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I didn't see a 9/11 anniversary post, so here's mine. This is the best vid i have seen that summarizes what happened on a prior 9/11 anniversary that also needs to not be forgotten and needs to be re opened yesterday so that the guilty parties should pay. Really good vid I thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKsiDV1LuJA
This pilot took off fully intending to die by ramming her plane into flight 93 because her plane had no weapons onboard. An amazing story i had not heard:
https://tribunist.com/military/this-f-16-pilot-was-ready-to-give-her-life-on-911-now-shes-telling-her-incredible-story/
titsonritz
09-11-19, 18:16
This pilot took off fully intending to die by ramming her plane into flight 93 because her plane had no weapons onboard. An amazing story i had not heard:
https://tribunist.com/military/this-f-16-pilot-was-ready-to-give-her-life-on-911-now-shes-telling-her-incredible-story/
I wonder if that is how she got her call sign.
I personally don't feel we've achieved any real justice for either of the events. Sure Bin Laden is dead but we did nothing to the country that knowingly harbored him.
I don't feel we've accomplished anything meaningful in Afghanistan and what was done usually came with great additional costs.
We moved the playing ground to Iraq and after a huge investment of lives and money we've lost most of the gains we made.
So many mistakes, so many missed opportunities. About the only thing that really changed is we gave up some of our freedoms and to a large extent made muslims a "protected class."
Swear to god if we fought WWII today kids would be learning Japanese so that they could better understand how the Japanese feel and there would be a German / American Bund in every major city.
I personally don't feel we've achieved any real justice for either of the events. Sure Bin Laden is dead but we did nothing to the country that knowingly harbored him.
I don't feel we've accomplished anything meaningful in Afghanistan and what was done usually came with great additional costs.
We moved the playing ground to Iraq and after a huge investment of lives and money we've lost most of the gains we made.
So many mistakes, so many missed opportunities. About the only thing that really changed is we gave up some of our freedoms and to a large extent made muslims a "protected class."
Swear to god if we fought WWII today kids would be learning Japanese so that they could better understand how the Japanese feel and there would be a German / American Bund in every major city.
Basically this. Sad really. Atleast we’re getting flavored ECigs banned.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/f86259630ef387831db0cfaf219387e0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/0a91d468334ac7322645bfdfd5ecefc0.jpg
All aside the Trade Center memorial in NYC is very well done imo.
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Basically this. Sad really. Atleast we’re getting flavored ECigs banned.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/f86259630ef387831db0cfaf219387e0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/0a91d468334ac7322645bfdfd5ecefc0.jpg
All aside the Trade Center memorial in NYC is very well done imo.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe memorial should have been a giant middle finger shapped office building. Built facing Riyadh.
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Basically this. Sad really. Atleast we’re getting flavored ECigs banned.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/f86259630ef387831db0cfaf219387e0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/0a91d468334ac7322645bfdfd5ecefc0.jpg
All aside the Trade Center memorial in NYC is very well done imo.
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While most of his points aren’t wrong, more often than not that stuff all seems to be brought up by pussies who never went to Afghanistan. So being a douche about it and having no real world credibility means that anything he says is worthless. I don’t know who that is, maybe he’s done several trips over there but even if so, the last part is d-baggy AF. First of all, WTF is a boomer meme about 9/11? Secondly, being a fat ass and eating at McDonalds until it gives you heart disease is a choice. Most people that morning didn’t have a choice, except to jump instead of being burned alive. Comparing the two is ****ing retarded.
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Outlander Systems
09-11-19, 19:38
This country committed suicide. Thanks, mostly, to boomers.
Trillions of dollars in debt and a culture happy to flush its rights down the toilet. We really showed those terrorists, didn’t we?
:rolleyes:
While most of his points aren’t wrong, more often than not that stuff all seems to be brought up by pussies who never went to Afghanistan. So being a douche about it and having no real world credibility means that anything he says is worthless. I don’t know who that is, maybe he’s done several trips over there but even if so, the last part is d-baggy AF. First of all, WTF is a boomer meme about 9/11? Secondly, being a fat ass and eating at McDonalds until it gives you heart disease is a choice. Most people that morning didn’t have a choice, except to jump instead of being burned alive. Comparing the two is ****ing retarded.
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This country committed suicide. Thanks, mostly, to boomers.
Trillions of dollars in debt and a culture happy to flush its rights down the toilet. We really showed those terrorists, didn’t we?
:rolleyes:
Take a knee and inject your Prozium
But seriously though I don’t think we can objectively say America post 9/11 is better than pre 9/11 America sadly.
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Outlander Systems
09-11-19, 20:02
It should be remembered as a historical marker insofar as delineating the singular point whereby we can determine that this country and culture started circling the drain.
Take a knee and inject your Prozium
But seriously though I don’t think we can objectively say America post 9/11 is better than pre 9/11 America sadly.
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This country committed suicide. Thanks, mostly, to boomers.
Trillions of dollars in debt and a culture happy to flush its rights down the toilet. We really showed those terrorists, didn’t we?
:rolleyes:
Take a knee and inject your Prozium
But seriously though I don’t think we can objectively say America post 9/11 is better than pre 9/11 America sadly.
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I didn’t say anything about the bigger picture of GWOT and how it’s changed our country. I asked what a boomer #neverforget meme is, because it sounds like he’s just talking shit about people sharing remembrance posts on social media. And I pointed out the fact that comparing the death toll of 9/11 to people dying of heart disease, which he related to McDonalds, is stupid AF.
