View Full Version : What ever happened to the Small Frame 308?
A few years back they were pretty well talked about, got decent reviews. Understandably it was DPMS/Remington, Adams Arms, Mega. Back in 2016ish I picked up a new Adams Arms. Cool rifle, functioned well, lighter weight for a 308.
POF has their even smaller frame and lighter weight (higher cost) version. But for an interesting change it seems as though they fell out of favor. Thinking about this is their some link to the Freedom Group getting rid of companies or lack of builder parts for these rifles that are holding them back? Seems it to be a better mouse trap. Rainier Arms has barrels and such available but over all they just don't seem to have caught on. Some insight would be appreciated.
Aren’t the Colt 901/CM rifles a smaller frame?
Dpms is building them
I have a revolution
Mega got bought by zev
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A few others.
Savage MSR is a proprietary small-frame (no idea about DPMS G2 compatibility though, if you wanted to do things like swap your BCG, gas, and barrel for DPMS G2 compatible).
Agree with Jsp10477, the latest Colt CM762 and 6.5 CM offerings seen to be small frame, though again proprietary.
F4 defense is making actual DPMS G2 "compliant" small-frames out of top-shelf quality components (https://www.f4defense.com/product-category/rifles/). This IMHO is one of the newer, more interesting options for a high quality small-frame.
Not a builder or any kind of industry insider. But just from observation, the small-frame is a good idea that is SLOWLY gaining some traction. But it's had a challenge overcoming the established market momentum of the large-frame AR's. I hope it does succeed and that more builders get on board. The big question as with the large-frame AR10's, is whether any kind of 'standard' will emerge (not milspec obviously, but more of a de facto industry standard that everyone tries to be somewhat compatible with, akin to the Remington 700 as the 'standard' for bolt actions).
The big question as with the large-frame AR10's, is whether any kind of 'standard' will emerge (not milspec obviously, but more of a de facto industry standard that everyone tries to be somewhat compatible with, akin to the Remington 700 as the 'standard' for bolt actions).
The SR-25 is the standard for 308/6.5 ar’s. Small frame 308/6.5’s are a niche market. Everyone wants a better mousetrap but until the major players, (KAC, LMT, Larue, DD), go there, it’ll stay niche. The only way they go smaller will be to meet a contract requirement. Why would they? They already own the market and who’s going to dump their APC or MWS to save what, 4-6 oz? I know I’m not.
Not a builder or any kind of industry insider. But just from observation, the small-frame is a good idea that is SLOWLY gaining some traction. But it's had a challenge overcoming the established market momentum of the large-frame AR's. I hope it does succeed and that more builders get on board. The big question as with the large-frame AR10's, is whether any kind of 'standard' will emerge (not milspec obviously, but more of a de facto industry standard that everyone tries to be somewhat compatible with, akin to the Remington 700 as the 'standard' for bolt actions).
I don't think you'll ever see a standard emerge for these rifles unless the US Government runs a trial, selects a winner, and fields them as a M4 replacement. It's not invented here syndrome. The US Military bought a fair number of large frame rifles from Knights Armament and it hasn't moved the needle when it comes to establishing a standard. KAC, LMT, and Armalite are the companies who've had military contracts and have "some" commonality but even this hasn't been enough to establish a standard.
The 700 is a great example of manufacturers and consumers benefitting from using one standard. Same goes for the AR-15, 10/22, 1911, and now the Glock platform.
Was hoping in some respect that the Small Frame would become more of a standard as a few manufactures licensed it and started producing them. If I were to do it again I think I would go with a POF but their hand guard system is something that you are going to be committed to. feeling it is going to die on the vine unless the owners of the patent opened it up to others to produce.
I was excited to try the Mega 308 after seeing it at SHOT a couple years ago, but then it never happened and they were bought by Zev.
Don't want or need to spend KAC / LMT money, so I bought a Colt CM762.
turnburglar
07-29-19, 11:07
I just recently purchased a MSR-10, and have it's second range day sometime this week.
My thoughts on commonality: The AR10 itself is a very low volume rifle. Its fandom here is only because the average poster on this site IS a niche user. The millions of 308's sold every year to deer shooters is a bolt action. The amount of civilian shooters looking for a semi auto 308 that is not a cold war rifle? I'd imagine thats only a couple thousand a year? 308 is very pricey too shoot, and precision ammo through a semi auto? Very small amount of shooters can really swing that stick. I'd bet a majority of AR15's sold never get more than a thousand rounds in a lifetime. I dont have any first hand knowledge; but its pretty easy to speculate that most AR10 sales are in batches or contracts to either military or law enforcement agencies. No single unit or department has identical requirements so it is actually a good thing for them to have semi auto 308 avaialable in different price and weight catagories.
I was trying to figure out how my chosen rifle has been on the market for 2 years and has had relatively low press besides.... the press. I just figure a very small amount of people need a semi 308 and there are ALOT of options. As for the comparision from the LMT to the MSR? My buddy had an LMT and sold it due to weight and cost of ammo. I had limited range time on it and it's insane how different the guns are. The LMT is a hoss, were as the MSR is an AR15 on steriods. I think remington owns the DPMS gen 2 design and I wouldnt be surprised if military units wearing out SR25's start doing field trials. Again, this is purely speculation; but when I was in we only got new shit when our old gear was worn out unless a new mission requirement popped up.
As I gain more experience and datata points on the MSR 10 I will be sure to update the thread I already started. I would like to get out and compare the Savage to the Colt or DPMS guns. If any AZ shooters have one: PM me.
