View Full Version : "Black Hawk Down": question for soldiers?
I saw the film, read some accounts. Question:
How did any of the Americans survive that kind of combat?
Same question I suppose for the Battle of Fallujah.
Urban war, way outnu.outnumbered, enemy on home territory, urban conditions. How does anybody survive that?
Superior equipment, training, and tactics - and probably more importantly - teammates and will.
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Yeah, it's pretty wild when a group of 200 takes on a population 2 million plus and kicks their ass for the most part and inflicts amazing death tolls in the thousands.
Comes down to guys, gear, support and a really strong desire to not die in this shithole.
They believed in themselves
Averageman
07-15-19, 06:15
Have you read the book? Lots of good stuff in there.
There is a lot of "Never Quit" that used to be instilled in Army training. From day one you learn you don't want to be "That Guy" that lets his team down.
And air support helps even if just Blackhawks and Little Birds. Plus Ranger training reinforces that don't give up never surrender mindset. One thing that struck me about BHD was trigger control, those guys didn't waste ammo.
Superior equipment, training, and tactics - and probably more importantly - teammates and will.
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Our tactics sucked in Fallujah, but we learned very quickly what to do and what not to do. Superior equipment and training, absolutely; superior teammates and superior will and spirit, absolutely.
Superior equipment, training, and tactics - and probably more importantly - teammates and will.
That right there arguably led to the expansion/shitty part of the battle, when the Rangers and their Delta counterparts decided they couldn't let those Blackhawk crews be caught by the Skinnies. Up to that point the mission had largely been a success, with Aidid's lieutenants captured and the egress begun. Then the first bird went down.....
I'll bet if you asked those guys today they wouldn't do it any differently with regard to their loyalty and what it ultimately cost.
I’d say the same way they prevailed at Belleau Wood, the Ardennes Forest, Tarawa, Hue City, etc... Pure guts, determination, skill and teamwork.
I saw the film, read some accounts. Question:
How did any of the Americans survive that kind of combat?
Same question I suppose for the Battle of Fallujah.
Urban war, way outnu.outnumbered, enemy on home territory, urban conditions. How does anybody survive that?
Better training, better gear, mindset, etc, would be the general answer. Specific to BHD event: I'm surprised they didn't lose more guys myself. I'd add a devils advocate comment, and this comes right from the horses mouth of one of only 4 SEALs that were there, we became over confident that we could do what ever we wanted due to the far superior training, better gear, mindset, etc, which lead us right into that very trap, and it was a well laid trap at that. We were played and they won as far as their goals vs ours. And it was a proof of concept op by OBL to show, give the US a bloody nose and they will take their toys and go home. Nothing to do with the mil, everything to do with a spinless admin at the time.
Hubris and over confidence also gets people killed, which seems to be a lesson that needs to be learned over and over.
Fallujah seems to me textbook we won, they lost and lost ugly, cuz superior training, better gear, mindset, wins the day, but I'm claiming no expertise. 'Muricans are good at war, and anyone who thinks otherwise usually dies...
titsonritz
07-15-19, 13:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFwivrpFHE0
One of the best resources on Gothic Serpent is Leadership and Training For The Fight by Paul Howe.
We also have a member here who was there.
The gun runs from helicopter pilots kept the somoli's from overrunning some of the American positions. The estimates they killed are in the thousands.
A militia or irregular force can often pull off impressive bombings and ambushes. Deficiencies in training, equipment, leadership, tactics, and motivation often show up when they decide to stick around for a real fight.
Better training, better gear, mindset, etc,.....
Fallujah seems to me textbook we won, they lost and lost ugly, cuz superior training, better gear, mindset, wins the day, but I'm claiming no expertise. 'Muricans are good at war, and anyone who thinks otherwise usually dies...
Fallujah, we only won because we could get inside the OODA loop faster, and we learned real, real quick. Our tactics going in in really sucked, we didn't have the kind of experience we really needed but we learned on the fly. We came out far better educated Force then we were when we went in.
Training and tactics aside, our gear, mindset, and interoperability, all those were superb.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-15-19, 16:09
Read the book about 20 years ago, watched the movie a few times. My question was, In the movie, why didn’t Durant’s crash site get more air support covering fire?
It is amazing now to watch the movie and recognize so many actors that are famous now, but weren’t that well known when the movie came out. The dad from modern family, Jamie Lannister from Game of Thrones, and a bunch of other ones. You know it’s a war movie when the donkey gets more screen time then all the women combined.
