View Full Version : Recommendations for someone who isn't a "serious shooter."
grizzlyblake
09-10-19, 09:42
I realize most members here shoot weekly, and shoot multiple thousands of rounds of ammo each year. I've gathered most guys here are current LE or some other profession that requires daily "serious" carry of guns in some form.
What about the average Joe who does not work in LE, but who wants to equip himself to best protect his family in the face of the coming election and all the talk of tighter firearms restrictions in the government?
The reality is that most guys don't have the time, money, or desire to go to any kind of tactical training classes. Most guys are going to buy something and go shoot it some at an indoor range, maybe every month or two if they're trying to stay relatively fresh.
What sort of shopping list would be smart for guys in that situation, which is to say the majority of non-LE guys?
Recommendations for someone who isn't a "serious shooter.": Become one.
An expectation of superior, or above average performance, without putting in the effort/trigger time, is doomed to failure.
Dry fire is hugely beneficial, but requires verification with live fire.
FYI, because one is active LE is NO guarantee of firearms ability or excellence.
Those that exhibit superior skills do so because of their effort at honing those skills. Like everyone else.
A Glock 17/19 or an HK P2000 LEM
10 mags minimum.
I disagree with the whole "become one" per people who dont shoot or really care about guns. That is a bit of a turn off.
Most people just want a handgun "just in case".
Because some people are normies who may only shoot once in a blue moon but want to have a gun....you cannot top my two suggestions. They just work. Require little attention. And esp for Glock have a good logistics train.
I try to steer people away from revolvers because they are more involved than people realize.
That said, a solid pistol that instills confidence leads to branching interests in guns. But if not...they have something covering 80% of their bases.
In times past, I would have forwarded a shotgun but times are different now with criminality that a shotgun simply isnt good for anything but hunting and social familiarization has removed a lot of the skeumorphic intuity people used to have for them.
An AR is nice but....start with a pistol.
Just my 2 cents. If you arent recommending a good basic class and are unwilling to lend help beyond suggestions; dont discuss guns with people.
IRL I am no longer "the gun guy" and have not been for a long, long time
SomeOtherGuy
09-10-19, 10:14
What about the average Joe who does not work in LE, but who wants to equip himself to best protect his family in the face of the coming election and all the talk of tighter firearms restrictions in the government?
For basic personal defense, an appropriate, common handgun - Glock 17/19, M&P9 v2.0, Sig P320, etc. Take a CCW course, get your license, take more training courses. This is the most practical firearm to have.
Unsure how to interpret "the coming election." If you are talking about serious disruption, then having two or more good rifles, ammo and training is what you would need. This is beyond what most of the people you describe are actually going to do, so it might be money wasted to go down that path.
People often assume there will be a repeat of the '94 AWB, but who's to say that. Buy what makes the most sense to actually own and use regardless. That includes an adequate number of standard capacity mags for each pistol and rifle you own.
grizzlyblake
09-10-19, 10:20
I had a buddy over recently and he was talking about how he thinks he may want an AR because of all the talk in the news. I was showing him one of mine and he asked how many magazines I had for it. When I answered he looked at me like I had said something in a foreign language. He then asked how much the red dot (T2) cost. When I answered he kind of chuckled, shook his head and handed the gun back to me.
I appreciate the whole "buy a 6920, Aimpoint, 20 Pmags, and a few cases of M193" but that just isn't something that a non gun guy is going to digest.
The Glock 19, mags, holster, ammo, is smart and an easy answer. At the same time the news cycle has everybody thinking they should buy an AR.
I realize most members here shoot weekly, and shoot multiple thousands of rounds of ammo each year. I've gathered most guys here are current LE or some other profession that requires daily "serious" carry of guns in some form.
What about the average Joe who does not work in LE, but who wants to equip himself to best protect his family in the face of the coming election and all the talk of tighter firearms restrictions in the government?
The reality is that most guys don't have the time, money, or desire to go to any kind of tactical training classes. Most guys are going to buy something and go shoot it some at an indoor range, maybe every month or two if they're trying to stay relatively fresh.
What sort of shopping list would be smart for guys in that situation, which is to say the majority of non-LE guys?
Get any decent mainstream pistol, whatever you need (g19, shield, whatever).
Be able to hit a target and get serious for a few months.
Dry fire, practice handling and manipulations, etc.
Then go do a few matches and/or classes that involve movement.
IME, being able to safely handle a gun under pressure and getting comfortable moving/running with a gun safely is difficult for people to do and I would not want to be in a SD situation trying to do it for the first time.
Overall skills will diminish with time, but IMe they stop degrading at some point. If you put it up for a while, those basic skillsets and instincts stay for the most part.
