View Full Version : What is the purpose of M4C? (Hey GD I missed you!)
Eurodriver
07-23-19, 10:47
Woooo this thread is great. Thanks for all the replies everybody.
This is the third post in as many months that has been moved from a perfectly acceptable sub forum to general discussion. Ya’ll know I’m self-banned from posting (but not editing!) in GD. What gives?
I’ve been here 9 years. When I first joined I thought a Mako quad rail was “just as good as” my issued KAC M4 RAS. There are guys joining today who have the exact same mentality I used to. What got me to understand why my Mako rail wasn’t just as good as was a strong sense of purpose on this forum. With the untimely passings of AC and IG, I feel as if two strong voices for that original purpose of M4C have been lost. I’m not meant to disparage any of the current mods (Mark, Serious, JSantoro, SwatCop [I know you hate me] are all doing great jobs) but no one can deny the eloquence of Chuck or the blunt passion of Will.
Guys who’ve been involved in the AR platform for that long have seen the coming and goings of a lot of bogus companies and junk. The platform has evolved so much in this decade. Look at the AR Picture thread for proof. We’ve come from FSB mounted flashlights and plastic OEM furniture in 16” Carbines with govt profile barrels to 16” ELW-F barrels with midlength gas systems hidden by 13” MLOK rails.
Still, almost daily, there are threads by newbies espousing the virtues of a budget build. As realists we all understand that a vast majority of rifles will not see 1000 rounds in their lifetime, and that the most austere conditions faced by these builds will be a light sprinkling of mist if a sudden shower pops up and happens to blow some rain under the cover of their shooting bench.
My understanding is that M4C’s purpose is to always educate and never condone buying sub tier parts for a defensive carbine, and in the words of IG - all carbines are first and foremost a fighting gun.
So what are we doing here? How do we educate without being dicks to new members (guilty as charged) or are we now ok with trying out new start up rifle parts because “everything is just as good as” a Colt which is “just built by the lowest bidder”
There are so many good guys on this forum. Guys who understand the purpose of the gun and that shooting it is more important than shooting pictures of it. M4C is nice because you don’t score any points for buying the latest and greatest. You don’t even score points for being a good shooter.
On M4C, you only score points for trying to be a better shooter. There’s never an end to that.
I’ve been here 9 years. When I first joined I thought a Mako quad rail was “just as good as” my issued KAC M4 RAS. There are guys joining today who have the exact same mentality I used to. What got me to understand why my Mako rail wasn’t just as good as was a strong sense of purpose on this forum. With the untimely passings of AC and IG, I feel as if two strong voices for that original purpose of M4C have been lost. I’m not meant to disparage any of the current mods (Mark, Serious, JSantoro, SwatCop [I know you hate me] are all doing great jobs) but no one can deny the eloquence of Chuck or the blunt passion of Will.
Guys who’ve been involved in the AR platform for that long have seen the coming and goings of a lot of bogus companies and junk. The platform has evolved so much in this decade. Look at the AR Picture thread for proof. We’ve come from FSB mounted flashlights and plastic OEM furniture in 16” Carbines with govt profile barrels to 16” ELW-F barrels with midlength gas systems hidden by 13” MLOK rails.
Still, almost daily, there are threads by newbies espousing the virtues of a budget build. As realists we all understand that a vast majority of rifles will not see 1000 rounds in their lifetime, and that the most austere conditions faced by these builds will be a light sprinkling of mist if a sudden shower pops up and happens to blow some rain under the cover of their shooting bench.
My understanding is that M4C’s purpose is to always educate and never condone buying sub tier parts for a defensive carbine, and in the words of IG - all carbines are first and foremost a fighting gun.
So what are we doing here? How do we educate without being dicks to new members (guilty as charged) or are we now ok with trying out new start up rifle parts because “everything is just as good as” a Colt which is “just built by the lowest bidder".
There are so many good guys on this forum. Guys who understand the purpose of the gun and that shooting it is more important than shooting pictures of it. M4C is nice because you don’t score any points for buying the latest and greatest. You don’t even score points for being a good shooter.
On M4C, you only score points for trying to be a better shooter. There’s never an end to that.
I came to M4C 9 years ago and the only thing I knew about AR's was it was a civilian version of my M16A2 that I had in the Army. I thought that my newly purchased Ruger AR was as good as any and even on par with Rock river Arms! Talk about receiving an education after joining this site! Needless to say I soaked up as much as possible as depending upon whose speaking still do. I'm like you Eurodiver and feel that things have changed over the years. I became friends with Chuck and always read with interest IG's posts. You cold never learn too much from the both of them! The same with the other SME's and Mods. However, things have changed and there seems to be more complacency now when it comes to dealing with subpar weapons, parts and well, attitudes. The highlighted question and statement above couldn't have been better put.
When I read certain posts now, and see exactly what Euro is talking about, then see multiple responses from newbies that have no clue, not that I have anywhere near the expertise that IG had or others here have, I cringe and leave the post. Now , that I have just said this maybe that is the answer to your question. If those of us that have been here for a bit and have at least gleaned the knowledge we have from those before us, stay in those threads and respond in a way that the post takes a better direction the newbies will learn. Just a thought.
A lot of folks stopped checking in here for a variety of reasons. I saw a few old names pop up in the RIP Iraqgunz thread. I and a few other members have disagreed with the heavy handed use of thread closures and referrals to the "Search" function.
Traffic here is slow enough that we can re-hash old topics. This is still the ONLY gun forum I visit. But there's almost a deliberate drive to limit traffic.
Doc Safari
07-23-19, 11:37
A lot of folks stopped checking in here for a variety of reasons. I saw a few old names pop up in the RIP Iraqgunz thread. I and a few other members have disagreed with the heavy handed use of thread closures and referrals to the "Search" function.
Traffic here is slow enough that we can re-hash old topics. This is still the ONLY gun forum I visit. But there's almost a deliberate drive to limit traffic.
Here is the problem I see.
On the one hand we are told "do a search function before starting a new thread."
Then when an old thread is located and replied to, we are made fun of for "necroposting."
That's very schizophrenic. Can't have it both ways.
Sure, when I joined in 2010 it was all serious all the time and I appreciate SME's and operators telling it like it is with regard to quality and serious training etc.
This place hasn't been that for a long, long time. Without the newbie posts this forum would be even less lively.
I know--I'm about serious use and top tier equipment, too, but I can appreciate "how do you like my AR" threads too. It takes all kinds to make a forum. If it goes all serious the owners of the board may as well only allow vetted law enforcement and military members. That'll weed out the newbies.
I've watched this place get to the point that the crickets chirp very loudly.
Sure, I've posted some off the wall stuff, but I try to post things that are ENTERTAINING. I never made any other promise.
Yet half the time something I post just causes a slew of attacks and trolling when the trolls could just ignore the topic if they don't like it.
Much as I like this place, that's the reason I've gravitated back to TOS.
So I probably just wasted time posting all this but at least I feel better if it turns out to be an epitaph.
Most would rather go to the echo chambers AR groups on Facebook where you’re considered a fool for buying anything other than a budget build than come to a technical forum like M4C.
For the first time since I graduated high school I am not directly involved with the industry and so this has become my slice of sanity. I still love M4C, I visit daily and I’ve made some great friends from it, but definitely missing chuck and will.
A lot of folks stopped checking in here for a variety of reasons. I saw a few old names pop up in the RIP Iraqgunz thread. I and a few other members have disagreed with the heavy handed use of thread closures and referrals to the "Search" function.
Traffic here is slow enough that we can re-hash old topics. This is still the ONLY gun forum I visit. But there's almost a deliberate drive to limit traffic.
A lot of folks stopped checking in here for a variety of reasons. I saw a few old names pop up in the RIP Iraqgunz thread. I and a few other members have disagreed with the heavy handed use of thread closures and referrals to the "Search" function.
Traffic here is slow enough that we can re-hash old topics. This is still the ONLY gun forum I visit. But there's almost a deliberate drive to limit traffic.
The biggest thing I remember from when I first came here is people being referred to the orange search button. I feel it actually happens far less now. I agree that it’s worth rehashing certain older topics but often there are so many that are repeated in new threads that it gets frustrating. It’s hard to balance what is worth discussing again and what is just useless noise. Usually if I’m being a dick, it’s because we’ve seen so much of the same BS over and over for years that the patience just isn’t there to tell people in a fluffy way that all they have to do is look around here instead of creating a new thread.
I do wish we had more discussion about the hows and whys and as Euro said, actually getting better at shooting. Almost the entire time I’ve been a member, I’ve been limited to shooting twice a month at best and often closer to every other month. That sucks, so I read to try and figure out what works best for others, so that it hopefully shortens my learning curve. That’s a big part of the reason I started the thread about what we learn from our shooting, that and keeping a log of my own discoveries so I can go back and reread vs spending range time relearning stuff I forgot. I think Euro was the one that had the thread that was basically an ongoing competition with various drills and scores, I’d like to see that one pick back up even though it’s hard for me to take part.
