View Full Version : Ian McCollum on the lack of Jewish resistance during WWII
Definitely not a mainstream take on what happened.
https://youtu.be/alygC4r3rjw
Wrong. As a tribe member have to speak up, His research is precursory. The number of Jews involved in active fighting, as in partisan, was approximately 65,000 with the exact number thought to be higher but the fluidity, especially on the Eastern Front, makes the exact number impossible to determine.
Way too complex to get into on a forum.
While I was a student at the University of Arizona (1978-1982), I had as neighbors an elderly couple who were German-Jews. They had both been in Auschwitz but did not meet until after the war. I had met them while I had a part-time job helping out with a Rosh Hashanah radio broadcast at the nearby Temple Emanu-El.
This little couple were in their 80's when I knew them and both still had their Auschwitz numbers tattooed on their forearms. We spent a lot of time talking about their lives, and that of my new father-in-law who was in the D-Day invasion at Omaha Beach. This elderly Jewish man was a Violinist with the Berlin Philharmonic when Hitler came to power, and his future wife was a Professor of Philosophy at Humbolt University in Berlin. Both were highly educated and in the upper part of German society prior to Hitler.
In my conversations with them, I got the impression they never thought the round-up of Jews would encompass the whole of society, and they were in a kind in denial that it would happen to them. They were productive citizens contributing to the betterment of German society, and it was beyond their ability to comprehend the totality of the evil that happened so fast.
I kept in touch with both until their deaths in the early 1990's. My life was better in knowing them and their story.
Nobody take this wrong, but if we accept this then why are all of these Jewish (practicing or not) congressmen in such a rush to ban guns and entrust weapons only to “the authorities”
People forget (or don’t care) that Hitler wasn’t a dictator. He was elected and supported by his constituents.
You want me to feel sorry for the holocaust and cry about it but then you want me to not have a means to prevent another one.
If people start getting rounded up, I want the best gun I can possibly get.
In a way, this has caused me to lose a lot of respect for fat, lazy and ignorant American Jews who bitch and moan about the past but then want me and others disarmed.
It’s bullshit.
I dunno what would’ve happened to Anne Frank, but if she had a Thompson and 5 topped off mags ready to go with two ranger taped together in her gun; she wouldn’t have died in a camp and wouldn’t have died alone.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-24-19, 20:24
I think that you have to see it in the view that the Jews had had the crap kicked out of them in most major cities in Europe on a seemingly once-a-century rotation plan. It seems every EU city I go to there is a plaque in the former 'Jewish Quarter' where they list the times that there was an attack on the Jews and how many were killed. Looking at the history, the strategy of keep your head down and wait for it to blow over might seem viable. Lots more Jews than Carthaginians in the world today- not the same, but you get the point. That you had a mad man running an industrial slaughtering machine that actually wanted to kill them all and not just use them as a scapegoats was something that they hadn't seen before.
I think that you have to see it in the view that the Jews had had the crap kicked out of them in most major cities in Europe on a seemingly once-a-century rotation plan. It seems every EU city I go to there is a plaque in the former 'Jewish Quarter' where they list the times that there was an attack on the Jews and how many were killed. Looking at the history, the strategy of keep your head down and wait for it to blow over might seem viable. Lots more Jews than Carthaginians in the world today- not the same, but you get the point. That you had a mad man running an industrial slaughtering machine that actually wanted to kill them all and not just use them as a scapegoats was something that they hadn't seen before.
Ok and? A lot of have certainly found them in positions and/or spheres of influence, be it Hollywood, politics, media, or whatever but it’s always the same message drumb being beat about victimization or what have you. (Aren’t the majority of the major news network’s leadership respectively?)
All the while doing exactly what firefly says they’re doing.
I don’t get it. How Jewish folks can identify as even remotely liberal baffles me considering history. Like as a homogeneous group they should be absolute zealots on MANY 1A, 2A, and 4A issues. But no, mostly just silence. If not outright enabling this BS.
They proclaim Trump is literally Hitler, but want the gov to confiscate everyone’s firearms.
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Ok and? A lot of have certainly found them in positions and/or spheres of influence, be it Hollywood, politics, media, or whatever but it’s always the same message drumb being beat about victimization or what have you. (Aren’t the majority of the major news network’s leadership respectively?)
All the while doing exactly what firefly says they’re doing.
I don’t get it. How Jewish folks can identify as even remotely liberal baffles me considering history. Like as a homogeneous group they should be absolute zealots on MANY 1A, 2A, and 4A issues. But no, mostly just silence. If not outright enabling this BS.
They proclaim Trump is literally Hitler, but want the gov to confiscate everyone’s firearms.
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Same goes for an inexplicably large number of black/native/Japanese Americans, just to name a few.
Wrong. As a tribe member have to speak up, His research is precursory. The number of Jews involved in active fighting, as in partisan, was approximately 65,000 with the exact number thought to be higher but the fluidity, especially on the Eastern Front, makes the exact number impossible to determine.
Way too complex to get into on a forum.
Kudos to the 65k, but spread out over 10 years isn't a lot of focused man power vs. their opposition.
Another thing that I have to assume dicked that up was the frequent communism angle considering it is it's own negative.
Wrong. As a tribe member have to speak up, His research is precursory. The number of Jews involved in active fighting, as in partisan, was approximately 65,000 with the exact number thought to be higher but the fluidity, especially on the Eastern Front, makes the exact number impossible to determine.
