View Full Version : Handgun or pistol defense against bear attacks
This writer did a good job of compiling a very large number of known cases of successful bear defense with a pistol or handgun, and organizing by caliber.
Undoubtedly some of the accounts of defenses are not 100% reliable. But it's probably the best information we're going to get of an informal type, where it's not something like data compiled by the DNR's of the various states, etc. I was surprised to see how well our common big 3 service calibers did (not suggesting that this means these calibers are 'recommended' for bear defense tho).
Which caliber would you guess was used most commonly for successful bear defense?
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/
This writer did a good job of compiling a very large number of known cases of successful bear defense with a pistol or handgun, and organizing by caliber.
Undoubtedly some of the accounts of defenses are not 100% reliable. But it's probably the best information we're going to get of an informal type, where it's not something like data compiled by the DNR's of the various states, etc. I was surprised to see how well our common big 3 service calibers did (not suggesting that this means these calibers are 'recommended' for bear defense tho).
Which caliber would you guess was used most commonly for successful bear defense?
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/
Holy crap, this would get your attention-
“I GUARANTEE you the trigger pull & recoil will be the LAST thing on your mind in an actual Griz attack! I lived AK bush for 27 yers & was bear attacked 4 times. When the SHTF your adrenalyn levels spike & your attention is on the BEAR, not the gun! You'll never feel the recoil nor hear the report. TOTAL focus is ON the BEAR!! BTW, my backup handgun was a 44 mag redhawk w full length bbl (7 1/4 inch) shooting 320 grain WFN Hard Cast @ 1200 FPS & THAT WAS MARGINAL!! Only shot one small 6 ft black bear directly in the chest w the muzzle pushing it back when the gun went off. Flipped it out of my video stand w the sternam, heart & backbone blown out its back. Hit the ground dead w the entire muzzle blast INSIDE the bear. Her jaws were 2 inches from my nose when the gun went boom. NOT a fun experience. When bears attack its FAST!”
I actually had to shoot a bear in the 90s that came at me. I was in the hills and laughed it off when I was told to keep that old Blackhawk holstered on my hip.
So yeah..... You need a .44. Some smart ass will come up with some lies about downing a bear with a 9mm or a .40 and bill drilling them.
NO.
When some big ass, hairy, snarling beast stands up and sounds like a pissed off wookie and is coming at you... You want that .44.
Eurodriver
08-21-19, 18:08
Shooting a black bear that is threatening you is different than shooting a Grizzley that is actively trying to kill you.
I’m sure 9mm would work great for the former.
So yeah..... You need a .44. Some smart ass will come up with some lies about downing a bear with a 9mm or a .40 and bill drilling them.
Yep .44 mag was most commonly used in these compiled accounts. And also the most widely recommended handgun caliber I'm aware of. My grandfather would carry a .357, with heavy loads and hard-cast deep penetrating bullets, it's better than today's service calibers and would likely work, but even so less optimal than a .44.
However that doesn't mean the compiled accounts of people using service calibers are lies. One of the accounts occurred here in WA state just recently, which he mentions, a guy killed a black bear with a .45 (using your favorite brand pistol, BTW :-) ) when it followed him up a tree. Though that one was only around 150 lbs. Another one is published in American Hunter (https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/) describing how Alaska Guide Phil Shoemaker killed a grizzly with a 9mm. With pics and witnesses. The success of the 3 service calibers in the bear accounts in this article is surprisingly good and frankly better than I expected.
Important to distinguish I guess between what has worked versus what's recommended and increases your odds. If it were me, in big bear country, I'd carry a .44 too. In WA state black bear country as a trail round, I'm fine carrying my 1911 with a hard-cast load from Buffalo Bore. Would even consider a 9mm with the right load, but can't quite bring myself to do it despite all the FBI ballistics reports saying they aren't really all that different in terminal effects, other than size of hole.
WickedWillis
08-21-19, 18:37
Holy crap, this would get your attention-
“I GUARANTEE you the trigger pull & recoil will be the LAST thing on your mind in an actual Griz attack! I lived AK bush for 27 yers & was bear attacked 4 times. When the SHTF your adrenalyn levels spike & your attention is on the BEAR, not the gun! You'll never feel the recoil nor hear the report. TOTAL focus is ON the BEAR!! BTW, my backup handgun was a 44 mag redhawk w full length bbl (7 1/4 inch) shooting 320 grain WFN Hard Cast @ 1200 FPS & THAT WAS MARGINAL!! Only shot one small 6 ft black bear directly in the chest w the muzzle pushing it back when the gun went off. Flipped it out of my video stand w the sternam, heart & backbone blown out its back. Hit the ground dead w the entire muzzle blast INSIDE the bear. Her jaws were 2 inches from my nose when the gun went boom. NOT a fun experience. When bears attack its FAST!”
That seems like a pretty incredible story.
Shooting a black bear that is threatening you is different than shooting a Grizzley that is actively trying to kill you.
I’m sure 9mm would work great for the former.
You weren't there, Man
Shooting a black bear that is threatening you is different than shooting a Grizzley that is actively trying to kill you.
I’m sure 9mm would work great for the former.