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I miss the no BS attitude that M4c used to be. I admit that I don’t visit here as much as I used to. I was a sponge here for several years. Now I can’t figure out if I know what I need to know or this forum is just white noise now a days. I still come her to look at the pictures and try to find new technical information.
The_War_Wagon
07-23-19, 12:27
I miss the no BS attitude that M4c used to be.
We ran OFF some good SME's in the old days too, like Rob S. and Jay Cunningham, along with their expertise. I was around when that happened (and am still not sure WHY it happened!). I was part of the first PA/OH/WV study groups with Jay, Gutshot John and some others, and it seems the "get togethers" were more common then, too. I know folks drove Rob S. nuts over "the Chart," and folks ran wild with it all over the interwebz. Some mfgs. even altered "the Chart," to make their product look better. :eek:
I've waxed and waned on here over the years. I built a couple of AR's last year - my first in 7 years - and this is the ONLY site I came to, to find our what was "new & improved" since 2011. Keymod was already on the way out, in favor of M-lok, and I was still on DD quadrails, for example!
There's no place I'll go to OTHER than this site, for AR info - or most ANY firearm info, for that matter. The 1911 info is as good as the 1911 dedicated sites. I'm nowhere NEAR an 'SME' on any of it though. I just hope our remaining SME's step up (and maybe we recruit some more) to try and fill the shoes of AC and IG both. Their no-BS attitude will be missed.
Doc Safari
07-23-19, 12:38
I watched Rob S get pretty insulting at times. I'm pretty sure that's why he was banned.
I watched Rob S get pretty insulting at times. I'm pretty sure that's why he was banned.
He was a complete blow hard jack off. He only appointed himself as knowledgeable. His banning was, IMO, one of the best things to happen to the site.
I don't mind a guy being condescending to folks if the situation warrants it and they've actually been there and done that. But he shot some matches and took a few classes and thought he knew everything.
The_War_Wagon
07-23-19, 13:43
He was a complete blow hard jack off. He only appointed himself as knowledgeable. His banning was, IMO, one of the best things to happen to the site.
I don't mind a guy being condescending to folks if the situation warrants it and they've actually been there and done that. But he shot some matches and took a few classes and thought he knew everything.
Ahhhh... PROTO-ptmccain? :jester:
RobertTheTexan
07-23-19, 15:31
IG - all carbines are first and foremost a fighting gun.
So what are we doing here? How do we educate without being dicks to new members (guilty as charged) or are we now ok with trying out new start up rifle parts because “everything is just as good as” a Colt which is “just built by the lowest bidder”
There are so many good guys on this forum. Guys who understand the purpose of the gun and that shooting it is more important than shooting pictures of it. M4C is nice because you don’t score any points for buying the latest and greatest. You don’t even score points for being a good shooter.
On M4C, you only score points for trying to be a better shooter. There’s never an end to that.
You know I don’t have the time on M4C as you do, I’m not an Afghanistan/Iraq war veteran, I’m only a Bosnia veteran (‘94). But I’ll tell you and anyone else reading this the conclusion I came to about 3 yrs ago.
M4C really shines when we are engaged in a war. That’s where the rubber-meeting-the-road starts and finishes.
Why did Lightfighter.net go downhill?
The war ended. Fudds invaded.
When we are actively engaged in combat, weapon manufacturers are making new RELEVANT shit, our guys on the bleeding edge are trying it and talking about it. Kit manufacturers are making new kit and its being fielded and we hear about it after maybe after stateside rotation.
We have very few shooters left. Some guys who used to shoot people in the face have moved on. The ones we do have don’t suffer fools because they’ve been suffering fools for the past 8 years.
I realize I could be super way off on my assessment. Regardless if everyone thinks I am, I have honestly thought this for the past 3-4 yrs. LF.net deteriorated. M4C deteriorated. It’s just the law of the land. It’s what happens.
So what can I do? I try to pass on what I have learned from people on here who have spent the time to teach me. From the the guy who has shot a shit ton of bad guys in the face taught me. Who logged 96 months of combat time has passed on to me. To guys who have expended thousands of rounds down range as a civilian, spending money on training etc etc also taught me. I learned from true gun guys who really are savvy in their own space.
I combine that with my own experience in building and shooting and I try to pass that on. Do I usually feel way under qualified? Absolutely ALL the time, but to me, that’s what carrying on M4C is all about. Stepping up where we can step up and paying it forward or passing it along. We cannot let the fighting gun community ONLY contain folks brought up under the TOS mantra. Pardon my French, but our community is totally ****ed if we allow that to happen.
I can’t sit by and watch guys make dumbass decisions without TRYING to help. Because most people here at some time or another didn’t know shit. Sure they may have been 17 yrs old, but at some time we all lacked knowledge. I just can’t slam a dude because he buys some Instagram looking bullshit, WITHOUT trying to show him “The Way”. It’s ok to call a guy a dumbass but the problem is when it ENDS THERE. Not many people want to school the Idgit buying a Mako rail (or Mako AFG -me). Because our real face-shooters have suffered fools far too long or just have life going on and can’t engage like they used to.
I probably misspelled a bunch of words, I can’t see crap from being in the water in Rio all afternoon.
But this is what I think
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I watched Rob S get pretty insulting at times. I'm pretty sure that's why he was banned.
I learned a lot from this forum when I joined and a lot from Rob. However he was incredibly obnoxious.
I’m the type that researches anything I do or spend money on to the 9th degree. There are M4C.nets for many different disciplines and I look to find those ASAP. There are also robS’s on all of them. Somewhat knowledgeable guys who rack up a crazy post count and feel they should be immune to any criticism. Then they are emboldened by all the enablers who feed their egos
Much of my base level of knowledge from here came from him but once I knew enough to have my own opinions, I realized how condescending and obnoxious he really was. I remember his constant belittling of anyone who considered anything but a milspec trigger as using a “crutch”. Jackass
You know I don’t have the time on M4C as you do, I’m not an Afghanistan/Iraq war veteran, I’m only a Bosnia veteran (‘94). But I’ll tell you and anyone else reading this the conclusion I came to about 3 yrs ago.
M4C really shines when we are engaged in a war. That’s where the rubber-meeting-the-road starts and finishes.
Why did Lightfighter.net go downhill?
The war ended. Fudds invaded.
When we are actively engaged in combat, weapon manufacturers are making new RELEVANT shit, our guys on the bleeding edge are trying it and talking about it. Kit manufacturers are making new kit and its being fielded and we hear about it after maybe after stateside rotation.
We have very few shooters left. Some guys who used to shoot people in the face have moved on. The ones we do have don’t suffer fools because they’ve been suffering fools for the past 8 years.
I realize I could be super way off on my assessment. Regardless if everyone thinks I am, I have honestly thought this for the past 3-4 yrs. LF.net deteriorated. M4C deteriorated. It’s just the law of the land. It’s what happens.
So what can I do? I try to pass on what I have learned from people on here who have spent the time to teach me. From the the guy who has shot a shit ton of bad guys in the face taught me. Who logged 96 months of combat time has passed on to me. To guys who have expended thousands of rounds down range as a civilian, spending money on training etc etc also taught me. I learned from true gun guys who really are savvy in their own space.
I combine that with my own experience in building and shooting and I try to pass that on. Do I usually feel way under qualified? Absolutely ALL the time, but to me, that’s what carrying on M4C is all about. Stepping up where we can step up and paying it forward or passing it along. We cannot let the fighting gun community ONLY contain folks brought up under the TOS mantra. Pardon my French, but our community is totally ****ed if we allow that to happen.
I can’t sit by and watch guys make dumbass decisions without TRYING to help. Because most people here at some time or another didn’t know shit. Sure they may have been 17 yrs old, but at some time we all lacked knowledge. I just can’t slam a dude because he buys some Instagram looking bullshit, WITHOUT trying to show him “The Way”. It’s ok to call a guy a dumbass but the problem is when it ENDS THERE. Not many people want to school the Idgit buying a Mako rail (or Mako AFG -me). Because our real face-shooters have suffered fools far too long or just have life going on and can’t engage like they used to.
I probably misspelled a bunch of words, I can’t see crap from being in the water in Rio all afternoon.
But this is what I think
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Actually yeah this is it. It really is. ARs are becoming a hobby for college kids. For MOST LE use, a basic 6920 with a light and RDS handles pretty much anything. A lot of the more advanced fighting rifles did evolve from 3 gun (to a point) and evolved to suit a specific wartime niche.
Now unless the Trumpenfuhrer insists we go to war with Iran for reasons; there’s kinda no point.
I say let people buy their garbage and deal with it. If more people are into guns; less likely people can ban it due to hurt feelings and emo kids.