Averageman
07-15-19, 16:21
Read the book about 20 years ago, watched the movie a few times. My question was, In the movie, why didn’t Durant’s crash site get more air support covering fire?
It is amazing now to watch the movie and recognize so many actors that are famous now, but weren’t that well known when the movie came out. The dad from modern family, Jamie Lannister from Game of Thrones, and a bunch of other ones. You know it’s a war movie when the donkey gets more screen time then all the women combined.
If I remember correctly, they were firing RPG's from dug in pre-prepared positions in that specific area. That wasn't depicted in the movie, but I believe was why coming in to that specific area from the air was near impossible.
I could be wrong, but that's the way I remember it from the book.
Read the book about 20 years ago, watched the movie a few times. My question was, In the movie, why didn’t Durant’s crash site get more air support covering fire?
We did not have gunships and we were skiddish about losing another helicopter to a RPG.
It is amazing now to watch the movie and recognize so many actors that are famous now, but weren’t that well known when the movie came out. The dad from modern family, Jamie Lannister from Game of Thrones, and a bunch of other ones. You know it’s a war movie when the donkey gets more screen time then all the women combined.
It was a breakout film for so many, did you know POTUS Ford son was also in the movie?
Averageman
07-15-19, 23:05
A militia or irregular force can often pull off impressive bombings and ambushes. Deficiencies in training, equipment, leadership, tactics, and motivation often show up when they decide to stick around for a real fight.
The reality of being the guerrilla fighter is, there are no medivac's coming in to pull your wounded butt out to medical care and you can get a horrible case of blood poisoning from a bad foot blister, you might have a bit of logical hesitation.
Well maybe at least in western countries and values.
sundance435
07-16-19, 14:03
Read the book about 20 years ago, watched the movie a few times. My question was, In the movie, why didn’t Durant’s crash site get more air support covering fire?
It is amazing now to watch the movie and recognize so many actors that are famous now, but weren’t that well known when the movie came out. The dad from modern family, Jamie Lannister from Game of Thrones, and a bunch of other ones. You know it’s a war movie when the donkey gets more screen time then all the women combined.
My guess would be, as others have alluded to, to avoid yet another chopper going down. Even a skinny militia would be able to figure out pretty quickly that we would likely send more air assets to cover the downed choppers - the downed choppers were a two-way target. Every chopper that went down sent a tidal wave through any contingency plans, too. You can extrapolate that from the movie without reading the book, but the book paints it much more starkly.
As for the number of future stars, I always see one that I missed watching it previously. Just a week or so ago it was on Starz or Showtime and I noticed Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (Jaime Lannister) for the first time. "Band of Brothers" is like that, too.
This is an excellent book:
https://www.amazon.com/Gates-Fire-Novel-Battle-Thermopylae/dp/0553580531
I thought about not posting in this thread, but I'll just add some of my memories. We deployed with 17 aircraft (8 MH-60A & MH-60L) and 9 Little Birds (MH-6J and AH-6J) plus 1 spare Little Bird we robbed parts from. Most of our maintenance crew were still Conus and we could have used more help in that area. At one point we could only launch 4-5 Little Birds at one time.
It was basically two BN's with one O-4, two O-3's and the rest were CW2-CW5's. I was one of the O-3's and was also serving as Bn S-2 as well as pilot. In aviation it's usually a 6-1 ratio of Warrant Officers to Commissioned Officers. The Army likes it that way because too many O-3's move to staff jobs or leave the Army after their 6 to 8 year obligation is finished.
It was a find and catch mission, in the worst part of the world (3rd World Urban Environment). For most of September, we flew all over Mogadishu learning the layout of the place and we were told to de-sensitize the population to seeing our aircraft. In hindsight that wasn't such a good idea because we figured out they could anticipate our arrival by the sound of the aircraft. That directive came from some bonehead at the Pentagon.
Our insertion forces had exfil ground units that were totally outgunned. A 50 cal on a Humvee just doesn't cut it when you're facing hundreds of Chat Chewing maniac militia members, armed with every kind of small arm imaginable as well as RPG's. The 14th Infantry was in no better shape. I've always said we should have gone in and killed Mohamed Aidid and left, but someone figured we could make that place into a functioning city. No. I've seen pictures taken recently and it still looks just as bad.
CW5 Dan Jallota interview about BHD event.
