View Full Version : C8 Corvette
Chevy unveiled the C8 Corvette today. It's now a lighter mid engine car with 495 horsepower, has a sub 3 second 0-60, and a base price of under 60k. I think it looks amazing.
https://jalopnik.com/2020-chevrolet-c8-mid-engine-corvette-everything-we-kn-1836485708
It’s [emoji91]
Whatever performance packages they end up putting together are going to be amazing. Rumors of a twin turbo offering even [emoji50]
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ramairthree
07-20-19, 00:55
A mid engine two seater that will outperform any European two seater midengine three times the price or less? And far less time in the shop?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-20-19, 01:30
If the Dollar Store and a Ferrari had a baby... Simply amazing, and this is the base model. A Z06 or ZR1 model- Que Bella donna.
They had to do it. If they were going to keep Camaro and Corvette, they had to differentiate them better. I don't know why anyone would buy a Lotus or an Audi R10. Wait till it eats a 911's lunch.
'Merica.
Recent corvette's were already an amazing thing.
Buddy of mine had a turbo 20.. something and it had some serious get up and run in it.
If the Dollar Store and a Ferrari had a baby... Simply amazing, and this is the base model. A Z06 or ZR1 model- Que Bella donna.
They had to do it. If they were going to keep Camaro and Corvette, they had to differentiate them better. I don't know why anyone would buy a Lotus or an Audi R10. Wait till it eats a 911's lunch.
'Merica.
Amazing car, especially at that money.
No need to differentiate from the Camaro though...
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/gm-is-discontinuing-the-chevrolet-camaro-report-says
A new report says that Chevrolet is killing the Camaro, but not just yet.
The sports car is midway through its*life cycle and won’t be replaced when it ends in 2023, according to musclecarsandtrucks.com.
I love exotic cars, but am not in that tax bracket, but the C7 Z06 was something doable pricewise and with performance to boot. When I started researching the subject, the C8 popped on my radar, and I have been following the subject for a number of months now. The performance the base model is exhibiting is phenomenal and I'm looking forward to seeing what the Z06 version can do. I predict that, if I can sell it to the wife well enough, there's a C8 in my future.
I tried to like the ZO6 when I went looking, but the Vette just wasn't for me & went with a 50th anniversary A10 Camaro. The ZL1 & ZL1 1LE being cranked out now are arguably the best handling sports car on the market sharing a similar 650HP LT4 with the current C7 Z06 if price point needs to be considered & smoking many 6 figure exotics at the track...the current Z06 isn't an option for track rats as the small frontal area and lack of needed heat exchangers is missing & they fixed it with the ZL1. Pretty sure there is a class action lawsuit going on because of it. Great car for the street but I am loving my ZL1 & jonesing to get her to COTA. GM axed the Camaro before & they simply suck ass on marketing the Camaro for some reason when you compare it to the visibility Dodge does with the Charger & Challenger. Don't recall ever seeing a Camaro add or commercial & kinda odd they offer the best engineered / fastest in it's class with no sales support.
I was also surprised to see the C8 stayed with the 6.2 & need to read up on the changes the LT2 offers...I'm with Murphy & cannot wait for the Z06 & ZR1 trim levels to surface & pins / needles for the Nurburgring Times. I'm seeing a $60k starting price for this new C8 but cannot find anything to actually confirm yet. You wouldn't want this car without the mag ride though, it's flat out amazing!! One other thing that amazes me is the new GT500 & C8 are not offered in a manual at launch & both went with a DCT (A7 & A8) vs their joint venture A10 they spent so much $$$$ on to develop jointly. The A10 is outstanding. Times are changing. Dodge needs to get off it's ass and make another car that can turn to keep up with the Stang, Camaro & Vette...we know they can do it with the Viper & that ancient chassis the Charger & Challenger have isn't up for the task in the twistys.
Nightstalker865
07-20-19, 09:19
The car looks amazing with the optional aero. I think it’s a great move for GM and can’t wait to see where they go with it.
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Sub three second 0-60 time on a mid-engine sports car with a dual clutch transmission for $60k that you can actually afford to service. Amazing.
I'd really like to see something similar from Ford. The Ford GT is MUCH more expensive, albeit a more exotic car.
Don Robison
07-20-19, 09:47
My SIL is gonna be mad, he just bought a 2019. LOL
My SIL is gonna be mad, he just bought a 2019. LOL
And it’s value just cratered lol
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Don Robison
07-20-19, 10:21
All Corvettes do anyway. I love them but would never own one.
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SilverBullet432
07-20-19, 11:01
Looks like a $250,000 car from Maranello, but for 60K. The HP to weight ratio is impressive. They’ve done a fantastic job. It would be cool to have one... :cool:
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grizzlyblake
07-20-19, 13:18
And it’s value just cratered lol
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I doubt it. Many of the rich boomers are really hating how non traditional the mid engines are. I know one guy with a recent Z06 who has been getting offers like crazy since the C8 reveal because it's the "last of the real vettes."
donlapalma
07-20-19, 13:20
Made me drool. Hope it turns out to be a winner.
I doubt it. Many of the rich boomers are really hating how non traditional the mid engines are. I know one guy with a recent Z06 who has been getting offers like crazy since the C8 reveal because it's the "last of the real vettes."
Boomers are worst thing ever as usual
I want one in black
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Coal Dragger
07-20-19, 14:08
I doubt it. Many of the rich boomers are really hating how non traditional the mid engines are. I know one guy with a recent Z06 who has been getting offers like crazy since the C8 reveal because it's the "last of the real vettes."
Yep.
Mid engine supercars don’t go well with sandals with socks, white hair, and tooling around 10MPH under the posted speed limit. Therefore 95% of current Corvette owners will not like the C8.
I doubt it. Many of the rich boomers are really hating how non traditional the mid engines are. I know one guy with a recent Z06 who has been getting offers like crazy since the C8 reveal because it's the "last of the real vettes."
I bet.
This has to be equivalent to when the 911 went liquid cooled.
I'm a bit shocked they are going mid-engine...
Yep.
Mid engine supercars don’t go well with sandals with socks, white hair, and tooling around 10MPH under the posted speed limit. Therefore 95% of current Corvette owners will not like the C8.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe Chevrolet should have built their European supercar under another moniker and left the Corvette a front engined American muscle car.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe Chevrolet should have built their European supercar under another moniker and left the Corvette a front engined American muscle car.
Not sure if you’re being serious or not
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Is it really going to be 60k?
When I first saw the spy shots I was thinking GM screwed themselves by pricing themselves out of the market.
I guess we shall see what the street price is.
Looks like a Ferrari.....but much more affordable. The cockpit has an extended strake from the dash towards the back. It just screams...”hey passenger! Don’t talk or even look at me, I am having the ride of my life!” Someday......
Coal Dragger
07-20-19, 17:00
My thoughts exactly. Maybe Chevrolet should have built their European supercar under another moniker and left the Corvette a front engined American muscle car.
No Chevrolet is on the right path with the C8. Boomers will soon be an ever older market segment, more likely to buy a Jazzy Scooter than a sports car of any description.
Figure a decently equipped “enthusiast model” C8 with the Z51 performance package is probably going to be $62-$65K sticker, and have 495hp along with cat like reflexes if GM chassis gurus of late did their thing. So who in their right mind buys a Porsche Cayman/Boxster, Toyota Supra, BMW Z4, or other $58-$65K two seat sports cars when the C8 exists in that price range? I sure as hell wouldn’t.
Imagine what the aftermarket is going to do with the LT2. If the heads will move enough air (guaranteed they will), and the fuel system can keep up; that motor is just a cam, valve springs, and tune away from 550-600hp at the crank depending on how wild of a cam will still give good street manners.
Is it really going to be 60k?
When I first saw the spy shots I was thinking GM screwed themselves by pricing themselves out of the market.
I guess we shall see what the street price is.
Street price is going to be +$20K or more ADM for a while, but then you'll be able to pick one up at Kerbeck for less than $60K OTD. It's possible GM may up the price down the road to offset what have to be pretty substantial R&D costs to change the entire car. I loathe the phrase, but this literally is a game changer. At this price it's also in a class of it's own.
This looks awesome. I’ll try to pick up a used one in a few years.
ramairthree
07-20-19, 17:39
Is it really going to be 60k?
When I first saw the spy shots I was thinking GM screwed themselves by pricing themselves out of the market.
I guess we shall see what the street price is.
My suspicion is that it is going to be 60k.
Plus 5k for better seats, plus 5 K color matched stripes and brake calipers, plus 5k better exhaust and engine compartment decorations, etc.
I like everything but the interior, it's hideous in my opinion. I'd love an Acura NSX, I've drooled over them for years. I did splurge at the end of last year and scoop up a 2018 M3. Got it used with around 10k miles so I saved a ton off original sticker price. It's got all the power I need and then some and still able to cart the family around. Maybe 1 day I can lose the back seat for a mid engine ride...
You won't see near the ADM problems with the launch of the C8 & will be able to buy sticker from most Chevy dealers (besides California)...it's Ford that is notorious for ADM who feel you need to pay them extra for the privilege of buying a car from them.
ramairthree
07-20-19, 18:27
Yep.
Mid engine supercars don’t go well with sandals with socks, white hair, and tooling around 10MPH under the posted speed limit. Therefore 95% of current Corvette owners will not like the C8.
It really is very sad what has happened to the Corvette image.
Overall, roughly say the gen 2, and first six years or so of gen 3 Corvettes, the sticker price was about 4K -6k.
About half the annual income of the era.
And about 30k in today’s dollars.
That young, single new officer pilot, SEAL, Infantry, or recent college grad could hop into his new Corvette. Older family men, but that were cool and stylish and not limited to one car could drive one. Astronauts drove them. Test pilots. Cool people.
For the past few decades the entry price has been equivalent to the average annual salary.
Making it not readily obtainable for single young guys starting out.
Making less likely for cool Dad to have in addition to to the family vehicle.
Finally, at some point those boomers and genX-ers starting hitting 50 and up, with financial stability, empty nests, no need for back seats, and no longer packing up bikes, kayaks, etc. for weekends.
And a call from their doc about their rising PSA, while waiting on the biopsy results from their colonoscopy, while never being able to find their reading glasses, their hair balds and goes gray, their waist now bigger than their chests, with friends getting buried for heart attacks, cancer, etc.
And images and memories of that cool astronaut on TV or poon slaying pilot down the street or bad assGreen Beret Captain Friend’s Dad or the former quarterback with the business degree and corner office all the secretaries swooned over pulling up in their Corvettes.
Even if they made a lot of money, most never had that rock star job or profession or deeds,
But now, finally now, at least they can pull up in a Vette.
In the same manner, a SS Submariner, GMT, etc. was about 200 bucks in the 60s and first half of the 70s. About 1250 bucks in today’s money. They graced many the wrist of a new bad ass, college grad, adventurous man. Look at vintage National Geographic ads. These watches have been priced out of that market for a luxury niche. But that vintage imagery and association still drives many to put one on their wrist, and the luxury spoil yourself nature is a bonus.
But Corvette never developed that favorable luxury, refined, successful reputation. Too many luxury automotive options.
Decades ago, let alone now, outside of watch fans, what is the answer you are going to get from 99% of people for a luxury watch brand.
Corvette is a sexy, cool car for young hotshot handsome manly dudes that chicks dig- driven mainly by old dudes because hot young dudes starting out can’t afford them, and those that can often buy a make women much more commonly associate with luxury and success than the Corvette.
That said, I have been debating getting a better Mustang than the one I have, a better Challenger than the one I has, or something better than the Z28 I had.
My wish for the Ford GT was it was going to be a modern powered replica like the one for about 100k like the one 15 years ago. It instead became a supercar priced deal I would never spend that much on.
I find a car of this design and performance at this price point a much stronger consideration.
I AM in the old guy age group. My need for the external validation and approval of others is nonexistent, and I still get boners and want sex everyday.
Maybe this thing is just in time.
All the same, I mourn for it’s previous image and association.
Coal Dragger
07-20-19, 18:44
You and younger versions of you are the market Chevrolet is after with the C8. They understand the image problem they have, and took the necessary actions to try and change it.
You and younger versions of you are the market Chevrolet is after with the C8. They understand the image problem they have, and took the necessary actions to try and change it.
They're also, I believe, trying to lure crossbrand buyers. Guys who used to buy Porsche, Mercedes... etc. etc., but no longer wish to keep paying the increasing prices for the European brands.
ramairthree
07-20-19, 20:11
You and younger versions of you are the market Chevrolet is after with the C8. They understand the image problem they have, and took the necessary actions to try and change it.
If you were replying to me I am in my early 50s. I still have all my hair, and very hard to find a gray, but need reading glasses. I am beefy puffy craggy rugged looking Josh Brolin / Russel Crowe looking type, not svelte skinny fit Tom Cruise / Brad Pitt pretty boy type. Even if chicks think I am 35-40 instead of in my 50s, it is not going to help the Corvette image any. I may be a better image than a bald guy with a fringe of gray hair and a 46 inch waist, but not by much. My has been wicking T-shirt’s, adventure pants, and sneaker booties of today are the tucked in pastel polo, pleated shorts, and white Velcro new balances of the future. Hot 25 year old women without esteem problems, daddy issues, and financial worries will have no interest in me or my Corvette.
What they need are studly 21-25 year old green berets, pilots, engineers, Econ degree businessmen, etc types interested in them and able to afford them. But...
The male/female dynamic has changed, cultural interest in cool cars has changed, and some financial, educational, and occupational realities have arrived.
Better headlights, air bags, engineered structure support, crumple zones, injection systems far more expensive than a carburetor, power seats, Windows, AC, nav, complicated music, phone, electronics, zone air, emissions standards, have all made base, non luxury performance cars hit more than the 1/2 annual average income price point the Corvette used to occupy.
A 1968 Camaro SS, Mustang GT Fastback, Or Barracuda Formula S was about $3,000 (~21k now) with an average annual income of 8k, pretty close to our 60k now in today’s dollars.
About 37% of average / median annual income bought you a reputable, respectable performance level V8 fun car.
The equivalent Camaro SS, Mustang GT, Or Challenger RT are going to cost you 40k now.
A 1968 Corvette was about $4400.00. Roughly 32k in 2019 money.
Pretty damn close to 50% of average annual income.
But less to the young hot shot college grads buying them.
While the average American annual pay was about 8k in 1968, the starting college graduate was about 9k.
The average/median salary was 8k. The average STARTING salary of a college grad was 9k.
That would be about 66k in today’s dollars.
But the current starting salary of a college grad now is 55k.
I don’t know how much is based on the economy vs current business practices vs going from about a dozen college majors to over ten times that, vs what a degree classically meant then vs now,
But that dynamic has changed.
In 1968, only about 1/8 of American men had a 4 year college degree. Most of which were meaningful in terms of prospects. About 7 1/2% of women did, most obtained to ensure a college educated husband. Keep in mind in 1968 it cost about 1200 bucks a year for room, board, tuition, and books at a perfectly respectable university. That’s about 9k in today’s dollars, the same now is about 25k a year. With about 35% of both men and women having them. The young hot shot with a great job, guaranteed career, and his new college degree with little or no debt and a surplus of interested women driving off the lot in his new Corvette is just not a niche like it was in 1968.
And the Corvette was cool like flying on a trip was cool in 1968, while in 2019 neither the Corvette nor flying on a trip have the same connotations they did back then.
So you have new college grads making less than the average salary, Corvettes costing way more of a percentage of average salary than they used to, AND not being as cool any more.
They were selling about 20,000 gen 2 Corvettes a year to about 195 million Americans. About 40,000 gen 3 Corvettes to 215 million Americans. But have averaged only about 20k/year C6 and C7 Corvettes to around 325 million Americans.
Corvette buyers are like gun buyers. Your most likely sale is to someone that already owns one. They need a younger, cooler, market.
They have made a sexy, technological marvel, with unmatched performance at a price point lower than it seems possible to do nowadays.
But the niche they need is less interested percentage wise in sexy and cool and performance, with occupational outlooks, salaries, and educational debts vastly different than it was 45-55 years ago.
