to remortgage her house to pay a civilian lawyer. She ended up with a federal felony conviction and a few years in the brig. But that is not because a JA did not want to actually defend the case.
Diamondback
08-06-19, 16:41
And another plot twist...
https://taskandpurpose.com/admiral-that-oversaw-eddie-gallagher-prosecution-implicated-in-fat-leonard-probe-navy-documents-indicate?utm_campaign=RebelAlerts&utm_medium=email&utm_source=RebelAlerts-taskandpurpose&utm_source=Task+%26+Purpose+Daily&utm_campaign=d2c0dd663e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_08_06_07_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_67edd998fe-d2c0dd663e-79541773&mc_cid=d2c0dd663e&mc_eid=e17583927e
sundance435
08-06-19, 16:51
And another plot twist...
https://taskandpurpose.com/admiral-that-oversaw-eddie-gallagher-prosecution-implicated-in-fat-leonard-probe-navy-documents-indicate?utm_campaign=RebelAlerts&utm_medium=email&utm_source=RebelAlerts-taskandpurpose&utm_source=Task+%26+Purpose+Daily&utm_campaign=d2c0dd663e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_08_06_07_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_67edd998fe-d2c0dd663e-79541773&mc_cid=d2c0dd663e&mc_eid=e17583927e
Bolivar waiving hands in Gallagher’s direction - “Look at what HE did!”
Bolivar waiving hands in Gallagher’s direction - “Look at what HE did!”
Fair to make that statement without giving her due process?
sundance435
08-07-19, 05:23
Fair to make that statement without giving her due process?
Pretty sure “red flag” means something else in the Navy. Besides, subjective opinion/selective inference is all it takes in Oceania anymore.
Diamondback
08-07-19, 16:08
But Wait, There's More!
Navy reassigns prosecutor caught trying to spy on Gallagher defense team before trial
https://taskandpurpose.com/navy-czaplak-reassigned
But Wait, There's More!
Navy reassigns prosecutor caught trying to spy on Gallagher defense team before trial
https://taskandpurpose.com/navy-czaplak-reassigned
He should've been made the new driver for the base commander. :rolleyes:
Diamondback
08-07-19, 17:08
He should've been made the new driver for the base commander. :rolleyes:
Naw, bust him down to E-1 and put on Latrine Cleaning duty for the rest of his career... on a duty-station with rampant explosive diarrhea.
Coal Dragger
08-07-19, 19:58
Is it possible to bust down a commissioned officer who’s never been enlisted to an enlisted rank?
Just cashier him out, and do it publicly.
Is it possible to bust down a commissioned officer who’s never been enlisted to an enlisted rank?
Just cashier him out, and do it publicly.
No reduction in rank for officers.
ThirdWatcher
08-08-19, 01:05
No reduction in rank for officers.
The Army busted that MP BG back to COL. after Abu Ghraib.
The Army busted that MP BG back to COL. after Abu Ghraib.
Karpinski(?) was administratively reduced, not by court-martial.
ThirdWatcher
08-09-19, 04:32
OK, the devil is in the details.
platoonDaddy
11-23-19, 19:01
Where there's smoke, there's fire
Navy Secretary Richard Spencer threatened to resign, a charge he denies, if the Navy was not allowed to go through with an administrative review board next month to determine if Eddie Gallagher could remain a SEAL, multiple Navy officials confirmed to Fox News.
Earlier Saturday, The New York Times reported that along with Spencer, Naval Special Warfare (NSW) Commander Rear Adm. Collin Green also threatened to resign if the Navy carries out the request of President Trump to restore Gallagher’s rank to chief petty officer after he was demoted last summer. Gallagher was found not guilty of murdering an Islamic State (ISIS) fighter during a 2017 deployment to Iraq but was convicted of posing for a photo with the dead corpse.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/navy-secretary-top-seal-resignation-trump
Diamondback
11-23-19, 19:39
Talk is cheap, Collard, get to obeyin' orders or get to resignin'. Article 88 and 134 his ass.
If this rank insubordination is allowed to stand, we owe MacArthur an apology.
Diamondback
11-23-19, 19:41
No reduction in rank for officers.
Wasn't that Hassan scumbag reduced from Major to one of the lower E-series after the Ft. Hood shooting as part of his sentence?
Wasn't that Hassan scumbag reduced from Major to one of the lower E-series after the Ft. Hood shooting as part of his sentence?
All I can find is total forfeitures of all pay and allowances, dismissal (equal to dishonorable discharge) from the service, and death.
Diamondback
11-23-19, 22:20
All I can find is total forfeitures of all pay and allowances, dismissal (equal to dishonorable discharge) from the service, and death.
Thanks for the check--that's more your wheelhouse than mine. (4-F, and my particular specialty as a historian is more the machinery and technologies than bureaucracy and legalities--ironic that while my main focus is WWII in the air, my main ongoing contract is research and analysis on the various wars from Seven Years to Third Barbary at sea.)
Seems I remember Obama fired 180+ general/flag grade officers. Might just be time for Trump to do the same. :(
Averageman
11-24-19, 08:25
It's ironic to me that three years in to a four year term, liberals, both in and out of uniform seem determined to ensure its three years in to an eight year legacy.
How do you move that far up in the Navy and not understand who the boss is and what the boss demands?
It's that or you've decided to become the goat the Democrats have staked on a tether.
The worst thing you could do to our current POTUS is ignore him and bide your time with logical argument along the way.
Instead, they do this type of stuff.
SeriousStudent
11-24-19, 14:05
Shit or get off the pot.
Either have the balls to publicly resign or shut the eff up and do your job, Admiral.
titsonritz
11-24-19, 14:34
Where there's smoke, there's fire
https://www.foxnews.com/us/navy-secretary-top-seal-resignation-trump
'This is about ego and retaliation'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dkz9MdRTZo
platoonDaddy
11-24-19, 17:37
Defense Secretary Mark Esper fired Navy Secretary Richard Spencer Sunday over his handling of the case of a Navy SEAL who posed for a photo next to an Islamic State terrorist’s corpse in Iraq, and the SEAL will be able to keep his Trident pin, a Pentagon spokesman said Sunday.
“Secretary of Defense Mark T. Esper has asked for the resignation of Secretary of the Navy Richard Spencer after losing trust and confidence in him regarding his lack of candor over conversations with the White House involving the handling of Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher,” Pentagon spokesman Jonathan Hoffman said in a statement Sunday.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/navy-seal-eddie-gallagher-review-board-trump-interference
Defense Secretary Mark Esper fired Navy Secretary Richard Spencer Sunday over his handling of the case of a Navy SEAL who posed for a photo next to an Islamic State terrorist’s corpse in Iraq, and the SEAL will be able to keep his Trident pin, a Pentagon spokesman said Sunday.
“Secretary of Defense Mark T. Esper has asked for the resignation of Secretary of the Navy Richard Spencer after losing trust and confidence in him regarding his lack of candor over conversations with the White House involving the handling of Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher,” Pentagon spokesman Jonathan Hoffman said in a statement Sunday.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/navy-seal-eddie-gallagher-review-board-trump-interference
Green needs the same treatment.
Lol Dick... spenser...
To easy.
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Talk is cheap, Collard, get to obeyin' orders or get to resignin'. Article 88 and 134 his ass.
If this rank insubordination is allowed to stand, we owe MacArthur an apology.
Eff MacArthur. I thought you were an historian, you should no better.
Diamondback
11-24-19, 22:38
Eff MacArthur. I thought you were an historian, you should no better.
My point is Mac was canned for less, and not even the blatant "eff that guy I don't care if he IS the CINC" that Green tossed when he announced his intent to strip Gallagher's trident anyway.
Seems I remember Obama fired 180+ general/flag grade officers. Might just be time for Trump to do the same. :(
This was brought up on another forum. According to the info posted there, most of those firing/reliefs were for cause - dipping wick in company ink, etc. Very little 'you don't please me, go away.'
President Trump should just stick with relieving for cause - if he specifically tells someone something and they don't do it, that would be good enough.
This, to me, is true, and a problem: Spencer had privately told the White House that a tweet wasn't an official order and that if Trump was ordering the Navy to end the review board proceedings, he needed to do so in writing.
The Defense Department said Sunday that Esper had learned that — contrary to what he was saying in public — Spencer privately proposed to the White House both that Gallagher's rank be restored and that he be allowed to retire as a SEAL. It said Esper was never informed of the private proposal.
The Defense Department said Esper had lost "trust and confidence" in Spencer "regarding his lack of candor over conversations with the White House."
And Gallagher is getting ready for his book tour:
In an interview on Fox News Channel's "Fox & Friends" on Sunday, Gallagher accused the Navy of seeking to strip the SEAL designation as retribution for Trump's intervention on his behalf.
"This is all about retaliation. They could have taken my Trident at any time they wanted," he said. "Now they're trying to take it after the president restored my rank."
Referring to Rear Adm. Collin P. Green, who as commander of Naval Special Warfare Command is in charge of the SEALs, Gallagher alleged: "What the admiral is doing is showing complete insubordination."
But Ray Mabus, President Barack Obama's Navy secretary, suggested that it was Gallagher who was being insubordinate. (try to overl0ok tie to President Obama, Mabus speaks the truth)
"Here's a guy who is still on active duty. Here's a guy who is going on television to argue this case," Mabus said Sunday on MSNBC's "Up With David Gura."
"It's so dangerous for good order and discipline, so dangerous for military forces to get this politicized," Mabus said. "You simply cannot have good order and discipline. You simply cannot hold people accountable. You simply cannot have the elite fighting force if you allow things like this to happen."
Mabus said it was vital that the review board take any final action, not the administration.
"If you set this sort of precedent, then how do you tell the next SEAL that is up on charges not to go public, not to try to undermine their superiors, not to try to change a military judgment and make it a political one?"
Annnd, Gallagher gets to keep his Trident:
Esper has also ended the Navy's plans to hold a review board, which would recommend to the head of Naval Special Warfare Command whether to revoke Gallagher's SEAL trident, Hoffman said.
"Secretary Esper's position with regard to UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice], disciplinary, and fitness for duty actions has always been that the process should be allowed to play itself out objectively and deliberately, in fairness to all parties," Hoffman said in the statement. "However, at this point, given the events of the last few days, Secretary Esper has directed that Gallagher retain his Trident pin."
Before we get all butt hurt one way or the other, I think it is important to remember the cloud that has been over this case from the beginning:
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/04/22/what-motivated-fellow-seals-to-dime-out-eddie-gallagher/
Trump's accomplishing two big goals by intervening to assist war criminals.
