View Full Version : Airstrikes launched as Turkey begins northern Syria military operation
I'm conflicted by this latest move also know the full details are obscured by the media no doubt.
We wouldn't be there in the first place if not due to the total incompetence of the prior admin who attempted to arm the "moderate" rebels as if there was such a thing in that region. We never should have been there in the first place and Trump did run on getting 'Muricans out of these forever wars created by prior admins, and unlike that last bunch for decades on decades, actually appears to be following through with what he ran on. Is the timing wrong? I don't know.
I think we should support the Kurds as best we can, but we're not the police or rulers of the region either. We could offer the Kurds CAS if the Turks attack, but the Turks are also supposed to be allies and such (they aint, but that's another topic...) but for obvious reasons, bombing the Turks would be bad mojo.
Is this the right/wrong time to leave? If not now, when?
"Turkey has launched its military operation in northern Syria, with airstrikes hitting the border towns of Ras al Ain and Tell Abaid.
Turkish president Tayyip Recep Erdogan confirmed the news on Twitter, writing: "Our aim is to destroy the terror corridor which is trying to be established on our southern border and to bring peace and peace to the region.
"With Peace Spring Operation, we will eliminate the terrorist threat to our country. Thanks to the SAFE ZONE we will establish, we will ensure that Syrian refugees return to their countries."
https://news.sky.com/story/airstrikes-launched-as-turkey-begins-northern-syria-military-operation-11831129?
Outlander Systems
10-09-19, 09:53
It's always the right time to leave.
What fate does, or does not, befall the Kurds is of no concern of me or mine. Our adventurism in MENA creates more problems than it solves.
Turkey is committing genocide against the Kurds while the rest of the world watches. The US is not the world's police force, but NATO and the UN should bring pressure against Turkey for the actions.
Turkey is committing genocide against the Kurds while the rest of the world watches. The US is not the world's police force, but NATO and the UN should bring pressure against Turkey for the actions.
Seems a tad early in the game for such assessments of the current situation.
Seems a tad early in the game for such assessments of the current situation.
Nothing new... been going on for years.
On topic: This has been brewing for some time now. I am kind of surprised it has taken them thos long.
Seems a tad early in the game for such assessments of the current situation.
The Turks have never shied away from publicly stating their desire to eradicate the Kurdish people. They would have already done so had we not intervened previously.
https://news.yahoo.com/militants-hit-us-backed-kurdish-062612736.html
Seems a tad early in the game for such assessments of the current situation.
I'd think the 41 years since 1978 is enough time.
Fck the turks. People say the Israelis are our only ally in the region, they are self serving to say the least. The kurds should be who we support int his region not Israel. That said, enough is enough. Its time to come home, let god sort them out.
The Turks have never shied away from publicly stating their desire to eradicate the Kurdish people.
https://news.yahoo.com/militants-hit-us-backed-kurdish-062612736.html
What did i post in the OP that differs? Some bombs landing is not = "Turkey is committing genocide against the Kurds while the rest of the world watches" watches. That's not to say that can't/wont happen, etc, but again, getting a tad ahead of yourself it seems.
The Q is, how do we prevent that from happening? Perhaps there's some back end mechanizations taking place on behalf of the Kurds from our side?
I don't know the answers but hoping it's not as cut and dry as the media and general TDS types are claiming.
Nothing new... been going on for years.
On topic: This has been brewing for some time now. I am kind of surprised it has taken them thos long.
What, for the Turks to attack? I'm assuming our footprint in the area was what prevented that no? Have we just green lighted a full on push to wipe the Kurds out by Turkey?
I didn't think we had that many personnel left in that area? Maybe less than 100 Special Operations soldiers doing target identification for air strikes and advisers.
Erdogan is a mini Hitler and is absolutely willing to commit genocide against ethnic groups like the Kurds. This kind of mindset is embedded deeply in Turkey's history and cultural DNA. Check out the history of the Armenian genocide; one of horrors of the 20th century that is often overlooked due to the Holocaust and the fact it's in a region we didn't much care about at the time. In fact we still don't acknowledge what happened in 1915 as a 'genocide' and this is likely because of our alliance with Turkey. Now they're doing it again, and hiding behind their status as "NATO ally" to get away with murder, literally.
Use every peaceful means possible--NATO, UN--to bring Turkey to its knees. Including pulling all economic aid, and economic sanctions. And meanwhile offer direct humanitarian aid to the Kurds. If that fails, use air power to establish a real "safe zone" in northern Syria. Don't want to see boots on the ground either, I'm sick to death of that whole region and sending our young countrymen to die there, only to have our gains lost the moment we leave and the next terrorist, psychotic mullah, or tin-pot dictator steps up to replace the previous ones. But IMHO we should also not sit idly by while an entire people group is being wiped out, when we have the means to help in some ways other than combat troops on the ground.
I'd think the 41 years since 1978 is enough time.
Fck the turks. People say the Israelis are our only ally in the region, they are self serving to say the least. The kurds should be who we support int his region not Israel. That said, enough is enough. Its time to come home, let god sort them out.
That's always been a goal of Turkey is known for sure, and how/why the Turks are NATO "allies" is a mystery to me, but that's a another topic really.
I didn't think we had that many personnel left in that area? Maybe less than 100 Special Operations soldiers doing target identification for air strikes.
Trump said around 50 ;)
Erdogan is a mini Hitler and is absolutely willing to commit genocide against ethnic groups like the Kurds. This kind of mindset is embedded deeply in Turkey's history and cultural DNA. Check out the history of the Armenian genocide; one of horrors of the 20th century that is often overlooked due to the Holocaust and the fact it's in a region we didn't much care about at the time. In fact we still don't acknowledge what happened in 1915 as a 'genocide' and this is likely because of our alliance with Turkey. Now they're doing it again, and hiding behind their status as "NATO ally" to get away with murder, literally.
Use every peaceful means possible--NATO, UN--to bring Turkey to its knees. Including pulling all economic aid, and economic sanctions. And meanwhile offer direct humanitarian aid to the Kurds. If that fails, use air power to establish a real "safe zone" in northern Syria. Don't want to see boots on the ground either, I'm sick to death of that whole region and sending our young countrymen to die there, only to have our gains lost the moment we live and the next terrorist, psychotic mullah, or tin-pot dictator steps up to replace the previous ones. But IMHO we should also not sit idly by while an entire people group is being wiped out, when we have the means to help in some ways other than combat troops on the ground.
Not claiming otherwise and the fact is, don't think there's any country in the region unwilling to commit genocide against ethnic groups. They're all fu%ed and about 500-1000 years behind the west in that and other respects.
What did i post in the OP that differs? Some bombs landing is not = "Turkey is committing genocide against the Kurds while the rest of the world watches" watches. That's not to say that can't/wont happen, etc, but again, getting a tad ahead of yourself it seems.
The Q is, how do we prevent that from happening? Perhaps there's some back end mechanizations taking place on behalf of the Kurds from our side?
I don't know the answers but hoping it's not as cut and dry as the media and general TDS types are claiming.
The Turks are shelling Kurdish villages solely on the basis of their ethnicity. How many Kurds have to die before you call it genocide?
Are there ever any permanent solutions to problems in that part of the world from a western perspective? If we had carved out a section of northeastern Syria and northern Iraq and called it the Nation of Kurdistan, with special enclaves for the Yazidis ethnic group, it would have required a permanent US military base there just to provide security. Is that something the American public wants? I feel sorry for the Kurds and the Yazidis people, and we probably will see their destruction, but ultimately is a permanent US presence there in OUR best interest?
I have mixed feelings on all of this.
I'd think the 41 years since 1978 is enough time.
Fck the turks. People say the Israelis are our only ally in the region, they are self serving to say the least. The kurds should be who we support int his region not Israel. That said, enough is enough. Its time to come home, let god sort them out.
I have said in another thread that I have a friend who spent 30 years in the intelligence community, all of which in the middle east, who said the only people he trusts less than the Israelis are the Turkish.
As for the Kurds, they're like every other ethnic group in every other region, we will support them when it's convenient to us, and leave them to die when it's not. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it is what it is. Native Americans, montagnards, mujahideen, the list goes on and on.
Once upon a time everyone knew where Turkey stood. Not any longer. Are they pro Iranian? Pro-Russian? Neither?
As for this particular operation, I'm watching with a wary eye. I really do not trust their desire to destroy a corridor of terror than them seizing an opportunity to get rid of people they don't like and arm rebels they do.
Digital_Damage
10-09-19, 12:30
I guess we will see what spineless Trump does when they cross his redline....
"ohhh noooesss! We will ban fish imports from Turkey! That is what my monumental intelligence tells me to do."
I guess we will see what spineless Trump does when they cross his redline....
"ohhh noooesss! We will ban fish imports from Turkey! That is what my monumental intelligence tells me to do."
Why would we care? Turkey and the US have the same goal in that area. They need to go in as they are not hamstrung by a bunch of libtards.
morbidbattlecry
10-09-19, 13:19
The U.S. screwing our allies is nothing new, especially with this administration. I'm surprised anyone works with us anymore frankly.
Grand58742
10-09-19, 13:27
We should have set up a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq once OIF was over.
Screw Turkey, Syria and Iran.
Boba Fett v2
10-09-19, 13:41
I fought along side the Peshmerga forces during Operation Restoring Rights and they've been a great asset in our efforts to combating AQI, ISIS, etc. during the GWOT in terms of both combat support and direct action. In short, this is f*cked up.
. ..Check out the history of the Armenian genocide...
You might want to take your own advice here. Kurds were heavily involved, on the killing side.
It is a complicated mess, a long time coming, and there is no real long term solution. No way to actually win. Keeping a crap status quo going forever is not a win.
Let keeping ISIS from moving back in be someone else's problem for once. We absolutely should hold Turkey to minimizing civilian casualties.
Outlander Systems
10-09-19, 13:46
You dipshits arguing for muh Kurds realize that the main political Kurdish body in Turkey are literal ****ing Marxist Communists, right?
When the Kurds were fighting our enemies and being armed by Germany most people here were 100% in support of them and saying they were a great ally and deserved their own state. Now that our current commander in chief has left them to the dogs suddenly it's "not our problem." The hypocrisy round here can be crazy.
The Kurds will remember this next time we need them for something. So will other people. Trump's foreign policy amounts to throwing darts at a wall at this point. Can't wait for the "but Obama was worse" replies. I don't think he was by a long-shot, but regardless hes not president anymore is he?
Digital_Damage
10-09-19, 14:02
I fought along side the Peshmerga forces during Operation Restoring Rights and they've been a great asset in our efforts to combating AQI, ISIS, etc. during the GWOT in terms of both combat support and direct action. In short, this is f*cked up.
Completely ****ed up... not a single person in know understands this move. All will follow the chain... but make no mistake they all think he is a ****ing idiot now.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-09-19, 14:03
When the Kurds were fighting our enemies and being armed by Germany most people here were 100% in support of them and saying they were a great ally and deserved their own state. Now that our current commander in chief has left them to the dogs suddenly it's "not our problem." The hypocrisy round here can be crazy.
The Kurds will remember this next time we need them for something. So will other people. Trump's foreign policy amounts to throwing darts at a wall at this point. Can't wait for the "but Obama was worse" replies. I don't think he was by a long-shot, but regardless hes not president anymore is he?
The Kurds seem like a decent group of people. At least the ones in Northern Iraq. I despise Turkey. With that being said how long do we stay in Syria to protect them? Forever? Because if we stay another 10 years and then leave Turkey will move in right after we leave then as well. The Kurds will never be strong enough to fend off Turkey.
And I have no love for Trump but he did run on pulling troops out of places. You can't say his foreign policy is darts when he is pulling guys out of a combat zone just like he said he was going to do in the campaign. Also, it's probably difficult to have any kind of successful policy on anything when you have half the deep state actively trying to undermine you since the day you took office.
You might want to take your own advice here. Kurds were heavily involved, on the killing side.
It is a complicated mess, a long time coming, and there is no real long term solution. No way to actually win. Keeping a crap status quo going forever is not a win.
Let keeping ISIS from moving back in be someone else's problem for once. We absolutely should hold Turkey to minimizing civilian casualties.
It is very misleading to equate the two, though. The Armenian genocide was a systematic, state-sponsored genocide that was the official policy of the Ottoman government. There were individual Kurdish tribes that participated, but this was neither systematic nor universal. Further, many modern Kurdish whose tribes participated have acknowledge and disavowed the actions of their ancestors. Compare this to approximately the way we'd view modern Japan or Germany--not perfect by a long shot, but they've disavowed the actions of their ancestors and we treat them as allies at this point. Contrast this with the Turkish government today that neither acknowledges nor disavows their official policy and responsibility for the Armenian genocide.
It *is* a complicated mess with no easy solution--and sending our guys there on the ground is not going to help IMHO. But preventing genocide is always worth doing, even if all you're doing is helping somebody to survive another day. The fact that they are potential strong allies in the region--something we need badly--makes it more of a priority to help them vs perhaps other places where we'd have less urgent of a national interest.
The U.S. screwing our allies is nothing new, especially with this administration. I'm surprised anyone works with us anymore frankly.
This one? You must have been in a coma for the a$$clown that activity worked at destroying relationships for 8 years.
The Kurds seem like a decent group of people. At least the ones in Northern Iraq. I despise Turkey. With that being said how long do we stay in Syria to protect them? Forever? Because if we stay another 10 years and then leave Turkey will move in right after we leave then as well. The Kurds will never be strong enough to fend off Turkey.
And I have no love for Trump but he did run on pulling troops out of places. You can't say his foreign policy is darts when he is pulling guys out of a combat zone just like he said he was going to do in the campaign. Also, it's probably difficult to have any kind of successful policy on anything when you have half the deep state actively trying to undermine you since the day you took office.
There is a difference in completing troop pull out goals and disregarding an obvious genocide.
I'm not sure what the deep state is, but I'm also not wearing a tin foil hat so maybe I don't pick up that radio station.
The Kurds seem like a decent group of people. At least the ones in Northern Iraq. I despise Turkey. With that being said how long do we stay in Syria to protect them? Forever? Because if we stay another 10 years and then leave Turkey will move in right after we leave then as well. The Kurds will never be strong enough to fend off Turkey.
And I have no love for Trump but he did run on pulling troops out of places. You can't say his foreign policy is darts when he is pulling guys out of a combat zone just like he said he was going to do in the campaign. Also, it's probably difficult to have any kind of successful policy on anything when you have half the deep state actively trying to undermine you since the day you took office.
