View Full Version : Problem: Trail Boss in .38 Special
Hi all,
I know this is an AR forum, and this is from out of left field, but I also appreciate the knowledge base here, and I know that a bunch of you reload for calibers/guns other than .223 and ARs...
I'm trying to come up with some superlight .38 Special loads for my 3" Ruger LCRx revolvers — I have a wife and daughter who don't like recoil and noise, and this is how I'm going to get them to shoot centerfire handguns.
I'm an experienced reloader using cast bullets in .40S&W and .380ACP on a Dillon RL550B (20+ years, 10,000s of rounds), but this is my first time loading .38 Special and first time using Trail Boss.
I'm using 75gr lead wadcutters and 95gr coated roundnose bullets, seated so that the top groove in the bullet is well inside the case.
I started with 3.0gr of Trail Boss, like all the manual suggest. I'm using Winchester SPPs and once-fired nickel-plated cases with mixed headstamps.
Today I took my first batches to the range with a 3" LCRX and chronograph.
I shot several 10-shot strings. Recoil was satisfyingly negligible, but my velocities with both bullets were all over the place, and some extremely low: Some <300fps, and some >600fps. Standard deviations ranged from the 30s to over 90.
(I'm aware of the danger of a squib load, so I kept shooting over my chrono, so it would confirm each shot that the bullet left the barrel.)
Also, I saw a lot of unburned powder, not only at my shooting bench, but also at my chronograph...
Thoughts:
1. It's not the gun. The same pistol shoots factory rounds just fine (and did so today), and their SD ranges from <10 to 25 or so.
2. I don't think varying powder weights is my problem — I was very careful about setting up my powder charge, and then checked regularly, and it was always right around 3.0gr. (I use an old Dillon balance beam scale, and I calibrated it repeated with check weights.)
3. I'm not crimping these much at all, so much so that I had several "sticky" rounds that didn't want to drop into a chamber. I'll put a bit more crimp on them, with the idea that holding the bullet in the case a bit longer might consistently burn more powder and built more pressure and even out some of those extremely low velocities.
4a. I assume I'm having ignition issues. Should I use a hotter primer?
4b. Should I up the powder charge to get more consistent ignition? The case isn't even half full with 3.0 grains of Trail Boss, and even the rounds at 500-600+ fps didn't recoil much.
Please advise!
While I do not have a 38 Special, I have played around with super light loads in 300 BLK, which is basically a pistol case anyways.
If you are having unburnt powder, it is one of two things, either low pressure or too slow of a powder. Trail Boss is very fast burning, so it is probably just too little pressure. Trail Boss is designed to provide reduced velocity with 100% case fill, and also complete burn.
I have found in low pressure loads that crimping does help accuracy and SD.
In order of priority, I would 1) increase powder charge, 2) crimping, and 3) magnum primer. I think your issues will go away with increased powder charge alone.
Even with increased powder charge I think recoil will still be very low.
Welcome to the world of light plinking loads. I shoot my 300 BLK with a 110 grain Hornady short jacket over Red Dot. It is quieter than a BB gun, literally. It still provides adequate accuracy and good terminal effects out to 50 yards.
I'd guess you're getting velocity swings from the extra case volume combined with such a short barrel/dwell time. You're clearly seeing that the powder charge isn't completely burning.
A hotter, Federal or Mag pistol primer might help goose the burn on the powder. But that long case of the .38 spl (which has it's roots in Black Powder) sucks for internal case volume.
Another thing I've heard of doing is loading wad cutters backwards so the flat tip is in the case, effectively decreasing the internal case volume to mimmick modern day smokeless cartridges. That might stabilize your burns.
Thanks, guys...
I've been loading really light .40S&W for decades... 4.5gr of Unique, which is just enough to consistently cycle the action of a Glock 22 with stock springs. That load is about 1/2 the energy of a full-house factory Speer Gold Dot.
These .38Spl loads are so light that they're 1/4 as much energy as a factory Gold Dot. Comparing them to the .17HMR that I was shooting the same day, the 17 was more energy (power factor 40 vs. <30).
The guys over at CastBoolits also suggested crimping... Since that's the easiest thing to try, I'll do that first.
Failing that, increasing the powder charge would be easy, too.
