View Full Version : Alternatives to the NRA?
National association for gun rights?
Second amendment foundation?
Gun owners of America?
What do you think?
I wish the GOA was a huge organization with almost 5 million members, but if that happened they'd probably become a lazy ass lobby group who funnels most of their income into advertising and membership drives while engaging in token efforts at best.
In the past members have been able to make direction changes and demand greater action a few times successfully. Not sure if it was the strength of the membership at the time or societal values or a combination of both.
What I do know is Congress and the rest of our enemies pretty much have no idea who the GOA, JPFO or the SAF even are. The only evil bugaboo they know is the NRA and even if they completely piss us off on a regular basis they are still better than not having an NRA. Being a Life Member I will absolutely never give them another dime until they start earning it and anytime I take their call I let them know that 100% of any donations will be going to the ILA so they can't mismanage it.
GOA is probably the most proactive organization I've ever seen, but I don't think they wield any true influence yet. When Zelman was alive, JPFO got some amazing information out to the shooting community but I think he was the driving force and once he was gone so was the effort.
IMO it's worth the $35 a year to build a big rock in the middle of the progressive road, and honestly the NRA is about as useful / useless as a big rock in the middle of the road and tell them if they want anything more they need to dance for their money. They put out a magazine with election alerts and stuff like that which most gun owners need because they haven't got a clue about anything. But we need to remember the NRA once considered Harry Reid an A+ rated politician.
GOA does send out accurate candidate ratings versus the NRA. They inform you exactly what the candidate did to get a D rating instead of the NRA giving the same person a high grade or endorsement with no background info.
GOA also sends out alerts on anti 2nd amendment legislation and they don't spin it any way other than what it is.
Sorry, no one other than the NRA has any power in Washington.
Sorry, no one other than the NRA has any power in Washington.
Might want to ponder why that appears to be the case.
http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/gca68-nra3.htm
"The National Rifle Association has been in support of workable, enforceable gun control legislation since its very inception in 1871." — NRA Executive Vice President Franklin L. Orth NRA's American Rifleman Magazine, March 1968, P. 22
The NRA routinely approves of anti-2nd Amendment candidates and promotes bad legislation so of course politicians will play them up.
Might want to ponder why that appears to be the case.
http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/gca68-nra3.htm
"The National Rifle Association has been in support of workable, enforceable gun control legislation since its very inception in 1871." — NRA Executive Vice President Franklin L. Orth NRA's American Rifleman Magazine, March 1968, P. 22
The NRA routinely approves of anti-2nd Amendment candidates and promotes bad legislation so of course politicians will play them up.
Nothing new and if you think that is their power source you're fooling yourself and are confused about how Washington works. Its about number of members, members that vote and can be proved to vote, money and good lobbyists.
everready73
08-19-19, 08:06
I didnt renew my NRA and went to GOA. They are not as big or powerful, but align with my beliefs. No compromise and i like that they keep you up to date with legislation emails etc.
They even recently sent a pre-drafted letter you could just add your name to and send to politicians about upcoming red flag litigation
BoringGuy45
08-19-19, 08:07
The NRA endorsed Mitt Romney in 2012 based on his vague statement that he didn't believe in going forward with any new gun laws. Granted, he was the lesser of two evils over Obama, but I don't think he was "lesser" enough to warrant an endorsement, considering Romney has been a long been proudly and loudly in favor of assault weapons bans. They could have easily just withheld endorsement from either candidate.
I didnt renew my NRA and went to GOA. They are not as big or powerful, but align with my beliefs. No compromise and i like that they keep you up to date with legislation emails etc.
They even recently sent a pre-drafted letter you could just add your name to and send to politicians about upcoming red flag litigation
You should join all of them!
The NRA endorsed Mitt Romney in 2012 based on his vague statement that he didn't believe in going forward with any new gun laws. Granted, he was the lesser of two evils over Obama, but I don't think he was "lesser" enough to warrant an endorsement, considering Romney has been a long been proudly and loudly in favor of assault weapons bans. They could have easily just withheld endorsement from either candidate.
He was the republican nominee. What's your recommendation they don't endorse anyone?
80% of life is showing up and if your a lobbyist that just showed up with money and the candidate wins, you now have influence.
Nothing new and if you think that is their power source you're fooling yourself and are confused about how Washington works. Its about number of members, members that vote and can be proved to vote, money and good lobbyists.
I didn't say it was anything new.
How is having members being told to vote for anti-2nd Amendment candidates (with proof those members will do it), members giving money to backers anti-2nd Amendment laws, and lobbying for all of that going to reach a pro 2nd Amendment outcome?
Firearms Policy Coalition
They are growing and vocal. Active in the courts.
https://www.firearmspolicy.org
I didn't say it was anything new.
How is having members being told to vote for anti-2nd Amendment candidates (with proof those members will do it), members giving money to backers anti-2nd Amendment laws, and lobbying for all of that going to reach a pro 2nd Amendment outcome?
Its not worth arguing about. I dont know how old you are or how long you have been in the gun world but in 2012 20 children between six and seven years old got killed in a mass shooting. 20 little kids. Let that sink in.
There was no gun legislation that came out of that event which is mind boggling if you think about it. Especially with a Democratic President and a Democratic Senate. That full stop was a product of the NRA. The NRA is the one to thank for that, specifically David Keene who was president at the time.
There are a bunch of people that want to pit different 2nd amendment groups against each other. If you want to be one of those people, that's fine. As I said above if you care about the 2nd amendment you should join all them and give them all money. But as a news flash, if we lose the NRA its over. Like game over. There are those that will sit here and say that's not the case and other groups will fill in. Those people are completely ignorant about how Washington works.
I support every pro second amendment group there is. Nationally and in my home state of CO.
Can’t have enough dogs in This fight.
The NRA is far from perfect, but very necessary.
There is no viable alternative to the NRA, currently.
As members, we need to push for some real changes to be made from the top down. The leadership, if you can call it that, is atrocious right now.