There is a difference in completing troop pull out goals and disregarding an obvious genocide.
I'm not sure what the deep state is, but I also don't listen to Alex Jones or wear a tin foil hat.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-09-19, 14:48
There is a difference in completing troop pull out goals and disregarding an obvious genocide.
I'm not sure what the deep state is, but I also don't listen to Alex Jones or wear a tin foil hat.
You know exactly what I am talking about when I say deep state. Unelected career federal employees. And no, I don't listen to Alex Jones, never have, and only own a partial tin foil hat.
If you don't think members of both parties as well as above mentioned federal employees have been trying to undermine Trump from day one I am not sure what else to say. Like Trump or not nobody seems to want him in office other than those that voted for him.
Edit to add,
Again I ask. How long do we stay there? Do we think if we stay for one more year Turkey will forget about that area? 10 more years? 20? Do we provide CAS and bomb Turkish convoys? I would be ok with that but we have to understand what that would entail and what it would probably lead to. I am no fan of the Turks but I am not sure what we are supposed to do or for how long. Is it worth keeping 50-100 guys there to keep the Turks out? Maybe it is.
I fought along side the Peshmerga forces during Operation Restoring Rights and they've been a great asset in our efforts to combating AQI, ISIS, etc. during the GWOT in terms of both combat support and direct action. In short, this is f*cked up.
My understanding is culturally they're more moderate and secular and seem to be more democratic compared to others in the region.
Outlander Systems
10-09-19, 15:25
Oh, they're secular alright...
My understanding is culturally they're more moderate and secular and seem to be more democratic compared to others in the region.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-09-19, 15:25
Kurds seem like the Polish of the ME. Kind of stuck between much larger empires and powers.
My biggest question is, "Why now?".
Boba Fett v2
10-09-19, 15:26
You know exactly what I am talking about when I say deep state. Unelected career federal employees. And no, I don't listen to Alex Jones, never have, and only own a partial tin foil hat.
If you don't think members of both parties as well as above mentioned federal employees have been trying to undermine Trump from day one I am not sure what else to say. Like Trump or not nobody seems to want him in office other than those that voted for him.
There's always been agents within government trying to undermine efforts of a sitting president. What's new? Are we saying Trumps own words, action (or inaction) and deeds haven't contributed to his own undoing? His behavior is on full display for all the world to see, and it wouldn't take much effort to undermine someone who does a damn good job of making himself look bad and makes no apologies about it. You elect morally corrupt people, you get morally corrupt leadership. That said, I can't in good conscious vote for him for a second term. If he survives impeachment.
Later, guys.
That's always been a goal of Turkey is known for sure, and how/why the Turks are NATO "allies" is a mystery to me, but that's a another topic really.
They are NATO allies because we needed them as a strategic base in the Cold War. My dad spent several years at Incriclik Airbase, Adona, Turkey---only 35 miles from the Russian border..... Some of his observations on his time there-
1. We had nuclear weapons loaded on aircraft on the base despite it being in violation of a treaty with the Russians. There were aircrews that literally "bunked" with these aircraft-- The pilots sleeping right next to the planes in shifts! I want to say they were F105's?
2. There were REGULARLY reconnaissance planes that come and went out of the base that landed that were shot up....Pop said they would clear the base when one was supposed to arrive. It would land and taxi to a special hangar that was absolutely "off limits"....the planes were repaired, often repainted etc....and would leave days later- all kinds of planes that couldn't really be identified- experimental stuff etc.....It's where Francis Gary Powers was supposed to have landed for example.
3. He regularly interacted with the Turkish military as he was part of the base security force and they coordinated training etc.... Said that if they liked you, you could do no wrong- no better friends. If they did not like you, no worse enemies....
4. Generally, he enjoyed his time there. Went on leave to Beirut- the Riviera of the Middle East at the time.....
If we had carved out a section of northeastern Syria and northern Iraq and called it the Nation of Kurdistan, with special enclaves for the Yazidis ethnic group, it would have required a permanent US military base there just to provide security. Is that something the American public wants?
I'd be okay with that. I'd also be okay with a base in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict zone to settle that mess down.
Simply put, my belief is that God has blessed us so that we can, share the wealth, so to speak.
All nations should step in and do their part to stop genocide, starvation, etc. to the best of their ability. That they don't is not an excuse for us to do the same, especially in situations where we have exacerbated the problem.
In my opinion our mistakes have been trying to do things on the cheap, and, in our foreign policy, forgetting that the ends do not justify the means, something which has always bit us in the ass, aligning us with some pretty inhumane, corrupt regimes.
Trump said around 50 ;)
So an oversized Platoon of American forward observers and advisers was all that kept Turkey from moving into Syria, and possibly Iran stirring up more mischief and mayhem north of Erbil, Iraq?
Our commitment of manpower and money was negligible, with the exception of ordnance from air strikes and keeping those aerial assets over the theater of operations. I am guessing a Green Light was given to Turkey to have their way with that area, and exterminate Daesh (ISIS) once the Kurds release some 10,000 captives. This will be something to watch. A void always gets filled with something else once the US packs it in and leaves.
I have two young sons. I'm not willing to send either of them to die for the Kurds....and I won't ask other parents to send theirs to do something I wouldn't do myself. Is it unfortunate that the Kurds are in the position they are? Absolutely, but, we left them no worse than we found them- in fact, I will wager they are much better armed and trained now than ever before- it isn't like they haven't been at war essentially with Turkey since....forever..... Not my monkeys, not my Circus.
Like Trump or not nobody seems to want him in office other than those that voted for him.
I didn't want President Trump in office and I voted for him, at the time he was the lesser of two evils. I'm not even so sure that Hilary would have been worse at this point.
Had she been elected, we would still likely have a majority in both chambers of the Congress, and our 2nd Amendment Rights would, therefore be safer than they are now.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-09-19, 15:49
I didn't want President Trump in office and I voted for him, at the time he was the lesser of two evils. I'm not even so sure that Hilary would have been worse at this point.
Had she been elected, we would still likely have a majority in both chambers of the Congress, and our 2nd Amendment Rights would, therefore be safer than they are now.
I did the same. Possibly but there is no way to really know what really would have happened. Although it was probably time for a wrench to be thrown into our stagnant system and a non politician was the only type of person that was going to do that.
After WW2 and the extent of the Holocaust became known the world said “never again”. How many times since has mass genocide occurred with the free world sitting on the sidelines doing nothing ? Just something to think about.
Digital_Damage
10-09-19, 15:57
So an oversized Platoon of American forward observers and advisers was all that kept Turkey from moving into Syria, and possibly Iran stirring up more mischief and mayhem north of Erbil, Iraq?
Our commitment of manpower and money was negligible, with the exception of ordnance from air strikes and keeping those aerial assets over the theater of operations. I am guessing a Green Light was given to Turkey to have their way with that area, and exterminate Daesh (ISIS) once the Kurds release some 10,000 captives. This will be something to watch. A void always gets filled with something else once the US packs it in and leaves.
Exactly how ISIS got started to begin with...
The Kurds got more from us than we got from them. Don't act like we coerced them to help us against their interests.
There was never going to be a long term alliance, and for reasons that go way deeper than the lack of a State. Even a State in northern Iraq wouldn't keep the Kurds in Turkey from fighting the Turkish, with help from Kurds outside of Turkey. Which is EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ANYWAY.
Foreign relations have to be based on reality, not feels. I feel bad for the Kurds. Just not "get involved in another war in the middle east" bad.
I'm not talking about ignoring genocide, but it's far too soon to be throwing that word around.
Digital_Damage
10-09-19, 16:17
The Kurds got more from us than we got from them. Don't act like we coerced them to help us against their interests.
There was never going to be a long term alliance, and for reasons that go way deeper than the lack of a State. Even a State in northern Iraq wouldn't keep the Kurds in Turkey from fighting the Turkish, with help from Kurds outside of Turkey. Which is EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW ANYWAY.
Foreign relations have to be based on reality, not feels. I feel bad for the Kurds. Just not "get involved in another war in the middle east" bad.
I'm not talking about ignoring genocide, but it's far too soon to be throwing that word around.
The First attempt at genocide by systematically killing all the male Kurds by Iraq was not that long ago, just saying.
Besides.
How are our foreign relations with established international governments going... This guy always acts emotionally never logically.
Averageman
10-09-19, 18:29
What are you willing to lose in blood and treasure?
If you're going to risk American lives, lets at least be honest with people, lay it out and let it go through the House and Senate for a real vote.
Go look your Son in the eye and tell him that you're willing to sacrifice him in order to keep some illiterate, third world villager thriving in Asscrackistan.
This is a symptom of a Country that's willing to commit to war anywhere, everywhere because my Kids not going to be there.
If only we had invaded Iraq. Man, that would have gone so well it might have spread democracy across the middle east and stabilized the entire region.
I care not if an American President offends the sensibilities of a bunch of commie euro-weenies whose favorite president ever was Jimmy Carter.
morbidbattlecry
10-09-19, 18:53
This one? You must have been in a coma for the a$$clown that activity worked at destroying relationships for 8 years.
If that were true(which it's not) that doesn't make it ok then or now.
What are you willing to lose in blood and treasure?
If you're going to risk American lives, lets at least be honest with people, lay it out and let it go through the House and Senate for a real vote.
Go look your Son in the eye and tell him that you're willing to sacrifice him in order to keep some illiterate, third world villager thriving in Asscrackistan.
This is a symptom of a Country that's willing to commit to war anywhere, everywhere because my Kids not going to be there.
Exactly damn right!
Outlander Systems
10-09-19, 19:42
Based.
Redpilled.
What are you willing to lose in blood and treasure?
If you're going to risk American lives, lets at least be honest with people, lay it out and let it go through the House and Senate for a real vote.
Go look your Son in the eye and tell him that you're willing to sacrifice him in order to keep some illiterate, third world villager thriving in Asscrackistan.
This is a symptom of a Country that's willing to commit to war anywhere, everywhere because my Kids not going to be there.
Here's something I haven't seen discussed here.....Why would we be in favor of Communist Kurds? Because the PKK are exactly that, whereas our allies, the Peshmerga are not at risk in these strikes from what I understand.
A little digging shows the US had an ongoing effort to create a joint security operation with Turkey to create a buffer zone. In August we set up a joint command. The US had been trying to protect both the Kurds and Turkey's border. Trump didn't just wake up Tuesday and decide to pull US troops out. Turkey had already pulled out of the negotiations by announcing the attack.
It's understandable that domestic news kept this from being reported much at the time, but it's straight up fake news for reporters to ignore this context.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-09-19, 22:55
Here's something I haven't seen discussed here.....Why would we be in favor of Communist Kurds? Because the PKK are exactly that, whereas our allies, the Peshmerga are not at risk in these strikes from what I understand.
This.
The fake outrage over this is astounding.
Are there ever any permanent solutions to problems in that part of the world from a western perspective? If we had carved out a section of northeastern Syria and northern Iraq and called it the Nation of Kurdistan, with special enclaves for the Yazidis ethnic group, it would have required a permanent US military base there just to provide security. Is that something the American public wants? I feel sorry for the Kurds and the Yazidis people, and we probably will see their destruction, but ultimately is a permanent US presence there in OUR best interest?
I have mixed feelings on all of this.
That is exactly true! We can never stabilize any portion of the ME unless we permanently occupy it and govern it directly or by proxy. If we aren’t willing to do that then we either use air and satellites for surveillance and blasting or stay out. Absolutely do not put in ground troops unless ready to occupy permanently.
This area is not like 1945 Europe or Japan or even 1953 Korea. They will never accept what we consider civilization.
We went into Syria because Saudi Arabia was butt hurt about the Russian/Iran pipeline. We have to detach from the Saudi teat and let the Petro Dollar expire. Serious economic impact to us, but healthier for us long term and we would not be beholden to Wahhabis to stomp and get mired in battling every competitor they are scared of.
Grand58742
10-09-19, 23:32
My dad spent several years at Incriclik Airbase, Adona, Turkey---only 35 miles from the Russian border.....
FYI, Incirlik is nowhere near the Russian border.
Grand58742
10-10-19, 00:41
A little digging shows the US had an ongoing effort to create a joint security operation with Turkey to create a buffer zone. In August we set up a joint command. The US had been trying to protect both the Kurds and Turkey's border. Trump didn't just wake up Tuesday and decide to pull US troops out. Turkey had already pulled out of the negotiations by announcing the attack.
It's understandable that domestic news kept this from being reported much at the time, but it's straight up fake news for reporters to ignore this context.
I don't think they "kept" it from being reported at the time. It just wasn't very newsworthy with their Trump obsession in full effect. There are plenty of articles about it back in August and September. However, the morons that keep frothing at the mouth over Trump will ignore it.
Talks broke down over the "depth" of the security zone on the Syrian border. Turkey wanted 40 kilometers, we wanted 10 kilometers. Turkey basically said "**** you, we're going in since we can't come to an agreement" and pulled out of the talks as you stated.
Trump pulled our troops out for safety reasons prior to the Turks rolling in. Whether those idiots want to recognize it or not, Turkey was going in and we weren't going to stop them by saying "pretty please." They don't think we didn't notice 10,000 Turkish troops across the border making preparations to go into Syria? We knew they were going in to set up that buffer zone way before the Turks went across the border.
What did they expect us to do? Threaten to go to war with a NATO Alliance member over their security concerns? Put our troops in harm's way protecting one of our allies against another Treaty ally?
There were no good options here. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He keeps our troops with the SDF, he would get accused of putting them in danger and provoking an ally. He removes them, he gets accused of being a coward and getting played by Turkey.
He made a decision. Probably the best decision that could have been made given the circumstances.
I guess we will see what spineless Trump does when they cross his redline....
"ohhh noooesss! We will ban fish imports from Turkey! That is what my monumental intelligence tells me to do."So what would you have had him do?
Have the 173rd and 82nd jump in to reenforce the token presence we had in the area?
Effectively starting a shooting war with Turkey?
You Trump-can-do-no-right types would be wailing, along with the media.
Grand58742
10-10-19, 07:38
So what would you have had him do?
Have the 173rd and 82nd jump in to reenforce the token presence we had in the area?
Effectively starting a shooting war with Turkey?
Oh, I'm sure the warhawk Republicans (and Democrats as of late) would have preferred that. We needed another war in that region with no clear end to keep up the status quo.
