View Full Version : New 4 yr study on MRDS vs iron signs on pistols
FlyingHunter
07-19-19, 17:38
I've been rocking MRDS for longer than this new 4 year study with the same results.
https://lockedback.com/results-4-year-handgun-red-dot-study-sage-dynamics/
Good information and agree based on personal experience, BUT in 4 years they only surveyed 110 people and less than 50 actually shot in their scenarios. In the red dot versus iron pictured summary, 24 people shot the course of fire totaling 262 rounds.
I would have thought 4 years would have brought thousands of shooters and tens of thousands of rounds
On the durability side of red dots well over 10K rounds were fired, but I would have thought it would have ben 50-100K rounds in four years.
I guess my point is such a small sampling wouldn't provide enough data that any law enforcement jurisdiction would change over to red dots, seemingly the premise for the entire study. They easily could have had 1000X the sampling just posting on these forums for volunteers.
Interesting and something to consider. But as in anything else also consider the agenda / motivation of the source.
dwhitehorne
07-23-19, 15:39
Interesting read. As I expected the author points out the exact same findings we have seen with red dots on rifles for 20 years. Competition pistol shooters have been taking advantage of red dots for years. Now that technology is catching up we are seeing many more practical pistol options. David
Interesting and something to consider. But as in anything else also consider the agenda / motivation of the source.What agenda? [emoji849]
Similar study, different conclusions.
https://gundigest.com/reviews/optics-reviews/carry-optics-red-dot-green-dot-iron
Similar study, different conclusions.
https://gundigest.com/reviews/optics-reviews/carry-optics-red-dot-green-dot-iron
This appears to be the more realistic result.
I had a long discussion with Mr. Hackathorn about red dot optics and duty use and his take is very similar to this study.
One thing I added to the con list for handgun red dots was re-qualification after battery replacement on optics that require removal from the handgun for battery access.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-23-19, 19:12
Agreed, the fact that irons are better at 5-10 yards for most people is a pretty big deal. Long range shot improvements are a poor trade off for reduced performance at the ranges people actually employ handguns.
Agreed, the fact that irons are better at 5-10 yards for most people is a pretty big deal. Long range shot improvements are a poor trade off for reduced performance at the ranges people actually employ handguns.
Makes the juice:squeeze much tougher.
Aaron Cowan's paper has been updated to a 2019 second edition.
https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_0ce3f826e1264cff964d64079552b640.pdf
If you watch his videos. his research and documentation of red dots on duty firearms has been a long ongoing process.
Yep.
15 yds and in give me irons, 25 yds and out, hand me my MRDS please.
Agreed, the fact that irons are better at 5-10 yards for most people is a pretty big deal. Long range shot improvements are a poor trade off for reduced performance at the ranges people actually employ handguns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDnwKHiKhs
Just one stage from last week's match, chosen for a good representation of super-close target, close hostage targets, intermediate partial targets, distant partial targets, disappearing targets etc.
Not one single iron sighted competitor run it better than I did, and not one single iron sighted competitor, regardless of power factor advantage, placed higher in the match.
Tell me more about reduced performance at the ranges people actually employ handguns.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-24-19, 17:53
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDnwKHiKhs
Just one stage from last week's match, chosen for a good representation of super-close target, close hostage targets, intermediate partial targets, distant partial targets, disappearing targets etc.
Not one single iron sighted competitor run it better than I did, and not one single iron sighted competitor, regardless of power factor advantage, placed higher in the match.
Tell me more about reduced performance at the ranges people actually employ handguns.
I didn't say any person in the world would be better with irons at close range than any person with optics. I guess if all those guys were beating you at that range until you got a red dot it would be an interesting anecdote. For example, years ago I beat a bunch of dudes in a slow fire 100 yard service rifle match with a FEG SA-85 ( AK47). They had K-31s, ARs, Garands, etc. It turns out I was just a way better shot than they were.
