View Full Version : Change my mind: a hybrid comp is the best general purpose muzzle device
I've noticed people pushing flash hiders pretty hard lately, and I can't figure out a good reason why. Hybrid devices such as the BCM comp, WarComp, and to a lesser extent Battle Comp, are superior for a GP rifle, not a flash hider. Here's why: most people don't shoot in the dark, and if they do, its pretty rare. Also, if they do, its even more rare that they're in a contested environment where bad guys would shoot back at them without signature reduction. Any level of recoil reduction will be far more beneficial than flash suppression in the majority of circumstances. Hybrid comps provide some level of recoil reduction without producing an obnoxious fireball and concussion like dedicated brakes. And while they are more blasty to stand next to, they're rarely of significant inconvenience.
Over the years I agreed with you. I ran Battlecomps on several carbines and BCM comps later on, all on 14.5's with pinned devices. I found they worked well and seemed a bit more controllable and not bad a flash suppression. When I was shooting ten thousand rounds a year it seemed worth it to me. Fast forward past deployments , past being a true first responder, I now really do prefer a 16" barrel and an A-2. This year I bought what will be my last two carbines and I just didn't want to spend the money on the muzzle devices. So for me it is simply a change in life in that I don't want to spend the money for the minimal gains anymore. But I still think you're right!
I'm pretty sure this article has made the rounds here but worth a post.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/556-muzzle-device-shootout/
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I won’t be able to change your mind because you make some good points that are true.
However, they tend to be long enough to p/w to a 14.5” or 13.7”, but most users have them on 16” guns. So, they’re a little long compared to an A2, however inconsequential. They also tend to cost as much as 300-400 rounds of blasting ammo. And even a proper brake has a pretty small effect on recoil, for me. I can feel the difference in recoil, but I have to pull out a timer to notice a difference in my cadence. So I do have a brake on my gamer gun.
And, they are usually pretty mediocre at all things, although a few strike a very good balance. For example, the A2 manages flash pretty well for $9. Most that work better at that cost much more, and are longer. It does close to nothing for recoil mitigation, maybe a tiny amount of muzzle rise mitigation compared to bare muzzle. Basically an old-school hybrid device, but rather specialized at certain strengths (including price). Most (all?) hybrid comps do not outperform the A2 for reducing flash. The claims for flash reduction are valid if comparing to a bare muzzle. They pretty much all reduce recoil much better, but not as well as a real brake. Some of them are less blasty than brakes, but not all. Many that are just brakes with tines on the front are just as blasty as a brake if we’re shooting next to each other, especially if one of us is just spotting, not shooting. It can be rather annoying in that case.
I tried a Hammer Comp (not a hybrid device, but a less blasty brake, so just an awkward anecdote; their Flash Comp is this plus tines) on my 16” GP gun for about a month recently. When I was shooting it, I was like “wow, no real difference in blast”. And then, a buddy was shooting it while I was in the spotting scope. It hurt my fricken’ teeth. I twisted it off same day and went back to an A2.
Most of this doesn’t matter for most people and they would be fine in either direction, if they can afford either.
Edit: if flash reduction is important to you, ammo matters, too. You might get less flash from a PA AFAB/EFAB with Gold Dot than an A2 with American Eagle. But flash is not a real problem for most people using a hybrid device.
Walker_Texasranger
10-31-19, 09:10
I agree with you OP. I think the hybrid devices that are more skewed towards flash suppression are the way to go to minimize on the consussion increase over an A2 but to get some added control over an A2.
I previously ran the Battle comp on my goto riffle. I found it very effective. The flash it had was ok, and didn't concern me much. The concussion was certainly there, not as bad as some brakes, but it was certainly there.
I have moved away from them and put them on less used spare parts builds I have. Why?
The concussion. I take a bunch of classes, it sucks to be that guy with the comp. I hate being next to some dick with a comp or brake in a class. I didn't want to be a hypocrite.
I also found out the hard way that in non standard positions close to the ground, in and around barricades and under things like cars or in cars, they suck. Sht goes everywhere. Sand and dirt clouds choke you, block your vision for follow up shots, gets sht all in your optic and face ect. No thank you, not at all worth it. At 150$ the value was surely not there.
I find something like the YHM Phantom to the best all around if you do not mount a suppressor. The closed bottom adds some compensation, The closed tines don't catch things like vines patrolling in the woods, it has great flash suppression and no extra concussion. It also only cost like 30$
A comp is great for a hobby rifle firing from the standing position rapidly at something like steel at 25 yards. Tons of fun. On a real use carbine I don't see pro's out weighing the cons.
I do own a closed tine warcomp, I have not used it enough to decide what I think.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-31-19, 10:26
Hybrid muzzle devices do nothing well and everything mediocre while still increasing noise and blast. Like TSM951 said above, nobody wants to be next to the guy in a class with a brake or comp.
I've also never found them to actually reduce recoil all that much, certainly not enough to justify the downsides. I was glad when I got the BCM mod 1 comp that I opted to not have it pinned and welded when I bought the upper. I sold it at a $30 loss and put a BCM A2X on it and have never looked back.
An A2 birdcage offers more recoil and muzzle flip reduction than you might think. I was curious about it several years ago and took off the A2 and shot several drills with just a thread protector on the muzzle. Large fireball not included, but it was kinda eye opening as to how much the A2 is actually doing. For what it's worth, it was an 11.5" barrel. It would probably be far less noticeable on a 16" gun.
$100 for a muzzle device that will make your class mates hate you while providing benefits that can really only be measured in tenths and hundredths of seconds isn't a good investment to me.
I'll stick with the $12 birdcage. Change my mind.
I'll stick with the $12 birdcage. Change my mind.
Same here. I have the gunfigher from BCM, but if I'm picking out a new device, it's the A2.
I ran comps and have nothing against them except the extra blast, extra fireball, and extra cost. Now I'm back to FH all rifles.
I recently got a Sub 2000 in 9mm. I put an A2 on it. I wonder if a 16 inch 9mm needs any flash hider?
It looks pretty cool. I'd post a photo, but I get a message about exceeding my quota.
For my unsuppressed guns, the
PA AFAB/EFAB are all I use and they work very well for me.
I had one hybrid that I immediately removed after taking my wife to an indoor range. The concussion from the SBR was brutal standing behind her at an angle. Even shooting it.
Contrast this with a standard open Warcomp, which was completely different. I perceive a small benefit with the Warcomp, I think, but if nothing else it will be a convenient mount.
I don't know how people don't feel a difference in recoil reduction. Maybe when I'm home I'll do as much of a side by side comparison as possible, but I know by feel whether I'm shooting a FH vs hybrid comp. If you honestly can't, then yeah I guess its not worth the cost.
The length could be an issue for Surefire, but those are can mounts. Both BCM and BC have short and long variants.
The blast - this may be the biggest reason I see. I've stood next to the BCM comp quite a bit, and have been in class next to a SureFire brake. Yeah its noticeable and if its possible, I'll take an extra step away, but unless you're a complete bitch, I just don't see how its a real issue. I'm not going to blame the guy next to me for wanting every mechanical advantage he can get to make his shooting better and I've never felt like its been an actual detriment to my shooting or learning. Granted, none of these were SBRs.
If you like the A2, you'll like the 6315.
Based on the A2 TDP, we made the 3 and 9 o'clock ports shorter and smaller to force more gas to be expelled through the upward facing ports. 6315's 20% better comp performance is "free", in that it's obtained without compromises such as more flash, noise and concussion.
https://youtu.be/mR00fQugd-A
Granted, none of these were SBRs.
That does make a difference
That does make a difference
I do believe that. And I'm not trying to be a dick, I just legit don't understand how people are so bothered shooting next to 16" guns with hybrid comps.
If you like the A2, you'll like the 6315.
Based on the A2 TDP, we made the 3 and 9 o'clock ports shorter and smaller to force more gas to be expelled through the upward facing ports. 6315's 20% better comp performance is "free", in that it's obtained without compromises such as more flash, noise and concussion.
https://youtu.be/mR00fQugd-A
Only flash hider I have, aside from the KAC 3-prong that’ll get replaced when I feel like paying for a MAMS.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191031/97c2b8ca2ad9f1aac5093e6bbf97e086.jpg
ETA - Tapatalk's photo quality has gone to shit now that they're pushing their VIP upgrade bullshit.
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titsonritz
10-31-19, 13:20
I previously ran the Battle comp on my goto riffle. I found it very effective. The flash it had was ok, and didn't concern me much. The concussion was certainly there, not as bad as some brakes, but it was certainly there.
I have moved away from them and put them on less used spare parts builds I have. Why?
The concussion. I take a bunch of classes, it sucks to be that guy with the comp. I hate being next to some dick with a comp or brake in a class. I didn't want to be a hypocrite.
I also found out the hard way that in non standard positions close to the ground, in and around barricades and under things like cars or in cars, they suck. Sht goes everywhere. Sand and dirt clouds choke you, block your vision for follow up shots, gets sht all in your optic and face ect. No thank you, not at all worth it. At 150$ the value was surely not there.
I find something like the YHM Phantom to the best all around if you do not mount a suppressor. The closed bottom adds some compensation, The closed tines don't catch things like vines patrolling in the woods, it has great flash suppression and no extra concussion. It also only cost like 30$
A comp is great for a hobby rifle firing from the standing position rapidly at something like steel at 25 yards. Tons of fun. On a real use carbine I don't see pro's out weighing the cons.
