View Full Version : Cartel battle in Mexico
Whiskey_Bravo
10-18-19, 13:44
We are worried about what is happening in the Middle East and this is what it looks like just south of our border. RPGs, mounted 50 cals, and what looks like homemade tanks.
https://popularmilitary.com/drug-cartel-uses-mounted-50cal-rpgs-to-take-out-mexican-army-forcing-them-to-release-el-chapos-son/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/10/18/el-chapo-son-shootout-mexico-cartel-jba-lon-orig.cnn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ql44LUgl2g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBiaW4qfgII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Q6WYNYmUo
Mexico is more of an existential threat to America than the SWA at this time.
Either arm, train, and supervise hard right Contras just DX the whole place and start over.
I'm sure they got those RPG's at the Crossroads Gunshow in Phoenix, you see them all the time, ( SARC ) !!!!!
Who in the whole are they getting these kinda fire power. money is no problem for cartels but who supplies them these and how ? now this is the corrupt that will be trying to unmask.
Who in the whole are they getting these kinda fire power. money is no problem for cartels but who supplies them these and how ? now this is the corrupt that will be trying to unmask.
Red China, Russia, Israel, and of course locally produced. This doesn’t account for American supply under the auspices of arming the “right” people who always end up selling it off.
Chile makes/made respectable SAN clones.
We KNOW Venezuela got a huge shipment of AK-103s from Russia under Hugo Chavez.
ITAR is actually a joke. I can’t buy a handguard or an IUR from Soviet Canada(you heard me) but like these people can but RPGs all day from Red China like it’s cool
titsonritz
10-18-19, 15:55
A couple A-10s would dial shit right in.
Mexico is more of an existential threat to America than the SWA at this time.
America is more of a threat to American than SWA or Mexico at this time. We have met the enemy and he is us.
A couple A-10s would dial shit right in.
I hate to be harsh, but IIRC this is like the 2nd time in as many weeks the Mexican government got their ass handed to them in narco battles. At what point to you recognize that these are full on militaries you're battling within your own borders, and have gunships on station whenever you go on a raid? I mean A-10's would be awesome, but even a couple of little birds with miniguns and rocket pods would seal the deal pretty quickly.
America is more of a threat to American than SWA or Mexico at this time. We have met the enemy and he is us.
Yes. But it’s more fun to blame and shoot other people than blame and shoot ourselves.
Not saying its right, moral, nor even effective. Just more fun.
Ever see Fraggle Rock and the little dude who goes on adventures calls humans “the silly creatures”?
It’s like that
Yes. But it’s more fun to blame and shoot other people than blame and shoot ourselves.
Not saying its right, moral, nor even effective. Just more fun.
Fair enough. ;)
A couple A-10s would dial shit right in.
Naw.
Crucifixions. Crucifixions solve everything.
Dog pooping on lawn? Crucifixions
Daughter knocked up by some Breaking Bad Vanilla Ice looking dude? Crucifixions
Cut off in traffic? Crucifixions
Telemarketers? Crucifixions
Uppity Street urchin with pants below their ass?
Golgotha grade Crucifixions
Why can nobody else SEE THE RIGHT ANSWER BUT ME?
Not nearly as hot down there now as was just a few years ago.
I'm sure they got those RPG's at the Crossroads Gunshow in Phoenix, you see them all the time, ( SARC ) !!!!!
Yep. Loopholes and whatnot. Clearly the solution is to toughen gun laws here!!
I just want a Carl Gustav
Yep. Loopholes and whatnot. Clearly the solution is to toughen gun laws here!!
This is why you cant have an AR15. See what freedom and capitalism creates!?
Hand it over to uncle beto and hell make it all ok.
Naw.
Crucifixions. Crucifixions solve everything.
Dog pooping on lawn? Crucifixions
Daughter knocked up by some Breaking Bad Vanilla Ice looking dude? Crucifixions
Cut off in traffic? Crucifixions
Telemarketers? Crucifixions
Uppity Street urchin with pants below their ass?
Golgotha grade Crucifixions
Why can nobody else SEE THE RIGHT ANSWER BUT ME?
I see.... crucifixions are a real life game changer. Nail up any 10 politicians tomorrow, D.C. would square itself away in short order.
10 criminals, watch crime stats drop inside a month.☠️
Red China, Russia, Israel, and of course locally produced. This doesn’t account for American supply under the auspices of arming the “right” people who always end up selling it off.
Chile makes/made respectable SAN clones.
We KNOW Venezuela got a huge shipment of AK-103s from Russia under Hugo Chavez.
ITAR is actually a joke. I can’t buy a handguard or an IUR from Soviet Canada(you heard me) but like these people can but RPGs all day from Red China like it’s cool
Whoever that's selling arms to the cartel is a huge problem all the security agencies need to do a better Job.
Diamondback
10-18-19, 19:24
I see.... crucifixions are a real life game changer. Nail up any 10 politicians tomorrow, D.C. would square itself away in short order.
10 criminals, watch crime stats drop inside a month.☠️
I'll do one better: At the start of each Congressional session, require each reelected member to draw one lot for each term previously served, and then each chamber stone their loser to death while the public watches. If we're gonna get Biblical, go full-metal Old Testament about it...
Diamondback
10-18-19, 19:27
Red China, Russia, Israel, and of course locally produced. This doesn’t account for American supply under the auspices of arming the “right” people who always end up selling it off.
Chile makes/made respectable SAN clones.
We KNOW Venezuela got a huge shipment of AK-103s from Russia under Hugo Chavez.
ITAR is actually a joke. I can’t buy a handguard or an IUR from Soviet Canada(you heard me) but like these people can but RPGs all day from Red China like it’s cool
Try even a simple RECOIL PAD. The only thing that sucks more festering, ulcerated syphilitic dick than ITAR is the powers-that-be at State Dept ho profit from it and thus seek its expansion. FYVM Dubya for opening the door for 'em...
We are worried about what is happening in the Middle East and this is what it looks like just south of our border. RPGs, mounted 50 cals, and what looks like homemade tanks.
https://popularmilitary.com/drug-cartel-uses-mounted-50cal-rpgs-to-take-out-mexican-army-forcing-them-to-release-el-chapos-son/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/10/18/el-chapo-son-shootout-mexico-cartel-jba-lon-orig.cnn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ql44LUgl2g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBiaW4qfgII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Q6WYNYmUo
Looks to me like they need an AWB.
Diamondback
10-18-19, 20:18
More like a BDZ.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Base_Delta_Zero
Dr. Bullseye
10-18-19, 22:28
The enemy of the USA is not Russia, or China, or Iran, or Syria, it is Mexico. While people were running around in Iraq fighting windmills and spewing crap about 9/11, we were being invaded by Mexico. I spoke out then and said these things. Nuke Mexico and most of our problems will be over.
SilverBullet432
10-19-19, 02:09
I just saw a Facebook video of a guy shooting a Barrett .50 at the cops/military... Shit is really out of hand over there.
Outlander Systems
10-19-19, 09:39
Here's how you do it
1. Build wall. Top priority. Attain as close as possible to 100% prevention rate for smuggling / illegal crossing
2. Unleash the full might of the US military on all cartels. KOS any cartel member. No prisoners. If local government is found to be involved, same thing, KOS. I say KOS because prison doesn't stop these people from operating at all. Stuffing prisons with narcos turns prisons into de facto cartel operations facilities. Mass execute everyone involved with human trafficking and drug trafficking. The people involved are chaotic evil. There's no moral ambiguity in dismembering children and skinning people alive. Every dead narco makes the world a better place.
3. Arm Mexican citizens akin to the 2nd amendment.
4. Control trade flow from South America. Sink the drug subs on sight.
Bottleneck and lock down all South American imports. Everything traveling North from Guatemala inspected by US agents.
Mexico as a nation is not capable of solving these problems. They are a failed state. Our military should focus upon eradicating all cartels by force. If that requires a complete restructure of the Mexican government, so be it. It's too much a security concern to the USA to be left to a bunch of corrupt incompetents. It doesn't matter if that looks like annexation, they are basically already entirely dependent on USA for survival. This is about the security of the USA.
But please, show me your crocodile tears over the ****ing Kurds some more, while we have a failed stated literally touching our border.
I live on the border & keep up with narco blogs...I really don't understand what the mex mil/le were thinking going in to capture Chapo's son with only 30 men & no air / extra support to evacuate. They were in the middle of sinaloa country incredibly outnumbered??
I know the US wants him, but somebody was over confident or just poorly planned?? Obrador himself made the call to let him walk...'love over lead'.
I live on the border & keep up with narco blogs...I really don't understand what the mex mil/le were thinking going in to capture Chapo's son with only 30 men & no air / extra support to evacuate. They were in the middle of sinaloa country incredibly outnumbered??
I know the US wants him, but somebody was over confident or just poorly planned?? Obrador himself made the call to let him walk...'love over lead'. Anyone who thinks it's slowing down is mistaken.
