View Full Version : Since nobody else has done it yet...pics of the 4th gen Glock:
John_Wayne777
11-12-08, 08:16
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/legacy38/firearms/glocknewgrip-1.jpg
My 2 cents:
This is what happens when you believe your own advertising.
I thought it was going to be an M&P photoshopped into the ad! :p
Jay Cunningham
11-12-08, 08:25
They just don't get it.
:(
BTW, my experiment with grip tape has been a success... for me!
In addition to changing the grip texture I believe the Glocks could benefit most by replacing all the boxy angles with sexy, modern day curves :) The boxy look is sooooo 80's and needs to be freshened up. An interchangable backstrap similar to what CCF offers with its metal frames would be nice too!
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_2574.jpg
In addition to changing the grip texture I believe the Glocks could benefit most by replacing all the boxy angles with sexy, modern day curves :) The boxy look is sooooo 80's and needs to be freshened up. An interchangable backstrap similar to what CCF offers with its metal frames would be nice too!
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_2574.jpg
Oh my...what a BIG 'can' you have!
:D
Looks nice!
It's tough to tell from the photo but it looks like the back of the grip has been reduced like the G21SF.
I'll hold off on judging it until I actually see one in the store.
I would be happy if they just lessened the angle of the grip.
so.....what was the thought process when they made those curvy serrations on the slide?
so.....what was the thought process when they made those curvy serrations on the slide?
Low Drag! :confused: :p
Personally, I'm crossing my fingers and hoping this is a hoax. Glock has played with some much more radical improvements over the past year or so.
I actually did some Tap-Rack-Bang drills with a student's G19 just the other day. I never noticed the slide serrations being deficient. Was this really a complaint people (anyone, anyone?) had about the gun?
The slide serrations look fishy to me. The grip texture I think is plausible. But the slide serrations look photoshopped. The rear of the slide looks too perfectly square and flat. I won't believe it unless they officially announce it at next year's Shot Show.
Wow- this is like the "Magnum" compared to the current "Blue Steel".
...it's so beautiful :D
I'm sorry but I don't see any improvement in that pic.
In fact it looks like a step backwards to me becaused they ****ed up the slide serrations.:confused:
It that pic is for real I will never buy a 4th gen Glock.
I actually did some Tap-Rack-Bang drills with a student's G19 just the other day. I never noticed the slide serrations being deficient. Was this really a complaint people (anyone, anyone?) had about the gun?
If your hands get wet/greasy/bloody... it definitely is.
I remember one class where I had just Sun Screened up... I went to charge my glock and DAMN! It took me 3 tries to get the slide to cycle a live round in.
citizensoldier16
11-12-08, 13:05
Nothing on their website to suggest a change in design. As a Glock lover, at first I thought the "new" design looked nice and functional, but I won't know until I hold one. My only fear is that the grip will be less grippy than the GenIIIs. Jury is still out.
Medicine Calf
11-12-08, 13:12
It's a trap!
It has to be. Please.
If it is real and I had to buy a new Glock I'd still get it. Looks and subtle changes be damned. Its still essentially the pistol I like and prefer.
The slide serrations are nothing but tail fins on a '59 Caddy.
Style over substance.
I'll stick to my 2nd Gen Glocks.
Not the first time I have heard of this new Glock design so maybe it is for real. but I have heard of a lot of new Glock designs over the years that turned out to be untrue.
decodeddiesel
11-12-08, 16:46
In addition to changing the grip texture I believe the Glocks could benefit most by replacing all the boxy angles with sexy, modern day curves :) The boxy look is sooooo 80's and needs to be freshened up.
wahoo who did the work on your glock? It looks really nice!
Something must be wrong with my Glock(s), they all just keep going and going and going...:confused:
Can someone explain what the major complaints seem to be?
Mace
Mace,
i must have some of those retarded glocks too. Mine always work and just going and going.
I think they are just about perfect.
I think they are just about perfect.
What is perfect is a 2nd Gen 19, or better yet, 2nd Gen grip with a 3rd Gen light rail!
Singlestack Wonder
11-12-08, 20:26
Nothing on their website to suggest a change in design. As a Glock lover, at first I thought the "new" design looked nice and functional, but I won't know until I hold one. My only fear is that the grip will be less grippy than the GenIIIs. Jury is still out.
The G21SF has been out for two years and its still not on Glock's website...............
Can someone explain what the major complaints seem to be?
It's the FEELINGS/SPECIAL NEEDS crowd. :rolleyes:
"The glock doesn't feel right in my hand." Go get in touch with your feelings HOMO!
Until they build a pistol that feels like a C-cup titty in my hand, I'm not basing my weapon choice on feelings.
It's the FEELINGS/SPECIAL NEEDS crowd. :rolleyes:
"The glock doesn't feel right in my hand." Go get in touch with your feelings HOMO!
Until they build a pistol that feels like a C-cup titty in my hand, I'm not basing my weapon choice on feelings.
Dude, that's one of the funniest things I've read on a forum in a long, long time! :D
It's the FEELINGS/SPECIAL NEEDS crowd. :rolleyes:
"The glock doesn't feel right in my hand." Go get in touch with your feelings HOMO!