I do own a closed tine warcomp, I have not used it enough to decide what I think.
^^This right here. I've been to several classes that prohibit comps and brakes for this reason.
For my unsuppressed guns, the
PA AFAB/EFAB are all I use and they work very well for me.
I had an EFAB on one of my carbines and it was great at flash suppression and reducing recoil without increasing blast, I thought I had found the perfect MD for my purpose, but the problem came when I was shooting in tight confined areas and through barricades, it would shed the plywood literally blowing it apart. I switch to a White Sound FOSSA and thus far have been very pleased.
titsonritz
10-31-19, 13:22
Only flash hider I have, aside from the KAC 3-prong that’ll get replaced when I feel like paying for a MAMS.
I'd like to try the MAMS but I bet it would do the same thing as the EFAB.
Junkyard prone sucks with a comp, give you that. But just like night shooting, its pretty rare for most people IME.
@Wake27,
I agree with your general statement that for most people recoil reduction and muzzle stability is more beneficial than a flash reduction (including myself).
If you're comparing A2 you need to contrast it with the full on brake like Surefire two port (or similar) which have an obnoxious concussion and blast signature even during a daytime. As other members pointed out they cost typically around $120-150 which is half of a high quality barrel and approximately the same as a good barrel on sale. Most people are not willing to pay that price in addition to dealing with the blast/concussion.
A2 on the other hand is cheap/free and does not have such negatives. I would imagine a lot of regular folks when picking up a rifle with A2 coming from a brake equipped rifle will be complaining that the rifle wonders under recoil. Proper recoil management technique can definitely help to improve recoil/stability with A2.
Quality (this being a key word here) hybrid devices are great and very, very difficult to come by and evaluate objectively. I have two of the following and will only speak to those.
Something like a closed tine Warcomp is geared towards a flash reduction, compensation is a secondary factor for it. Whenever you're willing to pay for it over A2 is a different matter.
On the other hand KAC MAMS, I feed tuned towards compensation (axial stability) and has an acceptable flash reduction for a comp/brake. Personally, I don't notice any overpressure signature with MAMS vs A2.
Most hybrid devices are a marketing gimmick. They fail miserably at advertised function and are bad at everything: flash reduction, compensation, axial stability, and blast management. Most people might not notice the negatives and it definitely has a placebo effect (especially after paying $100-$150). I've learned my lesson and now avoid any hybrid devices except the two mentioned above.
I feel that it's almost easier to get a separate upper with the muzzle device for a dedicated purpose rather than trying to find a perfect solution for one setup.
Competition gun - use whatever, probably some 3-port brake.
Want a break/comp - go with a two port surefire or KAC MAMS.
Need a flash hider - A2, Surefire, KAC 3-prong or such.
Suppressor use - whatever device a manufacturer recommends. It only serves as mounting adaptor. Better yet use a direct thread method to safe some weight and double interface point.
If you like the A2, you'll like the 6315.
Based on the A2 TDP, we made the 3 and 9 o'clock ports shorter and smaller to force more gas to be expelled through the upward facing ports. 6315's 20% better comp performance is "free", in that it's obtained without compromises such as more flash, noise and concussion.
https://youtu.be/mR00fQugd-A
6315 has been my go-to for non suppressed needs. I still run the Covert Comp from BRT, but I like the 6315 best as a general use muzzle device.
No free lunch.
The EFAB is rated for a 10.5” barreled gun. That says volumes (no pun intended) about its lack of “blastiness”.
I run these on my SD guns and go full concussion monster on competition carbines.
I spent a 3 day carbine operators course next to a 10.5" with a Surefire brake. Ya'll need to quit whining so much it's not that bad :D
6315 has been my go-to for non suppressed needs. I still run the Covert Comp from BRT, but I like the 6315 best as a general use muzzle device.
Do you happen to use the Covert Comp on a short barrel? That’s something that I have considered.
I spent a 3 day carbine operators course next to a 10.5" with a Surefire brake. Ya'll need to quit whining so much it's not that bad :D
:eek: I hardly like SHOOTING my 14" with the SF brake when I don't have the suppressor on it...too blasty.
Do you happen to use the Covert Comp on a short barrel? That’s something that I have considered.
That's what I've been doing with it on a 10.3 300 BLK, and a buddy on his 11.3" 5.56. I have one on my SPRish build as well, and I'm happy with it. I haven't done side by side comparisons with the shorter barrels. When I built the pistol I decided to err on the quieter side and went with the Covert Comp. If I were filthy rich, I might do WarComps on everything because they don't seem blasty on 16" barrels, so they might be half decent on shorter barrels as well. But I'm happy with 6315s and BRT CCs...
I can see some noob or 3gunner going for a comp, to mitigate the low recoil 5.56/AR combo. I'm into 3 gun and use a pretty good straight up comp. But on my SD rifle I use a pretty good FH. I dont see the 5.56 as a something to reduce in recoil in a SD situation. It just doesn't recoil that much to begin with.
Maybe someday engineers will figure out how to give us max flash hiding with max recoil mitigation in the same package.
Do you happen to use the Covert Comp on a short barrel? That’s something that I have considered.
My brother runs one on an 11.5" 5.56. It works great! No extra side blast, minimal flash (better than an A2 birdcage, even with ammo that belched an impressive column of fire from an XM177 clone), deeper tone and sends a lot of the concussion & noise down range.
I can see some noob or 3gunner going for a comp, to mitigate the low recoil 5.56/AR combo. I'm into 3 gun and use a pretty good straight up comp. But on my SD rifle I use a pretty good FH. I dont see the 5.56 as a something to reduce in recoil in a SD situation. It just doesn't recoil that much to begin with.
Maybe someday engineers will figure out how to give us max flash hiding with max recoil mitigation in the same package.
They call it a suppressor. A suppressor with a brake style end cap has low flash, good recoil reduction and little to no concussion.
My brother runs one on an 11.5" 5.56. It works great! No extra side blast, minimal flash (better than an A2 birdcage, even with ammo that belched an impressive column of fire from an XM177 clone), deeper tone and sends a lot of the concussion & noise down range.
They call it a suppressor. A suppressor with a brake style end cap has low flash, good recoil reduction and little to no concussion.
Yeah, you're right there. I was thinking more in terms of a smaller device that everyman had easy access to. Not everyone has that access whether because of money or laws.
Five_Point_Five_Six
10-31-19, 16:41
I don't know how people don't feel a difference in recoil reduction. Maybe when I'm home I'll do as much of a side by side comparison as possible, but I know by feel whether I'm shooting a FH vs hybrid comp. If you honestly can't, then yeah I guess its not worth the cost.
The length could be an issue for Surefire, but those are can mounts. Both BCM and BC have short and long variants.
The blast - this may be the biggest reason I see. I've stood next to the BCM comp quite a bit, and have been in class next to a SureFire brake. Yeah its noticeable and if its possible, I'll take an extra step away, but unless you're a complete bitch, I just don't see how its a real issue. I'm not going to blame the guy next to me for wanting every mechanical advantage he can get to make his shooting better and I've never felt like its been an actual detriment to my shooting or learning. Granted, none of these were SBRs.
That's kinda my thinking on using a muzzle device to control recoil on a 5.56 gun.
ETA: That wasn't a cheap shot at Wake27, just a lame attempt at humor.
Get what works for you , they all have some pro’s and con’s to them.
If you like the A2, you'll like the 6315.
Based on the A2 TDP, we made the 3 and 9 o'clock ports shorter and smaller to force more gas to be expelled through the upward facing ports. 6315's 20% better comp performance is "free", in that it's obtained without compromises such as more flash, noise and concussion.
https://youtu.be/mR00fQugd-A
Yep I'm running a new 6315 and love it.
Walker_Texasranger
10-31-19, 19:07
Larry Vicker’s personal carbine set-up from a little over a year ago. Looks like he chose to use the BCM Gunfighter hybrid muzzle device on it.
https://youtu.be/4XtZp9uwpFk
Yea I mean he’s also sponsored by them so may be incentive there but he probably has the option to use an A2 as well.
turnburglar
10-31-19, 19:54
My favorite device is 3/4 prong flash hiders. I don't think muzzle devices really change the recoil of a rifle that much. Shooter position plays way more of a factor in my shooting. I pulled a typical 2 chamber brake off my 16" 7.62 and replaced it with a warcomp. I really couldn't tell the difference in recoil even though the Warcomp isn't supposed to do as good of a job. I do notice the reduction in blast though.
I personally loathe people that bring a comped AR to a public range.
I can see some noob or 3gunner going for a comp, to mitigate the low recoil 5.56/AR combo. I'm into 3 gun and use a pretty good straight up comp. But on my SD rifle I use a pretty good FH. I dont see the 5.56 as a something to reduce in recoil in a SD situation. It just doesn't recoil that much to begin with.
Maybe someday engineers will figure out how to give us max flash hiding with max recoil mitigation in the same package.
Wait so you use a comp on a gamer gun, but the gun you trust your life to, when you could in theory actually die for not being effective enough as a shooter, you’re fine with just saying that the recoil isn’t that much?