Its not worth arguing about. I dont know how old you are or how long you have been in the gun world but in 2012 20 children between six and seven years old got killed in a mass shooting. 20 little kids. Let that sink in.
There was no gun legislation that came out of that event which is mind boggling if you think about it. Especially with a Democratic President and a Democratic Senate. That full stop was a product of the NRA. The NRA is the one to thank for that, specifically David Keene who was president at the time.
There are a bunch of people that want to pit different 2nd amendment groups against each other. If you want to be one of those people, that's fine. As I said above if you care about the 2nd amendment you should join all them and give them all money. But as a news flash, if we lose the NRA its over. Like game over. There are those that will sit here and say that's not the case and other groups will fill in. Those people are completely ignorant about how Washington works.
I am old enough to remember NRA claiming Ronald Reagan was a staunch 2nd Amendment advocate after his role in California's Mulford Act through 2 presidential elections and then continuing to make the claim after his several other post 84 antigun moves.
Old enough to remember that they endorsed George Bush in 1988 after he voted for GCA 68 (which they supported and have made millions off of ever since) although(surprisingly) after his 1989 semi auto ban they didn't back him in 1992.
I remember them telling me Bob Dole was always a friend over gun owners during the 1990's while I was able to go back to American Rifleman issues from the early 1980's stating how bad Bob Dole was for pushing a 21 day waiting period.
In 2000 and 2004 the NRA told me how great Bush II was all while he campaigned for continuing the 1994 semiauto ban. He didn't get it, so he had to settle for piggy backing off his dad's 1989 ban, filing an amicus brief opposing Heller, and increasing ITAR regulations and cost.
2008 NRA told me to vote for John “one of the premier flag carriers for the enemies of the Second Amendment” McCain and all while his campaign finance reform had part of their website shut down close to election time since he wasn't too wild about the 1st Amendment either.
2012 the NRA told me to vote for MA semi auto ban Romney.
2016 they told me to vote for Donald Trump who stated in his book his support for semi auto bans as well as being friends with, and giving financial aid to, a large number of politicians NRA had told me were out to screw the 2nd Amendment.
And that is just recent POTUS, the same issues are there with congressional office holders on down to local officials.
No argument at all. As pointed out by Orth, the NRA has supported gun control since 1871. That isn't pitting one group against another, that is just the facts of the matter on what NRA advocates.
2012....are you sure that was NRA solely doing that? Nothing due to angry citizens? No other groups involved at all?
While there were other problem children, I also recall Joe Manchin of West Virginia being one of the senators pushing for gun control. I also recall him being an NRA A rated and endorsed candidate while he got a D or F rating from GOA.
So even if we assume they were solely to thank for killing any 2012 threat, they played a role in getting many those threats in place.
Voodoochild
08-19-19, 10:29
If you live in VA check out VCDL. If not in VA check out your grassroots organizations. On national level Second Amendment Foundation, Firearms Policy Coalition.
I am old enough to remember NRA claiming Ronald Reagan was a staunch 2nd Amendment advocate after his role in California's Mulford Act through 2 presidential elections and then continuing to make the claim after his several other post 84 antigun moves.
Old enough to remember that they endorsed George Bush in 1988 after he voted for GCA 68 (which they supported and have made millions off of ever since) although(surprisingly) after his 1989 semi auto ban they didn't back him in 1992.
I remember them telling me Bob Dole was always a friend over gun owners during the 1990's while I was able to go back to American Rifleman issues from the early 1980's stating how bad Bob Dole was for pushing a 21 day waiting period.
In 2000 and 2004 the NRA told me how great Bush II was all while he campaigned for continuing the 1994 semiauto ban. He didn't get it, so he had to settle for piggy backing off his dad's 1989 ban, filing an amicus brief opposing Heller, and increasing ITAR regulations and cost.
2008 NRA told me to vote for John “one of the premier flag carriers for the enemies of the Second Amendment” McCain and all while his campaign finance reform had part of their website shut down close to election time since he wasn't too wild about the 1st Amendment either.
2012 the NRA told me to vote for MA semi auto ban Romney.
2016 they told me to vote for Donald Trump who stated in his book his support for semi auto bans as well as being friends with, and giving financial aid to, a large number of politicians NRA had told me were out to screw the 2nd Amendment.
And that is just recent POTUS, the same issues are there with congressional office holders on down to local officials.
No argument at all. As pointed out by Orth, the NRA has supported gun control since 1871. That isn't pitting one group against another, that is just the facts of the matter on what NRA advocates.
2012....are you sure that was NRA solely doing that? Nothing due to angry citizens? No other groups involved at all?
While there were other problem children, I also recall Joe Manchin of West Virginia being one of the senators pushing for gun control. I also recall him being an NRA A rated and endorsed candidate while he got a D or F rating from GOA.
So even if we assume they were solely to thank for killing any 2012 threat, they played a role in getting many those threats in place.
So you see the NRA as a wholly anti-gun organization that does us no good whatsoever? We should not support them? You'd rather they didn't exist anymore?
So you see the NRA as a wholly anti-gun organization that does us no good whatsoever? We should not support them? You'd rather they didn't exist anymore?
Predominately anti 2nd amendment.
The NRA safety programs have done well. If their political segments had done half as much as their safety training people towards making their actual activities match their advertising I would be able to call up BCM (likely not Colt) and have a select fire M4 delivered to my house via USPS with no legal entanglements.
How is donating money and free advertising to anti 2nd amendment candidates (see previous) or buying LaPierre a 5 million dollar house restoring the 2nd Amendment?
I don't like anti 2nd Amendment activities or fraudulent advertising of any kind and yes I think we would be better off without either negative.
I will ask you the same question posed earlier:
"How is having members being told to vote for anti-2nd Amendment candidates (with proof those members will do it), members giving money to backers anti-2nd Amendment laws, and lobbying for all of that going to reach a pro 2nd Amendment outcome?"