The only grizzlies that have ever given me any shit were the size of medium sized black bears. I've smoked a black bear with a .45ACP with good results, but he wasn't trying to eat me..but I did eat him.
The only grizzlies that have ever given me any shit were the size of medium sized black bears. I've smoked a black bear with a .45ACP with good results, but he wasn't trying to eat me..but I did eat him.
Good info. What load in your .45, and what kind of damage?
Maximus,
Thank you for posting this. We must have the same reading habits, I read the article last night. Lol,
This is a great time to have this discussion, as I am sure many of us are getting ready for hunting.
I usually rely on a G20 with 200gr handloads, or 180gr golddot from BB. I picked up a 44 RedHawk on a great sale a couple of years ago, but still find myself relying on the 10mm. I just feel more confident with an autoloader. For those that carry a revolver, do you practice shooting revolvers year around or just around the season? How much would you estimate you shoot a revolver? I practice with a pistol regularly, and I will shoot my 10mm at least once a month starting in July.
Good info. What load in your .45, and what kind of damage?
225gr hardcast swc and 5.6grn of 231 powder. Standard Gov't model 1911. Was about 25 years ago.. so that's the best I can recall. 6' black bear, slight quartering towards, got a piece of heart and some lungs, bullet fully penetrated and ended up under the opposite side hide. He dropped right there. Honestly, with the little damage I saw, I'm surprised he didn't run.
I carry a Glock 10mm now.
Maximus,
Thank you for posting this. We must have the same reading habits, I read the article last night. Lol,
This is a great time to have this discussion, as I am sure many of us are getting ready for hunting.
I usually rely on a G20 with 200gr handloads, or 180gr golddot from BB. I picked up a 44 RedHawk on a great sale a couple of years ago, but still find myself relying on the 10mm. I just feel more confident with an autoloader. For those that carry a revolver, do you practice shooting revolvers year around or just around the season? How much would you estimate you shoot a revolver? I practice with a pistol regularly, and I will shoot my 10mm at least once a month starting in July.
Since I don't live in big bear country (well some would debate that, some black bears in WA can get large), I've been getting by with my .45 and hardcast loads as a trail gun--for cougar and black bear. Some of the available anecdotal evidence says I could use a 9 with the same type of bullet, but will probably keep using my .45 for now. Like you, I feel more confident with a semiauto.
ETA: If I did switch to a hi-cap 9, I'd go with a hardcast 147gr like this one: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=155
225gr hardcast swc and 5.6grn of 231 powder. Standard Gov't model 1911. Was about 25 years ago.. so that's the best I can recall. 6' black bear, slight quartering towards, got a piece of heart and some lungs, bullet fully penetrated and ended up under the opposite side hide. He dropped right there. Honestly, with the little damage I saw, I'm surprised he didn't run.
I carry a Glock 10mm now.
Sweet. The 10mm Glock is the one Glock that would tempt me--those flipping 3-4lb boat anchor Dan Wesson 1911 10mm's are pretty, but IMHO a bit heavy/spendy/impractical for a trail gun.
biggfoot44
08-22-19, 12:03
For my ( so far) very up close ( single digit feet ) encounter with a black bear , I had a 5in S&W .44mag on my hip ....... and a 7x57 in my hands .
He wasn't coming at me on purpose . I was waiting to ambush bambi, and his otherwise intended destination just happened to include him walking over top of me . He was nearing the mental line in the sand, where one more step I'd have to shoot, when he finally cought my scent .
He jumped straight up , spun 180 deg in mid air , and retraced his steps three time as quickly as he had been approaching .
For my ( so far) very up close ( single digit feet ) encounter with a black bear , I had a 5in S&W .44mag on my hip ....... and a 7x57 in my hands .
He wasn't coming at me on purpose . I was waiting to ambush bambi, and his otherwise intended destination just happened to include him walking over top of me . He was nearing the mental line in the sand, where one more step I'd have to shoot, when he finally cought my scent .
He jumped straight up , spun 180 deg in mid air , and retraced his steps three time as quickly as he had been approaching .
A good friend of mine had a similar encounter last year while we were hunting in the George Washington National Forest, except he was with out his pistol and he had to yell at the bear to get its attention and the bear simply snorted and walk off like it was more inconvenienced than anything. Since then I did a lot of reading and research on the subject and for my purposes I’ve settled on a Glock 29 10mm loaded with Underwood 220 gr hardcast with a 1200 FPS muzzle velocity. I originally intended to get a Glock 20 but I found several YouTube videos chronographing that ammo out of either gun and the velocity difference wasn’t that significant.
A couple of interesting things I noticed while researching this subject, first the 10mm auto is pretty popular among Alaskans for a bear defense pistol, and I read and watched a lot of YouTube videos of guys switching from the big magnum revolvers to the 10mm especially after they heard of or knew people that had successfully stopped bears with the 10mm. The second thing is stopping power. In every online handgun caliber debate I’ve ever read people always say stopping power is a myth (usually a 9mm guy to a .40 or .45 guy), and for the most part we all can agree on that. When you start talking about handguns for bear defense however the stopping power argument is alive and well. Guys out there swear up and down that you need the minimum of 44 magnum stopping power for a bear, and that carrying a semi-auto handgun is foolish because you’ll only have time for one shot. I don’t know about all that. I’ve never had a bear close enough to feel threatened (closer than 100 yds), and I’ve only seen bears in the wild twice anyway. So for me I feel comfortable with 10mm, and for a while 9mm was good enough because I figured I’d probably never see one close anyway.