Nobody ever said the recoil was a lot, but if you can do something about it with minimal consequences...
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Wait so you use a comp on a gamer gun, but the gun you trust your life to, when you could in theory actually die for not being effective enough as a shooter, you’re fine with just saying that the recoil isn’t that much?
Nobody ever said the recoil was a lot, but if you can do something about it with minimal consequences...
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I consider 3gun to be a bit different than a SD situation. The comp I use is pretty loud and flashy. I'm also under the clock so I'm trying to squeeze as much speed out of my gun as possible in a non-threatened game situation. I do believe that a SD situation might happen at night inside a house. So for me the fh makes more sense since the difference in speed is not that much. If speed is really the only consideration...do you use a lightened bcg, less powerful action spring, the biggest most effective comp you can buy? I doubt I could really tell the difference between an effective fh and a hybrid comp/fh. If you can that's fine.
My brother runs one on an 11.5" 5.56. It works great! No extra side blast, minimal flash (better than an A2 birdcage, even with ammo that belched an impressive column of fire from an XM177 clone), deeper tone and sends a lot of the concussion & noise down range.
I run a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" 5.56 and get soccer-ball sized flash from it with a variety of ammunition. I was going to swap an A2 FH onto it as an expiriment, so I am glad you posted this. I agree with your comments on blast.
I ran the covert comp on longer barrels and never saw daytime muzzle flash with it.
Andy
Here’s why people use flash hiders over comps, and I’m not opposed to comps:
Worst case scenarios.
Best case scenario, how much faster are you with a comp? How much more accurate? I can’t tell the difference in my scores or time from low ready on up drills, pairs, or bills. While the comp “feels better”, I attain no quantified improvement in performance in a defensive role.
But what about worst case scenarios?
The fireball is not necessarily something I want in a lowlight defensive situation. Granted it’s not the end of the world either.
The added sound signature from a comp is a real thing during a defensive situation. It can be disorienting and downright painful in the instance I’m unable to donn ear protection.
Additionally, the gas diversion can cause debris to become a problem in some situations; gravel, dust, other debris, etc.
I once got my glass blasted at a precision rifle match due to a brakes rifle on the line next to me. Nothing like your $2,000 glass getting sand-blaster by the guy next to you. Do you want to be responsible for damage caused by the comps?
Finally, if I put one on every rifle I train with, I’m out serious money.
That said I own a battle comp on my badly worn 14.5” pinned DD upper from ‘07. I have a WarComp on an SBR, and several BCM comps that were free with purchase.
My home defense rifle is a 14.5” with a pinned three-prong. The rifle I’m grabbing when I need a rifle doesn’t wear a comp. It does, however, wear a suppressor most of the time.
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On anything longer than 14.5 I prefer the hybrid comps, anything shorter needs a suppressor.
Most hybrid comps I’ve used (mams, Bc, bcm, Griffin) aren’t throwing huge fireballs like some are saying. Yes they are more than an A2 but not massively so. Blast is also more but nothing like an open port brake, although the BCM is more blasty than the other mentioned, I’ve also noticed the A2 is more blasty than most dedicated flash hiders, and in junkyard prone it kicks up a good amount of crap just like any device besides a suppressor or flash can.
I also prefer them as a suppressor host as they act as a sacrificial baffle.
On anything longer than 14.5 I prefer the hybrid comps, anything shorter needs a suppressor or flash hider.
Fundamentals are everything obviously, and I’m sure some of the better shooters here could wipe the floor with me using a bare muzzle vs me running a race brake. However I like the quicker follow ups and spotting my impact at longer ranges.
Most hybrid comps I’ve used (mams, Bc, bcm, Griffin) aren’t throwing huge fireballs like some are saying. Yes they are more than an A2 but not massively so. Blast is also more but nothing like an open port brake, although the BCM is more blasty than the other mentioned, I’ve also noticed the A2 is more blasty than most dedicated flash hiders, and in junkyard prone it kicks up a good amount of crap just like any device besides a suppressor or flash can.
I also prefer them as a suppressor host as they act as a sacrificial baffle.
I run a BRT Covert Comp on my 11.3" 5.56 and get soccer-ball sized flash from it with a variety of ammunition...
Oh? The muzzle flash of my brother's Covert Comp was barely noticeable, even as it got dark. He also has an XM177 clone that has a "moderator" that's designed to be a linear comp. With one batch of ammo, the XM177 gave a long, narrow column of flame. Through the Covert Comp, it was barely noticeable. The A2 on a 10.5 or 11.5 barrel throws a good sized fireball.
I would be using the Forward Control 6315 on my SOCOM, but I haven't been able to convince Roger to make one long enough to use to pin & weld a 14.5" barrel to 16".
Anyone who thinks a flash hider on an AR is useless to a civilian, doesn't get out to shoot early enough in the day and packs up and goes home too soon.
I chose the Covert Comp for directing blast away. I've not compared flash with it. I would honestly expect more flash from it than an A2 style hider.
If you like the A2, you'll like the 6315.
Based on the A2 TDP, we made the 3 and 9 o'clock ports shorter and smaller to force more gas to be expelled through the upward facing ports. 6315's 20% better comp performance is "free", in that it's obtained without compromises such as more flash, noise and concussion.
https://youtu.be/mR00fQugd-A
I have a bunch of these and I like them, but I really rather have an A1 version with the slots all the way around... I might be the only one though. ;)
Other than that the Smith Vortex G6A4 is my absolute favorite.
The fireball is not necessarily something I want in a lowlight defensive situation. Granted it’s not the end of the world either.
The added sound signature from a comp is a real thing during a defensive situation. It can be disorienting and downright painful in the instance I’m unable to donn ear protection.
Additionally, the gas diversion can cause debris to become a problem in some situations; gravel, dust, other debris, etc.
Finally, if I put one on every rifle I train with, I’m out serious money.
Anyone who thinks a flash hider on an AR is useless to a civilian, doesn't get out to shoot early enough in the day and packs up and goes home too soon.
Yep.
Most hybrid comps I’ve used (mams, Bc, bcm, Griffin) aren’t throwing huge fireballs like some are saying. Yes they are more than an A2 but not massively so.
Nope.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ar-15-flash-hider-shootout/
A2:
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/FH-A2.jpg
AAC Blackout:
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/FH-AAC.jpg
BCM BC 2:
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/FH-Battlecomp.jpg
MAMS:
https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/FH-KAC-MAMS.jpg
Comps are not my thing, and definitely not brakes. I can not see any real difference with the comps I have tried.
Most of my rifles have 3 prong on the end of them because that is what my can mounts to. And the can does the best job at reducing flash and mitigating the recoil.
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Comps are not my thing, and definitely not brakes. I can not see any real difference with the comps I have tried.
Most of my rifles have 3 prong on the end of them because that is what my can mounts to. And the can does the best job at reducing flash and mitigating the recoil.
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Does muzzle flash really screw with you that much though? Like I said, I have minimal low light time, but most of it has been with BCM comps. I was never blinded by the light, and again, most of us aren't discussing this in the context of fighting the rooskies and trying to mask signature.
Does muzzle flash really screw with you that much though? Like I said, I have minimal low light time, but most of it has been with BCM comps. I was never blinded by the light, and again, most of us aren't discussing this in the context of fighting the rooskies and trying to mask signature.
You could ask the same question about recoil/muzzle movement.
Blast/concussion is more important to me than either flash reduction or conpensation, but that's me and we each have to do our own trade study.
Andy
Two different schools of thought in this thread. How do they affect combat or perhaps self-defense, and how do they affect your ability to score fast (in games) or next to other shooters (either in routine "Administrative" shooting at gun ranges or in close proximity to others waiting for your turn during a game).
Are you shooting commercial ammo or handloads? Are you restricted to military ammo or ammo bought on a state or municipal contract? How many are actually shooting at dusk or in the dark?
Who's shooting close to others while moving (i.e., combat or training for combat, or just near others at your club range)? Who's shooting for A, B, and C-zone hits against time?
What works for somebody doing 3-Gun (out of pocket or sponsored) are not going to be the same considerations for those looking to outfit a 4-man team to a 100-man company or squadron.
If you're using ammo with factory-blended flash suppressant in your powder, know you're going to have more smoke. Do you even need a flash suppressor, or do you default because that's how the barrel was made or sent to you?
Do you shoot with a suppressor?
Do you ever shoot while moving?
Shooting at targets or hogs is different than shooting with binocular or fused NVGs on the move in close spaces with reverberating blast and echo. Running a 3-Gun course in sponsored polyester cycling shirt is going to be way different than training young people to shoot static.
titsonritz
11-01-19, 14:14
Junkyard prone sucks with a comp, give you that. But just like night shooting, its pretty rare for most people IME.
I do both a fair amount and with winter coming up I'll be doing more low light. Throw in some shoot house scenarios and utilizing team tactics, the last thing I want is increased blast and flash.
Diamondback
11-01-19, 18:11
Not to mention that not everybody has the same eyes/ears/etc. A very light sensitive shooter building for Bump In The Night work, such as myself, might consider flash management paramount over everything except terminal ballistics and mechanical reliability so that he can SEE what he's shooting at to assess whether or not a follow-up shot is required and where to place it.
turnburglar
11-01-19, 18:23
I was thinking about comps a little more and came up with this hypothesis: "Most people with a comp, have no business owning one".