1. Firing up the Base. They admire tough guys that can sweep away pesky laws and get things they like done. If Seals want to cut throats and pose, more power to 'em.
2. And this is much more subtle: Trump is forging a personal bond with enlisted soldiers. He's telling them they don't have to obey laws, regulations, or even their commanding officers' orders. He's in their corner and their loyalty is to him, not the chain of command. It's the same signal Trump sent to law enforcement when he pardoned Sheriff Arpaio. Remember, Trump said quite a while ago that he wanted to be president for life, and he had the support of "the military, the police, and bikers" to that end.
ramairthree
11-25-19, 02:46
If You were having somebody reduced in rank and having their badge Taken,
Or having their tab stripped and an award revoked,
Because of an act they committed,
But that act was pardoned-
You should not be carrying out those punishments for that act.
Or you are all butt hurt and pissy and try to get away with it.
Or on principle if you find it so wrong you resign and let your replacement stop the acts.
Or on principle say you’re not stopping, get fired, and your replacement stops it.
Option one might be the right thing to do based on circumstances.
Option two is what a little boy with a big ego does.
Options three and four are what a big boy does if the situation is too much of a moral outrage or ethical dilemma for you to swallow.
I’m fine with losing a job over morals and ethics.
Getting fired from one over ego seems to be the punk way to go out.
ramairthree
11-25-19, 02:46
If You were having somebody reduced in rank and having their badge Taken,
Or having their tab stripped and an award revoked,
Because of an act they committed,
But that act was pardoned-
You should not be carrying out those punishments for that act.
Or you are all butt hurt and pissy and try to get away with it.
Or on principle if you find it so wrong you resign and let your replacement stop the acts.
Or on principle say you’re not stopping, get fired, and your replacement stops it.
Option one might be the right thing to do based on circumstances.
Option two is what a little boy with a big ego does.
Options three and four are what a big boy does if the situation is too much of a moral outrage or ethical dilemma for you to swallow.
I’m fine with losing a job over morals and ethics.
Getting fired from one over ego seems to be the punk way to go out.
America is becoming a fokiocracy: rule by Seals.
I have an employee that is a friend of Gallagher from the TEAMS. So I asked my guy about this story, he said Eddy was an old time frogman like my employee is. Which is the way it should be, men and women in Special Ops, are very special people. They need to be allowed to operate, that is the job. Go kill people, blow stuff up.
The PC world that sends lawyers in uniform, to go watch over real people in uniform has got to end. The same way it needs to end with DOJ lawyers from the obama time looking over the shoulders of cops.
So let's look at this case, a terrorist got killed. And... so what. He wasn't a nice person that was pulled over for speeding. He was a terrorist, a goat humping, head cutting off, bomber of girls schools and a supporter of honor killings of young women.
The world is a better place without him. Oh Ed had a photo with him and a dead terrorist, so what. Want to look at my photos. I tried to take a picture of every confirmed kill I did as a sniper. Was I in some of the pictures yeah so what.
To close, the idea that a trifecta of cops, special ops military and bikers are going to make Trump President for life is so far from reality as to be a joke.
I just came back from an initial survey of a 3rd world country, that 100% for sure is going to go through a revolution in the next few years. You could see and feel the evidence in the people, they had enough.
Then I land in the USA and go to my connecting flight and see a guy with a T shirt stretched over his fat gut that said Impeach Trump. Even with the stupidity here in the good old USA that is currently going on we are light years away from what I had just seen in a 3rd world paradise.
G-D bless special operators, doesn't matter USA, UK, Israel, Germany some of the best people I have ever had the blessing to play with.
Gallagher's life in the Navy and SEAL team will never be the same if he stays. They will make his life miserable.
Gallagher's life in the Navy and SEAL team will never be the same if he stays. They will make his life miserable.
Gallagher is retiring, the new school SEAL's who tried to take him down might be in for a rough ride, lots of NCIS misconduct and command bias involved in this case. But what's up with SEAL Admirals, are they all never Trumpers?
This was brought up on another forum. According to the info posted there, most of those firing/reliefs were for cause - dipping wick in company ink, etc. Very little 'you don't please me, go away.'
President Trump should just stick with relieving for cause - if he specifically tells someone something and they don't do it, that would be good enough.
This, to me, is true, and a problem: Spencer had privately told the White House that a tweet wasn't an official order and that if Trump was ordering the Navy to end the review board proceedings, he needed to do so in writing.
The Defense Department said Sunday that Esper had learned that — contrary to what he was saying in public — Spencer privately proposed to the White House both that Gallagher's rank be restored and that he be allowed to retire as a SEAL. It said Esper was never informed of the private proposal.
The Defense Department said Esper had lost "trust and confidence" in Spencer "regarding his lack of candor over conversations with the White House."
And Gallagher is getting ready for his book tour:
In an interview on Fox News Channel's "Fox & Friends" on Sunday, Gallagher accused the Navy of seeking to strip the SEAL designation as retribution for Trump's intervention on his behalf.
"This is all about retaliation. They could have taken my Trident at any time they wanted," he said. "Now they're trying to take it after the president restored my rank."
Referring to Rear Adm. Collin P. Green, who as commander of Naval Special Warfare Command is in charge of the SEALs, Gallagher alleged: "What the admiral is doing is showing complete insubordination."
But Ray Mabus, President Barack Obama's Navy secretary, suggested that it was Gallagher who was being insubordinate. (try to overl0ok tie to President Obama, Mabus speaks the truth)
"Here's a guy who is still on active duty. Here's a guy who is going on television to argue this case," Mabus said Sunday on MSNBC's "Up With David Gura."
"It's so dangerous for good order and discipline, so dangerous for military forces to get this politicized," Mabus said. "You simply cannot have good order and discipline. You simply cannot hold people accountable. You simply cannot have the elite fighting force if you allow things like this to happen."
Mabus said it was vital that the review board take any final action, not the administration.
"If you set this sort of precedent, then how do you tell the next SEAL that is up on charges not to go public, not to try to undermine their superiors, not to try to change a military judgment and make it a political one?"
Annnd, Gallagher gets to keep his Trident:
Esper has also ended the Navy's plans to hold a review board, which would recommend to the head of Naval Special Warfare Command whether to revoke Gallagher's SEAL trident, Hoffman said.
"Secretary Esper's position with regard to UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice], disciplinary, and fitness for duty actions has always been that the process should be allowed to play itself out objectively and deliberately, in fairness to all parties," Hoffman said in the statement. "However, at this point, given the events of the last few days, Secretary Esper has directed that Gallagher retain his Trident pin."
Before we get all butt hurt one way or the other, I think it is important to remember the cloud that has been over this case from the beginning:
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/04/22/what-motivated-fellow-seals-to-dime-out-eddie-gallagher/
Gallagher is saying his legal team now has evidence that SecNav was directly interfering in the handing of his case and aligning things to have his pin removed.
Is Gallagher guilty of war crime(s)? Possibly. What is irrefutable is that the Navy tried to pull off a rigged trial and failed. They had absolutely no intentions of putting on a fair review process. They'd already made the decision that Gallagher would lose his pin.
If you want to destroy the "good order and discipline of the troops", just let them know that they can't expect a fair disciplinary process should they be accused of doing something wrong.
Trump's accomplishing two big goals by intervening to assist war criminals.
1. Firing up the Base. They admire tough guys that can sweep away pesky laws and get things they like done. If Seals want to cut throats and pose, more power to 'em.
2. And this is much more subtle: Trump is forging a personal bond with enlisted soldiers. He's telling them they don't have to obey laws, regulations, or even their commanding officers' orders. He's in their corner and their loyalty is to him, not the chain of command. It's the same signal Trump sent to law enforcement when he pardoned Sheriff Arpaio. Remember, Trump said quite a while ago that he wanted to be president for life, and he had the support of "the military, the police, and bikers" to that end.
LOL
Averageman
11-25-19, 09:32
Bad decisions are made on the ground and at the pointy end of the spear, but the guy wielding that spear is living a life far removed from people in carpeted offices, drinking nice coffee and reviewing power point slides that someone else made for them for a briefing later that afternoon, of course that afternoon briefing will be right before they go home to their wife and kids.
It's a story as old as war, but the lesson is "It's wrong to pass judgement on something you know so little about."
I can forgive Gallagher, I can't forgive the Leadership that jumped through some pretty remarkable hoops playing dirty to get Gallagher and when the POTUS gave Gallagher a pass on his bad behavior, tried to play some more dirty tricks to twist the blade still in his back.
Once you go from justice, to "get him at any cost"and then, when it is over, you simply can't let it go and it becomes a vendetta, you have no command, no common sense and you've allowed your ego to over rule an order.
Perhaps if they had played fair with Gallagher in the first place, they wouldn't have had so much ego invested in taking it to the bitter end?
I remember fighting some guys all night, these SOB's were lobbing small arms in to a forward aid station when we got there. After about ten minutes of laying down some reality on these guys, the firing died down and then became sporadic. That wasn't good enough so we used half hour of some skilled fire and maneuver to stamp out the rest of the resistance.
In the morning these raggedy assed goat sodomizers came in, hands up wanting water and something to eat. One of my Junior NCO's switch flipped, a pistol came out and it was everything I could do to talk him down.
They got an MRE and a bottle of water and were escorted safely to the rear, because, well, that's the kind of Warriors we've become.
I often wonder how a similar incident would have been handled in WWII by our Grandfathers, well, not really, I have a pretty good idea how it would have went down, but that was back when our hearts were hard and we wanted to win the war and go back home.
Bad decisions are made on the ground and at the pointy end of the spear, but the guy wielding that spear is living a life far removed from people in carpeted offices, drinking nice coffee and reviewing power point slides that someone else made for them for a briefing later that afternoon, right before they go home to their wife and kids.
It's a story as old as war, but the lesson is "It's wrong to pass judgement on something you know so little about."
I can forgive Gallagher, I can't forgive the Leadership that jumped through some pretty remarkable hoops playing dirty to get Gallagher and when the POTUS gave Gallagher a pass on his bad behavior, tried to play some more dirty tricks to twist the blade still in his back.
Once you go from justice, to "get him at any cost"and then, when it is over, you simply can't let it go and it becomes a vendetta, you have no command, no common sense and you've allowed your ego to over rule an order.
Perhaps if they had played fair with Gallagher in the first place, they wouldn't have had so much ego invested in taking it to the bitter end?
See, here is where I am lost (and for the record, I have not been paying much attention to the circus).
