View Full Version : Question about CCR terribly botched Beretta 92A1 refinishing?
DeathNinja
07-21-19, 19:08
I have a NIB Beretta 92A1 that a local gunsmith destroyed the finish on converting the thing to "G" decock only, he literally destroyed the finish by working with the slide on an unprotected surface which served to scratch the crap out of the slide, he didn't hurt the frame because he didn't have it. At any rate I had never heard of this Cummings Custom outfit before, and I didn't want to wait 3-months on an overpriced Robar NP3 job, so after talking with a nice lady at this CCR outfit I shipped them the Beretta 92A1 slide to plate in what they call "Dusk," again a finish I had never heard of before, apparently a NiB nitride finish which they blacken in some fashion. I offered to pay them a premium over catalog for expedited service but she assured me it would be swiftly turned around absent a premium payment.
So, it comes back Saturday the 20th, on cursory inspection it looks nice, I install it back onto the frame and check its movement, its seems fine, I go out back and I run 60 rounds through it, my first clue something was amiss was the brass ejecting into my face, something I have never had any of a good dozen 92's ever do before. This erratic ejection continued and so I stopped at 60 rounds and took the pistol apart, and inspected it. I was shocked to immediately discover severe wear to the internal slide, specifically the rails which were worn down to the substrate on both sides, but almost full length on the ejection port side of the pistol, whilst on the Beretta's type III hardcoated frame the black finish was worn down and almost entirely off on the left side rails, not the rails themselves mind you, but rather the frame portion underneath the rails! Needless to say it was obviously a terrible job of refinishing, clearly it had build up and such was not corrected at the point of application.
My question is this, the slide can be refinished, but what scares me is that frame, this was a new gun just 6-weeks ago, the frame was type III hardcoated, and the black was almost all removed from it at the location of those rails, does that mean the damn thing took off the hardcoat itself, or is the black just a cosmetic applied over it??? If it was the hardcoat then the frame is dead, I know of no way to reapply type III anodize, and I know of no manufacturer who offer such a service, the implication being type III is a one and done option, there is no 2nd chances with it! If they killed the hardcoat due to an improperly plated slide, then I think it goes without saying they must replace the entire pistol!
Call up CCR, and talk with Mary or Brad. They are good people, so can’t see them leaving you out to dry. I’ve had numerous guns done by them. Only issue was plating chipping on my Glock 30S slide. They redid it, and has been fine ever since.
For the slide, what was the damage that the original gunsmith caused? Don’t get me wrong, not pointing fingers... but I like to know the entire story. You have pictures? You said that it was finish issue due to the surface being worked on... chance that he pinched the bottom upwards?
For the frame, no idea. Can’t tell, but just because there is wear doesn’t mean the frame is toast.
DeathNinja
07-21-19, 21:30
He scratched the slide from end to end, top to bottom, the result of working on the slide on an unprotected hard surface, likely formica, or hardwood... If the hardcoat is gone from the frame, then the frame's life is reduced by a substantial percentage, there is no finish that they can apply to replace it, type III hardcoat is as good as it gets for an aluminum alloy pistol frame, it cannot be reapplied as I recall. So its a big deal if it is stripped away. I learned this lesson via APW/Cogan when we attempted to hard chrome a colt commander alloy frame, in the end Bob replaced the dead colt frame with one from Fusion. As for CCR, I do not know them, had never heard of them before, but had heard from some folks such as yourself how great they were. I talked with her, she's a nice gal, but that doesn't mean much after they screwed up a plating job, by unevenly applying the plating, it was that uneven build-up which ground away on the right internal side of the slide, and seemingly took off all or much of the hardcoat from the left side of the frame. No, can't say I would endorse them to a single person after such a poor job. This wasn't some restoration project, it was a brand new gun which hadn't even been fired yet, the gunsmith damage was strictly cosmetic, thus the steel was all smooth and unblemished, it should have been a simple job, instead I am stuck with a problem courtesy of two separate professionals who definitely failed at their job... The thing I would like to know is whether or not the black stripped away from the Beretta frame is actually the hardcoat, or a cosmetic, my gut tells me its the hardcoat.
DeathNinja
07-21-19, 21:38
Here's another image of the underside of the slide, at the very front, the picture does no justice to the blemish, probably imparted via the firing sequence and courtesy of the build up of to much plating on the internal slide rails...Also, the factory finish was stripped from the barrel on the left side, just as with the frame rails, they really screwed it up.... Keep in mind, this is just 60-rounds, three magazines of nato ball...
You are kind of new to the forum and I hate to be that guy, buttttt.....
You are supposed to contact the shop/seller/manufacturer before venting about poor quality, functional issues, etc.
Screwball says they are good to work with, and if they address the problem - or if the problem turns out to be the first person who worked on your pistol - it kind of paints an unfair picture.