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Basically this. Sad really. Atleast we’re getting flavored ECigs banned.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/f86259630ef387831db0cfaf219387e0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190911/0a91d468334ac7322645bfdfd5ecefc0.jpg
All aside the Trade Center memorial in NYC is very well done imo.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I was fine until he equated being a victim of terrorism with death by natural selection via McDonalds. Everyone is going to die and if it's french fries that get me, I don't blame the french. And that a big difference between a mostly natural cause and being on a plane flown into a building or being in a building that had a plane flown into it.
As for the memorial, I know I'm cynical but I see a hole in the ground. I want to see something built from the bones of our dead enemies...all of them. It's been almost 20 years and I'm still not ok with it. I know it's wrong and would have resulted in lots of collateral damage including innocent people who had nothing to do with it and couldn't have prevented it if they tried, but if we went off the rails and went tactical nukes on selected sites I don't think it would have been much more wrong than what we actually did.
We could have just called it conversion by microSieverts.
KSM (khalid sheik mohamed/yeah I probably butchered his name, but I'm over it) is still not dead. He's eating food we paid for, living rent free and waiting for his trial. Fry the savage and bury him with 20 lb of rotten pork. That's why I was glad they put the bullets into Osama's head instead of taking him prisoner. The pig would still be alive today and be their hero. The SEALS did it right, fill him up with lead and dump him in the water.
KSM should have suffered the same.
9/11 was a resounding victory.
OBL stated he wanted to change Americans’ way of life and he certainly did.
PATRIOT ACT Safely still in effect
Privacy a quaint relic
Forever Wars
A schism within America that has only grown deeper
Radical ideas being forwarded by elected officials that would have been considered extreme for the even the most thoroughly Liberal politician 20 years ago.
A distinct loss of liberty that has been noticeable.
And people chomping at the bit to start another Cold War
Dig this: 20 years ago....
The future looked pretty bright
Vladimir Putin’s Russia was seriously considering joining NATO
Western Europe didn’t have all these problems
The migrant crisis was nothing that it is now
China was kept at a distance but in check despite the payola.
Cancel Culture didn’t exist
Race relations were the most amiable they’d ever been in 50 years.
Air Travel was easy.
We had essentially world peace.
And......here we are.
18 years. Seems like yesterday.
I won’t pretend to know the woulda shoulda coulda but I do know this....
I wish we had been more adult about it. I wish we didn’t go all Buenos Aires (The only good bug is a dead bug). I wish we’d collectively took a step back and weighed the options better.
I wish we’d rebuilt the Twin Towers to the exact same specs as if to say “We can rebuild. We are not changing for you or anyone else”
I wish we didn’t take the bait. I wish people hadn’t capitalized on the nation’s emotional scarring.
And most of all, I wish the young man or woman turning 18 today could have known what September 10, 2001 felt like. It was a Monday. No cares in the world. The biggest moral issue was stem cell research. You had Cable News that didn’t have constant news tickers scrolling by and nothing devolved into a shouting match. People could disagree with a smile.
Gas was just under a dollar a gallon.
You were more free to find yourself and travel. You could speak your mind and the worst that could happen was someone saying “I think you’re full of shit but okay”. No losing a job. No harassment. No being called a Nazi.
You’d have been shocked that is was the Liberal Left who were telling the dirty jokes with no limits. Nobody got mad, people just laughed it off.
There were real opportunities.
It was a positive and optimistic time. It wasn’t so tacky as a presumption of being like the 80s or 90s. Those days were thankfully gone. We had the future. We were the future. We were reaching people. We were doing things. We didn’t want a rehash of someone else’s time. It was our own.
And it was stolen from us.
Wish you could have been there. Because in 18 more years these will be the Good ol’ days.
Some of you reading this now will not be here to see that.
And perhaps that may be more blessing than curse.
But my advice to anyone would be to enjoy what you have now and to never forget.
And not in some cheap tragedy porn, crisis fetishizing. But never forget 9-10-2001. That last free day of the last free Americans.
Never forget what was taken from you. But also accept that you simply aren’t going to get it back.
Sorry we ripped you off. We just.....got carried away. We thought it was Pearl Harbor and after 5 years of kicking someone’s ass in a righteous war; we’d have a Post-War boom where everyone appreciated what we had more than ever had before. We were going to put it behind us on focus on living.
Didn’t work out thst way.
Sorry ‘bout that.
It should be remembered as a historical marker insofar as delineating the singular point whereby we can determine that this country and culture started circling the drain.
All generations have such a singular point. According to Hannity and Lynne Cheney, it was a weekend in the summer of '69. They claimed that America was a paradise (ed. Note: if you were white) where people didn't lock their doors at night, where there was no crime, drugs, unwanted pregnancy, or any other such ills. And then one weekend half a million hippies converged on Max Yasgur's farm, and when it was over, they fanned out over the countryside, spreading depravity in their wake. I am not making this up: those two did indeed broadcast this curious theory over the airwaves one afternoon about 10 or 12 years ago.
Oh, by the way: Can you imagine the howling if Obama had invited Taliban terrorists to US soil for a palaver? On the week of 9-11? They'd be screaming "Traitor . . . Muslim . . . . etc" as loud as they could.
If your takeaway from the GWOT is that muslims would be moderated if only we forced more "democracy" on them... maybe you should be paying attention more and bitching about boomers less.
9/11 was a resounding victory.
OBL stated he wanted to change Americans’ way of life and he certainly did.
PATRIOT ACT Safely still in effect
Privacy a quaint relic
Forever Wars
A schism within America that has only grown deeper
Radical ideas being forwarded by elected officials that would have been considered extreme for the even the most thoroughly Liberal politician 20 years ago.