Belmont31R
10-19-19, 18:57
I just saw a Facebook video of a guy shooting a Barrett .50 at the cops/military... Shit is really out of hand over there.
Thats down on the list of truck mounted M2 50 cals, RPGs, and anti-aircraft weapons. The cartels have it all besides modern MBT's and offensive aircraft. Besides that the police and military are either corrupt or can't be trusted. The good one's are sorely outgunned and outnumbered by the bad ones and cartels.
Here's how you do it
1. Build wall. Top priority. Attain as close as possible to 100% prevention rate for smuggling / illegal crossing
2. Unleash the full might of the US military on all cartels. KOS any cartel member. No prisoners. If local government is found to be involved, same thing, KOS. I say KOS because prison doesn't stop these people from operating at all. Stuffing prisons with narcos turns prisons into de facto cartel operations facilities. Mass execute everyone involved with human trafficking and drug trafficking. The people involved are chaotic evil. There's no moral ambiguity in dismembering children and skinning people alive. Every dead narco makes the world a better place.
3. Arm Mexican citizens akin to the 2nd amendment.
4. Control trade flow from South America. Sink the drug subs on sight.
Bottleneck and lock down all South American imports. Everything traveling North from Guatemala inspected by US agents.
Mexico as a nation is not capable of solving these problems. They are a failed state. Our military should focus upon eradicating all cartels by force. If that requires a complete restructure of the Mexican government, so be it. It's too much a security concern to the USA to be left to a bunch of corrupt incompetents. It doesn't matter if that looks like annexation, they are basically already entirely dependent on USA for survival. This is about the security of the USA.
But please, show me your crocodile tears over the ****ing Kurds some more, while we have a failed stated literally touching our border.
I don't disagree with your sentiments in general, but the last thing I want is Mexico to be our ward. God knows we have more than enough welfare cases within our own borders without "adopting" almost 130 million more. No thanks. I would "adopt" Canada WAY before I'd even contemplate "adopting" Mexico; different language, different culture, corrupt to the core in traditional Latin American style. No friggin' way. Their beaches and resort areas are their ONLY redeeming qualities.
MountainRaven
10-19-19, 21:24
A- How do you ID cartel members on sight? Does it work anything like ID'ing a member of al-Qaeda or ISIS or Democratic party on sight?
2- Mexico is already our ward. Has been since the US decided that Pancho Villa wasn't real cool.
A- How do you ID cartel members on sight? Does it work anything like ID'ing a member of al-Qaeda or ISIS or Democratic party on sight?
2- Mexico is already our ward. Has been since the US decided that Pancho Villa wasn't real cool.
Not sure where you're going with that but PV conducted cross-border raids into the U.S., killing American citizens. To me that makes him not "real cool". If you were serious about that, and not just making a snarky anti-U.S. (circa 1916) comment, then I apologize.
The fact that we may be floating Mexico to whatever degree doesn't mean we need to continue to do so nor does it mean we are obligated to continue doing so in the future. The last thing we need to do is somehow "annex" them!
A- How do you ID cartel members on sight? Does it work anything like ID'ing a member of al-Qaeda or ISIS or Democratic party on sight?
2- Mexico is already our ward. Has been since the US decided that Pancho Villa wasn't real cool.
It looked fairly obvious in the video. M2 mounted technical shooting at the police? Obviously you can’t identify every cartel member on sight. But cut me a break, do not our police and FBI, DEA, etc not already know the identity of many cartel members? Are you saying we are working from scratch and we have no clue who in the US belongs to MS13, Sinaloa, etc?
What I am suggesting is that once we declare a group like MS13 as a organized criminal terrorist organization then we go hunting the known members. Not to arrest but to kill. Some of them even advertise their affiliation I’m told.
And yes I think we do know some of the members of AQ and ISIS, no? Maybe even use spies, drones, electronic surveillance. You know terrorist hunting type stuff. Or is that all new to us?
You seem to like to play the contrarian, but sometimes it gets petty, grasping for something to criticize. Most here are trying to mull around better ideas. The war on drugs is a hugely expensive abysmal failure. And cartels are many times more powerful today than when the WoD started 40 years or so ago. Your ratio of criticism to ideas offered is high side.
Diamondback
10-20-19, 02:36
It looked fairly obvious in the video. M2 mounted technical shooting at the police? Obviously you can’t identify every cartel member on sight. But cut me a break, do not our police and FBI, DEA, etc not already know the identity of many cartel members? Are you saying we are working from scratch and we have no clue who in the US belongs to MS13, Sinaloa, etc?
What I am suggesting is that once we declare a group like MS13 as a organized criminal terrorist organization then we go hunting the known members. Not to arrest but to kill. Some of them even advertise their affiliation I’m told.
And yes I think we do know some of the members of AQ and ISIS, no? Maybe even use spies, drones, electronic surveillance. You know terrorist hunting type stuff. Or is that all new to us?
THIS. We start responding to Salvatruchas tats like Wyatt Earp to red sashes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDpQmCGjEPc
It looked fairly obvious in the video. M2 mounted technical shooting at the police? Obviously you can’t identify every cartel member on sight. But cut me a break, do not our police and FBI, DEA, etc not already know the identity of many cartel members? Are you saying we are working from scratch and we have no clue who in the US belongs to MS13, Sinaloa, etc?
What I am suggesting is that once we declare a group like MS13 as a organized criminal terrorist organization then we go hunting the known members. Not to arrest but to kill. Some of them even advertise their affiliation I’m told.
And yes I think we do know some of the members of AQ and ISIS, no? Maybe even use spies, drones, electronic surveillance. You know terrorist hunting type stuff. Or is that all new to us?
You seem to like to play the contrarian, but sometimes it gets petty, grasping for something to criticize. Most here are trying to mull around better ideas. The war on drugs is a hugely expensive abysmal failure. And cartels are many times more powerful today than when the WoD started 40 years or so ago. Your ratio of criticism to ideas offered is high side.
Yes, the bad guys make themselves rather obvious in the video. Yes, I’m certain that we know the names and locations of a few cartel guys, thats assuming they wouldn’t go underground if open season was declared.
But its not always so easy. Do you have any experience hunting “terrorists”, aka Whack-a-Mole?
These are just Julios with guns. Not that dangerous in the cosmic sense. Killing them and blowing them up would feel good. Really good.
But it wouldn’t change anything.
The money. There’s where you castrate them.
The money. But if we did that then too many of our elected and appointed bureaucrats would suffer financially and we simply cannot have that
These are just Julios with guns. Not that dangerous in the cosmic sense. Killing them and blowing them up would feel good. Really good.
But it wouldn’t change anything.
The money. There’s where you castrate them.
The money. But if we did that then too many of our elected and appointed bureaucrats would suffer financially and we simply cannot have that
Addressing the supply/demand side is the only way that will ever happen, and economics 101 finds where there's demand, there's supply, laws irrelevant. As you allude to, the failed war on drugs keeps too many in the $ on all sides to ever really be altered in any meaningful way.
For all interested,
If you’ve ever done any real Drug Enforcement they sit you down and you watch Traffic before you get to play with black kit, UMPs, and killhouses(oh I’m sorry—SHOOThouses).
It’s about 3 hours long and yes it’s Hollywood but also explains why this is pointless at the National level and get you in the mindset that you are merely pretending to accomplish anything.
There are always going to be hungry, barefoot kids willing to die or go to jail over plant extract. It’s all horridly morally ambiguous. And it will lead to a lot of self loathing.
Sicario was a comic book but it was fun because I like Ben del Toro and the part with the Solid Snake pistol.
But Traffic is like Bible prophetic
The_War_Wagon
10-20-19, 11:25
Yes. But it’s more fun to blame and shoot other people than blame and shoot ourselves.
When the bounty on Anqueefa is upped to $50/ear, that'll change. :cool:
When the bounty on Anqueefa is upped to $50/ear, that'll change. :cool:
Are you implying ear necklaces?
Please be implying ear necklaces
Are you implying ear necklaces?
Please be implying ear necklaces
What's it gonna be? Crucifixions or ear necklaces? You cannot have both.
What's it gonna be? Crucifixions or ear necklaces? You cannot have both.
Yes I can
Yes I can
That makes you a glutton. One of the Seven Sins. Might even have a little wrath thrown in for good measure. SMH......we had faith in you!
Seriously though, American ROE if/when we actively engage the cartels would need to change from our current posture in The Sandbox. It is closer to home for starters, possibly in our own back yard. People like to mention Hezbollah sleepers and what they'd do if we ever fought Iran. I imagine that would pale compared to what we'd see if we began actively hunting down the cartels in Mexico. I firmly believe that the only reason they don't pull the shit here that they do there is because of what we MIGHT do in response (especially with someone like Orange Man in the White House). But if we began hitting them on their own home turf they wouldn't have much of a reason to not get stupid here.