Gallagher was tried in kangaroo court of trumped up (no pun intended), BS charges. Withholding exculpatory evidence, manipulating evidence and witnesses, etc. Yeah, bad, bad JAG. Exonerating him based on the preponderance of evidence was the right thing to do.
Here is where shit gets murky for me: did he, or did he not, pose with dead people? Was he, or was he not, guilty of the unethical (as separate from criminal) behavior? If yes, take his pin and credentials. If no, and Trump is merely trying to restore his and and Good Order, he is right to fight it. In any case, his career in NSW is dead; he will ride a desk doing obscure paperwork. If he is guilty of unethical behavior, that I can't forgive, and screw him. If he is innocent, fight the man, Eddie, fight the man.
Averageman
11-25-19, 10:07
See, here is where I am lost (and for the record, I have not been paying much attention to the circus).
Gallagher was tried in kangaroo court of trumped up (no pun intended), BS charges. Withholding exculpatory evidence, manipulating evidence and witnesses, etc. Yeah, bad, bad JAG. Exonerating him based on the preponderance of evidence was the right thing to do.
Here is where shit gets murky for me: did he, or did he not, pose with dead people? Was he, or was he not, guilty of the unethical (as separate from criminal) behavior? If yes, take his pin and credentials. If no, and Trump is merely trying to restore his and and Good Order, he is right to fight it. In any case, his career in NSW is dead; he will ride a desk doing obscure paperwork. If he is guilty of unethical behavior, that I can't forgive, and screw him. If he is innocent, fight the man, Eddie, fight the man.
I've always said the stupidest thing you can bring to a battle is a damned camera, nothing good will come of it.
I will say however your "ethics" might get a bit twisted after a bit, if, what is good and morally right is to kill a man that is trying to kill you, or has committed some pretty heinous acts and you've been "Hunting " him, going over and taking a look or even pissing on him, doesn't bother me in the least.
Taking a picture, that's just asking for trouble.
Having said that, I haven't seen the picture.
I've always said the stupidest thing you can bring to a battle is a damned camera, nothing good will come of it.
I will say however your "ethics" might get a bit twisted after a bit, if, what is good and morally right is to kill a man that is trying to kill you, or has committed some pretty heinous acts and you've been "Hunting " him, going over and taking a look or even pissing on him, doesn't bother me in the least.
Taking a picture, that's just asking for trouble.
Having said that, I haven't seen the picture.
I get that. Then my next question would be, Mr. President, are you going to vacate all the punitive discharges and punishments handed out to all the other soldiers and Marines who got booted or screwed for the same thing? The other thing is, at his rank, he is supposed to be above that shit. He had how many combat deployments? Keep the cameras locked up, keep your mouths locked up, bring your people home.
See, here is where I am lost (and for the record, I have not been paying much attention to the circus).
Gallagher was tried in kangaroo court of trumped up (no pun intended), BS charges. Withholding exculpatory evidence, manipulating evidence and witnesses, etc. Yeah, bad, bad JAG. Exonerating him based on the preponderance of evidence was the right thing to do.
Here is where shit gets murky for me: did he, or did he not, pose with dead people? Was he, or was he not, guilty of the unethical (as separate from criminal) behavior? If yes, take his pin and credentials. If no, and Trump is merely trying to restore his and and Good Order, he is right to fight it. In any case, his career in NSW is dead; he will ride a desk doing obscure paperwork. If he is guilty of unethical behavior, that I can't forgive, and screw him. If he is innocent, fight the man, Eddie, fight the man.
What the Navy forgot is that once you're caught in a lie, everything you say is a lie. Well the U.S. Navy lied, a lot. They got caught and now they're pissed off that their credibility is lost (and it's the exact same problem the law enforcement profession finds itself in as well). So they tried to double down on their "rightness", and lost even more credibility. You simply can't do that with the expectation of recovering something you've already lost.
As far as the rest, is taking a photo with a dead terrorist unethical? Distasteful for sure, but I don't agree that it's unethical. We don't send SEALS because they're trained in conflict resolution. We send them because they're trained in conflict termination. That doesn't mean I want them committing war crimes like murdering an unarmed, wounded combatant on a stretcher, but I do expect the Navy to not make a debacle out of investigations just because they're in power and their word is indisputable.
What the Navy forgot is that once you're caught in a lie, everything you say is a lie. Well the U.S. Navy lied, a lot. They got caught and now they're pissed off that their credibility is lost (and it's the exact same problem the law enforcement profession finds itself in as well). So they tried to double down on their "rightness", and lost even more credibility. You simply can't do that with the expectation of recovering something you've already lost.
As far as the rest, is taking a photo with a dead terrorist unethical? Distasteful for sure, but I don't agree that it's unethical. We don't send SEALS because they're trained in conflict resolution. We send them because they're trained in conflict termination. That doesn't mean I want them committing war crimes like murdering an unarmed, wounded combatant on a stretcher, but I do expect the Navy to not make a debacle out of investigations just because they're in power and their word is indisputable.
I no makey the rules, but I do want to see the rules enforced--or let go--across the board. Totally agree re: assessment of JAG and NCIS investigation in this.
Averageman
11-25-19, 11:09
I get that. Then my next question would be, Mr. President, are you going to vacate all the punitive discharges and punishments handed out to all the other soldiers and Marines who got booted or screwed for the same thing? The other thing is, at his rank, he is supposed to be above that shit. He had how many combat deployments? Keep the cameras locked up, keep your mouths locked up, bring your people home.
I would guess and this is just a guess, that the brighter bulbs making decisions will take another look at some of these cases and do the right thing.
Military personnel have the right to appeal any decision, I would say, "If you feel you got railroaded, this is the time to appeal."
No one is going to look after your best interests like you will, writing an appeal isn't like splitting the atom, it can be done at home with a basic lap top.
I've done it for some hum bug administrative action and the review board pulled the paperwork like it never happened.
ramairthree
11-25-19, 11:16
I’m not sure what he really did or did not do.
A sine qua non of the SEALs I interacted with was they would circle wagons and close ranks and lie to cover each other.
To get a dozen of your fellow SEALs testifying against you would require being seriously hated, or evidence of shit sticking to a story could not overcome, with heavy enough consequences that people took a deal to testify against him so they did not go down.
I suspect the first sentence sort of thing went on for a while for multiple events. Then he crossed the line too many times and too far over it. They wanted a nice little package of not answering to the other events they ignored, being allowed to ignore other stuff on people they wanted to stay clean, pick and choose their evidence, events, etc.
If you have spent a planned deployment each year, plus a short deployment on no notice about each year,
For a decade or so,
And part of the job if taking a picture of the face of and a DNA sample from every dead savage left on target,
And pictures of the live ones getting rolled up next to their pile of combat materials,
Someone is eventually going to do something stupid with a camera.
Things can change fast.
These guys in the picture used to go on kill/capture missions and not really answer to anyone. They rolled up one dude one time that messed things up for everybody.
https://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu220/ramairfour/60D6D062-3367-4E63-A1AC-704FD6C0C68C_zpshspkjld0.jpeg (https://s649.photobucket.com/user/ramairfour/media/60D6D062-3367-4E63-A1AC-704FD6C0C68C_zpshspkjld0.jpeg.html)
I’m not sure what he really did or did not do.
A sine qua non of the SEALs I interacted with was they would circle wagons and close ranks and lie to cover each other.
To get a dozen of your fellow SEALs testifying against you would require being seriously hated, or evidence of shit sticking to a story could not overcome, with heavy enough consequences that people took a deal to testify against him so they did not go down.
I suspect the first sentence sort of thing went on for a while for multiple events. Then he crossed the line too many times and too far over it. They wanted a nice little package of not answering to the other events they ignored, being allowed to ignore other stuff on people they wanted to stay clean, pick and choose their evidence, events, etc.
If you have spent a planned deployment each year, plus a short deployment on no notice about each year,
For a decade or so,
And part of the job if taking a picture of the face of and a DNA sample from every dead savage left on target,
And pictures of the live ones getting rolled up next to their pile of combat materials,
Someone is eventually going to do something stupid with a camera.
Things can change fast.
These guys in the picture used to go on kill/capture missions and not really answer to anyone. They rolled up one dude one time that messed things up for everybody.
When I was in we were somewhere doing something and one of the guys working the camera in the LUP doing a 3-day recon of a target got bored and took some dick pics. He 'meant' to erase them. They were sent back to the MEU S2 shop. He got RIR and NJP. Cameras + war zone = bad outcomes if you are stupid.
Adrenaline_6
11-25-19, 12:39
Trump's accomplishing two big goals by intervening to assist war criminals.
1. Firing up the Base. They admire tough guys that can sweep away pesky laws and get things they like done. If Seals want to cut throats and pose, more power to 'em.
2. And this is much more subtle: Trump is forging a personal bond with enlisted soldiers. He's telling them they don't have to obey laws, regulations, or even their commanding officers' orders. He's in their corner and their loyalty is to him, not the chain of command. It's the same signal Trump sent to law enforcement when he pardoned Sheriff Arpaio. Remember, Trump said quite a while ago that he wanted to be president for life, and he had the support of "the military, the police, and bikers" to that end.
Ummm...you do know he was found innocent right?
Averageman
11-25-19, 14:14
Ummm...you do know he was found innocent right?
How has that ever been relevant to the people who were out to get Gallagher?
Gallagher's life in the Navy and SEAL team will never be the same if he stays. They will make his life miserable.
Maybe not. He'd be the golden boy. Anytime he felt irked, he could go back on Fox and whine to Brian Kilmeade or somebody how his superior officers were being unfair. Nobody wants a career ender like that , so they'd let CPO Gallagher run things. He'd have it made.
I read that he wanted to retire soon anyway. I was in San Diego a few weeks ago and came across two Sailors from his community and spoke briefly about this with them. One had him as a BUDs instructor and mentioned that he was harder than woodpecker lips. He also said in following phases that he was one of the most driven, capable Chiefs he had ever served under. Obviously the conversation didn't get deep but both of them seemed to genuinely respect him and were surprised where it ended up.
I have a hard time conjuring up any sympathy for the dead terrorists and/or believing the Navies take on all of this after they were proven to have a certain morale flexibility when it came to eating their own and presenting the truth. As far as the higher up's, well they don't have anything at all in common with the enlisted or even the JO's for that matter and certainly have their own agenda.
My guys say With Gallagher being an old time frogman and he was in fact as stated in a post here harder than woodpecker lips some of the new SEALS that brought different ideas to what being a frogman meant thought he was tooooooo hard on them and this whole mess came from that.
