View Full Version : Open carry and shooting oneself in the foot
I actually agree with much of the tone of this article. I remember the idiocy of gun rights groups meeting in Starbucks a few years back and the immediate thought along the lines of, “Well that’s a stupid thing to do when you’re trying to not put off the 32-yr-old blonde mom stopping by for a latte with her two kids before heading to Target in her athleisure outfit.”
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/walmart-open-carry-ban-dmitriy-andreychenko.html
I actually agree with much of the tone of this article. I remember the idiocy of gun rights groups meeting in Starbucks a few years back and the immediate thought along the lines of, “Well that’s a stupid thing to do when you’re trying to not put off the 32-yr-old blonde mom stopping by for a latte with her two kids before heading to Target in her athleisure outfit.”
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/walmart-open-carry-ban-dmitriy-andreychenko.html
Self-proclaimed street activists generally represent the worst of a given group.
In your face has worked well for blacks and gays.
Back in 94 I was big on open carry as a sign of support for the 2A. This was when the original Clinton gun ban was going through / went through. I later decided that it was probably not such a good idea as most people would probably not understand it. I still see it in here in Utah. A couple months ago a black guy was open carrying in Walmart. I was interested in seeing what he was carrying, from a gun-nerd point of view, but was not in the least bit alarmed. If anyone comes into Walmart "open carrying" in their waistband, I might get worried.
I've seen a bunch of open cary in Walmart come to think of it. All nice, decent, respectable guys of all races / ethnicities.
I went to Cracker Barrel leaving Atlanta last Sunday and an older guy was open carrying a 1911. No one said anything, most probably didn't even notice. I was carrying concealed as usual... I'm not a fan because I don't want to be a target, I'd rather blend in... To each their own tho.
OC-ing a pistol is a lot different than grocery shopping with body armor (or just chest rig) and a slung rifle.
Belmont31R
09-07-19, 19:37
I actually think its a good thing and people will see its a non issue. People who freak out weren't on your side to begin with.
Plus its protection for CCW people when an inadvertent shirt slip happens.
OC to me is like you are popping in to get something on the way hunting or some such.
But going out to "prove a point" is turbo lame
OC to me is like you are popping in to get something on the way hunting or some such.
But going out to "prove a point" is turbo lame
I also normally open carry a pistol to, from, and at the range but normally don't make any stops. I also use a retention holster.
I see a lot of ranchers open carrying in South Dakota, but they aren't doing it to make a statement.
Andy
OC to me is like you are popping in to get something on the way hunting or some such.
But going out to "prove a point" is turbo lame
In the summer, because I can, I OC because it's more comfortable. I wear polos and khakis so most people simply assume it's occupational related anyway. I've had a couple people ask and I just answer "it's for work" which is technically true.
If you dress like a professional, responsible person...that is what most people see. If you dress like a clown with a green mohawk and a tactical kilt...people see a crazy person. Demeanor is also important. If you are open carrying a handgun, you can't start shit because someone in the express lane has more than 10 items. If McDonalds ****ed up your food order you have to solve it in a calm, reasonable fashion. Things like that.
Also if you open carry, leave all the second amendment "freedom" message shirts at home.
OC-ing a pistol is a lot different than grocery shopping with body armor (or just chest rig) and a slung rifle.
We would have to be very much "game on" for me to open carry a rifle and grocery shopping wouldn't be my highest priority. I can remember as a kid when one of the sandwich shops had a courtesy rack for cased rifles when hunters took a break for lunch. But that was back when people were mostly normal about firearms and how to have firearms in public.
I didn't even open carry a pistol in the last half dozen classes I took.
Lotsa people open carry in South Dakota, ain't no thang !
diving dave
09-08-19, 09:55
When I was a LEO in CA we had a bunch of open carry dudes meet at a local starbucks... Nice guys, and as usual the flood of 911 calls always came streaming in. Local media did a story on them. Anyways, a month or so later, one guy was leaving and going to his car. Gets attacked by a parolee from behind. Was knocked out and his gun taken. It was later recovered, and the crook admitted he saw the news story and figured that was the easiest way to het his hands on a gun. The only time I open carry is when I'm teaching a class or hiking in the mountains.