MountainRaven
10-20-19, 15:49
Not sure where you're going with that but PV conducted cross-border raids into the U.S., killing American citizens. To me that makes him not "real cool". If you were serious about that, and not just making a snarky anti-U.S. (circa 1916) comment, then I apologize.
The fact that we may be floating Mexico to whatever degree doesn't mean we need to continue to do so nor does it mean we are obligated to continue doing so in the future. The last thing we need to do is somehow "annex" them!
IIRC, the US was for Pancho Villa before the US was against him.
Pancho Villa was seen as a rebel fighting a tyrant in the US and then US foreign policy changed regarding Mexico - and it wasn't enough to really support the Mexican government, but it was enough to cut off aid to Villa. So then Villa launched his cross-border raids and Pershing led his punitive expedition and when that turned out to be a dry hole and US involvement in WWI was looking more and more likely, Pershing's forces were withdrawn and the US began supporting the Mexican government more directly.
And that continues to this day, to the point where Mexican troops (and police) are running around with American-made and American-bought weapons, courtesy of you and I, the American tax-payer. And it's not like the Mexican government loves the US, I suspect they hate us - government and people - but they're smart enough not to say no to free guns, free trucks, free tanks and helicopters, free uniforms and LBE, and smile through gritted teeth when they accept it. And part of why I think they hate us is because they know they are wards of the American government (whether or not they or the US government ever acknowledges it, whether or not the average American is even vaguely aware of it) and they despise the fact that their government is so reliant on us to remain relatively stable and in power.
I don't think Mexico is dangerous to us because the Mexican government has imperial ambitions on the North American continent, or even particularly wants to regain the Alsace-Lorraine of the West, or because the Mexican people hate el Norte (for a variety of reasons, ranging from the Mexican-American War, to the US government's support of their corrupt government, to the American people's support for the cartels). I think they're dangerous because they're our junkyard dog, that we've beaten one too many times - we keep them fed and they keep most of the vermin at bay, but one of these days we'll turn our back on them at the wrong time and they'll be on us, tearing out our throats. Annexing Mexico may be the only way to keep that from happening.
It looked fairly obvious in the video. M2 mounted technical shooting at the police?
Are you saying that the police do not shoot to kill when they're being fired on by someone with a machine gun?
Obviously you can’t identify every cartel member on sight. But cut me a break, do not our police and FBI, DEA, etc not already know the identity of many cartel members?
Obviously you cannot. More obviously, the government is unlikely to be aware of even a simple majority of who is or is not a member of the cartels. "Suspected," members, sure. Are you willing to let a suspected affiliation be sufficient to shoot someone on sight?
Are you saying we are working from scratch and we have no clue who in the US belongs to MS13, Sinaloa, etc?
What I am suggesting is that once we declare a group like MS13 as a organized criminal terrorist organization then we go hunting the known members. Not to arrest but to kill. Some of them even advertise their affiliation I’m told.
And once you've killed everyone with a cartel facial tattoo, do you think the cartels will be defeated? Or do you think they'll adapt and look like otherwise respectable citizens who you won't be able to ID as cartel until you're close enough for them to slit your throat?
And yes I think we do know some of the members of AQ and ISIS, no? Maybe even use spies, drones, electronic surveillance. You know terrorist hunting type stuff. Or is that all new to us?
You mean the terrorist hunting stuff that has worked so well that we've been fighting terrorism for nearly two decades and still see no end in sight? The terrorist hunting stuff that you expect the American public to be able to successfully resist by arms long enough to affect a favorable change in government?
Yeah, I'm sure that will work real well on narco-terrorists. Who, you know, we've been fighting since at least the 1970s or 1980s.
just a scout
10-20-19, 16:00
Cold War ROE on the German Border:
Self Defense - To protect any US/NATO personnel or civilians
Hostile Act - In response to hostile acts by Warsaw Pact personnel or vehicles, such as tracking weapons, aiming or firing weapons at US/NATO personnel and civilians
On Order of the Regimental Commander
Prevent Illegal Capture - Stop Warsaw Pact personnel from taking US/NATO personnel and civilians into custody
S H O P
Pretty simple and effective. And should be used on our borders by our personnel. There are still enough of us old guys around that have the knowledge and experience to lock down the border with 4 or 5 regiments and leave CBP at the crossings.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
IIRC, the US was for Pancho Villa before the US was against him.
Pancho Villa was seen as a rebel fighting a tyrant in the US and then US foreign policy changed regarding Mexico - and it wasn't enough to really support the Mexican government, but it was enough to cut off aid to Villa. So then Villa launched his cross-border raids and Pershing led his punitive expedition and when that turned out to be a dry hole and US involvement in WWI was looking more and more likely, Pershing's forces were withdrawn and the US began supporting the Mexican government more directly.
And that continues to this day, to the point where Mexican troops (and police) are running around with American-made and American-bought weapons, courtesy of you and I, the American tax-payer. And it's not like the Mexican government loves the US, I suspect they hate us - government and people - but they're smart enough not to say no to free guns, free trucks, free tanks and helicopters, free uniforms and LBE, and smile through gritted teeth when they accept it. And part of why I think they hate us is because they know they are wards of the American government (whether or not they or the US government ever acknowledges it, whether or not the average American is even vaguely aware of it) and they despise the fact that their government is so reliant on us to remain relatively stable and in power.
I don't think Mexico is dangerous to us because the Mexican government has imperial ambitions on the North American continent, or even particularly wants to regain the Alsace-Lorraine of the West, or because the Mexican people hate el Norte (for a variety of reasons, ranging from the Mexican-American War, to the US government's support of their corrupt government, to the American people's support for the cartels). I think they're dangerous because they're our junkyard dog, that we've beaten one too many times - we keep them fed and they keep most of the vermin at bay, but one of these days we'll turn our back on them at the wrong time and they'll be on us, tearing out our throats. Annexing Mexico may be the only way to keep that from happening.
Are you saying that the police do not shoot to kill when they're being fired on by someone with a machine gun?
Obviously you cannot. More obviously, the government is unlikely to be aware of even a simple majority of who is or is not a member of the cartels. "Suspected," members, sure. Are you willing to let a suspected affiliation be sufficient to shoot someone on sight?
And once you've killed everyone with a cartel facial tattoo, do you think the cartels will be defeated? Or do you think they'll adapt and look like otherwise respectable citizens who you won't be able to ID as cartel until you're close enough for them to slit your throat?
You mean the terrorist hunting stuff that has worked so well that we've been fighting terrorism for nearly two decades and still see no end in sight? The terrorist hunting stuff that you expect the American public to be able to successfully resist by arms long enough to affect a favorable change in government?
Yeah, I'm sure that will work real well on narco-terrorists. Who, you know, we've been fighting since at least the 1970s or 1980s.
You put a lot of energy in trying to figure out ways something will not work. But I have not read one idea from you on what will work. Pretty lame.
All I am suggesting is we quit treating cartels and mafia and religious/political terrorists as criminals. In our country. My comments had nothing to do with the Mexican police or us going into Mexico in force, other than to hunt specific cartel members that have been identified. Treat them all as military threats to our country.
MS-13 and Sinaloa affiliated gangs are strewn across our country and we are feebly trying to control them with criminal due process. Not working, no matter how much you snark.
I am awaiting your display of constructive genius. But expect more lazy snarks.
MountainRaven
10-20-19, 18:30
You put a lot of energy in trying to figure out ways something will not work. But I have not read one idea from you on what will work. Pretty lame.
All I am suggesting is we quit treating cartels and mafia and religious/political terrorists as criminals. In our country. My comments had nothing to do with the Mexican police or us going into Mexico in force, other than to hunt specific cartel members that have been identified. Treat them all as military threats to our country.
MS-13 and Sinaloa affiliated gangs are strewn across our country and we are feebly trying to control them with criminal due process. Not working, no matter how much you snark.
I am awaiting your display of constructive genius. But expect more lazy snarks.
>You put a lot of energy in trying to figure out ways something will not work
>I [...] expect more lazy snarks
So you think I'm working hard on this or you think I'm being lazy about it - which is it?
You know, there's an episode of the Netflix anthology series Love, Death, & Robots where scientists invent a self-aware yogurt. The yogurt begins dispensing advice and people start following it and things get better. For everyone. The stock market soars. And then the yogurt says that it can solve all of humanity's problems, but some of the solutions will be uncomfortable, if it's put in absolute control of the world and given the entire state of Ohio (Ohioans will be resettled in the other 50 states). Everyone laughs. The world falls apart. In desperation, the yogurt is put in charge of the world and given the state of Ohio. The uncomfortable changes come, everybody's happiness, prosperity, and freedom soars while crime plummets through the implementation of the yogurt's new systems and programs. Eventually, the yogurt builds a giant rocket and sets off into space, leaving humanity behind with the organization the yogurt introduced to it.