Agree for that kind of person, better to not get overwhelmed with the whole "You need to immerse and adopt a POTG life and mindset." That's something that people will find they get into after a while or they don't, but either way, folks can and should do basic preparation.
I'd start with a 9mm pistol (agree with 100% of the previous suggestions, my current is an M&P Gen 2 compact 4"), FMJ ammo (practice), some quality JHP ammo (defense), and a handheld or weapon-mounted light. I'd add a kydex holster--lots of good suggestions in the sticky thread in semiauto pistols--lately I prefer Dale Fricke holsters. Identify a range where you can join or go shoot at least monthly. And finally--though it may not be realistic to expect this person to take a bunch of fancy training classes with the jedi guys--I'd get at least one or two locally run training class that cover the basics of safe pistol handling, concealed carry, and home defense.
I had a buddy over recently and he was talking about how he thinks he may want an AR because of all the talk in the news. I was showing him one of mine and he asked how many magazines I had for it. When I answered he looked at me like I had said something in a foreign language. He then asked how much the red dot (T2) cost. When I answered he kind of chuckled, shook his head and handed the gun back to me.
I appreciate the whole "buy a 6920, Aimpoint, 20 Pmags, and a few cases of M193" but that just isn't something that a non gun guy is going to digest.
The Glock 19, mags, holster, ammo, is smart and an easy answer. At the same time the news cycle has everybody thinking they should buy an AR.
You did your buddy a disservice, were you trying to talk him out of getting an AR? Any non gun guy looking to get into the game needs to be steered to a decent entry level AR, a decent budget RDS, and a few good mags. The rest will come later naturally or if not he will still have a serviceable rifle.
Not sure what "LE" status has to do with anything. Most cops aren't like the LE guys who are members here, and in tune with good gear and stuff.
I'd guess that many non-LE guys here run a gun harder than many cops. That said... there's no excuse to buy cheap junk just because you're not a cop.
We know a kid who bought a S&W Sport AR. He doesn't shoot much at all, and we've had to fix a lot of broken stuff on that POS. Mag catch busted (crippling the gun)... I mean.. WTF? You can't save your life with a worthless gun.
There are levels of "isnt a serious shooter". Are they the kind that sometimes shoot or are they the type that bought a fire extinguisher?
I know both types. Most of my family is the fire extinguisher type. They don't know or care about the differences in types of firearms and why one is better than the other. None are going to be buying long guns and none are political. While they may favor one candidate over another or one party over the other it's not because of 2A.
For these people I ask how much they want to spend and what the plans are for the gun. Then I give examples of quality guns in each price range and let them decide. They're not going to understand the difference between striker and hammer or brand A vs brand B or even caliber A vs B. None of them are going to carry so I give examples of duty size guns...G17-19 size. And I'll recommend HK, Glock, M&P, CZ, Beretta, Sig...
For the group that is at least a little knowledgeable Ill be a little more in depth because they understand what it means if I say a 40 is snappy or the need for more than one mag and a box of ammo. But in the end they buy what they want to and usually base it on price. It used to kinda bother me....like I know you know better....I know you have the information to make a more informed decision. But then I realized that even though they know they don't really care based on how much they shoot. I've been offering a friend to go in on mags and ammo. We could split it. He's not interested, doesn't want to spend the money and I realized that he's right. He shoots once in a while....like a long while....like once every few years....and what he has is plenty for how he shoots.
Averageman
09-10-19, 11:10
We know a kid who bought a S&W Sport AR. He doesn't shoot much at all, and we've had to fix a lot of broken stuff on that POS. Mag catch busted (crippling the gun)... I mean.. WTF? You can't save your life with a worthless gun.
It's hard sometimes to explain that to people, they need a first hand experience to understand just how crappy a rifle they get trying to save nickles and dimes along the way. Optics are the same way, but you have to prove it to people all the time.
I don't talk to many people about guns anymore, but when I do I say "This is what I have, this is why I bought it."
Explaining subtle nuances? You might as well talk to the dog.
MountainRaven
09-10-19, 11:30
Glock 19/45/17/34 Gen4 or Gen5 w/ Ameriglo Bold sights
Spare OEM mags (5-10 total)
SureFire X300U
RCS Perun for Glock/X300U
RCS Copia
Colt LE6920 (alternatively: BCM pistol lower w/ SBA3 brace and a BCM Standard 11.5" URG w/o handguard)
Spare Magpul mags (5-15 total)
Aimpoint PRO
BlueForceGear VCAS sling
Streamlight ProTac Rail Mount Long Gun Light (with clicky tailcap)
Magpul MOE/MOE SL handguard
Magpul Cantilever M-LOK light mount
Couple of lengths of paracord to attach the sling to the rifle
RCS Pistol/Rifle/Rifle (or Rifle/Rifle/Pistol) Copia
Everything you need, nothing you don't.