I open carry on my own property, on relative's property or if I'm out screwing around in the sticks or rural back roads somewhere. Also at the range, obviously.
The only time I open carry in public is if I am stopping to put gas in my Jeep and didn't bother to throw on an overshirt.
That being said, I'm not a "deep cover" CC'er. I usually just carry OWB with a button-down shirt over it (or if it's too hot, I pocket carry a J-Frame). If I routinely spent more time in crowded places where I might be more apt to jostle into people I might rethink my strategy though.
OC to me is like you are popping in to get something on the way hunting or some such.
But going out to "prove a point" is turbo lame
/thread
Gunnar da Wolf
09-08-19, 20:24
Somewhere on the Internet this week I read an opinion that the guys OCing a long gun in public are the same mentality as the guys wearing assless chaps in a gay pride parade. “I have a RIGHT to do it even if it hurts my cause because I WANT ATTENTION!!!”
I honestly can’t disagree with that opinion...
Somewhere on the Internet this week I read an opinion that the guys OCing a long gun in public are the same mentality as the guys wearing assless chaps in a gay pride parade. “I have a RIGHT to do it even if it hurts my cause because I WANT ATTENTION!!!”
I honestly can’t disagree with that opinion...
It really depends why you are OC'ing a long rifle. I can't think of one that requires me to go into a shopping mall, grocery store or things like that. But in rural areas it's no different than when people did it all the time during the frontier days.
Also the assless chaps is a tired metaphor, mostly because gay rights are inviolate now despite the assless chaps. One could say the assless chaps so conditioned the public into full acceptance that the "gay rights" crowd got everything they wanted.
Somewhere on the Internet this week I read an opinion that the guys OCing a long gun in public are the same mentality as the guys wearing assless chaps in a gay pride parade. “I have a RIGHT to do it even if it hurts my cause because I WANT ATTENTION!!!”
I honestly can’t disagree with that opinion...
Comparing assless chaps gay men and closeted gun owners, which group has been more successful in getting what they claim to want?
This is a point I've made to people who ask my opinion on OC many times. OC requires a high degree of situational awareness at all times. Not everyone who can legally OC is prepared for or capable of being in that 'switched on' condition at all times. I've seen people OC while walking across a p-lot and texting on their phone and I'm like, at least cover it with that XXL t-shirt you're wearing you idiot.
On another note... Aren't all chaps assless?
In the summer, because I can, I OC because it's more comfortable. I wear polos and khakis so most people simply assume it's occupational related anyway. I've had a couple people ask and I just answer "it's for work" which is technically true.
If you dress like a professional, responsible person...that is what most people see. If you dress like a clown with a green mohawk and a tactical kilt...people see a crazy person. Demeanor is also important. If you are open carrying a handgun, you can't start shit because someone in the express lane has more than 10 items. If McDonalds ****ed up your food order you have to solve it in a calm, reasonable fashion. Things like that.
Also if you open carry, leave all the second amendment "freedom" message shirts at home.
Different folks take things differently, I have always disliked the practice many local detectives have of open carrying with belt badges. I've always equated it with - hey look at me, first target.
Lotsa people open carry in South Dakota, ain't no thang !
If it was the norm I'd probably join in, a heck of a lot more convenient. Until it is commonplace I will try to remain grey.
This is a point I've made to people who ask my opinion on OC many times. OC requires a high degree of situational awareness at all times. Not everyone who can legally OC is prepared for or capable of being in that 'switched on' condition at all times. I've seen people OC while walking across a p-lot and texting on their phone and I'm like, at least cover it with that XXL t-shirt you're wearing you idiot.
On another note... Aren't all chaps assless?
But the CCW crowd isn't always better. How many women leave a gun in their purse, then put their purse in the shopping cart while they walk around shopping? How many times do they leave a gun in their purse, in a shopping cart with an unattended toddler?