Reference reapplication, the problem is the penetration into the surface of the aluminum: https://www.anoplate.com/finishes/hardcoat-anodize/
All anodizing is a conversion coating in that a portion of the base materials surface is converted from raw aluminum into aluminum oxide. In general terms, for Type III anodize ½ of the coating thickness penetrates into the surface of the parts while the other 1/2 builds up on the surface. Thus for a typical 0.002” thickness requirement, there is 0.001” dimensional change per surface.
These guys, however say it can be done: https://www.pfonline.com/articles/anodizing-qa-stripping-type-iii-hard-anodic-coatings
Sometimes, when stripping the Type III coating, the coating does not strip evenly, especially if it has been sealed. This results in blotchy areas on the part where some of the coating remains after other areas are completely stripped. As a result, you could end up with an uneven surface on any of the surfaces, masked or not masked. Nothing short of resurfacing with a cutting or grinding tool will make the surface even and smooth if this happens. If grinding or cutting that surface will put it out of dimensional tolerance, then you have a problem.
A good practice to follow when stripping all heavy anodic coatings is to soak the parts, or the loads that are to be stripped, in a strong acid bath such as the deoxidizer, or even the anodize bath, for up to 45 minutes, rinse and then strip the coating off. This method breaks the seal, if the parts have been sealed, and softens the coating, making it much easier to remove completely and evenly.
Using a “non-etch” stripper is also an excellent way to strip the anodic coating off of the parts without removing any of the substrate metal. However, if some anodic coating has leaked under the masking, it could result in an uneven surface anyway. This is because of the penetration of the coating in that area.
Zincate-based products are commonly used in non-etch strippers. A non-etch stripper is a chemical solution that will remove the anodic coating (aluminum oxide), but will not remove any aluminum metal.
FWIW
DeathNinja
07-21-19, 23:18
I owe them nothing, no courtesy, no contact, no nothing, they screwed up a simple job and I am out much time and convenience as a consequence, if I was venting I'd have added that she refused to supply me with a tracking number, which contrary to screwball's claim of how excellent they are, is if you do the research on them, a typical occurrence. It would seem that half of sig forum says they are awesome whilst the other half says never again!
You cannot reapply type III hard anodize, not successfully anyway, you won't find a single firearms manufacturer who will do so, they will offer to refinish almost any component part short of an anodized frame, and I am not gonna go forth on a bug hunt seeking someone willing to experiment to see if they can. If the anodize was stripped off by them, or as a result of their poor work, and Beretta will no longer warranty the firearm as a result thereof, then they will be buying me a new one! I don't care how nice they seem, they screwed up a brand new pistol by over-plating it on one side and then they shipped it back off to me, all at my cost, not their own, they owe me the courtesy, not the other way around....
556BlackRifle
07-21-19, 23:58
DeathNinja, did you or did you not contact the vendor and ask them to resolve the issue. See rule #4. If you did, then it's all good. If not you need to do so first.
https://www.m4carbine.net/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_new_faq_item
4) Contact The Manufacturer or Dealer First – Internet forums have a large global audience and unsubstantiated or ill-informed comments will affect the livelihoods of a lot of hard working people in the industry. If you have an issue with a manufacturer or dealer that you would like to resolve, we ask that your first contact them to resolve it.
captdreifus
07-22-19, 01:07
Sorry to hear. Hindsight...buy once, cry once. Shoulda gone with Robar.
joedirt199
07-22-19, 07:07
Hell shooting/using the gun will cause more wear and tear than that. I like a good worn in look. Proves someone put some time behind the trigger not sat in a safe covered in oil just to show off at bbq's. Tiny dimple on bottom of slide and dings on the inside where you won't even see it assembled. First world problems.
DeathNinja
07-22-19, 17:02
This issue is resolved....
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F30%2Fwelcome_to_fail_population_you.jpg&f=1
I would stop calling the first guy a “gunsmith” because obviously he’s not .
More like Bubba .
It’s a gun. A run of the mill beretta at that - not a custom Wilson, nighthawk, etc. Shoot it and it will accumulate wear on all contact points, including the rails. I don’t understand what all the crying is about. And no, you will likely not wear out the rails because some of the surface anodizing is gone.
Look at old Sigs. Anodized frame rails always show wear yet they run, and run, and run.
It's clear the OP has no idea what he is talking about. Hardcoat anodize if for aluminum, your slide is not aluminum. Beretta uses a finish on their steel slides called Bruniton, which is thick and hides the poor finish machining work on most Beretta slides. The Bruniton had to be stripped chemically to bare the steel for CCR to apply their finish.
.
Edit: after multiple re-reads of the OP's OP, I now better understand what he was trying (poorly) to explain, that the slide plating work allegedly damaged the anodized hard coat on the aluminum frame rails. Too much anger coming through in his writing (and screen name???). Still seems like the kind that would complain if they got hanged with a brand new rope.