BoringGuy45
09-10-19, 12:16
Not sure what "LE" status has to do with anything. Most cops aren't like the LE guys who are members here, and in tune with good gear and stuff.
I'd guess that many non-LE guys here run a gun harder than many cops. That said... there's no excuse to buy cheap junk just because you're not a cop.
We know a kid who bought a S&W Sport AR. He doesn't shoot much at all, and we've had to fix a lot of broken stuff on that POS. Mag catch busted (crippling the gun)... I mean.. WTF? You can't save your life with a worthless gun.
You'd probably find that about 9 out of 10 cops really couldn't care less about their guns. That's not to say that most cops are anti-gun or wish they could work unarmed like British Bobbies. Simply that they don't give their gun, or any of their gear, much thought until they have to use it. I can say with almost absolute certainty, based on personal experience as a police officer, that your average civilian gun enthusiast spends probably 10 times the amount of time and ammo on the range every year that your average LEO does. Where your average cop has an advantage is that he at least had formal training in the academy. Your average enthusiast likely taught himself to shoot and is fraught with bad habits that he's too stubborn to admit he has. But for a trained civilian who has actually attended classes and practices continually, I can guarantee they are more proficient shooters than most cops.
I always told people that cops were the last people to ask firearms advice (other than, you know, liberal politicians). Even among the ones who are into guns, most aren't any better informed than your average Joe Blow gun store customer. When it comes to getting firearms advice, I always find that the best people to ask are reputable civilian trainers, because it's their mission to know gear, techniques, and laws. For cops, the gun makes up less than 1% of their job.
FlyAndFight
09-10-19, 12:49
As already mentioned, it is imperative that the supposed "non-serious shooter" understand that the "Buy once, cry once" / "You get what you pay for" phrases are truly applicable in the case of firearms and their associated purchases.
Be there for them, Guide and assist as much as possible. Personal experience has shown that they will truly appreciate it, once they evolve into a more serious shooter.
Dr. Bullseye
09-10-19, 13:01
I bought an AR in 2015 because of the threat of civil unrest and having to act now or perhaps losing my ability to ever buy one. I need a general, all around firearm. Pistols are for 6 ft., I need at least 60 yards. I shoot twice a month and have a specific goal when I shoot---something I am working on. Classes? Where? Who will pay for this? Screw that . Show me what can't be learned on youtube and practiced in person? I don't need fancy optics although I did buy them. Most likely, my first deployment will be in my basement or around the property after dark. Do you think I am going to be adjusting a sling or finding distance down a scope as my first move? I am not a soldier or operator and I don't want to be one. I simply work on shooting fundamentals in as many practical positions as my environment dictates and on movement.
turnburglar
09-10-19, 13:20
I think 99% of gun owners fall into the "non serious shooter" catagorey. And dont take that as a bad thing either, it just means some people can meerly appreciate a hobby and not make it a lifestyle. Nothing wrong with that at all. And really I dont care if you own 1 gun or a closet full of guns like some of my friends. If you dont know how to dissasemble and clean, or be profecient on the range with a gun; you are starting to put the emphasis in NON SERIOUS shooter. It makes my soul weep every time I am at my local indoor range and I hear another customer say: "Do you offer gun cleaning services?". I know for a fact, its not because the dude is so baller that his guns are perpetually filthy from suppressed use. It's because they dont know how. When I was in the military we litterally had a 1 day class on the M4 carbine. We spent about 4 hours talking about it, and then 3 hours shooting it. By the end of that I was able to: disasemable and clean, sight in, reload, and accurately fire from multiple positions. This isnt bragging, rather it is the standard that every gun owner should subscribe to achieve. You dont need to draw from concealment or own NVG's, but being taught the basics, and then going home and practicing those basics will get you REALLY far down the road. For not alot of money either. The misconception with classes is that; skills are perishable, but fundementals can always be practiced on your own. You could probably attend one or two really good classes, and have a skillset for life. It is just up to you to keep practicing in your own time.
So after getting a carbine class or two under your belt, the next place a non serious shooter should look to save money would be optics. It's insane to ask a working class person to spend "the price of the rifle on optics". Most shooter's simply dont see the value of optics on the 100 yard or less shooting they do. But they still deserve optics of ACCEPTABLE glass, decent features and a decent amount of reliability. Uncle sam let me borrow an aimpoint Comp M4, and I personally proved its reliability in afghanistan. Will I spend my own money on an aimpiont? No. My rifles all wear Primary Arms for glass or holosun for Red dot. In fact I probably have optics for 3 rifles and still havent spent aimpoint money.