Me personally I am getting out of guns ( but not shooting). I have shot the same stuff for nigh 20 years and none of it was some wacky gun. They were all toys. I get not harshing on new folks but at the same time this really is not the board to be airing divorces, bemoaning being a virgin at 40, or trying to be in some larpy thing like TOS.
The point is...does it shoot. The more interesting things I have seen both on this board and shooting with other members is that their stuff worked and hit what it shot at. I think longer rails are a good idea and that optics are more mainstream but unless there is a radical advancement then yeah...a lot of what 90% of people need to know has already been said, reworded, reiterated, and dumbed down.
Hammer_Man
07-24-19, 14:55
Robert and Firefly have pretty much summed up a lot of my thoughts already. You can only rehash the same theme/subject material so many times.
Perhaps to breathe some life into the forum, a transition from gear reviews/questions could be made toward training/shooting. Instead of making fun of somebody's Red/Purple anodized AR, we as a community could try educating that person on how to properly use it in a gun fight or competition. Perhaps we could have internal competitions amongst users, where we see who can run a certain drill the most efficiently. The winner gets a high five, and maybe a trinket from one of our sponsors. Guys with Putple anodized guns will then be inspired to concentrate on running their equipment, and become less focused on bling. I'm just thinking out loud...
I joined at a time when I was getting back into AR's, from a past time where you either had a Colt, Olympic or Bushmaster and rails didn't even exist. Re-entering the AR realm was bewildering to an old guy with some cash to burn and renewed interest. I came for advice on what to buy and what not to buy, and for the most par I benefitted greatly from that wealth of knowledge that existed here at the time.
I have more AR's now that I ever had before (which was one at a time), and I'm still buying and building, so I appreciate when others here buy stuff, try stuff and report their findings. Sure I spend more time posting in GD because I'm heavily invested in politics and law, but I still open every thread I see on gear and equipment, because I want to remain informed.
That's what I came here for and that's what I remain here for.
It's all evolutionary, here, lightfighter, all of it. I think the beginning of the downhill slide was when the SMEs stopped posting.
I never bought into the tit-for-tat argument/condescension; that's your problem, not mine. But I've done a pretty good job of staying above the fray.
It's not the same, for sure. But I still enjoy it.
Most of us came over in 06'-07' because of issues at TOS. A lot of knowledgeable members were banned over there and came over to help create a better forum. I still see a lot of the original crew here, along with a lot of posters that put up mirror threads on both sites.
Euro, to answer your question what's the point? I think the point is to point people in the right direction.
Personally I think the fundamental way to do that is through getting them to shoot. Getting them to get training - carbine, pistol, and armorer. The more you shoot the more you learn that some of the budget stuff is crap and what works and what doesn't. The More you shoot the more you understand the 2nd amendment. The more you shoot the better off you are at defending the country if needed from enemies foreign and domestic. We are far from every blade of grass days.
M4C always seemed to be the place where the members actually shoot (or at least most of them). We need to keep pointing people in the right direction and not totally harsh on them so they never come back.
SeriousStudent
07-24-19, 20:03
Jay Cunningham wrote this. I think it's excellent, and still valid today: "Why M4Carbine.net?"
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?26452-Why-M4Carbine-net
Chuck Petrie (God rest his soul) wrote a M4C style guide that has a lot of reasons for this place, when he talks about the "how's" of posting:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?70019-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly-an-M4C-Style-Guide
And I wrote this five years ago about this very subforum that everyone loves and hates:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?161075-M4Carbine-net-General-Discussion-Policy-Enforcement
People come, and people go. Some people, very sadly, leave us before their time.
Personally, for me, M4C is a place where I get to hang out with friends and learn. I have been here since the first few months of the site starting. Yes, it's changed.
Do I wish some of the folks who used to post would come back? Absolutely.
Am I happy that some people will never come back? You bet your sweet ass I am. I helped a statistically significant number of them on their way. And believe me, a bunch of the people who have been banned here have been banned on just about every other forum they visited. It might actually stun some folks, but a lot of us talk. To each other. About problem children.
But folks are always welcome back, who left of their own volition.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-24-19, 21:11
Ah, The Chart. The Ten Commandments of the AR world and my first insight into the quantifiable and qualitative differences between rifles. Heck, my first AR was an Olympic Arms lower kit. I sent the upper to Compass Lake to have the barrel free floated- how retarded was that. I can't imagine what he thought when I asked him to do it. All pre-M4C, hell it was last century.
Now I drool over the phosphate finish on quality LPKs.
On the 'search' versus necro-posting, I actually say start a new thread. If all we do is reference old threads, you are assuming nothing has changed (maybe it has, maybe it hasn't) but search just makes this site a FAQ to reference. There is at least always a new way of discussing stuff, and it helps to shake the cobwebs loose.
I agree that the pace and need for change in technology has slowed down, or maybe I realize that my kit is pretty well optimized (if not a couple or years out of date), but that I need more work on my software or familiarity with the hardware than getting new hardware. Sitting here right now, I can't tell you off the top of my head how many ARs I have, or course I have only two complete rifles, everything else is a lower and an upper for a purpose.
I don't know if the 'Why' was looking for a "how do we make it better". In the past I think there were some attempts at training/drills. I think that you'd need to highlight overall performance and improvement. I'm not into participation trophies, but I think something should be done to incentivize performance and improvement.
So what are we doing here? How do we educate without being dicks to new members (guilty as charged) or are we now ok with trying out new start up rifle parts because “everything is just as good as” a Colt which is “just built by the lowest bidder”
There are so many good guys on this forum. Guys who understand the purpose of the gun and that shooting it is more important than shooting pictures of it. M4C is nice because you don’t score any points for buying the latest and greatest. You don’t even score points for being a good shooter.
It's still the unforum. We've lost more than two good guys, Tim Orrack (hope I spelled that right) knew almost everything about everything.
The tech forums are still strong, GD is GD and it's probably impossible to have a "professional GD", especially one that would allow both you and I, and a dozen other members, to post their inane thoughts and occasional insights.
If you don't think this forum still has it's shit wired tight, go spend an hour on Glocktalk. Even HKPro, which doesn't allow any OT discussion has been invaded by the clone crowd who post absolute nonsense and have never even held an actual HK firearm. All things considered I think this is as good as the internet gets.
The community of M4C serves its purpose very well in representing an environment of idea exchange and support. I don't get this in my area. I regularly attend a rifle range where everybody sticks with their own business. It truly feels like a bunch of loners trying not to be judged or to judge someone else based on their performance or behavior at the red line. Granted wearing ear plugs and being under the constant supervision of the RO does damper the conversing atmosphere. The good news is that I am seeing more and more older shooters adopting the AR15.
I have maybe discovered a void in my life where there is a need for more interaction than just shooting. I know that I miss some of my family members as we all used to shoot and hunt together. Until I join some club, you group of dysfunctional, like minded people, whom I will probably never meet outside of the electrons that create this forum is my replacement.
He was a complete blow hard jack off. He only appointed himself as knowledgeable. His banning was, IMO, one of the best things to happen to the site.
I don't mind a guy being condescending to folks if the situation warrants it and they've actually been there and done that. But he shot some matches and took a few classes and thought he knew everything.
Yeah, he was a major leg humper. Used to flip me shit all the time for using old "fuddy duddy" shooting methods that were inferior to his amazing jedi ways.
Actually required me posting videos of him and I shooting the same course of fire, at HIS shooting club on a stage he designed and me still outshooting him...badly. I used to record everybody shooting so that I could evaluate, learn and compare to what I did to see if there was anything to pick up.
If I didn't happen to have those vids, Mr. Chart would still probably be here letting me know I can't shoot for shit. I also remember his thread where he flatly stated that an AK could NEVER compete with an AR in practical shooting but then in the same thread he mentioned that he was able to outscore several AR shooters with an AK. Obviously something only Jedi Rob would be capable of.
We ran OFF some good SME's in the old days too, like Rob S. and Jay Cunningham, along with their expertise. I was around when that happened (and am still not sure WHY it happened!).
Rob S. ran himself off. His departure improved the culture.
Diamondback
07-24-19, 22:03
I'm just gonna say this... I consider myself still a n00b and there's still a lot ahead of me to learn, but what headway I have made in this sphere has been because a bunch of you guys have at various times picked me up and carried me, nudged me, even given the odd boot-to-the-ass helping me tack in a generally "Suck Less" direction. If we weren't occasionally rehashing old topics as new products enter the market and old ones go extinct, we could easily go the way of GunHub--excellent Signal-to-Noise ratio on technical quality, but most board activity a bunch of old-timers keeping up with each other sharing jokes and such. (Don't get me wrong, GH is a good forum... but many of the guys over there who mentored me are no longer among the living.)