Of course, as soon as Turkey would have stormed Incirlik AB and forced our troops out at gunpoint (or worse) they would have been screaming for his head over "provoking" an ally and protecting "terrorists."
As stated, there were no good options here. People can't see past their Trump hatred long enough to recognize this.
Oh, I'm sure the warhawk Republicans (and Democrats as of late) would have preferred that. We needed another war in that region with no clear end to keep up the status quo.
Of course, as soon as Turkey would have stormed Incirlik AB and forced our troops out at gunpoint (or worse) they would have been screaming for his head over "provoking" an ally and protecting "terrorists."
As stated, there were no good options here. People can't see past their Trump hatred long enough to recognize this.All true. Worse, it appears we would have had to reinforce presence in Syria, creating issues with them as well, not just Turkey.
People calling DJT spineless have conveniently forgotten about some of the other decisions he made.
There were no easy answers on this one. And many which would be far worse. We don't know what agreements were made with Turkey on this.
I know two things:
1) we will not see accurate reporting by the media both due to their nature and the nature of the area and event. So we literally don't know what's going on yep that's what yeah
2) no matter what approach Trump took there would be massive wailing and gnashing of teeth. Both publicly and from the same people moaning in this forum
Whiskey_Bravo
10-10-19, 08:10
I don't think they "kept" it from being reported at the time. It just wasn't very newsworthy with their Trump obsession in full effect. There are plenty of articles about it back in August and September. However, the morons that keep frothing at the mouth over Trump will ignore it.
Talks broke down over the "depth" of the security zone on the Syrian border. Turkey wanted 40 kilometers, we wanted 10 kilometers. Turkey basically said "**** you, we're going in since we can't come to an agreement" and pulled out of the talks as you stated.
Trump pulled our troops out for safety reasons prior to the Turks rolling in. Whether those idiots want to recognize it or not, Turkey was going in and we weren't going to stop them by saying "pretty please." They don't think we didn't notice 10,000 Turkish troops across the border making preparations to go into Syria? We knew they were going in to set up that buffer zone way before the Turks went across the border.
What did they expect us to do? Threaten to go to war with a NATO Alliance member over their security concerns? Put our troops in harm's way protecting one of our allies against another Treaty ally?
There were no good options here. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He keeps our troops with the SDF, he would get accused of putting them in danger and provoking an ally. He removes them, he gets accused of being a coward and getting played by Turkey.
He made a decision. Probably the best decision that could have been made given the circumstances.
What do you think you are doing laying out facts. You are supposed to orange man bad bro.
We should have left our 50 or so guys there so that when something happened to them the media could have gone into yet another frenzy of how Trump abandoned our troops. Then we could have gone to war with Turkey. Media happy, Dems and never Trumpers happy as well as the warhawks.
Grand58742
10-10-19, 08:12
All true. Worse, it appears we would have had to reinforce presence in Syria, creating issues with them as well, not just Turkey.
I think the nation of Syria is pretty much a long dead idea. I said on another forum we can blame Trump for not helping push the idea of setting up an independent and recognized Kurdish state. And blame Obama. And Bush 43. And Bush 41.
The Kurdish problem transcends Trump's Presidency by decades. He's just the latest to inherit a crappy situation.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-10-19, 08:26
I think the nation of Syria is pretty much a long dead idea. I said on another forum we can blame Trump for not helping push the idea of setting up an independent and recognized Kurdish state. And blame Obama. And Bush 43. And Bush 41.
The Kurdish problem transcends Trump's Presidency by decades. He's just the latest to inherit a crappy situation.
With Iraq descending into chaos lately maybe the Kurds we actually care about in Northern Iraq will get a chance.
Digital_Damage
10-10-19, 09:27
"They didn't help us in the second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy for example, They're there to help us with their land, and that's a different thing." Trump said.
Because Normandy is in New Jersey? What a ****ing idiot.
"They didn't help us in the second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy for example, They're there to help us with their land, and that's a different thing." Trump said.
Because Normandy is in New Jersey? What a ****ing idiot.
It does help to see the entire thing and just not rhe parts that the libtards want you to see....... oh, and understand it.
The Kurds are fighting for their land, just so you understand. They’re fighting for their land and as someone wrote in a very, very powerful article today: They didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy, as an example… but they’re there to help us with their land. And that’s a different thing. And in addition that, we’ve spent tremendous amounts of money on helping the Kurds, in terms of ammunition, in terms of weapons, in terms of money, in terms of pay. With all of that being said, we like the Kurds.
Digital_Damage
10-10-19, 09:43
It does help to see the entire thing and just not rhe parts that the libtards want you to see....... oh, and understand it.
The Kurds are fighting for their land, just so you understand. They’re fighting for their land and as someone wrote in a very, very powerful article today: They didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy, as an example… but they’re there to help us with their land. And that’s a different thing. And in addition that, we’ve spent tremendous amounts of money on helping the Kurds, in terms of ammunition, in terms of weapons, in terms of money, in terms of pay. With all of that being said, we like the Kurds.
Quote is from Fox... the bastion of libs right? Even the gas lighters are backing away from this mess.
Outlander Systems
10-10-19, 09:56
Did they, though?
"They didn't help us in the second World War, they didn't help us with Normandy for example, They're there to help us with their land, and that's a different thing." Trump said.
Because Normandy is in New Jersey? What a ****ing idiot.
P2Vaircrewman
10-10-19, 09:57
Kurds seem like the Polish of the ME. Kind of stuck between much larger empires and powers.
My biggest question is, "Why now?".
My biggest question is, "Then when"
Is this the back story to the bigger picture? Does it come down to the usual chit, oil and $?
Why the Kurds May Be Blamed for the U.S. Pullout from Syria
Many Americans are upset that the U.S. is pulling troops from Syria. They are more upset at the fact they believe the move would cripple U.S. – Kurdish relations. While they may be correct, to a degree, the U.S./Kurdish relationship was already tattered two years ago.
Few realize that the Kurds have, for years, maintained a unique relationship with Russia. In fact, Mustafa Barzani, the father of the former KRG (Kurdistan Regional Government) president, Masoud Barzani, spent 12 years in exile in the Soviet Union. While the relationship has mostly been passive in nature, two years ago an incredible deal unfolded between Russia and the Kurds.
Two years ago, a purchase order unfolded between the Kurds and a Russian oil bohemoth: Rosneft. That purchase order consisted of an oil pipeline running from Iraq through Turkey. But prior to the agreement, Russian Oil Exploration agreements took place between the Kurds and Gazprom.
Cont:
https://havokjournal.com/politics/international/why-the-kurds-may-be-behind-the-u-s-pullout-from-syria/?
It does help to see the entire thing and just not rhe parts that the libtards want you to see....... oh, and understand it.
The Kurds are fighting for their land, just so you understand. They’re fighting for their land and as someone wrote in a very, very powerful article today: They didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy, as an example… but they’re there to help us with their land. And that’s a different thing. And in addition that, we’ve spent tremendous amounts of money on helping the Kurds, in terms of ammunition, in terms of weapons, in terms of money, in terms of pay. With all of that being said, we like the Kurds.
No one ever claimed Trump was a skilled public speaker, as as you say, one does have to see the context etc in what he says. I thought this put at least some it in context:
"The Kurds are a middle East ethnic group, scattered through Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and more. The Kurds, though they are a minority, have chosen not to assimilate nor integrate into the nations where they live. They have mostly not even chosen to cooperate with these nations. Instead they have tried to carve out independent enclaves in other people’s nations.
As you can readily imagine, this aggressive, uncooperative stance has not earned Kurds many friends.
When Bush invaded Iraq, the Kurds quickly turned on their fellow countrymen and fought beside the American invaders. They were rewarded by Bush with the oil-rich region of Northern Iraq. Only American arms, American money, and American lives protected them and guaranteed this theft of Iraqi land.
When Obama invaded Syria (which permitted ISIS to rise) the Syrian Kurds did the same as their brothers did in Iraq. Obama gave the oil-rich region in North Syria to the Kurds, then guaranteed that theft of Syrian land by American arms, American money, and American lives. Without question, the Kurds fought against ISIS while ISIS was trying to establish a caliphate on the same land that the Kurds wanted.
In Turkey, once again the Kurds made war on their countrymen, but the Turks beat them down. Today, Turkey is moving to terminate the reign of Kurdish terrorism which the Kurds have visited upon Turkey. Even the USA has defined the Kurds fighting Turkey (PKK) as a terrorist organization.
Given that background: The Kurds were never our “Allies”! They were fighting for their own interests against our common enemies.
The Kurds have brought their own situation upon themselves. Generals, war mongers, and weapon sellers want America embroiled in dozens of little wars around the world. They want US money, American arms, and American lives to occupy Syria, Iraq, Libya, and much of the rest of the Middle East, where we have already flushed more than 5 TRILLION DOLLARS down the Middle East toilet. We don’t need Kurds or American soldiers to fight ISIS. We need missiles and drones and the resolve to wipe out the enemy.
Trump is getting us out of these foolish, wasteful wars. And now we hear that we should stay there and waste more American lives and money. For what?!? The Kurds!?!?"
- Elbert Lee Guillory
Whiskey_Bravo
10-10-19, 10:12
It does help to see the entire thing and just not rhe parts that the libtards want you to see....... oh, and understand it.
The Kurds are fighting for their land, just so you understand. They’re fighting for their land and as someone wrote in a very, very powerful article today: They didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy, as an example… but they’re there to help us with their land. And that’s a different thing. And in addition that, we’ve spent tremendous amounts of money on helping the Kurds, in terms of ammunition, in terms of weapons, in terms of money, in terms of pay. With all of that being said, we like the Kurds.
But the whole thing isn't nearly as /outrage worthy as just the sound bite.
I didn't want President Trump in office and I voted for him, at the time he was the lesser of two evils. I'm not even so sure that Hilary would have been worse at this point.
Had she been elected, we would still likely have a majority in both chambers of the Congress, and our 2nd Amendment Rights would, therefore be safer than they are now.
Slight thread drift here, but you are kidding, right?
A president Hilary would have nominated at least two justices to the Supreme Court, likely three as RBG would have taken the opportunity to retire.
This plus countless Federal judges. Even if the Senate had remained Republican, most republicans are spineless and the pressure to confirm would have been more than they could stand.
The 2A would be in pieces.
Things aren’t great with Trump, but they would be far worse with the other choices (and I mean this both in 2016 and 2020).
I don't think they "kept" it from being reported at the time. It just wasn't very newsworthy with their Trump obsession in full effect.
Not being major news at the time is understandable. But now that the pullout is big news that context is never mentioned. It's dishonest (fake news by omission) to report this as something Trump just did impulsively. How convenient that it also takes your side off the hook for putting forward a workable solution.
Turkey has a legitimate security concern on that border. They may have been unreasonable in what they wanted, and they may take military action too far. These points, and how far Trump was willing to negotiate with or bully Turkey, are fair to debate and fair to disagree about.
Reading between the lines of that Trump quote, I'd say the Kurds were less than helpful with the buffer zone solution.
MountainRaven
10-10-19, 11:32
The PKK is communist for the same reason Vietnam and Cuba are communist: We supported their enemies.
Kurds have gone to Russia and have relationships with Russians and Russian organizations because... we supported their enemies.
Because having medium-range ballistic missiles in places where we can threaten the Russians is more important than freedom and liberty. I'm sure the people who made those decisions back in the 1950s, 60s, 70s figured that once we'd nuked the Russians back into the stone-age we could bring American-style democracy and freedom and liberty to the oppressed peoples living under the dictators we supported... but that never happened.
Chiang Kai-shek, Park Chung-hee, Ngô Đình Diệm, Saddam Hussein, Reza Pahlavi, the Saudis, Fulgencio Batista, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan... they may not be our monkeys, but we own the circus.
Belmont31R
10-10-19, 12:27
Do people not realize there's several different groups of Kurds? Its not some monolithic entity. Some of them are communists who've engaged in terrorism, and the Turks have been fighting them for a long time already. Most of them have little to nothing to do with US foreign interests or at the most we had a common goal at the same time at some point in the past.
Let middle easterners figure out middle eastern problems. I have no idea how 'fixing the Middle East' became such a big thing in American politics. We will never fix that place, and our friend today could easily become our enemy tomorrow. For every success story there are examples of our policy and actions causing other issues for us down the road.
This is not like the Montagnards in Vietnam. This not like the Iraq withdrawal in 2011. War hawks will use every excuse in the book to keep us in perpetual war.
If people care so much some of the Kurds accept foreign volunteers.
Outlander Systems
10-10-19, 12:32
Bingo.
If people care so much some of the Kurds accept foreign volunteers.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-10-19, 12:38
If people care so much some of the Kurds accept foreign volunteers.
And strangely enough you typically go through Turkey to get into Kurd territory in Northern Iraq. If you want to fight the Turks and help the communist version of the Kurds in Syria fly to Turkey, cross the border and let The Peshmerga know. They will help you get into Syria and you can take your chances fighting the Turks with those guys.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-10-19, 12:39
If people care so much some of the Kurds accept foreign volunteers.
And strangely enough you typically go through Turkey to get into Kurd territory in Northern Iraq. If you want to fight the Turks and help the communist version of the Kurds in Syria fly to Turkey, cross the border and let The Peshmerga know. They will help you get into Syria and you can take your chances fighting the Turks with those guys.
"The Kurds are a middle East ethnic group, scattered through Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and more. The Kurds, though they are a minority, have chosen not to assimilate nor integrate into the nations where they live."
This article is significantly lacking historical context from the end of WWI. All the countries in the region were just drawn on a map. This split up many former tribe/states that existed under the Ottoman empire. The Kurds never chose to form a country with other tribes.
Slight thread drift here, but you are kidding, right?
A president Hilary.
I threw up a little in my mouth when I read that.
I just like how everyone thought Trump would start WWIII (seriously Eminem even did a rap video on it)
And yet while he is acknowledging the futility of pointless Forever Wars, AOC of all people is now a warhawk wanting more troops and bombings while Trump is wanting to pull out.
This is the first I’ve head of a woman being upset about Trump pulling out
AOC has a physical magnetism but she is a meme and proves his point that people are being contrary for no reason out of spite.