Let me explain.
I shot my first competition last month and placed in the 25%. The next guy better than me, was by 9 seconds. The difference between first and 2nd place was 11 seconds. 9th and 10th place was difference of again.... 10 seconds. My competition rifle is a 14.5 LW with a 4 prong P&W. This rifle uses a regular H2 buffer and mil spec BCG. Now would changing to a fully comped 18" with low mass BCG move me significantly higher up the ladder? Probably not. As can be seen; even if changing rifles took 0.05 off my splits, that wouldn't mean anything when the next shooter is 10 seconds faster. I would literally have to shoot 200+ targets to make up the difference in gear. Now, what is my actual plan to get those 10+ seconds? I have to mentally rehearse each stage better. I can't miss targets or worse forget to shoot some. I need to really dial in the nut behind the trigger. In fact after shooting my first match I decided that the targets where large enough to not even warrant the use of expensive match ammo. All future matches will probably be shot with the cheapest M193 I can find.
Most shooter's given a choice will choose a piece of gear if it is supposed to make them better. Even if that piece of gear only makes them 0.0001% higher in the ladder.
I might even go one step further and say: "if my rifle had recoil like a bare muzzle, but made ZERO blast, I could shoot it even faster."
Belmont31R
11-01-19, 18:46
Don't forget flash suppressant in ammo can really effect how much flash you'll see out of any given ammo. The ammo most of us are buying doesn't really have to meet any sort of contract requirements for flash suppression performance during QA or they could be sold to us because that lot failed some sort of contract QA standards that's not safety related.
As for blast out of a muzzle device people should try whatever MD they want to use in different prone or confined space positions to see if the added blast is worth a little bit of less muzzle rise. These things get greatly magnified in a room or from prone. Go watch some videos on YouTube and see how dust getting kicked up sucks. If you live in the PNW that's probably not much of a concern but confined spaces will always be an issue. Most of us fall into the HD/SD category, and then duty like LEO's. That means insides buildings or around other people. You don't want to blast yourself or your family/spouse/partners anymore than you can help, and muzzle rise is a negligible issue at distances you can ever legally articulate in a justified shooting.
Diamondback
11-01-19, 18:50
If you live in the PNW that's probably not much of a concern but confined spaces will always be an issue.
If you live in the PNW, at least the Northern Wet Side, you're lucky to be ABLE to even train with your AR because the ranges are run by Elmer Fudd who shits his pretty pink panties at the mere mention of EBR's...
vicious_cb
11-01-19, 18:52
Two different schools of thought in this thread. How do they affect combat or perhaps self-defense, and how do they affect your ability to score fast (in games) or next to other shooters (either in routine "Administrative" shooting at gun ranges or in close proximity to others waiting for your turn during a game).
Are you shooting commercial ammo or handloads? Are you restricted to military ammo or ammo bought on a state or municipal contract? How many are actually shooting at dusk or in the dark?
Who's shooting close to others while moving (i.e., combat or training for combat, or just near others at your club range)? Who's shooting for A, B, and C-zone hits against time?
What works for somebody doing 3-Gun (out of pocket or sponsored) are not going to be the same considerations for those looking to outfit a 4-man team to a 100-man company or squadron.
If you're using ammo with factory-blended flash suppressant in your powder, know you're going to have more smoke. Do you even need a flash suppressor, or do you default because that's how the barrel was made or sent to you?
Do you shoot with a suppressor?
Do you ever shoot while moving?
Shooting at targets or hogs is different than shooting with binocular or fused NVGs on the move in close spaces with reverberating blast and echo. Running a 3-Gun course in sponsored polyester cycling shirt is going to be way different than training young people to shoot static.
Thats what I dont get about "Whats best?" type threads because the right answer is always "It depends".
I was thinking about comps a little more and came up with this hypothesis: "Most people with a comp, have no business owning one".
Let me explain.
I shot my first competition last month and placed in the 25%. The next guy better than me, was by 9 seconds. The difference between first and 2nd place was 11 seconds. 9th and 10th place was difference of again.... 10 seconds. My competition rifle is a 14.5 LW with a 4 prong P&W. This rifle uses a regular H2 buffer and mil spec BCG. Now would changing to a fully comped 18" with low mass BCG move me significantly higher up the ladder? Probably not. As can be seen; even if changing rifles took 0.05 off my splits, that wouldn't mean anything when the next shooter is 10 seconds faster. I would literally have to shoot 200+ targets to make up the difference in gear. Now, what is my actual plan to get those 10+ seconds? I have to mentally rehearse each stage better. I can't miss targets or worse forget to shoot some. I need to really dial in the nut behind the trigger. In fact after shooting my first match I decided that the targets where large enough to not even warrant the use of expensive match ammo. All future matches will probably be shot with the cheapest M193 I can find.
Most shooter's given a choice will choose a piece of gear if it is supposed to make them better. Even if that piece of gear only makes them 0.0001% higher in the ladder.
I might even go one step further and say: "if my rifle had recoil like a bare muzzle, but made ZERO blast, I could shoot it even faster."
Its definitely true that gear can't overcome talent. Having said that, most guys I know will spend a certain budget to try and optimize their game stick. Some guys have a huge budget, some not so big. Some guys run a much more tactical set up and some will run a totally tricked out gamer. I kept mine sort of toward the middle but shaded toward the gamer side a little. So I have a pretty good comp, a good 3 lb short reset trigger and a decent lpvo. Those 3 things really make a difference to me. But, even though I'm out there trying to beat everyone, I know I won't, not because I dont have the zootest comp or other doohickey, but because I dont have enough talent and I'm 66 yrs old with a bad knee. Depending on the level of competitive talent in your area, your personal level of talent and your willingness to consistently attend the match will have a lot to do with where you place and/or improve. With gear, you dont want it holding you back, but be reasonable in your expectations.
Its definitely true that gear can't overcome talent. Having said that, most guys I know will spend a certain budget to try and optimize their game stick. Some guys have a huge budget, some not so big. Some guys run a much more tactical set up and some will run a totally tricked out gamer. I kept mine sort of toward the middle but shaded toward the gamer side a little. So I have a pretty good comp, a good 3 lb short reset trigger and a decent lpvo. Those 3 things really make a difference to me. But, even though I'm out there trying to beat everyone, I know I won't, not because I dont have the zootest comp or other doohickey, but because I dont have enough talent and I'm 66 yrs old with a bad knee. Depending on the level of competitive talent in your area, your personal level of talent and your willingness to consistently attend the match will have a lot to do with where you place and/or improve. With gear, you dont want it holding you back, but be reasonable in your expectations.
99.9999% of people with a working gun and working optic don’t have the problem with gear holding them back.
Ben Stoeger won nationals with a stock pistol he had just gotten. I’ve never seen anybody who would win or lose a match based on their gear selection.
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It stings but buying Gucci gear doesn’t improve your ability. Period.
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99.9999% of people with a working gun and working optic don’t have the problem with gear holding them back.
Ben Stoeger won nationals with a stock pistol he had just gotten. I’ve never seen anybody who would win or lose a match based on their gear selection.
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Some guys have a lot of talent. More than likely when a lot of higher level shooters compete against each other, gear can make a difference. When you're trying beat a guy who's as good as you an edge can get you that tenth you needed. It might be gear or it might be that extra hour of sleep you got and he didnt.
At my level a 3 lb as opposed to a 7 lb creepy trigger can make a pretty good difference in speed and accuracy. Not huge time but a couple of seconds on a stage. I can definitely shoot my warmed over CZ SP-01 better and faster than a stock one.
As an example. I shot a 300 rd 6 stage rifle match in September. My 2 buddies who usually beat me in 3gun partied the night before until 1 or 2. I went to bed early. I beat both of them right good. Our gear was pretty similar (they have better optics) and I'm 13 and 16 yrs older. Gear wasnt the difference in this case, sleep was.
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-01-19, 20:43
This thread can be summed up by saying that flash hiders and muzzle brake/comps both have things going for and against them and everybody should just run whatever they want.
This thread can be summed up by saying that flash hiders and muzzle brake/comps both have things going for and against them and everybody should just run whatever they want.
Pretty much. But guys like to talk about gear...its all over this forum. But maybe some new guy gets helped...maybe.
Some guys have a lot of talent. More than likely when a lot of higher level shooters compete against each other, gear can make a difference. When you're trying beat a guy who's as good as you an edge can get you that tenth you needed. It might be gear or it might be that extra hour of sleep you got and he didnt.
At my level a 3 lb as opposed to a 7 lb creepy trigger can make a pretty good difference in speed and accuracy. Not huge time but a couple of seconds on a stage. I can definitely shoot my warmed over CZ SP-01 better and faster than a stock one.
As an example. I shot a 300 rd 6 stage rifle match in September. My 2 buddies who usually beat me in 3gun partied the night before until 1 or 2. I went to bed early. I beat both of them right good. Our gear was pretty similar (they have better optics) and I'm 13 and 16 yrs older. Gear wasnt the difference in this case, sleep was.
Sure operating at peak performance matters. But the difference between a comp or flash hider or a mediocre vs match trigger has virtually no effect on your score. If two shooters are on the top level, maybe gear may help push one over the edge. But more likely, lack of mental errors will do more for them.