Some do, some don't, some I never beat when I shoot irons, some have never beaten me. The point here is an ongoing dogmatic "decline within 5-10" that invariably comes from people whose effort to learn the dot has rarely amounted to anything that can be considered a true effort. I am not even talking about a higher math of actually quantifying the trade offs, for example, is a .2 loss on a draw on open target at 5 yards worth an equal gain on a partial/hostage target/small target at the same distance where RDS is clearly more advantageous.
At this point there are enough people who has given same amount of effort to the dot and the irons without emotional investment, totally result driven. The level of discussion with those folks does not involve the dichotomies. There is enough evidence that shows how minimal, if any, loss of speed up close is with the dot is. I only wish I wasn't so ****ing stubborn for listening to dot is slow dogma for too many years. I may have been actually good with it by now.
I'm not a competitive shooter so I have nothing on that front. However, I do carry an RMR'd Glock 19 every day and I gotta say that I absolutely fell in love...after about 1000 rounds through it. I feel like everything I read was "get 500 reps/presentations/dry firings" in and then you'll feel better. I dunno, maybe I'm slow but it took a lot of practice and frustration but I think I got it down. Fast forward to today and I don't forsee giving up the RMR for anything.
As far as the extreme close up stuff, you're gonna point shoot, at least I am. I still play the "find irons" game if you will. I know that when I qualify, I shoot my 19 in current config better than anything. I used to shoot my 21 best, then I got my RMR a couple years later and started to outpace the 45. Then I got a 19x really close after getting the RMR/19 combo and was shooting that better than the 19. 1911 still reigned supreme over all. Now I am shooting my 19 the absolute best and am significantly better with it over any other gun I own. I had a little crisis over realizing I am quantitatively shooting Glock better than 1911.
I don't know if it is for everyone but for me, I love it and will continue to carry it on duty and off. I remember the days when guys said red dots on rifles were never going to catch on. Maybe the current iteration of MRDS are the Aimpoint 2000 version and we're still waiting on the T2 of MRDS.
RMR for life! Until something [more] amazing comes out.
As far as the extreme close up stuff, you're gonna point shoot, at least I am.
I try my absolute best to not ever do that. Still do it at times and absolutely hate myself for doing that. Part of it due to losing unnecessary points occasionally even up close; that's from competition angle. From an SD angle, I consider my target not larger than a human palm size regardless of distance and I am not going to point shoot that unless I can touch it. That's just my take, others do what makes sense to them.
Always focus on the front sight, with sights aligned and on target. Changing sighting at different distances can't be replicated under stress when the adrenaline dump occurs.
Yep.
15 yds and in give me irons, 25 yds and out, hand me my MRDS please.
I can only speak from my experience. I have been using MRD’s on various pistols for the past 11 years, much of it in 3-gun competitions but also my EDC pistols as well. I can tell you I am MUCH faster placing shots on target at ANY distance (contact distance out to 75 yards or so) with MRD’s over irons. If we are talking about contact distance just use the optic as a giant ghost ring sight, the choice is yours.
If you train, I dont think it matters. Get what you like.
I run rmr for ccw and comp, but there are guys who beat me every weekend running irons. There are guys I beat that I would still beat if I used Irons. If you can efficiently use a handgun, the sighting system is not a game-changer. Its a preference, probably makes a small, but quantifiable difference. Cant comment on new or low-level shooters.
Coal Dragger
07-30-19, 22:53
Just got back from a week of vacation, visited my old pistol team coach at his cabin on Lake Superior. Took my ACRO’d VP9 long slide along, in addition to my SR-15 and Benelli match pistol.
In our time honored tradition when we get together we agreed upon a fairly ridiculous challenge, and proceeded to carry it out. This year it was shooting at the 40 yard line, on a 50ft small bore pistol target, timed fire. Scoring rings in use, because we hate ourselves. My friend is 78 years old now, and any time light went to slightly overcast he would lose sight alignment because the iron sights on our Benelli’s are 4.0mm wide and leave almost no daylight on either side of the front sight in the rear notch. At his age he has a tough time with them unless he’s shooting in bright sunlight. I could watch in real time through a set of 10X50 binoculars as he lost his sight alignment on a partly cloudy day.