From the US Army Aviation Museum interview.
https://youtu.be/484I-Cj-qM0
I thought about not posting in this thread, but I'll just add some of my memories. We deployed with 17 aircraft (8 MH-60A & MH-60L) and 9 Little Birds (MH-6J and AH-6J) plus 1 spare Little Bird we robbed parts from. Most of our maintenance crew were still Conus and we could have used more help in that area. At one point we could only launch 4-5 Little Birds at one time.
It was basically two BN's with one O-4, two O-3's and the rest were CW2-CW5's. I was one of the O-3's and was also serving as Bn S-2 as well as pilot. In aviation it's usually a 6-1 ratio of Warrant Officers to Commissioned Officers. The Army likes it that way because too many O-3's move to staff jobs or leave the Army after their 6 to 8 year obligation is finished.
It was a find and catch mission, in the worst part of the world (3rd World Urban Environment). For most of September, we flew all over Mogadishu learning the layout of the place and we were told to de-sensitize the population to seeing our aircraft. In hindsight that wasn't such a good idea because we figured out they could anticipate our arrival by the sound of the aircraft. That directive came from some bonehead at the Pentagon.
Our insertion forces had exfil ground units that were totally outgunned. A 50 cal on a Humvee just doesn't cut it when you're facing hundreds of Chat Chewing maniac militia members, armed with every kind of small arm imaginable as well as RPG's. The 14th Infantry was in no better shape. I've always said we should have gone in and killed Mohamed Aidid and left, but someone figured we could make that place into a functioning city. No. I've seen pictures taken recently and it still looks just as bad.
Thanks for posting. Your opinion and thoughts matter, as you are someone who was actually there. If you were hesitant to post it should not have been from folks like myself; I would never criticize what you did or saw. Kudos!
Thanks for posting. Your opinion and thoughts matter, as you are someone who was actually there. If you were hesitant to post it should not have been from folks like myself; I would never criticize what you did or saw. Kudos!
Gothic Serpent wasn't a good time in my life. I promoted out of the 160th in January 1994 and spent time at the Pentagon and Fort Meade before my assignment back again at Fort Campbell with 2/17 CAV. Kosovo was my only overseas deployment after Mogadishu, and the last of my career in 1999.
Images of women and teenagers running around crazy-like shooting along with the men didn't really get play in the movie. The search for Mike Durant and our broadcasting recordings over the city letting him know he was not forgotten is another strong memory. Time does heal everything, though.
One thing that has never been discussed except in our Night Stalker reunions are the two unmarked rotorcraft at the Mogadishu airport, flown by non-military members (at least we thought). They were Kiowa C and D models, parked to one side and we had no interaction with the crews or passengers. We always suspected CIA, but we had no interaction with them, and rarely saw them aloft. The firepower from that D Model Kiowa would have been appreciated. I would like to have that answered before I die.
Too many potential lessons learned got swept under the rug. And there's no shortage of bonehead directives coming from the pentagon getting Americans killed.
The contractors at the annex in Benghazi have some unanswered questions too from the CIA.
The book I referenced earlier said there was never an AAR at least from the "D" boys side.
Too many potential lessons learned got swept under the rug. And there's no shortage of bonehead directives coming from the pentagon getting Americans killed.
The contractors at the annex in Benghazi have some unanswered questions too from the CIA.
The book I referenced earlier said there was never an AAR at least from the "D" boys side.
I highly doubt that. Much more likely that they just didn’t publicize it.
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Diamondback
07-16-19, 23:42
Gothic Serpent wasn't a good time in my life. I promoted out of the 160th in January 1994 and spent time at the Pentagon and Fort Meade before my assignment back again at Fort Campbell with 2/17 CAV. Kosovo was my only overseas deployment after Mogadishu, and the last of my career in 1999.
Images of women and teenagers running around crazy-like shooting along with the men didn't really get play in the movie. The search for Mike Durant and our broadcasting recordings over the city letting him know he was not forgotten is another strong memory. Time does heal everything, though.
One thing that has never been discussed except in our Night Stalker reunions are the two unmarked rotorcraft at the Mogadishu airport, flown by non-military members (at least we thought). They were Kiowa C and D models, parked to one side and we had no interaction with the crews or passengers. We always suspected CIA, but we had no interaction with them, and rarely saw them aloft. The firepower from that D Model Kiowa would have been appreciated. I would like to have that answered before I die.
Thanks for sharing--things like this are why I became a historian, to ensure that the stories of those who were there are told in an even-handed manner with all the facts both good and ill entering the ledger.