Marine Corporal
08-22-19, 14:11
Whatever you can shoot proficiently is what you should carry. Within reason of course. No one here is advocating a .380 for bear defense. But often times, people carry .44 Magnum revolvers and cannot hit the broadside of a barn after the first shot is fired. Revolvers are difficult even for semi experienced shooters for follow up shots. Me, I would never carry one. If I lived in Brown bear country, it would be a 10mm loaded with hard casts. Where I live now, black bear are the only bear here and they are pretty small. My 9mm hard casts suffice just fine.
I spend a lot of time in the mountains here in Utah, and saw a mother bear and 2 cubs just yesterday evening. I was within 50 yards of them, but they didn't seem very interested in me and they just walked on by casually, no harm no foul. I did get a sweet video of it though.
Whenever i'm in the woods in Utah, I carry a Glock 20 with 16 rounds of 200gr Hardcast solids, and that would be plenty sufficient for the bears here, or most other more likely threats like moose, mountain lions, or a human. I've run into mountain lion only twice, but had one or two stalk me over the years (i saw their fresh tracks crossing back and forth over mine in the snow when i was walking back on the path I took in).
If i spent a lot of time in Grizz country, a larger caliber gun would be tempting, but i do like the 15+1 round capacity of the Glock 20
Marine Corporal
08-22-19, 15:27
I spend a lot of time in the mountains here in Utah, and saw a mother bear and 2 cubs just yesterday evening. I was within 50 yards of them, but they didn't seem very interested in me and they just walked on by casually, no harm no foul. I did get a sweet video of it though.
Whenever i'm in the woods in Utah, I carry a Glock 20 with 16 rounds of 200gr Hardcast solids, and that would be plenty sufficient for the bears here, or most other more likely threats like moose, mountain lions, or a human. I've run into mountain lion only twice, but had one or two stalk me over the years (i saw their fresh tracks crossing back and forth over mine in the snow when i was walking back on the path I took in).
If i spent a lot of time in Grizz country, a larger caliber gun would be tempting, but i do like the 15+1 round capacity of the Glock 20
I’m willing to bet that you can get 3 accurate rounds off with your 10mm after recoil recovery and firing again with your 5lbs trigger in the same amount of time it would take you to shoot 2 with a .44 Magnum and a 12lbs trigger.
There was a video on YouTube showing this but I cannot seem to find it. They used amateurs in one group and experienced shooters in another group and the results were pretty much the same. More hits were scored with the 10mm with a faster rate than with the .44 Magnum.
biggfoot44
08-22-19, 15:38
Wow , almost as if chipper78 was a mirror image .
Same NF .
But kind of reversed in that a few years ago aquired a G29 , but with life being busy , haven't gotten enough trigger time with it to feel up to the level of my Revolver skills .
Doesn't have to be a .44mag . .41mag, or Ruger level .45 Colt will also serve .
And yes , even though I see bear and/ or bear poop regularly , that more likely to face threat from stumbling upon a clandestine meth cooker or pot grower , I figure I can deal with felons more readily with a .44 or .45 , than an angry bear with a 9mm or .38 .
Based on GJM’s shared experience of using and carrying the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator bullets (solid Copper) in Alaska, I carry 200gr .45 ACP +P in an HK45C. This is mostly in Colorado, but I’ve never ran into a black bear in the back country. I would carry it in grizzly country as well with no worries. I shoot the gun well, and the Lehigh ammo shoots well and functions flawlessly in it.
Based on GJM’s shared experience of using and carrying the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator bullets (solid Copper) in Alaska, I carry 200gr .45 ACP +P in an HK45C. This is mostly in Colorado, but I’ve never ran into a black bear in the back country. I would carry it in grizzly country as well with no worries. I shoot the gun well, and the Lehigh ammo shoots well and functions flawlessly in it.
Thanks. I've never used anything by Lehigh, though I vaguely remember some past controversy about their ammunition, something with DocGKR about terminal effects but I don't remember the details, and not even if it was pistol or rifle ammunition.
Can you point to any specific info/discussion from GJM that describes more about this load and his experience with it relevant to woods carry?
Marine Corporal
08-22-19, 19:55
The tests that I’ve seen on Arfcom by 5pins shows that the 10mm Hard Cast penetrates substantially more than the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators or Hunters. Hard Cast is doing almost 60 inches in gel. The Xtreme Penetrators are doing about half that.
Can you point to any specific info/discussion from GJM that describes more about this load and his experience with it relevant to woods carry?
I sent you a PM.
The tests that I’ve seen on Arfcom by 5pins shows that the 10mm Hard Cast penetrates substantially more than the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators or Hunters. Hard Cast is doing almost 60 inches in gel. The Xtreme Penetrators are doing about half that.