I say that to say this:
My solution for the problem - and I'm guessing that we're talking about the cartels and not just some Mexican cops being out-gunned in a firefight with the cartels, from your Saturday morning cartoon-level solution - is simple: Defund the cartels.
How do we do that? Well we stop buying drugs from them. Obviously banning alcohol and guns has worked so well, so we should do it with drugs, too. Oh wait.
So that's where we start: Decriminalize/legalize the possession and use of all recreational drugs.
That, in and of itself, will not solve the problem, not totally. But it will, in and of itself, relieve some major symptoms of the problem.
Next is that you try to make it, "uncool," but that has mixed results and it messes with that whole freedom of expression thing.
Finally, with all that money we're not spending on the DEA and private prisons and propping up unstable governments combating narco-terrorists and sending to narco-terrorists for the fruits of their labors, we open clinics where anybody can go and get shot up with whatever drug or drugs they want to, under the watchful eyes of medical professionals (including psychologists and psychiatrists) for absolutely free.
The drug cartels are now starved of funding. The addicts can now both dose and receive systemic, institutional help to quit their addictions and stay off of them and they're much less likely to accidentally die (saving their families an awful lot of grief). Not to mention saving on Narcan, slowing the spread of HIV/AIDS and other STDs/STIs through the reuse of dirty needles, getting homeless drug addicts off the streets, and so forth.
Too bad the idea only has to go muzzle-to-muzzle with the private prison lobby, police unions and lobbyists, Evangelicals and the "moral" "majority", every politician who wants to appear to be tough on crime, and probably big pharma.
I have some ideas about how to end international Islamic terrorism, but that wouldn't fly well with the oil lobby and everyone who has tied their egos to it, not to mention that in some cases it means literally throwing the economy and consumer technology backwards over fifty years, so....
***Snip***
Defunding them is definitely a necessary part of the plan, but like the mob in our oh-so-successful Prohibition period they will morph into other debauchery if the drug funds dry up. Defunding is essential but not the total answer. They must be killed or otherwise dissuaded from their criminal activities.
Cartel del Gulfo has been around since prohibition...I hunted White Wing in San Fernando every weekend during season back in the 90's & that town is gone. Good friend lost his whole hunting outfit of 15 years meaning guns, boats, dirt, everything. Plata o Plomo?? We free lanced it with a compass & bird boys & ran into what i'm sure were the cartels all the time scouting. The supply & demand will never change, the cartels did.
What happened is they went rogue when the zeta's challenged their boss's & got into thuggery while moving dope...extortion, kidnapping, etc came on overnight & the whole gig changed...wanna fix it?? I've spent a lot of time in Mexico. You give the Mexican folks the 2nd amendment & a couple years & the thugs will go back to being polite & happy with the occasional territory squabble amongst themselves, but the civilian deaths would drop immediately & dramatically. Just a pipe dream because that solution scares the govt more
than the narcos.
Cartel del Gulfo has been around since prohibition...I hunted White Wing in San Fernando every weekend during season back in the 90's & that town is gone. Good friend lost his whole hunting outfit of 15 years meaning guns, boats, dirt, everything. Plata o Plomo?? We free lanced it with a compass & bird boys & ran into what i'm sure were the cartels all the time scouting. The supply & demand will never change, the cartels did.
What happened is they went rogue when the zeta's challenged their boss's & got into thuggery while moving dope...extortion, kidnapping, etc came on overnight & the whole gig changed...wanna fix it?? I've spent a lot of time in Mexico. You give the Mexican folks the 2nd amendment & a couple years & the thugs will go back to being polite & happy with the occasional territory squabble amongst themselves, but the civilian deaths would drop immediately & dramatically. Just a pipe dream because that solution scares the govt more
than the narcos.
Thanks for the observation. Probably 100% correct. However, that would entail us having some sort of "control" over Mexico and I don't want to come anywhere near being that responsible for them. The Mexican government sure isn't gonna go for it (hell, the U.S. government wouldn't go for it if it wasn't part of our Constitution!) so that would mean an external force applied or a MASSIVE internal one. I don't believe that the Mexican culture has the RKBA inculcated in them like we do; I can't reasonably foresee instilling that in them.
Thanks for the observation. Probably 100% correct. However, that would entail us having some sort of "control" over Mexico and I don't want to come anywhere near being that responsible for them. The Mexican government sure isn't gonna go for it (hell, the U.S. government wouldn't go for it if it wasn't part of our Constitution!) so that would mean an external force applied or a MASSIVE internal one. I don't believe that the Mexican culture has the RKBA inculcated in them like we do; I can't reasonably foresee instilling that in them.
Why do you think would we the US need to be involved to give the Mexican civilian folks the same freedom we have...there is nothing really going on where I live that isn't happening SOTB (other than the brazen violence) I worked in Mexico for 15 years & there are plenty of patriots, but like I said in my last sentence it's all a pipe dream. It's the govt more scared of that idea...all firearm/ammunnition ownership in mexico is controlled by the military for the law abiding civilian.
Belmont31R
10-20-19, 20:09
Thanks for the observation. Probably 100% correct. However, that would entail us having some sort of "control" over Mexico and I don't want to come anywhere near being that responsible for them. The Mexican government sure isn't gonna go for it (hell, the U.S. government wouldn't go for it if it wasn't part of our Constitution!) so that would mean an external force applied or a MASSIVE internal one. I don't believe that the Mexican culture has the RKBA inculcated in them like we do; I can't reasonably foresee instilling that in them.
Theres been several citizen led militia type groups in MX and the MX gov't cracks down on them harder than the cartels. They just elected a socialist who has been fawning over Venezuela lately.
If you have a couple hours or on a long drive give this Mike Drop Podcast a listen. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mike-drop/id1346234726?i=1000451233374
Also check out jaesonjones.com
Why do you think would we the US need to be involved to give the Mexican civilian folks the same freedom we have...there is nothing really going on where I live that isn't happening SOTB (other than the brazen violence) I worked in Mexico for 15 years & there are plenty of patriots, but like I said in my last sentence it's all a pipe dream. It's the govt more scared of that idea...all firearm/ammunnition ownership in mexico is controlled by the military for the law abiding civilian.
If you mean running guns to the citizens, I'm okay with that. I just don't see the maverick "F**k you!" attitude we Americans are known for existing to a significant degree in Mexico. Maybe you know it better than I but I'm just not seeing it. Of course we Americans are an anomaly in the world in general, precisely because of the rights we have (especially the RKBA).
As Belmont31R says in the post following mine: "There's been several citizen led militia type groups in MX and the MX gov't cracks down on them harder than the cartels." The plebes fighting back isn't gonna be accepted down there by the powers-that-be in Mexico City.
The civi led groups are complicated, gets intertwined between the govt / mil & isn't really any set standard depending on location or any similar reference as a whole / resemblance depending on the huge various areas...most of those in turmoil are in the mfg areas where it's ground zero / packaging starts.
I'm talking about the masses...when you see middle class men your age crying across their desk because there are no more parks, dinner, movies after dark because nightlife is owned by the mil & narcos?? Hell, all the best restaurants we went to at least once a week are now allow this side of the river. You give those folks the 2nd & some gun shops & the good guys will take it back in regards to them minding their own business. I know the heart of the mex patriot & he's just hamstrung cuz they cannot fight back being law abiding.
The civi led groups are complicated, gets intertwined between the govt / mil & isn't really any set standard depending on location or any similar reference as a whole / resemblance depending on the huge various areas...most of those in turmoil are in the mfg areas where it's ground zero / packaging starts.
I'm talking about the masses...when you see middle class men your age crying across their desk because there are no more parks, dinner, movies after dark because nightlife is owned by the mil & narcos?? Hell, all the best restaurants we went to at least once a week are now striving this side of the river. You give those folks the 2nd & some gun shops & the good guys will take it back in regards to them minding their own business. I know the heart of the mex patriot & he's just hamstrung cuz they cannot fight back being law abiding.
If you mean running guns to the citizens, I'm okay with that. I just don't see the maverick "F**k you!" attitude we Americans are known for existing to a significant degree in Mexico. Maybe you know it better than I but I'm just not seeing it. Of course we Americans are an anomaly in the world in general, precisely because of the rights we have (especially the RKBA).
As Belmont31R says in the post following mine: "There's been several citizen led militia type groups in MX and the MX gov't cracks down on them harder than the cartels." The plebes fighting back isn't gonna be accepted down there by the powers-that-be in Mexico City.
This is because the government is more corrupt than our own and accepts Beaucoup in bribes from the cartels.
>You put a lot of energy in trying to figure out ways something will not work
>I [...] expect more lazy snarks
So you think I'm working hard on this or you think I'm being lazy about it - which is it?