It’s almost like that whole landing on the moon, hot stewardess, cool flying, muscle car era, period had something that can’t be regained no matter how cool the Vette is.
Belmont31R
07-20-19, 20:35
I wouldn’t buy one for at least a year maybe 2. Going from front to mid is a huge change and completely changes the cooling and suspension.
Despite Vette performance for the money people are kidding themselves if they think it’s ‘on par’ with a foreign car. Interior quality is drastically different and resale value on Vettes is terrible. Several of the harder to get Porsche’s sell used for more than new by a lot. I’d rather take a used 4S or GTS than a new Vette for daily use and return on the money if that ever happened lol
PatrioticDisorder
07-20-19, 20:53
C7 Corrvette was amazing, this is even more amazing. I realize the baby boomers may not embrace this due to the mid engine, but sorry to say this, the youngest baby boomers are 55, the oldest baby boomers are 73 years old. 60s/70s is getting a wee bit old for a sports car. This is a car that is built for GenX and even older Gen Y’s. The term “game changer” is way over used, but this may in fact represent a game changer.
Interesting comments on this thread, too many to quote.
I'm pretty sure I saw for sure that GM even came out and said they were specifically targeting the younger, more affluent demographic with this model. It makes sense on their part; doing away with the traditional front engine layout and manual transmission says that this car is new and hot for tech bros, not your daddy's old ideas about 'Murican hot rods... Well, I say tech bros, but at 60k, that's really pretty close to wheelhouse of most young professionals. Personally, I like the styling. If I were spending the money though....probably go towards an off-road rig and about 4 motorcycles. I've always loved the C7 as well though, maybe when they start showing up as trade-ins.....
Coal Dragger
07-20-19, 21:45
I sympathize with the conundrum of the cost of vehicles vs income now compared to the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, but the Corvette is not the only vehicle to suffer this cost inflation. In the grand scheme of things $60K is not unusual for a vehicle, a 1/2 ton pickup or large SUV can easily approach that number and exceed it; and those sell like hot cakes.
Ramairthree is absolutely correct about the difference in automotive priorities among younger auto enthusiasts with money, and on a larger scale the smaller percentage of the younger population that is even interested in cars. I don’t know what the answer to this problem is. For my wife it was getting her behind the wheel of something with over 400hp with a good suspension and responsive steering. She totally gets it now. Unfortunately most non interested people wouldn’t even test drive a sports car given a chance.
There’s another problem in my view of marketing high performance cars in this country, and we’re seeing it happen in Europe now too: overzealous policing. When I was growing up in the mid 90’s a guy could get pulled over doing way over the speed limit and just get a ticket and an ass chewing. Now days you get a felony charge if you’re not careful. So we have all these ridiculously capable cars and for most of us, no where to use them to their potential without exposing ourselves to significant legal jeaopardy.
If they’re more reliable than an R8, Huracan, or GT3 I can see myself in one...
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Coal Dragger
07-20-19, 21:50
C7 Corrvette was amazing, this is even more amazing. I realize the baby boomers may not embrace this due to the mid engine, but sorry to say this, the youngest baby boomers are 55, the oldest baby boomers are 73 years old. 60s/70s is getting a wee bit old for a sports car. This is a car that is built for GenX and even older Gen Y’s. The term “game changer” is way over used, but this may in fact represent a game changer.
I’m in GenX, and have sufficient income for a decent C8. I am seriously contemplating how to make one fit in my stable in a few years. Don’t want to pay scalpers prices or be a beta tester.
Then pump the brakes and wait a year or so.
Coal Dragger
07-20-19, 22:08
That’s the plan.
Probably have to accept the reality that I need a different vehicle type though.
Diamondback
07-20-19, 23:07
That’s the plan.
Probably have to accept the reality that I need a different vehicle type though.
Hard to fit hi-rail gear onto a sportscar... :p though I've long thought that if someone could make appropriate arrangements, running a hi-rail equipped performance car as a hotshot extra would be a hell of a shortcut in a Cannonball Run. :)
Coal Dragger
07-20-19, 23:34
Not to mention putting all the high rail gear on would totally screw up the handling. I’ll leave high rails to the track inspectors.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-21-19, 00:20
Will I only be able to take SBRs and pistols to the range? My McClaren will let me take two supermodels at the same time.... ;)
The GPS based system to protect the nose would be cool if it were cloud based...
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-21-19, 00:51
Man, this car in grey would look amazing. If they come out with one with a manual transmission (spare me the logic lesson, I enjoy manual transmissions) I might have to call the credit union.
Coal Dragger
07-21-19, 01:05
As a matter of fact the configurator has a couple shades of metallic grey...
I also enjoy a manual, but the take rate is so low that I wouldn’t hold my breath on one being offered. Also not sure how satisfying a manual would be in the C8, all those linkages to the transmission way out back to the shift lever in the cabin might make it feel pretty numb and vague. Same for the clutch pedal. I know it can be pulled off, as the Europeans and Japanese managed it, but also at a higher cost.
Gen 2 if I was to get one
But more a Porsche guy first :)
Never been a better fan of anything but a few early years but for what other stuff cost this looks pretty game changing and sure it would be insane once they start putting turbos in and tuning them
Hoping brakes and suspension is designed to handle future performance
ramairthree
07-21-19, 02:28
I sympathize with the conundrum of the cost of vehicles vs income now compared to the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, but the Corvette is not the only vehicle to suffer this cost inflation. In the grand scheme of things $60K is not unusual for a vehicle, a 1/2 ton pickup or large SUV can easily approach that number and exceed it; and those sell like hot cakes.
Ramairthree is absolutely correct about the difference in automotive priorities among younger auto enthusiasts with money, and on a larger scale the smaller percentage of the younger population that is even interested in cars. I don’t know what the answer to this problem is. For my wife it was getting her behind the wheel of something with over 400hp with a good suspension and responsive steering. She totally gets it now. Unfortunately most non interested people wouldn’t even test drive a sports car given a chance.
There’s another problem in my view of marketing high performance cars in this country, and we’re seeing it happen in Europe now too: overzealous policing. When I was growing up in the mid 90’s a guy could get pulled over doing way over the speed limit and just get a ticket and an ass chewing. Now days you get a felony charge if you’re not careful. So we have all these ridiculously capable cars and for most of us, no where to use them to their potential without exposing ourselves to significant legal jeaopardy.
Oh yes. It applies to a lot more than a Corvette and a Camaro and cars in general.
In 1968 a SS Camaro, SS Rolex Sub, and year of tuition, room, board, and books at a four year university would take about 1900, 125, and 750 hours of minimum wage respectively.
Now would be about 5300, 1200, and 3300 hours.
Median income for an American four year university graduate has gone from above, to the same as, to now slightly lower than the median American income.
In 1968 about the median annual income would have bought Junior four years at university, a new Mustang GT fastback, and a SS Sub or GMT as sweet graduation presents at about 8k. Then his median income, being one of the about 12,5% of college graduates would have been 9k a year instead of 8k.
Now, you would have coughed up 150k to get Junior a four year degree, Mustang GT, and SS Sub. This would require about 2.5 times the median income now of 60k, and median income for one of the 35% of the population with a degree is 55K.
If junior is a fit, studly, hard working, determined dude with determination and 98+ percentile IQ he can knock out four years as a SEAL, Ranger Bn guy, Green Beret, etc., then get his degree on the GIBill, start at 75k, be over 100k in a few years, and then MBA or MD his way to some 350k a year and more and not think twice about it. All of the above are just a few more hurdles he will crush to knock out the American Dream.
If junior is an average IQ guy with average physical potential and average grit - he has it way harder than the same cat did in 1968. Not even looking at benefits, med coverage, legal and societal pitfalls, meritocracy replaced by quotas and social justice, company and employer turmoil, retirement, etc.
It’s like someone took the American Dream, a fair piñata you used to be able to work your ass off for and swing for the wall and hit the shit out of, then reap the spoils-
And put it real high up, you can’t even hit it if you jump. You have to climb the tree, hang from the branch by one arm and hit it with the other, and then get back down and try to get some leftover candy the dudes on the ground were scarfing while you were still up in the tree.
Sooner or later the dude in the tree is going to get pissed, and instead of climbing down he is going to jump right on the guys stealing his candy and then start swinging the bat at them.
Not sure if you’re being serious or not
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Retirement only a year or two off. Looks like my present to myself will have to be a used vette. Hell - they haven’t really looked like a vette (for many of us) for over a decade.
geezer john
Street price is going to be +$20K or more ADM for a while, but then you'll be able to pick one up at Kerbeck for less than $60K OTD. It's possible GM may up the price down the road to offset what have to be pretty substantial R&D costs to change the entire car. I loathe the phrase, but this literally is a game changer. At this price it's also in a class of it's own.
Great. Have to go back to NJ
I honestly didn’t think it would be less than 100k. So GM either figured out how to make a Fiero worth 60k or they really made a true mid engine super car for 1/6th the price.
They're just making more. Economy of scale. Ferrari has to price the way they do because their production numbers are very low compared to Chevrolet.
They're just making more. Economy of scale. Ferrari has to price the way they do because their production numbers are very low compared to Chevrolet.
Ferrari has a history of being discriminatory in who they sell too. I've heard that to get a Ferrari in the early days, an interview with Enzo Ferrari was sometimes required and if he didn't like you or deem you worthy enough, then no Ferrari for you. Lamborghini came about because Ferrari wouldn't sell to him because he saw him as unworthy of his cars. Companies like Ferrari, Lamborghini and others want to be seen as exclusive, and not for the masses. They're enthusiast cars that require a level of regular maintenance that is obnoxious to most. Corvette is capable of competing in that arena, but ostensibly for the every man. Hence the "affordability" compared to the europeans. I like what I saw in the C7 Corvette, but I think is the one I'll start saving for.
Ferrari has a history of being discriminatory in who they sell too. I've heard that to get a Ferrari in the early days, an interview with Enzo Ferrari was sometimes required and if he didn't like you or deem you worthy enough, then no Ferrari for you. Lamborghini came about because Ferrari wouldn't sell to him because he saw him as unworthy of his cars. Companies like Ferrari, Lamborghini and others want to be seen as exclusive, and not for the masses. They're enthusiast cars that require a level of regular maintenance that is obnoxious to most. Corvette is capable of competing in that arena, but ostensibly for the every man. Hence the "affordability" compared to the europeans. I like what I saw in the C7 Corvette, but I think is the one I'll start saving for.
To buy an Enzo, you had to own an F-40 and another recent model Ferrari to get on the list. For that money I'd far rather have a Veyron. Fortunately, I will never be in danger of owning any of those Snooty McSnooter cars.
Diamondback
07-21-19, 13:10
To buy an Enzo, you had to own an F-40 and another recent model Ferrari to get on the list. For that money I'd far rather have a Veyron. Fortunately, I will never be in danger of owning any of those Snooty McSnooter cars.
Pfft. For that kind of money, even though it's not 'performance,' I'd rather have a Duesenberg. :p
Coal Dragger
07-21-19, 13:19
For that kind of money I could buy a pretty nice airplane, and get a pilots license.
Diamondback
07-21-19, 13:26
For that kind of money I could buy a pretty nice airplane, and get a pilots license.
True, or a very nice Class A RV, including a tow-behind small SUV for grocery runs.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-21-19, 13:52
This doesn’t compete with Ferrari’s, it competes with boats, 4x4 monster trucks, a lake house or a plane.
ramairthree
07-21-19, 15:06
This doesn’t compete with Ferrari’s, it competes with boats, 4x4 monster trucks, a lake house or a plane.
That’s very pertinent and insightful actually.
Performance comparisons aside,
I suspect a ton of Corvette owners are the have a fishing or ski boat, big truck, camp, trips to the lake or beach, Harley, and/0r some a little doc/lawyer killer type plane sort of vibe.
The kind of guy whose annual income equals a Ferrari 488GTB paired with a 911Turbo and a LX570 on the side,
Let alone the kind of guy who thinks that is chump change,
Is not going to be dying to grab one.
Unless they are a model fan, bang for buck budget, performance enthusiast, etc.
I have heard this is a problem for top model Challenger, Mustang, and Camaro marketing as well.
There are enthusiasts that admire performance or are model fans that will drop 70k on a top of the line version.
But most people dropping 70k on their daily driver are going to buy an obviously 70k car,
Not a model others are driving around in a 25k version of.
Lamborghini came about because Ferrari wouldn't sell to him because he saw him as unworthy of his cars.
The version of that story I heard is that Lambo went to Ferrari with an idea to improve the clutch which keep failing on the Ferrari that Lambo owned. Ferrari told him to stick with making tractors, which was Lamborghini's business at the time and an Italian grudge was born.
But most people dropping 70k on their daily driver are going to buy an obviously 70k car,
Not a model others are driving around in a 25k version of.
This right here...
The version of that story I heard is that Lambo went to Ferrari with an idea to improve the clutch which keep failing on the Ferrari that Lambo owned. Ferrari told him to stick with making tractors, which was Lamborghini's business at the time and an Italian grudge was born.
This is accurate.
Yep.
Mid engine supercars don’t go well with sandals with socks, white hair, and tooling around 10MPH under the posted speed limit. Therefore 95% of current Corvette owners will not like the C8.
So inexpensive a Railroader could afford it. Now if them 400 pounders that call themselves engineers can figure a way to fit between the seat and steering wheel.
I kid, I kid.
ramairthree
07-21-19, 17:29
Actually, the chief engineer on the project would have been a teenager during the peak C2/C3 glory days,
This must be a fantastic journey for him.
He has been GM engineer/B.S. Mech/AeroSpace about 40 plus years.
While I am sure it would have much dry filler,
I would love a detailed biography on him.
Dealing with catalytic converter, smoke hose, worse gas crushing performance, early improvements in carbs, to early fuel injection chip based computers, a whif of return of performance, to a steady increase.
To buy an Enzo, you had to own an F-40 and another recent model Ferrari to get on the list. For that money I'd far rather have a Veyron. Fortunately, I will never be in danger of owning any of those Snooty McSnooter cars.
Nor will I, likely, ever have that worry. Used Ferrari is "affordable", but I like my convenience and having to send my car out to another city to be fixed wouldn't be convenient for me. We have dozens of Chevrolet dealerships around, so getting a Corvette fixed would be easier.
The version of that story I heard is that Lambo went to Ferrari with an idea to improve the clutch which keep failing on the Ferrari that Lambo owned. Ferrari told him to stick with making tractors, which was Lamborghini's business at the time and an Italian grudge was born.
You are correct and I must have misremembered what I had heard.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a25169632/lamborghini-supercars-exist-because-of-a-tractor/
I have heard this is a problem for top model Challenger, Mustang, and Camaro marketing as well.
There are enthusiasts that admire performance or are model fans that will drop 70k on a top of the line version.
But most people dropping 70k on their daily driver are going to buy an obviously 70k car,
Not a model others are driving around in a 25k version of.
You are seeing a variety of opinions across the spectrum with the release of the C8 in regards to what perspective buyers are rationalizing for a possible future purchase or going another route & kind hard to nail down. One of the more interesting comments I found was here on M4 regarding vette traditionalists not wanting a mid engine platform...I never even considered that angle perhaps because it had been rumored it was coming for so long & I decided to get some feedback & started a thread on Camaro6 asking feedback if members thought a percentage of vette owners may consider the upper end Camaro line & hopefully boost sales & save the Gen7 due to the mid. There are a ton of opinions, but oddly nobody addressed the mid engine as a consideration pro/con?? Pricing, performance & interior room took over the talking points. Again, no absolutes & all the various chatter this car brings is kinda fun to see.
A loaded out SS is going to run $50k with the extra $10k to get into an entry vette being both a hindrance & a golden opportunity to own...to me, the 'entry' ZL1 with the LT4 & MRC is a smarter way to spend your $60k window & a sharper / meaner looking car (subjective). I wouldn't want the C8 without MRC & curious to see what the Z51 will sticker. Many just want a chance to own a vette & tickled with the base model & dig the styling. Others can't justify the extra $10k.