Wherever you stand on the morals of taking a picture with a dead enemy, I recall a picture with the better part of a platoon posing behind the body.
Only one guy in that picture was charged. That seems to back up the idea it was vindictive and arbitrary.
Gallagher's life in the Navy and SEAL team will never be the same if he stays. They will make his life miserable.
He is retiring this week. Hence the rush to take his Trident.
If he is guilty of unethical behavior, that I can't forgive, and screw him.
That is a pretty high standard for such a low-level offense, especially since unethical behavior usually is not a criminal offense.
That is a pretty high standard for such a low-level offense, especially since unethical behavior usually is not a criminal offense.
Apparently I have higher standards than many SEALs....
It doesn't have to be a criminal offense to be NJP'd, RIR'd, or to take a warfare device, especially from someone in a leadership position.
Apparently I have higher standards than many SEALs....
Forgiveness is a virtue.
He is retiring this week. Hence the rush to take his Trident.
Further proof it was entirely retaliatory. He committed the unpardonable sin of making them look bad. Scratch that, THEY made themselves look bad, he just outed them.
Voodoochild
11-25-19, 20:04
Crazy thing is if you believe him they could have taken his Trident at anytime. I don't know Jack about SEALS or how the internal workings go so I'll have to take his word unless proven otherwise.
Why bother with taking the Trident when you are trying to frame him for murder, it's only after that fell apart and he was acquitted that they decided to go for the Trident.
I ran an Army aerial taxi service on occasion for Rangers/Delta between 1983-1994. If any of you have spent time around Special Operations personnel, they are a cliquish bunch, quiet when around outsiders, and first class killers. This kind of business is not pretty, nor is it based on ethics and tight rules of engagement. I've seen some of these operators come back from a mission, covered in blood, and it wasn't their own.
I personally don't care if they stuck a head on stick and carried it around like a trophy, or booted it around like a soccer ball. As long as they're taking it to the enemy with extreme prejudice, I will suspend judgement and be thankful someone with greater capabilities than me are doing the work.
I ran an Army aerial taxi service on occasion for Rangers/Delta between 1983-1994. If any of you have spent time around Special Operations personnel, they are a cliquish bunch, quiet when around outsiders, and first class killers. This kind of business is not pretty, nor is it based on ethics and tight rules of engagement. I've seen some of these operators come back from a mission, covered in blood, and it wasn't their own.
I personally don't care if they stuck a head on stick and carried it around like a trophy, or booted it around like a soccer ball. As long as they're taking it to the enemy with extreme prejudice, I will suspend judgement and be thankful someone with greater capabilities than me are doing the work.
I agree, there was a case of a Gurkha team charged with killing an enemy big wig, one of their orders was to bring back proof that they got him. Well, they killed the dude and on their way to extraction they took heavy enemy fire. Unable to bring the entire body with them, they lopped the head off and beat feet to the LZ with it in a bag. I thought at the time when I first heard of it that it was quick thinking and pretty awesome.
ramairthree
11-25-19, 20:59
That is a pretty high standard for such a low-level offense, especially since unethical behavior usually is not a criminal offense.
If he thinks getting a photo with someone you tagged is the epitome of SEAL unethical behavior, he is not up to the rocking his Leave It To Beaver world would take.
If he thinks getting a photo with someone you tagged is the epitome of SEAL unethical behavior, he is not up to the rocking his Leave It To Beaver world would take.
I am the "he" of whom you speak, you other did not read my other posts or are knee jerking, I don't know which.
If what he did warrants pulling his warfare credentials, yet how many other dozens of guys are let go for the same thing or less, that's wrong. Is it a case of the president having a love affair with NSW? Don't know, don't care. I just want to see one standard.
But if Gallagher knew what he was doing violated professional ethical boundaries, especially as a high-ranking NCO, he should have known better. I don't give a **** what you have on your chest or your shoulder.
But since you know Jack about me, you can slow your roll with the assumptions there....
A few things I believe should be learned from Chief Gallagher's case and other cases, recent and past, where military personnel were prosecuted for their actions in a hostile area.
1) Never allow someone to take your photograph while engaged in an operation
2) Never participate in an interview with the media
3) Never talk with someone outside your community about an operation
A few things I believe should be learned from Chief Gallagher's case and other cases, recent and past, where military personnel were prosecuted for their actions in a hostile area.
1) Never allow someone to take your photograph while engaged in an operation
2) Never participate in an interview with the media
3) Never talk with someone outside your community about an operation
And yet the Pentagon has seen fit to release gun camera footage (mostly FLIR) from engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan showing the evisceration of enemy combatants. Lots of videos showing death and destruction from the M230 and AGM-114 from the Apache, or even the M134 from light aircraft like mine. But one dead body getting propped up for a picture is just too horrible and violates all standards of human decency. Oh the hypocrisy.
ramairthree
11-26-19, 01:23
I am the "he" of whom you speak, you other did not read my other posts or are knee jerking, I don't know which.
If what he did warrants pulling his warfare credentials, yet how many other dozens of guys are let go for the same thing or less, that's wrong. Is it a case of the president having a love affair with NSW? Don't know, don't care. I just want to see one standard.
But if Gallagher knew what he was doing violated professional ethical boundaries, especially as a high-ranking NCO, he should have known better. I don't give a **** what you have on your chest or your shoulder.
But since you know Jack about me, you can slow your roll with the assumptions there....
And who is going to make these things stick in these communities?
The squadron commander trying to force command personnel from other tiers to say a hostage did not die of frag wounds?
A different squadron commander walking into the sides of tents too shitfaced to make it to his CUB after celebrating with his boys the night before when he is a regional commander for a premier task force?
The squadron 3 of another trying to keep a tasked asset from being moved because he is banging a chick in it?
A SEAL tier one commander and a 3 star SEAL letting an entire troop slide for something but dropping the book on the Army 18D with them?
The whole point is if you think an E7 is a big Whig that should be held to a higher standard, you Have a leave it to beaver black and white kid’s image of what might be going on with those that should be holding him to that standard.
Too many senior command personnel have lost sight of the true value market value of not doing shady shit.
And ensuring any gray area shit you did was mission essential and without a lick of personal gain.
Nobody has anything on you and you can act freely without that hanging over you.
P2Vaircrewman
11-26-19, 08:13
From a place far away and long ago. Imagine such happenings in today's climate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mutilation_of_Japanese_war_dead
You think that's bad look at the de-facto pardons of the doctors and scientists of Japanese Unit 731 because we wanted their research. But about the current state of the SOF community, after 20 years of war lines begin to get blurry, actions that wouldn't raise an eyebrow in 2003 are now under a microscope. Part of this you can blame on the last administration, PC and restrictive rules of engagement became the norm and you begin to have investigators and lawyers beginning to look to currying favor and making a name for themselves with high profile cases. A lowly grunt offing someone is one thing but a old school SEAL doing it is a whole different level and worthy of lying, manufacturing evidence, and wiretapping the defense. Add in the command element who wants to curry political favor by cleaning up "his" house and you have situation ripe for abuse like this. The real disgrace in this matter is if the Navy is itching to clean house and get someone it they should be looking at the scumbags in NCIS and JAG who were willing to do anything to railroad Gallagher but of course that won't happen as they are part of the protected class.
You think that's bad look at the de-facto pardons of the doctors and scientists of Japanese Unit 731 because we wanted their research.
Agreed, but very different motivations for it of course.
And yet the Pentagon has seen fit to release gun camera footage (mostly FLIR) from engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan showing the evisceration of enemy combatants. Lots of videos showing death and destruction from the M230 and AGM-114 from the Apache, or even the M134 from light aircraft like mine. But one dead body getting propped up for a picture is just too horrible and violates all standards of human decency. Oh the hypocrisy.
I don't think these are exactly the same things, but I wonder how F'ed up someone would have to be to pose with dead body of someone they just killed like it was a 8 point buck.
I don't think these are exactly the same things, but I wonder how F'ed up someone would have to be to pose with dead body of someone they just killed like it was a 8 point buck.
There's a reason we don't put lawyers and accountants at the tip of the spear. Just saying...
I don't think these are exactly the same things, but I wonder how F'ed up someone would have to be to pose with dead body of someone they just killed like it was a 8 point buck.
I guess you have never spent time around members of the Special Operations community? With some of them, killing is an art form. The better the adversary, the better the satisfaction - it's the stuff they talk about among themselves. There's no "killing because we have to" mentality - some kill because they like it. It's just a fact and it's a hard individual to do that kind of work.
I don't think these are exactly the same things, but I wonder how F'ed up someone would have to be to pose with dead body of someone they just killed like it was a 8 point buck.
When have soldiers not done that? Was quite common in every major conflict since the camera was invented. Culture has changed a lot since then to be sure, and people want to believe it's neat and clean and like TV, but the difference between the prey they stalk and kill, 8 point bucks or booger eaters, likely loses it's importance to them and represents the same thing to them, a successful hunt. He should and no doubt does know taking such pics in this day and age is a no no. I personally find the whole " canoeing" thing in bad taste and something in need of internal correction, but they're already dead, so...
You say "someone" as in one, singular.
The pic is about halfway down. It is clearly not one individual.
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/11/21/navy-two-star-outlines-how-his-command-might-take-seal-tridents/
I am more opposed to selective, abusive prosecution than a distasteful picture.
You say "someone" as in one, singular.
The pic is about halfway down. It is clearly not one individual.
https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/11/21/navy-two-star-outlines-how-his-command-might-take-seal-tridents/
I am more opposed to selective, abusive prosecution than a distasteful picture.
Good read.
ramairthree
11-26-19, 12:07
I don't think these are exactly the same things, but I wonder how F'ed up someone would have to be to pose with dead body of someone they just killed like it was a 8 point buck.
Not very.
Posing in front of the charred remains of a bunch women and kids you burned to death when the only casualties you took were from friendly fire is F’d up.
But a pic kneeling next to the guy the made the IED that killed a dozen CANSOF that was shooting at you 20 feet away while trying to set up off the ignition on his IED belt that was put down fractions of a second before they could make more casualties...
I get the trophy mentality.
Sociopaths don’t typically end up in premiere units. But the small fraction of people that are dissociated, detached, etc. about killing people that need to be killed are heavily concentrated there.
Not very.
Posing in front of the charred remains of a bunch women and kids you burned to death when the only casualties you took were from friendly fire is F’d up.
But a pic kneeling next to the guy the made the IED that killed a dozen CANSOF that was shooting at you 20 feet away while trying to set up off the ignition on his IED belt that was put down fractions of a second before they could make more casualties...