I don’t know anything about info from Arfcom. The only things that I know are: someone who spends significant time in grizz country uses/recommends it for field pistol ammo, it has been shown to penetrate a bear skull, it functions flawlessly and shoots well in the gun I carry.
Marine Corporal
08-22-19, 21:42
I sent you a PM.
I don’t know anything about info from Arfcom. The only things that I know are: someone who spends significant time in grizz country uses/recommends it for field pistol ammo, it has been shown to penetrate a bear skull, it functions flawlessly and shoots well in the gun I carry.
Well if you look at gel tests from YouTube, the 10mm Xtreme Penetrators for some reason do not penetrate very much.
https://youtu.be/ZMiE-MXJLsI
LowSpeed_HighDrag
08-23-19, 00:06
I went down this road, albeit without ballistic testing or ever facing off against anything larger than a squirrel. I can't shoot DA revolvers well, full house .357 wasn't fun for me, .44 Mag hurt, and .454 Casull left my weak girly hands bruised. So, I bought a Glock 20, and now I can comfortably shoot very powerful and fast rounds accurately and quickly. Is it as strong as a .44 Mag? No. Will it buy me some time if that squirrel decides to get froggy? I hope so.
BuzzinSATX
08-23-19, 05:50
Can you point to any specific info/discussion from GJM that describes more about this load and his experience with it relevant to woods carry?
Can y’all please share this info. Very interested in this subject matter.
Also, sorry if this is something I should know, but who is GJM?
Thanks
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BuzzinSATX
08-23-19, 06:28
This writer did a good job of compiling a very large number of known cases of successful bear defense with a pistol or handgun, and organizing by caliber.
Undoubtedly some of the accounts of defenses are not 100% reliable. But it's probably the best information we're going to get of an informal type, where it's not something like data compiled by the DNR's of the various states, etc. I was surprised to see how well our common big 3 service calibers did (not suggesting that this means these calibers are 'recommended' for bear defense tho).
Which caliber would you guess was used most commonly for successful bear defense?
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/
Great article. This came out a while ago and it helps support an article Larry Mudgett wrote a few years back and have some of the same events:
http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/dangerous-predators-stopped-with-handguns/
Mudgett has written some other BLOG articles about similar stuff that are good IMO:
http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/
http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/handgun-ammunition-for-carrying-in-the-woods/
In addition to the writing of Larry Mudgett, I think the technical articles on the Buffalo Bore website are excellent. They are by Tim Sundles, the company owner. A lifelong hunter in the PAC NW, Sundles has been personally involved in many large and dangerous game hunts, and brings a lot of interesting perspectives to his articles. Of particular interest to me is his article on the Taylor Knock Out formula for comparing calibers and loads for dangerous game, originally developed by an African Poacher with thousands of kills to his credit (or shame?).
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=173
Just some stuff to chew on and digest and use as you will.
Personally, I’m a G21 guy with UA +P 255 hard cast when I’m deep in the boonies or in the Rocky Mountains...
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/45-acp-p-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose?variant=18785707622457
and a G23 with UA 200 hard cast when only worried about hogs or lions here in TX:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/40-s-w-200-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose?variant=18785705295929#shopify-product-reviews
My spouse will NOT shoot anything above 9MM, so her G19 mag is filled with UA +P 147 HC when anywhere hogs or other 4 legged critters may become an issue:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/9mm-luger-p-147-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose?variant=18785691598905
All should work fine on 2 legged threats...
YMMV
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BuzzinSATX
08-23-19, 06:44
Something else to consider...SD against dangerous critters is the same tactics whether the foe is 2 or 4 legged. Some common sense points most accounts seemed to reveal:
1. Only hits count (unless they choose to end the fight)
2. Keep shooting until the threat ends
3. “Kill shots” may not do so immediately.
4. CNS shots (brain, spine) with significant damage are the only guaranteed hits to stop the threat in its tracks Cardiovascular hits may take a dangerous minute or two.
5. Flat nose bullets generally penetrate in a straighter line than a round nose bullet
6. Deep penetration is critical for reaching vitals on a horizontal, head on target (okay, lets keep it clean here...I’m talking bullets...)
7. Any reasonable caliber SD handgun on your person and immediately accessible is 100% better than the 300 WinMag or 12 Gauge long gun leaning against a tree 5 yards away when the threat is on your ass...
Again, YMMV.
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halfmoonclip
08-31-19, 12:09
We have an odd situation down near our camp. We do have black bears, as well as coyotes, and copperheads. We also have a rail trail that is easy access, but a visible handgun makes the yuppies twitchy. What's more, the snakes are generally a bigger threat than the bears. I've come up with two solutions; either a 2" or 3" J-magnum, with the first two rounds snakeshot, and the remainder magnum solids, or a Sig P365 with the first two snake loads, the remainder 115 FMJs. (Yeah, the Sig will run blue-cap snakeshot, as will a G43) I've murdered a fair number of copperheads with the 2" Centennial. The dilemma is, am I better served with 8 lighter 115s or three 158s; velocities are about equal out of short barrels.