A distinct loss of liberty that has been noticeable.
And people chomping at the bit to start another Cold War
Dig this: 20 years ago....
The future looked pretty bright
Vladimir Putin’s Russia was seriously considering joining NATO
Western Europe didn’t have all these problems
The migrant crisis was nothing that it is now
China was kept at a distance but in check despite the payola.
Cancel Culture didn’t exist
Race relations were the most amiable they’d ever been in 50 years.
Air Travel was easy.
We had essentially world peace.
And......here we are.
18 years. Seems like yesterday.
I won’t pretend to know the woulda shoulda coulda but I do know this....
I wish we had been more adult about it. I wish we didn’t go all Buenos Aires (The only good bug is a dead bug). I wish we’d collectively took a step back and weighed the options better.
I wish we’d rebuilt the Twin Towers to the exact same specs as if to say “We can rebuild. We are not changing for you or anyone else”
I wish we didn’t take the bait. I wish people hadn’t capitalized on the nation’s emotional scarring.
And most of all, I wish the young man or woman turning 18 today could have known what September 10, 2001 felt like. It was a Monday. No cares in the world. The biggest moral issue was stem cell research. You had Cable News that didn’t have constant news tickers scrolling by and nothing devolved into a shouting match. People could disagree with a smile.
Gas was just under a dollar a gallon.
You were more free to find yourself and travel. You could speak your mind and the worst that could happen was someone saying “I think you’re full of shit but okay”. No losing a job. No harassment. No being called a Nazi.
You’d have been shocked that is was the Liberal Left who were telling the dirty jokes with no limits. Nobody got mad, people just laughed it off.
There were real opportunities.
It was a positive and optimistic time. It wasn’t so tacky as a presumption of being like the 80s or 90s. Those days were thankfully gone. We had the future. We were the future. We were reaching people. We were doing things. We didn’t want a rehash of someone else’s time. It was our own.
And it was stolen from us.
Wish you could have been there. Because in 18 more years these will be the Good ol’ days.
Some of you reading this now will not be here to see that.
And perhaps that may be more blessing than curse.
But my advice to anyone would be to enjoy what you have now and to never forget.
And not in some cheap tragedy porn, crisis fetishizing. But never forget 9-10-2001. That last free day of the last free Americans.
Never forget what was taken from you. But also accept that you simply aren’t going to get it back.
Sorry we ripped you off. We just.....got carried away. We thought it was Pearl Harbor and after 5 years of kicking someone’s ass in a righteous war; we’d have a Post-War boom where everyone appreciated what we had more than ever had before. We were going to put it behind us on focus on living.
Didn’t work out thst way.
Sorry ‘bout that.
Needed to be said. But as much as we got robbed, at least "we" didn't have to jump out of a burning building because it seemed like the best option.
The worst thing of all is if our government worked the way it was supposed to, it might have all been preventable. If our government put the same effort they invested into Ruby Ridge and Waco, these guys might never have made it onto the plane.
18 years. Seems like yesterday.
I won’t pretend to know the woulda shoulda coulda but I do know this....
---------
But my advice to anyone would be to enjoy what you have now and to never forget.
And not in some cheap tragedy porn, crisis fetishizing. But never forget 9-10-2001. That last free day of the last free Americans.
Never forget what was taken from you. But also accept that you simply aren’t going to get it back.
Sorry we ripped you off. We just.....got carried away. We thought it was Pearl Harbor and after 5 years of kicking someone’s ass in a righteous war; we’d have a Post-War boom where everyone appreciated what we had more than ever had before. We were going to put it behind us on focus on living.
Didn’t work out thst way.
Sorry ‘bout that.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/465/425/3fd.jpg
vicious_cb
09-12-19, 02:26
We should also never forget the retards that say stupid shit on or about 9/11. These people cant help but make anti-American Freudian slips. They can do far more damage to America than a bunch of stone age muslims hiding in caves in with AKs and you dont need to look far to find them.
https://nonperele.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/466173/1568215818-91.jpg
https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/Wa_KMdpXjHSfgT_YXVZo8w--~B/aD03NTY7dz0xNDA0O3NtPTE7YXBwaWQ9eXRhY2h5b24-/https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/5caf7c822300008903ea1c99.jpeg
All generations have such a singular point. According to Hannity and Lynne Cheney, it was a weekend in the summer of '69. They claimed that America was a paradise (ed. Note: if you were white) where people didn't lock their doors at night, where there was no crime, drugs, unwanted pregnancy, or any other such ills. And then one weekend half a million hippies converged on Max Yasgur's farm, and when it was over, they fanned out over the countryside, spreading depravity in their wake. I am not making this up: those two did indeed broadcast this curious theory over the airwaves one afternoon about 10 or 12 years ago.
Oh, by the way: Can you imagine the howling if Obama had invited Taliban terrorists to US soil for a palaver? On the week of 9-11? They'd be screaming "Traitor . . . Muslim . . . . etc" as loud as they could.
You know, not much in this post I find fault with.
9/11 was a tragedy. We should always remember. We were attacked. It was a tragedy.
But, we let it take control of our lives, giving up freedoms we shouldn't have ever been asked to give up.
Admitting that doesn't do a disservice to those who died that day.
Outlander Systems
09-12-19, 05:05
This.
You know, not much in this post I find fault with.
9/11 was a tragedy. We should always remember. We were attacked. It was a tragedy.
But, we let it take control of our lives, giving up freedoms we shouldn't have ever been asked to give up.
Admitting that doesn't do a disservice to those who died that day.