I get the trophy mentality.
Sociopaths don’t typically end up in premiere units. But the small fraction of people that are dissociated, detached, etc. about killing people that need to be killed are heavily concentrated there.
If not able to do so to some degree, how long can you last in such units?
When death it your profession, you can't let it effect you like it does Joe-Civie.
It's war and if the enemy had the chance, they'd chop off your balls, stuff them in your mouth before raping you and then beheading you on camera.
So you don't feel the least bit bad when you off them in highly 'unfair' ways.
Because f#$k them, thats why.
And who is going to make these things stick in these communities?
The squadron commander trying to force command personnel from other tiers to say a hostage did not die of frag wounds?
A different squadron commander walking into the sides of tents too shitfaced to make it to his CUB after celebrating with his boys the night before when he is a regional commander for a premier task force?
The squadron 3 of another trying to keep a tasked asset from being moved because he is banging a chick in it?
A SEAL tier one commander and a 3 star SEAL letting an entire troop slide for something but dropping the book on the Army 18D with them?
The whole point is if you think an E7 is a big Whig that should be held to a higher standard, you Have a leave it to beaver black and white kid’s image of what might be going on with those that should be holding him to that standard.
Too many senior command personnel have lost sight of the true value market value of not doing shady shit.
And ensuring any gray area shit you did was mission essential and without a lick of personal gain.
Nobody has anything on you and you can act freely without that hanging over you.
I pretty much agree. I was around NSW, in and out of the periphery and off-and-on, mid-90s to mid-2000s. Some platoons are better than others; some teams are better than others. Command climate is everything. Some SEALs are just plain studs; others met minimal standards and it shows. But it all begins and ends with leadership and expectations. I was around when the Marines stood up Det 1, and leadership told them "no shenanigans or you are out." They laid the expectation.
For better or worse, NSW has been clown shoes (i.e., your examples) for a while, and especially now they have to be high and tight or they will invite extra intra-anal scrutiny.
ALL that said, senior leadership have done them no favors and the kangaroo court treatment of Gallagher was stunningly horrific. The only acceptable outcome is what happened (the hammer of Thor falling on JAG and NCIS) and him being reinstated. I say now what I said then: IF he was guilty of what he was accused, he should go down, hard. IF he was innocent, he should be fully exonerated. I am truly glad to see that happen. My only dog in the fight is a) IF he is guilty of the unethical/unprofessional behavior, SEALs get warfare devices yanked for that, so it's fair, and POTUS should not interfere (conversely, IF he is innocent, then let that come out and keep it); and b) make the ethical/professional standards applicable to everyone, not just people with eye-popping chest candy or a tab.
Don Robison
11-26-19, 12:41
No reduction in rank for officers.Tell that to BG Sinclair who was force retired as a Lot Col.
Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
I don't think these are exactly the same things, but I wonder how F'ed up someone would have to be to pose with dead body of someone they just killed like it was a 8 point buck.
There are plenty of dudes in every Army and Marine infantry unit that have no issue taking pics with their kills. When you get into Special Operations you will have even more. SOF dudes aren't the kind that are shy about killing.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-26-19, 12:51
I don't think these are exactly the same things, but I wonder how F'ed up someone would have to be to pose with dead body of someone they just killed like it was a 8 point buck.
Why is that "f'ed up"? Our WW2 vets did it religiously, put heads on spikes, took war trophies, cut out gold teeth, etc. Our Vietnam Vets continued this, sometimes making body part jewelry. What makes our GWOT vets "f'ed up" when it's something as old as war itself?
Why is that "f'ed up"? Our WW2 vets did it religiously, put heads on spikes, took war trophies, cut out gold teeth, etc. Our Vietnam Vets continued this, sometimes making body part jewelry. What makes our GWOT vets "f'ed up" when it's something as old as war itself?
Fair point. I just don't want us to become the blood thirsty savages that we're supposed to be fighting against. I don't have much reservation or remorse about killin' folks that need killin'. I just don't think I'd take actual pleasure in it. But then again, I'm admittedly a Boy Scout.
Fair point. I just don't want us to become the blood thirsty savages that we're supposed to be fighting against. I don't have much reservation or remorse about killin' folks that need killin'. I just don't think I'd take actual pleasure in it. But then again, I'm admittedly a Boy Scout.
The concern that you become that which you're fighting against is a legit concern.
Why is that "f'ed up"? Our WW2 vets did it religiously, put heads on spikes, took war trophies, cut out gold teeth, etc. Our Vietnam Vets continued this, sometimes making body part jewelry. What makes our GWOT vets "f'ed up" when it's something as old as war itself?
Are you a savage, or are you a professional? WW2 and Vietnam vets were draftees, young, and minimally trained. SOF and GWOT vets aren't. Pics are one thing; mutilation is another. I know it's all a gray area and a slippery slope.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-26-19, 13:55
Are you a savage, or are you a professional? WW2 and Vietnam vets were draftees, young, and minimally trained. SOF and GWOT vets aren't. Pics are one thing; mutilation is another. I know it's all a gray area and a slippery slope.
Are you implying that the Marines in the pacific, fighting the Japanese, were savages and not professionals?
Are you implying that the Marines in the pacific, fighting the Japanese, were savages and not professionals?
I am implying that war will make one do funny things (awful things), but the rate of those things were higher in those wars because they were basically and minimally trained personnel. I would also believe that these acts were the exception and not the rule. But to say "well, it's always been done; it's OK, that's war" does a YUGE disservice to the professional military who say "this ain't OK."
Are you implying that the Marines in the pacific, fighting the Japanese, were savages and not professionals?
I don't wanna sound morally ambiguous, but it seems relative to me. We mutilated some dead, etc, but nothing we did even came close to what the Japanese did en mass. That we were able to remain as civilized as we did under such conditions speaks volumes of the US fighting man. When we hear about what the Germans, the Russians, and the Japanese did compared to anything the allies did, it's not even close. Dresden was truly horrific and I'd say about the worst thing the allies did I can think of, and it makes what the other countries did look like junior high level stuff, and even then, it was hotly debated afterward. If anything, I have been more concerned how we treated our own soldiers after the wars.
Are you implying that the Marines in the pacific, fighting the Japanese, were savages and not professionals?
Very different times, in a very different "total war" we fought for our existence.
Not these wars we choose to fight against (on the absolute scale) a bunch of bush leaguers we could crush in a week, if we fought them WW2 style.
Oh my, I looked at the picture, the shock the horror of it. How could they.
Nope not really, in my view no big deal.
I am a sniper, will always be a sniper. My job is simple if you take away the intel part of it, I kill bad guys before they can murder the good guys. I took photos when I could . I sure as hell kept detailed notes in my log.
I have a friend that spent the whole time the USSR was in A-stan as a sniper . I have gone through his log books slowly page by page to learn, for he is a grand master.
I don't know if it is the difference in our religions, but I got ZERO problem killing bad guys. I wear my sniper pin on my suits. My mother the MD, used to introduce me as her son the oncologist. Then with a smile she would tell them I am so proud of the cancer my son has removed from this world.
We are at war with barbarians, we want to put rules to the war. For we are stupid and arrogant. Sun Tzu said if you don't know your enemy and you don't know yourself you will suffer defeat.
I submit, that this trial and this thread is prima faca evidence we fall into that category of people destine to lose wars. We think putting lawyers in uniforms means they are warriors, nope they are still weak individuals that hide behind books and laws that will not save the west.
War is not about being nice. Our leaders are fools that think by avoiding civilian deaths our enemies will look up to us. Sorry the opposite is true, having said that I am not saying machine gun down women and children for no reason. But I am saying Tokyo, Dresden, and the use of two bombs was moral.
I see nothing immoral with the photo.
You take some men, and to forge them over time to become the finest men on the planet, Special Ops. Let them do the job, if you are a lawyer, a wimp, or a liberal and can't be around the best men. That is ok, just shut the hell up about things you don't understand.
CAG, Dev Group, Rangers, SAS, GSG9, Yamam, Metkal, etc., I count men from these units among my friends. That I should be so blessed, to have such friends, to be truthful I have no words in any of the languages I speak to try and communicate what it means. But to be called brother by these men, and to have them on numerous times as we go through life, tell me Yoni your a good man.
Just leaves me speechless.
Can anyone point to any evolutionary changes or improvements in the human race regarding combat since WWII? I'm curious because ostensibly, we don't send troops today into combat because the people we expect them to kill are somehow better than the Germans or Japanese were then. So I'm not exactly sure where the expected changes in human behavior are supposed to come from?
I get that we have an entire society which somehow believes it's better or more evolved than we were 30, 50 or 70 years ago, but I'm not seeing it. Human savagery today is no more or less severe or prevalent than it was 10 years ago, 100 years ago or 1,000 years ago. All I see is a naivety about what happens to the human mind in combat. That and how much command and control you really have over the horrors of war.
If you don't want coup counted on the enemy by our warfighters, the solution is simple. Don't send them to war.
People have been killing each others since the beginning of time and since the invention of camera and photography have been taking souvenir pictures of their kills. This is not the first nor the last.
Here is a bunch of pictures of war trophies in the past wars:
https://www.google.com/search?q=viet+cong+head+cut+off&rlz=1C1CAFC_enUS865US865&sxsrf=ACYBGNRTOc-lKPhnagYYGBB0rwkhWezH-A:1574802467658&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=tTUQxk80AMrrDM%253A%252CydZP6AEH3-RZ3M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQTLvPgGzFaUOzIh7gmVG5MTqzU7A&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjM7LOt5IjmAhVyg-AKHZZLAPwQ9QEwAHoECAkQBg#imgrc=S_ChhlMWnpom-M:&vet=1
The snow flakes need to get over it.
Oh my, I looked at the picture, the shock the horror of it. How could they.
Nope not really, in my view no big deal.
I am a sniper, will always be a sniper. My job is simple if you take away the intel part of it, I kill bad guys before they can murder the good guys. I took photos when I could . I sure as hell kept detailed notes in my log.
I have a friend that spent the whole time the USSR was in A-stan as a sniper . I have gone through his log books slowly page by page to learn, for he is a grand master.
I don't know if it is the difference in our religions, but I got ZERO problem killing bad guys. I wear my sniper pin on my suits. My mother the MD, used to introduce me as her son the oncologist. Then with a smile she would tell them I am so proud of the cancer my son has removed from this world.
We are at war with barbarians, we want to put rules to the war. For we are stupid and arrogant. Sun Tzu said if you don't know your enemy and you don't know yourself you will suffer defeat.