Until they build a pistol that feels like a C-cup titty in my hand, I'm not basing my weapon choice on feelings.
Bingo....I am not a M&P cake eater...:p
My Glocks RUN...
Mace
There's no reason to turn this into a Glock vs M&P thread. While demigod's comment was extremely funny it is only his opinion and we should be respectful of all opinions here on M4C.
If someone likes M&Ps or Sigs or H&K that's cool and it doesn't make them cake eaters. Remember they could just as easily call us cake eaters for liking Glocks.
I might drink the Glock Kool-Aid but I don't eat the Glock cake. :D
Just bust'n some chops...;)
...in good fun...
Mace
A GT member from overseas posted these pictures. This one shows the standard slide serrations:
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee64/oclvtrek/4thGenGlock.jpg
And this one shows a couple different grip textures:
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee64/oclvtrek/RTF02_RTF03.jpg
Like I said earlier I think I'll hold off all judgment until I see what actually hits the shelves.
Don Robison
11-14-08, 12:55
Until they build a pistol that feels like a C-cup titty in my hand, I'm not basing my weapon choice on feelings.
Dude, I just sucked copenhagen and coke light up my nose. That is sig line material.:D:D:D
decodeddiesel
11-14-08, 13:47
Until they build a pistol that feels like a C-cup titty in my hand, I'm not basing my weapon choice on feelings.
Haha! That cheered me up.
theJanitor
11-14-08, 14:03
That would be me.
I did take some pics of the proto-type Colt DAO, 10 round, 1911 type. ;) I guess that belongs in another thread.
Mike
i don't see that thread anywhere?!?:D
.357sigger
11-14-08, 16:08
It's the FEELINGS/SPECIAL NEEDS crowd. :rolleyes:
"The glock doesn't feel right in my hand." Go get in touch with your feelings HOMO!
Until they build a pistol that feels like a C-cup titty in my hand, I'm not basing my weapon choice on feelings.
That needs to be a bumper sticker or something....:p
HeadHunter
11-14-08, 18:26
I handled one (G22) at the Armorer's Course this week. The slide serrations on it were the standard ones, which I hate because my hand slips off them frequently. Serrations like the M&P would be a welcome improvement.
It was also equipped with the new "FBI" magazine catch. This catch is midway in length between the standard and extended catches, much like the Vickers catch from Tango Down.
The grip texture is a distinct improvement. It's much like built in skate tape.
Whether the grip is reduced or not was not apparent to me. I can't tell any difference between the SF and standard versions, so it could have been either.
Jay Cunningham
11-14-08, 18:28
Well, that is about 25%. Gaston needs to take it the remaining 75% to really bring his product into the 21st century.
Dude, I just sucked copenhagen and coke light up my nose. That is sig line material.:D:D:D
Yes it is and being the closet democrat that I am (I am totally kidding), I'm redistributing it to my signature.
It does look like the unpopular finger grooves were reduced in size - which I consider a plus.
The smaller/less aggressive slide serrations look like a step in the wrong direction.
Robb Jensen
11-17-08, 09:55
I can't believe that they didn't go with replaceable backstraps.
I guess I will be a stick in the mud change hater :) But I prefer (mildly) guns without the interchangeable back straps. In all of the several guns I ever bought with them I just left the mid-sized grips on anyway.
And change hater or not, I actually like the looks of the new grips and slide serrations.
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 15:33
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/legacy38/firearms/glocknewgrip-1.jpg
My 2 cents:
This is what happens when you believe your own advertising.
At least the light is not attached to the gun so it has a chance of being reliable. I like Glocks but they must be in 9mm for me to trust them.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 15:34
I can't believe that they didn't go with replaceable backstraps.
They are pretty stubborn. I agree with you. That would make a lot of sense.
Pat
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-17-08, 17:31
The grip texturing is a fine incremental improvement but those slide serrations appear to be changed just for looks--and the look terrible.
Jay Cunningham
11-17-08, 17:46
The grip texturing is a fine incremental improvement but those slide serrations appear to be changed just for looks--and the look terrible.
If they were going to go ahead and change the serrations may as well have put some up front as well.
Gaston... meh.
But I prefer (mildly) guns without the interchangeable back straps. In all of the several guns I ever bought with them I just left the mid-sized grips on anyway.
Well, if you have medium sized hands, that would sort of be expected, eh? :cool:
The idea behind the different grip sizes isn't so everyone can be different. It allows a gun to work for a broader range of people.
(as an aside, in my experience most people opt for a grip that is smaller than they should ... because they choose what feels comfortable when standing around holding the gun as opposed to choosing what allows them to shoot best)
(as an aside, in my experience most people opt for a grip that is smaller than they should ... because they choose what feels comfortable when standing around holding the gun as opposed to choosing what allows them to shoot best)
This should be otherwise titled "The Walther P99 Corollary" ;)
Well, if you have medium sized hands, that would sort of be expected, eh?