A few other boards I've been on have done an "online shooting league" thing where everybody has one month to shoot the posted course of fire and post pics of their targets, and something similar might be cool here. Maybe even expand it to include both a monthly shoot, and your points scored every month go onto a board for an annual M4C League Champ at the end of the year. Could even do things like incorporating NRA Highpower courses of fire, or using NRAMP ratings to sort us into divisions.
Even HKPro, which doesn't allow any OT discussion has been invaded by the clone crowd who post absolute nonsense and have never even held an actual HK firearm. All things considered I think this is as good as the internet gets.
Sadly true. More “just as good as” clone discussion than discussion of German HK firearms. Sad. I used to love it.
Sadly true. More “just as good as” clone discussion than discussion of German HK firearms. Sad. I used to love it.
Sensei was decent in this regard from what I recall. To bad he tucked tail and ran off during the election.
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Sadly true. More “just as good as” clone discussion than discussion of German HK firearms. Sad. I used to love it.
I have my original HKs and shan't part with them but if you want an HK G3KA4 without hacking up a 91; your options are limited. Parts kits have all but dried up.
Because at some point, I want that version. And yes, purely because of Strike Back.
BoringGuy45
07-24-19, 22:36
A lot of forums like this one go downhill after awhile. This is, and always has been, a tighter run ship than say, TOS, or The High Road, among many others. And, there are a lot more informed facts, opinions, and firsthand experience here than elsewhere. But that being said, this is still largely a hobby site. Anyone can sign up, and other than moderators, there's really know hierarchy here, though it's a general practice that industry professionals and SMEs are given a little extra respect. Various people with interesting and informed opinions come and go, and often, for better or worse, tolerance for various things is loosened up.
A lot of folks stopped checking in here for a variety of reasons. I saw a few old names pop up in the RIP Iraqgunz thread. I and a few other members have disagreed with the heavy handed use of thread closures and referrals to the "Search" function.
Traffic here is slow enough that we can re-hash old topics. This is still the ONLY gun forum I visit. But there's almost a deliberate drive to limit traffic.
I honestly miss the olden days of "Use the search button" *thread locked*. :laugh: And here's why- it forced people to DO their own research- to at least try and understand a topic before asking a question that has been answered 100 other times, or posting an opinion that's wrong. That's how I got into that mentality of "research first, a lot, and then ask if something;s still missing". A lot of people (not necessarily on here) could benefit fromgetting into that mindset more these days, especially since SO MUCH info is just "out there" to be found.
I've seen shit on here in the last couple years that would have brought the banhammer a-swinging down, and I think some of the more "lax" rules have resulted in much of the "white noise" others here complain of starting to become common here.
HOWEVER...at the same time, it's goddam frustrating to do a topic search and only find results from 2 or 3 years ago and think "ok...so...are the opinions/info there still relevant to what I want to do with this item today?"
So...I guess it's just about context of what's being posted...but, that's my .02$ anyway on the topic.
Also, with the dozen new AR manufacturers cropping up every year, we sure could use a new "THE LIST" these days just to short circuit the Poverty-Pony "mine is just as good as the rest" crowd that never ceases to grow and exist...
I watched Rob S get pretty insulting at times. I'm pretty sure that's why he was banned.
Yeah, but I gotta give him some props too- that guy helped me a ton, pointed me in some directions that saved me a ton of time and money, so...I think he's kind of one of my, like "theoretical" role models, in sort of an Icarus way. I've done my best to pass on what I've learned here and elsewhere when and where I can as freely as possible, just like the people that gave me the info to start with, but I always try to think about HOW I'm presenting what I'm saying, because the second you actually start to believe you're an SME...you're wrong.
I can't say I haven't also made a d!ck out of myself here and there, but... I try.
So...if Rob ever stops by here anymore... here's a glass to you, for being a great role model on both sides of the coin.
So I guess with that and how R-tex put it;
You know I don’t have the time on M4C as you do, I’m not an Afghanistan/Iraq war veteran...
...So what can I do? I try to pass on what I have learned from people on here who have spent the time to teach me. From the the guy who has shot a shit ton of bad guys in the face taught me. Who logged 96 months of combat time has passed on to me. To guys who have expended thousands of rounds down range as a civilian, spending money on training etc etc also taught me. I learned from true gun guys who really are savvy in their own space.
I combine that with my own experience in building and shooting and I try to pass that on. Do I usually feel way under qualified? Absolutely ALL the time, but to me, that’s what carrying on M4C is all about. Stepping up where we can step up and paying it forward or passing it along. We cannot let the fighting gun community ONLY contain folks brought up under the TOS mantra. Pardon my French, but our community is totally ****ed if we allow that to happen.
I can’t sit by and watch guys make dumbass decisions without TRYING to help. Because most people here at some time or another didn’t know shit. Sure they may have been 17 yrs old, but at some time we all lacked knowledge. I just can’t slam a dude because he buys some Instagram looking bullshit, WITHOUT trying to show him “The Way”. It’s ok to call a guy a dumbass but the problem is when it ENDS THERE. Not many people want to school the Idgit buying a Mako rail (or Mako AFG -me)....
That's what the "purpose" of M4C is. Maybe it will never be as perfect as the "good ol days" but as long as it's known as someplace people can come, away from the facebook-AR-builder-hackjob-club and insta-thottery "my glock is cool because it has a red trigger and excess slide scales" white noise, and get NO-BS information, instead of platitudes- EVEN if it means slapping a fool down every once in a while...then it's doing the job it's intended to.
I guess on the forum side, the job of the membership is to ask, "is the information I am providing true and realistic?" and not just "opinions" for the sake of responding to a post.
I knew I had progressed personally, as an information-giver, when I could not only unflinchingly pimp-hand a fool, but sit back and say "I don't know" when my knowledge was lacking.
Anyway, I'm just a guy that didn't know the difference between an MOE and CTR stock, or if Magpul furniture was even any good before coming here, and had to ask (yeah, the thread is still out there), back when I started.
Sensei was decent in this regard from what I recall. To bad he tucked tail and ran off during the election.
He ran off over an increasing number of stupid discussions in GD wherein in idiots began posting an increasing amount of egregious idiocy.
I have my original HKs and shan't part with them but if you want an HK G3KA4 without hacking up a 91; your options are limited. Parts kits have all but dried up.
Because at some point, I want that version. And yes, purely because of Strike Back.
Going OT for a moment. Hacking up a PTR which is pretty damn close to a contract rifle is in a different universe than declaring your Omega clone to be just as good or better than Oberndorf rifles. I wouldn't chop a 91 for anything. I wouldn't even chop down a G3 kit because barrels are rare.
He ran off over an increasing number of stupid discussions in GD wherein in idiots began posting an increasing amount of egregious idiocy.
I’d say it was pretty relative
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To all of the SME’s that have hung around and still contribute, Dano, Sinister, Grinch, NongShim, F2S, Docsherm, and anyone else I may have missed, thanks for taking your time and sharing your knowledge. Knowledgeable members, thanks for your contributions. Industry partners and professionals, thanks for being available to answer questions about your products and services.
I started reading posts here in 2010. I think I joined in 2015. I’ve learned a lot.
Now for a gripe. Treat every manufacturer the same. If their stuff is good, say it’s good. If it’s mediocre at best, say so. If it’s a turd, let it be known. I know bills need to be paid, but site or forum sponsor status does not make one the best. If the site needs cash, charge a membership. There are 86,268 members here. A $10 yearly membership fee should pay the bills. Even poors can afford 10 bucks. Maybe, then there would be no need to hide the shortcomings of any manufacturer.
pointblank4445
07-25-19, 01:27
It would seem that the "purpose" of every once-good forum is to transition from idea/information sharing to mere entertainment as any good forum will ultimately be overrun by those that turn the noise/signal ratio to unbearable levels.
That is the fate of every decent forum. And now with social media being a requirement; those that can actually make a living in the industry (ya can't blame Yellow Visor for tryin') have less incentive to engage in forums and help out the little guy. They've got content to create, gram likes to cultivate and 200 classes to teach this year.
grizzlyblake
07-25-19, 06:16
The greatest factor this forum has running at this point is quality equipment vetting.
Doc Safari
07-25-19, 07:24
In general the entire internet has become a sewer of uncivil behavior and arrogance. I wish the gun forums could all be like they once were. I was digging through some old printouts I had made of epic threads on various forums from 15-20 years ago. Amazing that there was generally a desire to help fellow shooters and the snarkiness was mostly absent. I wish the net could be that again.