And 1 other question puzzles me. Considering all the info that has came to light on NRA activities (ranging from support for anti gun candidates and laws to their executives handling of finances) why is the solution to keep giving them money and try to get others to do the same? Does anyone repeatedly get bad service from any other business, but you still support and try to get others to do so? Use a restaurant as an example. Does anyone really go in and pay for a meal every week or so (that is never what they advertise/what you order) thinking that will cause them to live up to their end of the deal?
ramairthree
08-19-19, 15:23
Nobody comes close to their lobbying power and nobody is going to come along and match it.
A handful decided it was their cookie jar, and couldn’t keep their hands out it.
There is no going back to the reputation or power they had at this point.
There is no alternative to the NRA because no other organization is in their league. They are the proverbial 800 pound gorilla.
I was reviewing several websites that describe various attributes of organizations. In nearly every category the NRA was 10's or 100's of times what other organizations are doing. For example, Brady is like 50k members. NRA is 5 million. Advocacy budgets were $100k for the anti's and millions for the NRA. The GOA and the rest are in the same little boat with thousands of members and $100k's of funds.
Now, once you have your NRA membership in place, then there are certainly other supplemental organizations. I am in Virginia and VCDL does things here that no one else can. However, I would never withdraw from the NRA and rely solely on VCDL. Likewise, GoA and some others do well funding litigation. The NRA does a lot better on the legislative side.
The fight is big enough for many pro-RKBA groups to attack on multiple fronts. It is not a one or nothing proposition.
The whole notion that "the NRA didn't send me my free hat so F-em, I am not even going to support the 2A" is beyond me.
Predominately anti 2nd amendment.
I understand your point of view better now. If someone, or some business entity, does not see everything 100% your way 100% of the time, then they are dead to you. Your enemy. Got it. We went through this with Trump too. Compromise, negotiation, and understanding the POV of those around you is not in your wheelhouse.
There is no human on this planet that is going to agree with you 100% of the time, and further, do everything you want, every time you want it. The NRA is the only thing standing between you and the dems having their way with you. Your body guard is NOT perfect. Your body guard has made many mistakes and will make many more. Your body guard has made decisions and compromises that you don't agree with. This does not make your bodyguard your enemy. This makes your body guard human. In this case a whole bunch of humans, who with all their shortcomings are still doing something to stop the tide of socialism sweeping this country. Could they do more? Hell yes. Could they do some things better? Absolutely. Are there corrupt and bad people in the organization? Yes there are. There are also corrupt cops out in the world, and there are crooked police chiefs helping the socialists. So should we say all law enforcement is bad and the whole lot of them should be disbanded and fired? I say no. I say we eliminate the bad cops and prosecute them for their crimes, and praise the good cops and all the good they do. I say we work to improve the system and make it better and more effective instead of complaining about the clear and obvious failures of the system. Because a few cops have done bad things, does not mean we shouldn't have law enforcement in our society and it doesn't mean all of them are dirty. The dirty ones are dirty. The rest of them are fantastic human beings and they are on our side.
The NRA stands in the way of the socialists who would like to disarm us. That is why the left cries and complains about the NRA on a daily basis. Which side are you on? Which side is your attitude and your posts in this thread helping. If the NRA falls because people feel the way you do, the dems will literally be crying tears of joy and dancing in the streets. If the NRA gets stronger and makes fewer mistakes going forward, what do you think the dems will do? Help your brother up man. Don't kick him in the balls because mistakes have been made. Kick your enemy in the balls.
I understand your point of view better now. If someone, or some business entity, does not see everything 100% your way 100% of the time, then they are dead to you. Your enemy. Got it. We went through this with Trump too. Compromise, negotiation, and understanding the POV of those around you is not in your wheelhouse.
There is no human on this planet that is going to agree with you 100% of the time, and further, do everything you want, every time you want it. The NRA is the only thing standing between you and the dems having their way with you. Your body guard is NOT perfect. Your body guard has made many mistakes and will make many more. Your body guard has made decisions and compromises that you don't agree with. This does not make your bodyguard your enemy. This makes your body guard human. In this case a whole bunch of humans, who with all their shortcomings are still doing something to stop the tide of socialism sweeping this country. Could they do more? Hell yes. Could they do some things better? Absolutely. Are there corrupt and bad people in the organization? Yes there are. There are also corrupt cops out in the world, and there are crooked police chiefs helping the socialists. So should we say all law enforcement is bad and the whole lot of them should be disbanded and fired? I say no. I say we eliminate the bad cops and prosecute them for their crimes, and praise the good cops and all the good they do. I say we work to improve the system and make it better and more effective instead of complaining about the clear and obvious failures of the system. Because a few cops have done bad things, does not mean we shouldn't have law enforcement in our society and it doesn't mean all of them are dirty. The dirty ones are dirty. The rest of them are fantastic human beings and they are on our side.
The NRA stands in the way of the socialists who would like to disarm us. That is why the left cries and complains about the NRA on a daily basis. Which side are you on? Which side is your attitude and your posts in this thread helping. If the NRA falls because people feel the way you do, the dems will literally be crying tears of joy and dancing in the streets. If the NRA gets stronger and makes fewer mistakes going forward, what do you think the dems will do? Help your brother up man. Don't kick him in the balls because mistakes have been made. Kick your enemy in the balls.
Well said!
I understand your point of view better now. If someone, or some business entity, does not see everything 100% your way 100% of the time, then they are dead to you. Your enemy. Got it. We went through this with Trump too. Compromise, negotiation, and understanding the POV of those around you is not in your wheelhouse.