Except I have very small hands with very short fingers:cool: Maybe no grip is really small enough for my hands, so I have just gotten used to making do with whatever grip the gun has? I did muck around with a P99 I owned, trying out the small grip, and went back to the mid-sized one after a period.
Anyway, not really a rational reaction, but an emotionally driven old fogey one. Come to think of it I was very resistant to Glock's finger grooves when they came in and now I like them a lot:D I would rather not change the Glock at all, although I actually think the new stippling looks pretty good.
I like my Glock 30 just fine and I don't want a new one.
geezerbutler
11-21-08, 00:44
Right on da money with the response!
In the "C" , do you like 34's or 36's? ;)
An 'ol friend girl /girlfriend of mine had 36c's and I swear ....
Well, they were just really really nice.
Yeah that was a good laugh, but It still didn't make me laugh as hard as the guy's sig here on M4C about shooting the guy with a 9mm and the difference between that and a .45.
I can't remember the user name...maybe somebody will remember seeing it.
It's the FEELINGS/SPECIAL NEEDS crowd. :rolleyes:
"The glock doesn't feel right in my hand." Go get in touch with your feelings HOMO!
Until they build a pistol that feels like a C-cup titty in my hand, I'm not basing my weapon choice on feelings.
All right, guys. Let's stay on topic. Discussion of female anatomy belongs in another forum.
I don't know which other forum, but I'm sure it's not this one. :cool:
Thank you.
Except I have very small hands with very short fingers:cool: Maybe no grip is really small enough for my hands, so I have just gotten used to making do with whatever grip the gun has? I did muck around with a P99 I owned, trying out the small grip, and went back to the mid-sized one after a period.
Anyway, not really a rational reaction, but an emotionally driven old fogey one. Come to think of it I was very resistant to Glock's finger grooves when they came in and now I like them a lot:D I would rather not change the Glock at all, although I actually think the new stippling looks pretty good.
Sigma
Don't shoot the messenger. :cool:
olds442tyguy
11-21-08, 16:08
Why would they angle the slide serrations like that? The last thing you want in slide serrations is for them to force your grip rearward when it starts to slip. :confused:
I think I used a condom that had that same grip texture pattern to it as well. :mad:
Littlelebowski
11-21-08, 16:17
No ambidextrous anything. No different sized backstraps. Probably still ships with the cheesy plastic sights that wear off in a holster.
No real change.
Agreed with you on backstrap size, Todd. Shooting my M&P better now that I switched to the largest backstrap.
I was hoping for a safety.:cool:
Business_Casual
11-26-08, 22:28
I think he was joking about the safety.
Don't Glocks still sell like hotcakes? Don't they have the most departments/agencies/officers carrying or issued Glocks? Didn't they just win another contract with Pakistan? Don't all US State Protective Details carry Glocks? Blackwater? Etc. Etc.
What's my point? That Internet gun experts keep complaning that Glock won't listen to them about what changes they need to make to "improve" the pistol. Meanwhile they keep selling all the Glocks they can make without a problem. They don't need to make any changes. If you wan't those features you should buy an M&P, HK or a SIG. :)
M_P
I think he was joking about the safety.
Don't Glocks still sell like hotcakes? Don't they have the most departments/agencies/officers carrying or issued Glocks? Didn't they just win another contract with Pakistan? Don't all US State Protective Details carry Glocks? Blackwater? Etc. Etc.
What's my point? That Internet gun experts keep complaning that Glock won't listen to them about what changes they need to make to "improve" the pistol. Meanwhile they keep selling all the Glocks they can make without a problem. They don't need to make any changes. If you wan't those features you should buy an M&P, HK or a SIG. :)
M_P
+1, what he said.
I can't remember the user name...maybe somebody will remember seeing it.
Who ever might that be? ;)
The only things I'd like on a Glock are a Gen 2 front strap and slightly rounded grips (less... HK-ish). Otherwise I'm fine. Not quite sure what Glock as a company is thinking with their 4th-gen...
-B
Any idea when the 4th gen will be released or what we could expect to see as far as pricing?
Searcched the thread and didn't see it anywhere....sorry if I missed it
John_Wayne777
11-30-08, 21:53
I think he was joking about the safety.
Don't Glocks still sell like hotcakes? Don't they have the most departments/agencies/officers carrying or issued Glocks? Didn't they just win another contract with Pakistan? Don't all US State Protective Details carry Glocks? Blackwater? Etc. Etc.
What's my point? That Internet gun experts keep complaning that Glock won't listen to them about what changes they need to make to "improve" the pistol. Meanwhile they keep selling all the Glocks they can make without a problem. They don't need to make any changes. If you wan't those features you should buy an M&P, HK or a SIG. :)
M_P
I'm sure somebody in GM's board room said something very similar to that about 30 years ago....;)
Business_Casual
11-30-08, 22:35
A pistol isn't a car - isn't the 1911 essentially unchanged from, well, 1911?
M_P
John_Wayne777
12-01-08, 00:00
A pistol isn't a car - isn't the 1911 essentially unchanged from, well, 1911?
