Best drills for testing different optic speed?

[Eurodriver]

I’ve almost fully transitioned from Aimpoints to LPVOs. The growth was very slow starting several years ago, but it got exponentially faster. A few things made me see the light over the past few years: Watching Jack Leuba destroy two entire squads of guys in a 2 gun match while using a NF 1-4, DocSherm having almost nothing but LPVOs, and me running the MNQ with a T1 vs Vortex 1-6 next to Firefly, RobertTheTexan, and Noonesshowmonkey (wow I’ve met quite a few M4Cers)

Anyway, I want to be able to quantify my abilities with the LPVO vs the Aimpoint. I can quantify weight and size. The LPVOs are in some cases a full pound heavier than the T2 series. I just switched from the Vortex 1-6 (a great optic) to the NF 1-8 to save about 6oz and gain 2x power. The size matters when putting guns in cubby holes to shoot out of barricades and the weight matters when shooting offhand. I think that the 8x magnification more than makes up for any shortcomings with these two factors, but what I’m not sold on is how much slower I am with splits and such. So, I’m looking for drill ideas.

I ran the MNQ using a T1 in approximately 24 seconds clean (score of -2 under par), and with the Vortex 1-6 I ran it in 24.96sec with 1 miss for a total score of 2 over par.

I’d like to do some drills where I shoot at an ipsc at 100y within 1 sec from the low ready. I can do this easily with a T1 but I’m looking at other drill ideas to test the validity of the theory that a LPVO is “worth” it.

Hope this makes sense.

[Firefly]

All else being equal, an aimpoint is almost as outmoded as iron sights at this point. I will say on LPVO, for me anyway, a super bright dot helps. Im getting older and catching astigmatism and think for me that if the dot had been a bit brighter I coulda done more on 1.1 (i sorta got my ass kicked on that one) but could have likely done a lot better on 2x. I think also I got lazy on the standing portion of the MNQ. Regardless the only RDS sights I'm willing to mess with at this point are EOtechs or RMRs because aimpoints feel too "scopey" and don't really make up for it. To me, aimpoints are kinda boomer tier.

Dem Steiners doe.....

Also I dare say that a 1.5 ACOG is better than an aimpoint. It was super forgiving and you could just pound and pound a lot easier. it may just be me but aimpoints give me this annoying tunnel vision and bleh

[MegademiC]

El prez should be a good drill, if you are testing close speed.
It tests getting on target, splits, and transitions, as well as getting back on target after a reload.

I’d like to get your thoughts on the nx8 once you get more time on it. Im stuck between that and the vortex right now- weight vs eyebox seems to be the debate from what Ive read. Im currently running a leupold patrol and its the only lpvo i have experience with right now.

If you have the facilities, maybe set up a simple uspsa style stage to incorporate shooting on the move and transitions, and getting on target after a full sprint.

[turnburglar]

This thread should be useful as I'm sure most AR guys have asked this very same question. Here's one I have done in the past: not to quantify optics, but I dont see why it wouldnt work.

Near/Far drill:

Set up a cardboard target at 5m and a steel at 100m. Try engaging under different rules and starting conditions and time yourself. For example: "At buzzer engage close target 3 times, and far target twice for time". Modify by starting facing away from target or adding dynamic movement: "shoot close target after spinning 180* and sprint 10m to a cone and engage far target".

[docsherm]

After useing the Short Dot for a while i found that as long as the scope was bright enough for daytime use the limitations were less than the benefits when compared to a reflex sight. They may weight a bit more but you have the ability to PID targets much farther out. As for speed, that comes with practice. Is it as fast as an EOTECH, no way. But it is very fast after many years of practice.

My current go to is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4. Super bright and it is a singke dot and not the entire retical that is illuminated, something i have found to be very helpful. In comparison to the Vortex PST 1-6 it is much brighter and almost 1/2 the weight. Not that the Vortex is a bad scope, I have 2 and like them. They are just used for different applications.

Now the NX8 is by far my favorite scope right now. Is it incredible. NF really knocked jt out of the park with that one.