I don't have any magnum primers, but I could easily buy a thousand and try them... I only hesitate to do that because changing primers in my 550 is a minor PITA, and I don't really want to keep track of another kind of primer...
Don't use Trail Boss for .38 spl target loads. Use a very fast powder. You'll get more consistency.
I'd suggest Accurate Arms # 2
If you have some Red Dot laying around it is also an excellent light load powder. It is very fast and burns completely at low pressures as it is actually intended for light shotgun target loads. While not as "fluffy" as Trail Boss, it is still pretty bulky for weight and provides good case fill still.
I have used a bunch of these powders (Trail Boss, Unique, Bullseye, Red Dot) for these light plinking loads and got best accuracy and cleanest burning from Red Dot.
But increase the charge first before anything else.
Go to the Hodgdon Reloading website and check the load data for .38 Special. I don't see data for bullets lighter than 90g.
Using cases with mixed headstamps is not an issue unless you are developing 50 yard match loads and it still does not make that much of a difference. Winchester small pistol primers are all that I use for .38 Special loads and they are good enough for my 50 yard loads. I also use WSP primers for my J Frame loads. Trail Boss is great gunpowder, but I have not had good luck with using it for .38 Special reloads with projectiles lighter than 158g.
I have had a great deal of success using Winchester 231, Alliant Bullseye and Unique powders for reloading .38 Special. You might try those powders or heavier projectiles if you want to stick with Trail Boss.
Don't use Trail Boss for .38 spl target loads. Use a very fast powder.
If you have some Red Dot laying around it is also an excellent light load powder. It is very fast...
But increase the charge first before anything else.
Too late... I have 6lbs of Trail Boss.
Anyway, Trail Boss IS very fast.
Crimping is easier/quicker, and I can quickly crimp the rounds I've already loaded (and not yet fired), so I'll try that first...
OP...your 3gr of TB is the starting load for a 125g bullet...
It's the starting load for 90gr bullets in the Hodgdon manual, too.
Go to the Hodgdon Reloading website and check the load data for .38 Special. I don't see data for bullets lighter than 90g...
Right, I bought the 75gr wadcutters on a lark... Since 3.0gr of Trail Boss is the starting load for 90gr, 125gr, or 140gr bullets, then it seemed like it would be OK for 75gr bullets.
FWIW, Hodgdon specs 2.7gr of Trail Boss for 158gr bullets, and only 2.0gr for a 148gr hollow base bullet...
Too late... I have 6lbs of Trail Boss.
Anyway, Trail Boss IS very fast.
Crimping is easier/quicker, and I can quickly crimp the rounds I've already loaded (and not yet fired), so I'll try that first...
It's the starting load for 90gr bullets in the Hodgdon manual, too.
Right, I bought the 75gr wadcutters on a lark... Since 3.0gr of Trail Boss is the starting load for 90gr, 125gr, or 140gr bullets, then it seemed like it would be OK for 75gr bullets.
FWIW, Hodgdon specs 2.7gr of Trail Boss for 158gr bullets, and only 2.0gr for a 148gr hollow base bullet...
Then how's your crimp?
I use 5.3-5.5 gr of TB behind a 200gr bullet in a 44 SPL with good results. And that's a much larger case. Primers fresh?
You might load up 5 cartridges with a heavier bullet just to see if things change.
I shoot .357 Trail Boss loads in my Ruger Vaquero with plaited and cast 148 and 158 grain bullets with a taper crimp, and I do not have any un-burnt powder problems.
At the Brian Enos reloading forum https://forums.brianenos.com/forum/4-general-reloading/ They shoot heavier bullets for softer shooting loads and most of these bullets do not have a crimping groove and are taper crimped
My point being you might be better off with 148 or 158 grain bullets and Trail Boss for you lite practice loads. This should stop your un-burnt powder problem or try a heavy crimp on your lighter bullets.
https://www.xtremebullets.com/38-s/48044.htm
Either method should increase the "start pressure" in the cylinder before the barrel gap for a complete powder burn. A revolver is a different animal than a semi-auto pistol and you need to get the pressure up in the "boiler room" (cylinder) and get the powder burning good before the cylinder gap.