You know, there's an episode of the Netflix anthology series Love, Death, & Robots where scientists invent a self-aware yogurt. The yogurt begins dispensing advice and people start following it and things get better. For everyone. The stock market soars. And then the yogurt says that it can solve all of humanity's problems, but some of the solutions will be uncomfortable, if it's put in absolute control of the world and given the entire state of Ohio (Ohioans will be resettled in the other 50 states). Everyone laughs. The world falls apart. In desperation, the yogurt is put in charge of the world and given the state of Ohio. The uncomfortable changes come, everybody's happiness, prosperity, and freedom soars while crime plummets through the implementation of the yogurt's new systems and programs. Eventually, the yogurt builds a giant rocket and sets off into space, leaving humanity behind with the organization the yogurt introduced to it.
I say that to say this:
My solution for the problem - and I'm guessing that we're talking about the cartels and not just some Mexican cops being out-gunned in a firefight with the cartels, from your Saturday morning cartoon-level solution - is simple: Defund the cartels.
How do we do that? Well we stop buying drugs from them. Obviously banning alcohol and guns has worked so well, so we should do it with drugs, too. Oh wait.
So that's where we start: Decriminalize/legalize the possession and use of all recreational drugs.
That, in and of itself, will not solve the problem, not totally. But it will, in and of itself, relieve some major symptoms of the problem.
Next is that you try to make it, "uncool," but that has mixed results and it messes with that whole freedom of expression thing.
Finally, with all that money we're not spending on the DEA and private prisons and propping up unstable governments combating narco-terrorists and sending to narco-terrorists for the fruits of their labors, we open clinics where anybody can go and get shot up with whatever drug or drugs they want to, under the watchful eyes of medical professionals (including psychologists and psychiatrists) for absolutely free.
The drug cartels are now starved of funding. The addicts can now both dose and receive systemic, institutional help to quit their addictions and stay off of them and they're much less likely to accidentally die (saving their families an awful lot of grief). Not to mention saving on Narcan, slowing the spread of HIV/AIDS and other STDs/STIs through the reuse of dirty needles, getting homeless drug addicts off the streets, and so forth.
Too bad the idea only has to go muzzle-to-muzzle with the private prison lobby, police unions and lobbyists, Evangelicals and the "moral" "majority", every politician who wants to appear to be tough on crime, and probably big pharma.
I have some ideas about how to end international Islamic terrorism, but that wouldn't fly well with the oil lobby and everyone who has tied their egos to it, not to mention that in some cases it means literally throwing the economy and consumer technology backwards over fifty years, so....
Since you ask, I was saying you have been working hard to criticize and lazy in offering solutions.
Now that you have taken the time to offer an idea, I totally agree with you as far as you go. Defund the cartels by legalizing drugs. Nothing else will ever destabilize them. Totally agree with you.
But I also think we need to militarize the effort to eliminate organized violent crime of every flavor: cartels, mafia, MS-13 et al, criminal biker gangs, the works. If they are multi-state maybe, but especially international organizations should feel the full weight of our intelligence and military capabilities. That is not cartoonish.
Since you ask, I was saying you have been working hard to criticize and lazy in offering solutions.
Now that you have taken the time to offer an idea, I totally agree with you as far as you go. Defund the cartels by legalizing drugs. Nothing else will ever destabilize them. Totally agree with you.
But I also think we need to militarize the effort to eliminate organized violent crime of every flavor: cartels, mafia, MS-13 et al, criminal biker gangs, the works. If they are multi-state maybe, but especially international organizations should feel the full weight of our intelligence and military capabilities. That is not cartoonish.
Defunding it by making it legal is the most offensive and outrageous thing i have ever heard. The number of over-dose related death will be far higher than cancer and AIDS. its a total bad idea. Militarizing it is a great idea, The president will have a more direct play in such cases. Cartels are corrupt and depend on the system to keep themselves safe. flushing them is so easy i wonder why its still an epidemic.
Adrenaline_6
10-21-19, 07:54
Defunding it by making it legal is the most offensive and outrageous thing i have ever heard. The number of over-dose related death will be far higher than cancer and AIDS. its a total bad idea. Militarizing it is a great idea, The president will have a more direct play in such cases. Cartels are corrupt and depend on the system to keep themselves safe. flushing them is so easy i wonder why its still an epidemic.
You mean like alcohol related deaths and drunk driving?
Defunding it by making it legal is the most offensive and outrageous thing i have ever heard. The number of over-dose related death will be far higher than cancer and AIDS. its a total bad idea. Militarizing it is a great idea, The president will have a more direct play in such cases. Cartels are corrupt and depend on the system to keep themselves safe. flushing them is so easy i wonder why its still an epidemic.
Legalization seems to have actually worked in Portugal, though it's difficult to extrapolate if something that works in a fairly small homogeneous European country will be equally effective in the US.
Legalization seems to have actually worked in Portugal, though it's difficult to extrapolate if something that works in a fairly small homogeneous European country will be equally effective in the US.
Only one way to find out. The fact remains, the "war on drugs" was lost a long time ago by any metric, and the most optimistic figures show the vast majority of drugs make it to the US just fine, and of courses there's what's produced in the US, etc. Now what? I can't speak for everyone, but seems those posting here in the know who have worked in some capacity to fight that fight are being clear just how futile it is. Do we want to become a police state "for our own good" to make any real impact on the drugs, cuz that's where we have been headed. The illegal drug trade also funds terrorism as the cartels and various terrorist orgs work together.
It would only work if their was a comprehensive federal plan to it, or it will be fractured approach as it is with marijuana, and that will go badly. I doubt that will ever happen as there's just too much vested on all sides to ever make such a major change before it's too late (Liberties gone, costs tank economy, etc) but people are starting to question the ols model.
LEAP is an org of LE and others who think it's time to take a different approach:
https://lawenforcementactionpartnership.org/
Naw.
Crucifixions. Crucifixions solve everything.
Dog pooping on lawn? Crucifixions
Daughter knocked up by some Breaking Bad Vanilla Ice looking dude? Crucifixions
Cut off in traffic? Crucifixions
Telemarketers? Crucifixions
Uppity Street urchin with pants below their ass?
Golgotha grade Crucifixions
Why can nobody else SEE THE RIGHT ANSWER BUT ME?
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The number of over-dose related death will be far higher than cancer and AIDS.
and...
I guess I dont see the problem...
Natural selection and all that...
Defunding it by making it legal is the most offensive and outrageous thing i have ever heard. The number of over-dose related death will be far higher than cancer and AIDS. its a total bad idea. Militarizing it is a great idea, The president will have a more direct play in such cases. Cartels are corrupt and depend on the system to keep themselves safe. flushing them is so easy i wonder why its still an epidemic.
Are you obtuse?
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MountainRaven
10-21-19, 13:09
Someone doesn't seem to realize that we've tried a military solution to the problem for about half a century.
Well, Well, maybe we just didn't try hard enough !!! ( sarc)
That is the argument they use about socialism, correct?
Are you obtuse?
Nah, just brain washed an ill informed about reality.
MountainRaven
10-21-19, 13:55
Well, Well, maybe we just didn't try hard enough !!! ( sarc)
That is the argument they use about socialism, correct?
If gun control doesn't work, you obviously need more gun control.
A couple of things - I agree (for the most part) with everything MountainRaven posted.
My only concern is the impact that legalization, which would initially, lead to more folks experimenting with drugs, would impact these stats:
How Illicit Drug Use Affects Business and the Economy
Economic Costs
The economic cost of drug abuse in the United States was estimated at $193 billion in 2007,1 the last available estimate. This value includes:
$120 billion in lost productivity, mainly due to labor participation costs, participation in drug abuse treatment, incarceration, and premature death;
$11 billion in healthcare costs – for drug treatment and drug‐related medical consequences; and
$61 billion in criminal justice costs, primarily due to criminal investigation, prosecution and incarceration, and victim costs.
Labor Force
In 2009, the majority (67%) of current drug users aged 18 or older were employed, either full‐time (48%) or part‐time (19%), with the unemployed accounting for 13% and the remaining 21% not in the labor force.
Among full‐time workers aged 18 or older, nearly one in 12 (8%) reported past‐month (current) use of an illicit drug in 2009.3 Unemployed workers were twice as likely – one in six (17%) – to report current drug use in 2009.
Turnover and Absenteeism
From 2002 to 2004, full‐time workers aged 18‐64 who reported current illicit drug use were more than twice as likely as those reporting no current illicit drug use to report they had worked for three or more employers in the past year (12.3% versus 5.1%).
In the same period, full‐time workers who were current drug users were more likely to report missing two or more workdays in the past month due to illness or injury, when compared with workers who were not current users (16.4% vs. 11.0%).
Full‐time workers who were current drug users also were about twice as likely as non‐users to skip one or more days of work in the past month (16.3% vs. 8.2%).
School Performance
Students who are not current marijuana users are more than twice as likely to report an average grade of “A” than those who are current users of marijuana (30.5% vs. 12.5%).