The one thing I will comment as an armchair historian is, one can never discount the value of a little Help From Above. Some of us, in whatever walk of life we follow, have the Man Upstairs take a special personal interest in taking better care of us than we deserve. :) (Though THAT's not just history but everyday life experience talking, too.)
There was a huge After Action Review, at the strategic and tactical levels. There were a lot of redaction of names and specifics in the public releases. If it weren't for the books written, a lot of it would not have been made public - this includes Mike Durant's book.
There were a lot of moving parts to Somalia, and Task Force Ranger was just a little bit of it, but the movie made it seem like the 3 to 6 October period was all that was going on. Gothic Serpent was one blip in Operation Restore Hope, Operation Continue Hope....never figured out how Hope was part of this multi-national fiasco, or how they arrived at the name?
Nobody recalls the shoot downs of aircraft prior to October, the dropping of psyops leaflets or the involvement of Marine AH-1 and AH-4 pilots during Gothic Serpent. They were damn good pilots, but I have yet to meet any of them. And as I mentioned before, there were some aircraft that were operating outside of our AO, doing their own thing with some odd looking high tech gear mounted outboard. One aircraft was a civilian MD version of the MH-6 and had what looked like a stabilized TV camera mount in a big ball on the right side - these aircraft had no markings whatsoever, and those crews had no interaction with us, at least a my level and I was working some of the intel with a plans officer in S-3. Back in those days, right up to and thru 9/11, intel was highly compartmentalized, with turf wars between agencies. I still think they were CIA flying those aircraft. Nobody talks about it unless you were there to see it.
One person who did show interest was the late Col. David Hackworth. About six months before he died, he came to New Mexico and we had a meeting in Albuquerque over a meal. He was writing some article on Gothic Serpent, but I never saw the finished product, if it was ever finished.
Too many potential lessons learned got swept under the rug. And there's no shortage of bonehead directives coming from the pentagon getting Americans killed.
The contractors at the annex in Benghazi have some unanswered questions too from the CIA.
The book I referenced earlier said there was never an AAR at least from the "D" boys side.
There's always an AAR. Always.
ffhounddog
07-17-19, 04:06
I was in a similar engagement in Iraq. You basically do not give into the fear. Mosul 2017 about the same fighting ISIS. You just keep going. I was lucky I was able to call CAS. I really do hate fighting at night.
Since WWII the US has had no peer in any conflict. Not even close. But people are still willing to fight us.
When I hear anti gun people say the 2nd Amendment is antiquated because the government has nukes I say tell that to the Taliban, the Viet Cong, etc.
I was in a similar engagement in Iraq. You basically do not give into the fear. Mosul 2017 about the same fighting ISIS. You just keep going. I was lucky I was able to call CAS. I really do hate fighting at night.
Similar in Fallujah. But we are a whole lot better at it coming out that we were going in.
I was in a similar engagement in Iraq. You basically do not give into the fear. Mosul 2017 about the same fighting ISIS. You just keep going. I was lucky I was able to call CAS. I really do hate fighting at night.
You don't dwell on it and just do the job. Only after an engagement do you have the time to contemplate things, or you put it out of your mind. It's a survival mechanism.
I can say with total certainty that when I am with my fellow former soldiers at annual reunions, I am at peace the most. These are brothers (and some sisters) who in many ways are closer than actual blood relatives. There's a bond that you can't describe, and you can many times communicate with each just with a look or glance when hearing a discussion about a particular time. Those who have never been in the US Armed Forces can never understand what I am describing.
ramairthree
07-17-19, 11:43
There are some basics.
Also, full disclosure, all TICs I have been in have been over before needing to change magazines. I have no experience with multi-hour, multi-day fire fights.
From my experience, you have a bunch of guys who are selected for say the upper quartile of mental and physical capability. Then add factors to select out for grit, determination, intestinal fortitude, resilience, whatever you want to call it.
Then they go into a training or probational phase. Some more fall by the wayside. Then give them more training, equipment, etc.
You end up with a final product that can shoot, move, think, adapt, and perform well above the norm, with a fiery will determined not to let down or fail their fellow shooters. They will buddy carry their bud to safety even though their knee is blown out. They will get the tourniquet on tight enough to stop the bleeding even though their wrist is broken. They will crawl to position to provide cover when their legs are paralyzed. They will toss eight bodies on a helicopter, climb on top of them, bag breathe for another, while others defer evac so bodies will not be left behind. They will expose themselves to fire to get a buddy to safety. They will stack into a room fully knowing the savage has both a gun and a suicide belt because they have to get through the room to one of their own wounded.