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This thread can be summed up by saying that flash hiders and muzzle brake/comps both have things going for and against them and everybody should just run whatever they want.
Yes and no. I’m by no means advocating that everyone should just run a hybrid comp and there is no place for flash hiders. But, most of the arguments here are the same ones I initially brought up - HD/SD, night shooting, junkyard prone, or shooting in houses with other people.
I seriously doubt there are that many people here that are just operating non stop. Can’t feel the difference? I don’t know how, but sure, probably not worth it then. Personally I don’t care if a pro shooter can win a match with a stock gun. Guess what? He has a lot more time shooting and dry firing than I may ever get. So I’m not opposed to spending the extra money on a part that will give me extra mechanical advantage in case I’m being sloppy behind the gun. And we’re talking about a difference of like $70. Buying an A2 instead of a BCM comp and putting the money saved towards ammo is not going to be the difference between a shit shooter and even a decent one.
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It's only dark half the day. Luckily the bad guys like to do most of their work in the light half...
For that reason I do not support dismissing low light, both gear and training.
Look, if your HD plan doesn't really include the AR and you don't really believe society could break down, have fun with your comps. Or if you have shot your comp in low light, and enclosed spaces and feel it's advantages outweigh the disadvantages, enjoy your comp.
Yes and no. I’m by no means advocating that everyone should just run a hybrid comp and there is no place for flash hiders. But, most of the arguments here are the same ones I initially brought up - HD/SD, night shooting, junkyard prone, or shooting in houses with other people.
I seriously doubt there are that many people here that are just operating non stop. Can’t feel the difference? I don’t know how, but sure, probably not worth it then. Personally I don’t care if a pro shooter can win a match with a stock gun. Guess what? He has a lot more time shooting and dry firing than I may ever get. So I’m not opposed to spending the extra money on a part that will give me extra mechanical advantage in case I’m being sloppy behind the gun. And we’re talking about a difference of like $70. Buying an A2 instead of a BCM comp and putting the money saved towards ammo is not going to be the difference between a shit shooter and even a decent one.
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On the same vein, the comp is going to take you from shit shooter to descent either.
Have you ever put the comp on your gun and read the timer? Then put the flash hider on and read the timer?
If you haven’t your entire thread is “feelings” and not logical.
Fractions of a second in standardized drills is all you’re getting with a comp. I’ve got half my guns with comps and it is small potatoes. Very small. I’ve done bill drills side by side from low ready and looking at the scores and times, they weren’t perceivable different.
The better topic would be “comps are not very useful, change my mind”. With that title, I’m not sure you could come up with a compelling reason to use one.
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Larry Vicker’s personal carbine set-up from a little over a year ago. Looks like he chose to use the BCM Gunfighter hybrid muzzle device on it, so he evidently thought it was an okay compromise for *him*.
https://youtu.be/4XtZp9uwpFk
Five_Point_Five_Six
11-02-19, 10:16
Yes and no. I’m by no means advocating that everyone should just run a hybrid comp and there is no place for flash hiders. But, most of the arguments here are the same ones I initially brought up - HD/SD, night shooting, junkyard prone, or shooting in houses with other people.
I seriously doubt there are that many people here that are just operating non stop. Can’t feel the difference? I don’t know how, but sure, probably not worth it then. Personally I don’t care if a pro shooter can win a match with a stock gun. Guess what? He has a lot more time shooting and dry firing than I may ever get. So I’m not opposed to spending the extra money on a part that will give me extra mechanical advantage in case I’m being sloppy behind the gun. And we’re talking about a difference of like $70. Buying an A2 instead of a BCM comp and putting the money saved towards ammo is not going to be the difference between a shit shooter and even a decent one.
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No one here that is saying they prefer flash hiders has claimed to be operating non stop. That's an inaccurate takeaway of the things posted in this thread and reads like someone emotionally invested in their muzzle device. The juice ain't worth the squeeze for some of us.
The price difference isn't a financial burden for me. If I felt like I was truly gaining an advantage I would use a brake or comp. I don't, so the $70 is a waste. I don't just apply that logic to gun parts either. Spending money unnecessarily over the course of a lifetime is how people end up broke when they retire and dependent on Social Security as their only form of retirement income. I'm not saying that's the camp you fall into, just a general observation.
I have have flash hiders (A2, SF closed tine) 14.5” guns and BCM Comps on a 14.5” and a 11.5”. My personal preference is the BCM comp, though the difference between comp and a FH is marginally noticeable. Slight flatter shooting, slightly more flash with the BCM comp. I’ve been next to the 11.5” being shot indoors on numerous occasions and while it is loud while a more concussion than the FH, it didn’t bother me in the slightest.
Larry Vicker’s personal carbine set-up from a little over a year ago. Looks like he chose to use the BCM Gunfighter hybrid muzzle device on it, so he evidently thought it was an okay compromise for *him*.
https://youtu.be/4XtZp9uwpFk
That’s already been mentioned. Remember, he has the job to sell BCM products. Larry also shoots rifles for a living in front of students.
Larry even states he is biased.
He also uses keymod. Should we all go to keymod because Larry does?
For every ex-operator using a comp I’d bet you’ll find two or three using something else.
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turnburglar
11-02-19, 11:13
This thread can be summed up by saying ..... Some people think they can compete with Jerry Mic, and everyone else realizes they are a typical shooter"
Fixed that for you.
I used to think that splits mattered for competition. Then I actually looked at an events score chart and realized that the SD between shooters was 10 seconds, not a tenth of a second. Therefor muzzle device was completely irrelevant for match results.
If making your rifle more annoying to everyone else around you, makes you 'feel' like a more proficient shooter, that's up to the individual. Some dudes put stupid wings and stickers on their cars too. I don't.
I can't think of any other way to disprove the "I rock a comp cause my splits wins events argument" but that really is the only reason people buy comps.
I used to think splits mattered. Then I stared shooting USPSA. Now I know timing and subconscious gun handling matter more. And movement.
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It all matters to a better score. Do you think a production gun can be shot as fast with the same accuracy as an open gun? I don't.
And the idea that anyone at any match has said something like "I rock a comp cause my spilts win events" is pretty off the wall. It's a strawman.
Comps, better triggers, tuned gas systems, light weight BCG's, good optics work to make the gun more shootable, if they didn't nobody would bother to use them, including guys like Jerry Miculek, unless of course you think he's some sort of shill. I can tell the difference between my competition gun and my non comp gun. It's a subtle difference but still noticeable. And this equipment isn't magic, it's not going make you a GM in 3gun if you're a C shooter.
Walker_Texasranger
11-02-19, 12:27
I just got back from shooting my brand new BCM 14.5 with pinned Comp Mod 1. I was worried about it based on all the hate on here. Holy crap. There’s no extra blast. At all. Least, I couldn’t tell a difference between my A2 guns. Blown way out of proportion. Didn’t notice any flash at a poorly lit indoor range either. Very glad I went with it over an A2X.
It all matters to a better score. Do you think a production gun can be shot as fast with the same accuracy as an open gun? I don't.
And the idea that anyone at any match has said something like "I rock a comp cause my spilts win events" is pretty off the wall. It's a strawman.
Comps, better triggers, tuned gas systems, light weight BCG's, good optics work to make the gun more shootable, if they didn't nobody would bother to use them, including guys like Jerry Miculek, unless of course you think he's some sort of shill. I can tell the difference between my competition gun and my non comp gun. It's a subtle difference but still noticeable. And this equipment isn't magic, it's not going make you a GM in 3gun if you're a C shooter.
Again, Skill trumps gadgets.
There have been lots of carry optics guns that have won open division.
And before that, there were guys with production guns without a dot winning carry optics divisions. They specifically changed the rules to require a dot.
Yup, little improvements can and do help. But the comp on an AR does as close to nothing as it can be.
If we are building race guns we can go over to Benos and talk about race guns.
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I think the best way to sum it for me is this:
If I bought a gun that came with a good comp, I would just leave it on
If I bought a gun with a fh on it, I would leave it on.
If I was buying a gun and it had the option of either, I would go with a FH, especially assuming the comp. Would be an upcharge
This is all assuming 556. You get into 308 and I start to see more of an advantage to a comp.
At the end of the day though, it's really going to get a muzzle device I can mount my suppressor to.
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Again, Skill trumps gadgets.
There have been lots of carry optics guns that have won open division.
And before that, there were guys with production guns without a dot winning carry optics divisions. They specifically changed the rules to require a dot.
Yup, little improvements can and do help. But the comp on an AR does as close to nothing as it can be.
If we are building race guns we can go over to Benos and talk about race guns.
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The question is can you shoot an open gun faster and more accurate than a production gun? Is the comp actually helping to control the recoil and muzzle rise or is it doing next to nothing? The question was never does talent trump gear... the question is do we optimize our gear so it's helping not hurting us. Even guys that are into SD shooting here optimize their gear and guns to not hinder their ability to perform. that's what this thread was about to begin with. If you don't think comp don't anything, fine, I do think they help and pretty much everybody competing, at least in speed games like 3gun, does too. That doesn't make it true of course, but it should make us ask if all these people are on to something.