I submit, that this trial and this thread is prima faca evidence we fall into that category of people destine to lose wars. We think putting lawyers in uniforms means they are warriors, nope they are still weak individuals that hide behind books and laws that will not save the west.
War is not about being nice. Our leaders are fools that think by avoiding civilian deaths our enemies will look up to us. Sorry the opposite is true, having said that I am not saying machine gun down women and children for no reason. But I am saying Tokyo, Dresden, and the use of two bombs was moral.
I see nothing immoral with the photo.
You take some men, and to forge them over time to become the finest men on the planet, Special Ops. Let them do the job, if you are a lawyer, a wimp, or a liberal and can't be around the best men. That is ok, just shut the hell up about things you don't understand.
CAG, Dev Group, Rangers, SAS, GSG9, Yamam, Metkal, etc., I count men from these units among my friends. That I should be so blessed, to have such friends, to be truthful I have no words in any of the languages I speak to try and communicate what it means. But to be called brother by these men, and to have them on numerous times as we go through life, tell me Yoni your a good man.
Just leaves me speechless.
Best thing I have read in a long, long time.
Tell that to BG Sinclair who was force retired as a Lot Col.
Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk
No problem. BG Sinclair, you took a plea deal because you are a sexual predator who abused your subordinates. You were not reduced to Lt Col as the result of a court-martial sentence. You were administratively reduced when you retired. See AR 15-80. But, you probably didn't need me to tell you that because you were there.
No problem. BG Sinclair, you took a plea deal because you are a sexual predator who abused your subordinates. You were not reduced to Lt Col as the result of a court-martial sentence. You were administratively reduced when you retired. See AR 15-80. But, you probably didn't need me to tell you that because you were there.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tenor.com%2Fimages%2F80ffd3614a3a252b8115e48364d6e48f%2Ftenor.gif&f=1&nofb=1
ramairthree
11-26-19, 20:25
Are you a savage, or are you a professional? WW2 and Vietnam vets were draftees, young, and minimally trained. SOF and GWOT vets aren't. Pics are one thing; mutilation is another. I know it's all a gray area and a slippery slope.
WW2, Korea, and VN all had volunteer personnel that double and triple volunteered for training for some hardcore outfits.
Showing off heads, putting heads on spikes, scalping, impalements, crucifixions, ear necklaces, etc. have been around forever.
A handful of decades of human history frowning upon it in a few select countries is an exception.
King David, the man that wrote most of the Psalms, gave his soon to be father in law King Saul for an engagement party a large number 200 or 300 foreskins from Philistines he had killed.
So I can't get too bent out of shape by some photos or Special Ops lads killing bad guys.
OH58D said it so well "I ran an Army aerial taxi service on occasion for Rangers/Delta between 1983-1994. If any of you have spent time around Special Operations personnel, they are a cliquish bunch, quiet when around outsiders, and first class killers. This kind of business is not pretty, nor is it based on ethics and tight rules of engagement. I've seen some of these operators come back from a mission, covered in blood, and it wasn't their own. "
I will always remember one night after a hard cross training with some wonderful lads from the US Army, the bon fire was burning, great meat on the grills, fantastic scotch was flowing as a river, cigars smoke was in the air. I told the story how as a young student in a senior level cultural Anthropology final, when we turned the test papers over it contained 1 question. Discuss the ramifications of the insertion of brass into the Ashanti culture. My friend who had skipped the whole week that class had discussed this, and refused to review it during our all night cram review, said one word that started with F, and turned his test in and walked out.
However that night in Israel, after I told the story, several of the lads from the USA popped up and we had a great couple of hours having an in depth knowledgeable discussion on the subject matter.
Some of the smartest people around.
I sat with a good friends a husband and wife that I knew from my time as a deputy in the USA, they told me of their only child. A kid I knew that he had grown up, was in med school and 9-11 happened. He dropped out of Med school and became a green beret. They told me how after his death in A-stan, they were adopted by the SF community. How these men had opened their hearts year after year, how they told stories of their son. A son that grew up to know how to get great coffee, cigars and booze for his team mates in the middle of no wear A-stan.
Let Special Ops soldiers, do their job, Eff the lawyers and regular military, who bottom line don't have what it takes. Let's be grown up enough, to understand the E5 that works in supply, the general or admiral, or O6 in the regular military, or the operators all have a job to do. But keep the special ops, out of the regular mix.
Coal Dragger
11-27-19, 02:20
That's a lot of dick touching by King David.
Just saying....
That's a lot of dick touching by King David.
Just saying....
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to comment on that aspect of it.
King David, the man that wrote most of the Psalms, gave his soon to be father in law King Saul for an engagement party a large number 200 or 300 foreskins from Philistines he had killed.
So I can't get too bent out of shape by some photos or Special Ops lads killing bad guys.
OH58D said it so well "I ran an Army aerial taxi service on occasion for Rangers/Delta between 1983-1994. If any of you have spent time around Special Operations personnel, they are a cliquish bunch, quiet when around outsiders, and first class killers. This kind of business is not pretty, nor is it based on ethics and tight rules of engagement. I've seen some of these operators come back from a mission, covered in blood, and it wasn't their own. "
I will always remember one night after a hard cross training with some wonderful lads from the US Army, the bon fire was burning, great meat on the grills, fantastic scotch was flowing as a river, cigars smoke was in the air. I told the story how as a young student in a senior level cultural Anthropology final, when we turned the test papers over it contained 1 question. Discuss the ramifications of the insertion of brass into the Ashanti culture. My friend who had skipped the whole week that class had discussed this, and refused to review it during our all night cram review, said one word that started with F, and turned his test in and walked out.
However that night in Israel, after I told the story, several of the lads from the USA popped up and we had a great couple of hours having an in depth knowledgeable discussion on the subject matter.
Some of the smartest people around.
I sat with a good friends a husband and wife that I knew from my time as a deputy in the USA, they told me of their only child. A kid I knew that he had grown up, was in med school and 9-11 happened. He dropped out of Med school and became a green beret. They told me how after his death in A-stan, they were adopted by the SF community. How these men had opened their hearts year after year, how they told stories of their son. A son that grew up to know how to get great coffee, cigars and booze for his team mates in the middle of no wear A-stan.
Let Special Ops soldiers, do their job, Eff the lawyers and regular military, who bottom line don't have what it takes. Let's be grown up enough, to understand the E5 that works in supply, the general or admiral, or O6 in the regular military, or the operators all have a job to do. But keep the special ops, out of the regular mix.
So I was in the "spec ops community," but somehow missed out on mutilation. Did I miss out? Am I less a warrior because I didn't rape a civilian? Or chop a head off? Or dangle ears on a necklace? Now I wonder....
Or maybe I just had higher standards and a strong sense of right and wrong. But oddly enough, I don't know anyone who did any of these things, either.
I have killed bad guys; some of whom whose blood was on ME (gasp! the horror!).
My point is and has been, if Gallagher was singled out and special consideration made, then that was/is wrong. Kanking a WD is no bueno for that. But if he knowingly violated standards, then so be it. Let him pay the price. Or, just change the standard and apply it to everyone.
You claim to be a sniper, so I am sure you will recall when the Marines got into some hot water for their SS logo appearing the same as the Nazi SS symbol. I was around for that, and my friend had the SS tat (as did several of them). Many including my friend were unduly ostracized for that and had career issues over the perception of promoting nazi/white supremacy. So no one more than I appreciates the shadow world and the appearance of impropriety and the road of good intentions. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it makes it what it is.
I don't remember endorsing mutilation and for sure not rape. I think I remember very vaguely the SS issue, I don't think someone should have career issues for that.
I admit taking photos to go in my log book, that I used for educational purposes my own and students when I taught classes. I also collected keffiyehs, should I be demoted and lose my pension for this. It wouldn't matter my divorced daughter gets the money from the pension, because her ex is a dead beat. My company more than makes up in the monetary world.
But in closing I will try and clarify, I think Special Ops due to the missions need to be cut a lot more slack than they currently are.
Coal Dragger
11-27-19, 13:21
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to comment on that aspect of it.
Man law. Dick touching, excessive meat gazing etc. must be called out.
Adrenaline_6
11-27-19, 13:28
Man law. Dick touching, excessive meat gazing etc. must be called out.
What if he said "No homo"?
Coal Dragger
11-27-19, 13:53
Then it is acceptable to a point.
Man law. Dick touching, excessive meat gazing etc. must be called out.
I have a few things still on my bucket list, and thank G-D none of that is on it and will never be on it.
Coal Dragger
11-27-19, 14:28
Well I would hope not.
ramairthree
11-27-19, 15:09
So I was in the "spec ops community," but somehow missed out on mutilation. Did I miss out? Am I less a warrior because I didn't rape a civilian? Or chop a head off? Or dangle ears on a necklace? Now I wonder....
Or maybe I just had higher standards and a strong sense of right and wrong. But oddly enough, I don't know anyone who did any of these things, either.
I have killed bad guys; some of whom whose blood was on ME (gasp! the horror!).
My point is and has been, if Gallagher was singled out and special consideration made, then that was/is wrong. Kanking a WD is no bueno for that. But if he knowingly violated standards, then so be it. Let him pay the price. Or, just change the standard and apply it to everyone.
You claim to be a sniper, so I am sure you will recall when the Marines got into some hot water for their SS logo appearing the same as the Nazi SS symbol. I was around for that, and my friend had the SS tat (as did several of them). Many including my friend were unduly ostracized for that and had career issues over the perception of promoting nazi/white supremacy. So no one more than I appreciates the shadow world and the appearance of impropriety and the road of good intentions. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it makes it what it is.
For clarity,
I am not proposing running around mutilating bodies and raping women and looting spoils of war,
Just pointing out that frowning on these behaviors is a pretty recent, modern concept in terms of human history,
And the races/cultures/countries serious about adhering to these modern concepts is in the minority.
Although, if I was to get a lifetime of free gas and early picks on a stable of concubines I would be willing to suit back up and drop into Venezuela and rip out some enemy combatant hearts or something..
Adrenaline_6
11-27-19, 15:16
Well I would hope not.
What if he said "No homo?"
Coal Dragger
11-27-19, 16:31
See that is a protection against unavoidable or unplanned events. He was talking about a bucket list or planned goals in life. If the event is planned “no homo” protection does not apply.
Coal Dragger
11-27-19, 16:33
For clarity,
I am not proposing running around mutilating bodies and raping women and looting spoils of war,
Just pointing out that frowning on these behaviors is a pretty recent, modern concept in terms of human history,
And the races/cultures/countries serious about adhering to these modern concepts is in the minority.