There are a sprinkling of men like this from all walks of life, in various shapes and sizes. When an entire troop, squad, platoon, ODA, etc. is comprised of them-
Some pretty impressive things can happen.
Most think of this process as a montage of some getting yelled and screamed at, some push-ups, an obstacle course, etc. and then everyone gets to be a hero.
There don’t seem to be any movies or TV shows about the majority of those groups that failed RIP/RASP, INDOC, SFAS, BUDS, etc. or washed out of training. Nor much detail into the groups without the GT scores or initial physical tests to even go.
Diamondback
07-17-19, 12:59
Most think of this process as a montage of some getting yelled and screamed at, some push-ups, an obstacle course, etc. and then everyone gets to be a hero.
There don’t seem to be any movies or TV shows about the majority of those groups that failed RIP/RASP, INDOC, SFAS, BUDS, etc. or washed out of training. Nor much detail into the groups without the GT scores or initial physical tests to even go.
Closest to it in general awareness is probably Sgt. Sadler's ballad:
"One hundred men will test today
But only three win the Green Beret..."
Various attributions, most probably erroneous, but it's still appropriate.
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
In cases like these, They've taken "the one", each from several hundred and put them all together. Woe be unto those who cross them!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFwivrpFHE0
Tit, great video. I never saw this one. Thanks
PB
Mogadishu Airport, late September 1993, AH-6. Note the flight helmet on the right pylon.
https://i.imgur.com/beWm5DSh.jpg
Mogadishu Airport, late September 1993, AH-6. Note the flight helmet on the right pylon.
https://i.imgur.com/beWm5DSh.jpg
That is a great picture, thanks for sharing.
Mogadishu Airport, late September 1993, AH-6. Note the flight helmet on the right pylon.
You were a Little Bird "guns" pilot?
You were a Little Bird "guns" pilot?
Yes Sir. Commissioned as a Reserve Military Intelligence Officer in 1980 via the Early Commissioning ROTC program at the University of Arizona. After I got my Bachelor's degree in 1982, I branched Aviation (My second choice). Flight School at Fort Rucker in 1982-1983. Air Frame School for the OH-6 in 1983, also at Rucker. Spent 3 months at Fort Huachuca the Spring of 1983 flying various "classified" radar jamming gear between Libby AAF and Laguna AAF at Yuma Proving Grounds. Recruited for TF 158/TF 160 early Summer of 1983 and moved to Fort Campbell in July 1983. Got to do Air Assault School that same July. Did Grenada in October 1983, Nicaragua in 1984-1985 for 18 months, then back to Rucker for Captain's Career Course into 1986. After that a variety of assignments including Operation Prime Chance, Desert Storm, Somalia and eventually Kosovo, plus some other places in between I cannot mention.
I promoted to Major after Mogadishu in early 1994 and did a variety of staff positions at the Pentagon and Fort Meade (Rented a house in Linthicum, Maryland) before returning to Fort Campbell and staff officer for the 2nd Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regt., 101st Aviation Bde. And of course that unit was a Kiowa Warrior squadron, thus my online name of OH58D.
Yes Sir. Commissioned as a Reserve Military Intelligence Officer in 1980 via the Early Commissioning ROTC program at the University of Arizona. After I got my Bachelor's degree in 1982, I branched Aviation (My second choice). Flight School at Fort Rucker in 1982-1983. Air Frame School for the OH-6 in 1983, also at Rucker. Spent 3 months at Fort Huachuca the Spring of 1983 flying various "classified" radar jamming gear between Libby AAF and Laguna AAF at Yuma Proving Grounds. Recruited for TF 158/TF 160 early Summer of 1983 and moved to Fort Campbell in July 1983. Got to do Air Assault School that same July. Did Grenada in October 1983, Nicaragua in 1984-1985 for 18 months, then back to Rucker for Captain's Career Course into 1986. After that a variety of assignments including Operation Prime Chance, Desert Storm, Somalia and eventually Kosovo, plus some other places in between I cannot mention.
I promoted to Major after Mogadishu in early 1994 and did a variety of staff positions at the Pentagon and Fort Meade (Rented a house in Linthicum, Maryland) before returning to Fort Campbell and staff officer for the 2nd Squadron, 17th Cavalry Regt., 101st Aviation Bde. And of course that unit was a Kiowa Warrior squadron, thus my online name of OH58D.