Since OP asked about small-frame, this might be interesting. A while back when considering small frames myself, I talked to Dave, the owner of F4 defense, about why he went the small frame direction. He makes a good case. He has a post on his website that kind of summarizes the design philosophy. From the conversation on the phone, it sounds like there are some good technical reasons to go with a small frame. But, the licensing process with DPMS was lengthy and complicated, and I'm guessing that it's DPMS itself that limits adoption of the G2 design. That's pretty short-sighted on their part. They'd do much better to just 'open source' the design to everybody, encouraging adoption, and then compete fair and square against all the other builders to sell rifles that people will actually buy. Of course they don't want to do that, they think they can 'win' by limiting competition and controlling access to the design. See how that's working out for them? :big_boss:
https://www.f4defense.com/4112-2/
turnburglar
07-29-19, 15:54
Since this thread is about small frames and technical knowledge; I thought I would share a list of videos from a creator on youtube known as 'small arms solutions'. I think he was employeed by Colt for awhile and is considered a firearms historian.
POF revolution
https://youtu.be/qwKNoLXUFXM
Savage MSR 10
https://youtu.be/ooK-2HQqHOQ
Colt 901
https://youtu.be/Xi9ywUJxuso
DPMS G2
https://youtu.be/BYlNDdEOl8s
Ill add a vote for the new Colt CM, I have one it feels like a small one to me.
PB
Would the Daniel Defense DD5 rifles be considered small frame? I owned one and it certainly balanced like a small frame.
Would the Daniel Defense DD5 rifles be considered small frame? I owned one and it certainly balanced like a small frame.
Ive only handled one but I agree, it feels small to me.
PB
Defaultmp3
07-30-19, 22:48
Small frame is a technical term, not just a matter of weight; you can have a small frame .308 be heavier than a large frame. A small frame simply means that from the magwell on back, the receivers are identical to an AR-15. The DD5s would not qualify as small frame (you can easily see the elongation of the receiver right before the RE), while I think the CM762 does.
Would have been interesting to see the RemDef CSASS make it to the market, although being RemDef, it's a pipe dream.
If KAC did a small frame, short barreled setup in 308 and 6.5CM, I'd be all over it. I've heard about the 14.5" 6.5CM SR25 they're working on. Now imagine if that gun were a small frame setup. Same size, OAL, weight as an M4, but with capability to stay supersonic to around 1,200 yards. I am sure the existing large frame 6.5 gun is already plenty light. We've seen how light they can make an SR25, so weight isn't really the issue. I dig the small frame guns because of the reduced length and bulk / size envelope. OAL on a 16" AR10 / SR25 is approx the same as an 18" 5.56. Small frame guns (most) are closer in length, and in some cases identical, to their 5.56 counterparts. I think the difference is quite distinguishable when running a can.
The Remington offerings are linked below. From Remington's website:
Our patent-pending 7.62mm carbine design, re-engineered from the bolt group to the buttstock to deliver 7.62mm knock-down power with the handling characteristics and similar outside dimensions of a 5.56mm AR carbine. The R10's hammer-forged, sniper-grade barrel features 5R rifling for added precision and an effective range out to 800 meters. All R10s have fully ambidextrous controls and free floated modular Remington Arms Handguards (RAHG) (coming soon in MLOK®). As the standard 7.62mm duty carbine of the US Drug Enforcement Administration and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the R10 firearm system is sure to meet your needs as well.
https://www.remingtondefense.com/sniper-rifles/r10/r10-erasr.html - R10 Extended Range Assault Sniper Rifle
https://www.remingtondefense.com/carbines/r10/r10.html - R10
Tspeis
Machinegunnertim
07-31-19, 12:49
Just in case anyone is is interested, I asked Adams Arms customer service and they said their small frame upper will work on the DPMS G2 lower.
I assume the reverse is true as well. So at least two firearm companies are collaborating on cross compatibility to some degree regarding this small frame stuff.
turnburglar
07-31-19, 18:49
I was watching those youtube videos I linked, and think Adams/DPMS may be the only compatible reciever set. Savage and Colt did their own thing and are not compatible with anyone else.
Mrgunsngear
08-01-19, 10:44
Would the Daniel Defense DD5 rifles be considered small frame? I owned one and it certainly balanced like a small frame.
No, it's not
Here’s a picture of my DPMS G2 308 beside my Daniel Defense DDMV7 pro.
The G2 has a Rainer Arms match grade 16 inch barrel with rifle length gas system. I’ve got a little bastard brake on it. It’s a reasonably light handy rifle. The old USO scope on top is a bit heavy. I’m considering something lighter.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190801/7a8786ff95b3b448d6e8bd793213b2d3.jpg
KUSA,
What hand guard do you have on your SF rifle?
I think I will wait my turn in getting a small frame 308. I want to see parts availability and how they hold up in the real hard use world.
Defaultmp3
08-02-19, 22:22
KUSA,
What hand guard do you have on your SF rifle?Looks like an SLR Rifleworks Ion Lite of some sort. Not sure which variant the G2s use, DPMS High or DPMS Low, I'm guessing the latter.
KUSA,
What hand guard do you have on your SF rifle?
Like Default said, it is an SLR. I don’t recall the exact model at this time. It’s 13.5 inches if I remember correctly.
The rifle started out as a Recon model. The OEM hand guard sucked so I replaced it with the SLR. I decided to change the barrel out with a match grade one at the same time. I also put an adjustable gas block on it.
And I had to install a Geissele trigger. The stock one was ok but I’m a trigger snob.
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