[GTF425]

If you want to assess purely your ability to make hits and eliminate factors like reloading mechanics/moving in to a position (like barricade work/kneeling through port holes):

3 hits standing @ 100y
3 hits kneeling @ 200y
3 hits prone @300y

Run it twice with each optic and compare both times and any dropped shots. 300y is nothing with either optic so it's not a ball buster but will objectively demonstrate the ability to engage both accurately and quickly at varying distances.

Or just run a 100 point agg at 100y with a B-8. Each dropped point is a corresponding second added to the total time. Again, not a ball buster, but an objective measurement of speed+accuracy with both.

I'm 100% on the LPVO bandwagon. Having shot both EOTechs and the Razor a considerable amount, I'm no slower with the Razor but am significantly more confident in my shots beyond 300y with it.

I'll run a course of fire either next week or the week after (depending on my schedule) and update this post. Just a basic 6 position shoot that I use to warm up with that's shot at 200/300/400 from both shoulders which could be an excellent drill to use for this comparison.

[Ironman8]

After useing the Short Dot for a while i found that as long as the scope was bright enough for daytime use the limitations were less than the benefits when compared to a reflex sight. They may weight a bit more but you have the ability to PID targets much farther out. As for speed, that comes with practice. Is it as fast as an EOTECH, no way. But it is very fast after many years of practice.

My current go to is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4. Super bright and it is a singke dot and not the entire retical that is illuminated, something i have found to be very helpful. In comparison to the Vortex PST 1-6 it is much brighter and almost 1/2 the weight. Not that the Vortex is a bad scope, I have 2 and like them. They are just used for different applications.

Now the NX8 is by far my favorite scope right now. Is it incredible. NF really knocked jt out of the park with that one.

Agree on the NX8! With the footprint and weight factor, I’m ok with a little less forgiving eyebox.

That said, I still have an H2 on my house gun but have been recently considering going with another NX8. Have you gone full LPVO even for dedicated house guns?

[docsherm]

Agree on the NX8! With the footprint and weight factor, I’m ok with a little less forgiving eyebox.

That said, I still have an H2 on my house gun but have been recently considering going with another NX8. Have you gone full LPVO even for dedicated house guns?

Currently the only set up with an EOTECH that i have is my 300 BO for Subs with a can. All of the rest have some variation of the 1-4,6,8 on them.

[noonesshowmonkey]

Euro,

I think that you can come at this a few ways, and a composite of them would be best.

First, longer ranged shooting drills like the 100-200-300 course of fire that GTF425 was describing. Especially if you shoot it to a decent standard of accuracy, which a B8 from standing with a red dot would count as a pretty decent standard. These courses of fire would likely favor the LPVO, as you can get a much clearer sight picture and track & call your shots more easily.

Next, I'd consider some closer in, rapid transition drills similar to VTAC 2-2-2 or 1-5, etc. These drills would definitely favor an optic like an Eotech, as they reward fast transitions and quick dot acquisition.

Finally, a composite run, such as a 2-Gun stage or a 2-2-2 leading into 100-200-300m, run with a T2 and then your LPVO. Something that requires movement, barricade/awkward position fire (finding that eyebox, dawg), short & long engagements performed rapidly, back to back.

Personally, my journey (such as it is) has been from red dots towards LPVO / Eotech. For a General Purpose type of rifle, an LPVO is the bee's knees. For a dedicated CQB gat, Eotech masterrace. Steiners are great, and I dig the weight comparison to Vortex or Razor. But, and this is a big but, 4x top end makes them feel like an overweight ACOG. The 6x top end of the Vortex or Razor gives me something for that weight. The NX8's eyebox was definitely less forgiving to get behind, but not terrible, and the clarity, brightness, and quality of the reticle made up for a great deal. Were I spending someone else's money, I'd have NX8s on all of my rifles, save an Eotech on a shorty for CQB.