Performance is always going to be in the conversation & hope GM takes these to the Ring' soon...you gotta give GM kudos here & wish they had sticker costs next to the bragging right. When you look at the company surrounding the vette & Camaro on this list, it's pretty amazing what you get for the coin.
https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/
Interior room in a daily driver killed it for some & bunch mention the back seats which are superficial IMO...mine stay folded down & you got quite a bit of cargo. I'm 6' / 200 & felt cramped when I test drove the Z06 & the Recaros in the ZL1 are super cozy. I have a company truck & the last thing I want to do is run errands in the damn thing after lining in it 5 days a week. I can fit several packaged long guns for shipment no problem in the Camaro & thought the trunk of the C8 barely holding a set of clubs was pretty clever marketing. This alone will keep some in the stang, camaro & dodge hot rods.
Die hard vette owners don't care about any this IMO & are going to own a vette for what it is...one of my managers is 6'4" & must be at least 275 is in a C7 & not sure how he does it. Current Dodge owners are content with a big heavy straight-line roomy muscle car & I still want a ride in an AWD Jeep TrackHawk!! Most of your upper end Ford buyers aren't going to consider anything but the blue oval & will always defend the 350 & 500 to the bitter end regardless if the competition has better track times. It's really a good time to be an enthusiast & blessed with a bunch of options. Still cringing at the thought of electric creeping up on me & just no romance with no throaty rumble, but reckon it will be here rather soon.
Gotta love the younger generation who thinks this car was made for them, yet almost none of them provided any input to GM on it.
On other hand, everyone I know 60 and older, most multi-vette owners, who have been involved in the Vette program for decades (like the build your own engine program), have told me they have been asking GM for this for decade or more. Of the 6 I have talked to, all already have one reserved before announcement.
I just saw a vid on the bookface with a test driver in a new Vette with no camo. He was speaking to some bystanders and said he's hit 0-60 in 2.8 seconds. That's only tenth of a second off the 2018 911 GT2 RS time of 2.7.
If the Dollar Store and a Ferrari had a baby... Simply amazing, and this is the base model. A Z06 or ZR1 model- Que Bella donna.
They had to do it. If they were going to keep Camaro and Corvette, they had to differentiate them better. I don't know why anyone would buy a Lotus or an Audi R10. Wait till it eats a 911's lunch.
'Merica.
I know why they would by them: competition heritage, build quality, quality of materials and resale value.
If you offer me either I’d take a Porsche over the Corvette - any day.
That said, the C8 is nice.
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I tried to like the ZO6 when I went looking, but the Vette just wasn't for me & went with a 50th anniversary A10 Camaro. The ZL1 & ZL1 1LE being cranked out now are arguably the best handling sports car on the market sharing a similar 650HP LT4 with the current C7 Z06 if price point needs to be considered & smoking many 6 figure exotics at the track...the current Z06 isn't an option for track rats as the small frontal area and lack of needed heat exchangers is missing & they fixed it with the ZL1. Pretty sure there is a class action lawsuit going on because of it. Great car for the street but I am loving my ZL1 & jonesing to get her to COTA. GM axed the Camaro before & they simply suck ass on marketing the Camaro for some reason when you compare it to the visibility Dodge does with the Charger & Challenger. Don't recall ever seeing a Camaro add or commercial & kinda odd they offer the best engineered / fastest in it's class with no sales support.
I was also surprised to see the C8 stayed with the 6.2 & need to read up on the changes the LT2 offers...I'm with Murphy & cannot wait for the Z06 & ZR1 trim levels to surface & pins / needles for the Nurburgring Times. I'm seeing a $60k starting price for this new C8 but cannot find anything to actually confirm yet. You wouldn't want this car without the mag ride though, it's flat out amazing!! One other thing that amazes me is the new GT500 & C8 are not offered in a manual at launch & both went with a DCT (A7 & A8) vs their joint venture A10 they spent so much $$$$ on to develop jointly. The A10 is outstanding. Times are changing. Dodge needs to get off it's ass and make another car that can turn to keep up with the Stang, Camaro & Vette...we know they can do it with the Viper & that ancient chassis the Charger & Challenger have isn't up for the task in the twistys.
7 minutes 18.xx seconds. [emoji41]
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No Chevrolet is on the right path with the C8. Boomers will soon be an ever older market segment, more likely to buy a Jazzy Scooter than a sports car of any description.
Figure a decently equipped “enthusiast model” C8 with the Z51 performance package is probably going to be $62-$65K sticker, and have 495hp along with cat like reflexes if GM chassis gurus of late did their thing. So who in their right mind buys a Porsche Cayman/Boxster, Toyota Supra, BMW Z4, or other $58-$65K two seat sports cars when the C8 exists in that price range? I sure as hell wouldn’t.
Imagine what the aftermarket is going to do with the LT2. If the heads will move enough air (guaranteed they will), and the fuel system can keep up; that motor is just a cam, valve springs, and tune away from 550-600hp at the crank depending on how wild of a cam will still give good street manners.
I’d take the Cayman GT4.
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I’d take the Cayman GT4.
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The Cayman is very nice, I just drove a GTS and it stickered for almost 90k, the GT4 starts at 100k. These cars are not in the same price category as 60k Vette. In fact, after putting a few hundred miles on the Cayman, I started looking for a used one. Since the prices are outrageous, that led me to looking at C7 Grand sports.
If the grand sport can already out perform a Carrera S, what’s the C8 going to be capable of? I’m hoping for some better deals on C7s so that I can get a trailer park rocket.
IDK, all this I'll take [insert whatever German/Italian/British car here] doesn't factor into account the cost of ownership. Let the electronic suspension go out in a Range Rover, which it will, then pay to fix it. There's something to be said for domestic automakers. A BMW with a vanos valve? Take it to the dealer and it's a B.O.A.T....Bout another thousand.
We're to the point with 0-60 times that no person can reasonably tell the difference. Its fast AF. Cost of ownership for Chevrolet places that level of performance into the realm of reality for your average working guy who saved and spent wisely. to paraphrase Jay Leno, he always said that with Corvette there isn't the disdain that you get when people see you driving one vs a exotic car.
For those that don't already watch it, Leno's YouTube channel is one of the best for automotive enthusiasts.
IDK, all this I'll take [insert whatever German/Italian/British car here] doesn't factor into account the cost of ownership. Let the electronic suspension go out in a Range Rover, which it will, then pay to fix it. There's something to be said for domestic automakers. A BMW with a vanos valve? Take it to the dealer and it's a B.O.A.T....Bout another thousand.
We're to the point with 0-60 times that no person can reasonably tell the difference. Its fast AF. Cost of ownership for Chevrolet places that level of performance into the realm of reality for your average working guy who saved and spent wisely. to paraphrase Jay Leno, he always said that with Corvette there isn't the disdain that you get when people see you driving one vs a exotic car.
For those that don't already watch it, Leno's YouTube channel is one of the best for automotive enthusiasts.
That’s how I’m feeling now. I love the European cars and would love a Porsche, but I can’t afford the cost of entry for a new one. That leaves used with all the possible repair bills or the collector price tags.
Corvettes carry there own stereotypes as we have seen.
Coal Dragger
07-22-19, 00:34
So inexpensive a Railroader could afford it. Now if them 400 pounders that call themselves engineers can figure a way to fit between the seat and steering wheel.
I kid, I kid.
LOL.
Need motivation to keep hitting the gym? Watch a 400lb fat man try to climb on a locomotive or use the head in the nose.
Coal Dragger
07-22-19, 00:50
I’d take the Cayman GT4.
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Yeah OK. Show me one for less than $90K. My suspicion is that a well equipped C8 is going to be around $65-$70K sticker, and less if we are talking an actual transaction price. The Cayman GT4 is going to cost a lot more than that, while being slower, and more expensive to maintain.
Porsche products are overpriced for what you get in most cases; for the record I love Porsche products but I’m also aware of the price gouging that Porsche engages in. Furthermore; for those of us who don’t live anywhere near a dealership, owning a Porsche and keeping it serviced properly would pose major issues. Personally I am unwilling to drive 5-6 hours down to Denver to get a car serviced. Make no mistake, if it’s made in Germany and is an automobile, there’s a very good chance it’s not going to be particularly reliable. So you will be seeing the shop, if you live close by that’s not as big a deal but it is for me.
ramairthree
07-22-19, 01:16
Gotta love the younger generation who thinks this car was made for them, yet almost none of them provided any input to GM on it.
On other hand, everyone I know 60 and older, most multi-vette owners, who have been involved in the Vette program for decades (like the build your own engine program), have told me they have been asking GM for this for decade or more. Of the 6 I have talked to, all already have one reserved before announcement.
The median age of Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini buyers comes out around late 40s.
The current median age of a Corvette owner has been 61 for about a decade.
A decade before that it was 55.
This was not the case in the late 60s/early 70s.
Over the past decade, they have averaged about 20k sold a year.
Lamborghini only sells about 1000 a year. At a much different price point.
Porsche is selling over twice as many cars a year in the US.
Ferrari about 2k a year, again at a much different price point.
Mercedes and BMW sell about 300-350k cars here a year.
This demonstrates a couple of problems.
The average Corvette buyer is older than the average Lincoln, Cadillac, Bugatti, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW buyer.
If a car is being know as for old as shit buyers, and your average age is higher, that is not good.
It is especially not good when when your car is supposed to associated with a premier, luxury purchase, but the makes from other luxury brands are selling ten times as many cars.
When you use logic to explain cost as the issue, but far more expensive performance cars have a much younger average buyer, it falls apart.
It needs to be performance enough to make people’s jaws drop. They have done that.
It needs to be prestigious enough people see it as a luxury and ego model.
But it needs to be inexpensive enough young people can buy it.
Two diametrically opposed 180 degree opposite tasks.
Young people wanting, buying, and lusting after your stuff is important. They have a lot of potential as repeat customers.
A huge percentage of Corvette buyers are repeat owners.
You can sell way more Corvettes to a guy that starts buying at 25 than someone at 65.
Can they make it cool?
I don’t know. An American just launched to the ISS for the 50th moon landing anniversary. A West Pointer MD tabbed combat diver astronaut. Paint one red, white, and blue and give it to him when he comes home.
But wait.
That’s just some Boomer, gen x model racist patriarchy shit.
Give one to Black Widow in her new movie. But wait, she’s just some racist hetero that inappropriately subjugated anime culture.
Give one to black panther in his new movie. There will be others turned off.
There seems to be no cohesive way to make it cool.
Adrenaline_6
07-22-19, 08:50
What Corvette and GM should have done is give one to Maverick! Instant coolness!
LOL.
Need motivation to keep hitting the gym? Watch a 400lb fat man try to climb on a locomotive or use the head in the nose.
Here’s the thought process of people that work for the RR.
Hit the gym??? That’s what gastric bypass is for!!!
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-22-19, 12:50
If demographics are Corvette's biggest problem, the launch video was completely wrong. Maybe they were reinforcing their base, but they people they should be targeting won't remember the Challenger exploding, let alone the moon landing.
Can they make it cool?
I don’t know. An American just launched to the ISS for the 50th moon landing anniversary. A West Pointer MD tabbed combat diver astronaut. Paint one red, white, and blue and give it to him when he comes home.
But wait.
That’s just some Boomer, gen x model racist patriarchy shit.
Give one to Black Widow in her new movie. But wait, she’s just some racist hetero that inappropriately subjugated anime culture.
Give one to black panther in his new movie. There will be others turned off.
There seems to be no cohesive way to make it cool.
GM could not capitalize on the Apollo 12 crew all having Corvettes....
Wondering if the mid-engine was a request by the racing team?
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What Corvette and GM should have done is give one to Maverick! Instant coolness!
Now that would be a cool way to launch the C8. He can do for GM what he did for the Kawasaki Ninja 35 years ago.
Except he's riding a Kawasaki Ninja H2 in the trailer.
Adrenaline_6
07-22-19, 15:33
Except he's riding a Kawasaki Ninja H2 in the trailer.
Yup....hence the words "should have".
That’s how I’m feeling now. I love the European cars and would love a Porsche, but I can’t afford the cost of entry for a new one. That leaves used with all the possible repair bills or the collector price tags.
Corvettes carry there own stereotypes as we have seen.
Stereotypes are cheaper to buy and maintain than a foreign performance car though. :)
ramairthree
07-22-19, 15:55
GM could not capitalize on the Apollo 12 crew all having Corvettes....
1971 to 1974 had several issues that killed American performance car glory yeras
The C1 averaged about 6.5k sales per year.
The C2, retrospectively the most lauded, about 25k per year.
The C3, also occurring during the peak performance classic years before gas, smog, exhaust, compression, insurance raised their head etc. - debuted at about 35k, waned, resurged midlife to over 50k a year, and exited averaging about 40k.
The C4 came on the scene at over 50k and soon became a 20k a year car.
The C5 averaged mid 30s.
The C6 struggled to stay in the teens after the first few years.
Selling 12k Corvettes mid model run to a population of 282 million
Compared to selling 40k mid model at the deepest slump of performance to 216 million Americans is a huge issue.
The C7 numbers should be familiar to those looking at the
C8.
The C3 was weak in 70 and 71 but bounced back hard, doubling sales.
LOL.
Need motivation to keep hitting the gym? Watch a 400lb fat man try to climb on a locomotive or use the head in the nose.
Not even that. Motivation to hit the gym is watching sedentary people cross the street when they misjudge traffic...that awkward stride is a muster of all the forward movement they can manage. You are literally watching natural selection with traffic laws.
ramairthree
07-23-19, 12:20
If demographics are Corvette's biggest problem, the launch video was completely wrong. Maybe they were reinforcing their base, but they people they should be targeting won't remember the Challenger exploding, let alone the moon landing.
Yep.
Guys that watched the moon landing in grade school or lasted after used C2s and new C3s when they were teenagers are now the current average age of of a Corvette buyer.
Guys that were teenagers mourning the death of the muscle car era and lamenting the available crop of 80s car’s performance were in HS during the Challenger are now about 50. Awash in a current broad selection of luxury and performance vehicles.
Guys around 40 and younger won’t have the childhood memories of the musclecar era, or nostalgic ties to how damn cool a corvette used to be.
The percentage of 30 and under interested in driving, cars, performance, etc. is a fraction of what it used to be.
And are indoctrinated by public schools, mainstream media, etc. that being a Corvette owning, fighter pilot trying to get into the astronaut program, with a couple of kills under his belt, and a few bar fights to his name is some toxic, undesirable, horrible Throwback. And faced with a bunch of legal repercussions.
Cars cost more in terms of median income, minimum wage, etc. than ever.
Making a performance car more affordable to younger buyers is tough.
The onslaught against cool stuff like performance cars from numerous fronts makes it very hard to offer a product with widespread cool appeal.
Making something a luxury prestigious item while still being affordable to younger cool demographics is tough.
With media and social and regulatory pressure trying to force your product out of existence and make it socially unacceptable.
Sort of like with cigarettes and guns.
Yeah OK. Show me one for less than $90K. My suspicion is that a well equipped C8 is going to be around $65-$70K sticker, and less if we are talking an actual transaction price. The Cayman GT4 is going to cost a lot more than that, while being slower, and more expensive to maintain.
Porsche products are overpriced for what you get in most cases; for the record I love Porsche products but I’m also aware of the price gouging that Porsche engages in. Furthermore; for those of us who don’t live anywhere near a dealership, owning a Porsche and keeping it serviced properly would pose major issues. Personally I am unwilling to drive 5-6 hours down to Denver to get a car serviced. Make no mistake, if it’s made in Germany and is an automobile, there’s a very good chance it’s not going to be particularly reliable. So you will be seeing the shop, if you live close by that’s not as big a deal but it is for me.
My response is to those who think that the Vette is as well engineered and constructed as the Porsche. They are not as durable, either. Those are the facts.
Worked at GM Powertrain Division in the early 90’s.
Corvette Group took Vettes to Stuttgart, GERMANY (Porsche) and ran the cars on Porsche’s durability track. When I asked how well they did I was told they did “horrible”; “they fell apart”.
