View Full Version : HK to upgrade British SA80 rifles - again.
I suppose an all-new rifle is out of the question - for now:
"The upgrades will incorporate a new Foregrip, an improved upper receiver, and extra safety features"
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/17/hk-awarded-contract-to-upgrade-british-sa80a3/
Good money after bad, previous upgrade contract was $105 million to upgrade 50,000 rifles or $2100 each, bet you can buy a nice M416 for that much money.
The_War_Wagon
09-17-19, 14:10
I thought the SA-80's role was largely ceremonial these days - Buckingham Palace guards and whatnot. SURELY they're not still issuing those to troops in the field!? :eek:
sundance435
09-17-19, 14:27
"Extra safety features"? They could've equipped their entire force with 2 SCARs or 416s each with the money they've spent on "upgrades" alone.
Yeah but then they would have to admit they made a mistake. Much easier to spent taxpayer $$ on band aids.
Extra safety features?! Like a hole drilled into the chamber, some yellow paint marks and "DP"* etched on the receiver
*Drill Purpose
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk
This is a rails, bells and whistles upgrade, not another attempt to improve performance.
Extra safety features?! Like a hole drilled into the chamber, some yellow paint marks and "DP"* etched on the receiver
*Drill Purpose
Sent from my SM-J727T using Tapatalk[emoji106]
This is a great line:
Nicknamed the Civil Servant by troops, because “it doesn’t work ... and it can’t be fired”
https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/irons/2018/11/07/the-brits-are-giving-their-l85-bullpup-rifle-this-96m-makeover/
The SAS can select any firearms they want to fulfill their missions, but they refuse to use the SA80. The Royal Marines in Afghanistan are also swapping the SA80 for the Canadian-made C8 Diemaco, a version of the Colt M-16A3.
Further, the SA80 is a failure as an export weapon. Only Bolivia and Jamaica purchased it, meaning the British government never recouped the rifle’s considerable development costs.
So what about replacing the SA80 with something else? Well, a counterargument is that the Brits have spent so much money on upgrades already, getting rid of the rifle now would be economically and politically disastrous.
So it looks like the SA80 is here to stay in the British Army for at least a few more years — a rifle whose worst critics say was “designed by the incompetent, issued by the uncaring, and carried by the unfortunate.”
https://warisboring.com/the-lads-dont-trust-this-battle-rifle/
I get what they were trying to do but the rifle is simply junk.
Just get Colt Canada M4s or HK416s and call it a day
They clearly lack any understanding of sunk cost.
They clearly lack any understanding of sunk cost.
I think in a way it is almost like trying to retain a “British” identity. The SA80 comes from only one place. There’s a bit of sad irony.
I will say as I have said before that I got to spend a very very brief bit of time with one and I could not imagine actually using it for reals. One of the few in the US and certainly in the Southeast.
You can only shoot it right handed. As in it will bust you in the jaw if you don’t. It is certainly a LOT heavier than it looks. It feels awkward. Oof.
That said the SUSAT is something else. Very clear. Like ACOG clear but different. Had the post reticle.
If you force people to carry that; why not get 14.5 HK 416s? A bit front heavy but with an HKEY or G rail it more than evens out. ACOG. Boom call it a day.
Preferably the newer A5s that fix the SA80 style magwell.
MountainRaven
09-17-19, 22:04
AFAIK, the manufacturer (RSAF-Enfield) of the SA80 is out of business, which is why the UK had to get H&K to do the A2 upgrades in the first place. So the life of the SA80 is finite at this point, anyway.
If I remember my gun lore correctly the SA80 was basically designed by a committee, some of which had never fired a rifle before.
If I remember my gun lore correctly the SA80 was basically designed by a committee, some of which had never fired a rifle before.
Technically, so was Glock. And Glocks are awesome.
This thread got me thinking about a stash of Imperial Defense steel SA80 magazines I have boxed up somewhere. Back during the AWB ban years I appropriated some of these and stashed them for a rainy day. I may dig them out and see how they run in one of my AR's. I have low expectations.
This thread got me thinking about a stash of Imperial Defense steel SA80 magazines I have boxed up somewhere. Back during the AWB ban years I appropriated some of these and stashed them for a rainy day. I may dig them out and see how they run in one of my AR's. I have low expectations.
Wasn't that around the time the British SS109 got imported with many claiming it was downloaded and would barely cycle AR-15's?
Wasn't that around the time the British SS109 got imported with many claiming it was downloaded and would barely cycle AR-15's?
I bought 900 rounds of that Radway Green SS109 in a brown British ammo can way back when and it sat around for years before I finally shot it off a few years ago, never had any issues with it.