I was reading this thread below and it is a perfect example of how we used to educate people. The thread is a bit harsh in some areas but definitely not out of bounds and the OP left himself open to all the criticism he received in the beginning. However the thread is full of knowledgeable veterans here steering him in the right direction and giving him solid straight forward advise. A Mod stepped in at one point but from that point forward it was all good. Threads like this one used to be all over the place here and personally I learned a lot from reading those type posts when I first joined. I'd read a like this and end up searching all throughout the site for answers to questions I had and also going into recommended threads that came about within the original thread. The thread below is how it used to be here. It gets good the latter part of the 2nd page and into the 3rd page.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?215888-Anyone-has-a-bootleg-inc-Ar15-upper-what-rail-bcm
In general the entire internet has become a sewer of uncivil behavior and arrogance. I wish the gun forums could all be like they once were. I was digging through some old printouts I had made of epic threads on various forums from 15-20 years ago. Amazing that there was generally a desire to help fellow shooters and the snarkiness was mostly absent. I wish the net could be that again.
This is why this place is still special. It has evolved for sure but it is still a gathering of gentlemen for the most part and you are called out of if you can't purport yourself like a grown up. That is reason enough to drop in every day. There are fewer and fewer places like that online or elsewhere. You can still find folks here with the knowledge and patience to answer a genuine question if you need help with something too.
In general the entire internet has become a sewer of uncivil behavior and arrogance. I wish the gun forums could all be like they once were. I was digging through some old printouts I had made of epic threads on various forums from 15-20 years ago. Amazing that there was generally a desire to help fellow shooters and the snarkiness was mostly absent. I wish the net could be that again.
Sadly very accurate.
Gun forums, well, really any niche forum, seem to have become just another avenue for all the bad that is prevalent in social media. Just another place to flex internet muscle. So many want to be heard it makes it difficult listen.
I have personally caught myself contributing to the wrong side of that equation and tried to correct my wayward thoughts and opinions through becoming more educated.
But with that said, my days on the gun forums are fast coming to an end. It just is not worth it for me anymore. To much static and my filter is clogged.
I do sincerely wish you all the best for the future.
Doc Safari
07-25-19, 08:21
But with that said, my days on the gun forums are fast coming to an end. It just is not worth it for me anymore. To much static and my filter is clogged.
I do sincerely wish you all the best for the future.
Me too. Everything is all social media all the time now. Some LGS's I used to frequent dumped their dedicated websites in favor of their Facebook page. I don't even DO Facebook, dudes.
I also get to where I don't even want to help anyone out because I expect arrogant ingratitude and defensiveness rather than "Thanks for telling me."
Yup. I think once my "acquiring" phase is finally done my internet days are gonna be done too.
You all sound like old men bitching and longingly remembering the good old days.
It is what it is. Adapt!
You all sound like old men bitching and longingly remembering the good old days.
It is what it is. Adapt!
Well, there you have it.
RobertTheTexan
07-25-19, 09:19
You all sound like old men bitching and longingly remembering the good old days.
It is what it is. Adapt!
Just when I’m reading posts here thinking, “you know we still are the best AR forum out there because people are still vested in helping us (M4C) stay relevant and keep our core values.” Then I get to the posts where dudes are like “People are meanies and I’m popping smoke. Laters.”
:lol:
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RobertTheTexan
07-25-19, 09:26
BLUF: Sure things have changed but as it’s been suggested pop on over to the other forums, to TOS, or whatever and you’ll quickly be reminded of why we are still here. Go over to TOS and find a “Chest Rigs 101” thread or some of our threads on comms, we got stuff on first aid bags etc etc. that’s not even getting into the gun side.
Granted sometimes I feel like everyone on M4C just wants to talk about buying complete rifles, we STILL have a solid core group of builders. Me personally, I will always be in that group. We NEED people in both groups and thankfully we have them in spite of the naysayers.
And another truth: as long as we have guys willing to create and contribute to threads like this one, we will be fine. We will carry on and sometimes AC is gonna roll over and other times he’s going to be proud of us. Because as long as we have guys who care about the very question this thread poses, I believe we are going to be fine and keep on rocking our purpose out and helping our community. Some people are gonna get butt hurt, but in the end we are going to help who wants to be helped.
That’s how I see it.
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BLUF: Sure things have changed but as it’s been suggested pop on over to the other forums, to TOS, or whatever and you’ll quickly be reminded of why we are still here. Go over to TOS and find a “Chest Rigs 101” thread or some of our threads on comms, we got stuff on first aid bags etc etc. that’s not even getting into the gun side.
Granted sometimes I feel like everyone on M4C just wants to talk about buying complete rifles, we STILL have a solid core group of builders. Me personally, I will always be in that group. We NEED people in both groups and thankfully we have them in spite of the naysayers.
And another truth: as long as we have guys willing to create and contribute to threads like this one, we will be fine. We will carry on and sometimes AC is gonna roll over and other times he’s going to be proud of us. Because as long as we have guys who care about the very question this thread poses, I believe we are going to be fine and keep on rocking our purpose out and helping our community. Some people are gonna get butt hurt, but in the end we are going to help who wants to be helped.
That’s how I see it.
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Hey, Robert....long time, no chat.
I totally agree, and I think if the site wants to remain relevant, we keep offering constructive advice and mentorship to new people, or people new to shooting. Being an ass should not be part of our culture. That still crops up from time to time and I would like to see that go away.
The site is evolving, not like it was, and what it will be in 5 years probably won't be what it is now, and that's okay. Evolution is fine as long as we remain relevant. What do we do that's different from TOS or others? That's what we need to do and underscore.
sundance435
07-25-19, 10:34
I've been "into" guns for about 20 years and I was around when internet forums were really taking off. The Firing Line was one of the better sites for a few years and High Road wasn't bad, but I popped in both a few years ago and they're complete garbage. Lightfighter used to be the harder-core M4C, but, as others have mentioned, many of the SMEs are gone. However, and I'm channeling my James Earl Jones/Field of Dreams here, the one constant through all of it has been M4C. It's still the only board I check regularly for anything besides what's for sale.
This forum, in particular, greatly shortened the time it would've taken me to arrive at the conclusion of what was quality stuff and good training...likely saved me years of trial and error and probably thousands of $$$. I still check here first for info and I have no problem with "new" threads for old topics because stuff does change.
Others in this thread have a point, too. The "technology" of our sport/hobby/career/lifestyle has improved by orders of magnitude in 20 years to the point that there are only very incremental improvements to be made with existing systems - it's no longer Colt/BCM/LMT/Aimpoint, then Stag, then everything else anymore. That was 90% of the discussion for a solid 10 years. We've got that sorted to the point that a lot of stuff is more personal preference/experience and avoiding fly-by-night manufacturers. That's not a bad thing and this forum still serves a hugely important purpose and it's also why I finally became a sponsor (the only one I pay for). All-in-all, this is still the most sorted-out forum around. I'm on a few C&R-type boards on Facebook and I can't even begin to express the levels of ignorance and incivility there. Facebook is probably the right outlet for those people and occasionally a few of them wander in here, but that gets straightened out in due time.
In short, if I didn't think this site still served a valuable function or that it was useful, I wouldn't come here and wouldn't sponsor it.
This is probably a double-edged sword, as many cite the "declining post quality" here, but I find M4C more "fun" now than a decade ago when I joined.
Back then I considered this forum to be a great source of info, but very serious, almost joyless, in tone. I often found myself not daring to post anything and spent most of my time lurking, only in the last few years have I become a more active poster. Some of that is due to the change in tone on the forum, but a lot of it is due to me changing as a person as well.
Nowadays I can still get good info here, and I can also come on and have a good time sometimes too, which in this era of depressing shit all around us is perhaps almost as important.
I’d say it was pretty relative
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This was his final post:
I think that it is pretty clear where this guy is coming from. In fact, it's been clear for months. The fact that he has made it this far is a sad statement on the quality of the discussion. I'm popping smoke. I have too much at stake to be associated with a forum where there are posts suggesting that fascism is an antidote and Nazism is good.
Unlike others, he has remained absent.
This was his final post:
I think that it is pretty clear where this guy is coming from. In fact, it's been clear for months. The fact that he has made it this far is a sad statement on the quality of the discussion. I'm popping smoke. I have too much at stake to be associated with a forum where there are posts suggesting that fascism is an antidote and Nazism is good.
Unlike others, he has remained absent.
Look at the CBP facebook group BS. Anyone in that group is getting looked up and down and every which way including their Chief just because their were a few douchebags in there. Very easy for the same thing to happen here.
I think things change, life changes, priorities change. I scan the forum almost every day for a bit but don't post like I used to. I came right after 2007 and a tour overseas. I had been member of Lightfighter for years and went to a Pat Rogers class at EAG Tactical. During the class he told me that M4 was the best platform specific forum but he had been tossed. I brought a 14.5" middie home build that he kept eyeing and asking about. That was right before he started using them in his classes.
Technology changes, there is so much knowledge now about the platform and everything to do with it nowadays. The wars really started the tech and knowledge moving forward. Look at the advances in gear, optics, triggers, and first aid (TQ's). With the wars winding down that info is still there but the advancements have slowed down. That's the primary reason the forums have slowed.