He mentioned the issue he was having, so I asked him if he wanted to try a red dot. I explained how to use it, and he proceeded to demonstrate his decades as a serious bullseye competition shooter. Yep, 78 years old or not he had no trouble keeping every shot in the black with the VP9 and an RDS, having never shot one before on any type of weapon. Didn’t matter what the lighting conditions were because he didn’t have to focus down a front sight, and align it with the rear.
Anecdotal data point of one highly experienced pistol shooter, approaching 80 years of age experiencing immediate improvement due to ease of acquiring a workable sight picture.
As another poster said, none of this matters if you train.
All of the technique shortcomings associated with a red dot are null and void once you train enough to develop an index. This is especially moot if you for whatever reason find yourself doing a handstand while shooting one handed with your non dominant eye...use your friggin backup irons if you cant find the dot...
Red dots shine once you start pointing guns at things that move, like real people. A threat based focus is ideal when it comes to shooting living, breathing things with firearms. You CAN accomplish this with irons but its significantly harder to actually train this and perform at a high level.
Placing irons on a subject's face at 15 yards during a felony traffic stop with red and blues flashing around you is not the easiest thing in the world while attempting to still monitor the subjects hands, face and surrounding area's for additional threats. I would much rather be able to look through my optic AT the target during this situation.
Equipment issues will be solved with time and technological advances.
I have no dog in the fight, I love both irons and optics but the way forward will be optics if we can solve a few minor issues with technology.
I find most detractors of red dots come in two camps:
1. Guys that have never pointed a firearm at another living being and want to keyboard commando things.
2. Guys that are old school and have to be pulled kicking and screaming to the forefront of equipment, tactics and techniques. NEVER get complacent, NEVER accept the status quo.
Lastly, a lot of the complaints about finding the dot are friggin ridiculous. Cop's and the average citizen can barely shoot iron sights so why are we all of a sudden talking about how finding a dot is somehow a hard "no" when it comes to the application of the technology? TRAIN! If you still cant find it then you suck and you should train more.
Accepting the common denominator as THE baseline is NOT OK.
Adrenaline_6
07-31-19, 07:10
Interesting. I think the second articles shortcoming is that none of the shooters had time to familiarize themselves with using the optics and everyone is already familiar with iron sights, so the test they did was a little faulty.
Like the users here who do have a lot of experience with these optics, they don't have those short range problems because of practice and familiarization of the equipment used. I would like to try using an mrds, my eyes are on a slow decline.
It's kind of like comparing a brand of pistol you shot for a decade to new pistol you tried that day and saying the new pistol didn't give you any improvement or was a little slower than your old pistol. It SHOULD be that way. If you shoot a new pistol better or the same as a pistol you have been shooting with for a decade. That should make you think a little more about that new pistol.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoDnwKHiKhs
Just one stage from last week's match, chosen for a good representation of super-close target, close hostage targets, intermediate partial targets, distant partial targets, disappearing targets etc.
Not one single iron sighted competitor run it better than I did, and not one single iron sighted competitor, regardless of power factor advantage, placed higher in the match.
Tell me more about reduced performance at the ranges people actually employ handguns.
You clear your gun like an asshole.
Red dots are faster than irons >75% of the time. I don’t want any sight on a fighting gun that is DOA should some water get on the emitter.
I beat a litany of folks in my local club every week shooting irons. There are 1 or 2 that I don’t ever think I’ll beat without switching to the red dot. The other downside folks never talk about is the learning curve. You’re not going to shoot better your first time with a dot. I’d argue you’re going to shoot worse.
One of the two that consistently beats me says it takes about a month or 1.5k rounds to get used to a red dot on your pistol.
You clear your gun like an asshole.
Red dots are faster than irons >75% of the time. I don’t want any sight on a fighting gun that is DOA should some water get on the emitter.