I’m not an army guy but a little peacetime as well as these other “embattled” countries doing for themselves would be a nice change of pace.
morbidbattlecry
10-10-19, 14:10
I love this thread, some of you guys are spinning this so hard it's dizzying. So not only is Trump not wrong in this but the democrats are actually hawks. If trump said the sky was purple and the grass red some people on here would come on to argue that it's not only true but the dems made it that way.
I love this thread, some of you guys are spinning this so hard it's dizzying. So not only is Trump not wrong in this but the democrats are actually hawks. If trump said the sky was purple and the grass red some people on here would come on to argue that it's not only true but the dems made it that way.
I'm going to repeat this.
"How convenient that it (blame Trump) also takes your side off the hook for putting forward a workable solution."
Since Israel is a mutual ally in the area why aren’t they helping out on this?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Since Israel is a mutual ally in the area why aren’t they helping out on this?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good question. They got Navy SEALs and Paratroopers. Why not?
dwhitehorne
10-10-19, 15:47
I have said in another thread that I have a friend who spent 30 years in the intelligence community, all of which in the middle east, who said the only people he trusts less than the Israelis are the Turkish.
You got to take this with a grain of salt. Has the “Intelligence Community” got anything right in the Middle East since WWII. The intell community is being overrun by liberals just like the DOS has been for decades. David.
I'd think the 41 years since 1978 is enough time.
Fck the turks. People say the Israelis are our only ally in the region, they are self serving to say the least. The kurds should be who we support int his region not Israel. That said, enough is enough. Its time to come home, let god sort them out.
Pretty much. Who here remembers that Turkey invaded and occupied Cyprus in 1974?
Some days I think we should carpet bomb them all and start over.
I mean....Armageddon is literally a mountain in SWA. So when shit tops off we already know who’s responsible.
It’s literally in Revelations
This article offers an interesting perspective: https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/10/turkey-and-the-kurds-its-more-complicated-than-you-think/
"He wants U.S. forces out of a conflict in which America’s interests have never been clear, and for which Congress has never approved military intervention."
"Our intervention in Syria has never been authorized by Congress. Those of us who opposed intervention maintained that congressional authorization was necessary because there was no imminent threat to our nation. Contrary to the editorial’s suggestion, having U.S. forces “deter further genocidal bloodshed in northern Syria” is not a mission for which Americans support committing our men and women in uniform. Such bloodlettings are the Muslim Middle East’s default condition, so the missions would never end. A congressional debate should have been mandatory before we jumped into a multi-layered war, featuring anti-American actors and shifting loyalties on both sides. In fact, so complex is the situation that President Obama’s initial goal was to oust Syria’s Assad regime; only later came the pivot to fighting terrorists, which helped Assad. That is Syria: Opposing one set of America’s enemies only empowers another. More clear than what intervention would accomplish was the likelihood of becoming enmeshed, inadvertently or otherwise, in vicious conflicts of which we wanted no part — such as the notorious and longstanding conflict between Turks and Kurds."
"The easily foreseeable conflict between Turkey and the Kurds is at hand. We are supposed to see the problem as Trump’s abandoning of U.S. commitments. But why did we make commitments to the Kurds that undermined preexisting commitments to Turkey? The debate is strictly framed as “How can we leave the Kurds to the tender mercies of the Turks?” No one is supposed to ask “What did we expect would happen when we backed a militant organization that is tightly linked to U.S.-designated terrorists and that is the bitter enemy of a NATO ally we knew would not abide its presence on the ally’s border?” No one is supposed to ask “What is the end game here? Are we endorsing the partition of Syria? Did we see a Kurdish autonomous zone as the next Kosovo?"
MountainRaven
10-10-19, 21:29
Haven’t posted in a while. My apologies. I’ve been busy lately setting up my own company, NorArm Tactical, while working full time on my day job. Currently planing a trip to the Greater Middle-East to create our first product, a combat uniform. But this post isn’t about me, but the situation in Syria. I’ve decided not to be salty about this. Trump is the president of the United States, elected by the american people. If he wants to pull out the US troops from Syria and give Turkey the green light to invade, then that’s his choice. And if you’re an american, you may not care about Syria. Maybe football or celebrities concern you more. But here’s how Trumps decision is going to affect you. First, the US have lost their best and only ally in Syria. Which means that you’re out of the game. You have no more influence in Syria and whatever you’ve been doing there for the last four-five years have been a waste. You will also loose influence in the Middle-East and you will have a hard f*cking time finding new allies elsewhere now that the whole world have seen how you treat your friends. The kurds will now have to turn to Assad and Putin for possible cooperation and Trumps decision have been an early Christmas present to Russia, China and Iran, who will enjoy increased influence and power. Mark my words. This is the begining of the end of US hegemony in the Middle-East. Second, there are tens of thousands of Islamic State terrorists in kurdish prisons in Syria. Once the turks have captured these prisons, you can rest asure many of these will «escape» and find their way to Europe through Turkey. Hell, Erdogan might not even hide the fact he will give them a free pass, as he have previously blackmailed Europe for money by threatening to open up his borders and release millions of refugees our way. We can expect decades of more terrorist and «lone wolf» attacks as a results and even though this will mostly affect us europeans, american targets in Europe and Middle-East will also be hit as a result. Oh, and then you have the fact that there will be a genocide and democraphic changes as never before seen in Syria, but who cares about that, right?
Just some food for thought from someone who went, on his own dime, to fight with the Kurds in the region.
I just like how everyone thought Trump would start WWIII (seriously Eminem even did a rap video on it)
I thought everyone thought Hillary was going to start WWIII.
I was thinking.....
The whole concept of WW3 is dated, Cold War, and Boomer AF.
Nobody makes money in WW3 unless you like bottlecaps.
No, this is the future of killing empires.
Setting up tarbabies to punch then watch people go broke, influx them with "migrants", and bleed them dry.
Russia is still poor in the cosmic sense and still fight in SWA, Chechnya, and Crimea on credit or selling out to the Red Chinese who flex on Japan while trying to quietly conquer Africa and South America. And the US is peace corps with guns.
I dare say nukes would actually be more humane.
I sometimes think the Cold War was an excuse to use other nations to keep their own citizenry in line. Being each others boogeyman.
You go to a shithole to spend billioms of dollars to make it shittier. Big wow.
The Saudis knew what they were doing when they 9/11'd us.
These people were born and raised in a briar patch and nobody wants to see that.
Oh boy, more troops and more bombs over people who drink where they piss.
I sometimes believe Korea was a trial run and Vietnam was the inauguration of these pointless, go nnowhere buck-buck games.
Severely tightened up borders, mass deportation on an unprecedented scale, moratorium on immigration for 15 years, refusal to commit forces, and telling our 'allies' to piss off once in a while will stop this.
Prove me wrong. Also if the russian bride you wanna marry cant wait 15 years then she a ho. I aint saying she's a gold digger but she aint with a broke--
I feel like this started up for the Kurds at least 70 years ago. When the winners of of wars, drew "arbritary" lines in the dirt of that region, threw caution to the wind and had no idea of cultural or social issues/dynamics of the past 2000 years in that region.
I have no doubts, that the Kurds up to this point, have gotten more out of this deal than we have. The Turks are going to wipe them off the face of the earth. At least give it a good try. Will NATO Nations step up and do their part? Doubtful, but Trump said he was going to pull troops out of places,seems like a promise kept.
I dont feel like you can be for pulling troops out of places like this, without understanding terrible people, are going to do terrible things in OUR absence. In the same sense, if you believe we need to be in places like this, than lets go to war, get congressional approval and unleash our military.
The War on Terror, it mirrors the War on Drugs...I have lost freedoms under the guise of being safe. Seems the Kurds are in the same boat.
I feel like this started up for the Kurds at least 70 years ago. When the winners of of wars, drew "arbritary" lines in the dirt of that region, threw caution to the wind and had no idea of cultural or social issues/dynamics of the past 2000 years in that region.
I have no doubts, that the Kurds up to this point, have gotten more out of this deal than we have. The Turks are going to wipe them off the face of the earth. At least give it a good try. Will NATO Nations step up and do their part? Doubtful, but Trump said he was going to pull troops out of places,seems like a promise kept.
I dont feel like you can be for pulling troops out of places like this, without understanding terrible people, are going to do terrible things in OUR absence. In the same sense, if you believe we need to be in places like this, than lets go to war, get congressional approval and unleash our military.
The War on Terror, it mirrors the War on Drugs...I have lost freedoms under the guise of being safe. Seems the Kurds are in the same boat.
Okay but why do WE always have to save the day and why are WE to blame for other people's bad actions?
We talk of boogaloo. But these people are living in perpetual shindig. Is it really too much of a task for them to gang up on thesoldiers/police/militia terrorizing them at night when they are alone to murder them and take their guns and start evening up some scores?
When do we get to take a "Don't feed the bears" approach?
Okay but why do WE always have to save the day and why are WE to blame for other people's bad actions?
We talk of boogaloo. But these people are living in perpetual shindig. Is it really too much of a task for them to gang up on thesoldiers/police/militia terrorizing them at night when they are alone to murder them and take their guns and start evening up some scores?
When do we get to take a "Don't feed the bears" approach?
I dont disagree with you and people got a lot of answers/theories, on the why we got to do it and the why we are lepers when we dont. That geopolitics game, is beyond my Fu. I understand the need to put that whooping on dudes who need it.
The world looked to US after WWII to police this thing and were greatful, to an extent, that we did what we did. Lets not get it twisted and maybe we jump back in our lanes a bit here, but we gleefully took on that role. IMO, people got greedy, people got high on the power and think world politics is a game and blowing stuff up, is part of that game. Maybe, maybe noy. Again, my geopolitical Fu, is not strong.
I was angry when 9/11 went down...we canoed that prick a few years back and those bullets cost somewhere north of 10 trillion dollars...that is cash money homie. We went into Afghanistan with some SF dudes and spooks from the CIA and bombed the Taliban for 6 months...than the Pentagon got involved...18 years later.
If people want to fuss about pulling out? Man, been humping that fat girl long enough. Finish up, wash off and head home for some rest.
Well, not that I'm an expert on the situation at all, but you gotta love the fact that, even here of all places, people are toeing the butthurt line about "oh noes, Trump is abandoning some erstwhile allies of ours somewhere, oh boo hoo, what will the rest of the world think of the way we treat our allies?"
Like... bitch please. NOW it matters "because orange man bad"? WW1 and 2 aside, when have we NOT screwed over our so-called allies, for the last several decades at least? Bay of Pigs anyone? "The world" is already QUITE aware of this fact. This administration's move, IF it turns out to be boneheaded, will simply be the latest in a long line of missteps, having literally nothing to do with whether the guy in office looks like a Cheeto cosplayer or not.
Some people people here falling hard for current-lens personal-bias media interpretation, like...I know a lot of people here held their nose to vote for the guy, but damn...
IMHO, we should support the Kurds, BUT the time to support them more seriously, to prevent future shit like current events from happening, seems to have been some time ago, and we clearly dropped the ball again there. Somehow I suspect the "intel community" is to blame for that again, but then what do I know.
Either way, it's apparently over now for us and them- they either get crushed by Turkey, or run to BigBear/BadDragon and those players get their turn to prop them up.
Because now, for some ungodly reason, Turkey is a NATO ally...and next door to EU...and capable/willing of nasty underhanded shit in that arena, not to mention someone who can't be entirely dismissed as a regional ME player..
So, the thing I find further ironic is, nobody thinking of "so what happens if we break up with Turkey?"
Which is worse for everyone- Turkey backed fully by BigBear/etc, and with NO incentive to play nice with us anymore, or a small Kurdish state potentially backed by someone with less friendly interests to us? How about a shooting war with Turkey under same conditions? What would be the implications of going to war with a NATO ally, if we already have any worries about what our smaller allies think of us? Gee, doesn't this sound a whole lot like our relationships with other powers in the region?
As some others here put it, this seems to be a clear "no good choice/outcome" situation. There's going to be blood either way; how much would you like to spend?
The shit-sandwich takeaway simply seems to be that today the Kurds are getting the raw end of the "sacrificial lamb" play. Guess we'll see where the chips fall tomorrow...it's not like anyone here influences international policy anyway.
That's just my $.02.
Belmont31R
10-11-19, 01:01
Some of you are missing the point. Supporting the Kurds is not stopping entirely. We will still be giving them supplies and $$.
Russia has vowed to protect the territorial integrity of Syria because they support Assad.
Turkey, while a NATO member, got kicked out of the F-35 program because they were buying Russian S400 missiles, and Erdogan has warmed relations with Russia.
If Turkey does start 'slaughtering' Kurds the sanctions we can put on them will tank their economy. They're already doing so poorly their national interest rates were over 20%.
The Iranians also have an interest in this because of their support for Shia muslims and their own Kurdish populations.
This puts Russia, Syria, Turkey, and Iran in a position where they had a unifying enemy (us) now without one and in opposition to each other. This is simply not a 'stupid' move by Trump because he felt like ****ing over the Kurds. This flipped the entire situation to where people who oppose us now have to 'figure it out' which is going to have consequences for someone. If Turkey decides a part of Syria is now their's the Russians will have to deal with Turkey, and Turkey will have economy tanking sanctions placed on them. Trump also told Erdogan ISIS is now their problem if they go through with the buffer zone that has been in negotiations for weeks. If the Kurds take off, and let the 1000's of ISIS prisoners go, Turkey will have them to deal with.
People saying Trump 'gave Turkey the green light to wipe out the Kurds' are simply telling you FALSE information. For one Trump said no such thing, and secondly the Kurds have been fighting the Turks for decades. Theres already a Kurdish population in Turkey, and they have not been wiped out. A lot of the Kurds in northern Syria are not even native to that area. They can retreat to northern Iraq or other regions where they have established strongholds.
There is MUCH more to be gained by withdrawing, and letting the numerous other players who have a stake in the outcome deal with each other.
vicious_cb
10-11-19, 01:35
Same s*it, different century. Except instead the silk road and trade routes, its oil pipe lines. Instead of cataphracts doing the killing, its tanks and arty. People really need to study more history, its inevitable things like that will happen in this part of the world. How much more money and blood need to be wasted in the ME before people realize this.