It's still a place to read a bit, keep current, and laugh at some posters, and be amazed at the insight and ability to articulate of others. I still learn but don't ask the questions as I have more of the answers than I did in the past. Maybe I need to upgrade, this would be the place to get the ideas. I'm still running Centurion C-4's, SSA's, and T-1's!
Our purpose has possible diminished a little but is still needed for those interested in good stuff, solid advice, and why there's a difference.
I had been member of Lightfighter for years and went to a Pat Rogers class at EAG Tactical. During the class he told me that M4 was the best platform specific forum but he had been tossed.
What was Pat Roger's sin?
Long ago Pat made some comments about the mods and was asked not to come back (per a conversation with him in 2015).
Whiskey_Bravo
07-25-19, 14:28
Long ago Pat made some comments about the mods and was asked not to come back (per a conversation with him in 2015).
Damn, never realized that. Seems like a shitty reason considering who he was and his background.
I've been a member here for 10 years now, and yeah...It's changed some over the years. It's also true that the cool kids are more quick to chime in about how poor/fat/dumb someone is, or how their stuff is "dumpster grade", or suggest that they not reproduce. I get it, though...It's the internet and it's easier for everyone to be an asshole these days.
I eventually abandoned FalFiles because I got tired of the BS...We'll I got tired of one particular petulant know-it-all gas bag being a petulant know-it-all gas bag and running roughshod over the whole membership. I don't plan on abandoning M4C though. I think it's still a great community with much to offer. The fact that we're even having this discussion is proof of that.
Shooting and firearms as a hobby is winding down for me, but even though I'm just a dumb fat guy with dumpster grade stuff, I'll do my best to contribute where I can.
The one thing you could say about Pat is he always gave it to you straight and if that hurt then it hurt. Some people didnt like that.
The one thing you could say about Pat is he always gave it to you straight and if that hurt then it hurt. Some people didnt like that.
You're very right. I think I went to four of his classes and got as much or more from them than any classes I attended. Between the .mil and LEO over the years I had some good classes but his were near the top and definitely the most fun.
I still dig this site quite a bit. Still a lot of really good people with really good info to share. I'm the type of guy that's into different things during different seasons. So I come and go at different times depending on what I'm into/doing. Always check in though.
NYH1.
Pat said something to me that stuck with me, and I still use the phrase when I teach: "....and thus education has occured."
He was a great instructor/SME. This site has seen the best come and go (and some are still here)....
Hammer_Man
07-25-19, 15:16
I would like to see some SMEs come back, but I think they probably get tired of the back talk from the keyboard commandos. Their level of experience, and knowledge would greatly enhance what we have going on here, especially in the training section, which seems dead at the moment.
Fostering a stronger emphasis on training/shooting would also help curtail the BS, as most of the BS seems to occur in the gear/build related posts. All arguments about equipment kind of go out the window when the shot timer starts, and rounds start going down range. You're either proficient with your weapon, or you're not. Overall I think this is one of the best gun forums out there, and that is why I come back.
Doc Safari
07-25-19, 15:18
I would like to see some SMEs come back, but I think they probably get tired of the back talk from the keyboard commandos.
I was personally offended when people starting criticizing Larry Vickers' weight and therefore his credentials. We all get old and deteriorate physically, for (expletive)'s sake.
That made me so mad I wished we could ban the people that did it from any electronic device.
I never met Pat. But one of our members here has a quote that says: “Shoot that mother****er until it changes shape or catches fire.” I use that all the time when training others to get past the “two shots and assess” mentality.
I first came here in ~2009 after I sold my Bushy and I was trying to buy a new rifle. Found it via Google, and I was pretty new to the internet in general. I was well versed in employing the weapon, but didn’t know shit about buying one. I immediately noted the no BS feel this site had, and felt that the advice here was more duty-oriented than other sites. I ended up doing a “build”, but thats a whole ‘nother story. I combed this site for like 3 months before I bought anything, and around 6 months before I finished buying parts. After I finished my “build” I pretty much returned to not using the internet all that much for a few years. I didn’t even have a smartphone until dec 2014. I remember because I was in paramedic school and my flip phone shit the bed enroute to a clinical rotation.
I ETS’d in 2016 (stupid, very stupid) and joined the Reserves(also stupid), and was no longer constantly surrounded with shooters. So I started lurking here again to get my gun info.
I started posting here fairly recently because I realized I would enjoy contributing/participating in conversations with other members. Plus I get bored as shit when I’m working in rural areas waiting for something to happen.
I was personally offended when people starting criticizing Larry Vickers' weight and therefore his credentials. We all get old and deteriorate physically, for (expletive)'s sake.
That made me so mad I wished we could ban the people that did it from any electronic device.
Yeah that was kind of stupid. I’ve disagreed with some of LAV’s comments enough that’ll I’ll likely never pay to take a class from him, but none of that changes his experience or knowledge.
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Yeah that was kind of stupid. I’ve disagreed with some of LAV’s comments enough that’ll I’ll likely never pay to take a class from him, but none of that changes his experience or knowledge.
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I respect Larry professionally on the subject of employing the weapon, but run into problems on other more personal subjects and do not utilize his opinions when I run my debit card.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-25-19, 16:15
I was personally offended when people starting criticizing Larry Vickers' weight and therefore his credentials. We all get old and deteriorate physically, for (expletive)'s sake.
That made me so mad I wished we could ban the people that did it from any electronic device.
Exactly. He made a video about it if I remember right. Something along the lines of why I am fat or something like that.
"The Chart" brought me here after researching what to buy for my first AR. I remember being really close to buying a Stag at a local fudd shop and having second thoughts and deciding that much more research needed to be done. Hours and many noob questions later I purchase a DD and have been on the fun train ever since.
This site still has much usefulness when it comes to knowledge even if it doesn't have as many SMEs as it once did. It has helped me get into longer range stuff, optics, etc.
Doc Safari
07-25-19, 16:25
Exactly. He made a video about it if I remember right. Something along the lines of why I am fat or something like that.
One of the most humiliating things I've ever watched. I can only imagine how he felt. That soured me on the gun culture BIG TIME. The same people that humiliated that poor man are most likely the ones that defend their fourth-rate build as being better than Colt. A pox on 'em.
I was personally offended when people starting criticizing Larry Vickers' weight and therefore his credentials. We all get old and deteriorate physically, for (expletive)'s sake.
That made me so mad I wished we could ban the people that did it from any electronic device.
LAV's weight never affected his credentials or expertise, but it did affect his credibility somewhat. He recognized it, and took care of it. But I was never in the dog-piling camp because of his weight.
In full disclosure, I love his training, and although I have not had any of his classes in a couple years, I have taken many, many of his classes. And I will get back to doing so again.
Doc Safari
07-25-19, 16:50
In full disclosure, I love his training, and although I have not had any of his classes in a couple years, I have taken many, many of his classes. And I will get back to doing so again.
If he ever holds a class within driving distance of me, I will do everything I can to sign up.
I joined in 2009 and knew absolutely nothing about AR’s. Was given THE CHART at US Autoweapons in Snottsdale AZ. I bought my first AR about that time during the height of the Obama scare. I was just a hunter, not shooter. I called SGC and they said they had one Bushmaster in stock- “ hold it for me”. When I got there a Colt 6945 was being placed on the wall, God Bless the guy who said, “you want the Colt?”.
After learning a couple things on M4C, I bought parts and pieces to build my own but didn’t know how for shit. IG said he would build it for me. I bought everything based on what I was told to buy from this site. He came by one night to do so, with Markm in tow. We were prepared for greatest except he brought no tools. My new neighbor Markm lived right up the street and never let him off the hook for that move. The rest is history.
The purpose for me was a wealth of knowledge about something I knew nothing about. Many new friends, some of which I shoot with weekly, others that we text back and forth about this craziness. Jwknutson-Jake , Gaian-Todd & Big D to name a few. I’ve even PM’d the Wildman hisself, Euro!
It remains a jihad against shitty AR’s. RIP IG.
PB
One of the most humiliating things I've ever watched. I can only imagine how he felt. That soured me on the gun culture BIG TIME. The same people that humiliated that poor man are most likely the ones that defend their fourth-rate build as being better than Colt. A pox on 'em.
Especially considering the weight gain was injury related from years of doing stuff his critics would have never been able to do. The silver lining was that he was made aware or put in touch with a group that specializing in fitness for those with service related injuries / challenges and he benefited greatly.
I've personally disagreed with a few SME's on this or that, but that isn't the same as declaring them to be wrong. What works for them sometimes doesn't work for me as well as something else and more importantly since I'm not jumping into Bosnia my situation isn't always going to be their situation.