I beat a litany of folks in my local club every week shooting irons. There are 1 or 2 that I don’t ever think I’ll beat without switching to the red dot. The other downside folks never talk about is the learning curve. You’re not going to shoot better your first time with a dot. I’d argue you’re going to shoot worse.
One of the two that consistently beats me says it takes about a month or 1.5k rounds to get used to a red dot on your pistol.
Do we suddenly have time constraints?
Who cares if its a month, two months, 1.5 or three thousand rounds? I certainly don't even though time=money and you're going to have to invest in order to adapt. ALOT of that money issue becomes null and void with quality dry fire. Dry fire excels in training presentation and consistency and its free. (minus the cost of the dot plus associated milling or mount setup).
Water is an issue to a certain degree but with a closed emitter sight like the acro, its moot. Wipe the lens if you have an obstruction.
Ive drawn my duty gun and had a piece of suede in the rear sight channel from the Safariland holster
Ive drawn my duty gun in the rain and had a HUGE bead of water in the rear sight channel. Ive watched water POOL in the rear sight channel while covering down on a subject.
There are downsides to EVERYTHING but the impediments that so many people talk about as being deal breakers are largely absurd.
Lastly, I saw zero appreciable decline in performance when I switched to a dot. Going from platform to platform also makes no difference to me as ive practiced threat based focus shooting with irons (within reasonable distances as there is a time and a place for everything).
What agenda? [emoji849]
The agenda to sell RDS's and training of course. The ads are all over the page. Plus other links.
The agenda to sell RDS's and training of course. The ads are all over the page. Plus other links.Agreed. I noticed this agenda to sell these new things called guns and offer training for them!
The agenda to sell RDS's and training of course. The ads are all over the page. Plus other links.
Im not a huge fan of Cowans online persona. Ive never met the guy so I cant really outright judge him but he comes across as a little goofy and a tad cocky to me. Id like to meet him and shoot with him some day.
Regardless of my personal opinions of him, I don't think hes a dummy. If he were here peddling shit to people his stay in the industry would not be a long one. He's way smarter than that and I do believe that he cares about his longevity, ie he's smart enough to realize that he needs to make money to stay afloat and the best way to do that isn't to peddle snake oil like Pincus and the Center Axis Relock fools. Granted, Pincus survives on his intelligence and charm so maybe Cowan can too IF he were indeed peddling lies...which I do not believe he is.
Anyway, back to red dots. They're awesome on handguns.
MRDS are here to stay. Did not want to go down that road, but 2 years ago my eye sight had started to decline. Thanks MRDS I am back in the game. Finding the dot is a training issue, plain and simple.
johnnywitt
11-16-19, 16:38
MRDS are here to stay. Did not want to go down that road, but 2 years ago my eye sight had started to decline. Thanks MRDS I am back in the game. Finding the dot is a training issue, plain and simple.
Yep. My days of really shooting anything good with irons is pretty much done.
I want to comment on what someone mentioned earlier that they use their irons at extreme close range. At extreme close range you're shooting the gun with one hand and your arm & elbow locked into your chest. It's a true point shoot scenario in that situation and most Folks don't practice that shot. Statistically, as a Civilian, you are going to, most likely, get into a point blank type situation, so it might be prudent to actually work on the shot and draw that you will likely be presented with, along with the typical training that everyone seems to do.
I've shot red dots on pistols for a year now and I love them. I had issue picking up the dot for awhile, So i took a Scott Jedinski class and it helped a bunch. he showed that building a good grip was core to picking up the dot. At close 3yds you use your sight window or if useing an rmr the horns to get shots on target. I had no issues keeping round in the a zone with this method. At distance its not even close rds are king.
In last one month the following happened with while I was shooting RDS guns
- multiple dots effect while engaging a target against low laying sun
- made unusable by rain
- died because of internal failure (Deltapoint)
- attachment screws loosened despite by-the-protocol mounting.
RDS are pretty potent enhancers but they still have loads of issues.
In last one month the following happened with while I was shooting RDS guns
- multiple dots effect while engaging a target against low laying sun
- made unusable by rain
- died because of internal failure (Deltapoint)
- attachment screws loosened despite by-the-protocol mounting.