Its like tightening up your sphincter muscle for that higher pressure master blaster anal exhale. Your loads you have now are only popcorn farts and you need and some higher pressure wild burrito loads. :sarcastic:
Below some .357 Mag lite Cowboy loads for reference with the bullet weights.
https://i.imgur.com/yNNaO1A.jpg
Then how's your crimp?
Primers fresh?
I think the crimp, or lack thereof, is my problem...
The primers are a decade old, or more, but AFAIK primers aren't perishable, and I just loaded some of these in .40S&W in May and they worked perfectly.
Either method should increase the "start pressure" in the cylinder before the barrel gap for a complete powder burn. A revolver is a different animal than a semi-auto pistol and you need to get the pressure up in the "boiler room" (cylinder) and get the powder burning good before the cylinder gap.
I'm understanding this now — I'm used to reloading for autoloaders, where the "crimp" is just to "de-bell" the case. Looking at this thread, I'm not doing nearly enough:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-much-crimp-lee-fcd-guidance-sought.469815/page-2
Its like tightening up your sphincter muscle for that higher pressure master blaster anal exhale. Your loads you have now are only popcorn farts and you need and some higher pressure wild burrito loads.
Wow... That's a helluva image!
Anyway, I'm going to crimp the loads I have, and maybe load another dozen or two, and then go shoot them today or tomorrow. I'll report back...
Sounds like they'd really like the .32 caliber version of the LCR.
Shoots .327 Federal, .32 Magnum, .32 S&w long and short, and .32 acp.
The .32 acp and .32 Long are very pleasant to shoot and not too expensive. Especially if you reload.
My wife loves hers.
Sounds like they'd really like the .32 caliber version of the LCR.
I really wanted the LCRx with the 3" barrel, exposed hammer, and adjustable sights... AFAIK, Ruger doesn't make that in .32.
I thought about going .22lr or .22WMR, but the trigger pulls on those are s'posed to be wretched.
There's a Ruger MkIV in our future, but not 'til next year...
Anyway, .38Spl should be (!) flexible enough to make this work.
I really wanted the LCRx with the 3" barrel, exposed hammer, and adjustable sights... AFAIK, Ruger doesn't make that in .32.
I thought about going .22lr or .22WMR, but the trigger pulls on those are s'posed to be wretched.
There's a Ruger MkIV in our future, but not 'til next year...
Anyway, .38Spl should be (!) flexible enough to make this work.
You're right they don't. Probably will eventually since they do make it in the 1 7/8 in.
OK, this is what I came up with...
58488
That's one of my "first attempt" on the left, and the newly deeper-seated and crimped attempt in the middle. That's a 95gr bullet, for reference. The line on the middle case is the approximate "fill" line with 3.0gr of Trail Boss.
I'm now seating 0.055" deeper, and based on what I've seen online, that's at least a "medium" crimp.
I hope to try these this weekend...
OK, this is what I came up with...
58488
That's one of my "first attempt" on the left, and the newly deeper-seated and crimped attempt in the middle. That's a 95gr bullet, for reference. The line on the middle case is the approximate "fill" line with 3.0gr of Trail Boss.
I'm now seating 0.055" deeper, and based on what I've seen online, that's at least a "medium" crimp.
I hope to try these this weekend...
That looks like a lot of crimp on the second cartridge. Crimp can make all the difference in the world with group size. Too much crimp can increase group size a great deal. .378" is the minimum case mouth diameter for all my .38 Special loads, with .380" being the norm.
Pull a projectile from a finished reloaded cartridge and inspect the condition of the projectile. If the projectile appears to be damaged, you will rarely if ever see good accuracy.
That looks like a lot of crimp on the second cartridge. Crimp can make all the difference in the world with group size. Too much crimp can increase group size a great deal. .378" is the minimum case mouth diameter for all my .38 Special loads, with .380" being the norm.
I agree... This went against everything I know about loading for auto pistols and rifle rounds.
The revolver guys, though, insist that this kind of crimp is "normal."
See the pictures here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/how-much-crimp-lee-fcd-guidance-sought.469815/
In any case, I'm not looking for ultimate accuracy: just reliable ignition. (These are training/plinking rounds for a 3" purse gun, not match rounds.)