Way too complex to get into on a forum.
Bro, I’ve texted and emailed you in the last couple months and crickets. Drop me a line.
Nobody take this wrong, but if we accept this then why are all of these Jewish (practicing or not) congressmen in such a rush to ban guns and entrust weapons only to “the authorities”
People forget (or don’t care) that Hitler wasn’t a dictator. He was elected and supported by his constituents.
You want me to feel sorry for the holocaust and cry about it but then you want me to not have a means to prevent another one.
If people start getting rounded up, I want the best gun I can possibly get.
In a way, this has caused me to lose a lot of respect for fat, lazy and ignorant American Jews who bitch and moan about the past but then want me and others disarmed.
It’s bullshit.
I dunno what would’ve happened to Anne Frank, but if she had a Thompson and 5 topped off mags ready to go with two ranger taped together in her gun; she wouldn’t have died in a camp and wouldn’t have died alone.
As someone of Jewish descent, I completely agree.
Like, my cousin’s husband is a self proclaimed Athiest Jew (I still don’t know what this means) and all he does is prattle on about victimization and is terrified that Trump is going to send the new Gestapo and snatch him off the street in broad daylight because he’s Jewish.
It gets really hard to sympathize about anything with these folks.
Never mind that Trumps son in-law is Jewish.
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Just finished the video earlier. Very interesting points and could/should be an eye opener for some folks.
How Jewish folks can identify as even remotely liberal baffles me considering history.
There was a time when liberal didn't just mean progressive or communist. It wasn't that long ago that the NRA actually had to grade Dems as pro or anti...
HardToHandle
09-25-19, 00:12
It’s bullshit.
I dunno what would’ve happened to Anne Frank, but if she had a Thompson and 5 topped off mags ready to go with two ranger taped together in her gun; she wouldn’t have died in a camp and wouldn’t have died alone.
My grandfather’s Catholic cousin died in a Nazi death camp while my Grandfather was fighting the Japanese.
It wasn’t just Jews and it wasn’t just Europe. And as Fire Fly adroitly observed, Hitler was democratically elected.
Dying with your boots on is just as dead, but I would much prefer company if it was me.
I don't know the number who fought / resisted and I don't know the number that collaborated / assisted. I know both happened.
But here is the important thing, the holocaust is a big deal because something like that never happened before. Sure there were mass killings all through history, but nobody achieved the level of industrial efficiency that the Germans accomplished during WWII. Even when their time and resources would have intelligently been better spent fighting Russia to a possible stalemate, they instead gave huge priority to their extermination programs.
So if you were one of the unfortunates who found yourself in one of the locations it was probably because nobody in their right mind could imagine it would really come to that, and it wasn't just jewish folks in those camps. The first internees were Germans who objected to any of the new policies, racial or otherwise. And once you found yourself in a work camp or extermination camp, by the time you realized the truth of your situation it was definitely too late to do anything about it.
Those who managed to avoid the round ups, those who fought as partisans and those who managed to actually create and participate in any kind of uprising are the exception to what happened to most people. Nazi Germany was in every sense of the word a police state and most Germans embraced their civic duty as informers and even enforcers.
Everyone tries to dismiss Nazi leaders as incompetent, but sadly the reality is they were brutally effective, especially gestapo networks and internal security forces. Even worse, occupied countries like France quickly got on board with identifying and deporting "enemies of the state" without even being asked to.
In Poland, they definitely got screwed both ways by invasions from Germany and Russia and got forgotten after the war and ended up doomed to be a Soviet satellite nation for decades, but the Germans didn't have to round up a lot of people during the invasion, there were plenty of Poles who were willing to do it for them. The same thing was true in Ulkraine and too many other "victim countries" of the German invasion.
Lots and lots of collaborators pretty much everywhere the Germans went with the exception of Russia home territory and parts of Yugoslavia. If you were Jewish, or some other "target group", you didn't stand a chance because people would line up to sell you out in the hopes of being viewed in a favorable light.
It's funny when people talk about "If it was ME, I'd have done this or I'd have done that" and it's a f'cking joke. They wouldn't have done shit because they couldn't imagine what was ahead of them. And just when they thought, ok this is as bad as it gets, it usually got worse. And by the time you figure out exactly how bad it is actually gonna get, the time for "do this or do that" was a long time ago and you don't really have any control over your life or any choices any more.
There was a time when liberal didn't just mean progressive or communist. It wasn't that long ago that the NRA actually had to grade Dems as pro or anti...
Yea true... but we’re wayyyyyyyy past that nowadays so it isn’t an excuse.
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Nobody take this wrong, but if we accept this then why are all of these Jewish (practicing or not) congressmen in such a rush to ban guns and entrust weapons only to “the authorities”
I think to answer that question you first need to examine to what degree folks depend on the government to protect them. As I've mentioned in other threads, many societies completely differ from ours in that they depend on the government to protect them. They don't have a 2nd Amendment to remind them that even the founders of their government believed that the citizens ought to be able to protect themselves from the government that they, the founding fathers, were putting together.
Keeping that in mind, and considering the history of America since the Civil War, is it so surprising that many folks in America today can't conceive of needing firearms to protect themselves from the government? And that many, in fact rely on the government to protect them.
You talk of Jewish Congressmen. Think about Israel in the context of it's history. Yet, look at the Israeli gun control laws. Talking in the context in which you are speaking, Israeli citizens should be adamant in their rights to self-protection. Yet they aren't, they trust the government.