M_P
You mean other than the longer trigger, better sights, beavertail safety, extended thumb safety.....you know, all those minor improvements that have made the weapon fit a larger number of shooters better than the original design did?
Keeping the good parts of the 1911 while improving the aspects of the design that didn't fit a lot of shooters well is part of the reason why the 1911 is still around 100 years later.
If everybody had thought "That's how JMB designed it and if somebody wants something different, by gum let them buy a P38!!" odds are it wouldn't still be a popular design. The 1911 had some really good points that shooters wanted badly, and so they gave money to talented gunsmiths to improve the aspects of the weapon that needed some help. The end result was the King of Combat Handguns (credit: Ken Hackathorn) and a design that won't die many years after the point where it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense given the other options on the market.
It's true that handguns aren't cars...but a bad business strategy is still a bad business strategy whether you're talking cars, software, medical supplies, or handguns.
I think they said it last year too.
I'm sure somebody in GM's board room said something very similar to that about 30 years ago....;)
Which 1911 are you referring to? The 1911, 1911A1? Those made by Colt or the many other companies? 1911's of today use very different metallurgy, components, and manufacture from whatever you think the original was.
A pistol isn't a car - isn't the 1911 essentially unchanged from, well, 1911?
M_P
To me, the glock is ugly. It will always be ugly. Its grip fits my hand fine. Its slide serrations fit my hand fine. (after I learned the proper way to grip the slide)
Its reset is amazingly short in todays litegious world, and it goes BANG every time. Not nearly every time, BUT every time.
It runs perfectly on everything from blazer to Corbon +P+.
Its fat and ugly. Thats it. But it runs like a champ. Thats why people buy glocks. If you want "pride of ownership" buy a Sig.
If you want an "appliance" that just works. Buy a glock.
Don
Matt Edwards
12-12-08, 19:52
Early in the thread, a poster stated that "they don't get it."
Here are my thoughts on this. Of course it is just my opinion.
As shooters, we all would like what we would like. However, everyone knows full well how successful Glock has been around the world. Everyone knows that, personal feelings aside, it is a great pistol. For everyone out there that does no like them, there is at least one person that like it. Adjustable back straps would be a good idea, but does anyone think that it has hurt Glock in a significant way because they don't have them? Many talk about "ambidextrous". I appears to me that the Glock does well for either shooter. There are no major issues here, only perceived ones.
I think the fact of the matter is, like it or not, Glock DOES get it. I almost think they would be best served not to change anything. As mentioned above, for everyone who says "the glock would be better if only..." there are many who's biggest issue with them is that ammo is expensive.
To be honest, I don't want it to change at all. If it does, then it will have to prove it's self all over again, which is something it has been working at for the past 20 years. I don't want the Glock to be like a M&P. I have an M&P for that.
Would Glock be able to sell more guns to the guys who think they need to be changed if they did, in fact, change? Sure, but they would risk loosing the customers (It would be safe to say "the majority") they already have won over.
Currently, Glock is having enough problems filling existing orders in the US, let alone the rest of the world. Like it or not, Glock gets it just fine.
No, I'm not a Glockafile, but I do like glocks for what they are. I think they are GTG as they are. If you want something else, get something else.
Hope that makes sense.
Well said Matt... I agree...
My Gen 3 G17 works every time .... and has for years...
Glock definitely has lost bids on large contracts due to its one-size-fits-all approach.
More, high-profile procurements are coming down the pike that require some kind of individual fitting ergonomics. Many call for ambi controls as well.
I've yet to hear a single agency say they'd dump their Glocks if the guns started coming with interchangeable backstraps.
Matt Edwards
12-12-08, 22:47
Todd,
I understand 100%. I'm just saying that I think Glock has a very good product. I understand why they are not in a hurry to make any major changes. Why mess with success, I'm sure that is what they are thinking.
Crap. I wrote a very long response to this and the server stuttered.
Long story short:
Yes, Glock has a very successful product.
Glock earned its place in the market by being an innovative, exciting product. Now they rely on "we're a proven design" which is usually an early death knell. Just as Beretta or SIG. Just ask S&W how that approach worked for them back when their stranglehold on the LE market dried up because they kept pushing revolvers when the community was ready to switch to semiautos.
Glock isn't about to go bankrupt any time soon. But they are losing market share, something that was unthinkable just three years ago.
There are procurements they'll lose -- or be flat out ineligible for -- because they haven't upgraded the ergonomics of their guns.
variablebinary
12-13-08, 07:08
Is that 4th Gen pic verified? SHOT show should provide clarity
And I dont think Glock is going anywhere anytime soon.
Matt,
Great points. I just want to add a couple of points about "ambidextrousness". I've owned 3 glocks. I used to carry a 23 and a 26 but got sick of the fatness so now I carry a Kahr.
However a Glock 34 is always within reach in my bedroom. I trust it completely. It is a better gun than the Kahr, but if I dont carry the better gun, then it does me no good.
I am left handed. I've never had trouble with the Glock. This is not because of some coping strategies that I've successfully used, its because there really arent any issues.
Here's why.