RDS are pretty potent enhancers but they still have loads of issues.
Part of the class I was in was during a misty to light rain day i had no issues with the rain but some others did their problems were alleviated with a product called (cat crap) applied to the lense of the optics. What mounting system did you use?
The optic that had refractory errors due to sun and rain was a DPP, not sure which of my three. Cat crap doesn't not help when water gets to the emitter.
The optic that got loose was the SRO attached to a CZ Custom plate.
In last one month the following happened with while I was shooting RDS guns
- multiple dots effect while engaging a target against low laying sun
- made unusable by rain
- died because of internal failure (Deltapoint)
- attachment screws loosened despite by-the-protocol mounting.
RDS are pretty potent enhancers but they still have loads of issues.
Rmr seems to have less issues with sun than others.
As for rain, IME it doesnt make it unusable, you just need to experience it to know how the sight pic changes.
For a ccw situation, the dot is protected until the draw.
As for mounting, the aeti pro cut > glock mos, sample of 1 each.
Scott did mention to use the biggest blob if you had issues after applying cat crap, But no one In the class did (no one had a delta point only rmrs, holosun, and a doctor). I've heard of issues with the glock mos plates but never the cz, thats a new one to me.
In last one month the following happened with while I was shooting RDS guns
- multiple dots effect while engaging a target against low laying sun
- made unusable by rain
- died because of internal failure (Deltapoint)
- attachment screws loosened despite by-the-protocol mounting.
RDS are pretty potent enhancers but they still have loads of issues.
Depends on the dot and mount interface.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Rmr seems to have less issues with sun than others.
As for rain, IME it doesnt make it unusable, you just need to experience it to know how the sight pic changes.
For a ccw situation, the dot is protected until the draw.
As for mounting, the aeti pro cut > glock mos, sample of 1 each.
I don't have a lot of experience with RMR when shooting outdoors, although a friend reported a complete washout as he was trying to shoot some rodent.
The sight pic changed into multiple dots, or one fractionated, that got back to normal after I dried it out with a hair dryer in my hotel room. Just like this scenario...
Scott did mention to use the biggest blob if you had issues after applying cat crap...
... finding the biggest blob and tracking it in recoil was very slow. I do agree that in a CCW this should be a lesser problem but I don't see how open emitter optics can be duty grade. After I came back home, I put a closed emitter optic on one of mine.
I too prefer direct milling over the plate system, I have about four direct and two adapter slides. I totally cannot stand a pro-cut type of milling though. Nothing more frustrating that needing to replace an RDS, having two more of the same type and brand at home, and neither of them fit in that custom tailored pocket.
Coal Dragger
11-20-19, 12:35
In last one month the following happened with while I was shooting RDS guns
- multiple dots effect while engaging a target against low laying sun
- made unusable by rain
- died because of internal failure (Deltapoint)
- attachment screws loosened despite by-the-protocol mounting.
RDS are pretty potent enhancers but they still have loads of issues.
A few of your issues are easily addressed by the Aimpoint ACRO.
Closed emitter makes it rain proof, so that issue pretty much goes away. Plus Aimpoint got it right with the mounting footprint with an integral recoil lug on the bottom of the sight with a screw only used for horizontal clamping. This method has no screws subjected to shear forces or otherwise leveraged to work loose, as long as the slide is milled for the optic and you don’t have a plate to also deal with.
Not sure about the internal hardiness of the ACRO but if Aimpoint’s claims are true about being developed on a .40S&W then I’d expect more robustness than you got with the Leupold.
On shooting targets with the shooter facing the sun, well yeah that shit tends to suck regardless of sights.
MountainRaven
11-20-19, 12:42
A few of your issues are easily addressed by the Aimpoint ACRO.
Closed emitter makes it rain proof, so that issue pretty much goes away. Plus Aimpoint got it right with the mounting footprint with an integral recoil lug on the bottom of the sight with a screw only used for horizontal clamping. This method has no screws subjected to shear forces or otherwise leveraged to work loose, as long as the slide is milled for the optic and you don’t have a plate to also deal with.