Congressmen, and rich folks, in general, don't share the same concerns that you and I do. Those folks, absent a sinister reason for wanting to disarm folks, simply don't see a need for the average American to be able to defend himself, that is what government does.
And, in the case of Congress Critters, you have to judge their tribal affiliations - is checking all the 'woke' Democratic boxes more important to them than the history of their religion?
Like, my cousin’s husband is a self proclaimed Athiest Jew (I still don’t know what this means) and all he does is prattle on about victimization and is terrified that Trump is going to send the new Gestapo and snatch him off the street in broad daylight because he’s Jewish.
It gets really hard to sympathize about anything with these folks.
Never mind that Trumps son in-law is Jewish.
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Jewish is both a religion and a nationality.
You could say that you're a French Catholic or a American Protestant or a Greek Orthodox. Where as if you were Jewish you'd say you're a Jew from France or a Jew from Greece. In other words you are an American who happens to be born Christian meanwhile, if you were a Jew you'd be Jewish who happened to be born in America.
Nobody take this wrong, but if we accept this then why are all of these Jewish (practicing or not) congressmen in such a rush to ban guns and entrust weapons only to “the authorities”
People forget (or don’t care) that Hitler wasn’t a dictator. He was elected and supported by his constituents.
You want me to feel sorry for the holocaust and cry about it but then you want me to not have a means to prevent another one.
If people start getting rounded up, I want the best gun I can possibly get.
In a way, this has caused me to lose a lot of respect for fat, lazy and ignorant American Jews who bitch and moan about the past but then want me and others disarmed.
It’s bullshit.
I dunno what would’ve happened to Anne Frank, but if she had a Thompson and 5 topped off mags ready to go with two ranger taped together in her gun; she wouldn’t have died in a camp and wouldn’t have died alone.
As a person of Jewish decent I fail to grasp this as well. [I say "Jewish decent" and not "Jew" since I am an atheist]
My grandparents and great grandparents had to flee past the Ural mountains in summer of 1941 to get away from the invading Nazis before them men had to return and go to the front. We believe we lost family at Babi Yar but aren't 100% sure. The vast majority of my family who emigrated from the former Soviet Union are fairly conservative. Thought they may not be rolling deep in ARs and ammo, most of them have at least one gun in the house. The only ones who are liberals are two brain washed cousins who were born here. Perhaps that is the key, since stereotypically most Jewish kids go to college, there is a greater chance of them being brainwashed there? Don't know, but I will never understand a Jew who wants to be left defenseless and have the government hold all the guns.
Jewish is both a religion and a nationality.
You could say that you're a French Catholic or a American Protestant or a Greek Orthodox. Where as if you were Jewish you'd say you're a Jew from France or a Jew from Greece. In other words you are an American who happens to be born Christian meanwhile, if you were a Jew you'd be Jewish who happened to be born in America.
That is the Soviet way of thinking that carried over to here. I have this argument with my uncle all the time.
As reference for others: Soviet passport item #5 stated your Nationality. It would say which republic you were born in unless you were a Jew. It could be "Russian", "Ukrainian" "Belorussian", "Usbek" etc, or "Jew" So even thought I was born in the Ukraine, my passport said "Jew"
I disagree that Judaism is a nationality, Ethiopian Jews share no commonality with an Ashkenazi Jew other than religious belief.
As a person of Jewish decent I fail to grasp this as well. [I say "Jewish decent" and not "Jew" since I am an atheist]
My grandparents and great grandparents had to flee past the Ural mountains in summer of 1941 to get away from the invading Nazis before them men had to return and go to the front. We believe we lost family at Babi Yar but aren't 100% sure. The vast majority of my family who emigrated from the former Soviet Union are fairly conservative. Thought they may not be rolling deep in ARs and ammo, most of them have at least one gun in the house. The only ones who are liberals are two brain washed cousins who were born here. Perhaps that is the key, since stereotypically most Jewish kids go to college, there is a greater chance of them being brainwashed there? Don't know, but I will never understand a Jew who wants to be left defenseless and have the government hold all the guns.
That is the Soviet way of thinking that carried over to here. I have this argument with my uncle all the time.
As reference for others: Soviet passport item #5 stated your Nationality. It would say which republic you were born in unless you were a Jew. It could be "Russian", "Ukrainian" "Belorussian", "Usbek" etc, or "Jew" So even thought I was born in the Ukraine, my passport said "Jew"
I disagree that Judaism is a nationality, Ethiopian Jews share no commonality with an Ashkenazi Jew other than religious belief.
I was always taught it was a nationality. Because even Ethiopian Jews are just one of the lost tribes. But yes, I agree with you. Logically it doesn't make sense and my reletives think I'm weird for disagreeing.
The logic I use is that in same way that Christianity came to Europe, so did Judaism. I get funny looks!
I had several partisans on both sides of the family. My mother's grandfather fought in the battle of Kiev. No one knows what happened to him. My great grandma's neighbor thought she saw him in a procession of prisoners being led away by the Germans but no one knows for sure.
My dad's cousins were partisans in the Moldova. My dad's father smuggled guns to the partisans.
My family mimics yours, and I suspect quite a lot of other E. European immigrants. Most fall somewhere between libertarian and conservative. Most were born in the Soviet Union. I do have two reletives born here who are quite the commies. One made a remark last year about being a communist so I asked if she liked helicopter rides! She didn't get it. However, I also have two college age cousins who were born here (18 and 21) who are conservative.