College students who use prescription stimulant medications for non‐medical purposes typically have lower grade point averages and are more likely to be heavy drinkers and users of other illicit drugs. They also are more likely to meet diagnostic criteria for dependence on alcohol and marijuana, skip class more frequently, and spend less time studying.
A couple of things - I agree (for the most part) with everything MountainRaven posted.
My only concern is the impact that legalization, which would initially, lead to more folks experimenting with drugs, would impact these stats:
How Illicit Drug Use Affects Business and the Economy
Economic Costs
The economic cost of drug abuse in the United States was estimated at $193 billion in 2007,1 the last available estimate. This value includes:
$120 billion in lost productivity, mainly due to labor participation costs, participation in drug abuse treatment, incarceration, and premature death;
$11 billion in healthcare costs – for drug treatment and drug‐related medical consequences; and
$61 billion in criminal justice costs, primarily due to criminal investigation, prosecution and incarceration, and victim costs.
Labor Force
In 2009, the majority (67%) of current drug users aged 18 or older were employed, either full‐time (48%) or part‐time (19%), with the unemployed accounting for 13% and the remaining 21% not in the labor force.
Among full‐time workers aged 18 or older, nearly one in 12 (8%) reported past‐month (current) use of an illicit drug in 2009.3 Unemployed workers were twice as likely – one in six (17%) – to report current drug use in 2009.
Turnover and Absenteeism
From 2002 to 2004, full‐time workers aged 18‐64 who reported current illicit drug use were more than twice as likely as those reporting no current illicit drug use to report they had worked for three or more employers in the past year (12.3% versus 5.1%).
In the same period, full‐time workers who were current drug users were more likely to report missing two or more workdays in the past month due to illness or injury, when compared with workers who were not current users (16.4% vs. 11.0%).
Full‐time workers who were current drug users also were about twice as likely as non‐users to skip one or more days of work in the past month (16.3% vs. 8.2%).
School Performance
Students who are not current marijuana users are more than twice as likely to report an average grade of “A” than those who are current users of marijuana (30.5% vs. 12.5%).
College students who use prescription stimulant medications for non‐medical purposes typically have lower grade point averages and are more likely to be heavy drinkers and users of other illicit drugs. They also are more likely to meet diagnostic criteria for dependence on alcohol and marijuana, skip class more frequently, and spend less time studying.
I’d like to think those concerns would inevitably be self correcting over time [emoji2373]
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I think we have proven beyond any doubt that enforcement positively does NOT stop the flow and easy availability of drugs, nor does it prevent massive demand for the drugs.
My brother worked 30 years with interdiction efforts and what they can intercept is a drop in the bucket, even when it is a ship load. Making drugs illegal does not stop people from using them freely. His own first wife became a multi-drug addict while he was out intercepting them! All the laws we had 30 years ago did not prevent her or millions of others from easily obtaining a variety of drugs.
We have even encroached in civil rights in order to try to improve enforcement success and it has very little difference. No knock entries. Property seizures. We fill up our jails and prisons with drug criminals. Yet millions of people still abuse drugs quite openly with little fear of arrest.
I don’t denigrate the efforts of the soldiers and law enforcement who have worked mightily to try to stop the flow of drugs and put away traffickers. Failure is absolutely not from lack of effort and determination and sacrifice. But after 40 years and the drug problem is worse than ever we must acknowledge enforcement does not work to prohibit widespread drug abuse.
We must stop spending billions of dollars on enforcement against drug trafficking, accept it is part of our society and figure out the best way to manage it. And accept that some portion of the population will choose to be destructive of themselves and others no matter the penalty. But drug enforcement will not prevent a noticeable amount. The “good” thing is we are used to spending billions on this problem. If that funding were redirected we might be able limit its impact to the users and perhaps help the fraction willing to get off it. I have ready answers. But I know the current enforcement is not effective.
My daughter had a friend from high school who got involved with meth. Her dad was a superior court judge. After a few years she decided she wanted to get clean. She made the mistake of telling her roommate she was going to cooperate with the police. Her murder scene was so extreme the police refused to release any details to family or the press except to say it was too violent to describe. If drugs were legal she would still have been a meth head, but when she wanted to quit there would be no vengeful criminal dealer to chop her up. The war on drugs has many unintended victims as well as massive financial cost. And we have virtually nothing to snow for it, regardless of microcosm victories if some arrests and seizures. Just too little to make a difference and at a crushing cost.
Time to try another approach, give it 20 years and reassess.
I’d like to think those concerns would inevitably be self correcting over time [emoji2373]
That is what I'd hope.
A couple of things - I agree (for the most part) with everything MountainRaven posted.
My only concern is the impact that legalization, which would initially, lead to more folks experimenting with drugs, would impact these stats:
While important issues, (1) I can't even fathom what the actual costs of drug interdiction efforts have been over the last decades in both $, lives, etc and (2) I suspect accurately assessing the true costs pro/con are a WAG at best and (3) prohibition does not work, ever, full stop.
So if we legalize drugs the cartels will cease to exist and become good citizens , the violence in Mexico will stop, we will save billions of dollars and drug consumption will massively drop? If this is not all true then how will legalization solve anything? I can agree that the WoD is not working but I cannot see legalization solving anything.
So if we legalize drugs the cartels will cease to exist and become good citizens , the violence in Mexico will stop, we will save billions of dollars and drug consumption will massively drop? If this is not all true then how will legalization solve anything? I can agree that the WoD is not working but I cannot see legalization solving anything.
It solves the problem of the State regulating what substances people are allowed to put into their own bodies.
It solves the problem of the State regulating what substances people are allowed to put into their own bodies.
Yes, because drug abuse is a victimless crime :rolleyes: .
Chronic large scale drunkenness was the driving force that ultimately led to prohibition, I don't see a material difference between that and the drug problem. Maybe the gov't doesn't really have the legitimate authority to prohibited drug consumption, maybe they do....but...what they are doing now doesn't seem to be helping and has, imo, corrupted le. Maybe we need a different solution. More and more Americans seem to be losing a certain hopeful outlook that was a bulwark against self indulgent behavior...maybe we need that hope back.
Diamondback
10-21-19, 19:28
Chronic large scale drunkenness was the driving force that ultimately led to prohibition, I don't see a material difference between that and the drug problem. Maybe the gov't doesn't really have the legitimate authority to prohibited drug consumption, maybe they do....but...what they are doing now doesn't seem to be helping and has, imo, corrupted le. Maybe we need a different solution. More and more Americans seem to be losing a certain hopeful outlook that was a bulwark against self indulgent behavior...maybe we need that hope back.
Douglas MacArthur had a quote that seemed relevant here, though he was talking about the challenges of ending armed conflict.
"The problem basically is theological and involves a spiritual recrudescence and improvement of human character that will synchronize with our almost matchless advances in science, art, literature and all material and cultural developments of the past two thousand years. It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh."--from his speech at the Japanese surrender, 1945
Now I'm not saying everybody needs a Bible or whatever holy book stuffed in their hand by citing this--what I am saying is we've had so many generations raised to believe in nothing above ourselves starting with the overindulged upbringing of the Baby Boomers and steadily getting ever further off-course through Gen X, my own "X-ennial microgeneration," Millennials and now Post-Millennials, and a kind of nihilistic rot has set in at a cultural level.
The argument against any sort of prohibition is that it doesn’t work. The same arguments are made about regulation.
Regulation DOES work. There is just a point of diminishing returns. The BATFE, I would imagine, is still involved in illegal alcohol sales, illegal tobacco sales, illegal explosives sales, and illegal firearms sales. I would hazard a guess that we are not in a worse position regarding most of those things. When was the last SBR used in a bank robbery? I’d imagine they’re out there...but... We can bitch and moan about muh rights, but sometimes it’s worth taking the hit for a better good. Don’t take my words farther than they go there, as I would love theoretically love to do away with the Hughes Amendment. But I doubt any of us would like the result, which is that kids in the ghetto would start getting hit by automatic fire instead of semi auto fire in short order. And I don’t foresee any voters liking that for long.
Perhaps we should legalize some things. But to act like legalization of all drugs would not have deleterious consequences for individuals and families is silly. I’ve got immediate family who has used more drugs than I can name. It isn’t good. Making them legal would not make that any better.
But regardless of legalization, the cartels won’t go away without direct, active military action by the US. Thinking otherwise, in my opinion, is delusional.
I'm surprised that this is even possible in a country with such tight gun laws. Seems like fake news.
But regardless of legalization, the cartels won’t go away without direct, active military action by the US. Thinking otherwise, in my opinion, is delusional.
The Mexican gov't doesn't seem up to the task. I would imagine if these kinds of cartels were operating in this country at the level they operate in Mexico, there would be some serious throw downs a coming.
Outlander Systems
10-21-19, 20:00
Guys, if we decriminalize drugs, it will just make it easier for degenerate druggies to overdose and die, and that might lead people to believe that poor decisions can actually have negative consequences.
Douglas MacArthur had a quote that seemed relevant here, though he was talking about the challenges of ending armed conflict.