They are better now - and so are ze Germans.
We all love performance and if I really could afford it I’d probably purchase a 700 bhp Porsche GT2 RS. It would likely be the death of me.
The reality?
A Cayman GT4 provides all the performance I could ever grow to use.
I’d like to tell you I can exploit 75 to 85 percent out of a GT3 chassis but I’d be a liar.
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Wondering if the mid-engine was a request by the racing team?
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I was at GM in 1990 and they had experimental mid-engined Vettes way back then.
Two things: they felt they could not put any more power to the ground with the front mid engine configuration. They apparently wish to play in the 700 bhp silly world as opposed to upping the quality of the car to truly rival the Germans and reliability approaching the Japanese. It needs no more power.
Racing
The race teams are probably smiling. I would be. There will be some challenges but there always are and the mid-engine layout is better than what they had. Nice thing is that it has a new rear suspension!
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The median age of Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini buyers comes out around late 40s.
The current median age of a Corvette owner has been 61 for about a decade.
A decade before that it was 55.
This was not the case in the late 60s/early 70s.
Over the past decade, they have averaged about 20k sold a year.
Lamborghini only sells about 1000 a year. At a much different price point.
Porsche is selling over twice as many cars a year in the US.
Ferrari about 2k a year, again at a much different price point.
Mercedes and BMW sell about 300-350k cars here a year.
This demonstrates a couple of problems.
The average Corvette buyer is older than the average Lincoln, Cadillac, Bugatti, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW buyer.
If a car is being know as for old as shit buyers, and your average age is higher, that is not good.
It is especially not good when when your car is supposed to associated with a premier, luxury purchase, but the makes from other luxury brands are selling ten times as many cars.
When you use logic to explain cost as the issue, but far more expensive performance cars have a much younger average buyer, it falls apart.
It needs to be performance enough to make people’s jaws drop. They have done that.
It needs to be prestigious enough people see it as a luxury and ego model.
But it needs to be inexpensive enough young people can buy it.
Two diametrically opposed 180 degree opposite tasks.
Young people wanting, buying, and lusting after your stuff is important. They have a lot of potential as repeat customers.
A huge percentage of Corvette buyers are repeat owners.
You can sell way more Corvettes to a guy that starts buying at 25 than someone at 65.
Can they make it cool?
I don’t know. An American just launched to the ISS for the 50th moon landing anniversary. A West Pointer MD tabbed combat diver astronaut. Paint one red, white, and blue and give it to him when he comes home.
But wait.
That’s just some Boomer, gen x model racist patriarchy shit.
Give one to Black Widow in her new movie. But wait, she’s just some racist hetero that inappropriately subjugated anime culture.
Give one to black panther in his new movie. There will be others turned off.
There seems to be no cohesive way to make it cool.
Just send it to me, pay for tires, brakes and insurance and repairs and I’ll be their biggest ad.
[emoji38][emoji106]
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Porsche dealerships are few and far between - true. But the MAJORITY of all the late model vettes I’ve ever known of via friends and acquaintances has spent WEEKS IN THE SHOP the first year or two of ownership!!!!! Very frustrating, to say the least - especially in good driving weather. I could never bring myself to buy such a complicated mass of computerized technology! Yes - a F 150 is theoretically just as complicated, but vettes actually spend SO much time in the shop! As usual - YMMV
geezer john
I was at GM in 1990 and they had experimental mid-engined Vettes way back then.
Two things: they felt they could not put any more power to the ground with the front mid engine configuration. They apparently wish to play in the 700 bhp silly world as opposed to upping the quality of the car to truly rival the Germans and reliability approaching the Japanese. It needs no more power.
Racing
The race teams are probably smiling. I would be. There will be some challenges but there always are and the mid-engine layout is better than what they had. Nice thing is that it has a new rear suspension!
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThanks for the insight on that. Didn't know they were looking at it back then.
I followed the ALMS series pretty well throughout the early 2000s. Forget exactly when but for a few seasons they were the only ones in the GT1 class but they still kept on racing (practice for Sebring and LeMans). Saw a special one time where they said the production car engineers would take feedback from them such as ditching the flip up head lights. Or adding other ventilation into the bodywork. This let the race team better adapt the race cars.
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I’m not sure comparing any GM car from the 90’s is fair.
The current JD power (if you put any stock in that) puts Chevrolet as one of the top brands for reliability right behind Porsche. It also puts the new 911 as the most reliable model.
I think it was Car and driver that had a bad time with a long term 2014 vette, but the 2017 was great except for what seems like weak wheels over 40,000 miles.
I’m not sure the vette is any less reliable than any other new car and I take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt. And it sure as hell is a lot less expensive to fix than a Porsche.
Although if I had the cash....
I’m not sure comparing any GM car from the 90’s is fair.
The current JD power (if you put any stock in that) puts Chevrolet as one of the top brands for reliability right behind Porsche. It also puts the new 911 as the most reliable model.
I think it was Car and driver that had a bad time with a long term 2014 vette, but the 2017 was great except for what seems like weak wheels over 40,000 miles.
I’m not sure the vette is any less reliable than any other new car and I take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt. And it sure as hell is a lot less expensive to fix than a Porsche.
Although if I had the cash....
The Vette and Camaro historically have been the LEAST reliable cars for GM but have the HIGHEST customer satisfaction (obviously).
Squeaks & rattles are less of an issue with the C7 but it’s not a 911 interior-wise and neither is the body structure but it’s not $100K, either.
I’ve always liked the Grand Sport.
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The interior on the new vettes is much improved, not new 911 standards.
I don’t think the 911 interiors were that great 10years ago though.
And again that price difference is huge.
I’m not sure comparing any GM car from the 90’s is fair.
I was going to post this exact same thing. The 1990s were 30 years ago...a little over a quarter of a century.
Here's Leno taking a look at the new 'vette.
https://youtu.be/NZGCJu2OaAg
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-24-19, 18:03
I was going to post this exact same thing. The 1990s were 30 years ago...a little over a quarter of a century.
No it wasn't, it was just a blink of time- hey, wait a minute; where did my middle age go?
I feel your pain there. The 1990s seem like last Thursday.
I really want to see Doug Demuro get his hands on the C8. A full Leno video would be good to. One of his bests was with the 2006ish Ford GT with its designer.
The interior on the new vettes is much improved, not new 911 standards.
I don’t think the 911 interiors were that great 10years ago though.
And again that price difference is huge.
The layout is simple - as it SHOULD BE. But materials were way better than what Chevy is using on the C7.
But for the price of the Vette it’s a good car unless you plan on doing a lot of Open Track events and things like wheel bearings become issues. Small things but choosing to spend, day, another $1,500 on the car and $1,500 on the interior and the car would be close enough yet still be tens of thousands less expensive than a Porsche. Again, it does not need any more performance enhancements.
Chasing Porsche’s GT Models, Ferrari Specials and Lamborghini is stupid. Their sales do not follow anything resembling “the norm”. Though Ford was able to move the Ford GT (I worked on the 2005 car) and the latest variant.
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Here's Leno taking a look at the new 'vette.
https://youtu.be/NZGCJu2OaAg
I still want a z28 but I’m really liking this.
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I still want a z28 but I’m really liking this.
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The chatter on the Z28 is insane on camaro6 & do hope GM sneaks something in...the Z28 is traditionally naturally aspirated & many enthusiast are hoping for a larger displacement than the 6.2, while others are saying the 14 was a disaster & the ZL1 / ZL1 1LE has replaced any chance of it returning. I'm sure many don't recall, but the last Z28 was a nothing but a legal track monster. AC & a stereo with ONE speaker were optional. I'm just not sure there is enough demand for the Z28 if they hold the same standards vs what the ZL1 brings to the table with comforts & forced induction. Personally, I hope they do something for nothing other than tradition & keeping the name alive, but not very optimistic unless they alter the Z28's tradition some to reach more of the masses.
The layout is simple - as it SHOULD BE. But materials were way better than what Chevy is using on the C7.
But for the price of the Vette it’s a good car unless you plan on doing a lot of Open Track events and things like wheel bearings become issues. Small things but choosing to spend, day, another $1,500 on the car and $1,500 on the interior and the car would be close enough yet still be tens of thousands less expensive than a Porsche. Again, it does not need any more performance enhancements.
Chasing Porsche’s GT Models, Ferrari Specials and Lamborghini is stupid. Their sales do not follow anything resembling “the norm”. Though Ford was able to move the Ford GT (I worked on the 2005 car) and the latest variant.
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I agree on this, the corvette doesn’t need to be faster, but a little money for the interior would go a long way. I think it is pretty nice in the C7, but a quality improvement would be the best thing they could do.
No manual, no care.
Automatic's are boring. Paddle shifters are boring. 1.2g's of grip is boring. Unless your on a road course going for 1.21g's.
The funnest cars to drive hard are the ones in the middle. RWD or AWD, good brakes, predictable manners, enough or slightly too much power for the chassis. Affordable, pleasing to the eye, paid for, with Great exhaust sounds.
Also, a little forgiving when you dont do it right.
No manual, no care.
Automatic's are boring. Paddle shifters are boring. 1.2g's of grip is boring. Unless your on a road course going for 1.21g's.
The funnest cars to drive hard are the ones in the middle. RWD or AWD, good brakes, predictable manners, enough or slightly too much power for the chassis. Affordable, pleasing to the eye, paid for, with Great exhaust sounds.
Which is why the base C8 will be wearing ALL SEASON tires. Hot, cold, wet, dry, for a RWD sports car it should be a pretty entertaining drive. With the C7 a lot of people (myself included) felt the Grand Sport was the sweet spot. With the C8 the best Vette may well be base spec Vette with the 3LT package.
We'll need some hands on driving reviews of each to find out for sure.
More details..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T3ScY58Ma8
I really struggled on the transmission when I ordered my ZL1, but decided on the A10 & couldn't resist the technology...I can promise you wouldn't be bored if you took it around the block. It is a drifting machine!! Never thought I would have an auto in a 650hp sports car but the advancements are insane. When it shifts into performance mode it knows exactly which gear to hold going into corners & truly amazing to see & hear her work. I don't ever use the paddles but do like to manually shift when scooting around town using the gear knob. I do miss rowing the gears at times but glad I chose the ten speed. I do think GM & Ford both failed a lot of traditionalists by not offering a left pedal in the GT500 & C8 at launch. Hopefully they will rectify.
The GY Super Car 3's are phenomenal when warmed up but kinda squirrely until then & suck ass if it's 60 degrees & under...not supposed to use them under 40 & absolutely terrifying on wet roads & certainly need the nannies on to keep the rear end from coming around on you. I've only got 5500 miles & getting close to needing a new set of rears.
No manual, no care.
Automatic's are boring. Paddle shifters are boring. 1.2g's of grip is boring. Unless your on a road course going for 1.21g's.
The funnest cars to drive hard are the ones in the middle. RWD or AWD, good brakes, predictable manners, enough or slightly too much power for the chassis. Affordable, pleasing to the eye, paid for, with Great exhaust sounds.
Also, a little forgiving when you dont do it right.
I really struggled on the transmission when I ordered my ZL1, but decided on the A10 & couldn't resist the technology...I can promise you wouldn't be bored if you took it around the block. It is a drifting machine!! Never thought I would have an auto in a 650hp sports car but the advancements are insane. When it shifts into performance mode it knows exactly which gear to hold going into corners & truly amazing to see & hear her work. I don't ever use the paddles but do like to manually shift when scooting around town using the gear knob. I do miss rowing the gears at times but glad I chose the ten speed. I do think GM & Ford both failed a lot of traditionalists by not offering a left pedal in the GT500 & C8 at launch. Hopefully they will rectify.
The GY Super Car 3's are phenomenal when warmed up but kinda squirrely until then & suck ass if it's 60 degrees & under...not supposed to use them under 40 & absolutely terrifying on wet roads & certainly need the nannies on to keep the rear end from coming around on you. I've only got 5500 miles & getting close to needing a new set of rears.
I recently test drove a ‘19 Mustang GT PP1 with the A10 and was equally impressed with it in track mode. As you said, there’s enough going on that it doesn’t get boring. When you settle into commute or long haul mode, it doesn’t make you work for that peaceful bit of respite from the world. ��
Yay. The car knows when to shift.
The next logical step is taking a car to a road course, setting up a waypoint at the start/finish line, push "track mode", then "go".
Then one can sip coke and eat doritos while watching the performance numbers scroll by on the dash monitor, bragging to your buddy about it via bluetooth and playing "candy crush" on the phone.
Yay, track day!
Actually, why be in the car at all? A person can just sit in the AC'ed VIP area and watch their awesome car post cool numbers! View its cameras right on your phone! "Race" your buddies!
Yay, track day!
Yay. The car knows when to shift.
The next logical step is taking a car to a road course, setting up a waypoint at the start/finish line, push "track mode", then "go".
Then one can sip coke and eat doritos while watching the performance numbers scroll by on the dash monitor, bragging to your buddy about it via bluetooth and playing "candy crush" on the phone.
Yay, track day!
Actually, why be in the car at all? A person can just sit in the AC'ed VIP area and watch their awesome car post cool numbers! View its cameras right on your phone! "Race" your buddies!
Yay, track day!
:lol: ^^^ I haven't owned a stick shift for over twenty years and am really wanting one in my next car. I have paddle shifters in my current ride but those are worthless and no fun.
I would rather drive a road course in a used $15k RW or AWD car with a manual trans than a new auto anything.
Why? More fun. Better sense of accomplishment.
Buying performance just isnt as fun as performing it yourself. Even if the performance is less.
Can you imagine bragging about tight groups from a pistol mounted in a fixed rest, when you didnt build the pistol, the rest, or load the ammo?
I can appreciate the C8 Corvette for a few things, but being a fun commuter or fun track car wouldn't be those things.
That being said, I do appreciate people, especially young people, being interested in performance cars at all. It's not near as common as it used to be.
I would rather drive a road course in a used $15k RW or AWD car with a manual trans than a new auto anything.
Why? More fun. Better sense of accomplishment.
Buying performance just isnt as fun as performing it yourself. Even if the performance is less.
Can you imagine bragging about tight groups from a pistol mounted in a fixed rest, when you didnt build the pistol, the rest, or load the ammo?
I can appreciate the C8 Corvette for a few things, but being a fun commuter or fun track car wouldn't be those things.
True.
But it still it requires skill to extract the performance delta the automated manual transmissions offer.
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True.
But it still it requires skill to extract the performance delta the automated manual transmissions offer.
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Much less.
:lol: ^^^ I haven't owned a stick shift for over twenty years and am really wanting one in my next car. I have paddle shifters in my current ride but those are worthless and no fun.
I test drove one recently. The sales guy and I didnt know how to get it to stay in "paddle shift" mode. It was very frustrating and I'm sure the salesman liked my berating the car and how auto's are for people of advanced age or disability. And the lazy and unskilled and not willing to learn. 😁
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-26-19, 19:54
If it were an automatic like in a station wagon, with 4 speeds and over drive, I'd agree. Dual Clutch set ups like this shouldn't be called automatics. Frankly, it can shift faster than you can engage the clutch, let alone move the gear selector-- plus it has more ratios than a manual.
An automatic is like Michelle Obama, this C8 transmission is like Melania Trump- and old tranny that beats you up, versus something beautful and slick that goes fast and makes you look good.
Fine, go with a manual, but you don't get to use synchros- double clutch or you are a b!tch. ;)
56k is better than fiber.
That is how dumb people sound when they prefer manual transmissions over modern dual-clutch automatics. That thing where you think manual shifting takes more skill to operate at 10/10th...ego stroking. Nothing more.
Carry on.
56k is better than fiber.
That is how dumb people sound when they prefer manual transmissions over modern dual-clutch automatics. That thing where you think manual shifting takes more skill to operate at 10/10th...ego stroking. Nothing more.
Carry on.
Internet data flow speed isnt a good analogy.
You think it strokes my ego when i brake, do a rev-matched downshift, start my turn-in, roll back on the throttle at the apex, track-out of the turn, and up-shift whenever I want when I'm on the next straight? Using my own two hands and feet?