CCR has done upwards of 8 guns for me, not to mention a crap ton of magazines/small parts. Are they slow? Yes, as they are a small business compared to a place like Robar. Brad and Mary do great work. They are widely known on SIG Forum... if you want to see their work.
I’ve also had guns done at Robar... three to be exact (and a spare cylinder). Price, CCR is more affordable. Did not say cheaper, because I can take my Glock 30S (CCR) and S&W 642-1 (Robar)... and both looked just as good as one another. But CCR does have a few drawbacks...
One, they don’t plate long guns. I did see them do a TAC-14, which mine will be following suit... but I don’t believe they do normal length long guns with plating. And two... they don’t plate alloy frames. SIGs are their bread/butter, and they will not mess with their anodizing. I’ve questioned Beretta anodizing, but I’ve yet to hear anyone state they have done it. The two shotguns and alloy revolver I had done... Robar did. Everything else... CCR. CZ SP-01... CCR will do. SIG P938... Robar.
Am I going to say that CCR didn’t mess up? Nope, because we are all human and I really don’t know what exactly occurred. However, I’m having a hard time seeing/understanding the problem. If there is anodizing being rubbed off the rails, where was the picture of that? But let’s hypothetically say they were in the wrong... I know they would do the right thing, if you give them the chance.
OP, hope all works out for your situation.
titsonritz
07-22-19, 23:06
This issue is resolved....
That's it, huh?
DeathNinja
07-23-19, 12:48
Hell shooting/using the gun will cause more wear and tear than that. I like a good worn in look. Proves someone put some time behind the trigger not sat in a safe covered in oil just to show off at bbq's. Tiny dimple on bottom of slide and dings on the inside where you won't even see it assembled. First world problems.
:suicide: Thats about the ****ing stupidest thing I've heard, almost impossibly stupid! You brats would cry to mama like treed cubs if this shit had happened to your cereal box gun of the week! Only a moron, literally a sub-moron would adopt the attitude of this douche-bag. You ship a gun off to be refinished, and you imply that after dropping hundreds on that refinish, you'd look with what, admiration at the blemishes they introduced to it? The rest of you count to ten and then apply your idiocy to yourselves.... When I send a device off to be fixed, it had best be just that upon its return, and I can assure everyone of you that the above dickforbrains would do exactly that too!
Have you considered trying a different forum? There are places where fit and finish are a larger focus than here.
I know you were very clear before about not wanting to follow the forum rules, but I wanted to point out that personal attacks are also frowned upon here. Again, there may be other forums that are a better fit for you.
https://www.m4carbine.net/misc.php?do=showrules
:suicide: Thats about the ****ing stupidest thing I've heard, almost impossibly stupid! You brats would cry to mama like treed cubs if this shit had happened to your cereal box gun of the week! Only a moron, literally a sub-moron would adopt the attitude of this douche-bag. You ship a gun off to be refinished, and you imply that after dropping hundreds on that refinish, you'd look with what, admiration at the blemishes they introduced to it? The rest of you count to ten and then apply your idiocy to yourselves.... When I send a device off to be fixed, it had best be just that upon its return, and I can assure everyone of you that the above dickforbrains would do exactly that too!
Thanks for stopping by, I don't think this is the place for you Chief.
He didn’t even follow up with how the problem was resolved. Doesn’t follow the forum rules and then insults fellow members.
/thread
It’s ban time.
captdreifus
07-23-19, 19:13
What if you use a stainless steel needle bottle to oil your rails? Will the stainless scratch the finish on the rails?
:suicide: Thats about the ****ing stupidest thing I've heard, almost impossibly stupid! You brats would cry to mama like treed cubs if this shit had happened to your cereal box gun of the week! Only a moron, literally a sub-moron would adopt the attitude of this douche-bag. You ship a gun off to be refinished, and you imply that after dropping hundreds on that refinish, you'd look with what, admiration at the blemishes they introduced to it? The rest of you count to ten and then apply your idiocy to yourselves.... When I send a device off to be fixed, it had best be just that upon its return, and I can assure everyone of you that the above dickforbrains would do exactly that too!
so it's not deleted
joedirt199
07-24-19, 08:41
Sorry for the offense, was just bustin chops. Going to be hard to determine who damaged the slide to frame fitment since 2 people did work and function test was done afterwards. Can't see a surface treatment adding enough difference to rub through type 3 annodizing. Sounds like gunsmith messed up more than just surface treatment.
[QUOTE=DeathNinja;2753757]This issue is resolved....[/QU
Do you mind sharing the details of the resolution?
[QUOTE=DeathNinja;2753757]This issue is resolved....[/QU
Do you mind sharing the details of the resolution?
I doubt he will, he was banned. Lol.
Still says member under his name on my computer.
I guess he had his ban lifted.
He is permanently banned as of now.
I read DeathNinja's backtrail posts. While he seemed to be on the brittle side, in an Olight thread a couple of long time posters showed an awesome lack of reading comprehension. It was painfully funny how they caused him to go bonkers.
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