The question is can you shoot an open gun faster and more accurate than a production gun? Is the comp actually helping to control the recoil and muzzle rise or is it doing next to nothing? The question was never does talent trump gear... the question is do we optimize our gear so it's helping not hurting us. Even guys that are into SD shooting here optimize their gear and guns to not hinder their ability to perform. that's what this thread was about to begin with. If you don't think comp don't anything, fine, I do think they help and pretty much everybody competing, at least in speed games like 3gun, does too. That doesn't make it true of course, but it should make us ask if all these people are on to something.
Thank you.
The question was never about a comp taking a shooter from sub par to winning competitions. Instead, if it makes the same person even a bit faster, is it not worth the recommendation to run it on a GP rifle? I’m not trying to beat other people, I’m trying to beat myself. $70 in a hybrid comp will do that before $70 in ammo, IME. But it’s true, I’ve never swapped MDs at the range, so this is all based off feelings. Because I can feel (and more importantly, see with my reticle) the difference between comp and MD.
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turnburglar
11-02-19, 14:39
TomMcC-
It doesn't make a difference though. Please show me a event where winners and losers where determined by a fraction of a second? Thats ALL you get with a comp. Fractions, and a very small fraction at that. For me and lsllc, we realize that fractions of a second means nothing when you want 10's-100's of seconds. However the disadvantages of a comp are real. I don't know what rules your competitions use, but mine shoot under the IMA 3G rules, and we don't even mention anything except the maximum volume of a comp. Mostly the rules dictate optics, bipods, and mag size. The things that really matter. Buffers, BCG's, gas blocks, triggers, etc are left unregulated.
TomMcC-
It doesn't make a difference though. Please show me a event where winners and losers where determined by a fraction of a second? Thats ALL you get with a comp. Fractions, and a very small fraction at that. For me and lsllc, we realize that fractions of a second means nothing when you want 10's-100's of seconds. However the disadvantages of a comp are real. I don't know what rules your competitions use, but mine shoot under the IMA 3G rules, and we don't even mention anything except the maximum volume of a comp. Mostly the rules dictate optics, bipods, and mag size. The things that really matter. Buffers, BCG's, gas blocks, triggers, etc are left unregulated.
I've seen stages won or lost by tenths. But your challenge is impossible to prove either way. No one can prove absolutely that a trigger, bcg or whatever piece of equipment gave you the win or the loss. Even guys who post threads where they ran a rds and a lpvo back to back doesn't take into account all the variables of the human factor. All I can tell you is that I can shoot my gamer rifle a bit faster than my ad rifle.its subjective to me and that's what I will continue with. Use what you want.
Walker_Texasranger
11-02-19, 16:44
If you put a Surefire SFMB or similar on your gun it’s way more than tenths. If your sight is literally staying still, you can dump rounds on target as fast as you can pull a trigger.
Dude, I lost to a buddy at a match-.02, yes, .02! Payback was when I won 2 pistols on the random drawing(Glock) I think we just need to ask what we want from the "enhancements" I can certainly tell a difference on an AR with an A2 verses a BCM.
The question is can you shoot an open gun faster and more accurate than a production gun? Is the comp actually helping to control the recoil and muzzle rise or is it doing next to nothing? The question was never does talent trump gear... the question is do we optimize our gear so it's helping not hurting us. Even guys that are into SD shooting here optimize their gear and guns to not hinder their ability to perform. that's what this thread was about to begin with. If you don't think comp don't anything, fine, I do think they help and pretty much everybody competing, at least in speed games like 3gun, does too. That doesn't make it true of course, but it should make us ask if all these people are on to something.
And on an AR15 the truth is it really doesn’t matter. 0.05 s faster splits makes no difference.
We aren’t talking competition guns here. We are talking about life saving devices. If you think it helps you rock on, but you’re full of yourself if you think it really matters in real world use.
Wake made this whole thread looking for confirmation or a decision he’d already made. Period.
The comp doesn’t really matter period. It has real disadvantages. Period. You’re cool with it, rock on. I’ll still outshoot you with a flash hider.
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turnburglar
11-02-19, 17:57
I've seen stages won or lost by tenths. But your challenge is impossible to prove either way. No one can prove absolutely that a trigger, bcg or whatever piece of equipment gave you the win or the loss. .
Im not asking to confirm it was the gear that clinched the win. I just have never seen a entire match won or lost by tenths. It would be as easy to prove me wrong as simply taking a screen shot of an score sheet where this incredibly rare instance happened. My claim is very easy to prove. The standard deviation between shooters at my last event was 10 seconds. 10.00 is a LOOOONNGGG way from 0.05. now if a comp took 10 seconds off my split times I would put two of them on.
Another thing to think about: most people claim a comp helps them get the follow on shot off faster. This really only seems significant when you have to double tap a target. Which in competition happens at very close ranges. I literally have never wished my hammered pairs needed improvement. Thats like the LAST thing I could improve upon to get a better score.
ViniVidivici
11-02-19, 19:14
59445
I shoot all the time in the dark. That's a run of the mill A2 cage on an 18" barrel. Flash mitigation is important to me.
I could care less about expensive wizz bang comps. I'm simple like that though. My "recoil mitigation" comes with proper technique.
Wake made this whole thread looking for confirmation or a decision he’d already made. Period.
Like hell I did. I don’t care what other people use. I even said in this thread that I don’t care if someone runs a full comp next to me. I’ve used BCM comps for years and will continue to do so, despite what is said here (especially since there has yet to be a better an argument to convince me otherwise).
I created this thread because I have noticed several posts lately where people have been recommending against anything other than a FH and I don’t agree with the reasons. Since it happened in multiple threads and I figured there could be decent discussion from it, I decided it was worthy of its own thread. And I use my GP gun for gaming along with everything else. The point of it being general purpose, is that it can fulfill multiple roles relatively well.
I’m not which is more ignorant, assuming someone’s motivations or claiming that you’ll outshoot everyone here.
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Like hell I did. I don’t care what other people use. I even said in this thread that I don’t care if someone runs a full comp next to me. I’ve used BCM comps for years and will continue to do so, despite what is said here (especially since there has yet to be a better an argument to convince me otherwise).
I created this thread because I have noticed several posts lately where people have been recommending against anything other than a FH and I don’t agree with the reasons. Since it happened in multiple threads and I figured there could be decent discussion from it, I decided it was worthy of its own thread. And I use my GP gun for gaming along with everything else. The point of it being general purpose, is that it can fulfill multiple roles relatively well.
I’m not which is more ignorant, assuming someone’s motivations or claiming that you’ll outshoot everyone here.
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That’s cool. Quantify it on a timer and paper. Prove your point.
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That’s cool. Quantify it on a timer and paper. Prove your point.
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It would literally be impossible to qualify this type of experiment on paper. Why? Because even if the equipment doesn't change at all, people change. No one shoots the same string from one string to the next exactly the same. Your reflexes could be off a tiny bit, your concentration may have changed, your body movements won't be exactly the same. Whatever differences you encounter in times could and would be chocked up to any number variables I haven't even mentioned or the person trying the experiment isn't even aware of.
As far as I was concerned, this thread was useless from the beginning - there is no one size fits all.
Wake77 wasn't asking for advice, he was like a flat earther asking folks to prove to him the world is an elliptical sphere, ain't going to happen.
I'm not much for brakes, too blasty, haven't purchased any hybrid comps, so my frame of reference is limited. I didn't notice much ROI in terms of flatter recoil with the brake, though. Freely admit I don't have splits though.
My Omega came with their Anchor Brake, it was also obnoxious as fvck, first thing I did was order a flat cap. Next thing was an ASR flash hider, then a blast shield for the ASR brake.
I did have to laugh when I read this:
The blast - this may be the biggest reason I see.........Yeah its noticeable and if its possible, I'll take an extra step away, but unless you're a complete bitch, I just don't see how its a real issue. .
Because when it comes to AR's, I was kind of thinking 'you're a complete bitch' if you complain about recoil.....
Everyone should do whatever makes them happy, or makes them feel OAF.
Why the 'do you want to leave this page' double taps all of a sudden?
I'm pretty sure this article has made the rounds here but worth a post.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/556-muzzle-device-shootout/
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At least with this type of experiment, even though every conceivable variable probably hasn't been taken into account, there is a good faith attempt to remove the human element. And there seems to be a very real difference in recoil mitigation between the devices and no device at all. Is it a huge difference, no. Is there a difference...seems so. Will it help your shooting? That's pretty subjective. Who am I to tell someone it's not really helping them. All I can say is what I experience, you may or may not have a similar experience.
It would literally be impossible to qualify this type of experiment on paper. Why? Because even if the equipment doesn't change at all, people change. No one shoots the same string from one string to the next exactly the same. Your reflexes could be off a tiny bit, your concentration may have changed, your body movements won't be exactly the same. Whatever differences you encounter in times could and would be chocked up to any number variables I haven't even mentioned or the person trying the experiment isn't even aware of.
Then why are open guns better?
No, I can take my comp fun and flash hider gun and shoot the same drills for hit factor and it’s more or less the same. Do it at the same time back to back.
If it can’t be quantified, then it’s fantasy.
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Then why are open guns better?
No, I can take my comp fun and flash hider gun and shoot the same drills for hit factor and it’s more or less the same. Do it at the same time back to back.
If it can’t be quantified, then it’s fantasy.