"The problem basically is theological and involves a spiritual recrudescence and improvement of human character that will synchronize with our almost matchless advances in science, art, literature and all material and cultural developments of the past two thousand years. It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh."--from his speech at the Japanese surrender, 1945
Now I'm not saying everybody needs a Bible or whatever holy book stuffed in their hand by citing this--what I am saying is we've had so many generations raised to believe in nothing above ourselves starting with the overindulged upbringing of the Baby Boomers and steadily getting ever further off-course through Gen X, my own "X-ennial microgeneration," Millennials and now Post-Millennials, and a kind of nihilistic rot has set in at a cultural level.
The general lived in a trying and possibly less morally ambiguous time, although great evils where turned loose. He seems to be harkening to a different path for people and nations...an older path, a better path.
MountainRaven
10-21-19, 20:40
So if we legalize drugs the cartels will cease to exist and become good citizens , the violence in Mexico will stop, we will save billions of dollars and drug consumption will massively drop? If this is not all true then how will legalization solve anything? I can agree that the WoD is not working but I cannot see legalization solving anything.
There will cease to be a reason for people to purchase drugs that come out of drug cartel pipelines. When that happens, the drug cartels will lose money flow. When they lose money flow, they will no longer be able to afford to do all of the very expensive things that a drug cartels needs to be able to do to remain viable - purchase weapons, bribe officials.
Some of them will doubtless try to go legit and the smarter ones will even be able to make it. The rest will be much easier to clean up with no organization to support them.
Yes, because drug abuse is a victimless crime :rolleyes: .
Tell us where the freedom touched you.
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The argument against any sort of prohibition is that it doesn’t work. The same arguments are made about regulation.
Regulation DOES work. There is just a point of diminishing returns. The BATFE, I would imagine, is still involved in illegal alcohol sales, illegal tobacco sales, illegal explosives sales, and illegal firearms sales. I would hazard a guess that we are not in a worse position regarding most of those things. When was the last SBR used in a bank robbery? I’d imagine they’re out there...but... We can bitch and moan about muh rights, but sometimes it’s worth taking the hit for a better good. Don’t take my words farther than they go there, as I would love theoretically love to do away with the Hughes Amendment. But I doubt any of us would like the result, which is that kids in the ghetto would start getting hit by automatic fire instead of semi auto fire in short order. And I don’t foresee any voters liking that for long.
Perhaps we should legalize some things. But to act like legalization of all drugs would not have deleterious consequences for individuals and families is silly. I’ve got immediate family who has used more drugs than I can name. It isn’t good. Making them legal would not make that any better.
Ok, lol at pretty much all of this.
I feel so much better that Liberty is regulated in such a repugnant manner.
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Outlander Systems
10-22-19, 08:23
Lolbertarianism = Peak Degeneracy.
Tell us where the freedom touched you.
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Family Christmas in Cancun anyone?
Mexico IS A FAILED STATE. The morons that still travel there deserve every bad thing that could happen to them.
So if we legalize drugs the cartels will cease to exist and become good citizens , the violence in Mexico will stop, we will save billions of dollars and drug consumption will massively drop? If this is not all true then how will legalization solve anything? I can agree that the WoD is not working but I cannot see legalization solving anything.
That's what happened to organized crime in this country when Prohibition was over, right? Right?.......No, NOT RIGHT. Bad people are bad people, it's really that simple. They need to be killed or incarcerated and I have no qualms about either.
That's what happened to organized crime in this country when Prohibition was over, right? Right?.......No, NOT RIGHT. Bad people are bad people, it's really that simple. They need to be killed or incarcerated and I have no qualms about either.
And excellent example: they were created by Prohibition and when that ended, they transferred to (wait for it...) other stuff that had no reasons for being illegal, such as gambling, drugs, and prostitution. Created by the gubment, then supported by the gubments additional laws. See how that works?
Two, legalization at the user level and regs controlling it, then allows resources to be focused on those "bad" people, who deserve what they get. Two pronged approach, cut off their $ and focus on the big fish in the game. Decades of the failed war on drugs shows one can't EVER kill or incarcerated there way out of it, period. Maybe if we had a legit police state we could get close, and anyone squaws about Liberty yet wants to throw it in the toilet, really has so pull head from sand and wake the hell up.
It's really not that complicated and there's no lack of proof of concept it works well. For example:
Legal marijuana may be doing at least one thing that a decades-long drug war couldn't: taking a bite out of Mexican drug cartels' profits.
The latest data from the U.S. Border Patrol shows that last year, marijuana seizures along the southwest border tumbled to their lowest level in at least a decade. Agents snagged roughly 1.5 million pounds of marijuana at the border, down from a peak of nearly 4 million pounds in 2009.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/03/legal-marijuana-is-finally-doing-what-the-drug-war-couldnt/
And excellent example: they were created by Prohibition and when that ended, they transferred to (wait for it...) other stuff that had no reasons for being illegal, such as gambling, drugs, and prostitution. Created by the gubment, then supported by the gubments additional laws. See how that works?
Two, legalization at the user level and regs controlling it, then allows resources to be focused on those "bad" people, who deserve what they get. Two pronged approach, cut off their $ and focus on the big fish in the game. Decades of the failed war on drugs shows one can't EVER kill or incarcerated there way out of it, period. Maybe if we had a legit police state we could get close, and anyone squaws about Liberty yet wants to throw it in the toilet, really has so pull head from sand and wake the hell up.
It's really not that complicated and there's no lack of proof of concept it works well. For example:
Legal marijuana may be doing at least one thing that a decades-long drug war couldn't: taking a bite out of Mexican drug cartels' profits.
The latest data from the U.S. Border Patrol shows that last year, marijuana seizures along the southwest border tumbled to their lowest level in at least a decade. Agents snagged roughly 1.5 million pounds of marijuana at the border, down from a peak of nearly 4 million pounds in 2009.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/03/legal-marijuana-is-finally-doing-what-the-drug-war-couldnt/
You forgot human trafficking, extortion, theft, murder for hire etc.....
I guess if we just let all the illegals in that would cut off that source of Cartel revenue too, right? If we're going to do it right, let's just make EVERYTHING legal and be done with it. No need for cops, courts or jails....Imagine how much we could save....
You forgot human trafficking, extortion, theft etc.....
I guess if we just let all the illegals in that would cut off that source of revenue too right? How far does that line of thinking go? Until we have no country?
All of which facilitate incoming cash flows for the organization.
Trafficking in illegals is just one revenue stream.
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All of which facilitate incoming cash flows for the organization.
Trafficking in illegals is just one revenue stream.
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Which goes to my overall point. Bad folks don't go away just because you legalize something- they just find something else to do. Instead of dope, it will be child porn etc..... The only real solution is to incarcerate or kill the bad people.
Now, that percentage of the population is probably pretty small- really "bad" people but they should be dealt with in that manner, harshly and in most cases permanently. Most studies that I have seen show that a relatively small population of offenders is responsible for the bulk of crime. Those people should simply be removed from the population. That's the most straightforward way of dealing with the issue.
Which goes to my overall point. Bad folks don't go away just because you legalize something- they just find something else to do. Instead of dope, it will be child porn etc..... The only real solution is to incarcerate or kill the bad people.
Now, that percentage of the population is probably pretty small- really "bad" people but they should be dealt with in that manner, harshly and in most cases permanently. Most studies that I have seen show that a relatively small population of offenders is responsible for the bulk of crime. Those people should simply be removed from the population. That's the most straightforward way of dealing with the issue.
Here’s the reality. In most AOs the majority of major crimes are in one way or another gang affiliated. Of these gangs most are transnational based even if the bulk of their enterprise is inside the US. Of them a significant percentage of the membership are foreign nationals. Immigration being the hot button issue that is facilitates not enough being done to keep these folks out of the country. Obviously keeping them out is only part of the equation but Trumps the only one who’s actually tried to do anything about.
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You forgot human trafficking, extortion, theft, murder for hire etc.....
I guess if we just let all the illegals in that would cut off that source of Cartel revenue too, right?
No. Where was that suggested? Trying to move the goal posts each time one fails in their point does not help.
If we're going to do it right, let's just make EVERYTHING legal and be done with it. No need for cops, courts or jails....Imagine how much we could save....
Logical fallacy of zero value to the discussion at hand. I gave examples, you et al give feels based on nadda really and ignoring the data and reality.
You forgot human trafficking, extortion, theft, murder for hire etc.....
I guess if we just let all the illegals in that would cut off that source of Cartel revenue too, right? If we're going to do it right, let's just make EVERYTHING legal and be done with it. No need for cops, courts or jails....Imagine how much we could save....
It is that lack of ability to distinguish between types of laws that gets us into these failed black holes like War on Drugs. It is not as childish as saying laws against everything or no laws at all. And why fight strenuously to hold onto laws that are hugely costly and have no discernible benefit? Can you honestly say that our War on Drugs keeps drugs out of anyone’s hands that wants it? Education campaigns cost a pittance yet are likely vastly more effective keeping some kids off drugs than enforcement.