1) slide release - under stress you should be releasing the slide after a reload by grasping the slide itself, not fiddling around with a release. This is the correct way to drop the slide after a reload. For you IPSC guys. Fine, game on, but when the SHTF, you want to manipulate the weapon using as large motor skills as possible. Also, by installing a 34/35 high profile release, you can drop the slide with your index finger without shifting your grip.
2) Mag release. This is a little trickier. I've got the drop free mags that I use for IDPA. It is fairly easy to release the mag with my middle finger. A slight shift is required. More importantly, I've had a mag drop as the gun shifted in my hand from recoil. This happened about 3 or 4 times in 9 years of IDPA shooting. The solution is simple, and proven. Buy yourself some old hi-cap non-drop-free mags. That is what I use in the 34 for defensive purposes. Another thing you can do to minimize problems is install the low profile mag release from almost any other glock besides the 34/35.
With these little tweaks, I've never felt that I was at a disadvantage being left handed.
One side note. I've twice won a Sig of some kind at an IDPA event. (Raffles, I'm actually not very good.) Sigs for me , at least the TDA version are nearly unusable because I cant reach the decocker.
With that said, even though I'm not a particularly good shot, I am head and shoulders above probably 90% of the pistol shots on the average police force or in the average officers corps. I can understand how having a truly ambidextrous gun would be advantageous for someone who only shoots it a couple of times a year.
Don
variable -- Someone commented at my site (which referenced this thread) that he saw one in person at IACP and it was identical to the image JW777 posted.
1) slide release - under stress you should be releasing the slide after a reload by grasping the slide itself, not fiddling around with a release. This is the correct way to drop the slide after a reload. For you IPSC guys. Fine, game on, but when the SHTF, you want to manipulate the weapon using as large motor skills as possible.
This has been discussed here many times. See e.g., this thread (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=10754&page=2) beginning around post #30.
Both racking the slide and hitting the slide release are fine motor skills. Many of the most experienced and qualified combat/fighting instructors in the world teach using the slide release. It is faster and, contrary to what some people parrot because they've heard it over and over again without actually testing it, just as easy if not easier to hit the slide release lever under stress.
2) Mag release. This is a little trickier.
A little trickier for you with your hand size, dexterity, experience level, etc.
I'm not knocking the way you drop the mag ... I reverse the catch on all my pistols because I prefer to use my trigger finger (I'm right-handed). But there are certainly plenty of people who benefit from being able to choose. That's part of being ergonomic. You don't just have a system that most people can be shoehorned into but rather you have an ability to set up the equipment in a way that comes closer to maximizing each individual's ability.
The solution is simple, and proven. Buy yourself some old hi-cap non-drop-free mags.
There's a reason Glock no longer makes its magazines in that configuration. While you may see it as a solution to your problem, the market has overwhelmingly proven that it wants mags which do in fact drop free.
More importantly, even if the mag doesn't drop out of the gun, you've still disabled the gun if you hit the mag button inadvertently in recoil.
I think your other suggestion, to use the non-competition mag catch, is much better. However, if you can't easily do that because you're left handed ... well, we're back to making the case for a reversible or ambi mag catch, aren't we?
Sigs for me , at least the TDA version are nearly unusable because I cant reach the decocker.
And yet thousands of left-handed LEOs and military people have managed to work it out with enough training and practice. Again, that's the difference between making due and having something that is truly ergonomic (ambidextrous). SIG always claims its guns are 100% ambidextrous, too ... for the same reason as Glock.
Todd,
At first I was annoyed at the preachy tone of your response. . . until I realized you are right.
Just the fact that I find the glock to be easy for a lefty to use, but a sig difficult, while others leftys may find the sig easy and the glock difficult makes a pretty good argument that ambidextrous is the way to go.
As for my prefered method of slide release.
As I said or implied, I am a fairly experienced and reasonably accomplished pistol shooter. However I am VERY aware that there are those who know a whole lot more than I do. Sometimes its hard to discern the poseurs from the real guys on the Internet.
What I can tell you is that I was involved in the IDPA when it was first really forming. I was one of the guinea pigs for Ken Hackathorn (sp?) when they were developing their safety officer (then called Range officer) training. As such I had the good fortune to train a bit with him as well as Charlie and Judy Wooley. All of them were early IDPA grand masters and great instructors. All of them were advocates of using the slide as a slide release.
At the time I remember being so overwhelmed by how advanced their skills were compared to mine. Judy, in particular made a very strong case for racking the slide to release it. I'm not going to say I blindly accept anything, but it made sense at the time and still makes sense to me.
What you've said also makes some sense. I think realistically, one should train with both methods of slide release. If a gun is dirty and or damaged the slide release method may not work. Conversely, if your support hand is injured, you may not be able to rack the slide.
The one area where I do disagree with you is in the area of magazines. The only people who depend on drop free mags are the gamers. Early on I was taught to actively strip my mag from the gun with my support hand. When I follow that process there is little to no difference between a drop free and a non drop free mag.