There is no human on this planet that is going to agree with you 100% of the time, and further, do everything you want, every time you want it. The NRA is the only thing standing between you and the dems having their way with you. Your body guard is NOT perfect. Your body guard has made many mistakes and will make many more. Your body guard has made decisions and compromises that you don't agree with. This does not make your bodyguard your enemy. This makes your body guard human. In this case a whole bunch of humans, who with all their shortcomings are still doing something to stop the tide of socialism sweeping this country. Could they do more? Hell yes. Could they do some things better? Absolutely. Are there corrupt and bad people in the organization? Yes there are. There are also corrupt cops out in the world, and there are crooked police chiefs helping the socialists. So should we say all law enforcement is bad and the whole lot of them should be disbanded and fired? I say no. I say we eliminate the bad cops and prosecute them for their crimes, and praise the good cops and all the good they do. I say we work to improve the system and make it better and more effective instead of complaining about the clear and obvious failures of the system. Because a few cops have done bad things, does not mean we shouldn't have law enforcement in our society and it doesn't mean all of them are dirty. The dirty ones are dirty. The rest of them are fantastic human beings and they are on our side.
The NRA stands in the way of the socialists who would like to disarm us. That is why the left cries and complains about the NRA on a daily basis. Which side are you on? Which side is your attitude and your posts in this thread helping. If the NRA falls because people feel the way you do, the dems will literally be crying tears of joy and dancing in the streets. If the NRA gets stronger and makes fewer mistakes going forward, what do you think the dems will do? Help your brother up man. Don't kick him in the balls because mistakes have been made. Kick your enemy in the balls.
I don't think anything ever has been or ever will be perfect. I am also well acquainted with the "perfect is the enemy of good" line when people are acting as apologists for NRA actions that go far beyond imperfections.
So, once again:
"How is having members being told to vote for anti-2nd Amendment candidates (with proof those members will do it), members giving money to backers anti-2nd Amendment laws, and lobbying for all of that going to reach a pro 2nd Amendment outcome?"
And what other businesses that fail to deliver as advertised do you keep pouring money in to as well as encouraging other people to do the same?
Let's toss in another question. Democrats are 2nd Amendment opponents. Can you elaborate as to why Republicans that have brought about anti 2nd Amendment laws aren't bad?
On the too big too fail argument, police departments have been dissolved due to corruption:
https://www.coloradoan.com/story/news/local/2014/02/12/berthoud-police-dept-being-dissolved-larimer-sheriff-hired-to-patrol-town/5416073/
That is not the only instance of that I have read about where other city officials had enough and shut the operation down either. In other cases corrupt departments have been dissolved due to lawsuits hitting the town hard enough they couldn't absorb it any more. While not originating in departments, the corruption manifesting itself in speed traps drew the attention of the state of Ohio who then shut the operations down:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Rome,_Ohio
While I strongly doubt every single person in those operations (or the NRA) are corrupt, it is an unfortunate fact that 1 bad apple spoils the whole bunch...and that is the entire phrase, not the chopped off version used by apologists for what ever their cause is. The far too common scenario is to keep the rotted in place where they are free to have a deleterious effect on all including those who are good and have to deal with the stench and filth of the rotten.
Also note, that in each instance another agency took over policing those areas. If there is a need, someone can and will fill it. When you go with the too big to fail, you are allowing rot to keep going while preventing better from possibly flourishing. On a similar note, GM and the others should have been bought at auction around 2008 instead of the bailouts.
There is a need for what the NRA claims to be, but clearly doesn't follow through on and getting to the latter isn't going to happened by keeping the diseased parts laying around.
MountainRaven
08-19-19, 17:10
The NRA is the scapegoat of the gun-grabbers. The NRA is a pathetically small lobbying organization in the grand scheme of things. Propaganda lauding and scapegoating the NRA both make hay of the NRA's supposed grasp over Washington DC, but they're but tiny, tiny bugs in that great big swamp - and neither side has any reason to deflate the myth.
The NRA contributed $873,071 to political candidates in 2018.
Bloomberg contributed $95,907,318 in the same year.
Bloomberg ranks #1 in political contributions. The NRA ranks #543.
The #1 recipient of contributions from the NRA received $15,800.
Bloomberg's #1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 recipients each received more.
In lobbying, the AARP outspends the NRA by a ratio of 10:1.
And you want to know what else?
Gun rights organizations have, over twenty-eight years (1990-2018), spent more than gun control groups by a factor of 10:1 on campaign contributions. Gun rights organizations over the eight years from 2010 to 2018 have outspent gun control groups on outside spending by nearly 10:1. And they outspent gun control groups by about 7:1 in lobbying from 1998-2018.
The NRA likes to say that they punch above their weight when it comes to lobbying, but it seems to me that the Brady Bunch ought to get that trophy.
So what have we gotten from the NRA? A stalemate at a cost ratio of 10:1.
Maybe it's time to put that 10:1 money into an organization that will actually get something done.
I don't think anything ever has been or ever will be perfect. I am also well acquainted with the "perfect is the enemy of good" line when people are acting as apologists for NRA actions that go far beyond imperfections.
So, once again:
"How is having members being told to vote for anti-2nd Amendment candidates (with proof those members will do it), members giving money to backers anti-2nd Amendment laws, and lobbying for all of that going to reach a pro 2nd Amendment outcome?"
And what other businesses that fail to deliver as advertised do you keep pouring money in to as well as encouraging other people to do the same?
Let's toss in another question. Democrats are 2nd Amendment opponents. Can you elaborate as to why Republicans that have brought about anti 2nd Amendment laws aren't bad?
While I don't agree with your position or evaluation of the NRA, I understand your position. And while I personally believe $35 is money well spent for what the NRA is vs. what we wish they would be, I understand why you personally can't get onboard.
Nobody owes the NRA their support, nobody owes the Republican party their vote. And it isn't a matter of YOU needing to understand why they should be supported, it is a matter of THEM understanding why they need YOUR support. I get that and there have been times when I also wrestled with the same conflict.
The worst was when the Republicans ran John Effin McCain against Obama. In one of the most important elections in recent memory they gave us what might be the worst possible candidate ever. All through the Bush administration McCain proved over and over again that he was an unreliable and vindictive individual, but once he got the nomination people acted like we all OWED him our vote.
I couldn't believe it, I can remember back around 2005 asking people on TOS if it became Hillary vs. McCain who would you vote for and to a man almost everyone said that was a ridiculous scenario that would never happen. I was criticized for even suggesting it and many said I was taking pot shots at the Republican party by even suggesting the possibility.