Also germane to this discussion is a point that we have discussed in person, which was brought up by Jack Leuba. "Look across the street, at your neighbor's house. Look into one of the windows. Imagine trying to shoot someone through that window; someone who does not want to be shot. Imagine trying to 'see' them, much less identify that they are in fact trying to shoot you. Now, imagine trying to do this with a T2, an think of what you would and wouldn't see. Then, imagine examining the same situation with an LPVO..."

[docsherm]

The biggest factor is to not think that they are interchangeable. The skills are what i am talking about. Each need to be treated differant and trained with as such. Having both is not an issue as long as both are trained with.

If you want to compare your speed with each do 2 seperate drills and time them. Have one at distance and one at closer range. Traditionally, the magnified optic will be faster and scope better at distance and the reflex sight will score better at the closer range. Then take the aggregate score and determine if the variance is better for one or the other.

But remember, if you have more time on one optic that will skew the results. So it really boils down to practice.

[Firefly]

Currently the only set up with an EOTECH that i have is my 300 BO for Subs with a can. All of the rest have some variation of the 1-4,6,8 on them.

Really...my EOtech is on a fartaround PCC. my pigger will get RMR'd. That's it for me. As for anything else, PID is key plus people dont like to be shot at as Nooneshowmonkey pointed out and they try to cheat by concealing themselves, finding cover, creating distance bleh.

Personally the NX8 didnt seem as bad as a leupy per eyebox. Steiner has a 1-5 but $$$$ I liked dat Steiner. If I were rich past being rich in tge Lord; I'd be getting hella Kahles 1-6s

[Coal Dragger]

As others have suggested incorporate a distance shooting component to your evaluation standard in addition to all the close up work. At least if you have access to a range that can accomplish that task. Personally I’m 10 minutes away from a range with berms or target placement points at 25, 50, 100, 200, 300, and 800 yards. Plus a hillside covered in rocks in the 400-600 yard range (I range them and shoot them). So I’m totally on the LPVO wagon at this point with a NF 1-4 on my SR-15, I’ve been able to reliably get first round impacts on the evil rocks at 550 yards with the little 1-4, in the wind. Can’t say the same for my old Aimpoint Comp M2, and the NF is not so slow up close that I am going to get killed in da’ streets. My performance differential up close between the two is very narrow. There’s a reason LPVO’s dominate in 2 and 3 gun competition.

Another interesting component you could work into an evaluation standard would be “no shoot” targets that are not highly contrasted with allowable targets. I think you would find as distance increases the ability to resolve the targets, or even find them at all, will heavily favor the LPVO. A half dozen cardboard IPSC torsos, a stencil, and some slightly darker shade of brown spray paint could make for a very interesting course of fire at the 200-300 yard lines. Particularly in evening light, or early morning.

[crossgun]

I really wanted to make the switch and figured the LPVO really had some advantages that I could take from until I ran it in a low light class and under those conditions. Based on wanting it to play a primary role for me as a sighting system I realized it cant or at least when things get dark. It just becomes too slow no matter how much light you run.

[docsherm]

I really wanted to make the switch and figured the LPVO really had some advantages that I could take from until I ran it in a low light class and under those conditions. Based on wanting it to play a primary role for me as a sighting system I realized it cant or at least when things get dark. It just becomes too slow no matter how much light you run.

How so? Was the scope illumination not on? Please elaborate on the issues you had.

[RobertTheTexan]

I have had no issues running LPVO’s. Especially on anything 12.5 or longer and really like my XTRII 1-8 on my Noveske, 14.5, in part because the broken reticle in the XTR is similar to my EOTech ring and also the range it gives me over other options. I’ve ran 1-4’s and 6’s on my 12” LaRue’s 12.5 DD’s and I like that setup.. That said I still prefer an EOTech on my dedicated CQB guns. The exception is my PDW which has an RMR in a LaRue Iron Dot mount. Either path you take doc is dead on the money. You have to train, train, and train. It takes training to flesh out strengths and weaknesses and train out if possible and it also takes a good optic.