If these work well, then I'll pull a bullet and maybe back off the seating die 1/6th of a turn at a time.
If these don't work, then I'll go to 4.0gr of Trail Boss and go buy some magnum primers.
shadowrider
08-17-19, 19:22
That crimp looks good. Could even go a little deeper with the bullet and use a Redding profile crimp die to really roll it over the front shoulder hard. But what you have now should help to tell you if you are on the right path at least.
Also your bullet weights are very light for caliber. A different powder may be required. Red Dot as mentioned before is a good one to try as is VV N310 or Alliant e3.
That crimp looks good. Could even go a little deeper with the bullet and use a Redding profile crimp die to really roll it over the front shoulder hard. But what you have now should help to tell you if you are on the right path at least.
Also your bullet weights are very light for caliber. A different powder may be required...
Thanks... I'm going to shoot this tomorrow, and then we'll know.
Hodgdon specs 3.0gr of Trail Boss under a 90gr roundnose, so this should work.
If it still gives me trouble, then I'll try loading these 95gr roundnoses "upside down," with the nose in the case, to reduce case capacity. Then I'll have 95gr wadcutters...
Well, it's progress, but not perfect...
I shot 15rounds, and they all fired. (I would say "they all went "bang," but they really make a "pfft" sound, like a Hollywood silencer.)
My ES is less extreme, but still 179fps (346-525fps). My SDs for the two strings (one of ten, one of five) were in the 40s.
Raising the rear sight all the way actually made POI the same as POA, or even a little high (so I could come down a notch or two).
I shot ten into a silhouette at 6-7yds, and they made a group smaller than a credit card, which is good, given that I was shooting offhand and mostly worried about blasting my chrono.
58521
Now I have a new problem: Several cases are bulged around the base, so much so that they wouldn't easily chamber. (I didn't shoot them.) I'm guessing this is a sign of TOO MUCH crimp. Argh.
In the meantime, I'll load up some more with 4.0gr of Trail Boss, which should give me a 70% full case.
I won't get to shoot those until the week of the 26th...
Trail Boss should be position independent, but you may want to try the same load with a consistent powder position. Point the pistol up and then slowly come down on target after each shot.
Case bulges after crimping is normally an indication that you are about to collapse the case. Can be a die thing. Some guys crimp better than others.
I know you've already committed to trail boss, but 38 is the classic case for using bullseye and other fast powders.
I prefer unique, and shot a ton a very accurate light target loads in 38 as a kid. There is a reason the wadcutter loads are so popular. I think you would do better with a little bit heavier bullet.
With one of the classic loads there is no reason to be having to roll crimp that hard, and they will shorten your brass life. And recoil is minimal.
If you are having to do Magnum type crimping to deal with the internal ballistics I'd be looking at another bullet/powder combination. But would try some wad-cutters first.
I shoot a lot of light/blooper loads in other calibers and it's possible to find combinations that work very well. The universal 16g of 2400 service rifle loading is amazing and fun in old mausers.
It's counterintuitive but you can also find combinations that shoot the same point of impact as full power loads, at least at short distances. This has to do with the lighter loads leaving the barrel later.
Trail Boss should be position independent, but you may want to try the same load with a consistent powder position. Point the pistol up and then slowly come down on target after each shot.
Case bulges after crimping is normally an indication that you are about to collapse the case. Can be a die thing. Some guys crimp better than others.
I know you've already committed to trail boss, but 38 is the classic case for using bullseye and other fast powders...
Thanks for this... I wouldn't have committed to Trail Boss and 95gr bullets, except that Hodgdon said it would work!
I do like the idea of using Trail Boss, because bigger charges don't make much of a difference in pressure/velocity... a half-grain either way shouldn't make much difference, unlike a half-grain of Clays. This makes it all the more ironic that I'm seeing such big velocity variation.
I'm going to do the "70% test" later today... I'm guessing the answer is more than 3.0gr.
OK, so I measured ≈ how much Trail Boss fit below where I'm seating the 95gr bullet, and came up with 6.1gr or so...
So, figuring I wanted to start with ≥70% of a full case, I'm now loading a batch with 4.5gr of Trail Boss.