The majority of people who carry a firearm, and this includes hunters who are out hunting are not adequately trained in basic gun safety let alone situational awareness, command and control / weapon retention or any other rare, esoteric skills that we consider basic.
Different folks take things differently, I have always disliked the practice many local detectives have of open carrying with belt badges. I've always equated it with - hey look at me, first target.
Honestly, for me it is climate dependent. Give me jacket weather and you won't ever see it.
But the CCW crowd isn't always better. How many women leave a gun in their purse, then put their purse in the shopping cart while they walk around shopping? How many times do they leave a gun in their purse, in a shopping cart with an unattended toddler?
The majority of people who carry a firearm, and this includes hunters who are out hunting are not adequately trained in basic gun safety let alone situational awareness, command and control / weapon retention or any other rare, esoteric skills that we consider basic.
True. And don't even get me started on all the times I was called to TSA screening at the airport because some dolt forgot he had his pistol in his briefcase.
But the CCW crowd isn't always better. How many women leave a gun in their purse, then put their purse in the shopping cart while they walk around shopping? How many times do they leave a gun in their purse, in a shopping cart with an unattended toddler?
The majority of people who carry a firearm, and this includes hunters who are out hunting are not adequately trained in basic gun safety let alone situational awareness, command and control / weapon retention or any other rare, esoteric skills that we consider basic.
Like I said in a different thread the American public en masse are by and large abject morons.
But, freedom.
OC is stupid for all the reasons that have been highlighted but it should still be an option available to folks.
And states that permit OC but require a permit for CCW are just plain dumb.
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Open Carry in rural New Mexico is seen often, but not all the time. You go to the barber shop in town, you'll see folks with a holster and gun on. Same with local eateries and smaller grocery stores and the Feed & Tack stores. What isn't seen are the number of folks who carry concealed without the CC permit. It's much greater than the open carry population. It's a petty misdemeanor in this State if you're ever stopped for hiding the weapon on your person without the permit, and the chances of getting stopped for the average lawful citizen are small in areas of sparse populations. You have a higher risk going to Albuquerque or Santa Fe, but a small pistol in a heavy coat would never be noticed, and I know of people who do this regularly, especially in colder weather.
For me at work here on the ranch, a gun in a holster just gets in the way. Now a rifle in a scabbard or pistol in the saddle bag is the solution, but many times I'm just in the truck and the firearm is close at hand there. We have enough wildlife like Mountain Lions that it's always wise to carry a firearm in the field. In places like Albuquerque, there's another kind of two-legged wildlife you have to be ready for.
eightmillimeter
09-10-19, 00:52
Different folks take things differently, I have always disliked the practice many local detectives have of open carrying with belt badges. I've always equated it with - hey look at me, first target.
Yes first target just like any other officer in a uniform, and very often required to be armed and display belt badge by dept. policy.
Yes first target just like any other officer in a uniform, and very often required to be armed and display belt badge by dept. policy.
Nope. I might have forgot to mention I worked for one of the agencies to which I was referring, so I knew their policies. It was just a thing with the detectives.
And as far as the 'just like any other officer in uniform' thing goes, if you are going to OC, why the big deal about plainclothes in the first place? Just wear a soft uni.
The majority of people who carry a firearm, and this includes hunters who are out hunting are not adequately trained in basic gun safety let alone situational awareness, command and control / weapon retention or any other rare, esoteric skills that we consider basic.
Damn, dude - what do you hunt?
Andy
Damn, dude - what do you hunt?
Andy
Met 2 guys during white tail muzzle loader season coming out of the woods bragging about taking brush shots.
Was talking to a cop who was telling me about dove hunting with other cops and they all thought it was funny a neighbor to the field was pissed that shot kept hitting her roof.
Turkey hunting can teeter on being like Russian roulette in certain areas.
From what I have read, and it does seem to be true, safety is way better than it used to be.
I was referring more to the command control and weapons retention aspect of the post. Safety is never a joke.