Great polar bear story, from the National Geographic (!). Two Norwegians were skiing to the North Pole, everything light weight, a pair of Smith Mountain Guns 'just in case'. They were stalked for two days by a polar bear; when push came to shove, one guy took pictures, the other killed the bear. A 'kill or be eaten' deal.
Moon
I tried searching for a bear thread that I remember being very recent but this is all I could find. Very interesting video
https://youtube.com/watch?v=B53Wd_IaybQ&feature=share
BuzzinSATX
06-26-23, 20:38
Dean Wiengarten updates his article on bears vs pistols in Ammoland periodically. Just updated it again. Pistols are 98% effective based on 170 cases and his criteria…
https://www.ammoland.com/2023/06/handgun-defenses-against-bears-170-documented-incidents-98-effective/
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Comprehensive
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28345-Grizzly-Bear-Defense
Ive always wondered if a Bear could survive 20 rounds of 9mm directly in the head. It seems in many cases you would be fine. A grizzly, I would want a 45-70 Lever gun.
Ive always wondered if a Bear could survive 20 rounds of 9mm directly in the head. It seems in many cases you would be fine. A grizzly, I would want a 45-70 Lever gun.I have seen a cow take a 38 special shot from a foot away directly in the forehead and just moo. The bullet ricocheted and went through the metal roof of the barn.
Similar barrel lengths to 9 mm, was 158 grain round nose. Probably not jacketed, But I can't recall. Admittedly a marginal defense round compared to modern bonded ammo.
But that's a ton of energy or force on a skull forehead and didn't penetrate. Really opened my eyes.
At the time about the only 9 mm you could get was the (still prevalent) 115 grain FMJ round nose which had less steam than a lot of the 38 special loadings. (This was very early '70s pre-supervel)
Modern bonded bullets in heavier loadings might have a better chance but I'm not convinced they wouldn't just ricochet as well.
Big critters have really thick skulls. I know there's probably weaker spots on both grizzlies and cows skull but usually the front isn't.
Just went on a backpacking trip with family in Upper P of Michigan. After much deliberation with wifey (she is better with a rifle), the 375 h+h with 300gr handloads went along for the trip. It carried really well with Boonie Packer sling under my 70 pound pack. Didn't see a single bear...
Edited to add:
Just realized that this is a pistol/handgun thread. In addition to the 375hh, the SW model 58 rode along in my Hills people gear bag. 250gr Hardcast bullets at 1256 fps. My handload. I didn't intend to sidetrack the discussion.
I guess I’m not surprised the amount of attacks in Montana in recent years. I need to look at upping my sidearm game. I usually take a 1911 with fmj, but I’m going to at least get some buffalo bore or maybe a 10mm or 460sw.
The one story out of Montana where they said .gov guys wished he’d used bear spray instead, **** them and **** that bear. If we were allowed to hunt those Bears they’d be a little less aggressive I bet.
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Looks like I never posted my bear / mountain lion kit.
Those are 240gr Hard Cast lead sitting on top of a generous helping of Alliant 2400.
https://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p3399296608-5.jpg
Looks like I never posted my bear / mountain lion kit.
Those are 240gr Hard Cast lead sitting on top of a generous helping of Alliant 2400.
https://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p3399296608-5.jpg
44mag?
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Very few people are actually competent with a magnum revolver. I think 10mm is the least bad option if you want an excuse to buy a bigger handgun.
Realistically we should just buy hardcast for the service caliber pistol we have and practice more.
I remember reading about a hunting guide who stopped a bear attack with a S&W 3913 (9mm) with hard cast bullets, I think Buffalo Bore. This was recently, probably only a year or two ago.
I actually had to shoot a bear in the 90s that came at me. I was in the hills and laughed it off when I was told to keep that old Blackhawk holstered on my hip.
So yeah..... You need a .44. Some smart ass will come up with some lies about downing a bear with a 9mm or a .40 and bill drilling them.
NO.
When some big ass, hairy, snarling beast stands up and sounds like a pissed off wookie and is coming at you... You want that .44.
There are numerous documented cases of 9mm being used in Bear (brown and black) attacks…
There are numerous documented cases of 9mm being used in Bear (brown and black) attacks…
And what happened ? I need to look into some of these bullets. Can someone point me to best bullets for my 9mm HK P30 for hairy critters. In reality, AZ doesn't have big bears but our wolf problem is growing and will suck in future years.
PB
And what happened ?
PB
They were eaten.
Lots of people survive being shot by 9mm. Taking it for bear defense is darn near stupid.
Haven't thought much about wolf defense. Not sure you'd need the penetration of Hard Cast lead on a wolf. I bet your buddy Markm could cook you up some spicy 9mm loads.
They were eaten.
Lots of people survive being shot by 9mm. Taking it for bear defense is darn near stupid.
Haven't thought much about wolf defense. Not sure you'd need the penetration of Hard Cast lead on a wolf. I bet your buddy Markm could cook you up some spicy 9mm loads.
Google is your friend, gents... try it.
https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/
For the less-technologically inclined folks.... I'll summarize the (4) known (to this articles author) uses of 9mm on Bears:
1. Alaska, Russian River, Grizzly Charged Fishermen, 9mm 17 August, 2002
But then the bear turned, looked up at Brenner and lunged, said Lewis, who interviewed the three men Saturday.
