View Full Version : When is Ammo Too Old
masterdrago
09-24-19, 11:38
It was recently advised that the ammo in the pix attached was in very poor condition and looks old. The reason I'm asking is I'm trying to zero in on an issue (case not exiting fast enough) possibly unrelated to the question. So when is 4 year old ammo too old? When it gets a few microns of oxide on it because it has been stored in loaded Gen 2 or 3 PMAGS? Should ammo that has this discoloration not be fired in modern sporting rifles? Should it only be stored in the original cardboard, plastic or metal shipping contains as opposed to in a magazine? I have noticed that ammo kept in PMAGS get this discoloration faster than the ammo kept elsewhere.
https://i.imgur.com/ZufyJka.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/BBKP9uY.jpg
Ammo inserted into a magazine in a dry environment, like your home, should still look basically new 30 years later.....maybe a small amount of oxidation. In addition to looking new, 30 year old ammo will still perform as new.
Did you store this ammo in the bathroom next to the shower?
masterdrago
09-24-19, 13:25
Ammo inserted into a magazine in a dry environment, like your home, should still look basically new 30 years later.....maybe a small amount of oxidation. In addition to looking new, 30 year old ammo will still perform as new.
Did you store this ammo in the bathroom next to the shower? Not a chance in the bathroom! Maybe a loaded firearm but never loose ammo. The loaded mags were either in a metal file cabinet in an office or in a range bag made of either nylon or cloth lined leather. In the pix below, see 3 different storage methods. The one stored in the mag looks the most oxidized.
Top is a 3 year old American Eagle Lake City 62gr XM855 stored in a PMAG for ~1year
Middle is 4 year old IMI 55gr M193 BTFMJ stored in cardboard boxes of 30 rounds in a bulk plastic ammo can
Bottom is 4 year old American Eagle 55gr XM193 FMJBT stored loose in a metal ammo can
https://i.imgur.com/8NxNvH0.jpg
Opening boxes of misc .223 and 5.56 ammo in my locker, it appears that the preferred way to store is in cardboard small boxes or even when the divider is Styrofoam or plastic, not is plastic magazines.
So what I was told or advised about the ammo looking "old" or in very poor condition should not have a effect on it loading from the mag into the chamber?
... it appears that the preferred way to store is in cardboard small boxes or even when the divider is Styrofoam or plastic, not is plastic magazines.
Depends on the cardboard. Over on TFL there was an issue with acidic cardboard corroding cases so badly that they were junk... The cases turned pink (ammonia vs. copper?) and were visibly/tangibly weakened:
https://m14forum.com/ammunition/108956-pictures-corrosion-inside-men94-cases.html
That said, when I buy "battle packs," I tend to just store them that way.
Otherwise, ammo is not perishable. Left in a cool dry place, it's basically good forever. The kind of tarnish on brass cases that you're seeing is a non-issue.
It was recently advised that the ammo in the pix attached was in very poor condition and looks old.
It's not polished, but it doesn't look old. Military ammo and some of the XM193 type ammo can look a little rustic although it's current production. Ammo should easily hold up for decades and decades if stored in decent conditions. I don't keep ammo in card stock boxes due to that material being capable of holding moisture.
Just for reference,
A while back, a buddy brought his Russian capture Mauser K98K with both German and Russian markings on it, along with an ammo can full of de-linked MG42 heavy ball ammo.
This stuff was the hotter MG ammo which delivers a 197gr wrecking ball at over 2400 fps.
The head stamps were '39 or '41, so these cartridges had seen a world war, a cold war and who knows what else over their 70+ years.
All but one cartridge worked perfectly, delivering a healthy donkey-kick to the shoulder.
Impressive.
Ammo looks fine. Doesn't need to look polished and new.
I'm still shooting ammo made in the 50s -80s and I store them how they come. Wooden crates, cardboard boxes, steel tins.... whatever
Top is a 3 year old American Eagle Lake City 62gr XM855 stored in a PMAG for ~1year
Middle is 4 year old IMI 55gr M193 BTFMJ stored in cardboard boxes of 30 rounds in a bulk plastic ammo can
Bottom is 4 year old American Eagle 55gr XM193 FMJBT stored loose in a metal ammo can...