[markm]

I'm still struggling to find the need for the LBGTO sight. These fragile, bohemoth things on fighting ARs just don't make sense to me. The Nightforce variant is at least manageable in size, but as someone pointed out, a bright red dot when dialed down would make it faster for me.

[titsonritz]

I really wanted to make the switch and figured the LPVO really had some advantages that I could take from until I ran it in a low light class and under those conditions. Based on wanting it to play a primary role for me as a sighting system I realized it cant or at least when things get dark. It just becomes too slow no matter how much light you run.

My Kahles 1-6x24i and Surefire M600DF worked great in the low light class I took a couple months ago.

I don't see much speed disadvantage with my Kahles over my Aimpoints for the majority of my shooting. The one exception I can think of is shooting through barricades while in irregular/unnatural positions, other that you're dealing with additional weight and a larger footprint.

[Coal Dragger]

I'm still struggling to find the need for the LBGTO sight. These fragile, bohemoth things on fighting ARs just don't make sense to me. The Nightforce variant is at least manageable in size, but as someone pointed out, a bright red dot when dialed down would make it faster for me.

Have you tried one?

For a general purpose carbine I think the LPVO has some merit, because it can cover the widest portion of the effective range of a carbine better than any other single optic. While a tad slower up close than red dot or holographic sight, a good LPVO isn’t that far off (and can keep pace pretty well if you actually put the work in to get fast). At distances where long guns are traditionally king the LPVO has a distinct advantage in target acquisitions, and ID at a minimum. With an intelligently designed reticle the shooter gets some other useful tools for improving their ability to make bullets go where they’re needed. I know a lot of people seem to dislike BDC reticles, but I’ve had very good luck with them at the distances you would normally use something like a 5.56mm carbine at. A red dot doesn’t offer that functionality.

[Doc Safari]

I'm still struggling to find the need for the LBGTO sight. These fragile, bohemoth things on fighting ARs just don't make sense to me. The Nightforce variant is at least manageable in size, but as someone pointed out, a bright red dot when dialed down would make it faster for me.

I have to disagree with Firefly that RDS sights are obsolete, but LPVO's do have their place. Right now I've got a Leupold firedot that works as a dot sight close up but no matter how much I practice I just can't get anywhere near the speed I have with a dedicated RDS. I kind of don't expect that to change. I think the nature of the beast is that they just don't work as quick-shot optics. Maybe....maybe...when I get the funds I'll jump into a Trijicon with the triangle illuminated reticle and see if I'm any faster with that. Right now my solution is RDS on pistol AR; other optics on rifle AR's.

[Coal Dragger]

My Kahles 1-6x24i and Surefire M600DF worked great in the low light class I took a couple months ago.

I don't see much speed disadvantage with my Kahles over my Aimpoints for the majority of my shooting. The one exception I can think of is shooting through barricades while in irregular/unnatural positions, other that you're dealing with additional weight and a larger footprint.

My last opportunity to shoot with barricades was a PatMac class and if the LPVO was slower than the Aimpoint the results among the students didn’t show it. For the rifle challenge the fastest clean practice run was performed by myself with the NF 1-4 (using no illumination by the way, daylight bright is not needed if you can see the reticle), and the fastest clean final and winner was another good shooter running a Vortex Razor 1-6. Any time we had to shoot for any kind of accuracy standards those of us with magnified optics seemed to do better as well.

[nightchief]

OP, have you ever shot the "Baer Standards Drill"? It's a straight forward drill and the target is on 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper. 13 rd drill, requiring faster shooting at a larger target and then precision shooting at a small target and can be run from really any distance.

https://baersolutionsllc.com/page3

[Pappabear]

Agree on the NX8! With the footprint and weight factor, I’m ok with a little less forgiving eyebox.

That said, I still have an H2 on my house gun but have been recently considering going with another NX8. Have you gone full LPVO even for dedicated house guns?

I cant go anything but RDS for house gun. But I own and love the NX8, it sits an a SR15 currently. Id like to own about 3 more though. Im all about an ACOG, but the NX8 kinda replaces the ACOG, I still run them because I cant afford a bunch of NX8's.