SomeOtherGuy
09-25-19, 09:34
But here is the important thing, the holocaust is a big deal because something like that never happened before. Sure there were mass killings all through history, but nobody achieved the level of industrial efficiency that the Germans accomplished during WWII.
Except it wasn't the first time.
1) Armenian Genocide, 1915, 1.5M killed systematically. No gas chambers but otherwise very similar to Nazi actions. Separating men from women & children, death marches, etc.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Genocide
2) Holodomor, intentional genocide of Ukrainian people by USSR, 1932-33. Systematic starvation of a population. It was in no way some "random act of god/nature" accident as the USSR long pretended. Death toll estimates vary but best estimates are in the 2.4M-7.5M range.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Holodomor
3) On a far smaller scale, but using concentration camps to imprison and kill off an ethnically different population wasn't new either, as the British used them against Boer (Dutch settler) civilians in 1900-1902:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Second_Boer_War#Concentration_camps_.281900.E2.80.931902.29
If you look at Eastern Europe and even Italy, the partisan groups grew out of or at least were aligned to communist groups.
At best many were very socialist and at worst were outright Marxist. It was the opposite of the fascism (in the pure political sense), so it's not surprising.
This is different from Russian communism under Stalin, which became very fascist in nature.
So of the ones that fled and or survived, it's not surprising to me that they are fairly left-leaning. Add to that the academic influence.
I visited a concentration camp in northeastern Italy (downtown Trieste). It was an eye-opener.
They didn't hang up a sign and say "okay we're going to round up all the Jews". It was much more subtle and insidious.
The head of household would be called down to the police station to "straighten out something with their papers". They would be kept. Then over time other family members might be pulled in.
Often local fascist aligned neighbors were ratting them out as they went. Many times it was taking out a competitive business. Or leaving a desirable house vacant.
If you were a law-abiding citizen just trying to be the gray man due to a long history of persecution, you would probably go along with it.
This concentration camp is literally across the street from a soccer stadium. Many locals do not even know it exists. Yet it had a crematorium and is a scary spooky place. I was a bit rattled after visiting at because of the implications.
Most Americans would not think twice of going down to the police station to straighten out a "paperwork issue" or even to answer some questions. You might want a lawyer, but you're not going to tell the family to pack up and run. Or trigger a shootout at the door.
We (rightfully) trust the police. At the time, so did they. And so they went willingly.
By the time it got to the point in other areas where there were ghettos and similar, it was too late.
If you look at Eastern Europe and even Italy, the partisan groups grew out of or at least were aligned to communist groups.
At best many were very socialist and at worst were outright Marxist. It was the opposite of the fascism (in the pure political sense), so it's not surprising.
This is different from Russian communism under Stalin, which became very fascist in nature.
.
And that is what piques my curiosity about how effective, or not, the group's were. Read a bit on Chinese communists groups opposing Japanese and they weren't very effective because their main focus was wanting communism instead of wanting to be rid of the Japanese. And ultimately they didn't have a problem with what was being done, just who was doing the slaughtering.
People are all so full of ish and tend to exagerate accomplishment
I always lol about the end of WWII in europe.... Suddenly no one was a nazi and everyone else was part of the resistance.
Even with only anecdotal evidence Id bet actual participation in the resistance would pale in comparison to the 3% that fought the american revolution. At least until the end when the germans were already on the run... then everyone got out their arm bands, berets and other staples of partisan fashion.
Seriously dilutes the efforts of those who actually "resisted"
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Jewish is both a religion and a nationality.
You could say that you're a French Catholic or a American Protestant or a Greek Orthodox. Where as if you were Jewish you'd say you're a Jew from France or a Jew from Greece. In other words you are an American who happens to be born Christian meanwhile, if you were a Jew you'd be Jewish who happened to be born in America.
Sorry, despite this explanation, I don't buy the 'Jewish is both a religion and a nationality. By the same definition you could say that Christianity is a nation.
Judaism can be thought of as being simultaneously a religion, a nationality and a culture.
Throughout the middle ages and into the 20th century, most of the European world agreed that Jews constituted a distinct nation. This concept of nation does not require that a nation have either a territory nor a government, but rather, it identifies, as a nation any distinct group of people with a common language and culture. Only in the 19th century did it become common to assume that each nation should have its own distinct government; this is the political philosophy of nationalism. In fact, Jews had a remarkable degree of self-government until the 19th century. So long as Jews lived in their ghettos, they were allowed to collect their own taxes, run their own courts, and otherwise behave as citizens of a landless and distinctly second-class Jewish nation.
Of course, Judaism is a religion, and it is this religion that forms the central element of the Jewish culture that binds Jews together as a nation. It is the religion that defines foods as being kosher and non-kosher, and this underlies Jewish cuisine. It is the religion that sets the calendar of Jewish feast and fast days, and it is the religion that has preserved the Hebrew language.
Is Judaism an ethnicity? In short, not any more. Although Judaism arose out of a single ethnicity in the Middle East, there have always been conversions into and out of the religion. Thus, there are those who may have been ethnically part of the original group who are no longer part of Judaism, and those of other ethnic groups who have converted into Judaism.
If you are referring to a nation in the sense of race, Judaism is not a nation. People are free to convert into Judaism; once converted, they are considered the same as if they were born Jewish. This is not true for a race.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/are-jews-a-nation-or-a-religion
Nationality is a legal relationship between an individual person and a state. In the context of referencing the: Cherokee Nation, Aryan Nation, or, Nation of Islam, it is understood that 'nation' doesn't pertain to nationality in the general sense, rather an affiliation.
