View Full Version : Anyone run a Vortex Razor 1-6x on their issue M4A1?
kaltesherz
08-07-19, 17:34
I'm considering getting one on my issued gun and was wondering how the JM-1 reticle does with the M855A1 round and if a 1.93 mount clears a PEQ-15 on the standard non-cool kid KAC rail mounted at the 12 o'clock.
Anyone have any experience? Any feedback is appreciated.
Yes, the FOV will be cleared.
The BDC will not be very close past 300. I’d strongly encourage the MRAD reticle and, if you have the facilities, a true 100m zero.
kaltesherz
08-07-19, 18:56
Yes, the FOV will be cleared.
The BDC will not be very close past 300. I’d strongly encourage the MRAD reticle and, if you have the facilities, a true 100m zero.
What's the benefit of the MRAD? It's hard to find practical reviews that can me figure out if it's worth it.
ETA: All the info I can find on MRAD seems to apply to long range precision (Sniper / SDM) and I'm looking for something simple and quick to use for grunt stuff (and I'm not good at math).
I kind of fail to see the usefulness on 1x6 MRAD on a duty carbine, the hashmarks on a JM-1 might not line up every 100 meters but they will correspond to a range with your duty ammo, learn what that is and you are good to go.
Coal Dragger
08-07-19, 20:04
Just have to memorize your drops in mils.
I don't think there was ever an issue with the ACOG BDC and the PEQ.
Will they let you qual with that too?
I kind of fail to see the usefulness on 1x6 MRAD on a duty carbine, the hashmarks on a JM-1 might not line up every 100 meters but they will correspond to a range with your duty ammo, learn what that is and you are good to go.
With his specific ammo and the very likely range limitations he’ll face, he won’t be able to get a true 50/200 and it’s my experience with the TA31 and M855A1 that the BDC will be significantly enough different beyond 300 that it goes from “close enough” to a miss pretty quickly.
I’ve never shot at anyone fully exposed, it was usually a small portion of their torso before they bopped and weaved somewhere else while we closed the distance and coordinated fires. I’m a huge fan of a BDC reticle (you can read my post history, and I love my TA31) but for his application, I think he would be well served with the MRAD and learning his corresponding POA at the subtension marks.
I have two Razors, both with the VMR MOA and 100y zero. With my ammo, I have a 4.2 MOA drop at 300y, 7.8 MOA at 400y, 12.1 MOA drop at 500y, and 17.8 MOA drop at 600y. With the 4 MOA subtension values in the reticle, that corresponds almost perfectly with each major drop I’ve DOPEd for my carbine.
With above average range estimation skills, I can make confident first round shots out to 400y without having to consider much of a difference in POA from the corresponding stadia.
If I were gridlocked with a BDC that wasn’t designed for my round, I’d be playing the “observe for splash and adjust” game.
Having spent two of my three deployments with an ACOG and M855A1, I’ve made the choice to optimize my personal rifle setup. My OEF clone gat has an ACOG that plays very nicely with 62gr Magtech, so I’m not as concerned.
Also never engaged anyone at exact distances. It’s always ****ed up shit like 172, 330, 419, etc.
Removing as many mental gymnastics as possible makes that problem solving of “2 targets at unknown distance, 350ish meters and 200ish” and making minor adjustments to POA as necessary is simpler to me than having a reticle which lines up at 50/264/380/472 etc.
Just my opinion, being both an ACOG dude that appreciated their ease of use with green tip and a happy Razor owner with a better rifle and ammo than I was issued.
I don't think there was ever an issue with the ACOG BDC and the PEQ.
Will they let you qual with that too?
The ACOG is a non issue being fixed 4x.
It’s only a concern with LPVOs dialed down to 1x.
kaltesherz
08-07-19, 21:34
I don't think there was ever an issue with the ACOG BDC and the PEQ.
Will they let you qual with that too?
As GTF425 pointed out, the 4x magnification of TA31's keeps the FOV from ever getting a PEQ in the way. Hell, I could see fine with a M203 leaf sight up...