EDIT: I backed the crimp die off 1/6th of a turn, too. Backing off 2/6ths was still a tanglible crimp (I could feel it, working the press's handle), but left the top of the cases looking "open."
Since you posted in the 55 gr FMJ thread it reminded me to ask you how the .38 spl light bullet TB loads are going.
I loaded and fired 30rnds with 4.5gr of Trail Boss, and velocities were still all over the place (550-780fps). ESs and SDs were even worse than with 3.0gr and a heavier crimp.
So, I've backed the powder charge down to 4.0gr (I don't want/need more than 500-600fps) and turned the crimp die back down a 1/6th of a turn, and then loaded two batches:
1. 20rnds with the round-nose bullets facing out.
2. 20rnds with the round-noses facing, so they look like wadcutters.
The guys on CastBoolits have just about convinced me that these light bullets are NEVER going to work with the .38 Special's big case, so #2 is a last-ditch Hail Mary attempt...
If this doesn't work, then I'll buy some 105s and 125s to load in .38Spl, and I'll load the 95s for my SIG P230. (Yeah, I know .358" bullets aren't ideal for a .380ACP, but they'll work.)
EDIT: I won't have a chance to shoot these until next week...
The guys in the gun games (3gun, USPSA etc.) swear that heavy bullets at lower velocities give lower recoil impulses. I personally never noticed the difference, but it might eventually wind up that way for you. Maybe a 125 over 3.0-3.5 gr.
That's what the guys on CastBoolits say, too...
The physics numbers never make sense for heavier bullets, but a longer, more drawn-out recoil impulse WOULD "feel" like less than the sharp recoil impulse of a faster-accelerating lighter bullet.
One of the guys in my USPSA squad shoots 290gr SWCs (slowly) through his .45ACP, and he says it "just rolls, doesn't kick." On the other hand, his bullets were key-holing last weekend...
In any case, I might be able to get heavier bullets to be consistent around 500fps, which would be much better than having lighter bullets wildly varying from 500fps to almost 800fps.
Since alternatives were supplied on the Castboolits thread, apply those suggested. If deeply seated light bullets equivalent in seating depth to wadcutters do not give low spreads give up on Trail Boss. I pointed out the clues in Hodgdon’s data that indicated light bullets of similar weight were inconsistent. The suggested fix is the last thing for you to try.
If it doesn’t work, move on. Make sure the cases are suitable in wall thickness for deep seating.
Do not seat bullets backwards as that is undesirable. Apply my suggestion instead.
What are the clues in the Hodgdon data?
The clue is that a 60 percent increase in powder charge weight results in only a 300 psi pressure increase or only four percent. After this large increase in powder charge weight pressure remains very low with the light bullet used in the Hodgdon data. Combine this with a lightweight shallowly seated bullet and you get the wide swings in observed velocity the OP is experiencing.
If deep seating approximating wadcutter depth does not help, discontinuing its usage or using a heavier bullet is the smart thing to do. At such seating depth the light RN bullet may be barely peeking out of the case or be below the case mouth. Incrementally seating the bullet deeper is the only thing left to try with the lightweight bullet. Of course the powder charge should be reduced when doing so.
Since alternatives were supplied on the Castboolits thread, apply those suggested. If deeply seated light bullets equivalent in seating depth to wadcutters do not give low spreads give up on Trail Boss. I pointed out the clues in Hodgdon’s data that indicated light bullets of similar weight were inconsistent. The suggested fix is the last thing for you to try.
If it doesn’t work, move on. Make sure the cases are suitable in wall thickness for deep seating.
Do not seat bullets backwards as that is undesirable. Apply my suggestion instead.
Are you Remington35 from CastBoolits?
WTH happened to the thread over there? It's been deleted...
You're being cryptic again... The suggestion is to seat deeper, right?
And why is seating backwards so undesirable? "Boattail" bullets do just fine in rifle cartridges...
I don’t think I am being cryptic as you did get the suggestion. Seat to wadcutter depth. Much deeper. Read post 31.
If that doesn’t produce low extreme spreads forget TB with light bullets.
I do not know where thread went. I suppose something inopportune was said. Yes that is me. A rounded base isn’t so good for handgun ammo and accuracy. My idea is more logical.
My preference as a reloader, is for a pistol powder, of appropriate burn rate for the task at hand that will fill case with enough powder that a double charge will be obvious.