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Is logic quantifiable by physical evidences? Is it a fantasy? There are all kinds of things that are not quantifiable on a timer orby experiment that are real.
Simply put, I don't mean to insult you at all, you may not be good enough to wring out the best in particular gun. And "more or less" isn't exactly an exact measurement is it? All I'm saying is that if comps don't help you in any subjective way, I understand really...and I say don't use them. But there are thousands of 3gunners out there that would say your wrong in their usefulness. It's like that with everything gun related, or cars or fill in the blank.
Is logic quantifiable by physical evidences? Is it a fantasy? There are all kinds of things that are not quantifiable on a timer orby experiment that are real.
Simply put, I don't mean to insult you at all, you may not be good enough to wring out the best in particular gun. And "more or less" isn't exactly an exact measurement is it? All I'm saying is that if comps don't help you in any subjective way, I understand really...and I say don't use them. But there are thousands of 3gunners out there that would say your wrong in their usefulness. It's like that with everything gun related, or cars or fill in the blank.
As I said, it’s on the 0.05s range. If that is worth it to you, then go for it.
What advantage have you quantified?
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As I said, it’s on the 0.05s range. If that is worth it to you, then go for it.
What advantage have you quantified?
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I would take a .05 sec improvement in splits...I'd take any improvement in anything. An improvement is an improvement. Are you sure that .05 is the result of a comp/no comp situation? Could be something else?
I don't believe that any series of experiments could prove much of anything. Too many variables that aren't controllable or missed. All I can tell you is that my 3gun rifle is sightlier easy to shoot than my non-3gun rifles in a game situation, that is my experience.
Is logic quantifiable by physical evidences? Is it a fantasy? There are all kinds of things that are not quantifiable on a timer orby experiment that are real.
Simply put, I don't mean to insult you at all, you may not be good enough to wring out the best in particular gun. And "more or less" isn't exactly an exact measurement is it? All I'm saying is that if comps don't help you in any subjective way, I understand really...and I say don't use them. But there are thousands of 3gunners out there that would say your wrong in their usefulness. It's like that with everything gun related, or cars or fill in the blank.
None of the disadvantages of a comp are applicable in a game setting.
Probably not very much applicable in an offensive situation either, but thats drifting out if my lane...
I think the premise of comps helping splits is misguided- they make it easier to call shots and control recoil, possibly improving accuracy with the same splits.
It may improve splits at a given distance, but wherever you are shooting full speed- a comp will not speed that up, it will only (potentially) tighten the groups.
... and putting a number on it is useless without distance. Improving by .05s on a target that normally takes 3 second splits is much different than improving by .05s on a target you normally get .2s splits on.
Fwiw- I use fh because of what I do with my rifles.
I have a comp on a short silencer host for baffle protection.
Edit- as for quantifying, do a drill 5 with fh, 5 times with a comp, you will have variation and average times. You can compare them and draw conclusions, based on the data. Its basic statistical analysis and allows you to quantify stuff.
If you post times, I can do some analysis and walk you through it and how to read the data.
I could do bare comp or bare fh vs silencer. My comp/fh are on different barrel lengths so it would not be a good comparison.
ViniVidivici
11-03-19, 11:00
Because when it comes to AR's, I was kind of thinking 'you're a complete bitch' if you complain about recoil.....
Col. Cooper would approve.
I would take a .05 sec improvement in splits...I'd take any improvement in anything. An improvement is an improvement. Are you sure that .05 is the result of a comp/no comp situation? Could be something else?
I don't believe that any series of experiments could prove much of anything. Too many variables that aren't controllable or missed. All I can tell you is that my 3gun rifle is sightlier easy to shoot than my non-3gun rifles in a game situation, that is my experience.
How can you experiment with it? Umm same gun, shoot with the flash hider then with the comp. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp.
The real question isn’t is it easier to shoot. The real question is is there a significant enough of an advantage to be worth the disadvantages? Is it the right tool for the job?
Do you conceal carry your pork pistol? An open pistol is significantly more an ad advantage to a production pistol than an open AR is to a standard AR.
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None of the disadvantages of a comp are applicable in a game setting.
Probably not very much applicable in an offensive situation either, but thats drifting out if my lane...
I think the premise of comps helping splits is misguided- they make it easier to call shots and control recoil, possibly improving accuracy with the same splits.
It may improve splits at a given distance, but wherever you are shooting full speed- a comp will not speed that up, it will only (potentially) tighten the groups.
... and putting a number on it is useless without distance. Improving by .05s on a target that normally takes 3 second splits is much different than improving by .05s on a target you normally get .2s splits on.
Fwiw- I use fh because of what I do with my rifles.
I have a comp on a short silencer host for baffle protection.
Edit- as for quantifying, do a drill 5 with fh, 5 times with a comp, you will have variation and average times. You can compare them and draw conclusions, based on the data. Its basic statistical analysis and allows you to quantify stuff.
If you post times, I can do some analysis and walk you through it and how to read the data.
I could do bare comp or bare fh vs silencer. My comp/fh are on different barrel lengths so it would not be a good comparison.
Good post. One contention, and maybe it’s me. But I call my shot as the dot lifts. A comp won’t make that easier for me. If anything or would make it less obvious. Is there technique I’m unaware of that a comp can aide my shot calling?
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My BCM upper came with a gunfighter mod 0 comp, and I’ve been very happy with it. Noticeable difference between DD’s version of an A2/A2X, and the blast isn’t insane. I took a class and didn’t get any dirty looks. I was also able to shoot lying on my side without eating a face full of dust.
I wouldn’t pay $90 for a GF comp when an A2 is so cheap, but I’ve been happy with it.
How can you experiment with it? Umm same gun, shoot with the flash hider then with the comp. I don’t know why this is so hard for you to grasp.
The real question isn’t is it easier to shoot. The real question is is there a significant enough of an advantage to be worth the disadvantages? Is it the right tool for the job?
Do you conceal carry your pork pistol? An open pistol is significantly more an ad advantage to a production pistol than an open AR is to a standard AR.
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Evidently you didn't read my post or disagree with premise on the usefulness or lack there of even shooting things back to back. People aren't consistent, they are the variable that undermines the process.
In 3gun there are no disadvantages that I'm aware of. In SD, for me, there are disadvantages and I talked about those, I don't us comps or hybrids on my SD guns. Others determined for themselves that my disadvantages weren't their disadvantages...I'm perfectly fine with that. And no I wouldn't carry an open gun CCW because of it's disadvantages for that situtation. But in USPSA an open gun gives pretty big advantages. That's why, generally speaking, guys that can run an open gun well usually win the match.
Evidently you didn't read my post or disagree with premise on the usefulness or lack there of even shooting things back to back. People aren't consistent, they are the variable that undermines the process.
In 3gun there are no disadvantages that I'm aware of. In SD, for me, there are disadvantages and I talked about those, I don't us comps or hybrids on my SD guns. Others determined for themselves that my disadvantages weren't their disadvantages...I'm perfectly fine with that. And no I wouldn't carry an open gun CCW because of it's disadvantages for that situtation. But in USPSA an open gun gives pretty big advantages. That's why, generally speaking, guys that can run an open gun well usually win the match.
I did read it and understand. That’s why you repeat it. You take an average.
If one cannot shoot consistency enough over several strings to determine an average the. It’s obvious there is no advantage and you can drop the discussion and say comps ain’t worth having.
And no, PCC shooters usually win [emoji23]
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Over the years I agreed with you. I ran Battlecomps on several carbines and BCM comps later on, all on 14.5's with pinned devices. I found they worked well and seemed a bit more controllable and not bad a flash suppression. When I was shooting ten thousand rounds a year it seemed worth it to me. Fast forward past deployments , past being a true first responder, I now really do prefer a 16" barrel and an A-2. This year I bought what will be my last two carbines and I just didn't want to spend the money on the muzzle devices. So for me it is simply a change in life in that I don't want to spend the money for the minimal gains anymore. But I still think you're right!
This post ^
Very helpful, thanks much. Brought a lot of clarity to my thought process.
ExplorinInTheWoods
11-03-19, 16:50
I've noticed people pushing flash hiders pretty hard lately, and I can't figure out a good reason why. Hybrid devices such as the BCM comp, WarComp, and to a lesser extent Battle Comp, are superior for a GP rifle, not a flash hider. Here's why: most people don't shoot in the dark, and if they do, its pretty rare. Also, if they do, its even more rare that they're in a contested environment where bad guys would shoot back at them without signature reduction. Any level of recoil reduction will be far more beneficial than flash suppression in the majority of circumstances. Hybrid comps provide some level of recoil reduction without producing an obnoxious fireball and concussion like dedicated brakes. And while they are more blasty to stand next to, they're rarely of significant inconvenience.
Warcomp is the best general purpose muzzle device. It has good flash reduction, keeps the muzzle flat, has some recoil reduction, and also accepts a suppressor.
Col. Cooper would approve.
Maybe it's from all my time with shotguns, but I just don't register it much.
Kind of like Glock BTF LOL
Walker_Texasranger
11-03-19, 17:31
Warcomp is the best general purpose muzzle device. It has good flash reduction, keeps the muzzle flat, has some recoil reduction, and also accepts a suppressor.
I’ve seen complaints that it drives the muzzle down too much. That’s what kept me from getting one on my last gun, but I’ve never gotten to try one so I don’t know from personal experience.