Averageman
09-10-19, 11:05
I haven't hunted in some time, so the need to open carry is negligible for me.
I do open carry to, from and while at the range. I never want to leave a long gun on the table and then walk down range to change targets without having something to shoot back with.
eightmillimeter
09-10-19, 11:12
Nope. I might have forgot to mention I worked for one of the agencies to which I was referring, so I knew their policies. It was just a thing with the detectives.
And as far as the 'just like any other officer in uniform' thing goes, if you are going to OC, why the big deal about plainclothes in the first place? Just wear a soft uni.
P1 - it’s a common policy issue, never said it was everywhere, but it is common, and therefore inappropriate to throw all non-uniforms under the bus that would rather not just carry w/ a belt badge.
P2 - agree on all points, but I don’t write the rules
SomeOtherGuy
09-10-19, 14:55
OC is stupid for all the reasons that have been highlighted but it should still be an option available to folks.
And states that permit OC but require a permit for CCW are just plain dumb.
Agree on both. I've heard the claim that exposing your sidearm in some CCW states like Texas is illegal, even if by accident. That's dumb. Legal OC prevents this stupidity.
But I've open carried exactly zero times in urban or non-gun settings. Certain range settings I open carry without a thought, as does everyone else. I also open carry on my farm, where there are four-legged critters that are dangerous and run fast enough that simply getting out of concealment could be an issue. I like open carry being legal for this kind of use.
Damn, dude - what do you hunt?
Andy
Really doesn't matter. Whatever you hunt, there will be a tard contingent.
I was referring more to the command control and weapons retention aspect of the post. Safety is never a joke.
Oh sorry. I was drawing a rather direct parallel unintentionally. But I have seen some sloppy slinging before.
People open carrying a pistol shoots all of us in the foot.
Probably should differentiate... Waltzing in starbucks or wally world is different than on my property or business, in my vehicle, etc.
I believe we should have the right to do so, especially to avoid LEO nonsense about brandishing like FL for any other than fully concealed. (Shirt rode up)
But people doing it to prove a point, that hurts us and never wins folks over.
I hate to break it to many here, but opponents (private and public) of open carry have never, and will never, support concealed carry either. Got to see the antics in Kentucky 25 years ago surrounding concealed carry legislation.
Oh sorry. I was drawing a rather direct parallel unintentionally. But I have seen some sloppy slinging before.
My mind works in weird ways. You post was solid.
Out of site, of mind. Open carry in the face of a largely anti-gun public accomplishes nothing positive and harms the cause. Don't do it.
Out of site, of mind. Open carry in the face of a largely anti-gun public accomplishes nothing positive and harms the cause. Don't do it.
I don't think it makes a difference one way or the other with that segment of the population. Open carry is mostly a recent occurrence, but the anti gun crusade goes back a century and a half.
If the subservient approach was going to pay off it would have done so long ago.
Blacks figured out that was never going anywhere also. They were openly violating laws on how they were to behave in public which enraged their opposition (private sector and public). They were obviously going looking for attention and they sure got it as seen from the film footage of the fire hosings, dog attacks, and generally getting assaulted. Were the blacks wrong in engaging in that behavior?
Out of site, of mind. Open carry in the face of a largely anti-gun public accomplishes nothing positive and harms the cause. Don't do it.
Again, very zip code dependent. Just like everything else. OC where nobody is "triggered"by the sight of a firearm and no big deal. Go to CA and if people find out you even own a gun, most won't let their kids play at your house.
At what point does kowtowing to that mindset become counter productive? If they are openly gay, then I'm openly armed. They can also just deal with it.
Out of site, of mind. Open carry in the face of a largely anti-gun public accomplishes nothing positive and harms the cause. Don't do it.
If the public is already anti gun, then no harm can come of it.
Andy
Coal Dragger
09-10-19, 23:12
Lotsa people open carry in South Dakota, ain't no thang !
Can confirm. Same for Wyoming.
No one even cares as far as I can tell.
Open carry has its place for sure. I’m always at a loss as to why so many seemingly “pro gun” folks are so against it.