Your absolutely right!
Not just when open-tracking, either. I do it all the damn time even just slowing down from 50 mph to turn in my neighborhood hood at 20 mph at three-tenths. Love it.
If it were an automatic like in a station wagon, with 4 speeds and over drive, I'd agree. Dual Clutch set ups like this shouldn't be called automatics. Frankly, it can shift faster than you can engage the clutch, let alone move the gear selector-- plus it has more ratios than a manual.
Fine, go with a manual, but you don't get to use synchros- double clutch or you are a b!tch. ;)
Yes it's faster, but less fun. Isnt FUN the point of performance driving when not in official competition?
As for synchronizors...on the track, I'd still take the stick over an auto! Commute every day? Nah, I'd rather put it in "D"!
I understand the mechanics of an automated clutch, but if you're not moving the clutch or shifting gears via controls physically linked to transmission components, you have an automatic transmission.
militarymoron
07-27-19, 09:33
Yes it's faster, but less fun. Isnt FUN the point of performance driving when not in official competition?
Does that apply to shooting as well? Revolvers vs. pistols, semi-auto rifles vs bolt actions?
56k is better than fiber.
That is how dumb people sound when they prefer manual transmissions over modern dual-clutch automatics. That thing where you think manual shifting takes more skill to operate at 10/10th...ego stroking. Nothing more.
Carry on.
Uh, that pretty much the point. A manual transmission absolutely takes more skill to operate. If you can’t or don’t want to do it, then you do you.
Does that apply to shooting as well? Revolvers vs. pistols, semi-auto rifles vs bolt actions?
I dont think so.
Performance driving is a more dynamic endeavor. Pro drivers are often called "athletes". Shooting competitions are more "game" than "sport".
I dont think so.
Performance driving is a more dynamic endeavor. Pro drivers are often called "athletes". Shooting competitions are more "game" than "sport".
As someone who's competed at a very high level with both autos and revolvers, you're wrong. Completely and utterly wrong as a matter of fact. Your thoughts on the matter aren't really relevant either. ;)
I dont think so.
Performance driving is a more dynamic endeavor. Pro drivers are often called "athletes". Shooting competitions are more "game" than "sport".
Because they use manual transmissions in modern racing series right?
WRONG!
:laugh:
Because they use manual transmissions in modern racing series right?
WRONG!
:laugh:
As I've said, manual transmissions are more engaging, challenging and fun. Not more efficient.
F1 doesn't have a left foot peddle & are driven by the best around the world. They are the most amazing & phenomenal cars on the planet & it's nonsense to discredit any sort diminished ability to pilot an auto vs manual...there is a lot going on when you are on the ragged edge of disaster while on the road course & will call total BS anyone would choose a slower $15k POS awd over the opportunity to pick a MUCH superior sports car if one actually got a choice which one to take around the ring'. Hate the internet when someone has to win some sort of self perceived superior internet debate when it's totally opinionated. I love the manual & it can be more engaging from time to time but many traditionalist are moving to these sophisticated autos for a reason & there is no loss of fun factor. Claiming fact on topics that are subjective becomes asinine. Take it from a guy who 'again' said he didn't think he would ever own a sports car without a left pedal. They are a freak'n hoot once you actually get to experience what they have to offer.
Yeah, this is so totally ****ing boring & would love to see all those standing in line waiting for an awd turbo'd 4 banger because purists want to row gears vs one that is twice as fast. Nobody would blow a chance in a lifetime in such a scenario.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBmLnLJLQ0o
As someone who's competed at a very high level with both autos and revolvers, you're wrong. Completely and utterly wrong as a matter of fact. Your thoughts on the matter aren't really relevant either. ;)
Shooting sports, like golf, darts, and bowling, while they require physical effort, are games, not sports.
The difference is your competition can do nothing to interfere with your efforts.
They can in Pool, and Checkers, but then there isnt much physical exertion.
In say, Running or Diving, it's all physical exertion even though your opponent doesn't interfere with your efforts. Sports.
If nobody is trying to stop you from "scoring" or "advancing" and you can compete just fine while 50 lbs or more overweight, your competing in a game.
Shooting sports, like golf, darts, and bowling, while they require physical effort, are games, not sports.
The difference is your competition can do nothing to interfere with your efforts.
They can in Pool, and Checkers, but then there isnt much physical exertion.
In say, Running or Diving, it's all physical exertion even though your opponent doesn't interfere with your efforts. Sports.
If nobody is trying to stop you from "scoring" or "advancing" and you can compete just fine while 50 lbs or more overweight, your competing in a game.
Well my Dr., my orthopedic Dr., my physical therapist and all my opponents I've bested and have bested me would completely disagree with you. You don't know what you don't know. Best you stick to trannies, that seems to be your strong suit. :rolleyes:
militarymoron
07-27-19, 10:42
As I've said, manual transmissions are more engaging, challenging and fun. Not more efficient.
'Fun' is going to be subjective. That was the aspect that I was making with shooting. You don't always find it more fun to shoot the gun that requires the most engagement (bolt action, muzzle loader) on a regular basis.
I learned to drive on a manual, and drove a manual for 30 years until I bought my current car with paddle shifters. I don't miss having a stick, even on fun drives.
F1 doesn't have a left foot peddle & are driven by the best around the world. They are the most amazing & phenomenal cars on the planet & it's nonsense to discredit any sort diminished ability to pilot an auto vs manual...there is a lot going on when you are on the ragged edge of disaster while on the road course & will call total BS anyone would choose a slower $15k POS awd over the opportunity to pick a MUCH superior sports car if one actually got a choice which one to take around the ring'. Hate the internet when someone has to win some sort of self perceived superior internet debate when it's totally opinionated. I love the manual & it can be more engaging from time to time but many traditionalist are moving to these sophisticated autos for a reason & there is no loss of fun factor. Claiming fact on topics that are subjective becomes asinine. Take it from a guy who 'again' said he didn't think he would ever own a sports car without a left pedal. They are a freak'n hoot once you actually get to experience what they have to offer.
Yeah, this is so totally ****ing boring & would love to see all those standing in line waiting for an awd turbo'd 4 banger because purists want to row gears vs one that is twice as fast. Nobody would blow a chance in a lifetime in such a scenario.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBmLnLJLQ0o
I watched some of the video. I'd be more impressed if he did a little shifting.
Yes, when not striving for numbers, driving for fun on the street or a road course, I'll always know a manual is more fun.
But hey, you help save the auto industry money by buying an auto, so they thank you.
Yea, posting opinions is fun. That's why we all do it so much!
'Fun' is going to be subjective. That was the aspect that I was making with shooting. You don't always find it more fun to shoot the gun that requires the most engagement (bolt action, muzzle loader) on a regular basis.
I learned to drive on a manual, and drove a manual for 30 years until I bought my current car with paddle shifters. I don't miss having a stick, even on fun drives.
I campaigned a revolver for three years. It was a love hate relationship. It's like training while wearing weights. When I finally made the switch back to autos, it's like I'd finally broken free of the chains holding me back. It was time to release some pent up aggression, and it was a joyous time indeed!
'Fun' is going to be subjective. That was the aspect that I was making with shooting. You don't always find it more fun to shoot the gun that requires the most engagement (bolt action, muzzle loader) on a regular basis.
I learned to drive on a manual, and drove a manual for 30 years until I bought my current car with paddle shifters. I don't miss having a stick, even on fun drives.
I have tried muzzle loaders and single action revolvers.
The time spent reloading spoils the fun for me. Unless the revolver is a top-break. 😎
I dont understand how you dont miss the stick and clutch pedal even for fun.
Do they cause you pain or discomfort? Is it because you cant eat or drink as easily in traffic? Is it increased MPG you get from more gear ratio's?
Was the vehicle you like not available with a manual?
Or do you simply not want to be bothered shifting?
I'm actually trying to understand here.
militarymoron
07-27-19, 11:15
I have tried muzzle loaders and single action revolvers.
The time spent reloading spoils the fun for me. Unless the revolver is a top-break. ��
I dont understand how you dont miss the stick and clutch pedal even for fun.
Do they cause you pain or discomfort? Is it because you cant eat or drink as easily in traffic? Is it increased MPG you get from more gear ratio's?
Was the vehicle you like not available with a manual?
Or do you simply not want to be bothered shifting?
I'm actually trying to understand here.
As I mentioned, I learned on a manual and drove manuals for 30 years. It was all I knew, so it wasn't 'fun'; it just 'was'. It was routine, not fun.
The vehicle I chose was available in a manual, but I chose the paddle shifters because it was novel to me, and therefore more fun. I change gears when I want, just like in a manual, with a flick of my fingers.
I just got back from a trip to Europe where I drove a manual rental car in the French countryside. I didn't suddenly feel more engaged or had more fun because it was a manual. I just drove the car and enjoyed the scenery.
There's really not much to understand, other than what some people find fun isn't always the same for everyone else. I'm sure that we all can find things that other people find fun that we don't. Same thing. What's fun about using your left foot to change gears? You're just disengaging a clutch.
Honestly, after riding motorcycles for 20 years mostly for fun (canyons and track), the difference in 'engagement' and 'fun' when driving a car with manual or auto transmission (with paddle shifters) is negligible to me.
As I mentioned, I learned on a manual and drove manuals for 30 years. It was all I knew, so it wasn't 'fun'; it just 'was'. It was routine, not fun.
The vehicle I chose was available in a manual, but I chose the paddle shifters because it was novel to me, and therefore more fun. I change gears when I want, just like in a manual, with a flick of my fingers.
I just got back from a trip to Europe where I drove a manual rental car in the French countryside. I didn't suddenly feel more engaged or had more fun because it was a manual. I just drove the car.
There's really not much to understand, other than what some people find fun isn't always the same for everyone else.
Honestly, after riding motorcycles for 20 years mostly for fun, the difference in 'engagement' and 'fun' when driving a car with manual or auto transmission (with paddle shifters) is negligible to me.
Alright. ✌
My first few cars were auto's. But a friends Dad had a manual I learned to drive stick with. It was so much more fun, even though it was just a Hyundai! From then on I've only bought manuals. First one was a Mustang 5.0. (Have had other Mustangs, Mustang Cobra's, and other makes since)
Wife feels the same way about them. Only gets manuals.
Oh, I've never had a street bike. Some combination of "balls aren't big / hard enough", "Dont want to go to jail" and "want to keep my skin attached to my body" keeps me a cager.
Having my own dirt bike and a place to ride it would be fun. Yea, it would need to be a manual. 😎
As I mentioned, I learned on a manual and drove manuals for 30 years. It was all I knew, so it wasn't 'fun'; it just 'was'. It was routine, not fun.
The vehicle I chose was available in a manual, but I chose the paddle shifters because it was novel to me, and therefore more fun. I change gears when I want, just like in a manual, with a flick of my fingers.
I just got back from a trip to Europe where I drove a manual rental car in the French countryside. I didn't suddenly feel more engaged or had more fun because it was a manual. I just drove the car and enjoyed the scenery.
There's really not much to understand, other than what some people find fun isn't always the same for everyone else.
Honestly, after riding motorcycles for 20 years mostly for fun, the difference in 'engagement' and 'fun' when driving a car with manual or auto transmission (with paddle shifters) is negligible to me.
Some people don't understand that it's less about the equipment than it is the individual challenge. I can do some amazing things with a Model 19 and Comp III's with speed mods, but that doesn't mean it's any less fun to go fast with a Glock 17 or 1911. They just go faster, so there's less time to think about it before you do it. It's the same way with modern sporting cars. Can I drive a fully analog car with a manual transmission fast? Sure. I did it all the time in my '66 Mustang GT with no power anything. It's no more impressive than driving a '19 GT with an A10 and full suite of driver aides fast. It's just slower.
I've always felt the best drivers in the world are WRC drivers. Here's Richard Burns driving the wheels off one way back in '02, and he's not rowing his own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jcvxKMHN6w
" I did it all the time in my '66 Mustang GT with no power anything. It's no more impressive than driving a '19 GT with an A10 and full suite of driver aides fast. It's just slower."
Yes it is! You had be stronger, more experienced, and more skilled in that '66 To drive it "well". Even though it was slower. That makes it more of an achievement to be proud of.
" I did it all the time in my '66 Mustang GT with no power anything. It's no more impressive than driving a '19 GT with an A10 and full suite of driver aides fast. It's just slower."
Yes it is! You had be stronger, more experienced, and more skilled in that '66 To drive it "well". Even though it was slower. That makes it more of an achievement to be proud of.
No, it doesn't. It's just... Slower.
I'm just as proud to be 3rd in the world with a 1911, as I was to be 1st with a Model 19. The field was much bigger and faster with the 1911, and as an amateur I beat a lot more "pros".
Then you will like the 1LE version of my car...This one you will watch all of & one of the best hero runs I've ever seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw
We are still waiting for the A10 1LE time & should be phenomenal & will beat the M6 time. I would have bought this car if I lived closer to COTA & hit the track on a regular basis but it's a full blown racer & has even wider rubber & full R compound with racing dssv suspension vs. the mag ride on the regular Z. Owners say it sucks as a daily driver & loosens your fillings as a grocery getter.
I have no problem with your opinion...I have issue with you claiming a purely subjective topic as fact & the pompous attitude / passive aggressive drive by comments. That sort of opinion you are having fun with really doesn't add any value to the conversation. I don't understand why a few fellow enthusiasts like yourself feel the need to chest thump while belittling the counter with juvie snarky jabs at the same time vs stating your preference & at least acknowledge the positive aspects the technology brings to the table that again, many hard core manual guys like myself have embraced?? All I can figure is there is some morbid reason to defend your preferred self perceived superior choice because it's only slightly slower than the auto in the same make/model?? The manual is funner to you, the paddles are funner to mm & I think shifting with the gear selector is a blast. Again, the best drivers in the world do not stomp a clutch & find it comical for anyone who appreciates well handling cars to comment to your fellow enthusiasts a lesser degree of talent is at hand behind the wheel when choosing the faster option. I'm sure there is a reason why the C8 & GT500 were launched without a manual although I think it's a shame. Posting opinions is really a lot more enjoyable when mutual respect is shown amigo!!
I watched some of the video. I'd be more impressed if he did a little shifting.
Yes, when not striving for numbers, driving for fun on the street or a road course, I'll always know a manual is more fun.
But hey, you help save the auto industry money by buying an auto, so they thank you.
Yea, posting opinions is fun. That's why we all do it so much!
No, it doesn't. It's just... Slower.
I'm just as proud to be 3rd in the world with a 1911, as I was to be 1st with a Model 19. The field was much bigger and faster with the 1911, and as an amateur I beat a lot more "pros".
I'm not understanding the gun analogies or people mixing driving / shooting for fun vs driving / shooting competitively.
I'm not understanding the gun analogies or people mixing driving / shooting for fun vs driving / shooting competitively.
Trust me it's apples to apples. Both take mental acuity, a certain level of fitness (at least to do at the skill level for the specific discipline I did), eye and hand speed, fine motor skills, performing multiple things simultaneously and competitive drive. Likewise when I just "shoot for fun", the equipment is secondary to the challenge. A DA revolver is much more "analog" than a modern semi-auto, which is why militarymoron brought it up. Even old school 1911's are more analog than modern 1911's. Both are challenging to shoot, just in their own ways.
Then you will like the 1LE version of my car...This one you will watch all of & one of the best hero runs I've ever seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw
We are still waiting for the A10 1LE time & should be phenomenal & will beat the M6 time. I would have bought this car if I lived closer to COTA & hit the track on a regular basis but it's a full blown racer & has even wider rubber & full R compound with racing dssv suspension vs. the mag ride on the regular Z. Owners say it sucks as a daily driver & loosens your fillings as a grocery getter.