At the risk of showing my ignorance of history...
Wouldnt a Jew, as a nationality be an Israelite?
At the risk of showing my ignorance of history...
Wouldnt a Jew, as a nationality be an Israelite?
That is my contention. Judaism is a religion. I am not a Jew, I am an American, who if I would be religious, we be Jewish.
Sorry, despite this explanation, I don't buy the 'Jewish is both a religion and a nationality. By the same definition you could say that Christianity is a nation.
Judaism can be thought of as being simultaneously a religion, a nationality and a culture.
Throughout the middle ages and into the 20th century, most of the European world agreed that Jews constituted a distinct nation. This concept of nation does not require that a nation have either a territory nor a government, but rather, it identifies, as a nation any distinct group of people with a common language and culture. Only in the 19th century did it become common to assume that each nation should have its own distinct government; this is the political philosophy of nationalism. In fact, Jews had a remarkable degree of self-government until the 19th century. So long as Jews lived in their ghettos, they were allowed to collect their own taxes, run their own courts, and otherwise behave as citizens of a landless and distinctly second-class Jewish nation.
Of course, Judaism is a religion, and it is this religion that forms the central element of the Jewish culture that binds Jews together as a nation. It is the religion that defines foods as being kosher and non-kosher, and this underlies Jewish cuisine. It is the religion that sets the calendar of Jewish feast and fast days, and it is the religion that has preserved the Hebrew language.
Is Judaism an ethnicity? In short, not any more. Although Judaism arose out of a single ethnicity in the Middle East, there have always been conversions into and out of the religion. Thus, there are those who may have been ethnically part of the original group who are no longer part of Judaism, and those of other ethnic groups who have converted into Judaism.
If you are referring to a nation in the sense of race, Judaism is not a nation. People are free to convert into Judaism; once converted, they are considered the same as if they were born Jewish. This is not true for a race.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/are-jews-a-nation-or-a-religion
Nationality is a legal relationship between an individual person and a state. In the context of referencing the: Cherokee Nation, Aryan Nation, or, Nation of Islam, it is understood that 'nation' doesn't pertain to nationality in the general sense, rather an affiliation.
You can buy it or not but it is what it is. Like Alex said. Passports would say under nationality.... Russian, Polish, Uzbek, Ukrainian, Jew! And when you came to the US using your passport your nationality was listed as Jewish and the US gov accepts that. So does the English, Australian, German, Dutch, French gov..
The idea is that it's the 10 lost tribes who have spread amongst other countries.
Having said that, I agree with you but I'm not religious and I don't make the rules
Like, my cousin’s husband is a self proclaimed Athiest Jew (I still don’t know what this means) and all he does is prattle on about victimization and is terrified that Trump is going to send the new Gestapo and snatch him off the street in broad daylight because he’s Jewish.
It gets really hard to sympathize about anything with these folks.
Never mind that Trumps son in-law is Jewish.
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Jewish is both a religion and a nationality.
You could say that you're a French Catholic or a American Protestant or a Greek Orthodox. Where as if you were Jewish you'd say you're a Jew from France or a Jew from Greece. In other words you are an American who happens to be born Christian meanwhile, if you were a Jew you'd be Jewish who happened to be born in America.
Ok so basically one gets to still self identify thus conferring if not outright demanding special protected victim status without having to actually do anything in accordance with their religious beliefs if they actually practiced them.
Seems legit.
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Ok so basically one gets to still self identify thus conferring if not outright demanding special protected victim status without having to actually do anything in accordance with their religious beliefs if they actually practiced them.
Seems legit.
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As far as I remember there was no demanding. At least for that part of the world you were told, period. If you didn't like it you could always opt for re-education camp. You couldn't argue that your parents were born in Russia, you were born in Russia, Russia is your language and culture so this you should be treated as such.
I think a lot of this had to do with how Jews were treated throughout history in Europe. Around the 1500s most were chased out of Germany. Which is why today many E. European Jews have German last names. Wherever they moved they stayed in their group or were forced to. So they became their own little world.
Ok so basically one gets to still self identify thus conferring if not outright demanding special protected victim status without having to actually do anything in accordance with their religious beliefs if they actually practiced them.
Seems legit.
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Not sure how much protection this received in the Soviet Union. It seems it was more of a way to openly discriminate. My mom has to go and plead with teachers in my elementary school to let the Jewish kid into their class. One teacher agreed, she had 4 Jewish kids in her 1st grade class. The other two has zero.
The point I was making is that Soviet Jews had it beaten into them that they were not Ukrainians or Russians, they were Jews. When they came here, that mindset remained.
Personally I don’t believe that “Jewish” is a nationality any more than Baptist, Catholic LDS, et al.
There is the Jewish religion, the Jewish nation - Israel - and then there is the Jewish or Hebrew race if one is a descendant of one of the 12 tribes of Judah. So one can be a member of the Jewish race, but not believe in God and thus be an Atheist Jew. To take it further, a person can be ethnically a Jew if he's a descendant of one of the 12 tribes, a Christian if he accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior, and an American if he happened to be born in the U. S.
There has been an effort in Israel by fundamental Jews to test the DNA of every citizen. Their hope is to someday rebuild the Temple and reinstate all of the offices and ceremonies outlined in the Levitic and Mosaic Covenants, but to do so would require that they identify what citizens belong to the various tribes. Personally, I understand their desire and motivation, but I don't know how they can match the various DNA strands to their specific tribe.
