View Full Version : KISS build decision
Eurodriver
10-14-19, 12:04
I have an LMT 10.5” SBR and a Colt 6920 outfitted identically. Surefire M300. VCAS sling. No optics. Both have a Troy BUIS.
I usually carry the LMT with me when I go on road trips. The 6920 is just a rifle that sits in the safe since it was so cheap but I’d like to find a purpose for it. The downside to the 6920 is I’d have to keep it disassembled because it’s loo long for my bag. The downside to the LMT is if I ever have to use it not having a 5320.20 might be an issue.
I’m debating on whether I should throw carry handles on both rifles and be done with it, or get an Aimpoint PRO or used M2/ML3 etc on one or both. I like the idea of not requiring batteries to shoot. If I did get an optic it would go on whichever rifle I used for travel.
Just trying to keep things simple. I put?
My slutty Colt had a carry handle for a reason.
I’d do that but that’s just me
While it might veer off the KISS track you could get one of those LAW folding stock things and that would reduce the OAL of your 6920 considerably (for carry in your bag in lieu of the LMT and it's requisite permission slip for out-of-state ventures). No reassembly required; just slap the stock back into position and you're ready to rock.
You can't go wrong with an Aimpoint PRO. For size/weight reduction a T-1 or T-2 is even better (not sure if you like those or not). The battery life on any of the Aimpoints is disgustingly l-o-n-g so it shouldn't be an issue. Since you have flip-ups even if the battery died you'd still be in business.
For peace of mind, you can just put a new battery in the Aimpoint once a year, should you go that route. If there was a catastrophe and your Aimpoint quit, you would use the back up irons just as effectively as otherwise.
Something like the comp m4s is attractive to me since AA batteries are everywhere. Also... 8 years of battery life!
Cons: heavy and super expensive new.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
I’m flabbergasted that the guy who likes to talk about blasting in the dark with NODs and a Glock 19 with more doodads for night shooting attached to it than both the aforementioned carbines are worth, is positing this question. All this about a carbine he intends to use to defend himself from brigands on the road.
I’ll just let this marinate. I think all the answers will spring up without anymore help.
Eurodriver
10-14-19, 12:50
I’m flabbergasted that the guy who likes to talk about blasting in the dark with NODs and a Glock 19 with more doodads for night shooting attached to it than both the aforementioned carbines are worth, is positing this question. All this about a carbine he intends to use to defend himself from brigands on the road.
I’ll just let this marinate. I think all the answers will spring up without anymore help.
This made me laugh (in a good way, although I’m unsure if your intentions were for it to sting a bit!)
I like getting input from others. I don’t pretend to be an expert. We all think differently. For example I’d never considered a LAW folder on the 6920 as ABNAK mentioned. I’ve thought about it for the LMT, but that doesn’t solve the 5320.20 problem.
It’s not that I mind having something expensive in my trunk, or that I want KISS because it’s cheap. It has everything to do with the peace of mind that comes with a KISS setup. I like that I never need to worry about anything. If I jam some stuff in the back or put a 75lb whatever on the bag the rifle is in I don’t concern myself with it losing zero if it has irons.
I have never had a T1 lose zero in the decade I’ve been using them but it’s the unwarranted worry that I’m trying to avoid. Not any actual negative impacts on the zero itself.
Hope that makes sense.
Seems like a personal preference thing.
If I'm chucking an AR in my Jeep for the day, which I usually do if I'm going to be in or around my vehicle a lot, (I don't bother if I'm going somewhere that I'm going to be leaving the vehicle for extended periods of time) *most* of the time it's an irons-only gun, either with a light already on it or a mounting point upon which I can put the cheap PA weaponlight I keep in my Jeep in the event I end up out after dark.
My 10.3" SBR currently has a carry handle on it, and the other two main guns that pull Jeep duty have a fixed A1 and A2 carry handle.
IMO a red dot and white light is still KISS [just not archaic]. Fixed irons and a co-witnessed optic with run time measure in years is the ticket.
MontanaMarine
10-14-19, 13:27
Yes.
My 11.5" KISS rig. Love it. Zero'd at 38yds with 77gr OTM (Magtech), flat to 200, and the elevation drum tracks well to past 500.
https://i.imgur.com/fFDxkn6.jpg
Yes.
My 11.5" KISS rig. Love it. Zero'd at 38yds with 77gr OTM (Magtech), flat to 200, and the elevation drum tracks well to past 500.
https://i.imgur.com/fFDxkn6.jpg
Simplicity does have an elegance about it.