Although, if I was to get a lifetime of free gas and early picks on a stable of concubines I would be willing to suit back up and drop into Venezuela and rip out some enemy combatant hearts or something..
Well I do like free fuel and hot chicks. I doubt the Corps wants a now 40 year old enlisted grunt back, but I’d sign up if I could get free fuel for life and some hot chicks.
That's enough vulgarity and sexual innuendo, thanks.
Averageman
11-28-19, 04:39
I was reading that the Secretary of the Navy was on his way out of the door for cost overuns when he decided to do Gallagher on his way out.
OH58D and Yoni bring up valid points, especially about hypocrites. Right, wrong, it doesn't matter. If someone takes a photograph of you or you participate in an interview with the media, the R.E.M.F.s and hypocrites will be the first in line to burn you.
Averageman
11-30-19, 11:58
OH58D and Yoni bring up valid points, especially about hypocrites. Right, wrong, it doesn't matter. If someone takes a photograph of you or you participate in an interview with the media, the R.E.M.F.s and hypocrites will be the first in line to burn you.
Never leave yourself vulnerable.
The only thing worse than working with a screw-up, is working with a screw-up that gets angry with you and holds a grudge. Giving this kind of an individual a "Break" means you're now either fat dumb and happy and wont see it coming, or your not doing what you have to do because your watching your 6 all the time. Not everyone is like this, some people you can correct, or they will accept some mutually shared hardship.
Others will sharpen their knives.
I believe Gallagher got, "got" from within his own small unit. There were likely some hurt "feelings" along the way.
You know what. I’m not worried what other people do. But some folks really do need Jesus amd I am one of them
I believe Gallagher got, "got" from within his own small unit. There were likely some hurt "feelings" along the way.
I don't believe we'll ever actually know.
We've all known guys who present as squared away, but beneath the surface.....
Likewise, we've all known guys who for some reason go after someone.....
Like I said, I doubt we'll ever really know.
I agree with that. Sounds like witnesses in his favor were not allowed to testify. Everyone else was granted immunity except him. And other procedural irregularities. Likely the truth will never come out. Makes me wonder though that if the prosecution had to manipulate things so much to get anything on him, was there really much to begin with?
And singling him out for the photo when several other guys were in them is ludicrous. That is so petty they should be ashamed to be in command. Reprimand him if you want but demotion or kicking out? If that was the standard then the whole unit and the officers should be booted as well.
WW2, Korea, and VN all had volunteer personnel that double and triple volunteered for training for some hardcore outfits.
Showing off heads, putting heads on spikes, scalping, impalements, crucifixions, ear necklaces, etc. have been around forever.
A handful of decades of human history frowning upon it in a few select countries is an exception.
Raping, pillaging, and brutal torture are part of our military history too. That doesn’t mean that any of those things are OK today in the evolved society that we think we are, or that we should shrug them off with a wink and a pardon. We should continue to strive to be better than we were, better than we are, and I can’t blame the military for setting a standard of professionalism that reflects that aspiration.
Seriously do you guys even remember who we are fighting? You know the guys making videos cutting off heads of live prisoners with dull knives, putting POW's in steel cages dousing with gas and setting them on fire. And this guy deserves to be framed for murder and when that doesn't work to be the only one in a group photo with a dead tango punished because we are "better than that". Yeah I ain't buying it. Our warfighters have been fighting a dirty nasty war with barbarians for almost 20 years, now it appears some in the Navy are on a mission to rein them in by making an example out of one on trumped up charges. Well mission failed thanks to POTUS, like Kurt S wrote the other day the Navy should refocus on their core responsibility which is driving ships around the ocean without running into other ships.
Seriously do you guys even remember who we are fighting? You know the guys making videos cutting off heads of live prisoners with dull knives, putting POW's in steel cages dousing with gas and setting them on fire. And this guy deserves to be framed for murder and when that doesn't work to be the only one in a group photo with a dead tango punished because we are "better than that". Yeah I ain't buying it. Our warfighters have been fighting a dirty nasty war with barbarians for almost 20 years, now it appears some in the Navy are on a mission to rein them in by making an example out of one on trumped up charges. Well mission failed thanks to POTUS, like Kurt S wrote the other day the Navy should refocus on their core responsibility which is driving ships around the ocean without running into other ships.
Relative to professionalism, are you saying that rape/pillage/torture etc is OK because these particular enemies are bad people?
ETA: I separate that question from the question as to whether or not Chief Gallagher was railroaded by a Navy bureaucracy.
..
Relative to professionalism, are you saying that rape/pillage/torture etc is OK because these particular enemies are bad people?
ETA: I separate that question from the question as to whether or not Chief Gallagher was railroaded by a Navy bureaucracy.
..
I was in the Army for 22 years and I never saw any rape/pillage/torture, etc. I saw aggressive killing and participated in it. I have looked at the Navy Seal unit group photo with Gallagher, and it is a big nothing. Most of the enemy combatants I killed weren't even intact or recognizable as some kind of human after death. Of course I was using an aerial platform of mini-guns and rockets, and later laser guided munitions. Not much remained when I was finished, nor did I want to touch it or pose with it even if given the chance....which was almost always non-existent. For me it was go in, do the mission and leave. I would get to look at recorded gun camera footage before it was passed up the chain of command to see how good I was, and we did take pride in our efficiency in killing.
If military personnel do take the time for after action souvenir photos, it may look bad for a civilian, but for the killers who are doing their job up close and personal, it's a different mentality. Sometimes it's a real world examination of what those on gun forums use ballistic gel for. Killing is a process. I've watched a show called Forged in Fire, and they use mannequins made of ballistic gel, fake bones and fake blood to be slashed and stabbed. Describing the bladed weapon: "It Will Kill". Soldiers don't get fake dummies to practice on; they get real humans. It's the real world, not some Mother Goose story for kids.
Perhaps Gallagher wouldn't have gone before the Man if the photo had showed all team members with their heads bowed, praying over the recently dispatched combatant? Prayers to send that devil to Perdition's Flames where he was the chief attraction for a while until replaced by another.
I was in the Army for 22 years and I never saw any rape/pillage/torture, etc. I saw aggressive killing and participated in it. I have looked at the Navy Seal unit group photo with Gallagher, and it is a big nothing. Most of the enemy combatants I killed weren't even intact or recognizable as some kind of human after death. Of course I was using an aerial platform of mini-guns and rockets, and later laser guided munitions. Not much remained when I was finished, nor did I want to touch it or pose with it even if given the chance....which was almost always non-existent. For me it was go in, do the mission and leave. I would get to look at recorded gun camera footage before it was passed up the chain of command to see how good I was, and we did take pride in our efficiency in killing.
If military personnel do take the time for after action souvenir photos, it may look bad for a civilian, but for the killers who are doing their job up close and personal, it's a different mentality. Sometimes it's a real world examination of what those on gun forums use ballistic gel for. Killing is a process. I've watched a show called Forged in Fire, and they use mannequins made of ballistic gel, fake bones and fake blood to be slashed and stabbed. Describing the bladed weapon: "It Will Kill". Soldiers don't get fake dummies to practice on; they get real humans. It's the real world, not some Mother Goose story for kids.
Perhaps Gallagher wouldn't have gone before the Man if the photo had showed all team members with their heads bowed, praying over the recently dispatched combatant? Prayers to send that devil to Perdition's Flames where he was the chief attraction for a while until replaced by another.
I make a distinction between "aggressive killing" as a means to a military objective and consequence of battle, and sticking a knife into a wounded and unconscious enemy combatant (for example). I confess that I do have a problem with the concept that that might be OK just because that enemy himself is an inhuman barbarian.
SeriousStudent
12-01-19, 20:34
I was in the Army for 22 years and I never saw any rape/pillage/torture, etc. I saw aggressive killing and participated in it. I have looked at the Navy Seal unit group photo with Gallagher, and it is a big nothing. Most of the enemy combatants I killed weren't even intact or recognizable as some kind of human after death. Of course I was using an aerial platform of mini-guns and rockets, and later laser guided munitions. Not much remained when I was finished, nor did I want to touch it or pose with it even if given the chance....which was almost always non-existent. For me it was go in, do the mission and leave. I would get to look at recorded gun camera footage before it was passed up the chain of command to see how good I was, and we did take pride in our efficiency in killing.
If military personnel do take the time for after action souvenir photos, it may look bad for a civilian, but for the killers who are doing their job up close and personal, it's a different mentality. Sometimes it's a real world examination of what those on gun forums use ballistic gel for. Killing is a process. I've watched a show called Forged in Fire, and they use mannequins made of ballistic gel, fake bones and fake blood to be slashed and stabbed. Describing the bladed weapon: "It Will Kill". Soldiers don't get fake dummies to practice on; they get real humans. It's the real world, not some Mother Goose story for kids.
Perhaps Gallagher wouldn't have gone before the Man if the photo had showed all team members with their heads bowed, praying over the recently dispatched combatant? Prayers to send that devil to Perdition's Flames where he was the chief attraction for a while until replaced by another.
Very well said.
I saw the photo in question, and am kind of puzzled why that was charged as an offense.
I make a distinction between "aggressive killing" as a means to a military objective and consequence of battle, and sticking a knife into a wounded and unconscious enemy combatant (for example). I confess that I do have a problem with the concept that that might be OK just because that enemy himself is an inhuman barbarian.
And you’re speaking as a civilian medical practitioner (if my M4C memory serves me correctly yes?) not a professional gun carrier let alone a true front line military face shooty type (SEAL drama aside) who’s most basic function is to end life.
This whole charade is stupid.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Relative to professionalism, are you saying that rape/pillage/torture etc is OK because these particular enemies are bad people?
ETA: I separate that question from the question as to whether or not Chief Gallagher was railroaded by a Navy bureaucracy.
..
No I am not advocating rape/pillage/torture but I don't have a problem with as OH58D so eloquently put it aggressive killing, or for that matter mercy killing as to the case in question. Look at the facts of what happened, the terrorist in question was gravely wounded, he was suffering and not going to survive, there is no dust off for him I assume the team needed to CM hence the medic blocking the breathing tube until he expired.
I make a distinction between "aggressive killing" as a means to a military objective and consequence of battle, and sticking a knife into a wounded and unconscious enemy combatant (for example). I confess that I do have a problem with the concept that that might be OK just because that enemy himself is an inhuman barbarian.