At the risk of showing my ignorance of history...
Wouldnt a Jew, as a nationality be an Israelite?
The idea is that it's the 10 lost tribes who have spread amongst other countries.
Something that I've found kind of confusing, we are dead set against Islamic religious theocracies, but yet, as majority Christians, we support the Government of Israel which essentially restricts rights based on religious afilliation and beliefs.
I'm not particularly woke, but how is this much different than what the Muslims we villify act:
Intermarriage is prohibited by the Jewish Halakha. In the case of mixed Arab-Jewish marriages, emotions run especially high. A 2007 opinion survey found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage was equivalent to national treason. A group of Jewish men in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Pisgat Ze'ev started patrolling the neighborhood to stop Jewish women from dating Arab men. The municipality of Petah Tikva has also announced an initiative to providing a telephone hotline for friends and family to report Jewish girls who date Arab men as well as psychologists to provide counselling. The city of Kiryat Gat launched a campaign in schools to warn Jewish girls against dating local Bedouin men.
Hmm?
Something that I've found kind of confusing, we are dead set against Islamic religious theocracies, but yet, as majority Christians, we support the Government of Israel which essentially restricts rights based on religious afilliation and beliefs.
I'm not particularly woke, but how is this much different than what the Muslims we villify act:
Intermarriage is prohibited by the Jewish Halakha. In the case of mixed Arab-Jewish marriages, emotions run especially high. A 2007 opinion survey found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage was equivalent to national treason. A group of Jewish men in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Pisgat Ze'ev started patrolling the neighborhood to stop Jewish women from dating Arab men. The municipality of Petah Tikva has also announced an initiative to providing a telephone hotline for friends and family to report Jewish girls who date Arab men as well as psychologists to provide counselling. The city of Kiryat Gat launched a campaign in schools to warn Jewish girls against dating local Bedouin men.
Hmm?
I'm not sure the State of Israel restricts rights but there are areas in Israel where you don't want to go to depending on who you are or what you do. You can drive in Israel on Saturday but drive down the wrong street and the residents will literally stone you....to death if you don't move your ass fast enough.
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-25-19, 20:31
Arabs seem to have more inherent human rights in Israel than anywhere else in the ME?
Nation seems like the wrong word. Ethnicity? Christianity seemed to pick up the Romans penchant for assimilating new areas and keeping a lot of the local culture and norms around and re-purpose them under ‘new management’. Judaism never was as evangelical(?) about new members, so almost be default they are familially related. So they share ‘blood’, they have the same religion , and if they have strayed from religion, they still keep a lot of the common cultural values. So culture? ethnicity? Kind of unique, especially considering the length of time.
Except it wasn't the first time.
1) Armenian Genocide, 1915, 1.5M killed systematically. No gas chambers but otherwise very similar to Nazi actions. Separating men from women & children, death marches, etc.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Armenian_Genocide
2) Holodomor, intentional genocide of Ukrainian people by USSR, 1932-33. Systematic starvation of a population. It was in no way some "random act of god/nature" accident as the USSR long pretended. Death toll estimates vary but best estimates are in the 2.4M-7.5M range.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Holodomor
3) On a far smaller scale, but using concentration camps to imprison and kill off an ethnically different population wasn't new either, as the British used them against Boer (Dutch settler) civilians in 1900-1902:
https://infogalactic.com/info/Second_Boer_War#Concentration_camps_.281900.E2.80.931902.29
They tried, none of them came close to the German number which most put above 15 million. Stalin probably killed more in the long term, but even there the numbers are close.
Not sure how much protection this received in the Soviet Union. It seems it was more of a way to openly discriminate. My mom has to go and plead with teachers in my elementary school to let the Jewish kid into their class. One teacher agreed, she had 4 Jewish kids in her 1st grade class. The other two has zero.
The point I was making is that Soviet Jews had it beaten into them that they were not Ukrainians or Russians, they were Jews. When they came here, that mindset remained.
Personally I don’t believe that “Jewish” is a nationality any more than Baptist, Catholic LDS, et al.
We’re not living in the USSR at present so?
Like I get it, bad shit happened to different folks all throughout history.
Idk, like folks just need to get over themselves nowadays.
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MountainRaven
09-25-19, 22:28
Judaism ceased to be considered a religion and began to be considered a nationality or ethnicity in Europe when it stopped being cool to discriminate against people because of their religion but it suddenly became cool to discriminate against people because of their ethnicity.
IOW, it had been poor form to discriminate against someone who was a different race and belonged to the same denomination as you, but was just fine to discriminate against someone who was the same race but went to a different church - faithfully serving God and achieving salvation was the most important thing, skin color is just skin color*. Once the Enlightenment got rolling and people stopped worrying so much about religion, then it became a race thing: An intelligent person might choose how they worship God and that's fine, but there's no escaping the curse of poor genetics of being Irish, Slavic, Arab, African, &c.
So how does the enlightened gentleman justify his continued discrimination against Jews? Make them a race of genetically inferior people. (This idea of Jews as a race rather than as a religion, of course, was a cornerstone of Nazi ideology.)
*This might sound great in theory, but it just meant that it was OK to beat and kill people who were Jews, Catholics, heretics, Muslims, apostates, whatever. You know what you've read about Shi'ites and Sunnis and so forth? Same thing, just a different continent. The German (and French, Polish, Russian, &c.) distaste for Jews long pre-dated the idea that Judaism is a race, rather than a religion.