My last tip of advice: shoot guns more than you collect them. As I said earlier I have friends who have WAAYYY more guns than me. Would I want them on the two way range with me? God no. It's the idian more than the arrow, applies here.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-10-19, 15:17
I’d say look at it over a 24 month, three calendar year time frame. Glock now. Buy 200 rounds a month, shoot 100. Next spring buy a BCM AR. Same thing with 556 ammo. Spring 2021, look at buying an optic for the AR, and or a second glock. Continue ammo.
You’d have a Glock and 600 rounds, an AR and 1200rounds and a scope, or a second Glock, as a spare or special CCW version. Call the guns Birthday presents and the ammo is less than dinner out once for a family of four per month.
That and find a monthly local competition that you can make 4-6 times a year.
That’s nothing crazy. Not like you are finding random lowers in drawers you don’t remember buying, cases of 9mm of unknown origin, or unmarked mags that you can’t remember which gun they were for.
ETA; my buy plan with MountianRavens specifics, outside of maybe the x300 for the handgun- that is really nice, but pretty spendy.
I appreciate the whole "buy a 6920, Aimpoint, 20 Pmags, and a few cases of M193" but that just isn't something that a non gun guy is going to digest.
6920s are hardly the most expensive AR, in fact they are cheaper than some crap ARs. He can probably get by with the two mags Colt sends with the rifle and iron sights. But honestly if he can't afford a basic stock rifle, he shouldn't even bother.
I’d say look at it over a 24 month, three calendar year time frame. Glock now. Buy 200 rounds a month, shoot 100. Next spring buy a BCM AR. Same thing with 556 ammo. Spring 2021, look at buying an optic for the AR, and or a second glock. Continue ammo.
You’d have a Glock and 600 rounds, an AR and 1200rounds and a scope, or a second Glock, as a spare or special CCW version. Call the guns Birthday presents and the ammo is less than dinner out once for a family of four per month.
That and find a monthly local competition that you can make 4-6 times a year.
That’s nothing crazy. Not like you are finding random lowers in drawers you don’t remember buying, cases of 9mm of unknown origin, or unmarked mags that you can’t remember which gun they were for.
ETA; my buy plan with MountianRavens specifics, outside of maybe the x300 for the handgun- that is really nice, but pretty spendy.
I like this idea...If I were starting from scratch this is a plan I would follow.
WickedWillis
09-10-19, 16:13
Glock 19/45/17/34 Gen4 or Gen5 w/ Ameriglo Bold sights
Spare OEM mags (5-10 total)
SureFire X300U
RCS Perun for Glock/X300U
RCS Copia
Colt LE6920 (alternatively: BCM pistol lower w/ SBA3 brace and a BCM Standard 11.5" URG w/o handguard)
Spare Magpul mags (5-15 total)
Aimpoint PRO
BlueForceGear VCAS sling
Streamlight ProTac Rail Mount Long Gun Light (with clicky tailcap)
Magpul MOE/MOE SL handguard
Magpul Cantilever M-LOK light mount
Couple of lengths of paracord to attach the sling to the rifle
RCS Pistol/Rifle/Rifle (or Rifle/Rifle/Pistol) Copia
Everything you need, nothing you don't.
This is a fantastic list, for anyone that wants to train and have quality gear at a reasonable price.
WickedWillis
09-10-19, 16:24
I bought an AR in 2015 because of the threat of civil unrest and having to act now or perhaps losing my ability to ever buy one. I need a general, all around firearm. Pistols are for 6 ft., I need at least 60 yards. I shoot twice a month and have a specific goal when I shoot---something I am working on. Classes? Where? Who will pay for this? Screw that . Show me what can't be learned on youtube and practiced in person? I don't need fancy optics although I did buy them. Most likely, my first deployment will be in my basement or around the property after dark. Do you think I am going to be adjusting a sling or finding distance down a scope as my first move? I am not a soldier or operator and I don't want to be one. I simply work on shooting fundamentals in as many practical positions as my environment dictates and on movement.
While I agree that you can learn a ton on your own, instruction is never, EVER a bad idea.
I learned more in my "basic 2" handgun course at my local range than hundreds of hours watching youtube. This is also while having nearly 9k rounds through my Glock 19, I still feel like I am always learning, and have room to grow.
I also said to myself last range trip, that I really need to invest in carbine courses. It will at the minimum give you a fantastic base to build off of.
You'd probably find that about 9 out of 10 cops really couldn't care less about their guns. That's not to say that most cops are anti-gun or wish they could work unarmed like British Bobbies. Simply that they don't give their gun, or any of their gear, much thought until they have to use it. I can say with almost absolute certainty, based on personal experience as a police officer, that your average civilian gun enthusiast spends probably 10 times the amount of time and ammo on the range every year that your average LEO does. Where your average cop has an advantage is that he at least had formal training in the academy. Your average enthusiast likely taught himself to shoot and is fraught with bad habits that he's too stubborn to admit he has. But for a trained civilian who has actually attended classes and practices continually, I can guarantee they are more proficient shooters than most cops.