MountainRaven
10-14-19, 13:33
Make a 10.5/11.5" pistol with an SBA3 configured identically to the two guns. Put a PRO on it.
Sell the 6920 if you have to to fund the pistol and strip the doodads needed to make the pistol identical to the SBR - I hear there are people willing to pay top dollar for Colts, right now.
This made me laugh (in a good way, although I’m unsure if your intentions were for it to sting a bit!)
I like getting input from others. I don’t pretend to be an expert. We all think differently. For example I’d never considered a LAW folder on the 6920 as ABNAK mentioned. I’ve thought about it for the LMT, but that doesn’t solve the 5320.20 problem.
It’s not that I mind having something expensive in my trunk, or that I want KISS because it’s cheap. It has everything to do with the peace of mind that comes with a KISS setup. I like that I never need to worry about anything. If I jam some stuff in the back or put a 75lb whatever on the bag the rifle is in I don’t concern myself with it losing zero if it has irons.
I have never had a T1 lose zero in the decade I’ve been using them but it’s the unwarranted worry that I’m trying to avoid. Not any actual negative impacts on the zero itself.
Hope that makes sense.
I meant it with equal parts comedy and “think about this seriously.”
Everyone thinks “KISS” means “poor.” To me, it means, everything is done intentionally, for a purpose. We’ve all seen those guns that people slap together with lots of stuff that makes their inner GI Joe moron self feel hard, but is just for looks. That’s not simple, that’s stupid. Adding stuff that makes the tool more useful isn’t making it overly complicated.
My work gun has a sophisticated optic, free float rail, multiple light emitting devices that melt eyeballs with various wavelengths of energy, and of course a sling. To me it is simple. Everything is exactly where it should be for maximum efficiency and nothing is on the gun that doesn’t have to be. Everything enhances my abilities.
Without the proper forms for travel, the SBR is a non-starter for me.
I would:
chop the 6920 FSB (most robust and simple gas block there is)
Install a Geissele mk16 (anyone who has installed a GI barrel but knows it’s anything but simple. The G nut IS simple.)
Add at 600 series light for MORE power (it’s life saving gear, that rides in the trunk, weight?)
Add an aimpoint. They are bomb proof-ish and faster than irons, especially at night.
Add sling.
Keep spare batteries on or near the gun.
Now you have an efficient, more effective defensive carbine. That’s what I would do. I would also avoid throwing 75lbs stuff on it.
RobertTheTexan
10-14-19, 14:46
I meant it with equal parts comedy and “think about this seriously.”
Everyone thinks “KISS” means “poor.” To me, it means, everything is done intentionally, for a purpose. We’ve all seen those guns that people slap together with lots of stuff that makes their inner GI Joe moron self feel hard, but is just for looks. That’s not simple, that’s stupid. Adding stuff that makes the tool more useful isn’t making it overly complicated.
This should be memorialized, immortalized, and written in whatever is harder than granite but can be shaped into ten commandments looking deal. It was funny and I’m sure will make many people rethink their definition of simple.
Yes.
My 11.5" KISS rig. Love it. Zero'd at 38yds with 77gr OTM (Magtech), flat to 200, and the elevation drum tracks well to past 500.
I agree with others, that is a nice looking rig, and IMO, a nicely composed photo.
Since I interpreted Euro's question as regarding a KISS travel rifle, especially since he mentioned the 5320.23, I'd be concerned that in some states the AR pistol might be problematic. Of course, that would depend on where he is traveling to and the states he crosses through getting there.
Simplest answer for me would be a LAW folder on the 6920, with an etched reticle optic such as the Vortex Spitfire 1X.
That way batteries aren't an issue, the M300 will front light the target putting the reticle into contrast. Of course you can always turn on the optic and illuminate the reticle. He still would have his BUIS in case of, well, a round through the optic.
Seems the simplest route. I have several LAW folders, they work well. I even have an airsoft knockoff which works well on a .22 I built.
JMO.
I meant it with equal parts comedy and “think about this seriously.”
Everyone thinks “KISS” means “poor.” To me, it means, everything is done intentionally, for a purpose. We’ve all seen those guns that people slap together with lots of stuff that makes their inner GI Joe moron self feel hard, but is just for looks. That’s not simple, that’s stupid. Adding stuff that makes the tool more useful isn’t making it overly complicated.
My work gun has a sophisticated optic, free float rail, multiple light emitting devices that melt eyeballs with various wavelengths of energy, and of course a sling. To me it is simple. Everything is exactly where it should be for maximum efficiency and nothing is on the gun that doesn’t have to be. Everything enhances my abilities.