I was fine until he equated being a victim of terrorism with death by natural selection via McDonalds. Everyone is going to die and if it's french fries that get me, I don't blame the french. And that a big difference between a mostly natural cause and being on a plane flown into a building or being in a building that had a plane flown into it.
As for the memorial, I know I'm cynical but I see a hole in the ground. I want to see something built from the bones of our dead enemies...all of them. It's been almost 20 years and I'm still not ok with it. I know it's wrong and would have resulted in lots of collateral damage including innocent people who had nothing to do with it and couldn't have prevented it if they tried, but if we went off the rails and went tactical nukes on selected sites I don't think it would have been much more wrong than what we actually did.
We could have just called it conversion by microSieverts.
That last time someone attacked us and killed approx 3k people, we set the world on fire paying them back in spades and making it clear to the rest of the world, attacking the US will not end well for you and your country will be decimated to its core. That message was not sent post 9/11 and of course had we not ignore the many multiple smaller attacks from the very same group, allowing them to probe our will, etc, it would never have happened. I'm still not OK with it in large part due to knowing we had multiple warnings, dead people, and ability to prevent it had we not had spineless worthless fu#% at the helm. A fleet of cruise missiles should have hit the Saudi intel buildings and palaces too on 9/12 for starters.
And lets not even get into how much resources, etc were red directed going into Iraq.
18 years later, I'm not even close to OK with any of it.
A fleet of cruise missiles should have hit the Saudi intel buildings and palaces too on 9/12 for starters.
And lets not even get into how much resources, etc were red directed going into Iraq.
18 years later, I'm not even close to OK with any of it.
Spot on. I remember reading the 9/11 report that was released a few years back and wondering why the hell Saudi Arabia can still be found on a map.
Absolutely infuriating.
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Spot on. I remember reading the 9/11 report that was released a few years back and wondering why the hell Saudi Arabia can still be found on a map.
Absolutely infuriating.
Money, oil, oil $. That and they're the enemy of our enemies, but with friends like that...
That's also why we have a tenuous moral standing with the rest of the world, we lecture X country for it's lack of Human Rights, while ignoring one of the worse offenders. Not that everyone else does not do the same thing, but we also claim to stand out above the rest.
While I get the geo political aspects of the situation and relationship, there's a line and they crossed it by miles and totally got away with it.
And hustling off OBLs family under US protection back to Saudi, vs hold them all in fed detention until one of the M=fers told us where to find him, make sure they were working with us to find him etc, etc,
Spot on. I remember reading the 9/11 report that was released a few years back and wondering why the hell Saudi Arabia can still be found on a map.
Absolutely infuriating.
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After 9/11 we should have made certain countries in the ME an uninhabitable glass parking lot.
I was fine until he equated being a victim of terrorism with death by natural selection via McDonalds. Everyone is going to die and if it's french fries that get me, I don't blame the french. And that a big difference between a mostly natural cause and being on a plane flown into a building or being in a building that had a plane flown into it.
As for the memorial, I know I'm cynical but I see a hole in the ground. I want to see something built from the bones of our dead enemies...all of them. It's been almost 20 years and I'm still not ok with it. I know it's wrong and would have resulted in lots of collateral damage including innocent people who had nothing to do with it and couldn't have prevented it if they tried, but if we went off the rails and went tactical nukes on selected sites I don't think it would have been much more wrong than what we actually did.
We could have just called it conversion by microSieverts.
Well, I mean if we’re being purely objective any loss of innocent life via means that are/were otherwise preventable is always a tragedy.
More people die individually at the hands of drunk drivers, texters, blunt objects, venomous animals, and probably even Darwin Award stupidity annually then are killed by “assault weapons” but god forbid you try to draw comparisons because, Muh guns are scary.
9/11 was a tragedy for epic proportions and should be remembered as such. I just wish folks gave a damn about some things that actually matter with the same fervor as things that don’t actually matter or atleast are statistically insignificant.
As for the Middle East we should have spent 6 months laying waste to anyone and everything. Full on scorched earth.
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Spot on. I remember reading the 9/11 report that was released a few years back and wondering why the hell Saudi Arabia can still be found on a map.
Absolutely infuriating.
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Which report?
And hustling off OBLs family under US protection back to Saudi, vs hold them all in fed detention until one of the M=fers told us where to find him, make sure they were working with us to find him etc, etc,
You do know he attacked his own family right. I doubt any one of them knew where he was at. Saudi intelligence might have known, but the Bin Ladens were living in the US for a reason.
You do know he attacked his own family right. I doubt any one of them knew where he was at. Saudi intelligence might have known, but the Bin Ladens were living in the US for a reason.
I did not. When/where did that happen? I know they claimed to have totally disconnected from him and he them, but I was not aware of any physical attacks. Still not our job to protect his family due their connections.
Belmont31R
09-13-19, 21:06
Iraq was not a lost cause. Reading this thread there's a profound lack of Obama blame for how the two wars turned out. We had a chance in Iraq and Obama made sure it turned into a shitshow. Biden got sent to Iraq to be the fall guy for not signing a SOFA so Obama could say he got us out even though we never left. Watching some of the Frontline doc's about Mosul and Northern Iraq I'd still have no problem going and fighting for those people. I was in Baghdad in 2004 and 2005-2006 when things were going south and I get pissed thinking those people weren't good people for the most part who just wanted to live their own lives how they saw fit. Part of my duties in 2005-2006 was as an advisor to an Iraqi interrogation facility so I got to see all the ****s brought in around the Baghdad area the Iraqi's picked up. Saddam was hung about 100M from where I slept for months, and the Iraqi's I worked with were part of his trial.