Brenner fired twice at the center of the hulking shape closing to four or five feet away. The sow, estimated at 400 to 450 pounds, went down. Brenner then put three more bullets into her head.
He used a 9 mm semiautomatic pistol. Lewis said such a low-caliber gun ordinarily doesn’t pack enough punch to kill a bear. But Brenner loaded the pistol with full-metal-jacket bullets that penetrated to the bear’s vital organs, he said.
2. Bear Charged John Tiebohl, 9 mm, 31 August, 2004 Bachelor Gulch, Colorado
BACHELOR GULCH – The Aug. 31 shooting of a bear in Bachelor Gulch still echoes among residents in the upscale enclave.The Colorado Division of Wildlife continues to investigate the incident, in which homeowner John Tietbohl shot and wounded a bear outside his Daybreak Ridge home. Tietbohl told officers the bear had been trying to get into his home, then charged him as he was getting into his car that evening. Tietbohl, who had been carrying a 9-millimeter pistol as a sidearm to protect himself from the bear, shot and hit the animal, which left a trail of blood as it ran off.Earlier in the day, Bachelor Gulch security officers had repeatedly sprayed pepper spray at the bear near Tietbohl’s house, but the animal stayed around. The bear also reportedly slipped into Tietbohl’s garage in the days before it was shot.
3. AK: Guide Kills Attacking Grizzly with 9mm, July, 2016
In the last week in July, 2016, Phil Shoemaker had use a 9mm pistol to kill a grizzly that was threatening his clients and himself. It worked. (this is the well documented case in which the guide used 147 grain +P hardcast Buffalo Bore)
4. Bowhunters, Spray Failed, 9mm, Grizzly October, 2017, account from two sources, Todd Orr, and Eye-witness, Beaver Creek, MT.
I interviewed both sources. The attack was reported to Fish and Game, but was not published.
It was at the end of the day, and was getting dark. Two bow hunters, were returning from their bow hunt. They both had bear spray and pistols. They had agreed that if forced into defending themselves, one would use spray, the other would back up the spray with his pistol.
The male grizzly bluff charged several times, blocking their return to camp.
Warning shots were fired in the air with a 9 mm pistol. The bear ran off, then came back. Bear spray was utilized but only extended 10 feet into a light head wind and did not reach the bear. The bear would not disengage. It kept coming back and getting closer. The aggressive bear was finally shot with the 9 mm pistol at close range. It ran off. The report was made to Fish and Wildlife, and the bear was found dead the next day. Eye-witness believes it was one shot to the chest of the bear.
HKGuns... it appears as if your assertion that these folks who knowingly carried a 9mm (aptly loaded with the proper penetrating ammunition) were not, in fact, eaten.
Google is your friend, gents... try it.
https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/
For the less-technologically inclined folks.... I'll summarize the (4) known (to this articles author) uses of 9mm on Bears:
1. Alaska, Russian River, Grizzly Charged Fishermen, 9mm 17 August, 2002
But then the bear turned, looked up at Brenner and lunged, said Lewis, who interviewed the three men Saturday.
Brenner fired twice at the center of the hulking shape closing to four or five feet away. The sow, estimated at 400 to 450 pounds, went down. Brenner then put three more bullets into her head.
He used a 9 mm semiautomatic pistol. Lewis said such a low-caliber gun ordinarily doesn’t pack enough punch to kill a bear. But Brenner loaded the pistol with full-metal-jacket bullets that penetrated to the bear’s vital organs, he said.
2. Bear Charged John Tiebohl, 9 mm, 31 August, 2004 Bachelor Gulch, Colorado
BACHELOR GULCH – The Aug. 31 shooting of a bear in Bachelor Gulch still echoes among residents in the upscale enclave.The Colorado Division of Wildlife continues to investigate the incident, in which homeowner John Tietbohl shot and wounded a bear outside his Daybreak Ridge home. Tietbohl told officers the bear had been trying to get into his home, then charged him as he was getting into his car that evening. Tietbohl, who had been carrying a 9-millimeter pistol as a sidearm to protect himself from the bear, shot and hit the animal, which left a trail of blood as it ran off.Earlier in the day, Bachelor Gulch security officers had repeatedly sprayed pepper spray at the bear near Tietbohl’s house, but the animal stayed around. The bear also reportedly slipped into Tietbohl’s garage in the days before it was shot.
3. AK: Guide Kills Attacking Grizzly with 9mm, July, 2016
In the last week in July, 2016, Phil Shoemaker had use a 9mm pistol to kill a grizzly that was threatening his clients and himself. It worked. (this is the well documented case in which the guide used 147 grain +P hardcast Buffalo Bore)
4. Bowhunters, Spray Failed, 9mm, Grizzly October, 2017, account from two sources, Todd Orr, and Eye-witness, Beaver Creek, MT.
I interviewed both sources. The attack was reported to Fish and Game, but was not published.
It was at the end of the day, and was getting dark. Two bow hunters, were returning from their bow hunt. They both had bear spray and pistols. They had agreed that if forced into defending themselves, one would use spray, the other would back up the spray with his pistol.