Without the proper forms for travel, the SBR is a non-starter for me.
I would:
chop the 6920 FSB (most robust and simple gas block there is)
Install a Geissele mk16 (anyone who has installed a GI barrel but knows it’s anything but simple. The G nut IS simple.)
Add at 600 series light for MORE power (it’s life saving gear, that rides in the trunk, weight?)
Add an aimpoint. They are bomb proof-ish and faster than irons, especially at night.
Add sling.
Keep spare batteries on or near the gun.
Now you have an efficient, more effective defensive carbine. That’s what I would do. I would also avoid throwing 75lbs stuff on it.
We’ve talked/pmed over the years here and there, so you know I’m not just kissing your ass, but in that post alone it got ME thinking about some stuff on my own Colt that would make it easier.
The slut is getting a new rail this year. It’s either a URX or a Mk16. Looking hard at it since now they are sold separately. Like if you don’t mind, if I didn’t feel like chopping a block. Would a DD Mk. 18 or whatever block do just as well or what?
Or would you know of someone trustworthy who could shave it and take all the sling crap off to clear the rail?
Thanks for your time and any answers.
What about a carry handle with a TA44 1.5x ACOG on it? Light weight, no batteries required and you can use your irons underneath the optic.
noonesshowmonkey
10-14-19, 15:36
For the 6920, throw an ACOG on it and call it a day. Powered. By. The. Freakin. Sun.
An Aimpoint PRO for the shorty. I happen to know a guy who is selling one...
The slut is getting a new rail this year. It’s either a URX or a Mk16. Looking hard at it since now they are sold separately. Like if you don’t mind, if I didn’t feel like chopping a block. Would a DD Mk. 18 or whatever block do just as well or what?
Or would you know of someone trustworthy who could shave it and take all the sling crap off to clear the rail?
I'm sure NongShim will be along shortly but since I've had/have both of the handguards you mentioned... I've had zero problems with any of the ADCO installed low profile gas blocks (double dimpled set screw installation w/Rocksett or High temp Loc-Tite).
The URX 3.1 has very tight internal clearance, I've had good luck with Badger Ordnance SS TDX manifolds but trying to shave down a FSP might be more trouble than it's worth.
The URX 4 is more forgiving of a larger gas block but even if you chop a FSP you'll run into issues trying to insert pins which puts you back into aftermarket set screw gas blocks.
The Mk16 is probably the easiest to install because it lacks the IBN of the URX4 and you can run a larger GB or chopped FSP. Downside is that it's heavier and/or more expensive than either URX.
I'd vote URX4 with a dimpled GB installation.
My preference is for an rds with a buis (folding or not, I would this on both)
That said, i have low confidence with irons in low-light (very little experience), so that rules them out for me for serious use.
I have an irons-only gun because I enjoy it a couple times a year, and it serves as a backup gun.
Obviously your experience may make low-light irons a non issue.
We’ve talked/pmed over the years here and there, so you know I’m not just kissing your ass, but in that post alone it got ME thinking about some stuff on my own Colt that would make it easier.
The slut is getting a new rail this year. It’s either a URX or a Mk16. Looking hard at it since now they are sold separately. Like if you don’t mind, if I didn’t feel like chopping a block. Would a DD Mk. 18 or whatever block do just as well or what?
Or would you know of someone trustworthy who could shave it and take all the sling crap off to clear the rail?
Thanks for your time and any answers.
ADCO or John Thomas of Retro Arms Works can do the chop of a gas block and remove the bayonet lug. I've had work done by both and have no complaints (John Thomas actually answers his phone and his turnaround time is lightning fast).
Ditto on not using ADCO. Had a 14.5 pinned and welded through them. While the work came back in a reasonable time frame it looked like my wife did it and the guy was a prick to communicate with.
John Thomas did an FSB install, and a pin/weld job on a barrel for one of my Retro clones. Once he got my stuff in the mail he had it for about six hours before it was on its way back to me, completed.
My two main KISS Jeep guns at the moment.
RO727 style carbine.
59126
10.3" SBR
59127
Neither gun currently has a light mounted all the time but do have rail sections on the left side where I can stick the light that I keep in my Jeep.
The SBR has a Blitzkrieg luminescent front sight post in it, which I kind of like but also complicates zeroing, since the luminescence is only on one side of the post, so dialing in the elevation is interesting.