Those of us who were raised in a Christian Church environment have had to come to grips with the morality and ethics of killing in war. You do realize I have thought about this sort of thing so many times that it's painful. When you're killing, do you kill just what is required or do you go that little extra to guarantee mission success without any additional chance of problems? Do I kill these right at hand, and what about those approaching who MAY be an issue? In the civilian environment, it's called being proactive. In places like Mogadishu, if you're a woman, kid or even a teenager, and it looks like you're armed, you get taken out - even if they're not pointing the weapon at you.
Since we're talking about Gallagher, what about the Trump release of 1LT Clint Allen Lorance, a soldier who worked his way up thru the ranks and his career basically ended because he was proactive in his killing of a perceived threat in Afghanistan. I won't rehash his story but it's worth a look for anyone studying the Gallagher mess.
I kind of think it might do some good to look at this perspective:
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster (for) when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”― Friedrich Nietzsche
IF Gallagher did what he was accused of versus what he was convicted and pardoned of and you would still want to defend him, well, you probably need some oil on the jeweled bearing of your moral compass.
I have ZERO problem with Special ops, killing wounded terrorist. This is not a war between nation states. You engage in action, at the end of the fight you have a couple of low level terrorist that have no value from an intelligence stand point what do you do with them?
Give them first aid and save them. What for? They are followers of true Islam, the Islam of Mohamed, which is spreading Islam with violence.
Send them to GitMo for ever, what for to cost the tax payers money?
I kind of think it might do some good to look at this perspective:
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster (for) when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”― Friedrich Nietzsche
IF Gallagher did what he was accused of versus what he was convicted and pardoned of and you would still want to defend him, well, you probably need some oil on the jeweled bearing of your moral compass.
That's what some of us have to deal with. Where is the morality and ethics in warfare? This is not a recent issue. In WW2, there were incidents of American troops killing German troops who were surrendering, but there were also incidents of Germans doing the same thing. The victors get to hold war crimes trials - the losers don't.
I have interacted with Special Operations members after I retired - some have risen to higher levels in the Army, some went into private industry. Some of them have had issues with their marriages, alcoholism and just life in general. A lot of them are doing just fine.
Maybe I'm not the one to discuss these kinds of issues because I was usually above the real hard and nasty conditions, providing CAS and a means for infil and exfil. A lot of us have come to the conclusion that in warfare, morality and ethics get temporarily suspended for a lot of it, but not all of it. ROE only works perfectly when things are going according to plan - after that things get kind of fluid.
Those of us who were raised in a Christian Church environment have had to come to grips with the morality and ethics of killing in war. You do realize I have thought about this sort of thing so many times that it's painful. When you're killing, do you kill just what is required or do you go that little extra to guarantee mission success without any additional chance of problems? Do I kill these right at hand, and what about those approaching who MAY be an issue? In the civilian environment, it's called being proactive. In places like Mogadishu, if you're a woman, kid or even a teenager, and it looks like you're armed, you get taken out - even if they're not pointing the weapon at you.
Since we're talking about Gallagher, what about the Trump release of 1LT Clint Allen Lorance, a soldier who worked his way up thru the ranks and his career basically ended because he was proactive in his killing of a perceived threat in Afghanistan. I won't rehash his story but it's worth a look for anyone studying the Gallagher mess.
As a Christian, I do not have a problem with reconciling my behavior and faith with killing booger-eaters in war. I totally agree with your other post, last post, regarding slippery slope of ethics and morality in war. You are also right in how people cope, regardless if one is a Ranger-beret-recon-SEAL or an E1 in whatever infantry unit, cover a whole span and host of effects.
Averageman
12-02-19, 10:22
Lots of MSM drama about how this move concerning both Ed Gallagher and the Sec. of the Navy has hurt POTUS Trump's credibility with the Pentagon.
I have to tell you, I don't believe that to be so. Maybe 10% of O-6 and above have anything to worry about.
The rest very likely see this for what it is. Is the Sec of the Navy, who doesn't have the capacity to bring in ships on time and under budget have the overwhelming majority support of the Navy and the Pentagon?
Of some of what has been written is true, going after Gallagher was a puffed out chest, dick move of a guy wanting to throw some weight around the Bosses office before being told to clear out his desk.
If guys like that don't irritate the living hell out of you, you've never worked for one.
I kind of think it might do some good to look at this perspective:
“He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster (for) when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you”― Friedrich Nietzsche
IF Gallagher did what he was accused of versus what he was convicted and pardoned of and you would still want to defend him, well, you probably need some oil on the jeweled bearing of your moral compass.
In theory, IF he did what he was accused of I would not support it or him. Having worked directly with a Team for 4 months many moons ago, and seeing what I see coming from the Teams today, you cannot call me an apologist.
However, I prefer to deal in practice, not theory. In practice, the Navy failed to prove it's case. He was found not guilty and unless someone comes up with verified, un-doctored video proof he did it, it's over. "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on."
The Navy as an institution did a big No-No. Rather than accept it and move on when it backfired on them, they doubled down. Their credibility with me is gone. They don't get to play the aggrieved party or blame Trump. They own the disgrace they made all to themselves. :(
Diamondback
12-02-19, 21:04
In theory, IF he did what he was accused of I would not support it or him. Having worked directly with a Team for 4 months many moons ago, and seeing what I see coming from the Teams today, you cannot call me an apologist.
However, I prefer to deal in practice, not theory. In practice, the Navy failed to prove it's case. He was found not guilty and unless someone comes up with verified, un-doctored video proof he did it, it's over. "The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on."
The Navy as an institution did a big No-No. Rather than accept it and move on when it backfired on them, they doubled down. Their credibility with me is gone. They don't get to play the aggrieved party or blame Trump. They own the disgrace they made all to themselves. :(
Don't forget the in practice Prosecutorial Misconduct like bugging the defense counsel. I believe the legal term is "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree," and those JAG lawyers should be facing both Court-Martial of their own and Disbarment for their egregious violation of professional ethics in their Ahabesque pursuit of their chosen white whale. Even IF Gallagher were guilty, there are few greater menaces to society than when those tasked with enforcing the laws openly flout them themselves.
[QUOTE=Diamondback;2790835]Don't forget the in practice Prosecutorial Misconduct like bugging the defense counsel. I believe the legal term is "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree," and those JAG lawyers should be facing both Court-Martial of their own and Disbarment for their egregious violation of professional ethics in their Ahabesque pursuit of their chosen white whale. Even IF Gallagher were guilty, there are few greater menaces to society than when those tasked with enforcing the laws openly flout them themselves.[B]/QUOTE]
three years into this administration and we're now concerned with this?
No Uni-Hate I have been concerned about what the FBI/CIA/Deep State and Dems has been doing for the entire three years.
titsonritz
05-25-20, 01:55
My guys say With Gallagher being an old time frogman and he was in fact as stated in a post here harder than woodpecker lips some of the new SEALS that brought different ideas to what being a frogman meant thought he was tooooooo hard on them and this whole mess came from that.
Sounds like that is just what happened, upper brass hears the horror stories and decides the make and example out of him, once it starts it's like a pit-bull on a tire swing. Here is Eddie Gallagher giving his account...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZqQjYqR96E
When death it your profession, you can't let it effect you like it does Joe-Civie.
It's war and if the enemy had the chance, they'd chop off your balls, stuff them in your mouth before raping you and then beheading you on camera.
So you don't feel the least bit bad when you off them in highly 'unfair' ways.
Because f#$k them, thats why.
This right here ^
Averageman
05-25-20, 13:06
Sounds like that is just what happened, upper brass hears the horror stories and decides the make and example out of him, once it starts it's like a pit-bull on a tire swing. Here is Eddie Gallagher giving his account...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZqQjYqR96E
Gallagher was given a tough job and was very successful at it.
He took the worst Platoon and made it the best, that some of the folks resented that is not surprising.
As a retired Senior Noncom, I hated back stabbing BS, especially from folks who average/below average performers. This sounds a lot like that and look at the time, money and integrity wasted.
Diamondback
05-25-20, 16:19
Career suggestion: Trump should make him an Inspector General for Department of the Navy, with especially NCIS and JAG in his purview, and an open season to root out similar miscarriages of justice. It's a safe bet that the men ho tried to railroad him have used the same illegal, immoral and un-Constitutional dirty tricks against others along the way...
If I take what he said in the video and I basically do, because one of my employees and friends is friends with Eddie from the Teams. What happened to him, was a crime no different than the crap done against the president.
The powers that be have lot their way in this country, big time.
Big gov is far more guilty of actual crimes against Gallagher. But he's not politically correct so they wanted to put him away.
titsonritz
01-01-21, 23:27
If I take what he said in the video and I basically do, because one of my employees and friends is friends with Eddie from the Teams. What happened to him, was a crime no different than the crap done against the president.
The powers that be have lot their way in this country, big time.
Big gov is far more guilty of actual crimes against Gallagher.
Eddie Gallagher talks to Shawn Ryan and goes into some of the bullshit he and his family went through at the hands of the government. Wow, just wow. His wife and son, who was 8 at the time, talk about the day NCIS raided their house while Eddie was locked up. Some pure evil shit. Eddie claims two of his accusers have apologized to him for bearing false witness against him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceJCGboivPk
joedirt199
01-02-21, 13:29
I used to have lawyers forced to apologize to me, by judges, for enforcing judges rules in our courthouse. I would tell them to stick their apology up their ass for two reasons: a forced apology means nothing and if you don't act like a dick and belittle someone for doing their job, then there is no need for the apology in the first place. Guess that's why I got pulled from courthouse security and put in transport. Seen a lot of good people get ruined by ladder climbers.
I said way back in the beginning of this thing, if he's guilty he needs to be fried, if he's innocent, he's be exonerated. I'm glad to see all of these things coming to light and his name getting cleared.
Averageman
01-02-21, 17:52
I said way back in the beginning of this thing, if he's guilty he needs to be fried, if he's innocent, he's be exonerated. I'm glad to see all of these things coming to light and his name getting cleared.
Yeah, but when they force you out on their terms, not yours how does being exonerated work?
I had a troublesome Soldier one time try and hit me in the face with a shovel he was swinging like an axe. He didn't want to secure the shovel in the sponson box. I knocked him on his butt and gave him the shovel back and told him again to secure it. The second time he took another swing and again got put in the dirt.
End of the day, I took an Art-15, he walked.
Btw this was a Soldier who was being discharged before we were deploying for beating his Wife with a 2x4 until he broke her arm. Because we were deploying all of that got erased. He ETS'ed with an honorable.
Then they found his girlfriend dead under an overpass a week or so after his discharge.
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