I never went to Afghanistan but from what Ive seen that's way more of a cluster**** than Iraq. I actually don't blame the Taliban. The Taliban are not a singular unit and one valley to the next can have radically opposing alliances. As a vet all I can say is that Im extremely proud of the many people who have stepped up there and there's no shortage of courage I still think about to this day. Just got done listening to the audiobook of Chosen Few. Again **** Obama, Bush, and the DOD for not doing their best to support boots on the ground. We had the Taliban solidly defeated in 2002 and 2003 but by then Iraq was the focus. Rumsfeld was horrible. Brenner was horrible for Iraq. Most of this was not a failure of military capability or lack of willingness on the ground to engage the ememy. Everyone was operating with guidance from DOD and DOS and the WH who held back mil ops to where we were combat ineffective. You can watch combat ops from Afghanistan from the Obama era where troops in contact can't even get air support without an hour's worth of red tape and O3's have to get permission from senior O's to authorize every strike.
I have zero qualms about helping people who want to be free and live life as they see fit. ISIS could have been cured when Obama was still in office if he dumped arms to the Kurds and put ODA's in N Iraq and the IA before they got to Mosul.
I did not. When/where did that happen? I know they claimed to have totally disconnected from him and he them, but I was not aware of any physical attacks. Still not our job to protect his family due their connections.
The Bin Laden's are connected to the Saudi Royal family which has also been subject to attacks. Basically the Taliban / Al Quida / Bin Laden would love to see them all die on fire. But it's a strange dynamic. The Saudi Royal family is also involved in promoting Wahhabi and according to some reports complicit in the 9-11 attacks. But because they play footsie with the US they are a target of the extremists.
I'm sure you are aware of the Truman accord and how the US supports the security of the Saudi royal family when hardliners would prefer a pure Islamic theocracy. And in return they are supposed to keep a lid on the radicals and provide us favorable oil prices, of course they haven't exactly been holding up their end of that deal since the 1970s.
It's all a mess where our enemies are technically allies and while parts of the Royal family are fighting terrorism other parts are funding and supporting terrorism all the while also being targeted by the same terrorists from time to time. The important thing is the Saudi Royal family and the Bin Laden's are a larger group of people than the Brady Bunch with many divergent interests.
Despite that complexity, I'd have been good with a low yield nuke strike on Riyadh once we confirmed the nationality of the 19 hijackers. Several areas of Yemen as well.
Iraq was not a lost cause. Reading this thread there's a profound lack of Obama blame for how the two wars turned out.
Honestly the fault lies with Bush (41) for failing to direct the UN to mediate the Iraq / Kuwait oil dispute and then suggesting to Saddam that he would be permitted to resolve the issue and then sorta back dooring him when he invaded Kuwait.
Now make no mistake, Saddam is a vicious, sadistic dictator but so was the Shah of Iran and we supported him as well. More importantly Saddam presided over the closest thing to a modern, secular arab state that has ever existed in the region and that is why Reagan spent years cultivating the alliance.
Then Bush (43) responded to a potential threat of Iraq providing chemical weapons to terrorists groups and rather than simply eliminate Iraqs ability to threaten the US, Bush decided to "fix Iraq" while he was there and it was already as stable and democractic as it was going to get. If the Iraqis wanted western democracy they could have had it a 1,000 years ago.
Bush should have simply eliminated the top Ba'th party leadership, moved the middlemen to the top and told them don't make us come back here again.
I'm no fan of Obama but quite honestly he inherited that shit show and looking at it realized we weren't doing anything that was going to solve the problem so he did the right thing and pulled our guys out. Obama of course did many things to make it worse, especially in Syria, but much like Nixon he at least got us out of there considering we had no end game plan.
Belmont31R
09-13-19, 21:34
Honestly the fault lies with Bush (41) for failing to direct the UN to mediate the Iraq / Kuwait oil dispute and then suggesting to Saddam that he would be permitted to resolve the issue and then sorta back dooring him when he invaded Kuwait.
Now make no mistake, Saddam is a vicious, sadistic dictator but so was the Shah of Iran and we supported him as well. More importantly Saddam presided over the closest thing to a modern, secular arab state that has ever existed in the region and that is why Reagan spent years cultivating the alliance.
Then Bush (43) responded to a potential threat of Iraq providing chemical weapons to terrorists groups and rather than simply eliminate Iraqs ability to threaten the US, Bush decided to "fix Iraq" while he was there and it was already as stable and democractic as it was going to get. If the Iraqis wanted western democracy they could have had it a 1,000 years ago.
Bush should have simply eliminated the top Ba'th party leadership, moved the middlemen to the top and told them don't make us come back here again.
I'm no fan of Obama but quite honestly he inherited that shit show and looking at it realized we weren't doing anything that was going to solve the problem so he did the right thing and pulled our guys out. Obama of course did many things to make it worse, especially in Syria, but much like Nixon he at least got us out of there considering we had no end game plan.
Syria is/was much more diverse than Iraq. You can watch Frontline doc's on Syria where they're partying like its Europe in Damascus while ISIS has sex slaves 100 miles away.
Saddam went off the reservation attacking Kuwait, and I don't think that response was wrong. Saddam could have cooled off post Iran-Iraq war but he turned things inwards attacking the Kurds and Kuwaitis.
I mentioned Brennan because disbanding the Iraqi army was a mistake that set us back by years, and in some ways that can't be measured.