Guessing you've flown past Tiger Island?
Mogadishu Airport, late September 1993, AH-6. Note the flight helmet on the right pylon.
What about the flight helmet?
Thanks for sharing with too! Really awesome!
Guessing you've flown past Tiger Island?
Only passed it, and of course it's a major landmark on aviation sectionals. Most of my flying during the 18 months in and out of Tecucigalpa were to jungle LZ's north of Managua, either flying close air support for other aircraft dropping off contraband, or doing infil and exfil of various personnel, in uniform and civilians. I was a 1LT and Army Aerial Taxi Driver.... A lowly position in the whole scheme of things, but it allowed me to see another part of the world. Funny thing was during that whole episode, my wife and the rest of our families thought we were in Panama, it was that tightly controlled.
What about the flight helmet?
Many ask about the pic, and wonder what that bump on the pylon is, thinking it was some extra type of weapon. Nope, just a nice flat place to keeping it from getting banged up. Note the Little Bird to the far left is set up with outboard benches and the FRIES (Fast Rope Insertion Extraction System), designed for insertion of Rangers/Delta Force, not as an attack platform.
nightchief
07-17-19, 21:30
Really enjoyed this thread and your insight. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and pictures.
Many ask about the pic, and wonder what that bump on the pylon is, thinking it was some extra type of weapon. Nope, just a nice flat place to keeping it from getting banged up. Note the Little Bird to the far left is set up with outboard benches and the FRIES (Fast Rope Insertion Extraction System), designed for insertion of Rangers/Delta Force, not as an attack platform.
Mogadishu Airport, late September 1993, AH-6. Note the flight helmet on the right pylon.
https://i.imgur.com/beWm5DSh.jpg
I watched Black Hawk Down dozens of times as a kid, for a while I watched it every Saturday. Awesome photo. I don’t think I could’ve ever been a pilot, but Little Bird pilot seems like one of the coolest jobs of all time to me.
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Thanks for the responses, and big thanks for everybody that was there (and Fallujah, and Ia Drang, and Hue, and Pointe du Hac, and . . . . . . .).
What is/are the best books to read on BHD?
What is/are the best books to read on BHD?
I don't mind plugging Mike Durant's book from 2006, "In the Company of Heroes". I went with him on a few of his book signing tour locations in 2007. His is a firsthand account of the 160th's operations. I think it's still in paperback.
OH58D, good stuff my friend! ;)
NYH1.
ramairthree
07-18-19, 00:47
Various attributions, most probably erroneous, but it's still appropriate.
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”
In cases like these, They've taken "the one", each from several hundred and put them all together. Woe be unto those who cross them!
I spent nearly three decades as one of the nines with a bunch of other nines and a conentration of the ones. I get it.
Thanks for the responses, and big thanks for everybody that was there (and Fallujah, and Ia Drang, and Hue, and Pointe du Hac, and . . . . . . .).
What is/are the best books to read on BHD?
There's a great book that has several first person perspectives on the battle from people who were there. One was pararescue, a bunch of Rangers, I think a couple guys from Delta. Shows the event from different vantages. I'm traveling now when I get back home this weekend I will look on my bookshelf and give you the title.
Also Howard Wasdin's book (he was a Navy SEAL who was in the city on a different mission, ended up participating in the event) has a section about it as well.
There's a great book that has several first person perspectives on the battle from people who were there. One was pararescue, a bunch of Rangers, I think a couple guys from Delta. Shows the event from different vantages. I'm traveling now when I get back home this weekend I will look on my bookshelf and give you the title.
Also Howard Wasdin's book (he was a Navy SEAL who was in the city on a different mission, ended up participating in the event) has a section about it as well.
"Waz" as he's referred to, and the now Director of the UDT-SEAL Museum, Master Chief Rick Kaiser, and two other SEALs, were in the middle of all that start to finish. Waz was shot multiple times. The contingent of SEALs being just 4 for that event, didn't get any mention in most books and such.
"Waz" as he's referred to, and the now Director of the UDT-SEAL Museum, Master Chief Rick Kaiser, and two other SEALs, were in the middle of all that start to finish. Waz was shot multiple times. The contingent of SEALs being just 4 for that event, didn't get any mention in most books and such.
The SEALs were there for an entirely different mission. Remember one ranger told me that he looked over and saw one of the SEALs, and said, "who the hell are you, and where did you come from?"