I used a personal TA11 for years and greatly prefer to to the issue TA31- twice the eye relief, better FOV and reticle with only a slight loss in magnification. I really like ACOGs as they make range estimation stupid easy and I like having the holdovers to make far off hits, but the eye relief on my issued TA31 is driving me crazy and I got sick of taking my personal TA11 on and off- even with a QD LaRue mount I'm losing my zero (admittedly not by much). I can't leave it on as even after being rattlecanned, it'll screw up SI count as they'll no doubt mix it up with the issued ones.
The Razor has the benefit of looking nothing like an issued optic, has more magnification for PID, and gives me the basic capabilities of a CCO or ACOG (METT-TC dependent). Also since the reticles of ACOGs no longer line up with M855A1 I was hoping the JM-1 would be more accurate. The MRAD gives me more to work with at extended ranges, but I might have to check one out first hand... it looks a little on the complicated / cluttered side (remember, I'm used to lizard brain ACOG grunt shit).
Does anyone make a reticle for M855A1 yet?
I only shot with BDC for a while, now I have a MOA NX8. My first time out at the range I was able to use the reticle fairly easily. There was some guess work, but once I got hits at 550yds, I remembered "400yds was this stadia line, which means this much MOA" at each distance.
For unknown distances, I guess you could range estimate then go off of your known drops on your reticle.
Since it hasn’t come up yet, the JM-1 reticle hashmarks are 1/2 the width of an E-type at their nominal ranges. Might be worth considering if you are getting an optic with the intent of cognitive offloading under stress.
It would be really nice to see some simple auto-ranging reticles designed for M855a1 from a 14.5” with a high mount. Bonus points for SFP.
I wouldn’t put my weapon in the arms room with my personal optic on it.
It would be really nice to see some simple auto-ranging reticles designed for M855a1 from a 14.5” with a high mount. Bonus points for SFP.
https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/sot61233-sig-sauer-tango6t-1-6x24mm-30mm.html
This is the only optic I'm tracking with an A1 specific reticle that meets the above.
kaltesherz
08-08-19, 17:20
https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/sot61233-sig-sauer-tango6t-1-6x24mm-30mm.html
This is the only optic I'm tracking with an A1 specific reticle that meets the above.
I forgot about that one- I know it won the Army bid for SDM optic but I'm skeptical of anything Sig. I've heard they hired a bunch of engineers from Leupold but I still think I'll wait for more feedback. The 1-6x Razor's been around for awhile and has a bit of real world use so I have trust in the system, plus I shot a friends and loved it.
I've had personally owned furniture on my rifle for years and no one's ever messed with it, but maybe it's a little naive to leave a $1300 optic set up in the arms room.
I forgot about that one- I know it won the Army bid for SDM optic but I'm skeptical of anything Sig. I've heard they hired a bunch of engineers from Leupold but I still think I'll wait for more feedback. The 1-6x Razor's been around for awhile and has a bit of real world use so I have trust in the system, plus I shot a friends and loved it.
I've had personally owned furniture on my rifle for years and no one's ever messed with it, but maybe it's a little naive to leave a $1300 optic set up in the arms room.
Dude signs out his rifle-
Dude “hey man, wheres my baller scope?”
Armorer “huh?”
Dude “I had a Vortex on here”
Armorer “it went to the next level of maintenance pre deployment, maybe they yanked it?.?.?.”
Dude “nah man; WTF”
Armorer “C’est la Army.”
Dude “BS!!! I’m gonna hit up the XO!”
XO “you had civilian stuff in the arms room?”
Dude “yeah, and it grew legs!”
XO “ C’est la Army”
Dude “what the ddhhfac kgdf ffjfz! I’m going to ghjf kfd you dfhdders!!! Jeebus wffing fried chicken!!!”
XO “you need to calm down lest ninja punch.”
I forgot about that one- I know it won the Army bid for SDM optic but I'm skeptical of anything Sig. I've heard they hired a bunch of engineers from Leupold but I still think I'll wait for more feedback. The 1-6x Razor's been around for awhile and has a bit of real world use so I have trust in the system, plus I shot a friends and loved it.
Yeah, I've searched high and low for reviews on the Tango4 (discontinued) and Tango6, but all you hear are <crickets, crickets>. Yeah they won the contract but I bet it'll be awhile before they pry those Razors out of the hands of SOCOM guys.