But I have found that no matter what, I almost always manage to learn something useful from most of them. Even Rob gave us "the chart" and that really simplified a lot of discussion. Things either were or they were not. It's a shame he didn't stick to research and presenting his findings.
Five_Point_Five_Six
07-25-19, 17:54
I posted this in another thread a few weeks or so ago and figured it applies here as well. M4C was at it's greatest when we were at war. The training topics were straight fire, people taking classes, posting AAR's, posting videos. Now we argue about movie reviews. That's not to say I don't still enjoy this forum, it's just different, and it was inevitable.
Maybe we need this war with Iran to make shooting M4's great again? I mean, peak GWOT days was lit af fam. I kinda miss it. No FB, no IG, just everybody out there living our best lives with quad rails, FSBs, Comp M2s, 60 lumen incandescent Surefire lights, and salty USGI mags.
I've had a ton of free time lately recouping from a life changing injury, and I spent several days just going back and reading old threads from the 06-12 time frame. It was fun and interesting to see what the new hotness was at the time, and to see how some of it faded as quickly and how some is still relevant today. One day, I even popped in the old Magpul Dynamics DVDs for a fun trip down memory lane. Costa and Haley kinda shun that material these days, but if 99% of the blow hards on Facebook gun groups were to watch those videos and put in the work learning those skills, they'd be much better prepared than imitating things that look cool on IG.
Forums are kinda returning to the level of popularity that they had in the late 90s and early 2000s. They got really popular but over the years they've dwindled back down. Look at P&S, that forum is a ghost town, yet it's very active on FB. There will always be the die hards that prefer forums, I do, but it's a FB and IG world now. Oh, and Glock Talk is still full of retards.
I think the intent of the site still remains today, although it may not appear so. Others have mentioned audience changes, evident in any weapon site I look at. There's always going to be resident trolls, good or bad, new members that are retards and new ones that have knowledge and are chased off because they are new in the pack. Big thing is one becomes the king of his fiefdom based on the time he/she can spend on a site.
We all owe it to the forum community to simply be a good member. Listen, guide and impart knowledge to all members. I've been around for a while, one thing I can say is I read some things to learn, occasionally offer help and check up, more like stumble across stupidity.
SME's, the last two decades have created tons of them. I bet a review would list a few current members that would qualify, heck I would for sure. Some probably shouldn't be posting if in their current jobs and that's why you may not see some or they simply can't spend the time in here. That being said, no excuse for the behavior exhibited by some, be it here or in person. Most are good decent and great people. In regards to that, two of them here are prime examples, the only thing saving an ass whipping was jail and loss of a job (s)
Yeah in the early days we had some classes, but ethics, business practices and attitudes kept me from going to any more and which is why most stopped as well. Some people are not who they portray themselves to be. Thing is fella's, don't make it your life, have fun, learn and helps others.
I'm done rambling for now. Be decent, post on!
YOU determine your own level of participation in Project Mayhem.....
Sadly folks won’t do their own research and/or testing etc....
they just want the answer they want or hope will fit
Example I bought my friends crap gun and now want to be told it’s awesome
Not just this forum either in general it’s today’s idiocy of many :)
Long ago Pat made some comments about the mods and was asked not to come back (per a conversation with him in 2015).
I made that mistake on LF'er. I dared to call out R. Moron on something he was jumping someone for and got the boot.
I joined in 2009 and knew absolutely nothing about AR’s. Was given THE CHART at US Autoweapons in Snottsdale AZ. I bought my first AR about that time during the height of the Obama scare. I was just a hunter, not shooter. I called SGC and they said they had one Bushmaster in stock- “ hold it for me”. When I got there a Colt 6945 was being placed on the wall, God Bless the guy who said, “you want the Colt?”.
After learning a couple things on M4C, I bought parts and pieces to build my own but didn’t know how for shit. IG said he would build it for me. I bought everything based on what I was told to buy from this site. He came by one night to do so, with Markm in tow. We were prepared for greatest except he brought no tools. My new neighbor Markm lived right up the street and never let him off the hook for that move. The rest is history.
The purpose for me was a wealth of knowledge about something I knew nothing about. Many new friends, some of which I shoot with weekly, others that we text back and forth about this craziness. Jwknutson-Jake , Gaian-Todd & Big D to name a few. I’ve even PM’d the Wildman hisself, Euro!
It remains a jihad against shitty AR’s. RIP IG.
PB
Go figure. I always figured you and Markm were father/son. Now it’s going to be extra creepy when you guys talk about one another [emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think a lot of mentorship is also invisible. When it comes to things where I have a strong knowledge base (like HK firearms) I have helped a LOT of people buy good rifles and avoid bad rifles via PM. I did my one "HK G3/91" thread and based upon that I have gotten a lot of PMs over the years.
I imagine it's the same for a lot of other people when it comes to builds, training/tactics or whatever the actual subject. A lot of things are never spelled out or posted in the open for whatever reason, in some cases it's because the individual doesn't want to come across looking like grand pubah / king of all information even if they actually know their stuff. Sometimes they just don't want to argue with the tard contingent.
But like several people have already pointed out, that is the nature of the internet and forums. It's actually even worse on other forms of social media where anyone can post whatever the hell they think in a hit and run fashion. We have the benefit of not being a huge forum, so people kinda know who is who, who knows what, who is probably just blowing of steam and who is just posting oddball stuff because that is what they do.
There was a time I was literally on every forum. Now this is pretty much it. It's a crowd I can deal with that is willing to deal with me and I don't have the free time to spend 10 hours a day posting every random thought that runs through my brain.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-25-19, 22:56
I am an SME on not knowing things.
Diamondback
07-25-19, 23:06
I am an SME on not knowing things.
They say true wisdom lies in being aware of what one does NOT know. :)
I come here to read and learn, but post occasionally. Too many other gun sites are filled with some real wackos who range from borderline Nazis to somewhere on the fringe to where they can't be identified. I don't want to listen to a constant bombardment about the Flat Earth, the Sandy Hook Hoax, the Military Industrial Complex, how bad America is with our constant wars and the root of all problems in the world is because of Jews. I think in the gun community are a lot of decent people, but online are a lot of fringe, nut job operators. Some are just downright stupid people - some are really nasty people. I consider myself an old fashioned Goldwater Conservative, who is socially and fiscally Conservative, but I have some Libertarian tendencies when it comes to Nation Building in third world shit holes.
I'm a fairly well educated person who has seen a lot in my 59 years. I have some perspective from things I've done and places I've been to. I enjoy shooting, and it's any and all kinds of firearms from 18th century weapons to the Old West and modern items. I am not critical of people who buy guns which many here may turn their noses up to. Buy what you can afford, what you like and enjoy yourself. Come to an establishment like this for your firearms edification and learn how to improve what you have, or be happy with what you've got. You won't get any lip from me on it. In my life I've been well off, or times when I sold a gun because I needed the money. I'm not a gun snob - the gun is a tool and an asset to be enjoyed or used for protection, recreation or the ability to turn into cash.
I carried my first M16A1 in 1978 and was eventually issued an XM177 that I carried in my aircraft to Central America. I loved the thing, despite it was well used and would occasionally pop off a couple of extra rounds in semi-auto fire. I progressed to the M4 Carbine in my Army career and bought my first privately owned Colt AR15A2 HBAR in 1988. I still have it, and it's a slab side lower receiver. I even carried an H&K MP5 in my aircraft for a while as my backup weapon. My current inventory of AR type weapons now just includes Colt and LMT, both include SBR's.
My love for the AR system brings back the memory of calling my Dad on a payphone at Fort Knox, Kentucky the summer of 1978 and telling him what a cool gun I had been issued. I still remember describing how it sounded and the lack of recoil because of an integral shock absorbing spring. I was an ROTC contracted Cadet and I was issued a weapons card for the M16A1. They never took that card from me and I still have it, serial number on the card. I have thought about contacting Colt to see if they could track down when that rifle was issued. As an added memory, that Colt M16A1 had a two tone look to it with the upper and lower not matching in color.
OH58D's post kinda touched me a bit.
He's pretty down to earth. I can't say I haven't met some groovy folks through here. Good times.
I think this plays just has ups and downs. There is a lot of good info here and good people. I occasionally get a PM with a kind word(NOTE: If you have PMed me recently and I didnt get back. I'm not being uppity. My PMs dont work or send sometimes so I gave up. So thanks to any who shot me a line) and...
TOS is for guns. M4C is more of a shooting board than most. P&S was interesting but screw facebook.
More to OH58D. I remember shooting for fun before it became work. I will probably not be the rifleman Euro is (Seriously, homeboy can shoot. I seen it. He's like Tom Cruise from Color of Money with that AR.) but my bread and butter is handguns. But I remember when all I had was a Gen 1 Glock(still have it) and a Smith 45 and a good wheel and a 1911. And I still shoot them. I should have stopped with AR15 but in my 20s I had that part time money and played Gun Pokemon and now I realize that was dumb. My tastes have been refined to good honest ARs (and the occasional HK and AUG. Im still and 80s kid).