TB is a BP substitute- of sorts.
IMO it is a poor choice for the task of a light recoiling load to introduce wife/children to revolver shooting.
Look to a fast powder for that purpose; Titegroup, Bullseye, etc are great candidates for low velocity, light recoil loads without all the drama associated with TB.
Titegroup is a personal favorite that I use in 9mm wimp loads to introduce new shooters to handguns.
The load is accurate and exceptionally easy to shoot.
The downside is; a low volume charge is easy to double charge.
That is where he should go next if this deep seating idea does not work.
That has been suggested elsewhere multiple times. Ultimately it is his choice to find improvement, or not.
Unfortunately the powders like Titegroup and Bullseye can not only be double charged but even triple charged and leave plenty of room for a bullet. Trail Boss is actually quite fast as powders go but so far it is not working here.
With very light bullets even the above two powders will show position sensitivity in the 38 Special case, but in my experience nowhere near to this degree.
A rounded base isn’t so good for handgun ammo and accuracy.
I'm very curious to see how these work... They have a big step at the ogive, backwards they look a bit like the old Lapua subsonic rifle bullets:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010726237?pid=381996
My preference as a reloader, is for a pistol powder, of appropriate burn rate for the task at hand that will fill case with enough powder that a double charge will be obvious.
TB is a BP substitute- of sorts.
IMO it is a poor choice for the task of a light recoiling load to introduce wife/children to revolver shooting.
Look to a fast powder for that purpose...
Like Johnny said, TB is fast (certainly should be fast enough).
With even a minimal 70% charge of TB, a double charge is very obvious (big mess), which I like...
3.2 -- 3.3gr. Win 231 behind a swaged lead 148gr. hollow base (or solid) wadcutter.
we call them "bunny fart" loads.
many (including a past me) use bullseye (3ish grains - verify suggested starting load)
bob
3.2 -- 3.3gr. Win 231 behind a swaged lead 148gr. hollow base (or solid) wadcutter.
we call them "bunny fart" loads.
many (including a past me) use bullseye (3ish grains - verify suggested starting load)
bob
3.2g Win 231 or 2.7g Bullseye behind a Remington 148g HBWC was my 50 yard load for years. I shot quite a few 480 point 25 yard matches with this load and so did many others who shot higher X counts than I did on many occasions. Many who consistently shot well over 700 out of 720 in 50 yard matches used the same load.
Following up on this...
I tried the 95s again, and it was still shiddy. ESs in the 150-170 range, and SDs at 50-60+.
Loading the bullets backwards ("boat-tailed wadcutters") was just a bit slower (surprise) and just as inconsistent.
I shot one string making sure to "position" the powder at the rear of the cases, and they averaged 90fps faster, but were just as consistent.
So, you guys (and the CastBoolits guys) were right... This just isn't working. I'll use the 95s for .380ACP.
I just ordered some 125 flat points and some 148 wadcutters.
Hodgdon says Trail Boss will move 148gr wadcutters at 625-675fps (@ 15,000+ psi), which isn't much more energy than a starting load (740fps) with 95gr bullets, so (like everybody tried to tell me), that looks like the ticket.
Until the 148s arrive, I might play with "duplex" loads using those 75gr wadcutters.
... and one more thing.
If I had known when I started what I know now, I would've just loaded .38 Short Colt.
As is, I think I'll order some brass and dies and use up those 75 and 95gr bullets that way.
Trail Boss is good gun powder for some applications. I recently loaded some light recoil 30-06 cartridges with Trail Boss for shooting 50 meter offhand vintage rifle matches. I used inexpensive General Dynamics 147g FMJ projectiles, mixed HXP brass and Winchester Large Rifle primers. I used a charge weight that falls in the acceptable range for Trail Boss published on the Hodgdon website. The Springfield 1903 MKI shot 9/16" groups at 50 meters using iron sights, off the bench of course.
Trail Boss is good gun powder for some applications. I recently loaded some light recoil 30-06 cartridges...
This is why I bought >5lbs of it...
I was thinking of loading down .223 to .22lr levels to introduce my daughter to centerfire rifles, or loading subsonic .308. (Both bolt guns, of course.)