Not sure about the internal hardiness of the ACRO but if Aimpoint’s claims are true about being developed on a .40S&W then I’d expect more robustness than you got with the Leupold.
On shooting targets with the shooter facing the sun, well yeah that shit tends to suck regardless of sights.
The ACRO did well in Aaron Cowan's destructive testing, I'd expect it to hold up well.
The problem with the ACRO, however, is that the battery life is hot garbage, at least if you plan to use the ACRO like any other Aimpoint reflex sight (left on all the time). The Type 2 RMR seems, for now, to still be the king of the pistol red dots.
Besides the battery issues, another set of problems with ACRO is its size. The physical size of the unit itself is too big for me to conceal to my concealment standards. The physical size of its optic window is too small to be interesting for competition.
I've a T1 on one of my Glocks as my weather proof setup. Also doesn't conceal worth a damn but at least I dont need to worry about batteries. T1s supposedly break down on pistols but mine is doing ok so far.
Coal Dragger
11-20-19, 13:13
I changed my first ACRO battery out at the 5 month mark. Still had setting 10, but not as strong as a fresh battery. It took all of 2 minutes, the sight never came off the gun, and I didn’t lose zero. The only tool I needed to accomplish this was a coin to unscrew the battery cover. I suppose a guy or gal could also use a house key, the back of a knife blade, or even a pull tab from a beer can if needs be. Hell even a properly fitted screw driver would probably work, if you’re one of those fancy people with tools. I usually run mine on setting 8 during the day, or setting 7 or 6 in the evening if I remember to turn it down. I’ve never shot it on setting 10, but will occasionally turn it up to 9 on a really bright day shooting against a light colored back ground like sand or light tan dried prairie grass.
Interstate Battery carries CR1225’s made by Panasonic, I bought 3 of them for about $10 last time I thought of it. Stashed them in my range bag. Stashed one in my truck by taping it to the bottom of the center console lid.
I’m not going to claim that a 50 mAh battery will run as long as a 225 mAh battery, because given the same energy draw it won’t, but this notion that the ACRO is unserviceable because the battery life is measured in months rather than calendar years is overblown. It’s not that big of an issue to work around if you pay attention to your gear. Get up, check your pistol, make sure the sight is on and working, turn it up all the way, turn it down to your preferred setting, holster it, put holster on. If the battery looks like it’s weak, change it out before you step off for the day. You should be running that gear check on all your lifesaving equipment everyday already right? So you are not adding any hassle now are you? Other than maybe needing to change a battery more often, and it’s a really simple battery change.
Coal Dragger
11-20-19, 13:17
Besides the battery issues, another set of problems with ACRO is its size. The physical size of the unit itself is too big for me to conceal to my concealment standards. The physical size of its optic window is too small to be interesting for competition.
I've a T1 on one of my Glocks as my weather proof setup. Also doesn't conceal worth a damn but at least I dont need to worry about batteries. T1s supposedly break down on pistols but mine is doing ok so far.
Have you actually tried to conceal the ACRO? Seriously if .1” in height is the difference between you being able to conceal the gun or not, then you need to stop dressing like a filthy hipster and buy clothes that actually fit. I have both an RMR and an ACRO and there is no practical difference in concealment ability between the two for me.
If someone writes "cant conceal to own standards of concealment", where does it leave a doubt about the degree of personal experience? I had my hands on a G19 with ACRO before most people did.
1. It absolutely prints worse than RMR. I carry AIWB. Rear edge and angles print out like mofo. With RMR the tallest part is way forward from the slide's end. ACRO effectively creates twice thick/tall slide profile.
2. Even RMR creates excessive printing for me on most days. My demands are complete absence of printing regardless if I stand, sit, move, turn etc wearing casual professional. Iron sighted, and specifically low profile iron sights, G48, p365xl, or J frame is what gets carried on most days.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.