I always told people that cops were the last people to ask firearms advice (other than, you know, liberal politicians). Even among the ones who are into guns, most aren't any better informed than your average Joe Blow gun store customer. When it comes to getting firearms advice, I always find that the best people to ask are reputable civilian trainers, because it's their mission to know gear, techniques, and laws. For cops, the gun makes up less than 1% of their job.
9 out of 10 is a stretch.. Probably more like 1 or less out of 100. Years ago our county sheriff issued an unofficial directive to his officers... Do not shoot in an organized competition that didn't have a LEO division. It didn't look good when 70-80% of the shooters out shot the cops. I didn't fault him for his decision. Evidently there is more to being a cop than knowing how to shoot.
Dr. Bullseye
09-10-19, 17:06
While I agree that you can learn a ton on your own, instruction is never, EVER a bad idea.
I learned more in my "basic 2" handgun course at my local range than hundreds of hours watching youtube. This is also while having nearly 9k rounds through my Glock 19, I still feel like I am always learning, and have room to grow.
I also said to myself last range trip, that I really need to invest in carbine courses. It will at the minimum give you a fantastic base to build off of.
It is impossible to argue that instruction from someone who knows more than I do is a bad thing. I am isolated and instruction is expensive. I would love to take a week, drive up to Thunder Ranch, and lay down 3K for a course. This is just out of reach for me.
While I agree that you can learn a ton on your own, instruction is never, EVER a bad idea.
I learned more in my "basic 2" handgun course at my local range than hundreds of hours watching youtube. This is also while having nearly 9k rounds through my Glock 19, I still feel like I am always learning, and have room to grow.
I also said to myself last range trip, that I really need to invest in carbine courses. It will at the minimum give you a fantastic base to build off of.
I learned myself. I recommend classes now for new shooters.
I never used to until I realized:
1. A lot of people are not analytical enough to really help themselves efficiently.
2. A good class will skip hundreds of hours and thousands of rounds on BS you could have dealt with - or at least learn how right off the bat. But you need a great instructor.
You did your buddy a disservice, were you trying to talk him out of getting an AR? Any non gun guy looking to get into the game needs to be steered to a decent entry level AR, a decent budget RDS, and a few good mags. The rest will come later naturally or if not he will still have a serviceable rifle.
This is basically what I did with a friend who likes to shoot a little but wasnt a real gun guy. He went a head and bought an AR on his own, one I wouldnt have recommended, but I didnt say anything...didnt want to dampen his budding enthusiasm. Steered him to a PA budget RDS to get him started and some good 10 rounders (CA.). I think I'm going to gift him some even better mags if you know what I mean. He's probably got $900 into it all and his rig is just fine with him at this point.
Evidently there is more to being a cop than knowing how to shoot.
Seriously, a lot more.
It is impossible to argue that instruction from someone who knows more than I do is a bad thing. I am isolated and instruction is expensive. I would love to take a week, drive up to Thunder Ranch, and lay down 3K for a course. This is just out of reach for me.
There are virtually hundreds of good instructors who don't have a name.
Generally, I kind of turned my nose up at NRA Instructors until I retired and felt I needed to maintain instructor credentials, look here and see if something fits you:
https://firearmtraining.nra.org/student-courses/
Another thing you might do is go to a local deputy/patrolman/trooper you know and ask them who is the local guy to go to.
Show up at competitions, ask the RO's.
You can find someone who will be able to st you right, if you look.
It is impossible to argue that instruction from someone who knows more than I do is a bad thing. I am isolated and instruction is expensive. I would love to take a week, drive up to Thunder Ranch, and lay down 3K for a course. This is just out of reach for me.
Where are you located?
The_War_Wagon
09-10-19, 22:01
Don't forget - this section of M4C STILL exists!
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?128-Regional-Training-Groups
Ask them what they want. A pistol? A rifle? A shotgun?
If it’s a pistol- M&P or Glock.
Rifle- 6920 for an AR or a 10/22 for a smaller semi or a 700 for a bolty
Shotgun- 590 or 870
Some magazines and some ammo. Sling or holster. A good case. A good cleaning kit and bore snake.
Shoot it.
Let them evolve from there naturally, or not, up to them.