I won't go through it very fast loading 1.5gr in .38SC or 2.0gr in .38 Special!
Before you head too far down that path I would look at reduced power service rifle loadings. ("Universal Service Rifle load")
The standard is 16 grains of 2400 for 308 to 30/06 size cases.
Works extremely well. I use it extensively for 7 mm Mauser loadings. Shoots the same point of impact out to 50 yards. You also use it with same to slightly lighter-weight bullets. But nothing super lightweight in terms of bullets. For 7mm mauser I shoot 175 down to 150g. Below that accuracy suffered.
But you can't just download with any arbitrary powder, 2400 is not position dependent and is about the speed you want. Other powders are dangerous with mostly empty case loadings.
Trail boss is normally okay because it's so fluffy you can get exact loadings without worrying about position dependency. But for rifles you may not be able to get enough steam. I'd get a box of 148 grain wad-cutters and go to town with trail boss in your 38. You will be amazed.
I'd have to check but I believe Unique is another one people are using for smaller cases. I'm pretty sure there is a reduced power 223 loading the service rifle guys are using.
Trail boss is normally okay because it's so fluffy you can get exact loadings without worrying about position dependency. But for rifles you may not be able to get enough steam.
I'm not making this up... It comes as a downloadable PDF from IMR/Hodgdon's website.
Just google: "IMR® TRAIL BOSS® REDUCED LOADS FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL"
I'd get a box of 148 grain wad-cutters and go to town with trail boss in your 38...
Done. Now I just need a bit of time to load some and chrono them...
I also ordered 100 .38 Short Colt cases, which I'll try with 125gr bullets (and probably try the 95s again, too).
Well at least tells you it's safe. Might even work well.
Trail boss is widely loved with good reason. In pistols it makes sense. When I looked at it for rifle loading when 2400 was hard to get it did not make sense for me.
I just pointing out I would research your load first before buying more powder or bullets :-).
There are a lot of published loadings by the manufacturers that while safe they are far from optimal.
An example is 6.5 Grendel, the powder Accurate recommends/published does not work very well and yet probably the most widely used loading powder they do not recommend. It's almost a reference loading is that commonly used.
I've been using TB in 45 ACP and .44 Specials for years. Works real nice too. Dont load 45 anymore but still load .44 once in a while and 5.3-5.5 gr over a lead 200 gr bullet is very pleasant.
Before you head too far down that path I would look at reduced power service rifle loadings. ("Universal Service Rifle load")
The standard is 16 grains of 2400 for 308 to 30/06 size cases.
Works extremely well. I use it extensively for 7 mm Mauser loadings. Shoots the same point of impact out to 50 yards. You also use it with same to slightly lighter-weight bullets. But nothing super lightweight in terms of bullets. For 7mm mauser I shoot 175 down to 150g. Below that accuracy suffered.
But you can't just download with any arbitrary powder, 2400 is not position dependent and is about the speed you want. Other powders are dangerous with mostly empty case loadings.
Trail boss is normally okay because it's so fluffy you can get exact loadings without worrying about position dependency. But for rifles you may not be able to get enough steam. I'd get a box of 148 grain wad-cutters and go to town with trail boss in your 38. You will be amazed.
I'd have to check but I believe Unique is another one people are using for smaller cases. I'm pretty sure there is a reduced power 223 loading the service rifle guys are using.
I have been using Unique in charge weights as light as 10.0 grains with 350 grain lead bullets in 45-70 caliber cartridges. It works well and I haven't seen any overpressure issues in several thousand rounds. For ringing steel out to 200 meters, 13.0 grains of Unique will get the job done in my Trapdoors.
The Hodgdon website lists a load for Trail Boss and .223. I haven't tried it in .223, but for a light recoil round Trail Boss is my go to gun powder with FMJ bullets when loading 8mm Mauser and 30-06 cartridges for target shooting. In a bolt action rifle, I would expect Trail Boss to be suitable for other calibers.
Another update...
I loaded two batches of 20 rounds each:
.38 Special brass, 148gr wadcutters, ≈2.0gr of Trail Boss.
.38 Short Colt brass, 125gr flat-points, ≈1.4gr of Trail Boss.