I have no problem with your opinion...I have issue with you claiming a purely subjective topic as fact & the pompous attitude / passive aggressive drive by comments. That sort of opinion you are having fun with really doesn't add any value to the conversation. I don't understand why a few fellow enthusiasts like yourself feel the need to chest thump while belittling the counter with juvie snarky jabs at the same time vs stating your preference & at least acknowledge the positive aspects the technology brings to the table that again, many hard core manual guys like myself have embraced?? All I can figure is there is some morbid reason to defend your preferred self perceived superior choice because it's only slightly slower than the auto in the same make/model?? The manual is funner to you, the paddles are funner to mm & I think shifting with the gear selector is a blast. Again, the best drivers in the world do not stomp a clutch & find it comical for anyone who appreciates well handling cars to comment to your fellow enthusiasts a lesser degree of talent is at hand behind the wheel when choosing the faster option. I'm sure there is a reason why the C8 & GT500 were launched without a manual although I think it's a shame. Posting opinions is really a lot more enjoyable when mutual respect is shown amigo!!
Okay, I didnt intend to come across as "mean" or "disrespectful". The jibes are meant to be fun "smack talk".
I think it's common for users of modern equipment to appreciate how much more difficult it was for their predecessors to use older equipment and do so well.
While I appreciate advanced auto trans, stability control / active suspensions, and aerodynamic bodywork for what they can do I dont find they make driving any more "fun" and in some ways less so.
Fuel injection? Antilock brakes? Person Safety Equipment? Love all that stuff!
If "fun" = better numbers than no, that person probably wont be satisfied until they are doing a victory lap in an F1 car after winning the Cup.
Then you will like the 1LE version of my car...This one you will watch all of & one of the best hero runs I've ever seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw
We are still waiting for the A10 1LE time & should be phenomenal & will beat the M6 time. I would have bought this car if I lived closer to COTA & hit the track on a regular basis but it's a full blown racer & has even wider rubber & full R compound with racing dssv suspension vs. the mag ride on the regular Z. Owners say it sucks as a daily driver & loosens your fillings as a grocery getter.
I have no problem with your opinion...I have issue with you claiming a purely subjective topic as fact & the pompous attitude / passive aggressive drive by comments. That sort of opinion you are having fun with really doesn't add any value to the conversation. I don't understand why a few fellow enthusiasts like yourself feel the need to chest thump while belittling the counter with juvie snarky jabs at the same time vs stating your preference & at least acknowledge the positive aspects the technology brings to the table that again, many hard core manual guys like myself have embraced?? All I can figure is there is some morbid reason to defend your preferred self perceived superior choice because it's only slightly slower than the auto in the same make/model?? The manual is funner to you, the paddles are funner to mm & I think shifting with the gear selector is a blast. Again, the best drivers in the world do not stomp a clutch & find it comical for anyone who appreciates well handling cars to comment to your fellow enthusiasts a lesser degree of talent is at hand behind the wheel when choosing the faster option. I'm sure there is a reason why the C8 & GT500 were launched without a manual although I think it's a shame. Posting opinions is really a lot more enjoyable when mutual respect is shown amigo!!
That's an awesome run! Oh and DSSV's are no joke. I have them on my '18 ZR2 and they should be on everything. No one who's ridden with me in the turns can believe a truck set up for off road can corner so fast and flat (even shod with Duratracs), especially when the tarmac is less than optimal. Then when you're not cornering, they give a superb ride quality considering what they're designed for.
Then you will like the 1LE version of my car...This one you will watch all of & one of the best hero runs I've ever seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw!!
Hehe...he's Good! And brave! Sounded like street tires too!
Okay, what makes them special? What's new?
http://www.multimatic.com/structures-and-suspension/structures-suspensions-products/dssv-dampers-road-cars/
Okay, what makes them special? What's new?
http://www.multimatic.com/structures-and-suspension/structures-suspensions-products/dssv-dampers-road-cars/
The spool valve technology allows them to tune specific spools for specific actions. In doing this they essentially have multiple different shocks built into one unit. Imagine having one shock to absorb small impacts to the vehicle, another one for large impacts and yet another for cornering loads.
http://assets.trucktrend.com/f/216314987.jpg?
https://www.tfltruck.com/2016/11/chevy-colorado-zr2-aims-for-off-road-leadership-with-f1-racing-inspired-shocks/
How are they better than magnetorheological types?
I'm not understanding the gun analogies or people mixing driving / shooting for fun vs driving / shooting competitively.
They are actually “the same thing.”
It’s a combination of KNOWING what to do and then having the MUSCLE MEMORY to simply execute it without thinking.
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How are they better than magnetorheological types?
I wouldn't say they're better, but they are less complex at accomplishing mostly the same things. This is just my opinion, but I think the DSSV's do one thing better than mag shocks do and that's deal with mid corner bumps and dips when under cornering load. With mag shocks it's all the same ferro-fluid having to accept a charge change to deal with the impacts, while still trying to manage the cornering load. The DSSV's have separate valve sections handling each input.
I have a specific "test loop" I always try to drive when I want to test a vehicle. It includes a very fast, off-camber right hand sweeper with a substantial and abrupt hump across the entire lane. It will unsettle all but the very best suspension setups. When I take it in the ZR2, it just remains utterly flat and unruffled. Granted it's older tech, but my '02 Vette with Magnetic Ride would get positively squirrely when it hit that hump, to the point I'd have to make a mid corner correction after the hit. I think they're on the 3rd generation of Magnetic Ride with the C7, so it may be a lot better. I know the '19 GT PP1 I test drove handled it better, (and it had MagneRide) but still not as well as the ZR2.
The engineering and capabilities of mag shocks are quite good though, so I'm not sure the average driver could tell the difference. We have a lot of deteriorated infrastructure where I drive, so any ride enhancement is appreciated. I love that these newer performance cars allow you to tailor the ride settings independent of throttle tip in, steering feel and shift algorithms. It doesn't do much good to have sharper inputs if your suspension settings are so stiff, you're skittering all over the place because the tarmac is so bad. :(
No manual, no care.
Automatic's are boring. Paddle shifters are boring. 1.2g's of grip is boring. Unless your on a road course going for 1.21g's.
The funnest cars to drive hard are the ones in the middle. RWD or AWD, good brakes, predictable manners, enough or slightly too much power for the chassis. Affordable, pleasing to the eye, paid for, with Great exhaust sounds.
Also, a little forgiving when you dont do it right.
Ever drive an Integra Type R or the new Civic Type R??
Talk about fun!!
Same with the Honda S2000 and some variants of the Miata (haven’t been in one in some time now).
You’re correct about fast does not always equate to fun, btw. Which is why I mentioned those cars above.
I saw a Porsche 911 GT3RS yesterday morning on the way to work. I thought, “Damn, what a waste of ability...” yet I still want a couple of them. No, really... a couple as in three.
I KNOW the manual trans GT3 or the GT3 Touring Manual or 911 R would be a more engaging car: manual transmissions and the 911 R has less tire and modified suspension damping to offset the much less downforce since it does not have the “aero pkg” of the GT3RS.
A car CAN have too much grip, too. My Integra Type R corners 0.95g on R compound tires. When not doing STUPID stuff on the road it’s like driving on a rail. There is a thrill in that, no doubt, but I really like the car when the tires are worn (except for the THRUMMING tire noise) as it will then slide a bit when cornering.
I will always drive it when it’s raining as the grippy tires will obviously grip less in te wet and the car rolls so little you have to trail brake it to get it to really turn in or “bite” when driven quickly/aggressively in the wet.
Add a glorious soundtrack, Short throw shifter, very good steering feedback, Recaro seats and it’s no wonder it’s one of the greats.
Look to Mazda with some version of the Miata in the near future or grab an unmolested Honda S2000.
Newer cars are motivated by lap times, to a fault. And I am guilty of tracking lap times on the Nurburgring Norsdschleife.
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Much less.
No, not much less.
Notice I said to extract the delta/difference in lap time between the two: get a manual trans Porsche GT3 and do your thing then try the PDK. Extracting what the latter car can do OVER tee Manual is still beyond what the vast majority of enthusiasts can safely and consistently deliver.
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56k is better than fiber.
That is how dumb people sound when they prefer manual transmissions over modern dual-clutch automatics. That thing where you think manual shifting takes more skill to operate at 10/10th...ego stroking. Nothing more.
Carry on.
Bullshit!
Can you heel & toe perfectly corner after corner?
Most cannot.
Once you learn and perfect it you won’t really want the PDK/semi-auto/automated manual transmission unless - you’re stuck in a horrid traffic jam or you’re trying to be as fast as humanly possible.
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Internet data flow speed isnt a good analogy.
You think it strokes my ego when i brake, do a rev-matched downshift, start my turn-in, roll back on the throttle at the apex, track-out of the turn, and up-shift whenever I want when I'm on the next straight? Using my own two hands and feet?
Your absolutely right!
Not just when open-tracking, either. I do it all the damn time even just slowing down from 50 mph to turn in my neighborhood hood at 20 mph at three-tenths. Love it.
Bingo! [emoji41][emoji1362][emoji445]
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They are actually “the same thing.”
It’s a combination of KNOWING what to do and then having the MUSCLE MEMORY to simply execute it without thinking.
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I've been asked dozens of times (or more) if competition shooting is good training for defense. My standard reply is "Competition shooting is not good defense training. What it does is allow you to test and improve your shooting and gun handling skills under stress, as well as sort your gear*. That will free your mind to focus on the threat and your situation (OODA Loop for the initiated), as the actual shooting and gun handling will be dealt with by muscle memory."
Or something to that effect. :)
*assuming you use your street gear in competition
A car CAN have too much grip, too. My Integra Type R corners 0.95g on R compound tires. When not doing STUPID stuff on the road it’s like driving on a rail. There is a thrill in that, no doubt, but I really like the car when the tires are worn (except for the THRUMMING tire noise) as it will then slide a bit when cornering.
I will always drive it when it’s raining as the grippy tires will obviously grip less in the wet and the car rolls so little you have to trail brake it to get it to really turn in or “bite” when driven quickly/aggressively in the wet.
I know I always preferred Pilot A/S 3's on my WRX over Pilot Super Sports or Dunlop Sport Maxx's for the same reason. I think the biggest issue is getting to be the HP on the street. These 500+hp cars are SO fast, you're in pure reckless driving territory before you ever hit redline in 2nd gear. I'm looking for fun, not jail time!
F1 doesn't have a left foot peddle & are driven by the best around the world. They are the most amazing & phenomenal cars on the planet & it's nonsense to discredit any sort diminished ability to pilot an auto vs manual...there is a lot going on when you are on the ragged edge of disaster while on the road course & will call total BS anyone would choose a slower $15k POS awd over the opportunity to pick a MUCH superior sports car if one actually got a choice which one to take around the ring'. Hate the internet when someone has to win some sort of self perceived superior internet debate when it's totally opinionated. I love the manual & it can be more engaging from time to time but many traditionalist are moving to these sophisticated autos for a reason & there is no loss of fun factor. Claiming fact on topics that are subjective becomes asinine. Take it from a guy who 'again' said he didn't think he would ever own a sports car without a left pedal. They are a freak'n hoot once you actually get to experience what they have to offer.
Yeah, this is so totally ****ing boring & would love to see all those standing in line waiting for an awd turbo'd 4 banger because purists want to row gears vs one that is twice as fast. Nobody would blow a chance in a lifetime in such a scenario.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBmLnLJLQ0o
You don’t get it.
People like you gave me fits while at Ford. They embraced all manner of tech that filled the driving experience.
You do you and those of us with 50 w Motor Oil for blood will do our thing.
Peace.
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" I did it all the time in my '66 Mustang GT with no power anything. It's no more impressive than driving a '19 GT with an A10 and full suite of driver aides fast. It's just slower."
Yes it is! You had be stronger, more experienced, and more skilled in that '66 To drive it "well". Even though it was slower. That makes it more of an achievement to be proud of.
You’re correct.
People don’t get it which is why most sports car people don’t ask the general public anything about driving or cars, in general. It’s like asking John Q Public about shooting.
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Bullshit!
Can you heel & toe perfectly corner after corner?
Most cannot.
Once you learn and perfect it you won’t really want the PDK/semi-auto/automated manual transmission unless - you’re stuck in a horrid traffic jam or you’re trying to be as fast as humanly possible.
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Most of us simply don't see it that way. If I can only have three cars, my 3rd car is going to be a fast GT with all the amenities and convenience to get me TO the fun roads in style, while also being pleasant for a long weekend road trip or for my wife to drive. That means a PDK/semi-auto/automated manual transmission, etc. Now if I can have FOUR cars, then my 4th would be as you describe. Something lightweight, maybe a bit loud and unrefined, intermediate power, minimal driving aids and a manual 5 or 6 speed.
Unfortunately that 4th car would cost me my very fast and very challenging to drive at speed, boat. Sorry, not giving it up! :D
Ever drive an Integra Type R or the new Civic Type R??
Talk about fun!!
Same with the Honda S2000 and some variants of the Miata (haven’t been in one in some time now).
You’re correct about fast does not always equate to fun, btw. Which is why I mentioned those cars above.
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No. But I did test drive a demo Veloster N. I was impressed. It was pretty fun to drive. The front had a lot more grip than I expected. Having to use throttle-lift to encourage rotation (with more-throttle steer not an option) would get some getting use to. But it works!
The wife wants one.
Most of us simply don't see it that way. If I can only have three cars, my 3rd car is going to be a fast GT with all the amenities and convenience to get me TO the fun roads in style, while also being pleasant for a long weekend road trip or for my wife to drive. That means a PDK/semi-auto/automated manual transmission, etc. Now if I can have FOUR cars, then my 4th would be as you describe. Something lightweight, maybe a bit loud and unrefined, intermediate power, minimal driving aids and a manual 5 or 6 speed.
Unfortunately that 4th car would cost me my very fast and very challenging to drive at speed, boat. Sorry, not giving it up! :D
Roget that.
[emoji106][emoji106]
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No. But I did test drive a demo Veloster N. I was impressed. It was pretty fun to drive. The front had a lot more grip than I expected. Having to use throttle-lift to encourage rotation (with more-throttle steer not an option) would get some getting use to. But it works!
The wife wants one.
See if you can drive the Civic; yeah, the styling is... odd, but it’s cut from the same cloth as the Porsche GT3.
In fact, if I fell into a $500 MM windfall by daily ride would be the Civic Type R.
The garage would have two of each (with lots of spares):
Porsche GT2RS
Porsche GT3RS
Porsche GT3 Manual
One (1) Porsche GT3 Touring
One Raptor - or Tacoma TRD Pro, maybe both and decide within a year which to sell.
Still need a sedan...
[emoji38][emoji38]
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I totally get it amigo...I tried to buy a 350R before finding the release of the 17 ZL1 & had no intensions of getting the auto until I started researching. Also Couldn't find a Ford dealer that didn't want me to pay them extra $$$$ for the privilege of purchasing from them & I don't do ADM. Turns out I was actually fortunate because I ended up getting imo a superior car. Says a lot because I highly regard what Ford did with the 350R. Funny how the R is only manual while the 500 isn't offered. I love rowing the gears & have total comprehension why some like you & Ron won't buy an auto in a sports car. Hell, I even mentioned that I never thought I would buy an auto in a previous post, struggled over the transmission when I special ordered her AND posted I would have bought the manual 1LE if I didn't have such logistical problems getting to the road courses regularly. I am simply appreciating the advancements & what this new A10 & the DCT's bring to the table & have REALLY been enjoying this 650HP brute combined with such a sophisticated transmission. So What exactly am I / people like me not getting?? How is it being an enthusiast / acknowledging this particular old die hard manual dog learned a new trick?? I had to eat a lot of crow driving an auto home as I felt exactly the same before these 'good' automatics surfaced in a car I had an interest in.
Not once did I ever post anything negative or try to convince others to not purchase a manual car & repeatedly stated my fondness of them & how GM & Ford failed a lot of potential buyers for not offering in the C8 & GT500...be mad at them if your having fits!! Certainly no reason to get irked for simply appreciating what are truly outstanding advancements in engineering that are making lap times faster?? I'm absolutely loving this 10 speed as are many other manual converts & certainly no sense of loss from the driving experience since I now have a hands on comparison. If I had enough $$$ to add a 2nd sports car I can promise you it wouldn't be another auto for reasons mentioned, but if I ever trade this one in I will stay auto because I'm now a believer & it brings a smile every time I jump in. Again, I grasp what purists / traditional feel on the matter, just not the total disdain to the point it appears the auto was nonexistent??