I frankly dont understand why any guys who go into harms way would prefer a drop free mag. Its no faster and it presents a greater risk of accidentally dropping a mag. I'd be very interested in hearing back on that item, as I just dont get it.
Don
Don -- I was involved with IDPA from an early point, as well. In fact, I was one of the people who gave comments on the initial proposed rules before they were finalized. Coincidentally, it was during this time when I first met Ken.
As I pointed out in the thread I referenced, and again here at my site (http://pistol-training.com/archives/160), there are plenty of folks who have what they feel are good reasons to slingshot or overhand the slide. However, most of those reasons are based on being told something that sounds logical and tactical without ever actually testing and analyzing. Long story short: if my gun is empty and I'm not just playing a game, that means (a) I already shot a lot of bullets and (b) the fight is ongoing. Getting my gun up and running ASAP is the priority.
As for the drop-free mag thing, I'm honestly a little stunned you'd say, "The only people who depend on drop free mags are the gamers." You think Glock changed their design because of gamers? I can't remember the last time I saw a major LE or mil procurement that didn't specify drop free mags.
Just like with the slide release/racking thing, plenty of people are so enamored of the Glock that they're willing to make compromises to their technique and call it "better" ... like teaching someone to strip a magazine from a gun during a slidelock reload. That adds time to the process and is not necessary unless you've got gear that forces such a compromise. When you start dealing with one-handed manipulations (very rare in competition) it becomes even more of a hassle if your mags don't drop free regardless of whether they're empty, fully loaded, or partially loaded.
Todd,
Are you basically saying that the M&P is just a "better" pistol? Or just a better pistol for you?
I have read ll your posts, comments, etc...and it seems like you just like the M&P better. Which is fine...are Glocks perfect? No...M&P perfect? No...M&P gives more flexibility to the shooter...
Please advise.
Mace
Mace -- I shoot an M&P better than I shoot a Glock. Quite a few people feel the same way. Quite a few people feel the opposite.
In this thread, I think most of my comments have been in regards to major ergonomic issues which are becoming demands in big procurement. From that standpoint, only a die hard kool-aid aficionado is going to claim that the Glock is on equal footing. You may not care about ambi controls, fitting the gun to a wide range of hand sizes, etc., but a lot of agencies needing to qualify thousands of people per year think it helps.
And, as a few of the M4C IPs have already noted in a concurrent thread, the M&P seems to be a bit more refined when you step up from 9mm to bigger calibers.
I'll start off by saying I am a Glock Fan. I own 4 an shoot them all frequently.
While on the line at the range partners of mine who carry Sigs, Frequently, inadvertently released their mags prematurely during a course of fire. No option for a non-drop free magazine there. I like shooting Sigs (especially when DA/SA), but will never give up my Glocks. That being said, when shooting my friends glock with an extended mag release I felt it got in the way. I did drop the mag once and I found it to be more of an annoyance than any advantage. That being said all of mine are pretty much bone stock w/ trij sights and 5 lb triggers. no plugs, no extended floorplates. But then again that works for me. I will tell you that when moving and shooting then tac reloading using anything other than my Full Size I usually end up with some small blood blisters from pinching my fingers between the receiver and the mag. Yes I do have large hands.
btw (All 9mm 1-G17, 2-G19, 1-G26)
-Mike.
Todd,
Re drop free mags, Sometimes tone is difficult to discern via the written word.
My comment "I'd be very interested in hearing back on that item, as I just dont get it.". Was not meant to be sarcastic. I wasnt trying to make a point, I was trying to ask a question.
I really know that there's something I dont get. I'm trying to figure it out. I was taught to actively strip the mag from the gun long before I ever shot a glock. At the time I was shooting an essentially stock gold cup. (save for some reliability mods, millet sights, an ambi safety and a HUGE slide release that was easy to press with my index finger)
So (again no sarcasm, I'm really trying to understand) when you are teaching someone to shoot a handgun with a steel mag that should reliably drop free, do you train them to let it drop, or do you have them slide their support hand down to assist in stripping the mag?
You have correctly pointed out that sometimes we get in a groove (or a rut depending on your perspective) where we do what we do, but can't recall why.
Don
Everything Todd said is spot on.
Glock has to come up with a newer design. The market demands it. Ambi controls and adjustable grips are becoming standard fare items, and purchase contracts are starting to require it.
I like my G19. It is very durable and I know I can trust my life to it. But I don't really like how it fits in my hand. (I am a righty so the mag release is fine for me) But I make do because that is what I have, and ergo options were not available when I got it.
If I was shopping today for a new pistol it would probably be a M&P because the ergos are head and shoulders above the Glock.
I somewhat wonder if Glock has held back intentionally. Obviously total speculation here, but if they make these minor changes on the Gen 4 Glocks, a changeable back strap gives them something new to offer in a Gen 5. From a purely marketing stand point, I can see how this would not be a bad idea for Glock.
variablebinary
12-15-08, 10:51
I somewhat wonder if Glock has held back intentionally. Obviously total speculation here, but if they make these minor changes on the Gen 4 Glocks, a changeable back strap gives them something new to offer in a Gen 5. From a purely marketing stand point, I can see how this would not be a bad idea for Glock.