Haven’t posted in a while. My apologies. I’ve been busy lately setting up my own company, NorArm Tactical, while working full time on my day job. Currently planing a trip to the Greater Middle-East to create our first product, a combat uniform. But this post isn’t about me, but the situation in Syria. I’ve decided not to be salty about this. Trump is the president of the United States, elected by the american people. If he wants to pull out the US troops from Syria and give Turkey the green light to invade, then that’s his choice. And if you’re an american, you may not care about Syria. Maybe football or celebrities concern you more. But here’s how Trumps decision is going to affect you. First, the US have lost their best and only ally in Syria. Which means that you’re out of the game. You have no more influence in Syria and whatever you’ve been doing there for the last four-five years have been a waste. You will also loose influence in the Middle-East and you will have a hard f*cking time finding new allies elsewhere now that the whole world have seen how you treat your friends. The kurds will now have to turn to Assad and Putin for possible cooperation and Trumps decision have been an early Christmas present to Russia, China and Iran, who will enjoy increased influence and power. Mark my words. This is the begining of the end of US hegemony in the Middle-East. Second, there are tens of thousands of Islamic State terrorists in kurdish prisons in Syria. Once the turks have captured these prisons, you can rest asure many of these will «escape» and find their way to Europe through Turkey. Hell, Erdogan might not even hide the fact he will give them a free pass, as he have previously blackmailed Europe for money by threatening to open up his borders and release millions of refugees our way. We can expect decades of more terrorist and «lone wolf» attacks as a results and even though this will mostly affect us europeans, american targets in Europe and Middle-East will also be hit as a result. Oh, and then you have the fact that there will be a genocide and democraphic changes as never before seen in Syria, but who cares about that, right?
Awesome, let the other powers waste resources and manpower in the black hole that is the ME.
Since Israel is a mutual ally in the area why aren’t they helping out on this?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think that it would probably inflame things quite a bit, wouldn't it?
I think that it would probably inflame things quite a bit, wouldn't it?
Yep, the same reason we did our best to keep the Israeli out of the fray during Desert Storm when they were attacked by Skud missiles.
MountainRaven
10-11-19, 09:13
I feel like this started up for the Kurds at least 70 years ago. When the winners of of wars, drew "arbritary" lines in the dirt of that region, threw caution to the wind and had no idea of cultural or social issues/dynamics of the past 2000 years in that region.
Actually, the British and French were very aware of what they were doing when they drew those lines. There's a good reason why most countries of the Middle-East has no super-majority ethnic or tribal group, and that's because the Franco-Brits wanted to maximize chaos in the Middle-East. They didn't want another Ottoman-Turkish Empire to arise to potentially threaten Christendom - or their ability to exploit the Middle-East.
Outlander Systems
10-11-19, 09:23
Amount of ****s given if PeshmergaPapa ****ing walked to the Middle East from Chile: Zero
After 18 years in Afghanistan this is what we have to show for it:
https://ichef-bbci-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/695/cpsprodpb/136E5/production/_106598597_afghan_opium_chart-nc.png
Just some food for thought from someone who went, on his own dime, to fight with the Kurds in the region.
I thought everyone thought Hillary was going to start WWIII.
Yep, the same reason we did our best to keep the Israeli out of the fray during Desert Storm when they were attacked by Skud missiles.
Probably but so what? We’re already the great satan to the cave dwellers so why are we always the ones to waste blood and treasure protecting Israel’s interests?
And someone correct me if I’m wrong but don’t a majority of Israeli oil imports come from Iraqi Kurdistan?
ETA I mean to quote 26infs post. Not Sams
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Actually, the British and French were very aware of what they were doing when they drew those lines. There's a good reason why most countries of the Middle-East has no super-majority ethnic or tribal group, and that's because the Franco-Brits wanted to maximize chaos in the Middle-East. They didn't want another Ottoman-Turkish Empire to arise to potentially threaten Christendom - or their ability to exploit the Middle-East.
Yeah, I have read conflicting versions on the matter. I am in no way disagreeing with you, but the Brits/French were looking at it through Colonial lenses and how the lines benefited them the most.
The Kurds have never really helped their cause, IMO. They absolutely refused to assimilate, EVER and that sounds a lot like some bearded characters in Afghanistan.
Im with others: you look at history and this crap is par for the course in the ME, for just about as long as man has been there.
Probably but so what? We’re already the great satan to the cave dwellers so why are we always the ones to waste blood and treasure protecting Israel’s interests?
Because we would eventually have to get into it to defend Israel in order to keep it from going nuclear.
As to why we carry the load, I think there are a few, like myself, who feel we are somewhat (not totally) responsible for the whole damned mess and are not willing to see 30% of the Jewish population of the world annihilated.
By, and large though, it is because the 12 million Jewish folks in America do a heck of a job, even better than the NRA, of twisting politician's arms. When you combine those folks with the number of ill-informed Christians who don't really understand what Jesus Christ's life and death was all about, you have a pretty strong lobby.
There is this, though: "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people." I do think Israel needs to act more like the adult in the area.
JMO
Belmont31R
10-11-19, 19:20
Because we would eventually have to get into it to defend Israel in order to keep it from going nuclear.
As to why we carry the load, I think there are a few, like myself, who feel we are somewhat (not totally) responsible for the whole damned mess and are not willing to see 30% of the Jewish population of the world annihilated.
By, and large though, it is because the 12 million Jewish folks in America do a heck of a job, even better than the NRA, of twisting politician's arms. When you combine those folks with the number of ill-informed Christians who don't really understand what Jesus Christ's life and death was all about, you have a pretty strong lobby.
There is this, though: "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people." I do think Israel needs to act more like the adult in the area.
JMO
Israel has their own goals and interests which is fine. They aren't a little America who has to do our bidding. I also think there's probably nothing more that would unite Muslims around a cause than Israel playing a big role in ME issues. People learned not to **** with them but they need to keep a tight leash on what they do outside of their borders. Im not some Israeli lover, and its good we have them in the area, but I'm not immune to the role the pro-Israeli lobby has on our policy.
Does bring up a good point though. People are flipping out about the Kurds yet shit on Israel and support the BDS movement.
This is one of those cases where the interests and sides at play all have legitimate reasons for doing what they do, and one of the reasons I voted Trump was to lessen our role in the area. They all have legit beefs and I have no idea why the ME is such a huge policy issue for America. Besides lessening our role our energy independence that Trump supports unlike Obama means the ME matters even less to Americans. Theres always some group in the ME eating a shit sandwich at any given moment. I'd rather wipe our hands clean, and let them sort it out while we turn the trillions we've spent over there back into our own country and a debt that's growing billions by the day.
So if the goal is bringing troops home, like Trump has stated, why then did he move 1,800 troops to Saudi Arabia today after pulling troops from Norther Syria? Seems a bit hypocritical.
Also, Turkey fired on positions near US special forces today (within several hundred meters). Are we still feeling good about the decision making going on here?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/world/middleeast/trump-saudi-arabia-iran-troops.html
https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727
MountainRaven
10-11-19, 21:10
Amount of ****s given if PeshmergaPapa ****ing walked to the Middle East from Chile: Zero
After 18 years in Afghanistan this is what we have to show for it:
https://ichef-bbci-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/695/cpsprodpb/136E5/production/_106598597_afghan_opium_chart-nc.png
I had no idea that Afghan opium was grown in Syria.
https://tenor.com/ZeNy.gif
Belmont31R
10-11-19, 21:42
I had no idea that Afghan opium was grown in Syria.
https://tenor.com/ZeNy.gif
Pic aint working but Syria was the main route for foreign fighters into Iraq when I was there in 2004 and 2005-2006. There were units stationed up on the border trying to interdict them but only so much you can do. I took pics of one of one of the 'Juba' sniper vehicles we captured and people are dumb if they think just putting our troops somewhere fixes anything or the common 'goat herder' bullshit I see posted everywhere.
The opium issue is another example of our dumbass foreign policy. During the height of the Afghan war we were sending DEA agents there to try to disrupt poppy cultivation. Another example of do gooders paving the path to hell.
Its absolutely disgusting how mismanaged Iraq, Afghanistan, and the ME in general have been over the last few decades. The O4 and above crew treated the last 2 decades as a chess board like it was WW2 again while the LT's and NCO corps did what soldiers do and follow the mission but never got listened to. Listen to Chosen Few or Outlaw Platoon.
Digital_Damage
10-13-19, 07:51
So if the goal is bringing troops home, like Trump has stated, why then did he move 1,800 troops to Saudi Arabia today after pulling troops from Norther Syria? Seems a bit hypocritical.
Also, Turkey fired on positions near US special forces today (within several hundred meters). Are we still feeling good about the decision making going on here?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/11/world/middleeast/trump-saudi-arabia-iran-troops.html
https://www.newsweek.com/us-troops-syria-turkey-1464727
The news coming out today is stating that Turkey Bracketed the location (Fired on either side of the location).
It was to make a point and see how the US responded... we left then returned.
The Saudi thing is going to be a shit show, par for the course with Trump.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-13-19, 09:04
When one of these ISIS people who escaped from the camps in Syria lights something off here in the United States it’s the end of trumps 2020 election chances. And you know the deep state will set that up.
Considering how brutal ISIS was/is and what they did to prisoners I'd have zero problems if the whole lot of those prisoners was summarily executed. Let the Kurds, Syrians, or even the Turks do it since we obviously can't sully our hands in such chicanery; let them do it with a wink and a nod, I really don't care.
Grand58742
10-13-19, 11:36
Apparently the SDF is working on a deal to bring in Syrian government forces to help stop Turkey from advancing.
https://twitter.com/FaceTheNation/status/1183371189256884231
And with Syrian government forces likely comes Russian help.
Screw Turkey, this is their mess, let them have it.
So if the goal is bringing troops home, like Trump has stated, why then did he move 1,800 troops to Saudi Arabia today after pulling troops from Norther Syria? Seems a bit hypocritical.
Are you being obtuse? Or do you get all you info on his positions from the MSM rather than Trump? He has been consistently against endless, no clear objective, and no clear US interest wars.
Saudi Arabia is a long term alliance and war between them and Iran would have massive global energy consequences.
You can debate his policy on either or both, but you can't honestly argue there is no difference to US interests between them.
Apparently the SDF is working on a deal to bring in Syrian government forces to help stop Turkey from advancing.
https://twitter.com/FaceTheNation/status/1183371189256884231
And with Syrian government forces likely comes Russian help.
Screw Turkey, this is their mess, let them have it.
Turkey versus Syria/Iran sounds like a great show for US to stand aside and watch. With Iraq stuck in the middle.
Outlander Systems
10-13-19, 13:52
>Being this obtuse
Roger that.
I had no idea that Afghan opium was grown in Syria.
https://tenor.com/ZeNy.gif
I’m just sick of the US being Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Legion.
Iran could wipe them off the map for all I care. F em.
That may not be “correct” or thinking “long term” or “strategic”
But I said it, I mean it, and it felt good to verbalize it.
Digital_Damage
10-13-19, 14:18
Trump just ordered a complete withdrawal.
Pentagon state it is in response to Turkeys cutting off all US supply lines and not sticking to the agreed upon "buffer zone", as well as direct threats against US held areas.
Trump got bitch slapped again...
Grand58742
10-13-19, 14:33
Trump just ordered a complete withdrawal.
Pentagon state it is in response to Turkeys cutting off all US supply lines and not sticking to the agreed upon "buffer zone", as well as direct threats against US held areas.
Trump got bitch slapped again...
You're right.
We should declare war on Turkey.
Trump just ordered a complete withdrawal.
Pentagon state it is in response to Turkeys cutting off all US supply lines and not sticking to the agreed upon "buffer zone", as well as direct threats against US held areas.
Trump got bitch slapped again...
So.....Trump not sending our boys to die in an unfixable shithole and Europe having to fend for itself is him getting “bitch slapped”
Got it
ETA motherFVCK this Tar Baby bullshit.
“Oh he’s gonna start WW3 y’all!”
“LOOK He’s bringing troops home. What a BITCH”
Look. If no one ever listens to another thing I say. Listen to this.
F these people, their countries, their way of life, their kids, their dead folks, AND they mamas.
They got guns. They got 18 year olds. Go getch ya some. Let someone ELSE know what it is like.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-13-19, 14:53
You're right.
We should declare war on Turkey.
When they balked at opening the northern front in Iraq, we should have sat them down and gotten them onto the program.
I hear that Turkey arty is bracketing our guys. Maybe box their arty with some JDAMS.
Grand58742
10-13-19, 15:01
When they balked at opening the northern front in Iraq, we should have sat them down and gotten them onto the program.
I hear that Turkey arty is bracketing our guys. Maybe box their arty with some JDAMS.
I think those boys in the 173rd did an outstanding job on that second front.
We should have done in 2003 what we probably should have done in 1991. Create a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq. Eff Turkey, eff Iran and eff Syria. Give them the country they rightfully deserve.
MountainRaven
10-13-19, 15:06
So.....Chamberlain not sending our boys to die in an unfixable shithole and Czechoslovakia having to fend for itself is him getting “bitch slapped”
Got it
Fly circa 1938.
Fly circa 1938.
Cute.
Really cute.
We fight because other people are too damn sorry. Not how this was meant to go.
Would you send your son to die for someone else?
I wouldn’t. WWII was a sham. WWI was too.
And now I’m having doubts about Spanish American war too
Trump just ordered a complete withdrawal.
Pentagon state it is in response to Turkeys cutting off all US supply lines and not sticking to the agreed upon "buffer zone", as well as direct threats against US held areas.
Trump got bitch slapped again...
Interesting take on this. What happened to the "Trump will start WWIII with his ego" angle?
It looks like Turkey was going to do what they wanted all along, Trump pulled out knowing he would take a lot of heat domestically from both flanks but he didn't think it was worth going to war over.
morbidbattlecry
10-13-19, 19:51
Several hundred ISIS prisoners released because of Turkish air strikes. https://www.businessinsider.com/syria-isis-relatives-fled-kurdish-camp-after-turkish-airstrike-2019-10
I’m just sick of the US being Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Legion.
Iran could wipe them off the map for all I care. F em.
That may not be “correct” or thinking “long term” or “strategic”
But I said it, I mean it, and it felt good to verbalize it.
Thank you it needs to be said. The borders were established by Europeans to ensure internal strife. Let them sort out the natural boundaries and Shiite versus Sunni. They try to play outside their sandbox then we drop ordinance on their heads until they are weakened and neighbors are a threat to keep them busy.
Wahhabism must be crippled. Iran could do that. Then let the other Sunni be a thorn in Iran’s side. And eventually the Turks and Egyptians will be jealous of the Iranians. Go to it boys!