Jeez, 3-4 years old is "brand new" to me.
I have some .30 Carbine and .380ACP that I loaded back in the 1990s (I don't shoot those much), and some milsurp 7.62NATO from the 1980s (those were the days).
Even my "serious purposes" ammo is at least 3-5 years old now, and it's just going to get older and older since California banned online ammo sales.
I found a box of my reloads recently that was 32 years old. Fifty rounds of .45 ACP loaded with Bullseye powder and 230 grain cast bullets. I took it to the range, and got fifty good bangs.
hotrodder636
09-24-19, 20:01
Stored in a nice climate controlled house inside of ammo cans, it should be good for as long as you need.
Not sure if the cloth lining would negate the problem, but brass against leather (I assume tanning process determines the level) can corrode brass quickly also.
masterdrago
09-24-19, 22:53
Not sure if the cloth lining would negate the problem, but brass against leather (I assume tanning process determines the level) can corrode brass quickly also. All of the ammo that is kept in magazines is in the leather carry on bag that is lined with a tight weave, most likely nylon fabric. The ammo has not spent more than a year in the mags, but all of it is discolored (tarnished) in the same way. Not just the ammo exposed at the top of the mag. I would have never given it a second thought had not a rep at Sig mentioned that it looked "old or in very poor condition". I'll add that the fired ammo does look somewhat more tarnished than b4 being ejected as a hot hull. Possibly there is out-gassing from the leather, although it is a well matured carry on bag of about 20+ years. It actually makes a nice ammo bag for the range with all the mags loaded and labelled and easy to see. I'm getting from reading replies that the discoloration (tarnished look) could not in any way create feeding issues.
Jeez, 3-4 years old is "brand new" to me.
Very much so. I haven't bought a case of ammo in probably 8-10 years.
Possibly there is out-gassing from the leather...
When in doubt, drop a VCI tab in the bag. I use them all over the place, because I live underwater (in the PNW).
This assumes you do NOT keep paper in the bag... VCI yellows paper.
I'm getting from reading replies that the discoloration (tarnished look) could not in any way create feeding issues.
Never say "not in any way." Shiny brass is slick, and tarnished brass is less slick. (This is why some premium ammo uses nickel cases.)
If it were my go-to SHTF ammo, I would want it shiny. If I'm taking it to the range, then I'm not worried.
Cool dry place?
50-100+ years.
The oldest ammo I've fired was 5 rounds of .32 S&W (short). I think it was made in the 1920's (based on the story / family history of the gun they had been loaded in) but no way to be certain. They looked fairly bad and I wiped off a lot of corrosion so they'd fit well in the cylinders.
Fired it from a Ruger LCR over a chronograph. All fired, none gave a reading. 😔 it felt slightly weaker than fresh Magtech .32 s&w short.
I should have painted the bullets or something so maybe they'd read. Ah well.
I've also seen @15 yr old .223 stored in a Florida attic that was ruined by the heat. (Bullets could be pulled by hand, cases split on about 1/3 of them. Was about 1200 rds)
All of the ammo that is kept in magazines is in the leather carry on bag that is lined with a tight weave, most likely nylon fabric. The ammo has not spent more than a year in the mags, but all of it is discolored (tarnished) in the same way. Not just the ammo exposed at the top of the mag. I would have never given it a second thought had not a rep at Sig mentioned that it looked "old or in very poor condition". I'll add that the fired ammo does look somewhat more tarnished than b4 being ejected as a hot hull. Possibly there is out-gassing from the leather, although it is a well matured carry on bag of about 20+ years. It actually makes a nice ammo bag for the range with all the mags loaded and labelled and easy to see. I'm getting from reading replies that the discoloration (tarnished look) could not in any way create feeding issues.
I don't think yours is to the level of being an issue at all.
I don't think age has any effect on leather vs. brass corrosion. I have stripper clip pouches from the 50's? That still do it. A (better) discussion here of what I am referring to.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/brass-leather-corrosion.776545/
All fired, none gave a reading. �� it felt slightly weaker than fresh Magtech .32 s&w short.