The SEALs were there for an entirely different mission. Remember one ranger told me that he looked over and saw one of the SEALs, and said, "who the hell are you, and where did you come from?"
Same with Marine Cobras - they were under different aerial command and control than us, and it was a quick throw-together work in progress to coordinate everything. Then you had all the other foreign troops under UN command. When it fell apart, it was cool leadership under General Bill Garrison that made it work. Great Man.
The SEALs were there for an entirely different mission. Remember one ranger told me that he looked over and saw one of the SEALs, and said, "who the hell are you, and where did you come from?"
Yes, but the intended mission didn't pan out as expected, and they did what they tend to do, adapt the original mission and find ways to make life hard for the enemy. They were part of Task Force Ranger. They were not part of the op leading to the downing of the helos, but as it was for everyone, when SHTF and it was all hands on deck to assist and they spent all day fighting their way in, grabbing guys to get out them out, fighting their way out, and repeating.
Rick started ST2 -> sniper-> ST6 and some LOL comments in this vid on "knuckle draggers" and such as well as mistakes made, such as underestimating the enemy, etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyYz83laEtI
Belmont31R
07-20-19, 16:53
I just listened to an interview with an SOF member who was part of TFR and was on the ground for the fight.
Here’s a Weblink to listen to the episode https://overcast.fm/+F6pY-GMHg
You can also look up the Global Recon podcast episode 114 in other podcast players. Lots of good interviews on that channel about training, mindset in combat, and they usually hit on reintegration into the civilian world after the military.
Same with Marine Cobras - they were under different aerial command and control than us, and it was a quick throw-together work in progress to coordinate everything. Then you had all the other foreign troops under UN command. When it fell apart, it was cool leadership under General Bill Garrison that made it work. Great Man.
Kyle Lamb speaks highly of Gen. Garrison as well.
NYH1.
Belmont31R
07-20-19, 20:45
Actual surveillance footage of the Battle of Mogadishu, Somalia (inspiration for Black Hawk Down) (October 3-4, 1993)
https://v.redd.it/dqh2356gt2b31
Actual surveillance footage of the Battle of Mogadishu, Somalia (inspiration for Black Hawk Down) (October 3-4, 1993)
https://v.redd.it/dqh2356gt2b31
Video courtesy of the Kiowa Delta Model mentioned in post 24 of this thread. The Kiowa Warrior's Mast Mounted Sight uses a TV camera with 12 to 1 zoom ratio, thermal imaging for white and black hot with a video tape recorder at that time, and a laser target acquisition designator (TADS).
The Blackhawks came in with Rangers, the Little Birds with Delta, including 2 Delta snipers. The original footage would have been quite high quality and used as a gun camera recorder. I never saw any weapons packages on this Kiowa when parked off to the side of the airport, nor when aloft, and as mentioned before, no interactions with the crew.
I trained a flew that model of aircraft a year later.
Belmont31R
07-20-19, 22:43
Just curious about the dust. Obviously an issue in the ME at large but have never been able to ask an aviator. How does it play a factor and how does it affect the AC? Before moving into Iraq we dealt with with the talcum like shit on the ground and ‘raining mud’ but just curious how it works when you land a little bird in a street and the whole block instantly turns into white out like conditions. I can’t imagine the intakes sucking in that dust for very long is healthy.
Thanks for your insight!
Just curious about the dust. Obviously an issue in the ME at large but have never been able to ask an aviator. How does it play a factor and how does it affect the AC? Before moving into Iraq we dealt with with the talcum like shit on the ground and ‘raining mud’ but just curious how it works when you land a little bird in a street and the whole block instantly turns into white out like conditions. I can’t imagine the intakes sucking in that dust for very long is healthy.
Thanks for your insight!
Dust is a problem for visibility and for an open cockpit like the MH6/AH6. The engine intake uses a baffle for the air intake which eliminates most of the fine particles. A more serious issue caused by dust is a static charge on the leading edge of the rotor blades, which you can see in low light. You touch the aircraft when it's not grounded and the static charge is enough to knock you flat. That's why sling load crews use an extended hollow tube grounding pole to dissipate the charge before connecting the load.
For the small aircraft like the Little Bird, if I were hovering in heavy dust at say 8 feet or so above ground level and someone grabbed the skid at arms length, it could be a shocking event. That's why the FRIES (Fast Rope Insertion Extraction System) runs the three inch thick rope out on each side away from the skids to allow an operator to hook on, but not actually touching an un-grounded part of the aircraft. The Fast Rope system can be quite effective for exfil operations and quick departures from a location. Most people see it only for fast roping in. There's a FRIES mulit-use rope for going in and out with hooks and lanyards, then there and a special rope with heavier clips strictly for exfil needs.