The results were what I'd been hoping for all along. From my 3" Ruger LCRx's:
.38 Special was 514-597fps, avg. 570fps, with SDs of 22 and 25 (across 10-shot strings).
.38 SC was even better... 450-490fps, avg. 473fps, with SDs of 16 and 23.
NB: I had a squib load with .38 SC — bullet stuck in the barrel, right at the forcing cone, visible with the cylinder swung out.
Having loaded for 25+ years, it was my first! I think it was a cartridge with no powder — I had been rushing to adjust dies and get a batch ready the night before — but I'll keep an eye on the .38 SC loads to make sure that every bullet is exiting the barrel.
In terms of energy, vs. Speer's 135gr +P load (229+ ft-lbs) and PPU's 130gr FMJ (214 ft-lbs), the .38 Specials were barely half (107 ft-lbs) and the .38 SCs were not even a third (62 ft-lbs.)
Felt recoil with the .38Spl was like shooting a light-recoiling gun.
Felt recoil with the .38 SC was like shooting a pop gun... It's less energy than standard velocity .22lr!
I'm now overseas and away from my reloading bench and shooting range for several months, but once I'm back home I'm simply going to crank out more .38 SC...
Perhaps I'll try slightly less powder in the .38Spl (1.8gr?), and at some point I might play with those 95gr roundnoses in .38SC.
Those are some light loads, but if they work, that's all that counts. It looks like the heavier bullets got you where you wanted to be. I'm guessing they are giving you consistent ignition that the 95's just couldnt pull off.
~600fps with the 148g is close to the "standard" load I grew up with. I want to say min was about 650-700.
I personally consider those to be close to no recoil, in the 22lr range when shot in in a 4"revolver.
If you go lower you will want to look out for squibs.
Use a penlight to look down into the cases in the loading block after your powder is loaded. You can visually compare powder levels even if well below the case mouth.
I also have a small zip tie that I drop into the case mouth. I've made a mark on it with a sharpie level with the case mouth with a correct powder charge. Its light enough it sits on top of the powder. The idea is just to detect zero or double powder charges. I use this for bottleneck case loadings like the 16g of 2400 I mentioned.
Straight wall revolver cases I can usually check relative levels visually just scanning the block, using a penlight if needed.
Those are some light loads, but if they work, that's all that counts...
Yep...
~600fps with the 148g is close to the "standard" load I grew up with. I want to say min was about 650-700.
I personally consider those to be close to no recoil, in the 22lr range when shot in in a 4"revolver.
The 148s at 500-600fps were snappy... Not harsh, but not .22lr level, either.
I think part of the issue is I'm shooting 3" LCRx's, and empty they only weigh <16oz (!), so felt recoil is a lot more than it would be when shooting than steel 4" revolver.
If you go lower you will want to look out for squibs.
Use a penlight to look down into the cases in the loading block after your powder is loaded. You can visually compare powder levels even if well below the case mouth.
Loading block? What's that... I'm kidding of course, but I use a Dillon.
Knock wood, I had never had a squib load in 25 years of reloading, after tens of thousands of rounds. I understand the danger of getting a bullet stuck in the barrel with such light loads, but I also expect that danger is reduced with such a short barrel...
FWIW, I had the 95s leaving the barrel every time, at down to 250fps.
Roger on all. My experience was with a Model 13 spith
I'm not as trusting on the progressives if a double charge would not cause case overflow, I wish you luck!
I would have to think super light loadings can still work. 22 shorts do!
I'm not as trusting on the progressives if a double charge would not cause case overflow...
For most pistol cartridges, most light/moderate loads are less than half a caseful, because the bullet eats up so much of the case volume...
Getting you to try conditions where there was less space for the powder to wander around and increase shot start resistance was like pulling teeth.
I am thankful you finally decided to apply what was suggested in multiple forums over dozens of responses. Truly there is no substitute for actually applying good advice rather than wanting to argue about it.
I am thankful you finally decided to apply what was suggested in multiple forums over dozens of responses. Truly there is no substitute for actually applying good advice rather than wanting to argue about it.
Yes, you told me so.
You win the internet!
Rather like dealing with a mule at times. I don’t feel like I’ve won so much as survived. The pity was it took so much time and internet ink to get to this point.
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