If it’s being done in a douchey fashion, sure I understand the view of it in a negative light. But I’d wager that’s a smaller percentage of OC’rs than most perceive.
It’s either a right or it isn’t. Do what you want, but the stigma surrounding Oc by even the “pro gun” crowd is just annoying.
Open carry has its place for sure. I’m always at a loss as to why so many seemingly “pro gun” folks are so against it.
If it’s being done in a douchey fashion, sure I understand the view of it in a negative light. But I’d wager that’s a smaller percentage of OC’rs than most perceive.
It’s either a right or it isn’t. Do what you want, but the stigma surrounding Oc by even the “pro gun” crowd is just annoying.
I think OC activists are more a problem than people who OC.
It's an even bigger problem when OC activists groups gather at a business without prior arrangement / consent and force the business owner to choose which customers he is going to cater to, and the activists almost always lose.
When idiots started showing up in Starbucks with slung rifles what did they think would happen. Especially if members look sorta sketchy it makes it worse.
When most people see a group of 4 people wearing khakis and shirt and tie or polo with holstered handguns they assume off duty or some other kind of security occupation person. But if one guy has a neck tattoo, the girl has a green mohawk and another person has a nose ring...people assume they are probably going to shoot up a movie theater. It's even worse if they are slinging rifles.
Even actual LEOs aren't gonna sling carbines in a donut shop. And it's a good rule of thumb to follow that example. The exception would be IF it's actually hunting season and it's a diner KNOWN to cater to lunchtime hunters and even then it's usually cased rifles against the wall and even THAT is a bit uncommon these days and mostly a rural thing.
Other than that, discretion usually wins. Nobody needs to know it's an MP5k, I just tell them it's my laptop in that case that looks like a laptop computer case.
I think OC activists are more a problem than people who OC.
It's an even bigger problem when OC activists groups gather at a business without prior arrangement / consent and force the business owner to choose which customers he is going to cater to, and the activists almost always lose.
When idiots started showing up in Starbucks with slung rifles what did they think would happen. Especially if members look sorta sketchy it makes it worse.
When most people see a group of 4 people wearing khakis and shirt and tie or polo with holstered handguns they assume off duty or some other kind of security occupation person. But if one guy has a neck tattoo, the girl has a green mohawk and another person has a nose ring...people assume they are probably going to shoot up a movie theater. It's even worse if they are slinging rifles.
Even actual LEOs aren't gonna sling carbines in a donut shop. And it's a good rule of thumb to follow that example. The exception would be IF it's actually hunting season and it's a diner KNOWN to cater to lunchtime hunters and even then it's usually cased rifles against the wall and even THAT is a bit uncommon these days and mostly a rural thing.
Other than that, discretion usually wins. Nobody needs to know it's an MP5k, I just tell them it's my laptop in that case that looks like a laptop computer case.
And when open carry activists have informed everyone what, when, where, and why it has often been met with LE breaking the law without consequence.
Not really sure trying to be perceived as LE or security is any kind of overall benefit since that would only serve to perpetuate the only ones in the room professional enough to be armed ideology.
It took awhile, but I can't recall anyone flipping their wig when a black man walks in the front door of a restaurant and sits down to eat like everyone else.
If the public is already anti gun, then no harm can come of it.
Andy
Except for the segment of the public that thought they were indifferent, or were on the fence.
Except for the segment of the public that thought they were indifferent, or were on the fence.
Then they (along with some who are anti gun for reasons other than wanting a more easily attacked victim) get to see firearms owners not shooting the place up.
Much like an earlier era who were on the fence, indifferent, or misled got to see a black guy sit down and eat a meal without raping, robbing, and murdering his fellow citizens.
This is the society we have become, and it's more than just guns. LGBQT or whatever they are, get in your face about Pride, and they have Pride parades to prance around and show off the miracle of being Gay or Trans. They have to get in-your-face about it to guarantee your acceptance. What about Social Media, and SnapChat, Instagram, etc.? Everyone is taking pictures of themselves (selfies) and letting you know their mood at that particular instant in time. It's the LOOK-AT-ME Generation, and it has to be force fed to everyone else.