Keep it simple.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-11-19, 03:49
This is basically what I did with a friend who likes to shoot a little but wasnt a real gun guy. He went a head and bought an AR on his own, one I wouldnt have recommended, but I didnt say anything...didnt want to dampen his budding enthusiasm. Steered him to a PA budget RDS to get him started and some good 10 rounders (CA.). I think I'm going to gift him some even better mags if you know what I mean. He's probably got $900 into it all and his rig is just fine with him at this point.
If only we bought 1 'bad' AR before finding 'the way' and getting good ones... We all have dated that one chick that makes us cringe and I have an Oly Arms AR as my first kit rifle... Maybe some of us were born with a Colt in our gun safe, the rest of us had to learn.
Diamondback
09-11-19, 04:03
If only we bought 1 'bad' AR before finding 'the way' and getting good ones... We all have dated that one chick that makes us cringe and I have an Oly Arms AR as my first kit rifle... Maybe some of us were born with a Colt in our gun safe, the rest of us had to learn.
Isn't there a saying about how we only build good judgement through experience, and we only build experience through surviving the consequences of bad judgement?
I've actually been starting to work on a piece for one of the politics sites I sometimes write for about "panic-proof prepping, practical stockpiling one case of ammo at a time" which ties into this and it might be interesting if we all could pool resources and spitball ideas about building up household stores, including education/training, on a budget of about say $200 a month.
It's hard sometimes to explain that to people, they need a first hand experience to understand just how crappy a rifle they get trying to save nickles and dimes along the way. Optics are the same way, but you have to prove it to people all the time.
I don't talk to many people about guns anymore, but when I do I say "This is what I have, this is why I bought it."
Explaining subtle nuances? You might as well talk to the dog.
After fixing and replacing $200 plus parts on that POS Smith Sport whatever. The kid still didn't get it. He said something like... "not a bad gun" for whatever price he paid. Oh well.
Evidently there is more to being a cop than knowing how to shoot.
When I first started taking training... CCW, intermediate, advanced, etc.... I was already a very experienced shooter, but needed some structured training in areas other than marksmanship.
I remember some lady seeing my marksmanship and telling me I should be a cop. I laughed about it later... Like all you had to do as a cop was show up and shoot. :D
When I first started taking training... CCW, intermediate, advanced, etc.... I was already a very experienced shooter, but needed some structured training in areas other than marksmanship.
I remember some lady seeing my marksmanship and telling me I should be a cop. I laughed about it later... Like all you had to do as a cop was show up and shoot. :D
Right. People do that with military too.
“You like guns, you should join the mil.”
How about I do something else and shoot guns for a hobby.
Dr. Bullseye
09-11-19, 12:13
There are virtually hundreds of good instructors who don't have a name.
Generally, I kind of turned my nose up at NRA Instructors until I retired and felt I needed to maintain instructor credentials, look here and see if something fits you:
https://firearmtraining.nra.org/student-courses/
Another thing you might do is go to a local deputy/patrolman/trooper you know and ask them who is the local guy to go to.
Show up at competitions, ask the RO's.
You can find someone who will be able to st you right, if you look.
No. I am not going for instruction. I hit what I am shooting at just fine and I work on what my weaknesses are. The negatives outweigh the positives as far as I am concerned, as I have explained. Frankly, I am sick and tired of people recommending "instruction"as a cure for everything. Did Daniel Boone attend a training school? The standard answer here for any issue seems to be a Gucci gun, an Aimpoint, and instruction. I am not going for any of those.
Daniel Boone? Seriously? Yea he probably had training from day one. It was called life. Had to know how to shoot, hunt, fish, trap, etc... But who gives a shit about him. And I don't remember Glock and Colt being "Gucci". Hell I buy mine police used
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-11-19, 13:03
Right. People do that with military too.
“You like guns, you should join the mil.”
How about I do something else and shoot guns for a hobby.
Free ammo and targets? ��
I’d say look at it over a 24 month, three calendar year time frame. Glock now. Buy 200 rounds a month, shoot 100. Next spring buy a BCM AR. Same thing with 556 ammo. Spring 2021, look at buying an optic for the AR, and or a second glock. Continue ammo.
You’d have a Glock and 600 rounds, an AR and 1200rounds and a scope, or a second Glock, as a spare or special CCW version. Call the guns Birthday presents and the ammo is less than dinner out once for a family of four per month.
That and find a monthly local competition that you can make 4-6 times a year.
That’s nothing crazy. Not like you are finding random lowers in drawers you don’t remember buying, cases of 9mm of unknown origin, or unmarked mags that you can’t remember which gun they were for.
ETA; my buy plan with MountianRavens specifics, outside of maybe the x300 for the handgun- that is really nice, but pretty spendy.
This makes a lot of sense to me.
Regarding the need for instruction, or certain people's confidence in thinking it serves no purpose or they don't need it for any of the plethora of reasons they come up with- a wise man I met once had a saying regarding that;
"You don't know what you don't know."