MountainRaven
10-14-19, 13:20
NPR is reporting that the Kurds have made an agreement with the Syrian government and Syrian forces are now racing to the Turkish border. They are also reporting that there are unconfirmed reports of Turkish forces and Turkish-backed militias slaughtering Kurds and Syrian Christians.
You're right.
We should declare war on Turkey.Re: Trump getting b**** slapped... Yeah maybe we should nuke Turkey.
Some of the comments are just stupid.
I expect Turkey to pay a fairly high price for this. It's already started with sanctions. There are indications that this has turkey's attention. Turkey wants and needs to be part of NATO, if they go misbehaving this could create issues for that.
We are getting minimal information on actual dialogue between turkey. Mainstream media is perpetuating the b**** slap concept which some people are glomming right onto.
I don't know if this was a good decision by Trump or not, but I don't think he's stupid. And I do think he's got some instincts on this which I can't disagree with too much.
The fact that retired and even some current generals may not agree with this entirely is neither surprising nor concerning. They nearly always are pro engagement. It's their reason to exist.
NPR is reporting that the Kurds have made an agreement with the Syrian government and Syrian forces are now racing to the Turkish border. They are also reporting that there are unconfirmed reports of Turkish forces and Turkish-backed militias slaughtering Kurds and Syrian Christians.
Serious question:
How does this affect me or anybody else here?
How does this cost us money?
Why should we honestly care?
Cite sources. Show your work. Please avoid likening any of this to World War II.
Thank you
Grand58742
10-14-19, 13:29
Interesting article:
https://www.axios.com/trump-erdogan-turkey-syria-invasion-bluff-fc761d8f-e33b-473b-8ece-d0b8b3a51f26.html
Trump would tell Erdoğan that if he wanted to invade Syria he would have to own whatever mess ensued, according to these sources. Erdoğan would have to take care of ISIS and manage international condemnation, trouble from Capitol Hill, and the quagmire with the Kurds. And when Trump put it in such stark terms to Erdoğan, the Turkish leader would demur. Until last Sunday, that is, when he told Trump he was moving ahead with the invasion of northern Syria.
This time, Erdoğan called Trump's bluff, having waited for international forces to wipe out the ISIS caliphate.
Erdoğan's decision — which the White House cleared the way for in its Sunday night announcement, alienating and blindsiding key allies including Republican lawmakers and the Christian right — has plunged the Middle East and Trump's political standing in Washington into crisis.
I'm not sure Erdogan called Trump's bluff instead of Trump calling his bluff...
Erdogan: "I'm going to invade!"
Trump: "I've been telling you for two years not to..."
Erdogan: "I'm really going to do it this time!"
Trump: "Okay, enjoy the mess you're about to get into and let me pull my troops back..."
MountainRaven
10-14-19, 14:04
Serious question:
How does this affect me or anybody else here?
How does this cost us money?
Why should we honestly care?
Cite sources. Show your work. Please avoid likening any of this to World War II.
Thank you
Apathy is death.
Interesting article:
https://www.axios.com/trump-erdogan-turkey-syria-invasion-bluff-fc761d8f-e33b-473b-8ece-d0b8b3a51f26.html
I'm not sure Erdogan called Trump's bluff instead of Trump calling his bluff...
Erdogan: "I'm going to invade!"
Trump: "I've been telling you for two years not to..."
Erdogan: "I'm really going to do it this time!"
Trump: "Okay, enjoy the mess you're about to get into and let me pull my troops back..."
I've never seen anyone call a bluff by folding.
I'm guessing I still haven't.
Grand58742
10-14-19, 14:38
Apathy is death.
I've never seen anyone call a bluff by folding.
I'm guessing I still haven't.
Ignorance is even worse than death. And you, my friend, are flirting dangerously with being so anti-Trump it's making you stupid.
Digital_Damage
10-14-19, 14:42
Re: Trump getting b**** slapped... Yeah maybe we should nuke Turkey.
Some of the comments are just stupid.
I expect Turkey to pay a fairly high price for this. It's already started with sanctions. There are indications that this has turkey's attention. Turkey wants and needs to be part of NATO, if they go misbehaving this could create issues for that.
We are getting minimal information on actual dialogue between turkey. Mainstream media is perpetuating the b**** slap concept which some people are glomming right onto.
I don't know if this was a good decision by Trump or not, but I don't think he's stupid. And I do think he's got some instincts on this which I can't disagree with too much.
The fact that retired and even some current generals may not agree with this entirely is neither surprising nor concerning. They nearly always are pro engagement. It's their reason to exist.
Because Sanctions have resulted in dialog that resulted in a compromise when?
and
Trump has shown himself to be quite the idiot...
So you got nothing. Thought so.
Oh I pay attention but their problems are not my problems. Not everyone is a potential Hitler. Not everything is another World War waiting in the wings.
If anything the mere TERM World War is boomer AF. Every military action since Korea has been America hauling ass across the world to some piece of shit place to fight where other people live and aside from the usual spying or errant act of terror the only people actively invading us are the goddamned Mexicans, Colombians, and Salvadorans sending military aged men our way hourly.
Let someone else play police. Russia went BROKE over Afghanistan.
Hell I actively encourage the Red Chinese to deploy troops, invade, do the usual and lose life, time, and money over people who can’t shut the fvck up about muh mohammed, muh tribes, muh land, muh friend aint your friend blah blah blah.
Trump is doing the ONE thing nobody can take away from him that we desperately need as a nation right now.
He’s telling people No.
Because Sanctions have resulted in dialog that resulted in a compromise when?
and
Trump has shown himself to be quite the idiot...
Yes yes.... let’s just JDAM everyone over so we can keep this BS going.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Serious question:
How does this affect me or anybody else here?
How does this cost us money?
Why should we honestly care?
Cite sources. Show your work. Please avoid likening any of this to World War II.
Thank you
Why should we honestly care?
Wow, bro, are you really that self-centered?
Ignorance is even worse than death. And you, my friend, are flirting dangerously with being so anti-Trump it's making you stupid.
You know, I used to be more proud of being American and sharing this country with my fellow Americans than I was of being a Marine. Not so much anymore.
Yes yes.... let’s just JDAM everyone over so we can keep this BS going.
Maybe if Obama has nutted up over red lines in the sand we wouldn’t be here now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ok that was an edit. Not sure what happened.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why should we honestly care?
Wow, bro, are you really that self-centered?
On this matter, yes.
9/11 was almost 20 years ago.
I am having a hard time seeing why we should send some Joe who either barely has his shorthairs or has kids over some place that simply is not worth it.
I’m over the John Wayne Iwo Jima Green Beret “you’re what this is all about” spiel.
I’m over America being the world’s ghetto cop
Yes, tonight some Kurdish girl is probably going to be raped and beheaded after her father gets shot dead.
To that I say, things are tough all over.
If we’re energy independent, f***em. If we aren’t state that that is the reason we’re there. I’d rather not spend any more tax dollars or American lives there. F***em...
What have we gotten out of being there? Dead soldiers and the Patriot Act. We’d be better off without either.
Averageman
10-14-19, 17:06
I've said it before,
I don't think t could tell my Son that deploying to Afghanistan or the Middle East to "Help keep America Free" would be a great idea for him.
I didn't see a damn thing worth dying for in the times I've been there
Grand58742
10-14-19, 18:09
You know, I used to be more proud of being American and sharing this country with my fellow Americans than I was of being a Marine. Not so much anymore.
I'm not proud of what my country, one that I also served and fought for, has become.
One where career politicians sit in Congress and get rich off sending American boys and girls to die in places they frankly don't care about except during two minute interviews on TV.
Tired of the political party not in the White House opposing a President's plan just because how dare they actually agree with anything he says.
Tired of the brainless masses that swallow whole any lie they hear on the "news" or Twitter or Facebook or whatever social media platform happens to be en vogue.
How in the blue eff has this country gotten this way?
The ONLY reason U.S. troops should be anywhere other than here in the U.S. is for revenge/payback, like Afghanistan right after 9-11. Maybe for a year or so later, but for 18 years? No, screw that. Nation building is bullshit. I get where the long term "bigger picture" guys are coming from; leaving it in ruins creates a vacuum to be filled by XXX (fill in your bad-guy group here). Yes, I see that part.
I am a firm believer in a "scorched earth" policy. Punitive invasions/military actions. You poke your finger in our eye then we punch you in the throat, kick you in the balls, and knee you in the face. Destroy infrastructure (yep, water, sanitation, dams, power, etc.). Unseat the government after destroying their military. THEN walk out (not run like you're being chased) and leave the place in ruins and it's people reeling with disaster. Don't give a shit if they starve, don't have clean drinking water, or their lives now suck way beyond what their shithole country provided them before. Too bad so sad. Don't f**k with us then. Oh, if we have to come back, it's double the pain.
The ONLY reason U.S. troops should be anywhere other than here in the U.S. is for revenge/payback, like Afghanistan right after 9-11. Maybe for a year or so later, but for 18 years? No, screw that. Nation building is bullshit. I get where the long term "bigger picture" guys are coming from; leaving it in ruins creates a vacuum to be filled by XXX (fill in your bad-guy group here). Yes, I see that part.
I am a firm believer in a "scorched earth" policy. Punitive invasions/military actions. You poke your finger in our eye then we punch you in the throat, kick you in the balls, and knee you in the face. Destroy infrastructure (yep, water, sanitation, dams, power, etc.). Unseat the government after destroying their military. THEN walk out (not run like you're being chased) and leave the place in ruins and it's people reeling with disaster. Don't give a shit if they starve, don't have clean drinking water, or their lives now suck way beyond what their shithole country provided them before. Too bad so sad. Don't f**k with us then. Oh, if we have to come back, it's double the pain.
Samesies
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
NPR is reporting that the Kurds have made an agreement with the Syrian government and Syrian forces are now racing to the Turkish border.
If the Turks are advancing South, and the Syrians are racing North... where exactly is ISIS going to reform? Because that was yesterday's prediction.
The ONLY reason U.S. troops should be anywhere other than here in the U.S. is for revenge/payback, like Afghanistan right after 9-11. Maybe for a year or so later, but for 18 years? No, screw that. Nation building is bullshit. I get where the long term "bigger picture" guys are coming from; leaving it in ruins creates a vacuum to be filled by XXX (fill in your bad-guy group here). Yes, I see that part.
I am a firm believer in a "scorched earth" policy. Punitive invasions/military actions. You poke your finger in our eye then we punch you in the throat, kick you in the balls, and knee you in the face. Destroy infrastructure (yep, water, sanitation, dams, power, etc.). Unseat the government after destroying their military. THEN walk out (not run like you're being chased) and leave the place in ruins and it's people reeling with disaster. Don't give a shit if they starve, don't have clean drinking water, or their lives now suck way beyond what their shithole country provided them before. Too bad so sad. Don't f**k with us then. Oh, if we have to come back, it's double the pain.
OMG This all day.
Only way people will learn. Japan grilled and flexed hard until two of their cities got atomized.
Now they draw us dirty cartoons and make video games and most importantly sit the F down and shut the F up.
Again, they considered their Emperor to be a LIVING GOD.
then they got atom bombs shoved up their ass.
Now they chill AF.
MountainRaven
10-14-19, 19:06
OMG This all day.
Only way people will learn. Japan grilled and flexed hard until two of their cities got atomized.
Now they draw us dirty cartoons and make video games and most importantly sit the F down and shut the F up.
Again, they considered their Emperor to be a LIVING GOD.
then they got atom bombs shoved up their ass.
Now they chill AF.
We still have military bases in Germany, Italy, and Japan, over 74 years after we defeated them.
Grand58742
10-14-19, 19:27
We still have military bases in Germany, Italy, and Japan, over 74 years after we defeated them.
There's a big difference in "forward basing" as well as our Cold War NATO/Far East commitments and "Occupation Army."
The military occupation of Germany and Japan officially ended in 1952.
Grand58742
10-14-19, 19:36
Just because I'm dumb enough to actually think I can sway opinions on this. Here's the timeline of the situation that has been in the works for quite some time:
Joint patrol deal struck:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/12/politics/us-troops-syria-turkey/index.html
https://www.france24.com/en/20190908-usa-turkey-troops-launch-joint-safe-zone-operation-northeast-syria
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-07/turkey-s-akar-says-syria-talks-with-u-s-were-positive-anadolu
Can't agree on the depth of the zone:
https://www.heritage.org/middle-east/commentary/no-were-not-selling-out-the-syrian-kurds-we-should-mediate-their-conflict
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/11/769293935/u-s-officials-slam-turkish-incursion-into-syria-that-has-displaced-70-000-people
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/with-turkish-offensive-looming-syrian-kurds-mobilize-civilian-defense/2019/10/09/4efca794-ea02-11e9-a329-7378fbfa1b63_story.html
Erdogan says "Eff you"
https://gulfnews.com/world/mena/turkeys-syria-safe-zone-deadline-expires-1.66821497
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-erdogan/turkey-cites-disagreements-with-u-s-even-as-joint-syria-patrols-begin-idUSKCN1VT0JI
Erdogan ready to invade:
https://www.rt.com/news/470264-turkey-ready-operations-syria/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-security-turkey-usa-idUSKCN1WK053
https://www.dailysabah.com/war-on-terror/2019/10/05/turkey-ready-for-operation-east-of-euphrates-in-syria-erdogan-says
Erdogan gets his wish two years in the making to teach that Tar Baby a lesson.
https://www.axios.com/trump-erdogan-turkey-syria-invasion-bluff-fc761d8f-e33b-473b-8ece-d0b8b3a51f26.html
And here we are.
This is the kinda shit you aren't going to see in the mainstream media. Furthermore, where is the international condemnation for our actions? How many nations have screeched and screamed about us "abandoning" the SDF? On the same token, how many of them have condemned Erdogan for tossing the match into the drum of gasoline?
Exactly, crickets.
Meanwhile ABC News hopes that their viewers can't tell the difference between Syria and Kentucky:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/abc-news-slaughter-in-syria-footage-appears-to-come-from-a-kentucky-gun-range
Footage from the Knob Creek Machinegun shoot was used to accompany a story titled Crisis in Syria:
https://youtu.be/BuO6yJrRAYw
Look at all the periscoping with smartphones.....
Admittedly it does look like a one sided fight. :sarcastic:
At least normies know what a hootenanny can look like
Because Sanctions have resulted in dialog that resulted in a compromise when?
and
Trump has shown himself to be quite the idiot...