PB

[Dr. Bullseye]

i don't know anything about competition shooting and don't care about it. I am concerned with self defense and facing multiple shooters at varying distances 7-100 yards, primarily. I have tested four types of sights, mil spec irons, Ultradyne, Sig Romero 3 and Primary Arms 2.5x prism. "Speed" to me also means speed at acquiring a relatively unknown target, not just toggling between known two paper targets at 20 yards like a machine. I have even tested the mil spec peep vs. the ghost ring out to 100 yards.

Method: Comparing two sights means two colors of balloons. Each balloon is taped at the end and to a bush, tree branch, log, etc. along with the other color of balloon a yard or so away. Ten to twenty balloons of each color are used and spread out in a semi circle at varying distances. You begin with one optic and one color balloon and move to the next to the next as fast as possible. A miss is a miss and just takes up more time since you have to hit the balloon to move on. Actually, a timer is not necessary as the differences are so apparent.

This works for any optic or sight. I have reported the actual differences before and it just pisses you guys off so I will omit this for now.

[arptsprt]

Euro,

I’ve been going through the same transition to LPVO. Very pleased with my progress and results.

My split times are not slower and my accuracy is improving.

Some of the more effective drills I’ve been using for my transition include:

Vickers Triple 5
VTAC 1-5 drill
1/2 1/2 drill
18 drill
50 yd head shots IPSC target, low or high ready with 3 second par.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SilentRecon]

I have had no issues running LPVO’s. Especially on anything 12.5 or longer and really like my XTRII 1-8 on my Noveske, 14.5, in part because the broken reticle in the XTR is similar to my EOTech ring and also the range it gives me over other options. I’ve ran 1-4’s and 6’s on my 12” LaRue’s 12.5 DD’s and I like that setup.. That said I still prefer an EOTech on my dedicated CQB guns. The exception is my PDW which has an RMR in a LaRue Iron Dot mount. Either path you take doc is dead on the money. You have to train, train, and train. It takes training to flesh out strengths and weaknesses and train out if possible and it also takes a good optic.Hey RobertTheTexan, I sent you a PM [emoji1783]

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[ap1220]

Great idea Euro!

I am also interested in similar drills as I want to compare/test the waters with a RDS and an Leupold Mk6 I have waiting at the house.

sub'd to thread for more details.

[Vegasshooter]

I have also been one of the earlier adopters of the LPVO. I was very involved in both writing the policy and lesson plan, but also compiling the list of approved optics for my department. In that capacity I have used many of the LPVO on the market. Both FFP and SFP. Two drills that I use have already been mentioned, but I think they are VERY good. Those are 1) 1-5 drill. 2) 1/2 and 1/2 drill. That drill is all about recoil control and “driving the dot” back on target. I had a blast shooting that drill with Jack Leuba from KAC. We were in a Dual Role Carbine class, and I was shooting my KAC ACC with my T2 in a 45* offset mount. That’s an awesome drill to tell you how well you can run any rifle up close, but ESPECIALLY a .308.
Had to run my 45* offset because my main glass was a 3-20 S&B.
I also think the El Pres is a fantastic drill. Between these drills, run several times each, and times averaged, you can really get an idea of where you are.
I can tell you that for me, it’s no contest, I’m all about that LPVO life. Get one that is super bright, ie: the NF NX8 or ATACR, or the Burris XTR 1-8 if I remember correctly was pretty bright, and you’re all set. I didn’t find the transition to be particularly tough. Maybe the difference was that I have shot Aimpoint for YEARS, so a LPVO is just a longer tubed Aimpoint. Maybe a person that was used to an EoTech would have a different take on it. Thinking about it, that might really have some merit: shooters transitioning from an Aimpoint vs transitioning from an EoTech. Not sure.....

Anyway, I love the LPVO, and I see the market getting nothing but better, and I see this trend continuing for a bit. I have been saying.... it’s a GREAT time to be a shooter right now. We are in a new Golden Age.