Maybe it's time to put that 10:1 money into an organization that will actually get something done.
We just need to know who that would be. Even if all NRA members moved to the GOA, I'm not confident anything would change or improve and there are lots of reasons why it would get worse.
While I don't agree with your position or evaluation of the NRA, I understand your position. And while I personally believe $35 is money well spent for what the NRA is vs. what we wish they would be, I understand why you personally can't get onboard.
Nobody owes the NRA their support, nobody owes the Republican party their vote. And it isn't a matter of YOU needing to understand why they should be supported, it is a matter of THEM understanding why they need YOUR support. I get that and there have been times when I also wrestled with the same conflict.
The worst was when the Republicans ran John Effin McCain against Obama. In one of the most important elections in recent memory they gave us what might be the worst possible candidate ever. All through the Bush administration McCain proved over and over again that he was an unreliable and vindictive individual, but once he got the nomination people acted like we all OWED him our vote.
I couldn't believe it, I can remember back around 2005 asking people on TOS if it became Hillary vs. McCain who would you vote for and to a man almost everyone said that was a ridiculous scenario that would never happen. I was criticized for even suggesting it and many said I was taking pot shots at the Republican party by even suggesting the possibility.
That is a good summary of where I am and as someone else mentioned earlier, their endorsements are never with caveats about how bad the candidate is or making the best of a bad situation, but always some gross over exaggeration of what can be expected and totally opposite of every observed action of that candidate.
McCain is a great example of that. McCain vs. Obama on positions was an extremely fine hair to be splitting. At least with Obama there was extreme(and well justified) opposition to everything he did. As we have seen repeatedly with GOP politicians, their anti 2nd Amendment actions get little opposition. If supreme Court picks were the path to freedom then we should have had smooth saoling since the 1960's also.
morbidbattlecry
08-19-19, 19:32
I'm a member of the NRA and GOA. I hate the NRA in a lot of ways. But as someone said they are the 800lb gorilla in the room. People not joining they NRA and leaving are just want the anti's want.
Do any openly anti-gun groups have trouble with their leaders backing pro 2nd Amendment legislation? Or any of the politicians they stump for and donate money to introducing or co sponsoring legislation to repeal anti gun laws?
I am a life member of the NRA. I will ONLY give money now directly to the ILA branch. ALL of that money goes straight to the hill for the fight. NONE of that money goes to Wayne. The ILA is the part of the NRA that gets stuff done. The ILA is still effective and does good.
I just became a LIFE MEMBER OF GOA. The NRA can chest thump all that they want, but they dropped the ball with the 1994 Klinton AWB. They will drop the ball AGAIN when the AWB of 2021 makes it to the presidents desk, by ALLOWING it to GET to the POTUS' desk. IF another AWB is stopped, IMHO it will be the GOA that stops it...
BTW, the "new" definition of an assault weapon is ANY semi-auto that will ACCEPT a box magazine larger than 10 rounds... Welcome back to 1935. Kiss your Glock buh-bye.
You can make installment payments INTEREST FREE for as little as $20 a month to become a life member of the GOA... Just saying.
BoringGuy45
08-20-19, 07:23
BTW, the "new" definition of an assault weapon is ANY semi-auto that will ACCEPT a box magazine larger than 10 rounds... Welcome back to 1935. Kiss your Glock buh-bye.
If nothing else, that will get struck down immediately. Remember, after DC v. Heller, DC tried to restrict handguns to revolvers only, but the SC turned around and said nope, semiautomatic pistols fit the clause about "common use". And, if I remember correctly, Heller had tried to register a Glock, which set off that addendum to the initial ruling. So it's already been settled that semiauto pistols that can accept "large capacity" magazines are protected.
GOA for me.
Also ASA is back in VA today to try to help ward off the efforts of the Notorious "Coonman" Northam. Not sure if GOA showed up today or not but they were here last month when the GA was called back to special session.
I really like the way the GOA makes it easy to broadcast our views to the powers that be.
Here is one all can use BTW to the White House -- apparently anti-gunnes are slamming the system adn we need to do the same.
https://oneclickpolitics.global.ssl.fastly.net/messages/edit?promo_id=6880
I am a life member of the NRA. I will ONLY give money now directly to the ILA branch. ALL of that money goes straight to the hill for the fight. NONE of that money goes to Wayne. The ILA is the part of the NRA that gets stuff done. The ILA is still effective and does good.
I did not realize that. Good to know.
Not many people know that they can just donate to ILA side. Goes directly to them.
https://donate.nraila.org/Donate
If nothing else, that will get struck down immediately. Remember, after DC v. Heller, DC tried to restrict handguns to revolvers only, but the SC turned around and said nope, semiautomatic pistols fit the clause about "common use". And, if I remember correctly, Heller had tried to register a Glock, which set off that addendum to the initial ruling. So it's already been settled that semiauto pistols that can accept "large capacity" magazines are protected.
Good intel. I did not know about that part. I just know they are STILL after basically ALL semi-autos.
I did not realize that. Good to know.
Hopefully the SCOTUS will keep protecting us here. Still sleep with one eye open.
Not many people know that they can just donate to ILA side. Goes directly to them.
https://donate.nraila.org/Donate
That's what I do. 100% of the money goes to the fight against the grab. Not one penny goes to Wayne and his ship of fools. Regardless, the NRA let the AWB of 1994 happen. For every dollar that I give to the ILA, I match funds to GOA.
sundance435
08-20-19, 18:57
Not many people know that they can just donate to ILA side. Goes directly to them.
https://donate.nraila.org/Donate
Yep, probably has something to do with donor intent - it’s effectively a restricted gift. That’s what I do with most of my 2A contributions, give to specific branches/arms/programs, if possible.
BoringGuy45
08-20-19, 20:54
Good intel. I did not know about that part. I just know they are STILL after basically ALL semi-autos.