Dr. Bullseye
09-25-19, 23:39
Wrong. As a tribe member have to speak up, His research is precursory. The number of Jews involved in active fighting, as in partisan, was approximately 65,000 with the exact number thought to be higher but the fluidity, especially on the Eastern Front, makes the exact number impossible to determine.
Way too complex to get into on a forum.
Complex? Are you saying we are too stupid to appreciate documentation of your point? I know you have it and can share it with us.
We’re not living in the USSR at present so?
Like I get it, bad shit happened to different folks all throughout history.
Idk, like folks just need to get over themselves nowadays.
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Societal and tribal history informs present perceptions. Not saying it is right or wrong, it just is (but if I had to say, it is wrong, because it becomes an excuse and a stumbling block). I think it's great when it adds to the wealth of a people (i.e., my mother always thought growing up poor without indoor plumbing in rural NC made her a better and stronger person), but not great when it becomes and excuse on why people can't overcome or move forward (i.e., my mother-in-law thought growing up poor without indoor plumbing in rural western New York made her a victim and uses it as an excuse).
Something that I've found kind of confusing, we are dead set against Islamic religious theocracies, but yet, as majority Christians, we support the Government of Israel which essentially restricts rights based on religious afilliation and beliefs.
I'm not particularly woke, but how is this much different than what the Muslims we villify act:
Intermarriage is prohibited by the Jewish Halakha. In the case of mixed Arab-Jewish marriages, emotions run especially high. A 2007 opinion survey found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage was equivalent to national treason. A group of Jewish men in the Jerusalem neighborhood of Pisgat Ze'ev started patrolling the neighborhood to stop Jewish women from dating Arab men. The municipality of Petah Tikva has also announced an initiative to providing a telephone hotline for friends and family to report Jewish girls who date Arab men as well as psychologists to provide counselling. The city of Kiryat Gat launched a campaign in schools to warn Jewish girls against dating local Bedouin men.
Hmm?
I’ve read what you write and know you think things through, so I think you can counter your own suggestion here.
This may just be the Radler I been dranking but like I believe 99% of our problems could be solved if everyone kept it in the church/synagogue/mosque/temple:Witches Coven and just be excellent to each other like from Bill &Ted
This may just be the Radler I been dranking but like I believe 99% of our problems could be solved if everyone kept it in the church/synagogue/mosque/temple:Witches Coven and just be excellent to each other like from Bill &Ted
Easier said than done. The human brain loves to categorize, even if categories don't follow a logical basis. And honestly even if we all looked exactly like race A, believed only in religion B and adhered to legal / moral code C we'd still find a way to find differences and categorize everyone accordingly.
It seems like the only thing everyone can agree on is we don't particularly trust that group over there even when the classification for "that group" is something completely arbitrary and typically a condition of birth rather than actions.
I’ve read what you write and know you think things through, so I think you can counter your own suggestion here.
Well it was a little hyperbolic, I will agree. Howsomeever, that doesn't mean that at the root my statements are unfounded.
The_War_Wagon
09-27-19, 05:50
It's funny when people talk about "If it was ME, I'd have done this or I'd have done that" and it's a f'cking joke. They wouldn't have done shit because they couldn't imagine what was ahead of them. And just when they thought, ok this is as bad as it gets, it usually got worse. And by the time you figure out exactly how bad it is actually gonna get, the time for "do this or do that" was a long time ago and you don't really have any control over your life or any choices any more.
Yes. When I see Anqueefa goons getting uppity on TV, it fills me with a deep, DEEP, desire, to turn in my guns. :no:
A lot of this would have/could have been avoided if we weren't so heavily wooed by the Brits. They just hate (said in my best British blue-blood accent) to see their Empire crumble, and, with some very powerful lobbyists in the US, pulled us into the ME, in which we never have been able to extricate ourselves.
While I was a student at the University of Arizona (1978-1982), I had as neighbors an elderly couple who were German-Jews. They had both been in Auschwitz but did not meet until after the war. I had met them while I had a part-time job helping out with a Rosh Hashanah radio broadcast at the nearby Temple Emanu-El.
This little couple were in their 80's when I knew them and both still had their Auschwitz numbers tattooed on their forearms. We spent a lot of time talking about their lives, and that of my new father-in-law who was in the D-Day invasion at Omaha Beach. This elderly Jewish man was a Violinist with the Berlin Philharmonic when Hitler came to power, and his future wife was a Professor of Philosophy at Humbolt University in Berlin. Both were highly educated and in the upper part of German society prior to Hitler.
In my conversations with them, I got the impression they never thought the round-up of Jews would encompass the whole of society, and they were in a kind in denial that it would happen to them. They were productive citizens contributing to the betterment of German society, and it was beyond their ability to comprehend the totality of the evil that happened so fast.
I kept in touch with both until their deaths in the early 1990's. My life was better in knowing them and their story.
I think what you say was as it was for just about everyone, and even to this day in terms of denial types. etc. Reports of those camps, etc did make their way to the allies, but they too dismissed them for the most part as being wildly overblown and just didn't believe it. I knew someone who liberated one of of those camps, and even on seeing it, he said he and others were literally unable to really process it. It's also a large part of why it's happened since and "never again" does not really appear to mean chit and the reality is, you and you alone will likely be the only resistance to such a thing unless/until someone somewhere actually believes it's happening and then actually decides what, if anything to do about it. I mean, do we need to look any further than Rwanda? They were literally there on the ground and didn't do a damn thing. This is spot on:
https://www.foxnews.com/story/the-next-international-right
I went to see Simon Wiesenthal talk in the late mid 90s. It was by far the best talk I have seen and again, it seemed most in the audience really didn't "get it."