Who knows what Gaston's master plan is. Maybe he is just committed to making a no-nonsense combat pistol instead of trying to follow the flavor of the week gun.
Every few years we go down this road. Anyone remember all the fanfare from the Walther P99, with its lauded grip design and interchangeable back straps and ambi mag release. It was going to be the Glock killer and force Gaston to rethink what was being offered...
Yeah that worked well...
In addition, plenty of people experiment with other guns after being firmly married to the Glock design. It keeps like life interesting. At the same time, a huge amount of people revert back to Glock. I know I have
First I was swayed by the XD. Six months later I sold that hunk of shit and went back to my G22. I've dabbled in SIG's from time to time, but I've finally realized those guns are laughably overrated and went back to Glock. Then came HK. Dumped it. Then came the M&P, which was nice and all, but I still went back to my Glocks.
I love guns. All kinds of guns, but when it counts I want a Glock in my hand.
I love guns. All kinds of guns, but when it counts I want a Glock in my hand.
Yup...:D
Mace
While on the line at the range partners of mine who carry Sigs, Frequently, inadvertently released their mags prematurely during a course of fire. No option for a non-drop free magazine there.
I've got a bit of experience with SIGs, and I've never had a mag drop problem. Nor can I remember any of the dozens and dozens of SIG-issuing agencies I work/worked with ever having such a problem or asking for non-drop-free mags.
We did have complaints when the older P220 magazines would not drop free. These complaints came from competitive shooters, LE agencies, and some US .mil folks who were considering the pistol for issuance to certain units.
Todd,
So (again no sarcasm, I'm really trying to understand) when you are teaching someone to shoot a handgun with a steel mag that should reliably drop free, do you train them to let it drop, or do you have them slide their support hand down to assist in stripping the mag?
Don -- I do not teach manually stripping the mag as a default, no. If you've got a gun or mags that commonly cause this problem, though, obviously you need to work around it ... that could mean a different default technique or simply practicing to clear that problem when it arises.
For quite a few guns, you can successfully use the new mag (the one you just took from the belt) to hook and strip the old mag (the one stuck in the well) which allows you to keep to the fastest, easiest, most efficient technique as SOP but still have a Plan B if the mag does get stuck.
Now, if someone tells me he just spent three years in the swamps on Outer Jungala where so much gunk got into his gun that the mag would never reliably drop free, of course he needs a different SOP. Sometimes, though, too many people adopt techniques because they heard about the guys in Outer Jungala and think that it's just more "tactical" to do it their way.
Every few years we go down this road. Anyone remember all the fanfare from the Walther P99, with its lauded grip design and interchangeable back straps and ambi mag release. It was going to be the Glock killer and force Gaston to rethink what was being offered...
I'd say the number of guns which have adopted that interchangeable back strap design has pretty well proven the point. Given that it creates both design & manufacturing complications (which equals expense which equals higher price), don't you think it's odd that so many other companies (HK, Smith, Beretta, Springfield, and SIG) have adopted similar approaches? Hard to call it "flavor of the month" under those circumstances if you ask me.
Your argument is sort of like saying that polymer guns will never be popular because the VP70 failed to dominate the market. Or perhaps striker fired guns are doomed because the 1907 Roth-Steyr isn't in common use. :cool:
The 'problem' with the Sigs was not a problem with the weapon but with the operator which was corrected with training. It occurred using P228' and P226's doing strong to weak hand transitions. Not common at all except with one new shooter who had smaller hands and hit it every time until they explained what she was doing.
I love shooting Sigs, I prefer glocks, but that is mostly because they were the first pistols I owned and fired.
-Mike.
Doesn't explain the GAP round. Talk about a solution in search of a problem. Flavor of the minute in that case.
The Walther P99 failure only explains why that pistol failed and nothing else.
Ergonomics in a pistol are important and expectations have been raised. If Glock continues to ignore that then they are leaving money on the table. That is not a smart thing for any business and it usually ends up catching up with them in the long term.
Who knows what Gaston's master plan is. Maybe he is just committed to making a no-nonsense combat pistol instead of trying to follow the flavor of the week gun.
Every few years we go down this road. Anyone remember all the fanfare from the Walther P99, with its lauded grip design and interchangeable back straps and ambi mag release. It was going to be the Glock killer and force Gaston to rethink what was being offered...
Yeah that worked well...
In addition, plenty of people experiment with other guns after being firmly married to the Glock design. It keeps like life interesting. At the same time, a huge amount of people revert back to Glock. I know I have
First I was swayed by the XD. Six months later I sold that hunk of shit and went back to my G22. I've dabbled in SIG's from time to time, but I've finally realized those guns are laughably overrated and went back to Glock. Then came HK. Dumped it. Then came the M&P, which was nice and all, but I still went back to my Glocks.
I love guns. All kinds of guns, but when it counts I want a Glock in my hand.
Jack_Stroker
12-15-08, 22:43
Something must be wrong with my Glock(s), they all just keep going and going and going...:confused:
Can someone explain what the major complaints seem to be?