...peace
You don’t get it.
People like you gave me fits while at Ford. They embraced all manner of tech that filled the driving experience.
You do you and those of us with 50 w Motor Oil for blood will do our thing.
Peace.
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See if you can drive the Civic; yeah, the styling is... odd, but it’s cut from the same cloth as the Porsche GT3.
In fact, if I fell into a $500 MM windfall by daily ride would be the Civic Type R.
The garage would have two of each (with lots of spares):
Porsche GT2RS
Porsche GT3RS
Porsche GT3 Manual
One (1) Porsche GT3 Touring
One Raptor - or Tacoma TRD Pro, maybe both and decide within a year which to sell.
Still need a sedan...
[emoji38][emoji38]
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My dream garage would be:
Bentley Continental GT
Porsche Panamera Turbo Sport Turismo (covers sedan and wagon)
Porsche 911 Turbo S
Lotus Exige Cup 430
Lincoln Navigator Black Label
I'd keep my ZR2, but I'd drop the 3.6L TT from the ATS-V in it. Of course I'd have to add bigger brakes too and...
Oh, and I'd trade my Triton Tr-20x in for an Allison XB 2002. :D
58200
Hehe...he's Good! And brave! Sounded like street tires too!
Indeed...all the official GM hero runs at the ring' are stock down to the tires with added safety measures like the 5 point & roll cage. Check out this capture during that run!! Sick!!
Not sure why Ford doesn't do official runs?? All the Fords on Nurburgring 100 fastest lap times are by individuals.
I totally get it amigo...I tried to buy a 350R before finding the release of the 17 ZL1 & had no intensions of getting the auto until I started researching. Also Couldn't find a Ford dealer that didn't want me to pay them extra $$$$ for the privilege of purchasing from them & I don't do ADM. Turns out I was actually fortunate because I ended up getting imo a superior car. Says a lot because I highly regard what Ford did with the 350R. Funny how the R is only manual while the 500 isn't offered. I love rowing the gears & have total comprehension why some like you & Ron won't buy an auto in a sports car. Hell, I even mentioned that I never thought I would buy an auto in a previous post, struggled over the transmission when I special ordered her AND posted I would have bought the manual 1LE if I didn't have such logistical problems getting to the road courses regularly. I am simply appreciating the advancements & what this new A10 & the DCT's bring to the table & have REALLY been enjoying this 650HP brute combined with such a sophisticated transmission. So What exactly am I / people like me not getting?? How is it being an enthusiast / acknowledging this particular old die hard manual dog learned a new trick?? I had to eat a lot of crow driving an auto home as I felt exactly the same before these 'good' automatics surfaced in a car I had an interest in.
Not once did I ever post anything negative or try to convince others to not purchase a manual car & repeatedly stated my fondness of them & how GM & Ford failed a lot of potential buyers for not offering in the C8 & GT500...be mad at them if your having fits!! Certainly no reason to get irked for simply appreciating what are truly outstanding advancements in engineering that are making lap times faster?? I'm absolutely loving this 10 speed as are many other manual converts & certainly no sense of loss from the driving experience since I now have a hands on comparison. If I had enough $$$ to add a 2nd sports car I can promise you it wouldn't be another auto for reasons mentioned, but if I ever trade this one in I will stay auto because I'm now a believer & it brings a smile every time I jump in. Again, I grasp what purists / traditional feel on the matter, just not the total disdain to the point it appears the auto was nonexistent??
...peace
This one seriously had me calculating finances:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2017-ford-shelby-mustang-gt350-6/
At that price you could delete the rear seat and add the "R" wing. Yeah you wouldn't be getting the Carbon Revolution wheels, but the mere thought of forking out $4K to replace a single damaged wheel would have me afraid to drive it in a lot of the places I go. :fie:
This one seriously had me calculating finances:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2017-ford-shelby-mustang-gt350-6/
At that price you could delete the rear seat and add the "R" wing. Yeah you wouldn't be getting the Carbon Revolution wheels, but the mere thought of forking out $4K to replace a single damaged wheel would have me afraid to drive it in a lot of the places I go. :fie:
A lot of car for the $$$$ right there...did Ford ever get the vibration & oil consumption issues worked out with the Voodoo?? I saw several threads of blown 350's having to get hauled off the track & felt horrible for those guys. Ouch!! That is one big flat plane crank Ford tackled & an amazing sound when she sings at 8k rpms!! Crazy how different the voodoo brings on the power vs the LT4 & another reason I'm glad I went with the Z. While the voodoo is crazy up high, I just love the delivery of so much torque throughout the power band of the pushrod. Curious to see real world results of the GT500's 5.2 along with the C8's LT2!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I clipped a curb pulling up to public mailbox & slightly scratched the rim on the Camaro...it was an easy fix, but on the R?? Gotta admit those wheels are sweet & a lot of felt weight reduction when it's rotating mass!! Neat car, but gotta say it was kinda fun getting to tell the ford sales guy I got a faster car under sticker when they called me back weeks later wanting to play ball!!:cool: How much do you think the ADM will be on the GT500??
See if you can drive the Civic; yeah, the styling is... odd, but it’s cut from the same cloth as the Porsche GT3.
In fact, if I fell into a $500 MM windfall by daily ride would be the Civic Type R.
I cant do the Civic Type R. It looks like something a 15 yr old would buy if you gave him a license and $40k.
It just grabs too much attention. All of it bad.
Anyone here ordering a C8 already? I think I'll wait to see how it shakes out, and probably for the Z06.
A lot of car for the $$$$ right there...did Ford ever get the vibration & oil consumption issues worked out with the Voodoo?? I saw several threads of blown 350's having to get hauled off the track & felt horrible for those guys. Ouch!! That is one big flat plane crank Ford tackled & an amazing sound when she sings at 8k rpms!! Crazy how different the voodoo brings on the power vs the LT4 & another reason I'm glad I went with the Z. While the voodoo is crazy up high, I just love the delivery of so much torque throughout the power band of the pushrod. Curious to see real world results of the GT500's 5.2 along with the C8's LT2!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I clipped a curb pulling up to public mailbox & slightly scratched the rim on the Camaro...it was an easy fix, but on the R?? Gotta admit those wheels are sweet & a lot of felt weight reduction when it's rotating mass!! Neat car, but gotta say it was kinda fun getting to tell the ford sales guy I got a faster car under sticker when they called me back weeks later wanting to play ball!!:cool: How much do you think the ADM will be on the GT500??
Yeah, I think that's just the price you pay for a flat plane crank mill spinning 8K+. The way I'd drive it would probably be OK, but if I was going to track it, I'd want a full coverage extended warranty. I think the torque curve would work fine for me, but to drive it at 9/10ths you'd have to keep it at full boil, which is where things go South. The LS/LT engines are superior engines for hard street use and I don't see why people bag on them being pushrod.
I think that's also why the went back to cross plane for the GT500. It will definitely be interesting to see ring times once they hit the street, even if it is in privateer hands. The ADM? My guess is between $40-80K for at least 6 months. The C8 will net ADM for a while, but it will be lower and won't last as long. I agree with you though. I don't care if it's a ZR1, a GT500 or a Cayman GT4. I'm not paying ADM, ever. :)
I cant do the Civic Type R. It looks like something a 15 yr old would buy if you gave him a license and $40k.
It just grabs too much attention. All of it bad.
Agreed, but it is a hell of a DD ride for the money.
Mjolnir gets it, so does Ron3.
The DCTs are amazing pieces of technology and allow you extract more performance out of the car. If you want lap time bragging rights (you were the pro driver that earned that time, right?) and like to cruise then maybe that’s the one to get. Some of us want the challenge of changing our own gears and the satisfaction of doing it well, I don’t give a crap about how fast a computer can do it. It adds to the driving experience and that’s what this type of car is about. I hope they offer the C8 with a manual for those that like to row their own.
Bullshit!
Can you heel & toe perfectly corner after corner?
Most cannot.
Once you learn and perfect it you won’t really want the PDK/semi-auto/automated manual transmission unless - you’re stuck in a horrid traffic jam or you’re trying to be as fast as humanly possible.
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Oh really? So driving is more than shifting gears?
I like manual transmissions on cars where it makes sense. A car capable of a 3 second 0-60 time isn't it. Even motorcycles are getting quick-shifters (up and down) as standard equipment on models where it makes sense.
56k is better than fiber.
That is how dumb people sound when they prefer manual transmissions over modern dual-clutch automatics. That thing where you think manual shifting takes more skill to operate at 10/10th...ego stroking. Nothing more.
Carry on.
Thank you. I get SO sick of people and their ePeen contests who grunt on and on about "rowing your own gears" and other dumb crap. You going to churn your own butter next because you prefer how "connected" you are to your ingredients?
Sheesh.
What a dumb thing to complain about the extinction of.
Thank you. I get SO sick of people and their ePeen contests who grunt on and on about "rowing your own gears" and other dumb crap. You going to churn your own butter next because you prefer how "connected" you are to your ingredients?
Sheesh.
What a dumb thing to complain about the extinction of.
LOL, I grew up on a cattle ranch. We churned our own butter from the cream we skimmed off the milk we squeezed straight from the teat. Hadn’t thought of that in years!
LOL, I grew up on a cattle ranch. We churned our own butter from the cream we skimmed off the milk we squeezed straight from the teat. Hadn’t thought of that in years!
Lucky!
I'll be ya'll made your own ice cream, too!
58200
Indeed...all the official GM hero runs at the ring' are stock down to the tires with added safety measures like the 5 point & roll cage. Check out this capture during that run!! Sick!!
Not sure why Ford doesn't do official runs?? All the Fords on Nurburgring 100 fastest lap times are by individuals.
Not sure why Ford doesn’t. [emoji2375]
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My dream garage would be:
Bentley Continental GT
Porsche Panamera Turbo Sport Turismo (covers sedan and wagon)
Porsche 911 Turbo S
Lotus Exige Cup 430
Lincoln Navigator Black Label
I'd keep my ZR2, but I'd drop the 3.6L TT from the ATS-V in it. Of course I'd have to add bigger brakes too and...
Oh, and I'd trade my Triton Tr-20x in for an Allison XB 2002. :D
Nice!
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Oh really? So driving is more than shifting gears?
I like manual transmissions on cars where it makes sense. A car capable of a 3 second 0-60 time isn't it. Even motorcycles are getting quick-shifters (up and down) as standard equipment on models where it makes sense.
Maybe we should just let them drive autonomously. All one would have to do is sit in and close your eyes... [emoji1362]
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ramairthree
07-29-19, 02:22
I love the hell out of driving drum brake equipped, carburetor fed, non overdrive manual transmission equipped cars.
All windows down and you can only reach the handle on one when the rain comes. With four ashtrays, a floor dimmer, and no cup holders until you get to the drive in and you open your glove box.
Just like some days at the range are fun with a revolver or lever-gun.
I don’t stake my manhood on it.
The days of outperforming a present day performance automatic with a classic manual on the drag strip, track, or road course are long gone. Even the days of being able to do so for the 99th percentile + skill guys at the cost of wear and tear and expense are gone.
But this is America.
Every virgin with a 4 inch erection just knows he is the world’s greatest lover.
Every 5’7” guy weighing in at 170 that has never had any training, been in any match, and never in a real fight just knows he is one hell of a fighter That could kick anyone’s ass.
Every guy with a gun and no training and a hundred rounds under his belt just knows he is one hell of a shot.
And every man with no instruction that has never been on a drag strip, off the road, on a road course, around a drift circle track, or around a paved track just knows he is the world’s greatest driver.
And everyone would have been a Ranger Bn, SF, SEAL, PJ, CCT, or Force Recon guy except for that pesky trick knee, wife and kids and city/state benefits, or recruiter that lied to them. The majority that failed the initial Indoc/selection/assessment must be a figment of the Imagination.
And every guy with a 25to 75th percentile IQ knows them there damn rocket surgeons that ain’t got no common sense is Idjits.
There are also, in general, a lot of opinions floating around in army IRL, work, Internet, etc. conversation from people in life in general about cars they have never driven that cost their annual pre tax income and more.
This is America.
Guys that have been in two snowstorms in their life are going to tout their expertise in 4WD systems.
Guys that spent one weekend shooting 500 pistol rounds and 500 Carbine rounds under the tutelage of a former operator that spent two daysof combat under their belt decades ago are going to call out SOF guys with years in combat zones.
Guys that had an IROC, Fox body, or Eagle Talon 25 years ago are going to weigh in on the 6.4 Hemi vs Camaro SS and Corvette.
The shit posting is epic.
In the 1980s I banged the shit out of chick Friday and Saturday and her cousin on Monday and Tuesday over a holiday weekend.
One summer I did a SCAD chick one weekend and her roommate the next.
I fully reserve the right to call out someone that pulled a Friends sandwich with Monica and Rachel in the 1990s, a mother daughter, sisters, and even twins ménage a Trois of total A list status in their prime.
58225
This is my 2017 Grand Sport.
I had a black 1990 C4 in high school (2000 era) and put the ZR1 17" wheels and Borla exhaust on it. The C5 ZO6 was just coming out around that time. I don't know if I'm excited about the C8. I like it but I also like a front engine Corvette. I think the C8 will outsell every generation Corvette by volume but to me, its like the designers at GM want to go the same direction as Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche.
Mid engine cars are not fun to work on. My friend, who is a service manager at Classic Chevrolet is being trained to service the C8 and he was blown away by the amount of technology in the car.
For instance, you will not be able to change the battery without the official GM battery maintenance management software - same as Porsche. Replacing anything on the front of the engine like belts, would require the removal of rear bumper, engine/transaxle and he says the labor for that is estimated at $7800 - just like Ferrari and McLaren. And good luck taking this dry sump engine to just any oil change place. You have to change the oil with engine running and using a vacuum and basically exchange the oil- just like Ferrari and Lamborghini.
I will almost guarantee that the new C8's will be very similar to what Audi, Porsche and Ferrari are doing by having a vehicle management suit that works along side the OBD. There will be an proprietary ECU controlling everything like transmission, clutch, exhaust, voltage, oxygen sensors, ignition, drivetrain, suspension etc. That way you will have to go to a GM service shop and pay the $$$ to get service.
58225
This is my 2017 Grand Sport.
I had a black 1990 C4 in high school (2000 era) and put the ZR1 17" wheels and Borla exhaust on it. The C5 ZO6 was just coming out around that time. I don't know if I'm excited about the C8. I like it but I also like a front engine Corvette. I think the C8 will outsell every generation Corvette by volume but to me, its like the designers at GM want to go the same direction as Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche.
Mid engine cars are not fun to work on. My friend, who is a service manager at Classic Chevrolet is being trained to service the C8 and he was blown away by the amount of technology in the car.
For instance, you will not be able to change the battery without the official GM battery maintenance management software - same as Porsche. Replacing anything on the front of the engine like belts, would require the removal of rear bumper, engine/transaxle and he says the labor for that is estimated at $7800 - just like Ferrari and McLaren. And good luck taking this dry sump engine to just any oil change place. You have to change the oil with engine running and using a vacuum and basically exchange the oil- just like Ferrari and Lamborghini.
I will almost guarantee that the new C8's will be very similar to what Audi, Porsche and Ferrari are doing by having a vehicle management suit that works along side the OBD. There will be an proprietary ECU controlling everything like transmission, clutch, exhaust, voltage, oxygen sensors, ignition, drivetrain, suspension etc. That way you will have to go to a GM service shop and pay the $$$ to get service.
I give it 12 months before HP Tuners and EFI Live have a way to unlock the ECU.
Anyone here ordering a C8 already? I think I'll wait to see how it shakes out, and probably for the Z06.
Never buy a first year Vette. The first year they find all the problems. The second model year they try and fix them all. The 3rd year model year is safe to buy.
Lucky!