Weird... My chrono reads 38 caliber bullets down to < 300fps, and it picks up 22LR and even 17HMR bullets perfectly.
Ammo inserted into a magazine in a dry environment, like your home, should still look basically new 30 years later.....maybe a small amount of oxidation. In addition to looking new, 30 year old ammo will still perform as new.
Did you store this ammo in the bathroom next to the shower?
Most of mine is in the house so, dry environment. Some of it and all the older stuff is in ammo cans with gaskets in the garage, which is attached to the house but not heated. There's definitely extra dampness in the garage, since we're in the PNW. I've stored dessicant packs in each can, but don't renew them often enough. Haven't seen any drop in reliability or significant corrosion, but I have to think this is going to impact on shelf life.
Just finished up 500 rounds of 22lr my father just gave me. The ammo was older than I am, and I'm turning 50 in a few months. I'm sure it was in his garage for most of that time under less than ideal temperature and moisture conditions. Only about 3 or 4 duds in the whole lot.
snackgunner
09-27-19, 14:17
ive been wondering about this
for example the IMI m193 1,200 round cases (boxes) I purchased a couple and have kept them in their original brown box instead of putting them in ammo cans
wondering if its a better idea to put them in ammo cans if I only plan on saving the ammo and not shooting it anytime in the near future
If you don't know how many years it will be before it's used, then yes it is a better idea (though hardly necessary) to use an 0-ringed ammo can with desiccant than in the factory cardboard boxes. Stored in this method, your children can use it during their retirement years.
The_War_Wagon
09-27-19, 15:20
So when is 4 year old ammo too old?
Have your Great-Great-Grandchildren check back on that. Depending on storage conditions, it MIGHT be an issue by then.
Or not.
Weird... My chrono reads 38 caliber bullets down to < 300fps, and it picks up 22LR and even 17HMR bullets perfectly.
I haven't had mine for long but it's never failed to read 5 shots in a row like that.
I haven't had mine for long but it's never failed to read 5 shots in a row like that.
LOL... you sure you don't have 5 bullets piled up in the barrel?
LOL... you sure you don't have 5 bullets piled up in the barrel?
Hehe..(ok, I lol'ed!) no, I've fired the gun many times since.
But I probably should have checked at the time! I felt some recoil so I was pretty sure they left the barrel.
I did later chrono the Magtech .32 s&w Short load and the 85 gr LRN averaged 692 fps with an ES of 9 fps from 5 shots (or 6) from the .327 LCR.
Wasnt as weak as I thought it was going to be.
PPU .32 S&W Long 98 gr avg 647 fps ES 81 fps same day.
.25 acp 50 gr goes about 725 fps for the ammo l like so...it can all kill.
I did later chrono the Magtech .32 s&w Short load and the 85 gr LRN averaged 692 fps with an ES of 9 fps from 5 shots (or 6) from the .327 LCR.
Wasn't as weak as I thought it was going to be.
Still, that's less energy than a healthy .22LR... Recoil must be pretty mild.
A lot of my ammo is 5 or 6 years old. I vacuum seal it as soon as I get it home. It still looks brand new when I open it. But I've have some hand loads that just sat on my closet shelf in a plastic MTM case since 1986. The brass had oxidized but no corrosion on it. Tried some a couple of years ago and it shot just fine.
Keep ammunition stored in a cool, dry place and it will last for decades. The container is less important than the environment. Example: Some of the 30-06 I have on hand was made in 1968 and some of the 8mm Mauser was made in 1954. Neither show any signs of deterioration and samples chronograph like new ammunition.
I've shot 40 year old ammo no issue
Most of my ammo collection is likely more than 4 years old now.
I dont think its ammo age. It could just be bad ammo?
properly stored ammo will last DECADES. in some cases century(s) one of the local gun shop guys has some ww1 30-06. he will shoot some ocasionaly from his 1903.
MILSPEC ammo in unopened cans has a project min storage life of `25+ years. If the can is opened the estimated life is 75 years.
Old I have shot was loaded in 1933.
I have German 7.62 x51 from 1959 that I shoot. (DAG or MEN, one)
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