On topic, for the OP, here's an article from long ago that may help any interested parties;
http://andysarmory.blogspot.com/2017/10/opinion-building-long-term-logistical.html
I'm going through this exact same thing with my BIL right now, and he's doctor with substantial income.
I had a buddy over recently and he was talking about how he thinks he may want an AR because of all the talk in the news. I was showing him one of mine and he asked how many magazines I had for it. When I answered he looked at me like I had said something in a foreign language. He then asked how much the red dot (T2) cost. When I answered he kind of chuckled, shook his head and handed the gun back to me.
I appreciate the whole "buy a 6920, Aimpoint, 20 Pmags, and a few cases of M193" but that just isn't something that a non gun guy is going to digest.
The Glock 19, mags, holster, ammo, is smart and an easy answer. At the same time the news cycle has everybody thinking they should buy an AR.
Good advice. Even at a bare minimum, a proficient non-pro shooter can see things a new shooter is doing wrong and make corrections, like looking down the barrel to see if it's loaded. Seriously.
There are virtually hundreds of good instructors who don't have a name.
Generally, I kind of turned my nose up at NRA Instructors until I retired and felt I needed to maintain instructor credentials, look here and see if something fits you:
https://firearmtraining.nra.org/student-courses/
Another thing you might do is go to a local deputy/patrolman/trooper you know and ask them who is the local guy to go to.
Show up at competitions, ask the RO's.
You can find someone who will be able to st you right, if you look.
The standard answer here for any issue seems to be a Gucci gun, an Aimpoint, and instruction. I am not going for any of those.
LOL, pretty much agree with that assessment. I always chuckle when I read something along the lines of 'I need to attend a high round count carbine class'. But, I also have to admit that even though I've been to training all over the place, if it is convenient, I'm always up for a course. It's fun, plus, I always pickup something.
I was just trying to offer some advice based on your earlier statement: I would love to take a week, drive up to Thunder Ranch, and lay down 3K for a course. This is just out of reach for me.
It's all good.
Dr. Bullseye
09-11-19, 15:06
LOL, pretty much agree with that assessment. I always chuckle when I read something along the lines of 'I need to attend a high round count carbine class'. But, I also have to admit that even though I've been to training all over the place, if it is convenient, I'm always up for a course. It's fun, plus, I always pickup something.
I was just trying to offer some advice based on your earlier statement: I would love to take a week, drive up to Thunder Ranch, and lay down 3K for a course. This is just out of reach for me.
It's all good.
And after my pissy rant, I would still like to take a week and a course at Thunder Ranch. But it is not going to happen. Sorry, again, for the pissy response.
And after my pissy rant, I would still like to take a week and a course at Thunder Ranch. But it is not going to happen. Sorry, again, for the pissy response.
No need to apologize, your post made your point clear, and as I noted, a lot truth in the part I quoted. I just wanted you to know why I posted.
In fairness, this IS a thread about advice for those who are not serious about shooting. I think some boxes were checked.
Training?
Go play airsoft with some experienced players. You think you know "how to shoot?" You're going to learn some humility on the two-way shooting range.
Why does everyone want to turn casual people into hardened gunfighters?
That’s a huge turn off.
The OP asked “Hey what’s a good gun suggestion for a guy who isn’t really into guns and just wants something for the house and maybe to hit the range every so often?”
And people are giving loadouts and suggestions to go to Thunder Ranch blah blah blah.
Lol no. An NRA class is actually good advice. He will learn how to load, unload, get a good base line on weapons handling, and feel competent in weapons safety. That is the key. Nobody wants something they think will just go off in their face.
Replace the OP with “I know a guy who wants a car and has never driven. What should he get?” And you wouldn’t say “He needs a Ferrari/Porsche/Mustang Cobra”. A Honda Accord. Duh.
“I know a guy who wants to do light snorkeling. What should he get?”
He needs a Draeger and Nitrox!!! Come on.....
Also lol at being a police because you like guns
If you like listening to people’s sob stories and writing reports all day maybe. Maybe.
A Glock is fine. Maybe a decent AR and a few magazines if he really wants one.
Sheesh
grizzlyblake
09-12-19, 15:09
Yeah I'm thinking a Glock 19 and maybe a Mossberg 500 with a few boxes of 00B in the closet.
The big loadout stuff is a bit funny, though I may just not take some of that stuff seriously.
I have guys working utility line stuff down around Vine City and maybe a couple might have a pistol in the truck. I feel like some guys here wouldn't step into that role without body armor and all.
Really, the most practical thing I can think of is to have a good G19 to carry and then another at home in case you need to ditch the first one or it gets taken as evidence.