John Thomas did an FSB install, and a pin/weld job on a barrel for one of my Retro clones. Once he got my stuff in the mail he had it for about six hours before it was on its way back to me, completed.
I've had a similar experience with John Thomas. He received my barrel at 11:00 a.m. and I received tracking info at 2:30 p.m. the same day. His work is second to none as well. He's legit.
Honestly though, I'd throw a T1/T2 on either of the two rifles and call it a day. Change batteries every new years/birthday/etc.
If you're trying to save space for ease of storage, I think the Aimpoint Micros make more sense than the Pro. Depending on the vehicle, you may be able to find a nice safe that fits under the rear seat so you don't have to worry about length, then run the Colt and keep the LMT at home.
Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
nostalgia
2: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition
Stay away from ADCO.
Nefarious Arms(Marvin Pitts)-contact on Facebook- does great work. Used to be master armorer for KAC. Developed the golf ball dimpling for them.
https://www.dwilsonmfg.com/store/c1/store
Does really good work as well.
Also with CompM4s being as cheap as they are used nowadays I think it’s hard to argue against the performance gains.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I want a mk16 rail just to make people mad
grizzlyblake
10-14-19, 20:18
The KISS easy button is to throw a T2 on the 6920 and deal with the overall length of the rifle.
If you want a low pro gas block and rail the easy button there is to sell the 6920 and buy a factory gun set up that way. BCM or Sionics.
This thread doesn't feel real though because Euro knows his stuff already.
We’ve talked/pmed over the years here and there, so you know I’m not just kissing your ass, but in that post alone it got ME thinking about some stuff on my own Colt that would make it easier.
The slut is getting a new rail this year. It’s either a URX or a Mk16. Looking hard at it since now they are sold separately. Like if you don’t mind, if I didn’t feel like chopping a block. Would a DD Mk. 18 or whatever block do just as well or what?
Or would you know of someone trustworthy who could shave it and take all the sling crap off to clear the rail?
Thanks for your time and any answers.
Send me your barreled upper and I’ll take care of your FSB. I’ve always done my own. Takes about an hour between the grinder, dremel, and high temp muffler paint.
We’ve talked/pmed over the years here and there, so you know I’m not just kissing your ass, but in that post alone it got ME thinking about some stuff on my own Colt that would make it easier.
The slut is getting a new rail this year. It’s either a URX or a Mk16. Looking hard at it since now they are sold separately. Like if you don’t mind, if I didn’t feel like chopping a block. Would a DD Mk. 18 or whatever block do just as well or what?
Or would you know of someone trustworthy who could shave it and take all the sling crap off to clear the rail?
Thanks for your time and any answers.
I personally prefer to have a pin in my gas block. I’ve used them with just set screws, but it gives me the creeps. I realize that it may be irrational.
Every URX I’ve had, regardless of version, was installed by KAC. I trust them to do an unpinned GB. I think the ease of installing a pinned GB has been discussed well enough. I’ve done plenty of Geissele installs and they are super simple. I’m sorry that I can’t speak to shops, as I haven’t used any. JoshNC is a wizard at making FSB look like it was designed to be a low pro pinned GB.
davidjinks
10-14-19, 22:09
I have 1 6920 and 1 6933 set up identical to each other. KAC RAS, SF Scout, SOPMOD, VCAS sling, carry handle.
My 2nd 6920 just got the same set up sans the carry handle. I opted to go with the ACOG 3.5x35 LED red chevron.
For travel purposes and trying to keep is simple, carry handle and no worries.
Edited to add: The ACOG uses a single AA battery. Lithium gives it a years worth of juice at 4 setting.
I have an LMT 10.5” SBR and a Colt 6920 outfitted identically. Surefire M300. VCAS sling. No optics. Both have a Troy BUIS.
I usually carry the LMT with me when I go on road trips. The 6920 is just a rifle that sits in the safe since it was so cheap but I’d like to find a purpose for it. The downside to the 6920 is I’d have to keep it disassembled because it’s loo long for my bag. The downside to the LMT is if I ever have to use it not having a 5320.20 might be an issue.
I’m debating on whether I should throw carry handles on both rifles and be done with it, or get an Aimpoint PRO or used M2/ML3 etc on one or both. I like the idea of not requiring batteries to shoot. If I did get an optic it would go on whichever rifle I used for travel.
Just trying to keep things simple. I put?
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-14-19, 22:18
................................
RobertTheTexan
10-14-19, 22:25
Stay away from ADCO.
Nefarious Arms(Marvin Pitts)-contact on Facebook- does great work. Used to be master armorer for KAC. Developed the golf ball dimpling for them.