However I think there were a couple different batches of that stuff that came into the country, and some of it really was quite underpowered but some of it - like the stuff I had - was ok. I think the ok stuff could be distinguished by a "92" on the headstamp or something, and I think that's what was on the headstamps of mine "RORG 92" and maybe a NATO cross, I can't totally recall. Although I probably have most of the brass kicking around still
Technically, so was Glock. And Glocks are awesome.
Touché
I like this quote from the warisboring article:
“To be fair, some British soldiers say the L85A2 — the most recent incarnation of the SA80 assault rifle — is reliable most of the time.
Still, past versions of the SA80 were notorious for their stoppages, particularly in harsh environments found on a typical battlefield. The rifle frequently had “bits” that would break or fall off the weapon. There are even stories of fixed bayonets “going ballistic” when soldiers opened fire.”
How is something reliable most of the time? Do you know when that is or is it unpredictable, thus not reliable?
Bits that would break or fall off!!! Like the mags dropping unexpectedly.
Pour more money into that sweetness!!
I did an exchange with the Royal Marine Commandos, I wanted to carry the SA80, but was issued a M-16. I shot it, plenty, definitely did not fall in love with it.
AFAIK, the manufacturer (RSAF-Enfield) of the SA80 is out of business, which is why the UK had to get H&K to do the A2 upgrades in the first place. So the life of the SA80 is finite at this point, anyway.
At the time RSAF actually owned HK during the A2 upgrade. HK had recently been sold mostly because of the failure of the G11 to be adopted after German reunification created many financial hardships for the country. Other projects such as the OICW that involved heavy R&D costs and were ultimately not adopted also led to the sale of H&K.
Technically, so was Glock. And Glocks are awesome.
Yeah but the Glock wasn't designed by a British ground forces committee, which, as far as I know, have a pretty long history of goofy stuff.
MountainRaven
09-18-19, 22:07
At the time RSAF actually owned HK during the A2 upgrade. HK had recently been sold mostly because of the failure of the G11 to be adopted after German reunification created many financial hardships for the country. Other projects such as the OICW that involved heavy R&D costs and were ultimately not adopted also led to the sale of H&K.
I believe it was BAE that owned H&K at the time of the A2 program: That BAE was awarded the A2 contract because they're British and BAE basically bought H&K just for the A2 upgrade program.
Yeah but the Glock wasn't designed by a British ground forces committee, which, as far as I know, have a pretty long history of goofy stuff.
In point of fact, I believe that Gaston Glock (and his engineers) went to and spoke with as many small arms experts as they could find while developing their pistol, and they studied existing pistol designs.
Moreover, the Glock pistol is engineered to be simple and easy to manufacture using (then) modern manufacturing techniques, everything else is secondary to that mechanical simplicity. It's sort of like the AK or the AR-15, in that the design has an overarching requirement and everything else flows naturally from that one point.
The SA80 did not have an overarching requirement beyond, "bullpup AR-18 (without paying Sterling or ArmaLite any licensing fees)". In fact, Sterling was so put off by the SA80's development, that they literally made a bullpup conversion AR-18... which was reputed to have worked better than the RSAF SA80.
ETA: I believe Ian McCollum did a video on the Sterling AR-18 bullpup, but I'm not finding it.
I believe it was BAE that owned H&K at the time of the A2 program: That BAE was awarded the A2 contract because they're British and BAE basically bought H&K just for the A2 upgrade program.
I think you might be right about BAE, but there was a reason HK was even for sale. I think the other potential buyer was GIAT. And yeah, the A2 upgrade was the biggest reason for them buying HK.
Well, the only good thing about this weapon is that the Brits were never able to inflict it on the rest of the world.
People make a big deal out of the US forcing .308 on NATO, but at least some decent weapons came out of that deal....
Well, the only good thing about this weapon is that the Brits were never able to inflict it on the rest of the world.
People make a big deal out of the US forcing .308 on NATO, but at least some decent weapons came out of that deal....
Hard to say if the EM2 would have developed into a viable weapon or not. Certainly the L1A1 served the UK well but I think that was a big part of going to a compact weapon system like the L85A1 / SA80, people were tired of lugging that big boat of a rifle around so I can see where everybody that "anything else" might be an improvement.
It's also ironic that the FAMAS seemed to have been mostly successful even though features and ergonomics would tend to favor the SA80. Obviously a big part of the problem is cost cutting a complex weapon design. Even the Aussies managed to fuxor a proven system by trying to produce a cost effective AUG.
And along those lines, we've all seen crap grade ARs so you can literally screw up any weapon system design. I bet if HK or Steyr built an SA80 type weapon from the ground up it would run like a clock.
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