The male grizzly bluff charged several times, blocking their return to camp.
Warning shots were fired in the air with a 9 mm pistol. The bear ran off, then came back. Bear spray was utilized but only extended 10 feet into a light head wind and did not reach the bear. The bear would not disengage. It kept coming back and getting closer. The aggressive bear was finally shot with the 9 mm pistol at close range. It ran off. The report was made to Fish and Wildlife, and the bear was found dead the next day. Eye-witness believes it was one shot to the chest of the bear.
HKGuns... it appears as if your assertion that these folks who knowingly carried a 9mm (aptly loaded with the proper penetrating ammunition) were not, in fact, eaten.
As another example, anyone remember this youtube video of a snowmobiler shooting a charging moose with a 9mm? He gave the moose a warning shot and then dumped a few into it, promptly taking it down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h1XlsskYmY
I have some 147gr hardcast solids for my 9mm, but rarely carry it, as i always have my 10mm with 200gr hardcast solids when in the woods.
No doubt…The penetration on 9mm hardcast is pretty amazing.
No doubt…The penetration on 9mm hardcast is pretty amazing.
It doesn't look amazing here. Clear Gel isn't ideal but I don't think it invalidates the relative comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXF5HOQz5WY&t=425s
It doesn't look amazing here. Clear Gel isn't ideal but I don't think it invalidates the relative comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXF5HOQz5WY&t=425s
You’re right… clear gel testing might not spell the entire performance package of 9mm hardcast ammo. All we can really lean heavily on is real world engagements on actual living tissue (see above posted article highlighting 4 known/documented uses)
Well, you win the internet for today. Congratulations!
I'll continue carrying 44 Mag when in bear country. You are free to carry 9mm, I don't care enough to argue about it on the internet.
Its not like it hasn't already been done thousands of times before in gun forums all over the internet.
Well, you win the internet for today. Congratulations!
I'll continue carrying 44 Mag when in bear country. You are free to carry 9mm, I don't care enough to argue about it on the internet.
Its not like it hasn't already been done thousands of times before in gun forums all over the internet.
Despite a few real world success stories with 9mm, I also choose my 10mm over 9mm every time, and prefer my shotgun with Brenneke slugs if the situation permits. 9mm "can" get the job done, but hardly the best tool for the job when dealing with big animals.
Well, you win the internet for today. Congratulations!
I'll continue carrying 44 Mag when in bear country. You are free to carry 9mm, I don't care enough to argue about it on the internet.
Its not like it hasn't already been done thousands of times before in gun forums all over the internet.
Dude, I appreciate the “win”….9 wouldn’t be my first choice either … I’d rather carry a M203 with HEDP if I knew I was intentionally going into hostile Grizz country, and looking for a fight… but, if 9 is all you have… there are proven rounds that can/have saved people from becoming a meal… something to be said about carrying weapon that you can make fast and accurate (potentially multiple) hits on a pissed off moving target.
9mm "can" get the job done, but hardly the best tool for the job when dealing with big animals.
I would replace “9mm” with “even the biggest magnum handgun”, and then second the long gun if at all possible recommendation.
Despite a few real world success stories with 9mm, I also choose my 10mm over 9mm every time, and prefer my shotgun with Brenneke slugs if the situation permits. 9mm "can" get the job done, but hardly the best tool for the job when dealing with big animals.
Exactly. Why risk it with 9mm? A few successful stories but it’s not the best tool for big animals.
Carry something bigger.
indianalex01
12-12-23, 22:55
Exactly. Why risk it with 9mm? A few successful stories but it’s not the best tool for big animals.
Carry something bigger.
I’d have no problem carrying a 9mm with heavy bullets. Some of you act like a bear is a T Rex. I’m not saying a 9mm is best because it isn’t. But give me 17 shots of 9mm over a heavy 6 shooter all day
I’d have no problem carrying a 9mm with heavy bullets. Some of you act like a bear is a T Rex. I’m not saying a 9mm is best because it isn’t. But give me 17 shots of 9mm over a heavy 6 shooter all day
15 rounds of 10mm (Glock 20) would be better.
indianalex01
12-12-23, 23:39
15 rounds of 10mm (Glock 20) would be better.
Well of course. I would take either over so big heavy 6 shooter
I second 10mm for this potential use case, because I carry and practice with mag fed handguns a lot more than wheel guns.
BuzzinSATX
12-13-23, 05:42
And what happened ? I need to look into some of these bullets. Can someone point me to best bullets for my 9mm HK P30 for hairy critters. In reality, AZ doesn't have big bears but our wolf problem is growing and will suck in future years.
PB
You are basically looking for flat nose hard cast ammo. Typically Underwood Ammo or Buffalo Bore are the most common names you hear. They both have hard cast in most cartridges. I like Underwood personally. Good ammo:
https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-147gr.-flat-nose-black-cherry-coated-hard-cast-hunting-ammo/
Buffalo Bore is more spendy but every bit as good, and owned Tim Sundles is a very experienced outdoorsman and hunter:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=389
You can roll your own if you like. These are the actual bullets Buffalo Bore uses:
https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/9mm-tc-148-gr-the-outdoorsman-per-400.html
Double tap is another brand.