Now...As I am in my fouth decade, its a young mans game. I'm happy with my 22, my Garand, my cowboy gun and my slutty Colt. I'd rather just ring still and have fun. Maybe not in a "hobby way" but in a fun way.
The MNQ was a wake up call to how lazy I'd gotten. (a couple times a year at an IPSC target within 100 yards is lazy) Pigging doesnt really count.
But it is a good self assessment.
There's good stuff here. Click up shenanigans too but nowhere near as bad as other places.
And I cant really knock the mods. They been more than patient with some of my...."eccentricities" but I've never had a truly negative interaction. M5pt56 has given me good direction pointing me to Bryan Litz's material and a few words of encouragement over the years. Serious Student offered his device when I broke my arm but I had my therapy play dough.
Naw...you could do worse. A lot worse.
Though at times we do kinda jump on new people just because they are cherries. I figure if we, like, just said "Search first and if you dont understand it, come back" it might ease the goon squad culture. Hey, I'm guilty at times too. We forget, guys turn 18 and 21 every day and there is always a new guy in Basic or Police Academy who is an eager beaver and wants "The Best"
I was watching that movie Hackers on YouTube last weekend(its free. that was peak Angelina Jolie) and in the beginning when all these established, misfit hackers are hanging, they all rank on the neophyte who means well and has enthusiasm but nobody really tells him how stuff works. Ultimately he is the last man standing and when he is guided; saves the day.
It just reminded me of how things can be. Anybody can buy a gun, its making it go that counts.
Also me and Sensei didbt always agree but I miss him. He was interesting. But yeah 2016 was just a wild year.
It'll be a solid decade for me next year. Wow.
And....if you miss people. They are still in archives. I'd like to think this place is a bit of a time capsule of how people think/thought. How far we've come and how far there is to go.
Whiskey_Bravo
07-26-19, 06:22
You had me at "peak Angelina Jolie"....
I am an SME on not knowing things.
^^^smartest man in the thread^^^
I would be interested in seeing a change to the way SME titles are displayed. Specifically, I would like to see what a member is an SME in. Like maybe the title of a relevant subforum or something. For example, some people are experts in employing carbines (SME, Training and Tactics), but may not be experts on optics or whatever. And vice versa. If you look in the Emergency First Aid forum, you’ll see a few knowledgeable members on that topic that rarely even post in other subforums. So an applicable title might be SME, Medical.
^^^smartest man in the thread^^^
I would be interested in seeing a change to the way SME titles are displayed. Specifically, I would like to see what a member is an SME in. Like maybe the title of a relevant subforum or something. For example, some people are experts in employing carbines (SME, Training and Tactics), but may not be experts on optics or whatever. And vice versa. If you look in the Emergency First Aid forum, you’ll see a few knowledgeable members on that topic that rarely even post in other subforums. So an applicable title might be SME, Medical.
One thing to note though is SME status is not shown when using Tapatalk.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Regarding SMEs, is there a vetting process? How do SMEs get recognized?
I do believe that the SMEs are a great strength of the forum.
sundance435
07-26-19, 10:45
They say true wisdom lies in being aware of what one does NOT know. :)
I come here to read and learn, but post occasionally. Too many other gun sites are filled with some real wackos who range from borderline Nazis to somewhere on the fringe to where they can't be identified. I don't want to listen to a constant bombardment about the Flat Earth, the Sandy Hook Hoax, the Military Industrial Complex, how bad America is with our constant wars and the root of all problems in the world is because of Jews. I think in the gun community are a lot of decent people, but online are a lot of fringe, nut job operators. Some are just downright stupid people - some are really nasty people. I consider myself an old fashioned Goldwater Conservative, who is socially and fiscally Conservative, but I have some Libertarian tendencies when it comes to Nation Building in third world shit holes.
I'm a fairly well educated person who has seen a lot in my 59 years. I have some perspective from things I've done and places I've been to. I enjoy shooting, and it's any and all kinds of firearms from 18th century weapons to the Old West and modern items. I am not critical of people who buy guns which many here may turn their noses up to. Buy what you can afford, what you like and enjoy yourself. Come to an establishment like this for your firearms edification and learn how to improve what you have, or be happy with what you've got. You won't get any lip from me on it. In my life I've been well off, or times when I sold a gun because I needed the money. I'm not a gun snob - the gun is a tool and an asset to be enjoyed or used for protection, recreation or the ability to turn into cash.
OH58D's post kinda touched me a bit.
He's pretty down to earth. I can't say I haven't met some groovy folks through here. Good times.
TOS is for guns. M4C is more of a shooting board than most. P&S was interesting but screw facebook.
Now...As I am in my fouth decade, its a young mans game. I'm happy with my 22, my Garand, my cowboy gun and my slutty Colt. I'd rather just ring still and have fun. Maybe not in a "hobby way" but in a fun way.
But it is a good self assessment.
There's good stuff here. Click up shenanigans too but nowhere near as bad as other places.
And I cant really knock the mods. They been more than patient with some of my...."eccentricities" but I've never had a truly negative interaction. M5pt56 has given me good direction pointing me to Bryan Litz's material and a few words of encouragement over the years. Serious Student offered his device when I broke my arm but I had my therapy play dough.
Naw...you could do worse. A lot worse.
Though at times we do kinda jump on new people just because they are cherries. I figure if we, like, just said "Search first and if you dont understand it, come back" it might ease the goon squad culture. Hey, I'm guilty at times too. We forget, guys turn 18 and 21 every day and there is always a new guy in Basic or Police Academy who is an eager beaver and wants "The Best"
It just reminded me of how things can be. Anybody can buy a gun, its making it go that counts.
And....if you miss people. They are still in archives. I'd like to think this place is a bit of a time capsule of how people think/thought. How far we've come and how far there is to go.
Ditto everything they said. Fly, I more often than not have a "WTF" look on my face after reading some of your comments, but I always enjoy your posts and you make good points/observations in your own Donnie Darko kind of way. OH58, I've never met you, but I always pay attention when you post. There are a lot of really great posters on here and I look forward to their input. I can't say that about many of the other boards I (in)frequent. I'm almost afraid to go back and look at my early posts, because I guarantee I thought I had something to prove, but wise words and attitudes on here (and life experience) disabused me of most of that. I hope you guys appreciate how much your knowledge means to a lot of us.
Go figure. I always figured you and Markm were father/son. Now it’s going to be extra creepy when you guys talk about one another [emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
More like brothers. I created my name because I joined my first forum and everybody had these baddass , cool military related names and I thought “ I’m just a Papa”.
^^^smartest man in the thread^^^
I would be interested in seeing a change to the way SME titles are displayed. Specifically, I would like to see what a member is an SME in. Like maybe the title of a relevant subforum or something. For example, some people are experts in employing carbines (SME, Training and Tactics), but may not be experts on optics or whatever. And vice versa. If you look in the Emergency First Aid forum, you’ll see a few knowledgeable members on that topic that rarely even post in other subforums. So an applicable title might be SME, Medical.
This makes a lot of sense. You would have the opportunity to pm them with specific questions. Or give the SME the opportunity to list their strengths and choose their areas of expertise.
PB
militarymoron
07-26-19, 12:43
For me, the purpose of M4C has always been pretty simple - share what you know and learn from others. I was going to say 'share and learn in a like-minded community' but we don't all think alike nor agree on everything. I wouldn't have it any different because that's how we learn more and expand our perspectives; from those who think differently, and I, for one, welcome it as long as everyone acts in a civil and respectful manner. The main thing we have in common is our affinity for firearms and shooting, but we've all found other pieces of common ground as we've gotten to know each other, and I like that we discuss more than just firearms.
Nightvisionary
07-26-19, 14:45
Judging from the first page of GD on any typical day the purpose of this forum appears to be bread and circuses, discussing the latest movie or television show. Many days half the threads are about TV
sundance435
07-26-19, 15:09
Judging from the first page of GD on any typical day the purpose of this forum appears to be bread and circuses, discussing the latest movie or television show. Many days half the threads are about TV
I mean, you're on the internet and this is the "general" discussion sub-forum, so...
MountainRaven
07-26-19, 15:41
I, for one, had no idea that m4c was a general discussion forum with a few places for discussing firearms. I’d always figured that it was a forum for discussing firearms with a particular focus on the AR-15 FOW with a sub-forum for discussing unrelated things.
Judging from the first page of GD on any typical day the purpose of this forum appears to be bread and circuses, discussing the latest movie or television show. Many days half the threads are about TV
Comes a time in life when you can't run, jump and shoot like you once did and TV is important.
:laugh:
vicious_cb
07-26-19, 16:52
Im here so I can look cool while LARPing.
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