Pulling out in 2011 and Obama's handling of Afghanistan cemented how people view both wars now. Obama could have easily signed a SOFA for at least SOF and advisory roles but he sent Biden to tell the Iraqi's we were out but ISIS forced his hand anyways. Obama instituted the surge in Afghanistan that was ineffective because TIC's had to wait an hour for air support and combat troops with 2-3 deployments worth of experience got told to mentor instead of fight.
Which report?It was a report from 2002. There were 28 pages declassified in 2016 that had quite a bit of info on Saudi ties to the hijackers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_28_pages
There is an external link at the bottom of the wiki page to download the 28 pages in question, if anyone so desires.
There was a thread about it here on M4C at one point if I remembered correctly.
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Syria is/was much more diverse than Iraq. You can watch Frontline doc's on Syria where they're partying like its Europe in Damascus while ISIS has sex slaves 100 miles away.
Saddam went off the reservation attacking Kuwait, and I don't think that response was wrong. Saddam could have cooled off post Iran-Iraq war but he turned things inwards attacking the Kurds and Kuwaitis.
I mentioned Brennan because disbanding the Iraqi army was a mistake that set us back by years, and in some ways that can't be measured.
Pulling out in 2011 and Obama's handling of Afghanistan cemented how people view both wars now. Obama could have easily signed a SOFA for at least SOF and advisory roles but he sent Biden to tell the Iraqi's we were out but ISIS forced his hand anyways. Obama instituted the surge in Afghanistan that was ineffective because TIC's had to wait an hour for air support and combat troops with 2-3 deployments worth of experience got told to mentor instead of fight.
You really need to know what April Glaspie told Saddam when he inquired about solving the Iraq / Kuwait oil dispute himself and what the US response would be if any.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie
That is where everything truly went sideways. It happened because the UN didn't want to make a determination that slant drilling on the part of Kuwait into Iraqi oil reserves was theft of resources and the US didn't want to take a stand because Kuwait was using US slant drilling technology.
The entire fiasco could have been avoided if somebody was willing to tell Kuwait they couldn't slant drill across the border and everyone else was willing to pay the extra .05 cents a gallon. Also given the Iraq / Iran war that Saddam thought he was fighting on behalf the US as well as for himself, we probably should have ponied up for some Iraqi oil even though it was above market price just to show we appreciated the effort and to help him repair his economy after almost a decade of war that went nowhere.
If we did that, we wouldn't have had to go be Kuwait's errand boys and reclaim their country and we wouldn't have had to stage out of Saudi which was really one of the bigger problems for the Taliban / Al Quida guys. We could have avoided a metric shit ton of drama by just doing the right thing.
Iraq could still be a mostly secular, stable quasi democracy and Uday and Qusay could still be torturing soccer team members who failed to perform as expected. Not perfect but so much better than what we got and what we still have over there. With the money we saved by not getting into the first Persian Gulf War we could have sent Saddam to the moon to help establish a Chinese base camp.
Bin Laden's son was killed by US special ops.
The Bin Laden's are connected to the Saudi Royal family which has also been subject to attacks. Basically the Taliban / Al Quida / Bin Laden would love to see them all die on fire. But it's a strange dynamic. The Saudi Royal family is also involved in promoting Wahhabi and according to some reports complicit in the 9-11 attacks. But because they play footsie with the US they are a target of the extremists.
I'm sure you are aware of the Truman accord and how the US supports the security of the Saudi royal family when hardliners would prefer a pure Islamic theocracy. And in return they are supposed to keep a lid on the radicals and provide us favorable oil prices, of course they haven't exactly been holding up their end of that deal since the 1970s.
It's all a mess where our enemies are technically allies and while parts of the Royal family are fighting terrorism other parts are funding and supporting terrorism all the while also being targeted by the same terrorists from time to time. The important thing is the Saudi Royal family and the Bin Laden's are a larger group of people than the Brady Bunch with many divergent interests.
Despite that complexity, I'd have been good with a low yield nuke strike on Riyadh once we confirmed the nationality of the 19 hijackers. Several areas of Yemen as well.
That's not the same as direct attacks by OBL on his own family. I don't recall any such event and I personally have no doubt some in his family, as well some within the The Saudi Royal family, were/are sympathizers to OBL cause and directly or indirect supported him. I have no doubt personally at least some within the The Saudi Royal family, vai their intel services, knew where he was all along, as well as those useless "allies" in Pakistan ... Obviously his kid, likely kids, knew were he was and and now one of them dead. Hopefully via a face shooter from our fine SOF who had time to say something "that's for 9/11 you POS"
It's a start...
Bin Laden's son was killed by US special ops.
I have not seen mention of how it happened, but do hope it was a face to face meeting between our SOF people to make sure he knew who was delivering the note vs say, drone strike.
That's not the same as direct attacks by OBL on his own family. I don't recall any such event and I personally have no doubt some in his family, as well some within the The Saudi Royal family, were/are sympathizers to OBL cause and directly or indirect supported him. I have no doubt personally at least some within the The Saudi Royal family, vai their intel services, knew where he was all along, as well as those useless "allies" in Pakistan ... Obviously his kid, likely kids, knew were he was and and now one of them dead. Hopefully via a face shooter from our fine SOF who had time to say something "that's for 9/11 you POS"
It's a start...
Can't find it now but there were reports of a couple assassination attempts after members of the Bin Laden family condemned his actions prior to 9-11 when it became known he was part of the attack on the USS Cole.
I have not seen mention of how it happened, but do hope it was a face to face meeting between our SOF people to make sure he knew who was delivering the note vs say, drone strike.
When I read the Fox article more closely, it seems that the killing might have happened even as long ago as July. The administration is just confirming it. If that's the case, they sure can keep a secret when they wanted to.