Mace
They aren't bad guns but Glock would need to make major changes to their guns before I'd buy one. Mainly the angle of the grip. The grip angle on the 1911 is much better for my hand. This is why I went with the Springfield XD over the Glock. As far as I am concerned the grip angle of the 1911 and other guns that follow the same grip angle just fit my hand better. It points more naturally for me as well. Some Glock models have too fat a grip. I don't exactly have small hands either.
Aside from that I've got no complaints about the Glock.
I'm going to sell all my guns and buy a GLOCK!
Business_Casual
12-16-08, 15:14
They aren't bad guns but Glock would need to make major changes to their guns before I'd buy one. Mainly the angle of the grip. The grip angle on the 1911 is much better for my hand.
I wish I could track down the person who started this idea in the first place, travel back in time and break both of their hands before they typed and posted it. If I never saw it again it would be too soon.
M_P
JediMindTricks
12-16-08, 15:50
Glock's keepin' it real.
Jack_Stroker
12-16-08, 17:01
I wish I could track down the person who started this idea in the first place, travel back in time and break both of their hands before they typed and posted it. If I never saw it again it would be too soon.
M_P
What? There is something wrong with my opinion? I've held plenty of Glocks. I don't like the grip angle. The angle is different between many pistols and the Glock. It doesn't point naturally for me and I find them uncomfortable. The 1911 has a slightly different grip angle and the grip isn't as fat. Other weapons like the Beretta 92FS, the Sig P226 and the Springfield XD fit my hand FAR better than the Glock does. The Glock feels like I'm gripping a 2x4 block of wood in my hand. I find it less comfortable than the Desert Eagle's grip.
So I'm not sure where you are going with that statement.
Never noticed the grip angle difference between Glock and any other pistol I have shot.
Speaking of which, what is the actual grip angle, in numbers, of Glock versus 1911?
Also, Todd, you note that Glock is losing market share. Who in your best estimate, is gaining? Smith M&P? H&K? Just curious what you see out there.
DrewH -- The M&P is clearly eating into Glock's LE market. Glock probably still has 50 times more departments than Smith at this point, certainly you cannot say that the M&P is the new dominant LE handgun! But business is about next year's market share, not last year's.
On the commercial side, I think between Smith and Springfield (XD) you see plenty of folks who might otherwise have been Glock owners opting for something else. Just as importantly, people who might have bought a second (or third or fifth or 20th :cool:) Glock instead chose a M&P or XD in its place. Again, Glock doesn't survive on how many people already own their guns ... they survive on how many new guns get sold.
Obviously, Glock is not about to go out of business or see its popularity drop through the floor. I would guess that they still sell more semiauto pistols in the U.S. than any other manufacturer. But at least within the industry, the changes made for this new "4th Gen" gun are seen by a lot of people as a sign that they needed a little refresh to attract both old and new customers to boost sales again.
toasterlocker
12-17-08, 10:08
The Walther P99 failure only explains why that pistol failed and nothing else.
And really, it is hard to say that the P99 itself even failed. Everyone that owns one has nothing but good things to say about it. I have never heard a single complaint about a real P99. The only reason it didn't do better is because the major importer (Smith and Wesson) was busy pushing the bastardized SW99, which unlike the Walther version, actually did suck.
If the Walther had seen any of the marketing dollars the XD or the M&P have, I can guarantee you we would see a lot more of them out there.
decodeddiesel
12-17-08, 10:57
And really, it is hard to say that the P99 itself even failed. Everyone that owns one has nothing but good things to say about it. I have never heard a single complaint about a real P99. The only reason it didn't do better is because the major importer (Smith and Wesson) was busy pushing the bastardized SW99, which unlike the Walther version, actually did suck.
If the Walther had seen any of the marketing dollars the XD or the M&P have, I can guarantee you we would see a lot more of them out there.
Here here.
I chose the P99 over the 3 gen G19 and as far as the functionality of the weapon itself I have never regretted it. The ergonomics are far superior to the Glock IMHO. I must confess though finding good holsters and accessories has been difficult and would be my only real complaint with the pistol.
The slide still has the ergonomics of a toaster.
Why in the hell wouldn't they round the damn thing off...at all...at least the corners...anything?
Look at a USP slide, then at an HK45/P30 slide. What a novel idea! They slimmed it down to remove un-necessary width! Wa-la!
I'm not suggesting HK > Glock, I'm just tired of seeing "new" generation Glocks that essentially mirror the previous generation.
And ditto on the P99's. Excellent pistols IMO....and highly under rated.
Changing the slide dimensions would mean holster fit issues. I'm sure Glock (smartly, IMO) wants to make sure that holster companies don't need to redesign their G holsters and more importantly that current Glock-issuing agencies can easily switch to a new Glock without having to buy new holsters.
My Glocks ran and ran and ran. They were excellent combat handguns. However, primarily because of the grip angle and grip size combined with my small hands - among other features - I decided to go eat some M&P cake and I couldn't be happier. I also agree with the other comments made by Todd, above.
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