I'll be ya'll made your own ice cream, too!
LOL, we did! We also canned all our own vegetables and my grandpa had the honeybee hives. :)
RAMAIRTHREE can drink a 12-cup carafe of coffee all by himself! 😲
🙂
Well if you want a 1st year C8, you'd better act quick!
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/07/28/2020-chevy-corvette-nearly-sold-out/?yptr=yahoo
Digital_Damage
07-29-19, 15:10
So... some people are really advocating that they want a manual over a TREMEC? WTF...
So... some people are really advocating that they want a manual over a TREMEC? WTF...
Well, imo
Daily drivable performance cars are way more fun with a manual. So like 99% of its existence if not more.
Pure performance driven track cars? Sure auto all day for all of the reasons espoused in this thread.
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Anyone here ordering a C8 already? I think I'll wait to see how it shakes out, and probably for the Z06.
So... some people are really advocating that they want a manual over a TREMEC? WTF...
I would prefer a true manual, yes.
So... some people are really advocating that they want a manual over a TREMEC? WTF...
Well I might prefer a Sadev SMG over a Tremec DCT (derived from the HDM DCT's used in Mercs/AMG, Ferrari & McLaren), but a TKO? Nope! :D
I used to do wheelies in my '67 Nissan Patrol. :p
Digital_Damage
07-29-19, 17:21
Well I might prefer a Sadev SMG over a Tremec DCT (derived from the HDM DCT's used in Mercs/AMG, Ferrari & McLaren), but a TKO? Nope! :D
No one is putting a dog into a street car...
Well to my knowledge, to do so would be nuts.
So... some people are really advocating that they want a manual over a TREMEC? WTF...
All day and twice on Sundays.
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58225
This is my 2017 Grand Sport.
I had a black 1990 C4 in high school (2000 era) and put the ZR1 17" wheels and Borla exhaust on it. The C5 ZO6 was just coming out around that time. I don't know if I'm excited about the C8. I like it but I also like a front engine Corvette. I think the C8 will outsell every generation Corvette by volume but to me, its like the designers at GM want to go the same direction as Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche.
Mid engine cars are not fun to work on. My friend, who is a service manager at Classic Chevrolet is being trained to service the C8 and he was blown away by the amount of technology in the car.
For instance, you will not be able to change the battery without the official GM battery maintenance management software - same as Porsche. Replacing anything on the front of the engine like belts, would require the removal of rear bumper, engine/transaxle and he says the labor for that is estimated at $7800 - just like Ferrari and McLaren. And good luck taking this dry sump engine to just any oil change place. You have to change the oil with engine running and using a vacuum and basically exchange the oil- just like Ferrari and Lamborghini.
I will almost guarantee that the new C8's will be very similar to what Audi, Porsche and Ferrari are doing by having a vehicle management suit that works along side the OBD. There will be an proprietary ECU controlling everything like transmission, clutch, exhaust, voltage, oxygen sensors, ignition, drivetrain, suspension etc. That way you will have to go to a GM service shop and pay the $$$ to get service.
And if I’m paying Porsche maintenance I’ll drive... a PORSCHE.
I like YOUR car.
Good taste.
Do you autocross or attend Track Day Events?
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No one is putting a dog into a street car...
Well to my knowledge, to do so would be nuts.
My TA has a face plated T56 ;-)
Digital_Damage
07-29-19, 18:47
My TA has a face plated T56 ;-)
Thought that was a Syncromesh?
Edit: just googlefooed... ohh crap people are doing aftermarket face plating for street rides?
My TA has a face plated T56 ;-)
Be still my heart.
I miss my 4th gen [emoji20]
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Thought that was a Syncromesh?
Edit: just googlefooed... ohh crap people are doing aftermarket face plating for street rides?
“Street ride” used loosely lol
No synchros 1-4. 5th and 6th have synchros.
Be still my heart.
I miss my 4th gen [emoji20]
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I just don’t think I have ever bring myself to sell it.
No one is putting a dog into a street car...
Well to my knowledge, to do so would be nuts.
Utterly impractical? Absolutely. Speaking to my inner rally car spirit? Utterly. ;)
And if I’m paying Porsche maintenance I’ll drive... a PORSCHE.
I like YOUR car.
Good taste.
Do you autocross or attend Track Day Events?
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Thanks! I don't track my Corvette. I have a Porsche 996 GT3 that I run in SCCA TT/PT and Porsche Club Racing.
58240
Thanks! I don't track my Corvette. I have a Porsche 996 GT3 that I run in SCCA TT/PT and Porsche Club Racing.
58240Every nice!
While I do appreciate Vettes and think they are a great car. I would still rather spend my money on a used Porsche. While I'd love to have a 993 I'm sure I'll be looking at 996s they produced way more and you can get a lot of car for the money in the used market.
Back on topic with the C8...
I'd have to really research how the automatic or what ever they call the new technology in this car works. The last car I had with an auto/manual mode was an Audi A4 with the Tiptronic transmission. It seemed cool at first but as I started using it I notice it would step in if I ever went too slow or tried to accelerate too fast. You could push the gas pedal down about 90%, but if you when that last 10%it's like you were pressing a button and it would automatically down shift to a lower gear.
After a little bit of that I just left it in D and never bothered shifting any more.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
07-30-19, 07:09
I saw a headline that the C8 Corvettes are 'sold out'.
Very nice elephant...thank you for sharing
Thanks! I don't track my Corvette. I have a Porsche 996 GT3 that I run in SCCA TT/PT and Porsche Club Racing.
58240
Much Awesomeness! [emoji1362][emoji41]
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Back on topic with the C8...
I'd have to really research how the automatic or what ever they call the new technology in this car works.
DCT isnt really a new technology.
DCT isnt really a new technology.Hey rjacobs,
I was referring to the automatic transmission vs manual debate. I think there are pros and cons to each. And really comes down to your driving style and preferences. Years ago automatics sucked and would never be used for serious use. But now they are way more sophisticated and can be faster than manual transmissions... guessing you know all that already.
Before buying any car in a non manual I'd research how the automatic version worked as some are more quasi manual.
For example:
Corvette - Tremec
Audi - S Tronic
Porsche - PDK
BMW - Steptronic
Mercedes - 7G-Tronic (or newer versions)
As I stated in my last post, in hind site I would not have bothered with the Tiptronic I got with my B5 series A4.
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tiptronic is a regular ol slushbox auto with a torque converter as far as I know... no comparison to a DCT except maybe it has paddle shifters...Its more like the A8 in the C7 vette which is a terrible transmission.
DCT runs two shafts with 4 gears on each so they are always spinning and it just engages one clutch or the other. Odd gears are on one and even gears are on the other. So the next gear is already spinning and ready to go.
DCT has been out for a while in other cars, so its not new.
If the C7 had adopted the 10spd out of the Camaro ZL1 I would be driving one of those right now instead of my 7 speed manual Z06... The 10spd auto in the Camaro ZL1 is a superb transmission for being a regular ol torque converter slush box. It runs more like a DCT trans from what I understand(2 gears always engaged).
Before buying any car in a non manual I'd research how the automatic version worked as some are more quasi manual.
This is precisely why old school stick transmissions are still my jam - any sort of 'suggest-a-gear' setup is just too frustrating for me, and the DCT setups need much more exposed settings through the firmware/computer setups where I can have sporty bang-shifts, or much more pedestrian clutch application that has more mechanical sympathy... but I guess even having those consideratoins makes me a customer that no car company is actually interested in building cars for.
Hey rjacobs,
I was referring to the automatic transmission vs manual debate. I think there are pros and cons to each. And really comes down to your driving style and preferences. Years ago automatics sucked and would never be used for serious use. But now they are way more sophisticated and can be faster than manual transmissions... guessing you know all that already.
Before buying any car in a non manual I'd research how the automatic version worked as some are more quasi manual.
For example:
Corvette - Tremec
Audi - S Tronic
Porsche - PDK
BMW - Steptronic
Mercedes - 7G-Tronic (or newer versions)
As I stated in my last post, in hind site I would not have bothered with the Tiptronic I got with my B5 series A4.
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The idea of manually operating your transmission with a clutch is going the way of dial up internet. Different manufacturers have different names like you mentioned but basically they are all 6 and 7 speed automatic transmissions using dual clutches and solenoids to ship gears using a paddle or button without the use of a foot operated clutch. I had a Porsche Carrera 4 with PDK and to be honest, I didn't see the performance value. Porsche claims you can operate the car in both manual and automatic and shift gears without any interruption in power or loss of acceleration. No matter how much praise people gave the PDK, at the end of the day it was a dual clutch automatic 7 speed transmission.
The PDK and every other dual clutch transmission is in actuality a work of engineering genius. But if I wanted to drive from Dallas to Houston, I would shift up to 7th gear for economical reasons and the car would always automatically put it in 6th. If I wanted to drive this car like I stole it, I would want to shift at the higher RPM's and especially from 2nd to 3rd and wanted to shift around 6,800-7,000 RPM's the car would automatically shift around 5,600-6,200 without any input from me. I wasn't in total control unless I was in sport mode and even then, I would like to keep the car in say 2nd and throttle into 3rd it would shift into 4th because RPMs weren't high enough. If I want a full throttle 3rd gear overtake, you can't have it. PDK changes to 2nd or even 1st. You cant use TC in eco mode or touring mode only in sport. And lastly if you in 4th or 5th and your RPM drop the car will automatically shift down to a appropriate gear.
I drove that car 95% of the time in touring mode on automatic settings.
I think the corvettes will be the same. You have limited control in eco, touring mode and have more control in sport, track mode but the transmissions computer will still do what it thinks is best and work around a factory set parameters.
In all honesty, the dual clutch transmissions are great but they are built for everyday drivers who want economical performance available to them but not 100% of the time.
The idea of manually operating your transmission with a clutch is going the way of dial up internet. Different manufacturers have different names like you mentioned but basically they are all 6 and 7 speed automatic transmissions using dual clutches and solenoids to ship gears using a paddle or button without the use of a foot operated clutch. I had a Porsche Carrera 4 with PDK and to be honest, I didn't see the performance value. Porsche claims you can operate the car in both manual and automatic and shift gears without any interruption in power or loss of acceleration. No matter how much praise people gave the PDK, at the end of the day it was a dual clutch automatic 7 speed transmission.
The PDK and every other dual clutch transmission is in actuality a work of engineering genius. But if I wanted to drive from Dallas to Houston, I would shift up to 7th gear for economical reasons and the car would always automatically put it in 6th. If I wanted to drive this car like I stole it, I would want to shift at the higher RPM's and especially from 2nd to 3rd and wanted to shift around 6,800-7,000 RPM's the car would automatically shift around 5,600-6,200 without any input from me. I wasn't in total control unless I was in sport mode and even then, I would like to keep the car in say 2nd and throttle into 3rd it would shift into 4th because RPMs weren't high enough. If I want a full throttle 3rd gear overtake, you can't have it. PDK changes to 2nd or even 1st. You cant use TC in eco mode or touring mode only in sport. And lastly if you in 4th or 5th and your RPM drop the car will automatically shift down to a appropriate gear.
I drove that car 95% of the time in touring mode on automatic settings.
I think the corvettes will be the same. You have limited control in eco, touring mode and have more control in sport, track mode but the transmissions computer will still do what it thinks is best and work around a factory set parameters.
In all honesty, the dual clutch transmissions are great but they are built for everyday drivers who want economical performance available to them but not 100% of the time.
Actually, the DCT transmissions - and PDK - are AUTOMATED MANUAL transmissions.
What year was your car?
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tiptronic is a regular ol slushbox auto with a torque converter as far as I know... no comparison to a DCT except maybe it has paddle shifters...Its more like the A8 in the C7 vette which is a terrible transmission.
DCT runs two shafts with 4 gears on each so they are always spinning and it just engages one clutch or the other. Odd gears are on one and even gears are on the other. So the next gear is already spinning and ready to go.
DCT has been out for a while in other cars, so its not new.
If the C7 had adopted the 10spd out of the Camaro ZL1 I would be driving one of those right now instead of my 7 speed manual Z06... The 10spd auto in the Camaro ZL1 is a superb transmission for being a regular ol torque converter slush box. It runs more like a DCT trans from what I understand(2 gears always engaged).
Wish I knew more about the actual technical differences...there are several owners of multiple DCT's on the car forums saying they feel the design of the A10 is better?? I've also seen some comments where european mfg's are now making their own versions of the Ford/GM design?? I guess we'll see what comes down the pipe. Wish I had a hands on comparison, Having never been behind the wheel of dct I can't say what real world differences are to the A10.
I agree with elephant about this new auto techno gobbling up the future & see nothing but them getting better & better...I just hope the manual isn't abandoned in the process. The fact the GT500 & C8 are not even offering one out of the gates is sorta creepy IMO. My A10 doesn't hold back on the rpm shifts when in sport / track / performance mode & always shifts at redline. When in drive, You can tap the accelerator to the floor & the trans will drop to optimal gear for a dash in the 4500 range. If you are in manual mode, hold the paddle or gear shifter in a down shift for 1-2 seconds and it will drop to an optimal gear just under redline at 5500-6000 but you gotta be quick to start up shifting and/or throw it back into drive. Hard to get it to bite most times.
You are correct about the A8 GM tranny...it was/is a total disaster. My final decision when I went to buy came down to the A10 ZL1 & the Manual GS vette. My understanding why they didn't offer the A10 in the C7 ZR1 was simply due to fit & the Manual is really the only way to get that ride. So hoping they offer the LT5 in the Gen7 ZL1...IF GM decides to save the Camaro.
Wish I knew more about the actual technical differences...there are several owners of multiple DCT's on the car forums saying they feel the design of the A10 is better??
Supposedly its faster than the PDK(which was the fastest for several years). Im guessing the Tremec DCT in the C8 is as fast.
The design of the A10 is supposedly similar to a DCT, but I believe it has gears split between 3 shafts and 2 are always spinning and of course it has a normal torque converter vs. the DCT.
I also HEARD the A10 physical size is no different than the A8, but they didnt want to design a transaxle case for it for the Vette since the Camaro, trucks, etc... are all engine mount transmission. I also heard if they had designed a transaxle case for it, THEN the physical size would have been a little big. BUT had the A10 been put in the Vette starting in 18, my 19 Z would have one vs. the 7spd manual, even though I LOVE manual transmission sports cars, the A10 is just that good. If the Tremec 8spd DCT turns out to be as good, nobody will complain about the lack of a manual.
ETA: I also heard the A10 in the ford's was NOT as good as the A10 in the chevy due to programing differences, as well as slight internal differences, although overall the trans is the same.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-01-19, 10:49
Was watching Top Gear on Prime with my son and they had the ‘new’ Jag d-type and an Aston Martin from about 1960. Ny synchros. More grinding than at The Peelers when I have a stack of 20s I don’t know what to do with... wouldn’t buy those cars after those guys drove them, and Clarkson can heal-toe.
I like manuals too, but it’s kind of electronic fuel injection versus carbs- carbs are cooler, but you’ll be faster with the new stuff.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-01-19, 10:49
Double
ETA: I also heard the A10 in the ford's was NOT as good as the A10 in the chevy due to programing differences, as well as slight internal differences, although overall the trans is the same.
Probably not a fair comparison but I do have the A10 in my company F150 that I just happened to turn 100k miles today after only 14-15 months since taking delivery & getting the tranny serviced tomorrow (been a fantastic vehicle w/ the 5.0 btw)...like you, I understand the core is the same but every A10 is going to have internal differences for each application be it a Ford F150 to the mustang. They stated on Camaro6 that the ZL1 even has some internal differences to the SS A10 & guess that is due to needs of the added 200hp??
I can tell you when driving normally around town you cannot even feel the ZL1 shifting vs the truck which is still good, it's just the GM feels much more refined (again, not a fair comparison)...my ZL1 reaches 8th gear at only 45mph @ a little over 1000rpm & has a top speed of 200 they tested on some track in Germany & stated it did not leave 8th gear. Both 9 & 10 are overdrive. That is a pretty amazing window for one gear if indeed factual.
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