Diamondback
07-21-19, 00:52
Thanks for pulling the curtain back a bit on combat rotorcraft operations, amigo. Always interesting to see the "hows" and "whys". :)
Dust is a problem for visibility and for an open cockpit like the MH6/AH6. The engine intake uses a baffle for the air intake which eliminates most of the fine particles. A more serious issue caused by dust is a static charge on the leading edge of the rotor blades, which you can see in low light. You touch the aircraft when it's not grounded and the static charge is enough to knock you flat. That's why sling load crews use an extended hollow tube grounding pole to dissipate the charge before connecting the load.
For the small aircraft like the Little Bird, if I were hovering in heavy dust at say 8 feet or so above ground level and someone grabbed the skid at arms length, it could be a shocking event. That's why the FRIES (Fast Rope Insertion Extraction System) runs the three inch thick rope out on each side away from the skids to allow an operator to hook on, but not actually touching an un-grounded part of the aircraft. The Fast Rope system can be quite effective for exfil operations and quick departures from a location. Most people see it only for fast roping in. There's a FRIES mulit-use rope for going in and out with hooks and lanyards, then there and a special rope with heavier clips strictly for exfil needs.
Interesting stuff!
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-21-19, 14:04
M4C, making dirt interesting....
I hated--HATED--FRIES/SPIES ops. Me no likey the heights. Helocasting is right up there, too, with activities I did not like.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-22-19, 14:59
I hated--HATED--FRIES/SPIES ops. Me no likey the heights. Helocasting is right up there, too, with activities I did not like.
Fishing from a helicopter sounds like fun, though it might scare away the fish...
Since it was 1993, I suppose the rifles were M16A2 with fixed carry handles and 3 round burst? Does anybody know?
My 1st Sgt was a private with 10th Mountain that went in at the end. Be had stories of that day. The once thing he said that really never made public knowledge was the amount of women who were fighting as well.
MountainRaven
07-22-19, 18:38
Since it was 1993, I suppose the rifles were M16A2 with fixed carry handles and 3 round burst? Does anybody know?
Photos that I've seen show mostly Colt 723s and 733s (14.5" and 11.5" barrel CAR-15s) for Delta and Rangers.
I'd guess 10th Mtn had M16A2s.
Since it was 1993, I suppose the rifles were M16A2 with fixed carry handles and 3 round burst? Does anybody know?
It was the M16A2 for most, fixed carry handle and every kind of optic mounted on top you could imagine. Some older varieties of the CAR-16. Three or four months before we deployed the end of August 1993, I received my first MP5 which I stowed in a compartment in the back.
My 1st Sgt was a private with 10th Mountain that went in at the end. He had stories of that day. The once thing he said that really never made public knowledge was the amount of women who were fighting as well.
When you say women fighting, I assume you are referring to the Skinnies? I saw a lot of women and kids armed with a variety of small arms, some I wasn't able to identify from my aerial platform, nor was I inclined to slow down and take a closer look.
Photos that I've seen show mostly Colt 723s and 733s (14.5" and 11.5" barrel CAR-15s).
That's Deltas guns. People like Paul Howe have said they had the early Aimpoint red dots. Also from pictures, the Rangers carried M16A2.
Out of that battle, the variable power combat scopes became popular with the tier 1 units. LAV said that was when they experimented with the Schmidt & Bender scopes. He said he was still carrying his Colt 723 and Aimpoint (2000 I think) when they were hunting Scuds in Iraq during Desert Storm. That was only a couple years before Somalia.
https://youtu.be/56Si24-yEzQ
When you say women fighting, I assume you are referring to the Skinnies? I saw a lot of women and kids armed with a variety of small arms, some I wasn't able to identify from my aerial platform, nor was I inclined to slow down and take a closer look.
Yes, female enemy combatants.
Photos that I've seen show mostly Colt 723s and 733s (14.5" and 11.5" barrel CAR-15s) for Delta and Rangers.
I'd guess 10th Mtn had M16A2s.
Funny enough I just finished watching this one today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6zfTYQ09Rs
Yes, female enemy combatants.
Don't forget guys laying prone shooting with their kids sitting on their backs while they do it.
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