WickedWillis
09-12-19, 15:27
Yeah I'm thinking a Glock 19 and maybe a Mossberg 500 with a few boxes of 00B in the closet.
The big loadout stuff is a bit funny, though I may just not take some of that stuff seriously.
I have guys working utility line stuff down around Vine City and maybe a couple might have a pistol in the truck. I feel like some guys here wouldn't step into that role without body armor and all.
Really, the most practical thing I can think of is to have a good G19 to carry and then another at home in case you need to ditch the first one or it gets taken as evidence.
AR > Shotty for home defense IMO.
00 buck tends to penetrate a tad worse than a rifle when it comes to drywall and framing. Hopefully you'll never have to use anything though in an HD situation though.
Diamondback
09-12-19, 16:46
Why does everyone want to turn casual people into hardened gunfighters?
That’s a huge turn off.
The OP asked “Hey what’s a good gun suggestion for a guy who isn’t really into guns and just wants something for the house and maybe to hit the range every so often?”
And people are giving loadouts and suggestions to go to Thunder Ranch blah blah blah.
Lol no. An NRA class is actually good advice. He will learn how to load, unload, get a good base line on weapons handling, and feel competent in weapons safety. That is the key. Nobody wants something they think will just go off in their face.
Replace the OP with “I know a guy who wants a car and has never driven. What should he get?” And you wouldn’t say “He needs a Ferrari/Porsche/Mustang Cobra”. A Honda Accord. Duh.
“I know a guy who wants to do light snorkeling. What should he get?”
He needs a Draeger and Nitrox!!! Come on.....
Also lol at being a police because you like guns
If you like listening to people’s sob stories and writing reports all day maybe. Maybe.
A Glock is fine. Maybe a decent AR and a few magazines if he really wants one.
Sheesh
Excellent points, a building-blocks "start with basics and then build out as situation warrants" has usually worked better with normies than trying to go from zero straight to Wyatt Earp in my modest experience--and even Earp himself used to counsel those who sought his secrets to focus on getting the basics right through large amounts of repetition. :)
Training?
Go play airsoft with some experienced players. You think you know "how to shoot?" You're going to learn some humility on the two-way shooting range.
Airsoft is like a watergun fight where people do things that they would never do in real life against real guns.
Also, there is very little carryover between airsoft and real firearms in terms or recoil control.
Diamondback
09-12-19, 20:44
Airsoft is like a watergun fight where people do things that they would never do in real life against real guns.
Also, there is very little carryover between airsoft and real firearms in terms or recoil control.
So the challenge is to make getting hit hurt... like every time you get hit you have to buy a beer for EVERYBODY. Just spitballing an idea...
Airsoft is like a watergun fight where people do things that they would never do in real life against real guns.
Also, there is very little carryover between airsoft and real firearms in terms or recoil control.
There's some truth in all this. But you learn things, when other people are trying to shoot you, that you'd never learn on a firing line or even a carbine course.
Airsoft is like a watergun fight where people do things that they would never do in real life against real guns.
Also, there is very little carryover between airsoft and real firearms in terms or recoil control.
Interesting
https://www.instagram.com/tv/B2VTAFcnz3Z/?igshid=1bu16ork4vtmb
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Interesting
https://www.instagram.com/tv/B2VTAFcnz3Z/?igshid=1bu16ork4vtmb
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Let's ass-u-me that the Haley family may do airsoft a little differently than Zeb and Jethro from down the holler a lil ways. Or, on the other hand, maybe they just do it for fun, not ninja training.
Yes, you can do some degree of useful force-on-force with paintball, but the average joe isn't likely to.
Let's ass-u-me that the Haley family may do airsoft a little differently than Zeb and Jethro from down the holler a lil ways. Or, on the other hand, maybe they just do it for fun, not ninja training.
Yes, you can do some degree of useful force-on-force with paintball, but the average joe isn't likely to.
This is true no doubt.
Admittedly some of the best UoF and team training I’ve gone through used simunitions and to a lesser extent the shock vest stuff (like it works but eh). Point being “assuming” your partnered up with skill oriented folks a lot can be gleamed from running around with gas charged BB shooters.
So to simply right off airsoft as some [emoji304] LARPing masturbation is short sighted imo under some circumstances.
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I think Airsoft is perfect as a simulation tool for curated FoF scenarios/drills where the goal is working a defined skill. Running around playing tag is fun but ultimately gamed out even when simunitions are used.
Keeping the goal short and defined helps to keep focus. "Huckleberry" close contact reaction drills are very short and perfect for Airsoft. Wear face pro though [emoji39]
Dennis.
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To get back on track, good advice to new shooters was "Just get a Colt 6920."
Tomorrow if somebody asked, I suppose I'd tell them to take a look at BCM or LMT.
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