A lot of this would have/could have been avoided if we weren't so heavily wooed by the Brits. They just hate (said in my best British blue-blood accent) to see their Empire crumble, and, with some very powerful lobbyists in the US, pulled us into the ME, in which we never have been able to extricate ourselves.
Well, if you want to go back that far, a lot of it would have been avoided if the first Zionists had arrived with the intent of co-existing with the folks inhabiting the land.
Read the history, everybody has fvcked everybody in that circle jerk at least one time or another.
I don't know for sure what an answer that will work is, I have ideas (which most "but, but, tribes..." folks won't agree with) but what I do know for certain is that business as usual will never get it done.
That particular area of the ME will remain a festering sore until someone acts like the grown up in the room.
JMO worth what I was paid to give it.
Well, if you want to go back that far, a lot of it would have been avoided if the first Zionists had arrived with the intent of co-existing with the folks inhabiting the land.
Read the history, everybody has fvcked everybody in that circle jerk at least one time or another.
I don't know for sure what an answer that will work is, I have ideas (which most "but, but, tribes..." folks won't agree with) but what I do know for certain is that business as usual will never get it done.
That particular area of the ME will remain a festering sore until someone acts like the grown up in the room.
JMO worth what I was paid to give it.
Yeah, mostly true. Irgun and the Stern gang helped pioneer modern terrorism including the bombing of the King David hotel. Apologists will try and excuse it because a warning phone call was made, but honestly what modern military force would abandon their established HQ over a phone call bomb threat.
Palestine was a British territory and both groups were interested in driving out the current landlord. They didn't fight a war of freedom against oppression, in a real sense they fought a war of "lebensraum." Obviously the same can be said for the US and the western expansion aka manifest destiny where we did some pretty reprehensible things in what mostly amounted to a land grab.
I think it's surprising that a group heavily comprised of European jews who survived the nazis would then engage in very similar activities, but I have heard it stated that "because they survived" their actions were a matter of necessity and while it sounds contradictory I also understand what they mean.
And while I question the morality of what was done to drive out the British and what was later done to drive out the arabs, including actions that would very much qualify as terrorism against a population with a lot of innocent non combatants, those displaced palestinians would then turn right around and use the same reprehensible actions to try and reclaim "their" homeland and IMO crossed the line in 1972 at Munich and the ongoing cultural war culminated with the 9-11 attacks that were so barbaric that even most Saudis won't own up to it and will even claim Israel was responsible.
And any sympathies I might have had with displaced Palestinians finally resolved themselves when I saw Palestinians dancing in the streets on 9-11.
Obviously when several groups of people believe God specifically deeded them a plot of land, there are going to be problems and those problems have been going on for a long, long time and given the fundamental nature of the religions and politics involved, including those willing to die for the cause, I see no end in sight ever.
Naturally my true sympathies are with the innocent victims on both sides who neither participate in or support the conflicts as they always suffer the most. I sort of thing if forced integration was such a good idea for this country then why aren't we advocating it there, but I suppose I already know that answer as well.
Racism / tribalism is pretty much always wrong, but if my family had almost completely been eradicated based upon racism / tribalism I probably wouldn't be as capable of objective thinking and enlightened ideas.
Well, if you want to go back that far, a lot of it would have been avoided if the first Zionists had arrived with the intent of co-existing with the folks inhabiting the land.
Read the history, everybody has fvcked everybody in that circle jerk at least one time or another.
I don't know for sure what an answer that will work is, I have ideas (which most "but, but, tribes..." folks won't agree with) but what I do know for certain is that business as usual will never get it done.
That particular area of the ME will remain a festering sore until someone acts like the grown up in the room.
JMO worth what I was paid to give it.
And with which I largely agree. There's a whole lotta shared culpability for the shit sandwich that region has become, and while we own some of it, we don't own all of it.
I wish the ME would just royal rumble it and be done. Spoils go to the victors and the world could move on.
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I wish the ME would just royal rumble it and be done. Spoils go to the victors and the world could move on.
Even though I'm pretty much appalled at the way the Israeli government runs things, that can't happen.
If we didn't back Israel, they would be overwhelmed and cease to exist as a nation. However, before that happened they would go nuclear.
Not sure if they have enough to get everyone they would want to, but I wouldn't want to gamble it wouldn't spread beyond the ME.
Aside from that, you have the loss of untold thousands of folks who are just going through life, keeping their heads down, minding their own business, just wanting to be left alone to live and let live.
If we didn't back Israel, they would be overwhelmed and cease to exist as a nation. However, before that happened they would go nuclear.
This reminds me of something I heard in my first career, 30 years ago, from a career spook who spent almost 30 years in the ME. Paraphrasing, the only one as crazy as Iran is Israel.
I wish the ME would just royal rumble it and be done. Spoils go to the victors and the world could move on.
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Seems to me they did and Israel ended up with a lot of new territory.
But the real problem seems to be that nobody wants to "live and let live." Sadat was shot by his own people for negotiating with Israel, Rabin was shot by his own people for negotiating with the Pali's.
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