There's no doubt about that. They want every last gun, including your great, great grandfather's old 1890s double Damascus barrel shotgun hanging above the fireplace. Even if the next few rulings affirm that the 2nd Amendment protects semiauto rifles and standard capacity magazines, eventually, the left will get enough power that they'll just ignore the Constitution. They'll pass an AWB, we'll tell them that they aren't legally allowed to do that, and they'll just say, "Yeah, well, tape a copy of the 2nd Amendment to your chest and see if it stops incoming bullets from the troops coming to take your guns."
turnburglar
08-20-19, 21:42
I think the ILA, GOA and FPC all deserve money. I havent had the spare income in awhile to donate to 2A causes, but when I do; that will be my top 3. I think FPC is even under rated for what they do. I follow them on instagram and they are constantly sueing to protect the 2nd.
Trump had a sit down with NRA yesterday and he came out talking a whole lot more pro-2A than before.
No more red flag talk... Now it's "we have laws, but we have some gaps in the circle'"
I think all these calls and letters are making a difference. I'm sure he was told in no uncertain terms... hold the line on the 2A or kiss 2020 goodby.
Please go to the GOA site and click the links to contact the WH and your reps. It's all automatic, it's very quick and easy. We need to keep flooding the system with pro 2A.
Spending money is one thing but we have to make noise too.
You do NOT need to be a member to do this. Forward to friends and family.
https://gunowners.org/
Trump had a sit down with NRA yesterday and he came out talking a whole lot more pro-2A than before.
No more red flag talk... Now it's "we have laws, but we have some gaps in the circle'"
I think all these calls and letters are making a difference. I'm sure he was told in no uncertain terms... hold the line on the 2A or kiss 2020 goodby.
Please go to the GOA site and click the links to contact the WH and your reps. It's all automatic, it's very quick and easy. We need to keep flooding the system with pro 2A.
Spending money is one thing but we have to make noise too.
You do NOT need to be a member to do this. Forward to friends and family.
https://gunowners.org/
Helpful hint, the red text is the link to the letter if anyone else is like me and tends to scroll past highlighted stuff assuming click bait ads.
That happened because Wayne jumped on a plane and flew to New Jersey this weekend and spent two hours in a room with the President and convincing him that any new laws would suck and greatly piss off his base.
Trump had a sit down with NRA yesterday and he came out talking a whole lot more pro-2A than before.
No more red flag talk... Now it's "we have laws, but we have some gaps in the circle'"
I think all these calls and letters are making a difference. I'm sure he was told in no uncertain terms... hold the line on the 2A or kiss 2020 goodby.
Please go to the GOA site and click the links to contact the WH and your reps. It's all automatic, it's very quick and easy. We need to keep flooding the system with pro 2A.
Spending money is one thing but we have to make noise too.
You do NOT need to be a member to do this. Forward to friends and family.
https://gunowners.org/
Spot on. It’s working. For now.
WE need to keep the political pressure on. I actually picked up the phone and called both of my senators offices the other day. I’ve never done that before.
Even Trump is at least saying different things now. “We have enough laws on the books already, we just need to close the loopholes.”
I listened to him talking to the press this morning. He was black and white. Of course, he could flip back the other way if we let up on the calls and letters that the GOA puts out. Trump knows he will lose 2020 if he waffles ONE INCH on his promise to protect the 2nd.. He was pretty clear today.
I think even Wayne sees the writing on the wall now. If they support anything stupid whether active or by omission, it will be the political suicide of the organization.
100 gun “deaths” a day... THAT is the talking point of the left. Remember that. Of course, 80 of those +/- are accidents and suicide. If you look at homicides only, the number is more like 20 a day.
Spot on. It’s working. For now.
WE need to keep the political pressure on. I actually picked up the phone and called both of my senators offices the other day. I’ve never done that before.
Even Trump is at least saying different things now. “We have enough laws on the books already, we just need to close the loopholes.”
I listened to him talking to the press this morning. He was black and white. Of course, he could flip back the other way if we let up on the calls and letters that the GOA puts out. Trump knows he will lose 2020 if he waffles ONE INCH on his promise to protect the 2nd.. He was pretty clear today.
I think even Wayne sees the writing on the wall now. If they support anything stupid whether active or by omission, it will be the political suicide of the organization.
100 gun “deaths” a day... THAT is the talking point of the left. Remember that. Of course, 80 of those +/- are accidents and suicide. If you look at homicides only, the number is more like 20 a day.
I assume homicide can indicate justifiable acts also?
Either way, I would say murder/manslaughter are the bulk of the 20 a day and based on some other stats I would also assume those aren't the first forays in to not so petty crimes for something around 80% of the perpetrators.
BoringGuy45
08-21-19, 22:44
David Hogg and Joe Biden float confiscation of semiautomatic weapons (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/parkland-students-unveil-sweeping-gun-control-proposal-and-hope-for-a-youth-voting-surge-in-2020/2019/08/20/145f4574-c36f-11e9-9986-1fb3e4397be4_story.html?fbclid=IwAR2i4HnpsWFsnhQhnsjTrkcFp7R06sGP5-fZhllYlT05af76jJJOtmZJYwU)
Excuse me, "mandatory buy backs." I don't know if they're stupid, or if its their goal to start a civil war. I'm going for stupid, because Hogg is too young to think that deeply about this, and Biden is just ignorant. Either way, we need to keep up a full court press.
GOA just sent out a new link to take action if anyone was having issues with links. https://gunowners.org/ ... but it just goes to the home page, so...
At any rate... the GOA site links are typically inside a page that describes what is going on with any particular issue. It is almost always a RED RECTANGLE
Also the key words they use for letters to Senators and such are typically "Action Alert:"
Here is their page devoted to ACTION by category, Fed, State, etc. Might want to bookmark it. https://gunownersaction.org/
David Hogg and Joe Biden float confiscation of semiautomatic weapons (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/parkland-students-unveil-sweeping-gun-control-proposal-and-hope-for-a-youth-voting-surge-in-2020/2019/08/20/145f4574-c36f-11e9-9986-1fb3e4397be4_story.html?fbclid=IwAR2i4HnpsWFsnhQhnsjTrkcFp7R06sGP5-fZhllYlT05af76jJJOtmZJYwU)
Excuse me, "mandatory buy backs." I don't know if they're stupid, or if its their goal to start a civil war. I'm going for stupid, because Hogg is too young to think that deeply about this, and Biden is just ignorant. Either way, we need to keep up a full court press.