Every American should watch ' Why Benghazi Matters ' .
This recently surfaced from Judicial Watch, Obama knew the attack would happen
10 days before.
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/judicial-watch-defense-state-department-documents-reveal-obama-administration-knew-that-al-qaeda-terrorists-had-planned-benghazi-attack-10-days-in-advance/
Every American should watch ' Why Benghazi Matters ' .
This recently surfaced from Judicial Watch, Obama knew the attack would happen
10 days before.
https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/judicial-watch-defense-state-department-documents-reveal-obama-administration-knew-that-al-qaeda-terrorists-had-planned-benghazi-attack-10-days-in-advance/
Posted in OP.
Belmont31R
09-14-19, 20:51
You really need to know what April Glaspie told Saddam when he inquired about solving the Iraq / Kuwait oil dispute himself and what the US response would be if any.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie
That is where everything truly went sideways. It happened because the UN didn't want to make a determination that slant drilling on the part of Kuwait into Iraqi oil reserves was theft of resources and the US didn't want to take a stand because Kuwait was using US slant drilling technology.
The entire fiasco could have been avoided if somebody was willing to tell Kuwait they couldn't slant drill across the border and everyone else was willing to pay the extra .05 cents a gallon. Also given the Iraq / Iran war that Saddam thought he was fighting on behalf the US as well as for himself, we probably should have ponied up for some Iraqi oil even though it was above market price just to show we appreciated the effort and to help him repair his economy after almost a decade of war that went nowhere.
If we did that, we wouldn't have had to go be Kuwait's errand boys and reclaim their country and we wouldn't have had to stage out of Saudi which was really one of the bigger problems for the Taliban / Al Quida guys. We could have avoided a metric shit ton of drama by just doing the right thing.
Iraq could still be a mostly secular, stable quasi democracy and Uday and Qusay could still be torturing soccer team members who failed to perform as expected. Not perfect but so much better than what we got and what we still have over there. With the money we saved by not getting into the first Persian Gulf War we could have sent Saddam to the moon to help establish a Chinese base camp.
OBL was going to be an outcast one way or another. I get he was mad that we had troops in KSA but its one of those things if weren't that he'd have been kicked out over something else. OBL was on a path towards extremism and terrorism no matter what.
I agree that we should support or at least not condemn secular govt's over there as the other option is muslim brotherhood or radical types. Thats why I don't get why Syria became such an issue because if we took that govt out the people who'd have filled the power vacuum would have been much worse. Iraq and Syria both are hosts to Kurds/Christians/Shia/Sunni. MB and other extremists don't play well with 3 of 4 of those groups, and that's what happened in Egypt after the 1st Arab Spring which had to be fixed with the 2nd Arab Spring that Obama was opposed to. He also sat back and did nothing when major protests were ongoing in Iran.
As far as the Taliban I don't really understand why they became the focal point other than war hawks wanting perpetual war. They didn't attack us, and the people there have the right to choose who they want in charge. A lot of rural AFG doesn't mind having them in charge. From watching interviews with a lot of Taliban people most of their contempt for us is just our presence where we don't belong. AQ left AFG in late 2001 and they want us gone. The Taliban is highly localized. We'd be better off putting those resources into attacking AQAP and subordinate groups in Africa.
As far as Iraq Im just saying once we went in the way things were handled was very stupid. Looking back, if given the chance, we shouldn't have gone in but once we did leadership failed the boots on the ground mission. Since we did we should support the groups that can make a difference and set them up as best we can. Lots of people in N Iraq could be transported to a western country and fit right in.
The ME is extremely complex and we haven't ever really gotten the policy perspective right.
OBL was going to be an outcast one way or another. I get he was mad that we had troops in KSA but its one of those things if weren't that he'd have been kicked out over something else. OBL was on a path towards extremism and terrorism no matter what.
I agree that we should support or at least not condemn secular govt's over there as the other option is muslim brotherhood or radical types. Thats why I don't get why Syria became such an issue because if we took that govt out the people who'd have filled the power vacuum would have been much worse. Iraq and Syria both are hosts to Kurds/Christians/Shia/Sunni. MB and other extremists don't play well with 3 of 4 of those groups, and that's what happened in Egypt after the 1st Arab Spring which had to be fixed with the 2nd Arab Spring that Obama was opposed to. He also sat back and did nothing when major protests were ongoing in Iran.
As far as the Taliban I don't really understand why they became the focal point other than war hawks wanting perpetual war. They didn't attack us, and the people there have the right to choose who they want in charge. A lot of rural AFG doesn't mind having them in charge. From watching interviews with a lot of Taliban people most of their contempt for us is just our presence where we don't belong. AQ left AFG in late 2001 and they want us gone. The Taliban is highly localized. We'd be better off putting those resources into attacking AQAP and subordinate groups in Africa.
As far as Iraq Im just saying once we went in the way things were handled was very stupid. Looking back, if given the chance, we shouldn't have gone in but once we did leadership failed the boots on the ground mission. Since we did we should support the groups that can make a difference and set them up as best we can. Lots of people in N Iraq could be transported to a western country and fit right in.
The ME is extremely complex and we haven't ever really gotten the policy perspective right.
I don't have much argument with any of that. But seriously Glaspie gave Saddam some serious mixed messages. There is a vocabulary you have to use with brutal dictators and even I can see how Saddam thought he had been given the green light to fix his domestic issue with Kuwait so long as he didn't make a mess.