Alaska master bear guide Phil Shoemaker used a single stack 9MM with Buffalo Bore ammo to defend fishing clients and kill a large brown bear inside 10 yards. His story is amazing but he was very cool under the pressure and made the hits count.
https://buffalobore.net/images/PhilShoemaker.jpg
Still, the shots traveled almost through the 700 lbs bear broadside. Story is out there if you Google it. I’ve read in a lesser account that he regretted carrying the 9MM but it worked…last round finished the job. Maybe some Devine intervention helped…
A 200 lbs wolf would be less formidable…
ETA: I think folks get too mixed up about “hunting a bear with a handgun” and using a handgun to defend themselves against a bear.
Hunting ethically would be choosing a cartridge that will dispatch the animal cleanly and humanely, preferably with a single round, and a calm well placed shot. Definitely would not choose a 9 or even 10MM for that.
But defending? Give me a pistol I can shoot well and repeatedly under pressure and lots of solid, flat nose, deep penetrating bullets. I’m hoping to be hitting and breaking skull, spinal, and structural bones, not a double lung/heart shot.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Flat nose .40 & .45 acp will cut a wider hole than 9x19.
It doesn't look amazing here. Clear Gel isn't ideal but I don't think it invalidates the relative comparison.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXF5HOQz5WY&t=425s
You’re right… clear gel testing might not spell the entire performance package of 9mm hardcast ammo. All we can really lean heavily on is real world engagements on actual living tissue (see above posted article highlighting 4 known/documented uses)
Just FYI. Underwood 9mm with hardcast bullets penetrated 40+" in this guy's test. And the Buffalo Bore went through all three 16" gel blocks exceeding 48" of penetration.
https://youtu.be/14idIdh1VhE?si=lxzlMGW0zf2n1XHy&t=169
anachronism
12-14-23, 17:27
Of course there's no way of identifying how many times 9mm didn't stop the bear.
Cross out "Bells", and replace with "9mm brass".
71152
Just FYI. Underwood 9mm with hardcast bullets penetrated 40+" in this guy's test. And the Buffalo Bore went through all three 16" gel blocks exceeding 48" of penetration.
https://youtu.be/14idIdh1VhE?si=lxzlMGW0zf2n1XHy&t=169
Yea, Clear Gel can really allow a bullet to penetrate alot more than calibrated ballistics ordinance gelatin.
Yea, Clear Gel can really allow a bullet to penetrate alot more than calibrated ballistics ordinance gelatin.Oh, I didn't know that. I thought I remembered hearing the opposite is true, but I may be getting it backwards.
ETA: just read that clear gel doesn't expand hollow points as well as 10% calibrated gelatin, and this is the reason it allows, on average, 56% deeper penetration with hollow point bullets. Would be interesting to see a back to back test using FMJ and hard cast bullets in both gels to see what the differences are.
Oh, I didn't know that. I thought I remembered hearing the opposite is true, but I may be getting it backwards.
ETA: just read that clear gel doesn't expand hollow points as well as 10% calibrated gelatin, and this is the reason it allows, on average, 56% deeper penetration with hollow point bullets. Would be interesting to see a back to back test using FMJ and hard cast bullets in both gels to see what the differences are.
Yea that could be interesting.
I think it doesn't expand JHP's as much because it isn't as dense.
I’ve experienced nearly 4’ of penetration on a big (430 lb) Boar Hog with a “Cast Performance” 300 gr, WFNGC .45 out of a custom 5” Bisley. It was a “head on” shot at 1200+ FPS.
Good, “heavy for caliber”, Cast bullets at 1100-1200 FPS have always exhibited exceptional penetration in game IME.
I do not have any experience shooting bears, but soon will if they keep coming in my yard, Game Wardens, be dammed !! I do have considerable experience using handguns on deer, 44 Mag & heavy loaded 45 ACP. Handguns do not deliver the shock delivered by a more powerful rifle. Unless you shoot into the brain or spinal cord they just have to bleed out. They may do that standing, or laying down, of if already excited, while running. Bears, I expect may bleed out while charging !!
I’ve experienced nearly 4’ of penetration on a big (430 lb) Boar Hog with a “Cast Performance” 300 gr, WFNGC .45 out of a custom 5” Bisley. It was a “head on” shot at 1200+ FPS.
Good, “heavy for caliber”, Cast bullets at 1100-1200 FPS have always exhibited exceptional penetration in game IME.
Great point!! Linebaugh was a proponent of 1200fps for heavy hard cast bullets. 1200fps was good enough:
1. Recoil management and recovery to get a follow up shot off.
2. Lower pressure and friendly on handgun parts.
3. A heavy enough bullet with large meplat will have tremendous penetration at 1200fps.
4. 1200 fps is a flat enough trajectory for 100 yard shots.
When I started working up loads for my 41magnum, the buffalo bore results were impressive. But! I avoided the trap and followed Linebaugh's advice. I have a revolver that is fun to shoot and practice with rather than dread a range session.
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