Heard Bepo endorsing this absurdity. How exactly is it a "buy back" if they never sold it to me?
Looks like this will be the primary platform of the DNC for 2020 just like Obamacare was in 2008. Remember when we thought that couldn't really happen and then it did. Remember Pelosi telling us it needed to be voted for before we could view the terms?
They will attempt exactly the same shit. If they win in 2020 they will attempt it from 2020 until 2024 until they are successful or voted back out of office.
Can you imagine having to explain our concern over Biden, O'Rookie, and Hogg to Patrick Henry?
I don't know if he would laugh, cry, or bitch slap us.
Maybe all three.
That happened because Wayne jumped on a plane and flew to New Jersey this weekend and spent two hours in a room with the President and convincing him that any new laws would suck and greatly piss off his base.
And we are lucky that happened.
Interesting to know everyone writing and calling just wasted their time so no need for that in the future.
Was the bump stock ban and no progress on making suppressor non-NFA items due to Wayne's actions or lack of?
Can you imagine having to explain our concern over Biden, O'Rookie, and Hogg to Patrick Henry?
I don't know if he would laugh, cry, or bitch slap us.
Maybe all three.
I am surprised Patrick Henry gets mentioned at all. I was familiar with the last sentence of The War Inevitable prior to elementary school from cartoons and so on. All through school the last sentence was prominent in any 1770's American history discussion. I was well out of college before I read the whole thing and got to see why the rest never gets mentioned.
Also have figured out why classes concerning the adoption of the Constitution focused on the high temperature at that time and allegedly the windows and doors shut instead of reviewing The Federalist/Anti-Federalisr Papers and debates going on at the time.
And we are lucky that happened.
Interesting to know everyone writing and calling just wasted their time so no need for that in the future.
Was the bump stock ban and no progress on making suppressor non-NFA items due to Wayne's actions or lack of?
Everyone writing and calling is always helpful. But do you think Trump is looking at Microsoft Outlook on a computer and saying wow look at all these emails?? No, not how that works. There are filters and most of the time that stuff never even makes it to the president's desk and if it does its in a very brief comment / conversation. Again, learn how washington works.
The fact that Wayne can do that and have the ability to get into the building and get two hours is the winning combination. No other leader of any Second Amendment group did that or even could.
Bump stocks were thrown under the bus as there are so few owners. Do I think its bullshit and handled poorly YES. Do I think it's fundamentally against current US code, YES. Do I think its unconstitutional on several levels, YES. But I get why they did it. Any normal american thought it was a workaround around the law. Again we can all agree that the law is BS. The whole thing was a diversionary tactic after Vegas.
Ding Didg Ding.... Another news flash. The Hearing Protection Act was never going to get done and the BS that Silencerco fed you is bullshit. I was at SHOT where they were telling people that it was an absolute slam dunk and I laughed and said I think you need to go back to civics class. Dude didnt even know what civics class was. Paul Ryan is not a black gun guy. He is a Remington 700 guy and is a total FUDD. He was never going to bring it to a vote. Even if it did pass the house there is no way it would get 60 votes in the Senate. Would trump sign it? Yes. Don Jr. said he would get it done on that end but they all have to deal with Congress and then Vegas happen and it is totally dead.
You just seem like a grumpy old man that doesn't understand how Washington works and because of that you bitch about the past and all the wrongs. Sure, I get it but those things are not changing any time soon. And by most political scientists estimates the Republican party has some really big problems on the horizon. So my recommendation would be to stop whining about the past and focus on the future. You sir are not helping at all.
The NRA are just middlemen. And why pay a middleman if they actually accomplish things. That puts them out of a job.
Everyone writing and calling is always helpful. But do you think Trump is looking at Microsoft Outlook on a computer and saying wow look at all these emails?? No, not how that works. There are filters and most of the time that stuff never even makes it to the president's desk and if it does its in a very brief comment / conversation. Again, learn how washington works.
The fact that Wayne can do that and have the ability to get into the building and get two hours is the winning combination. No other leader of any Second Amendment group did that or even could.
Bump stocks were thrown under the bus as there are so few owners. Do I think its bullshit and handled poorly YES. Do I think it's fundamentally against current US code, YES. Do I think its unconstitutional on several levels, YES. But I get why they did it. Any normal american thought it was a workaround around the law. Again we can all agree that the law is BS. The whole thing was a diversionary tactic after Vegas.
Ding Didg Ding.... Another news flash. The Hearing Protection Act was never going to get done and the BS that Silencerco fed you is bullshit. I was at SHOT where they were telling people that it was an absolute slam dunk and I laughed and said I think you need to go back to civics class. Dude didnt even know what civics class was. Paul Ryan is not a black gun guy. He is a Remington 700 guy and is a total FUDD. He was never going to bring it to a vote. Even if it did pass the house there is no way it would get 60 votes in the Senate. Would trump sign it? Yes. Don Jr. said he would get it done on that end but they all have to deal with Congress and then Vegas happen and it is totally dead.
You just seem like a grumpy old man that doesn't understand how Washington works and because of that you bitch about the past and all the wrongs. Sure, I get it but those things are not changing any time soon. And by most political scientists estimates the Republican party has some really big problems on the horizon. So my recommendation would be to stop whining about the past and focus on the future. You sir are not helping at all.
Well you didn't say a single word about anyone else. I tend to guess staff would summarize and tally any correspondence.
Not exactly old, but I have seen how doing the same thing over and over and claiming to expect a different outcome has brought us to where we are now.
National association for gun rights?
Second amendment foundation?
Gun owners of America?
What do you think?
I just renewed my NRA membership.