Bush (41) is one of the worse Presidents in recent memory, imagine if we just let arabs handle arab business and we still had a strong (well better than the one we have with Saudi) alliance with Iraq. So many things could have been so much better. Seriously screw Turkey and Saudi, if we could have staged out of Iraq for the war on terror in Afghanistan we'd have had a shitload of better options.
Of course it's also true that we'd have solved a lot of other problems by letting Russia stay in Afghanistan without undermining them but we were too eager to pay them back for Vietnam and it did lead directly to bringing down the wall and freeing most of Eastern Europe. Of course Bush (43) wasn't a lot of help when Putin contacted us to ask if Russia could assist us with anything after 9-11 and rather than get on the same page Bush instead called him out on human rights abuses in Chechnya so he could avoid criticisms of fighting a religious war with islam even though that it technically what we had actually been given on 9-11.
All in all I feel we failed all those who fought and sacrificed, I seriously hope they feel otherwise.
hotrodder636
09-16-19, 01:46
I was deployed on the USS Enterprise when 9/11 happened. Those who were there know the story or can look it up , we turned around off the coast of Somalia and went back to the Gulf.
I have not been to the memorials, my wife has and has some beautiful pictures. Seeing that memorial is the only reason I have for going to NYC.
9/11 was a resounding victory.
OBL stated he wanted to change Americans’ way of life and he certainly did.
PATRIOT ACT Safely still in effect
Privacy a quaint relic
Forever Wars
A schism within America that has only grown deeper
Radical ideas being forwarded by elected officials that would have been considered extreme for the even the most thoroughly Liberal politician 20 years ago.
A distinct loss of liberty that has been noticeable.
And people chomping at the bit to start another Cold War
Dig this: 20 years ago....
The future looked pretty bright
Vladimir Putin’s Russia was seriously considering joining NATO
Western Europe didn’t have all these problems
The migrant crisis was nothing that it is now
China was kept at a distance but in check despite the payola.
Cancel Culture didn’t exist
Race relations were the most amiable they’d ever been in 50 years.
Air Travel was easy.
We had essentially world peace.
And......here we are.
18 years. Seems like yesterday.
I won’t pretend to know the woulda shoulda coulda but I do know this....
I wish we had been more adult about it. I wish we didn’t go all Buenos Aires (The only good bug is a dead bug). I wish we’d collectively took a step back and weighed the options better.
I wish we’d rebuilt the Twin Towers to the exact same specs as if to say “We can rebuild. We are not changing for you or anyone else”
I wish we didn’t take the bait. I wish people hadn’t capitalized on the nation’s emotional scarring.
And most of all, I wish the young man or woman turning 18 today could have known what September 10, 2001 felt like. It was a Monday. No cares in the world. The biggest moral issue was stem cell research. You had Cable News that didn’t have constant news tickers scrolling by and nothing devolved into a shouting match. People could disagree with a smile.
Gas was just under a dollar a gallon.
You were more free to find yourself and travel. You could speak your mind and the worst that could happen was someone saying “I think you’re full of shit but okay”. No losing a job. No harassment. No being called a Nazi.
You’d have been shocked that is was the Liberal Left who were telling the dirty jokes with no limits. Nobody got mad, people just laughed it off.
There were real opportunities.
It was a positive and optimistic time. It wasn’t so tacky as a presumption of being like the 80s or 90s. Those days were thankfully gone. We had the future. We were the future. We were reaching people. We were doing things. We didn’t want a rehash of someone else’s time. It was our own.
And it was stolen from us.
Wish you could have been there. Because in 18 more years these will be the Good ol’ days.
Some of you reading this now will not be here to see that.
And perhaps that may be more blessing than curse.
But my advice to anyone would be to enjoy what you have now and to never forget.
And not in some cheap tragedy porn, crisis fetishizing. But never forget 9-10-2001. That last free day of the last free Americans.
Never forget what was taken from you. But also accept that you simply aren’t going to get it back.
Sorry we ripped you off. We just.....got carried away. We thought it was Pearl Harbor and after 5 years of kicking someone’s ass in a righteous war; we’d have a Post-War boom where everyone appreciated what we had more than ever had before. We were going to put it behind us on focus on living.
Didn’t work out thst way.
Sorry ‘bout that.
Amen I agree 100%. I watched a former Royal Marine missing both legs and an arm, treated like crap in Paris on Friday by airport security. While veiled women sailed through.
This pilot took off fully intending to die by ramming her plane into flight 93 because her plane had no weapons onboard. An amazing story i had not heard:
https://tribunist.com/military/this-f-16-pilot-was-ready-to-give-her-life-on-911-now-shes-telling-her-incredible-story/
Will, if you haven't seen it, watch Clear the Skies: 9/11 Air Defense . BBC documentary on how the United States Air Traffic Control System was given the order to get every single plane in US airspace and heading into our airspace air on the ground; it had never been done before. They did it in less than three hours.
They talk about the fighter pilots who were diverted from a training mission, unarmed, and given orders to try and intercept the plane believed to be headed toward the Capitol Building any way they could, including as you already mentioned, ramming an aircraft.
It's an intense, informative, emotional and impressive documentary as to the immediate response on September 11, 2001. It was a terrible day, and many terrible things have happened to our freedoms and to the United States since; but the performance that day of the passengers on Flight 93, our Air Traffic Controllers, of the immediate response to secure the President, secure Washington DC, initiate Continuity of Government, and clear the skies of all aircraft was incredible.
Here's a couple of links for you: DVD - https://www.amazon.com/Clear-Skies-11-Air-Defense/dp/B0009IW89Y
YouTube (in 5 parts): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpPtjGCp4Ss
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