So what was the alternative? I'll ask again? Jump the 173rd and 82nd in and tell them to fight hard while they wait to be reinforced? Or bomb Turkey?
Would Turkey have advanced with a brigade and a half of quick reaction force in country? Don't know.
Erdogon is not acting rationally. The EU just established sanctions against a fellow NATO member.
Yes yes.... let’s just JDAM everyone over so we can keep this BS going.
Zackly. People are clueless about the alternative. I think they're being deliberately obtuse on this point just out of hatred for the trumpster.
I've said it before,
I don't think t could tell my Son that deploying to Afghanistan or the Middle East to "Help keep America Free" would be a great idea for him.
I didn't see a damn thing worth dying for in the times I've been there
My son recently spent 3 years on 50% hot standby as a line IN LT, would most likely have had to jump in if Trump made a different decision.
So glad he's now in a mech unit. They'll still have to deploy, but less likely to have to jump in as a speed bump in eastern europe or Syria.
I am a firm believer in a "scorched earth" policy. Punitive invasions/military actions. You poke your finger in our eye then we punch you in the throat, kick you in the balls, and knee you in the face. Destroy infrastructure (yep, water, sanitation, dams, power, etc.). Unseat the government after destroying their military. THEN walk out (not run like you're being chased) and leave the place in ruins and it's people reeling with disaster.
That's kind of my version of a modern era Monroe doctrine. Dont care too much about outside of the carribean, central america, etc. Mess with us, we go do what we have to do, leave very strong disincentives not to do it again. Then go back home. Let the rest of the NATO allies deal with the peacekeeping and sort out the vacuum
I'm not proud of what my country, one that I also served and fought for, has become.
One where career politicians sit in Congress and get rich off sending American boys and girls to die in places they frankly don't care about except during two minute interviews on TV.
Tired of the political party not in the White House opposing a President's plan just because how dare they actually agree with anything he says.
Tired of the brainless masses that swallow whole any lie they hear on the "news" or Twitter or Facebook or whatever social media platform happens to be en vogue.
How in the blue eff has this country gotten this way?
Too many folks with the 'eff you, I got mine' attitude.
Plus a love affair with corporations.
Plus way too many folks who have abandoned the concept of the nuclear family - married, two kids - for a hedonistic life style.
I could go on, but bottom line is - we'll do the same thing we bitched about the Dems doing to get our side ahead, in other words, situational ethics and mores.
Too many folks with the 'eff you, I got mine' attitude.
Plus a love affair with corporations.
Plus way too many folks who have abandoned the concept of the nuclear family - married, two kids - for a hedonistic life style.
I could go on, but bottom line is - we'll do the same thing we bitched about the Dems doing to get our side ahead, in other words, situational ethics and mores.
Well I hate corporations and I wish our elected ifficials had the courage to do to google what they did to Ma Bell in the day.
I wish Red China would likewise get told to get dunked.
But I would like a son so bad. And nobody has explained yet to me how sending my son to a shithole to potentially die for ungrateful people who are absolutely nothing to me is accomplishing anything.
I think everyone has been brainwashed by WWII. Desert Storm was a bit of a fluke because tgese arabs cooperated and when it was done it was done.
I'm actually surprised people want to keep the forever war bit going.
These people are never going to be grateful.
Grand58742
10-15-19, 06:51
Meanwhile ABC News hopes that their viewers can't tell the difference between Syria and Kentucky:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/abc-news-slaughter-in-syria-footage-appears-to-come-from-a-kentucky-gun-range
Footage from the Knob Creek Machinegun shoot was used to accompany a story titled Crisis in Syria:
https://youtu.be/BuO6yJrRAYw
Look at all the periscoping with smartphones.....
Admittedly it does look like a one sided fight. :sarcastic:
https://i.imgflip.com/3dcv2j.jpg
The_War_Wagon
10-15-19, 09:31
^^^ :p
https://i.ibb.co/8DFm4S4/abc1.jpg
Just so I am tracking.....
Erdogan is going way off script and is essentially going rogue
And Trump is trying desperately to get us out of a puddle of shit so no more American lives are wasted in that part of the world.
But Trump is an idiot for not doubling down on shit that simply does not work?
Makes sense....NOT.
If Turkey wants to be that way then they can GTFO of NATO. It’s a Cold War relic anyways.
If anything we had best be resurrecting SEATO given China’s frogginess
Whiskey_Bravo
10-15-19, 12:24
Just so I am tracking.....
Erdogan is going way off script and is essentially going rogue
And Trump is trying desperately to get us out of a puddle of shit so no more American lives are wasted in that part of the world.
But Trump is an idiot for not doubling down on shit that simply does not work?
Makes sense....NOT.
If Turkey wants to be that way then they can GTFO of NATO. It’s a Cold War relic anyways.
If anything we had best be resurrecting SEATO given China’s frogginess
This. All of this.
I hope we are in the planning stages of pulling out of Turkey and taking all of our toys with us. Turkey is not our friend and should not be in NATO. Let the EU have them.
Just so I am tracking.....
Erdogan is going way off script and is essentially going rogue
And Trump is trying desperately to get us out of a puddle of shit so no more American lives are wasted in that part of the world.
But Trump is an idiot for not doubling down on shit that simply does not work?
Makes sense....NOT.
If Turkey wants to be that way then they can GTFO of NATO. It’s a Cold War relic anyways.
If anything we had best be resurrecting SEATO given China’s frogginess
x1,000.
Just so I am tracking.....
Erdogan is going way off script and is essentially going rogue
And Trump is trying desperately to get us out of a puddle of shit so no more American lives are wasted in that part of the world.
But Trump is an idiot for not doubling down on shit that simply does not work?
Makes sense....NOT.
If Turkey wants to be that way then they can GTFO of NATO. It’s a Cold War relic anyways.
If anything we had best be resurrecting SEATO given China’s frogginessPreach
Meanwhile ABC News hopes that their viewers can't tell the difference between Syria and Kentucky:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/abc-news-slaughter-in-syria-footage-appears-to-come-from-a-kentucky-gun-range
Footage from the Knob Creek Machinegun shoot was used to accompany a story titled Crisis in Syria:
https://youtu.be/BuO6yJrRAYw
Look at all the periscoping with smartphones.....
Admittedly it does look like a one sided fight. :sarcastic:
59139
59139
Anyone today who believes anything the MSM says has cranial rectal inversion.
I’m surprised no one has latched onto the weapons of war bit from knob creek yet honestly
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've said it before,
I don't think t could tell my Son that deploying to Afghanistan or the Middle East to "Help keep America Free" would be a great idea for him.
I didn't see a damn thing worth dying for in the times I've been there
A little over 8 years ago it was early 2011. A decade had passed since 9/11 and a good friend of mine was deploying as a scout/sniper to Afghanistan. In my tired old eyes, he was a youngling I'd trained to shoot fast and hard with a pistol during many days training and competing on a square range. Having been deployed in the ME many, many years before and knowing he may soon do likewise, we talked often about military ops and things like patriotism. I could see in him what I had been all those years ago, still gung-ho and willing to "defend America" halfway across the world.
When he got orders to go to Afghanistan, one of my final talks with him was about the last man. We'd been in Afghanistan for a decade at that point and it looked far less like pursuing bin Laden (who hadn't been in Afghanistan in years) and more like Russia's Afghanistan war redux. So I talked at length about how we weren't actually accomplishing anything there, that no one ever remembers the last man killed in the last days of a war, and to not skyline himself for country or glory, because the country doesn't need it and there's no glory in being the last man to die. I specifically told him to ostensibly follow orders, but that no one will care if he comes back to base camp from patrol having neither seen nor engaged any hostiles. Just make it look good and come home alive.
On 9 September, 2011, he and two others in his platoon were killed in a Taliban ambush. For what? In the fall of 2011, what was strategically important to the United States in Paktya, Afghanistan? Not a ****ing thing. Did any of those goat ****ers shooting holes in him ever meet bin Laden or al Zawahiri? Nope. Were they fighting for them? Nope. They could've just as easily been fighting the Russians or the British or Alexander the Great. Wash, rinse, repeat...
So what did we gain from his death? Nothing. In exchange for all the gunpowder we'll never burn together and all the beer we'll never drink afterwards, I have a black bracelet on my wrist and a memorial highway sign with his name on it I drive past every day on my way home from work. That's the worst trade in the history of trades. Consider the jading of glocktogo 100% complete and then some.
I tend to think that out of all the indigenous peoples in that region, the Kurds are likely the least offensive. They're stateless, relatively powerless and have been persecuted for centuries. They mostly just want to be left alone. The people aligned against them are ISIS, the Turks, possibly some Syrian hostiles and all the leftovers in Southern Iraq? Sorry, I see no good guys on the roster. So if anyone asked me whether I'd recommend joining the military to "defend our country" and help spread "democracy", I'd tell them they've lost their ****ing minds. Sure if you don't have any opportunities whatsoever, by all means join the .mil in a non-combat, mostly stateside support role and save some bank while using them for all the education benefits you can get, but an open ended contract? Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me dawg.
When an actual existential threat to the United States from without appears on the far horizon I may change my tune. Till then I'm all for pulling back and nuking it from orbit, just to make sure.
morbidbattlecry
10-15-19, 16:37
I see people here saying they aren't willing to sacrifice their sons or daughters for the Kurds, that why should we send them there. The thing is we asked them to do the exact same thing And they did. It's a stain on the honor of the US for us to give the finger to allies that so helped us.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-15-19, 16:48
I see people here saying they aren't willing to sacrifice their sons or daughters for the Kurds, that why should we send them there. The thing is we asked them to do the exact same thing And they did. It's a stain on the honor of the US for us to give the finger to allies that so helped us.
They were already there fighting. They have been fighting Turkey for decades. They have been attempting to carve out their own country for a long time. We convinced them to fight with us through various means to accomplish a goal that we wanted and was mutually beneficial to them. We gave them money, training, and weapons to be on our side for the time being. We didn't ask them to go fight ISIS or anyone else on a foreign soil. Also, there are multiple groups of Kurds. The guys in Syria are not the Peshmerga in Northern Iraq.
Before anyone criticizes pulling out of Syria ask yourself why we are there? What grand US interest are we fighting for?
1) ISIS. Well we laid the groundwork for the creation of ISIS by running arms to Syria from Libya and funding rebel groups to try to topple Assad. One group went more vicious than planned and over ran Iraqis supply depots we created along with banks we probably helped fund. All because of our meddling.
2) Saudis. They are very nervous about the spread of Iranian power so having us destabilize an sally/proxy of Iran, Syria, is all good for them and screw the US for whatever mess they get themselves embroiled in. Thanks House of Saud.
3) Pipelines. RUSSIA-UKRAINE pipeline supplies natural gas to Europe (oh yes another area in conflict, coincidentally). IRAN-LEBANON pipeline was being planned/built through Iraq, Syria and Lebanon then undersea to Europe. Was originally going through Turkey but Iran changed plans. Turkey mad. Russia not like competition unless they get a slice. On hold while Syria is in turmoil (who wants to keep Syria destabilized?). QATAR-TURKEY pipeline is proposed competitor to Iran pipeline and of course existing Russian, and supported by Saudis and US but can’t happen with Assad in power.
4) Petro Dollar. Our politicians want unlimited spending to continue. This is main reason we can run $500B-$1.5T deficits for the last 10 years. We need Saudi support to keep Petro Dollar in power. We therefore attack anyone the Saudis tell us to smash. Saudis want Assad out of Syria or at least destabilized. So we create rebel groups, ISIS emerges, we keep stirring the pot.
That is why we need troops there to fight and die for decades. We accomplished in 2-3 months in both Afghanistan and Iraq the crushing of terrorist threat to the US. All other occupation is for reasons stated above.
They were already there fighting. They have been fighting Turkey for decades. They have been attempting to carve out their own country for a long time. We convinced them to fight with us through various means to accomplish a goal that we wanted and was mutually beneficial to them. We gave them money, training, and weapons to be on our side for the time being. We didn't ask them to go fight ISIS or anyone else on a foreign soil. Also, there are multiple groups of Kurds. The guys in Syria are not the Peshmerga in Northern Iraq.
Do you honestly believe the US deserves any indigenous allies fighting on our behalf when we decide to invade some place at this point?
I don't. That's just one more reason we shouldn't be going there, much less staying there.
morbidbattlecry
10-15-19, 17:49
They were already there fighting. They have been fighting Turkey for decades. They have been attempting to carve out their own country for a long time. We convinced them to fight with us through various means to accomplish a goal that we wanted and was mutually beneficial to them. We gave them money, training, and weapons to be on our side for the time being. We didn't ask them to go fight ISIS or anyone else on a foreign soil. Also, there are multiple groups of Kurds. The guys in Syria are not the Peshmerga in Northern Iraq.
Really? I thought they were the same group/area of people. Never mind then.
I see people here saying they aren't willing to sacrifice their sons or daughters for the Kurds, that why should we send them there. The thing is we asked them to do the exact same thing And they did. It's a stain on the honor of the US for us to give the finger to allies that so helped us.The thing is, the American people didn't ask anything of the kurds. I don't know of anyone who supported going into Syria in the first place.
I feel zero obligation to be there. We should have never been there in the first place. The president that I voted for, did what I would have wanted him to do.
Even if Trump is an idiot, he is overall, still doing the things that I voted for.
Sent from my moto e5 (XT1920DL) using Tapatalk
Before anyone criticizes pulling out of Syria ask yourself why we are there? What grand US interest are we fighting for?
1) ISIS. Well we laid the groundwork for the creation of ISIS by running arms to Syria from Libya and funding rebel groups to try to topple Assad. One group went more vicious than planned and over ran Iraqis supply depots we created along with banks we probably helped fund. All because of our meddling.
2) Saudis. They are very nervous about the spread of Iranian power so having us destabilize an sally/proxy of Iran, Syria, is all good for them and screw the US for whatever mess they get themselves embroiled in. Thanks House of Saud.
3) Pipelines. RUSSIA-UKRAINE pipeline supplies natural gas to Europe (oh yes another area in conflict, coincidentally). IRAN-LEBANON pipeline was being planned/built through Iraq, Syria and Lebanon then undersea to Europe. Was originally going through Turkey but Iran changed plans. Turkey mad. Russia not like competition unless they get a slice. On hold while Syria is in turmoil (who wants to keep Syria destabilized?). QATAR-TURKEY pipeline is proposed competitor to Iran pipeline and of course existing Russian, and supported by Saudis and US but can’t happen with Assad in power.