Why?
Well, I don't support all of what they are doing/have done. I do not agree with their direction, much of the time. So why would I renew?
Simple. They are the only group that the politicians fear. They are the only group we IMMEDIATELY see being attacked/fighting back against rhetoric after a tragedy is politicized. They are my best hope for giving pause to anti-gunners. Are their aims the truest and intentions the purest? I doubt that. But they're the only one's wielding a weapon (numbers and funding) that actually scares politicians.
I don't love all the NRA's practices and I have zero respect for Wayne L.--he's a corrupt douche living large on our 2A support $$$. They are messed up and need a house cleaning.
That said...when you're in a battle for your life, the enemy of your enemy is your friend. The NRA is a common ally in most things, they are incredibly influential in Washington D.C., they have helped with a *lot* of legislative and legal victories, and it would be a major mistake to ignore them entirely.
I support the NRA (life member, + occasional ongoing donations), the 2AF, and then a couple of think tanks that are working more broadly to try to rebuild the broken culture.
Seems like sometimes members of the gun-owning community are unable to see the larger picture, we have a tendency to splinter and fragment into many small groups, none of which have enough power to move the dial. This is why the grabbers and leftists usually win: they can submerge their own differences long enough to unite around a common cause.
Diamondback
08-23-19, 17:12
I don't love all the NRA's practices and I have zero respect for Wayne L.--he's a corrupt douche living large on our 2A support $$$. They are messed up and need a house cleaning.
That said...when you're in a battle for your life, the enemy of your enemy is your friend. The NRA is a common ally in most things, they are incredibly influential in Washington D.C., they have helped with a *lot* of legislative and legal victories, and it would be a major mistake to ignore them entirely.
I support the NRA (life member, + occasional ongoing donations), the 2AF, and then a couple of think tanks that are working more broadly to try to rebuild the broken culture.
Seems like sometimes members of the gun-owning community are unable to see the larger picture, we have a tendency to splinter and fragment into many small groups, none of which have enough power to move the dial. This is why the grabbers and leftists usually win: they can submerge their own differences long enough to unite around a common cause.
THIS. QFT.
I wish the GOA was a huge organization with almost 5 million members, but if that happened they'd probably become a lazy ass lobby group who funnels most of their income into advertising and membership drives while engaging in token efforts at best.
In the past members have been able to make direction changes and demand greater action a few times successfully. Not sure if it was the strength of the membership at the time or societal values or a combination of both.
I'm not so sure about GOA - I get stuff from them all the time asking me for donations.
In 2017 they reportedly took in $2,272,624.00. They reportedly had salaries, other compensation and employee benefit expenses of $793,968.00. That is 34.9369 percent of their nut.
There are board members making money from the corporation: MR. GERALD OGNIBENE IS VOTE RITE SYSTEMS, INC.'S 100% OWNER AND PRESIDENT, AND IS ALSO A GOA DIRECTOR. VOTE RITE SYSTEMS, INC. RECEIVED PAYMENT OF $146,421 FOR CAGING AND COMPUTER SERVICES FROM GOA.
Read the Form 990 data - https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/521256643
Taking in the totality of the circumstances, I guess after reading all of this I'll continue to belong to NRA and GOA as well as check out a couple of the others mentioned.
Edited Edit To Add: Just joined FPC for $20.19 - https://www.firearmspolicy.org/
Simple. They are the only group that the politicians fear. They are the only group we IMMEDIATELY see being attacked/fighting back against rhetoric after a tragedy is politicized. They are my best hope for giving pause to anti-gunners. Are their aims the truest and intentions the purest? I doubt that. But they're the only one's wielding a weapon (numbers and funding) that actually scares politicians.
Exactly this. For all of their shortcomings the NRA is the strongest advocate of the second amendment that we have on a national level.
If Vote Rite is running all the computer side of things, that's not a lot of money. and as far as I'm concerned they have the best run and most user friendly tech interface to the public that I have seen from any 2A oriented system. Now I don't know if that is because of VoteRite or not but whoever is doing it, is good at what they do.
As far as asking for money all the time. That's advertising 101. I far prefer the way they do it over the way the NRA does it. They give me a valuable service and ask that help out. they do so often.
The NRA gives me a valuable service and it feels like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. It's a "we will give you this if you do that".. "Ok, but I just did that".. then it's groundhog day.
GOA gives me links that take me 60 seconds or post cards or phone numbers. Then they ask for money. To me that's reasonable. The NRA asks for money and tells me they will perform a future service. We can't afford to not support them all but I like the way the GOA rolls. Especially their "No" attitude towards Dems.
I just renewed my NRA membership.
Why?
Well, I don't support all of what they are doing/have done. I do not agree with their direction, much of the time. So why would I renew?
Simple. They are the only group that the politicians fear. They are the only group we IMMEDIATELY see being attacked/fighting back against rhetoric after a tragedy is politicized. They are my best hope for giving pause to anti-gunners. Are their aims the truest and intentions the purest? I doubt that. But they're the only one's wielding a weapon (numbers and funding) that actually scares politicians.
I agree with you but sometimes they remind me of the British fighting in formation as this country was being founded. We need to organize and outfit auxiliary support to their front. I think if we were smart we would be looking for Adjuncts to the NRA and not Alternatives to the NRA. The Dems want us to turn on the NRA.
If the NRA were a strong front facing force. The GOA and ASA could be flanking support. The State orgs can fill in the gaps. We almost have that forming. I think the GOA could be valuable in helping to organize all this into one connected user friendly interface. They seem to have good communications and great user interface.
I'll tell you what. Either we as free people can elect a 2A Czar so to speak, that becomes the head of all these varied orgs we rely on. OR... one of the next POTUS will appoint a 2A Czar and I would expect the results to be very different. Something is going to happen. So do we really want to chose one branch of 2A support over the other, or do we want to combine forces?
What would the Left want. If I were the Left, I would want everyone to turn on the NRA and then I would try to crush any young upstart groups. So the opposite of that is simply to combine forces.
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