Laws that never work and have huge enforcement costs are: against possession of items and personal choices (alcohol, guns, drugs, gambling, prostitution). But if made legal they can be regulated so that they are of known quality, recourse through courts for fraud, and focus enforcement efforts on things like underage prostitutes, rigged gambling machines, etc.
Appropriate laws that do work with much less cost are against destructive behaviors against other people and property: theft, assault, Abuse, trespass, harming someone with vehicle whether drunk or not, etc.
I used to be staunchly in favor of strong drug laws and enforcement. But decades of watching the costs go up, drugs getting stronger, and the entire situation is much worse in 2019 then it was in 1969 forced me to question if enforcement can ever be effective. Inevitably I had to admit that laws prohibiting THINGS generally do not work if a large segment of the population is adamant in obtaining them. Likewise laws against personal activities. Rather laws are best suited to regulate behavior between people so that the behaviors stay within bounds of respecting safety, property, and commerce.
If drugs were made legal then they could be regulated for safe dosages, research can be done, transactions and quality can be contested in courts.
Yes, cartels will fall back on other criminal behavior. But it would be much less revenue without drugs. They get weakened. The billions spent on drug enforcement could be focused on wiping out human trafficking, for instance.
No. Where was that suggested? Trying to move the goal posts each time one fails in their point does not help.
Logical fallacy of zero value to the discussion at hand. I gave examples, you et al give feels based on nadda really and ignoring the data and reality.
Perhaps I misunderstood. You seemed to indicate that essentially the Mafia etc...Organized crime just dried up and blew away since the end of Prohibition. That's simply not the case. Criminals simply shifted to other means of making a living, it's what they do. The Cartels are a perfect example with human trafficking and facilitating illegal entry into the country.... That's not a problem you can solve with "legalization", not if you want a country. Many Liberaltarians would do exactly that though....
It is that lack of ability to distinguish between types of laws that gets us into these failed black holes like War on Drugs. It is not as childish as saying laws against everything or no laws at all. And why fight strenuously to hold onto laws that are hugely costly and have no discernible benefit? Can you honestly say that our War on Drugs keeps drugs out of anyone’s hands that wants it? Education campaigns cost a pittance yet are likely vastly more effective keeping some kids off drugs than enforcement.
Laws that never work and have huge enforcement costs are: against possession of items and personal choices (alcohol, guns, drugs, gambling, prostitution). But if made legal they can be regulated so that they are of known quality, recourse through courts for fraud, and focus enforcement efforts on things like underage prostitutes, rigged gambling machines, etc.
Appropriate laws that do work with much less cost are against destructive behaviors against other people and property: theft, assault, Abuse, trespass, harming someone with vehicle whether drunk or not, etc.
Best synopsis and counter to the bolded I have read yet. Bravo to you sir. Might as well close the thread with that one!
Perhaps I misunderstood. You seemed to indicate that essentially the Mafia etc...Organized crime just dried up and blew away since the end of Prohibition.
Not even close. Re read what I wrote carefully.
That's simply not the case. Criminals simply shifted to other means of making a living, it's what they do. The Cartels are a perfect example with human trafficking and facilitating illegal entry into the country.... That's not a problem you can solve with "legalization", not if you want a country. Many Liberaltarians would do exactly that though....
NWPilgrim's additional comments above are as concise as it gets on the topic of where effort/resources/$ are worth focusing on and what's a waste of time and efforts. If what he posted does not make the point here, then I suspect nothing will.
A good read:
https://www.johnsoncitypress.com/Column/2017/08/06/Before-opioid-there-was-the-jake-leg-crisis.html
Adrenaline_6
10-22-19, 13:29
You forgot human trafficking, extortion, theft, murder for hire etc.....
I guess if we just let all the illegals in that would cut off that source of Cartel revenue too, right? If we're going to do it right, let's just make EVERYTHING legal and be done with it. No need for cops, courts or jails....Imagine how much we could save....
None of those produce near the revenue that drugs do. Drugs are what keep their cash flow going an allows them to do other things on a grander scale.
Mexico is a NARCO State and should thusly fall under the WOT guidelines.
Shut down the boarder and begin neutralizing those threats. Wait, that War on Drugs thing is BIG business, we cant cut that cash cow outof the budget.
Im not making light of anyone who has spent legit time going after NARCO bad guys, but what is happening south of the boarder is getting to levels of tragic comedies.
The Mexican Gov. has no control over their issues and yet we let a few million of their socially brainwashed citizens into our country and roam like cattle on the prairie
If you have a couple hours or on a long drive give this Mike Drop Podcast a listen. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mike-drop/id1346234726?i=1000451233374
Also check out jaesonjones.com
Good podcast, worth listening to.
Averageman
10-22-19, 19:52
I remember reading an article earlier this year about how much of this violence is bleeding over and in to this side of the border. I believe Tucson Arizona's crime statistics were cited.
As long as they keep trying to deal with it from a law enforcement perspective and not an insurrection or civil war it will get worse. I'm sure the cartels stay just on the line from outright civil war to keep from getting shelled and hit with CAS.
Whiskey_Bravo
10-23-19, 13:16
As long as they keep trying to deal with it from a law enforcement perspective and not an insurrection or civil war it will get worse. I'm sure the cartels stay just on the line from outright civil war to keep from getting shelled and hit with CAS.
Not sure where the line is, but if technicals with 50 cals, laws and belt fed 240s are not past the line I am pretty sure the Mexican government doesn't have a line.
We lost this battle when we went legit. When we talk about organized crime and getting rid of bad guys, they don't respect the kid gloves treatment they get in the US legal system we have today. Actually scaring narcos into staying out of the desert Southwest went out the door once we made psychos like Col Charlie Askins a thing of the past.
South of the border it's plainly obvious that not only do the narcos operate with impunity in the face of local, state and federal law enforcement, they do so in the face of the Mexican military as well. So until Mexico gets serious and starts F-111'ing narco families like we did Gadaffi back in '86, they're pretty much immune from authority as we know it.
If you have a couple hours or on a long drive give this Mike Drop Podcast a listen. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mike-drop/id1346234726?i=1000451233374
Also check out jaesonjones.com
This is a great listen in terms of knowing what’s coming at us.
The gov is looking the other way on the border and immigration and that means big money is flowing into Washington from the narcos.
Nightvisionary
10-23-19, 20:24
Cartel gunmen-kill-13-mexican-state-cops-in-ambush
https://www.breitbart.com/border/2019/10/14/graphic-cartel-gunmen-kill-13-mexican-state-cops-in-ambush/?fbclid=IwAR3JRrNfpEZwfCXLMKfCS-JZ8IMTSjVY92SNhBBPYKLyDeq2oaNkxTGDvTc
MountainRaven
10-23-19, 22:45
Y'all realize that Mexico is the country that used a helicopter gunship in a raid on a cartel jefe, right?
https://youtu.be/IlzigmxiMCo
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/e123-jaeson-jones-mexican-government-release-chapos/id1449221148?i=1000454552250
Y'all realize that Mexico is the country that used a helicopter gunship in a raid on a cartel jefe, right?
https://youtu.be/IlzigmxiMCo
Then why didn't they use them here?
Obrador, that's why.
Y'all realize that Mexico is the country that used a helicopter gunship in a raid on a cartel jefe, right?
https://youtu.be/IlzigmxiMCo
Then why didn't they use them here?
Obrador, that's why.
BoringGuy45
10-24-19, 14:19
One thing I'm wondering about the Mexican cartels: Do they have any endgame beyond just "continue to sell drugs"? Are they trying to overthrow the Mexican government? Or are they just trying kick the government out of certain areas so that they set up small pseudostates where they can traffic unimpeded and exploit and oppress the local population at their leisure?
Whiskey_Bravo
10-24-19, 16:06
One thing I'm wondering about the Mexican cartels: Do they have any endgame beyond just "continue to sell drugs"? Are they trying to overthrow the Mexican government? Or are they just trying kick the government out of certain areas so that they set up small pseudostates where they can traffic unimpeded and exploit and oppress the local population at their leisure?
I am pretty sure it's the latter. Easier to stay under the international radar that way.
We are worried about what is happening in the Middle East and this is what it looks like just south of our border. RPGs, mounted 50 cals, and what looks like homemade tanks.
https://popularmilitary.com/drug-cartel-uses-mounted-50cal-rpgs-to-take-out-mexican-army-forcing-them-to-release-el-chapos-son/
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/10/18/el-chapo-son-shootout-mexico-cartel-jba-lon-orig.cnn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ql44LUgl2g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBiaW4qfgII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-Q6WYNYmUo
Live rounds finding their way on to the sides of tall buildings in downtown El Paso from these gun battles is not uncommon neither.
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