4) Petro Dollar. Our politicians want unlimited spending to continue. This is main reason we can run $500B-$1.5T deficits for the last 10 years. We need Saudi support to keep Petro Dollar in power. We therefore attack anyone the Saudis tell us to smash. Saudis want Assad out of Syria or at least destabilized. So we create rebel groups, ISIS emerges, we keep stirring the pot.
That is why we need troops there to fight and die for decades. We accomplished in 2-3 months in both Afghanistan and Iraq the crushing of terrorist threat to the US. All other occupation is for reasons stated above.
2 & 4 by themselves explain most of what we've done in the ME since Reagan.
Grand58742
10-15-19, 22:31
I hope we are in the planning stages of pulling out of Turkey and taking all of our toys with us. Turkey is not our friend and should not be in NATO.
This is what concerns me the most. We have several thousand US troops sitting right smack dab in the middle of that craphole. And I for one don't trust Erdogan not to be the ultimate d-bag and trying to get at what's underground at Incirlik. Not only that, but steamrolling right over the troops there to protect them because he wants the power.
I can only hope (as I've had suspicions a long time) they have removed the critical components on those things and replaced them with ultra realistic fakes as soon as he came into power.
Grand58742
10-15-19, 22:35
A little over 8 years ago it was early 2011. A decade had passed since 9/11 and a good friend of mine was deploying as a scout/sniper to Afghanistan. In my tired old eyes, he was a youngling I'd trained to shoot fast and hard with a pistol during many days training and competing on a square range. Having been deployed in the ME many, many years before and knowing he may soon do likewise, we talked often about military ops and things like patriotism. I could see in him what I had been all those years ago, still gung-ho and willing to "defend America" halfway across the world.
When he got orders to go to Afghanistan, one of my final talks with him was about the last man. We'd been in Afghanistan for a decade at that point and it looked far less like pursuing bin Laden (who hadn't been in Afghanistan in years) and more like Russia's Afghanistan war redux. So I talked at length about how we weren't actually accomplishing anything there, that no one ever remembers the last man killed in the last days of a war, and to not skyline himself for country or glory, because the country doesn't need it and there's no glory in being the last man to die. I specifically told him to ostensibly follow orders, but that no one will care if he comes back to base camp from patrol having neither seen nor engaged any hostiles. Just make it look good and come home alive.
On 9 September, 2011, he and two others in his platoon were killed in a Taliban ambush. For what? In the fall of 2011, what was strategically important to the United States in Paktya, Afghanistan? Not a ****ing thing. Did any of those goat ****ers shooting holes in him ever meet bin Laden or al Zawahiri? Nope. Were they fighting for them? Nope. They could've just as easily been fighting the Russians or the British or Alexander the Great. Wash, rinse, repeat...
So what did we gain from his death? Nothing. In exchange for all the gunpowder we'll never burn together and all the beer we'll never drink afterwards, I have a black bracelet on my wrist and a memorial highway sign with his name on it I drive past every day on my way home from work. That's the worst trade in the history of trades. Consider the jading of glocktogo 100% complete and then some.
I tend to think that out of all the indigenous peoples in that region, the Kurds are likely the least offensive. They're stateless, relatively powerless and have been persecuted for centuries. They mostly just want to be left alone. The people aligned against them are ISIS, the Turks, possibly some Syrian hostiles and all the leftovers in Southern Iraq? Sorry, I see no good guys on the roster. So if anyone asked me whether I'd recommend joining the military to "defend our country" and help spread "democracy", I'd tell them they've lost their ****ing minds. Sure if you don't have any opportunities whatsoever, by all means join the .mil in a non-combat, mostly stateside support role and save some bank while using them for all the education benefits you can get, but an open ended contract? Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me dawg.
When an actual existential threat to the United States from without appears on the far horizon I may change my tune. Till then I'm all for pulling back and nuking it from orbit, just to make sure.
http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/jShr8wkP38XTO/giphy.gif
Grand58742
10-15-19, 23:07
Spoke too soon...
https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria
Officials are reviewing plans to evacuate up to 50 U.S. nuclear bombs that have long been stored at Incirlik Air Base in Turkey in the wake of Ankara's military offensive in northern Syria, according to a report.
The weapons are now essentially "hostage" to Turkish leader Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a senior official told The New York Times on Monday.
The Cold War-era B61 nuclear bombs are said to be 100-250 miles from the Syrian border, according to The Guardian. A former U.S. official told the outlet that Turkish diplomats responded to suggestions about moving the bombs by saying Turkey would start to develop its own.
"The potential problems have been discussed for over a decade," the former official said. "And now we’ve finally gotten to a point where this is a problem that we can’t ignore anymore."
Again, I have my doubts on whether or not they are actually live regardless of NATO Nuclear Sharing policy.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-16-19, 08:54
Do you honestly believe the US deserves any indigenous allies fighting on our behalf when we decide to invade some place at this point?
I don't. That's just one more reason we shouldn't be going there, much less staying there.
The entire point of my post is that we owe them them nothing and we needed to leave Syria. The Kurds there fought with us due to the points I mentioned. The US doesn't "deserve" anything in that area, that is why we buy it with cash, weapons, ammo, and protection.
As I have already mentioned in this thread, we need to be 100% out of Syria and we also need to pull out Turkey. They are part of NATO in name only and we should not have our people or nukes there.
A little over 8 years ago it was early 2011. A decade had passed since 9/11 and a good friend of mine was deploying as a scout/sniper to Afghanistan. In my tired old eyes, he was a youngling I'd trained to shoot fast and hard with a pistol during many days training and competing on a square range. Having been deployed in the ME many, many years before and knowing he may soon do likewise, we talked often about military ops and things like patriotism. I could see in him what I had been all those years ago, still gung-ho and willing to "defend America" halfway across the world.
When he got orders to go to Afghanistan, one of my final talks with him was about the last man. We'd been in Afghanistan for a decade at that point and it looked far less like pursuing bin Laden (who hadn't been in Afghanistan in years) and more like Russia's Afghanistan war redux. So I talked at length about how we weren't actually accomplishing anything there, that no one ever remembers the last man killed in the last days of a war, and to not skyline himself for country or glory, because the country doesn't need it and there's no glory in being the last man to die. I specifically told him to ostensibly follow orders, but that no one will care if he comes back to base camp from patrol having neither seen nor engaged any hostiles. Just make it look good and come home alive.
On 9 September, 2011, he and two others in his platoon were killed in a Taliban ambush. For what? In the fall of 2011, what was strategically important to the United States in Paktya, Afghanistan? Not a ****ing thing. Did any of those goat ****ers shooting holes in him ever meet bin Laden or al Zawahiri? Nope. Were they fighting for them? Nope. They could've just as easily been fighting the Russians or the British or Alexander the Great. Wash, rinse, repeat...
So what did we gain from his death? Nothing. In exchange for all the gunpowder we'll never burn together and all the beer we'll never drink afterwards, I have a black bracelet on my wrist and a memorial highway sign with his name on it I drive past every day on my way home from work. That's the worst trade in the history of trades. Consider the jading of glocktogo 100% complete and then some.
I tend to think that out of all the indigenous peoples in that region, the Kurds are likely the least offensive. They're stateless, relatively powerless and have been persecuted for centuries. They mostly just want to be left alone. The people aligned against them are ISIS, the Turks, possibly some Syrian hostiles and all the leftovers in Southern Iraq? Sorry, I see no good guys on the roster. So if anyone asked me whether I'd recommend joining the military to "defend our country" and help spread "democracy", I'd tell them they've lost their ****ing minds. Sure if you don't have any opportunities whatsoever, by all means join the .mil in a non-combat, mostly stateside support role and save some bank while using them for all the education benefits you can get, but an open ended contract? Yeah, that's gonna be a no from me dawg.
When an actual existential threat to the United States from without appears on the far horizon I may change my tune. Till then I'm all for pulling back and nuking it from orbit, just to make sure.
These are all of my concerns exactly. Nothing we have accomplished is worth the cost of blood and resources. There had to be a better way.
Cease fire and mil withdrawl just announced
The entire point of my post is that we owe them them nothing and we needed to leave Syria. The Kurds there fought with us due to the points I mentioned. The US doesn't "deserve" anything in that area, that is why we buy it with cash, weapons, ammo, and protection.
As I have already mentioned in this thread, we need to be 100% out of Syria and we also need to pull out Turkey. They are part of NATO in name only and we should not have our people or nukes there.
Agreed.
FromMyColdDeadHand
10-18-19, 08:41
If the Congress wants a war, they can declare a war. I’d love to see what the declaration would look like.
It’s like Trump sold a position in a stock when Congress wasn’t looking. They can buy it back if they want....
If the Congress wants a war, they can declare a war.
Lol that’ll be the day.
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FromMyColdDeadHand
10-18-19, 09:17
Lol that’ll be the day.
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The vote would be fun to watch. The debate on the actual verbiage would be priceless. I'm sure there would be a gender-equity clause in it and some kind of 'only green, organic and GMO free bullets"....
If the Congress wants a war, they can declare a war. I’d love to see what the declaration would look like.
I admit that I'm pretty hawkish, but this is what we should go back to - kind of like the law says, huh?
I admit that I'm pretty hawkish, but this is what we should go back to - kind of like the law says, huh?
Think of all the “wars” we have been involved in yet Congress has only declared it in 5 wars: The War of 1812, Mexican American War, The Spanish American War, WW1 and WW2.
I would be totally fine with following the law and let Congress shoulder their Constitutional responsibility. I believe the President can respond to emergencies which is for only 90 days(?). After that we we should be doing a mandatory declaration or withdrawal. No executive extensions or passes by Congress.
Besides, we can drop a lot of nukes in 90 days!
Think of all the “wars” we have been involved in yet Congress has only declared it in 5 wars: The War of 1812, Mexican American War, The Spanish American War, WW1 and WW2.
There is no format given for congress to declare war. GWOT authorization of force was declared.
There is no format given for congress to declare war. GWOT authorization of force was declared.
The generally accepted format for the last 150 years or so has been for an act of Congress to be passed the contains the words “declare war.” The undeclared wars are what we are talking about. The ones waged based solely on Authorizations of Congress (all since 1942). The 1973 Wars Powers Act was supposed to prevent “more Vietnams,” which it did until GWOT. Those were all limited timeframe wars: Grenada, Iraq 1, Kosovo (stretched it a bit), etc.
The GWOT trashes all aspects of Constitutional powers in two ways. War is declared by our nation on one or more other nations. “Terror” is not a nation and no way to get a formal surrender or victory. This should never have been allowed. The specific enemy nations should have been enumerated. This kind of implies that we not go terrorist hunting and pretend we are still friends with the nation they are hiding in. We either stay out and try to get the host nation to kill them, or we declare war on the host nation(s) and make no bones apart stomping through to root them out.
Secondly, Authorizations are for a 60-day period for emergencies only. I don’t know how they got around this unless they just trashed the War Powers Resolution. So the GWOT is diametrically opposed to the very idea the Founders had, and was confirmed after Vietnam: we do not want forever wars. If we commit our military it should be for defined nations and victory, or for very short term emergencies. 18 years is not an emergency (acute) condition. It is a non-emergency condition (chronic) that may take many clearly defined steps to address. But never should be open ended invasion, rebellions, occupations that have no end point.
Belmont31R
10-19-19, 18:54
Do you honestly believe the US deserves any indigenous allies fighting on our behalf when we decide to invade some place at this point?
I don't. That's just one more reason we shouldn't be going there, much less staying there.
They weren't fighting on our behalf. They were fighting because fighting benefits them, and we were giving them $$$/supplies.
The Kurds, as a whole, want their own country, but there's several different groups of Kurds. The ones that helped us in N Iraq aren't the ones in N Syria. Some/many of the Kurds are communists who commit terrorism.
Lastly, Obama said 'no boots on the ground' how many times? Trump inherited this mess after Obama waffled around for years. If people care so much people can fly over there, get a rifle, and go fight with the Kurds. They accept foreign volunteers and will give you a gun to go shoot at Turks or ISIS types.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 does not specify the need for the words "declare war", the war to be against a recognized Nation State, or the war to be limited to a specific length of time.
Congress is clearly using their Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 power when they "authorize the use of military force". You may think they do so foolishly, but there is also no law against Congress passing foolish laws. Yet...
Todd, you and I will not resolve this because the Supreme Court has never ruled on it and Congress and Presidents differ.
These forever wars were a real concern by the Founders and various Congresses and even some Presidents and of course generals. Efforts like the War Powers Resolution specifically tried to rein that in in 1973 and pretty much held until GWOT. There needs to be serious deliberation if this and not just attack every nation the Saudis point us to.
I will just quote attorney Lincoln’s concern about unbridled warring (referencing the Mexican War):
"Let me first state what I understand to be your position. It is, that if it shall become necessary, to repel invasion, the President may, without violation of the Constitution, cross the line and invade the territory of another country; and that whether such necessity exists in any given case, the President is to be the sole judge. ... But Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so, whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose—and allow him to make war at pleasure. … If, to-day, he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada, to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him, 'I see no probability of the British invading us' but he will say to you 'be silent; I see it, if you don't.'
"The provision of the Constitution giving the war-making power to Congress, was dictated, as I understand it, by the following reasons. Kings had always been involving and impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always, that the good of the people was the object. This our Convention understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions; and they resolved to so frame the Constitution that no one man should hold the power of bringing this oppression upon us. But your view destroys the whole matter, and places our President where kings have always stood."
You are conflating two things. Quotes that show a concern for too much power to make war by the Executive can't be used against something Congress voted for.
Congress voting, by whatever name or process they see fit, fulfills the requirement that war be declared by Congress.
The Supreme Court can only decide if Congress is using a power given to them under the Constitution, not how they decide to use it or what words they have to use. (Unless it's a law that infringes upon other Rights) Here again you conflate, a real question of the President's emergency power vs Congress's power to declare war, with something Congress has authorized.
Interesting that strident critic Graham is now saying (Sunday shows) that Syria is turning out not so bad and may become an historic win. Maybe the Kurds, Syria and Turkey can find an agreeable balance and control ISIS by themselves without us romping around the countryside.
Trump just announced a "permanent" cease fire in Syria between the Turks and Kurds.. I know next to nothing about all of this, but this is good news.
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