Supposedly the Tango6 & Razor are both made in the same Japanese factory by LOW, but until the SIG topics sees some serious street time, I'd pass for a personal buy.
I guess it just depends on your unit and your relationship with the arms room guys. It might attract more attention from the Armorers to finger bang, mess with. Honestly with a solid RTZ QD, I'd just take it off maybe?
kaltesherz
08-08-19, 20:51
I've been in the unit for 7 years now and because we're Guard, aside from the supply Sgt people aren't in the Arms Room often, and when they are generally my weapon is out with me. Still, it's HQ guys running it and like every unit since the beginning of time- we don't exactly send the best over there. Good thing that LaRue mount is QD...
I was planning getting a Razor with a JM-1 reticle for my personal 11.5 SBR, so I might take that to the field a few times and see how practical it is. As the Weapons Squad Leader it'd be nice to have the magnification for PID alone. A month ago I called up an OPFOR Stryker that ended up being a large OD green bush... I shit you not. In my defense I quickly realized my mistake AND there ended up being an OPFOR Stryker about 50m below it. Getting old sucks...
My best friend as WSL was a good laser range finder. If you wanna go manual ranging, the Recce Pro monocular is another option.
kaltesherz
08-08-19, 21:09
My best friend as WSL was a good laser range finder. If you wanna go manual ranging, the Recce Pro monocular is another option.
Thanks for reminding me, I need to pick one up stat.
Guess I'm just curious seeing that the PEQ is part of the equation. I assume its paired with a PVS14? Do you really want that scope as your low light optic and have to always be messing with the illumination? Its not going to be as robust as your Aimpoint. What about just adding a magnifier that you can add and remove as needed?
Yeah, if you’re a WSL, you definitely need a laser rangefinder with some magnification. A magnified optic with rangefinding features is a good backup. Actually shooting with it, while not unimportant, is secondary to employing the real guns, as you already know. I had mine zero’d and loaded with nothing but tracers for marking in my first couple mags when I was a WSL.
kaltesherz
08-09-19, 12:03
Yeah, if you’re a WSL, you definitely need a laser rangefinder with some magnification. A magnified optic with rangefinding features is a good backup. Actually shooting with it, while not unimportant, is secondary to employing the real guns, as you already know. I had mine zero’d and loaded with nothing but tracers for marking in my first couple mags when I was a WSL.
This is what I'm looking at picking up- w discount it's $300
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-ranger-1800-rangefinders.html
Download a copy of Strelok and play around with it. I think that goes a long way towards making a better informed decision on scopes.
The Tango 6T 1-6 scopes have very good glass and reticle choices. The hellfire m855a1 reticle is SFP and works decently as a red dot on 1x, just have to get used to the rest of the reticle. I have 7.62 version on an SR25 and I’m really enjoying getting to know the hold overs but being FFP I’m finding it to be very fast at multiple distances. Just mounted the Horseshoe dot on my .300 Blackout, haven’t shot with it yet. All of them have excellent illumination. I kind of wish the horseshoe was SFP so the reticle was much larger at 1x. I’ll have to see how that plays out. Still lots of training required on my part to move intuitively through what the scopes are capable of.
This is what I'm looking at picking up- w discount it's $300
https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-ranger-1800-rangefinders.html
I have the 1300 I think, I like it. Vortex has been good to me on several occasions so I like sticking with them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Tango 6T 1-6 scopes have very good glass and reticle choices. The hellfire m885a1 reticle is SFP and works decently as a red dot on 1x, just have to get used to the rest of the reticle. I have 7.62 version on an SR25 and I’m really enjoying getting to know the hold overs but being FFP I’m finding it to be very fast at multiple distances. Just mounted the Horseshoe dot on my .300 Blackout, haven’t shot with it yet. All of them have excellent illumination. I kind of wish the horseshoe was SFP so the reticle was much larger at 1x. I’ll have to see how that plays out. Still lots of training required on my part to move intuitively through what the scopes are capable of.
A more indepth review / photos would be appreciated, as you are the first to really speak about them firsthand.
Will do. Can already say I prefer the FFP scopes over the Hellfire M855a1 reticle. May actually venture into doing a YouTube video. Will compare to Vortex as well.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.