Then we get to Open Carry. I hear so many people say that unless you exercise a right, you will lose it. At what point does strapping on that iron, prancing around the local Wal-Mart in tactical garb exercise a right, or just makes you a Dick? I see Open Carry in the rural West occasionally, and sometimes often, but it's not all the time. Here it's not a big deal, but your self-centered little life and lifestyle may not be a good fit in other areas and other venues. Just like a 6 foot tall bearded Male Drag Queen in a blue mini-skirt may not be a good fit for serving food at the Chuck E Cheese Pizza joint that caters to little kids, maybe getting in-your-face to others about that big iron strapped on your hip, or the AR over the shoulder at the local grocery store just isn't the right time.
You lose rights or credibility when you try to force feed your lifestyle to others who maybe could care less, or don't want to see it.
I think OC activists are more a problem than people who OC.
It's an even bigger problem when OC activists groups gather at a business without prior arrangement / consent and force the business owner to choose which customers he is going to cater to, and the activists almost always lose.
When idiots started showing up in Starbucks with slung rifles what did they think would happen. Especially if members look sorta sketchy it makes it worse.
When most people see a group of 4 people wearing khakis and shirt and tie or polo with holstered handguns they assume off duty or some other kind of security occupation person. But if one guy has a neck tattoo, the girl has a green mohawk and another person has a nose ring...people assume they are probably going to shoot up a movie theater. It's even worse if they are slinging rifles.
Even actual LEOs aren't gonna sling carbines in a donut shop. And it's a good rule of thumb to follow that example. The exception would be IF it's actually hunting season and it's a diner KNOWN to cater to lunchtime hunters and even then it's usually cased rifles against the wall and even THAT is a bit uncommon these days and mostly a rural thing.
Other than that, discretion usually wins. Nobody needs to know it's an MP5k, I just tell them it's my laptop in that case that looks like a laptop computer case.
So where should firearms be allowed considering the opposition to possession for most extends to a person's home? That includes any kind of practical practice or competition going back to the South Western Comb...uh, I mean, Southwest Pistol League.
This is the society we have become, and it's more than just guns. LGBQT or whatever they are, get in your face about Pride, and they have Pride parades to prance around and show off the miracle of being Gay or Trans. They have to get in-your-face about it to guarantee your acceptance. What about Social Media, and SnapChat, Instagram, etc.? Everyone is taking pictures of themselves (selfies) and letting you know their mood at that particular instant in time. It's the LOOK-AT-ME Generation, and it has to be force fed to everyone else.
Then we get to Open Carry. I hear so many people say that unless you exercise a right, you will lose it. At what point does strapping on that iron, prancing around the local Wal-Mart in tactical garb exercise a right, or just makes you a Dick? I see Open Carry in the rural West occasionally, and sometimes often, but it's not all the time. Here it's not a big deal, but your self-centered little life and lifestyle may not be a good fit in other areas and other venues. Just like a 6 foot tall bearded Male Drag Queen in a blue mini-skirt may not be a good fit for serving food at the Chuck E Cheese Pizza joint that caters to little kids, maybe getting in-your-face to others about that big iron strapped on your hip, or the AR over the shoulder at the local grocery store just isn't the right time.
You lose rights or credibility when you try to force feed your lifestyle to others who maybe could care less, or don't want to see it.
Wow! Nailed it! Read it again folks!
And when open carry activists have informed everyone what, when, where, and why it has often been met with LE breaking the law without consequence.
Not really sure trying to be perceived as LE or security is any kind of overall benefit since that would only serve to perpetuate the only ones in the room professional enough to be armed ideology.
It took awhile, but I can't recall anyone flipping their wig when a black man walks in the front door of a restaurant and sits down to eat like everyone else.
I'm just suggesting using that standard vs. a guy in a tactical kilt. Also we are trying to normalize a concept so adopting accepted trends is probably a good starting point.
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