I second this sentiment. I sent a heavy profile 308 barrel to Marvin for the ball dimple and he did an amazing job. Just wanted to reduce a little weight without affecting rigidity and he did just that. More than the machining he also gives great advice and recommendations based on what your goals are. I am sending my Rainier Arms Mod 2 barrel to them soon, probably for him to flute for me. On contact, I email Beth, she knows the pricing and if there are more technical questions she’s alway had Marvin call me. He is the only guy I will go to for barrel work. I’m sure others are also skilled, but his prices are fair and he turns them around in a timely manner. He’s a Jedi Master of barrels.
If anyone wants his Services/ Pricing sheet let me know and I can email it to you.
nefariousarms@live.com
Beth has her own email she responds with but she answers emails to that address, it’s been same day for me usually.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191015/413c4c1bd0d703f6cadfe96652a67341.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191015/19a1eb4fd77072cd75d4ab8b419d4ff4.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I want a mk16 rail just to make people mad
I don't know why anyone would be mad. Just be aware that the 13.5 version is about 14.77oz.
I don't know why anyone would be mad. Just be aware that the 13.5 version is about 14.77oz.
Unless Yao Ming is a member here, I am literally the biggest, lankiest M4Cer here. It won’t kill me.
I just like the aesthetics. I’m not going to be jumping out of planes or hammering nails with it.
A URX 4 is certainly in my future. Probably for my SR25. Def for my 300 blk build.
I like my 3.1 but see where it is kinda lacking.
For reference I make my ECC look like a Colt Commando.
I can literally pocket carry an MP5K.
And if I go to Japan them two tiny Japanese girls summon Mothra just in case.
I personally prefer to have a pin in my gas block. I’ve used them with just set screws, but it gives me the creeps. I realize that it may be irrational.
Every URX I’ve had, regardless of version, was installed by KAC. I trust them to do an unpinned GB. I think the ease of installing a pinned GB has been discussed well enough. I’ve done plenty of Geissele installs and they are super simple. I’m sorry that I can’t speak to shops, as I haven’t used any. JoshNC is a wizard at making FSB look like it was designed to be a low pro pinned GB.
Thanks. And Josh is the man on stuff. Will keep in mind or say eff it and get a geissele block.
At the end of the day it’s gonna work
grizzlyblake
10-15-19, 20:42
Well, what's the final decision?
Dr. Bullseye
10-15-19, 22:30
If you want a KISS rifle, just do it. Look into replacing those irons with something from the 21st Centry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sunE2XsJVVA
Ultradyne irons are faster than A2 at close range and you can hit at much longer ranges consistently. I had A2s, Primary Arms prism, and Sig Romeo 3 red dot. All were good in their wheelhouse but the Ultradynes are almost as good at specifics and better all round than any of these. They weigh nothing but are expensive.
Euro starting a thread asking an ARFY question? What gives? Me thinks something is stanky in Denmark.
I usually carry the LMT with me when I go on road trips. The 6920 is just a rifle that sits in the safe since it was so cheap but I’d like to find a purpose for it. The downside to the 6920 is I’d have to keep it disassembled because it’s loo long for my bag. The downside to the LMT is if I ever have to use it not having a 5320.20 might be an issue.
Why not just buy a longer bag?
Eurodriver
10-16-19, 06:23
Why not just buy a longer bag?
Because it’d be kinda weird carrying a 30” bag with me places.
You’re worried about batteries to shoot if you use an Aimpoint, but a DD A1 style sight will co-witness and can be used even if batteries did happen to go down.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Eurodriver
10-16-19, 08:08
I put a carry handle on the Colt 6920 and grabbed an Aimpoint PRO from noonesshowmonkey for the LMT. I’m just gonna keep rocking the LMT since it’s smaller. I feel the Aimpoints are reliable enough to not worry about despite my OCD.
Thanks for all the help.
This thread can be closed now.
My favorite carbine wears the DD A1 style irons only. It's my iron sight gun but the flattop gives me options like a Trijicon ACOG 1.5
I put a carry handle on the Colt 6920 and grabbed an Aimpoint PRO from noonesshowmonkey for the LMT. I’m just gonna keep rocking the LMT since it’s smaller. I feel the Aimpoints are reliable enough to not worry about despite my OCD.
Thanks for all the help.
This thread can be closed now.
A BRT linear comp will go a long way towards taming the muzzle blast of your LMT without the weight or bulk of something like a Flaming Pig.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.