I did read it and understand. That’s why you repeat it. You take an average.
If one cannot shoot consistency enough over several strings to determine an average the. It’s obvious there is no advantage and you can drop the discussion and say comps ain’t worth having.
And no, PCC shooters usually win [emoji23]
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Why is it that when MegademiC postulates that comps don't speed up splits (which I agree with, since a comp doesn't control how fast you can pull the trigger) but does allow for more accuracy between the shot (less dispersion) a seeming advantaged...you fall silent?
Because a difference can't be measured, thus indicating no worth, it doesn't follow that there is not a benefit, but it is subjective like I've been saying all along. That's why I said it is subtle. It is my experience that the gun moves less, is easier to get back on target things of that nature...it's less work. And the times at any particular time may or may not reflect that depending on other factors. After reading some your other interactions it seems to me you can be quite rigid in negating others experience of something and appeal to some sort of empiricism as the final arbitrator...if you can't touch it, see it, taste it, hear it or smell it it didn't happen. If that how you think you might lighten up a bit. Empiricism is formally fallacious.
PCC doesn't always win in the matches around SoCa, there are still some pretty good pistol shooters around here. Besides comparing PCC to pistols is an apples to oranges to me.
Why is it that when MegademiC postulates that comps don't speed up splits (which I agree with, since a comp doesn't control how fast you can pull the trigger) but does allow for more accuracy between the shot (less dispersion) a seeming advantaged...you fall silent?
Because a difference can't be measured, thus indicating no worth, it doesn't follow that there is not a benefit, but it is subjective like I've been saying all along. That's why I said it is subtle. It is my experience that the gun moves less, is easier to get back on target things of that nature...it's less work. And the times at any particular time may or may not reflect that depending on other factors. After reading some your other interactions it seems to me you can be quite rigid in negating others experience of something and appeal to some sort of empiricism as the final arbitrator...if you can't touch it, see it, taste it, hear it or smell it it didn't happen. If that how you think you might lighten up a bit. Empiricism is formally fallacious.
PCC doesn't always win in the matches around SoCa, there are still some pretty good pistol shooters around here. Besides comparing PCC to pistols is an apples to oranges to me.
He made the leap you failed to.
I never said comps don’t work.
I said it was marginal and they do next to nothing.
I still cannot figure out how you believe that performance cannot be measured. Again, if performance cannot be measured in some way, why buy one? I fully understand people are variable and don’t perform to the same level 100% of the time. But there are TRENDS in performance. But it sounds as though you’re arguing that there isn’t. If one performs the same standardized drill ten times back to back alternating between the same gear with the only difference being the comp, and you measure score, hit factor, etc, you’re arguing that doesn’t tell anything? If it doesn’t tell anything, then you must conclude it doesn’t matter. If it doesn’t matter, why should one buy one?
Performance is quantifiable. Do you track your own performance? If you don’t, then can you determine if your training is doing something for you?
Please, I want to understand how it can be “good and better in performance” if it cannot be measured?
Also, I didn’t make this personal, and neither should you.
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Also I need to add they do speed up splits; if your accuracy standard is fixed, which it should be, the comps will speed up your splits maintaining a given level of accuracy.
If you’re pulling the trigger so fast you cannot maintain your accuracy standard, you need to slow down. You shouldn’t be firing two hopers and calling it good.
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Belmont31R
11-03-19, 20:49
Deleted and trying this a 3rd time but people arguing about split times and 1 way range 'gun gamer' nonsense is pretty ****ing gay (no offense to the gays out there I promise).
Its sad how performing in courses and against timers have become so dominant when actually using these guns and when bullets are coming the other way throws most of that BS out the window.
And yes I've seen the videos of different instructors with comps and other sponsored gear. Guaranteed if they were thrown into a situation the comps would be gone and they'd do just fine with a birdcage. Haley's favorite MD is a Surefire comp but under a suppressor on 1 way ranges. I like the SF comp too when Ive used them but not a gun that might get used inside my own bedroom or kitchen.
He made the leap you failed to.
I never said comps don’t work.
I said it was marginal and they do next to nothing.
I still cannot figure out how you believe that performance cannot be measured. Again, if performance cannot be measured in some way, why buy one? I fully understand people are variable and don’t perform to the same level 100% of the time. But there are TRENDS in performance. But it sounds as though you’re arguing that there isn’t. If one performs the same standardized drill ten times back to back alternating between the same gear with the only difference being the comp, and you measure score, hit factor, etc, you’re arguing that doesn’t tell anything? If it doesn’t tell anything, then you must conclude it doesn’t matter. If it doesn’t matter, why should one buy one?
Performance is quantifiable. Do you track your own performance? If you don’t, then can you determine if your training is doing something for you?
Please, I want to understand how it can be “good and better in performance” if it cannot be measured?
Also, I didn’t make this personal, and neither should you.
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I'm confused now. Comp's work but do next to nothing? I think we're now talking pass each other. I agree that in the scheme of things they don't do wonders. Guys at Enos, bless their hearts, are always chasing the latest doohickey to get that edge. It took me a few years to get my rifle to where it is now and have pretty much left it alone. the trigger, comp, optic, handguard etc etc are about as good as I want it to be. It's a package deal...the trigger adds a little, the comp adds a little, the scope maybe adds a bit more to the overall shootability for me, and me alone.
I do believe performance can sort of be measured, but a bunch of things would hinder a true and consistent outcome. One I've mentioned, the inconsistent human. #2 would be ascribing any performance change to a particular individual part. Rifles are a system and all the parts work together. So I take the trigger out after doing a bunch of double taps at 15 yds. So, I do it again with a mil-spec trigger and I'm .02 sec. slower on average with my mental and physical condition..for that day. Have I really proven much of anything? I don't think so. Even though the tuned trigger did next to nothing, I would still consider it a benefit to the overall system.
Training? I dry fire and practice quad loading my shotgun in my bedroom when I have a spare 15 mins.. I work 2 jobs 60 hours a week and have been doing that for over 20 yrs. Sunday is my day of rest. I shoot 2 3guns on the 3rd and 4th Saturdays with a couple of friends. If I shot anymore I would be have some trouble with my wife. Maybe I can actually train when I retire here shortly.
The reason I made it personal is that you don't seem to take into account people's experiences of a rifle and their benefits derived unless it is somehow measured and duplicated.
Deleted and trying this a 3rd time but people arguing about split times and 1 way range 'gun gamer' nonsense is pretty ****ing gay (no offense to the gays out there I promise).
Its sad how performing in courses and against timers have become so dominant when actually using these guns and when bullets are coming the other way throws most of that BS out the window.
And yes I've seen the videos of different instructors with comps and other sponsored gear. Guaranteed if they were thrown into a situation the comps would be gone and they'd do just fine with a birdcage. Haley's favorite MD is a Surefire comp but under a suppressor on 1 way ranges. I like the SF comp too when Ive used them but not a gun that might get used inside my own bedroom or kitchen.
Another dissatisfied customer...I must really work harder to please you. I'll let my wife know how gay I am...that will be my penitence.
Yup. I stated that from the beginning. It’s a minor benefit....and to me, the cost is not with it...financially, increased flash, dust when in prone, and the confusion when inside.
I’m not wanting to say they are universally good and should be used for “general use” as the topic suggests. I’m not willing to conclude they are the default setting anywhere outside gaming. And then I’m not sure that a comp vs no comp is going to be the decider in any situation.
While a slightly different subject, many of the 9mm guys I know don’t use a comp because they say it slows them down because the muzzle dips.
The WarComp I have seems to do the very same thing with certain loads.
And one thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the fact that comps can sometimes rob accuracy. And I mean that from a benched rifle shooting groups slow fire. One of my rifles went to crap when I played with the comp on it. It was properly installed and torqued. Put the flash hider back and accuracy fame back.
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ExplorinInTheWoods
11-03-19, 21:45
I’ve seen complaints that it drives the muzzle down too much. That’s what kept me from getting one on my last gun, but I’ve never gotten to try one so I don’t know from personal experience.
Have not had that problem with any of mine. I have 2 16inch ones, a 10.5, and I’ve put on about a half dozen for different friends and family. My 10.5 I have timed neutrally and if there was one that would drive it down it would be that one. I’ve shot the bcm comp and that one kind of drives it down compared to a warcomp. Honestly what’s probably happening is the guys are used to having to drive the gun back down after each shot they’re over doing it because the comp is keeping it flat but habit causes them to muscle it down when they don’t need to.
Yup. I stated that from the beginning. It’s a minor benefit....and to me, the cost is not with it...financially, increased flash, dust when in prone, and the confusion when inside.
I’m not wanting to say they are universally good and should be used for “general use” as the topic suggests. I’m not willing to conclude they are the default setting anywhere outside gaming. And then I’m not sure that a comp vs no comp is going to be the decider in any situation.
While a slightly different subject, many of the 9mm guys I know don’t use a comp because they say it slows them down because the muzzle dips.
The WarComp I have seems to do the very same thing with certain loads.
And one thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the fact that comps can sometimes rob accuracy. And I mean that from a benched rifle shooting groups slow fire. One of my rifles went to crap when I played with the comp on it. It was properly installed and torqued. Put the flash hider back and accuracy fame back.
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I think this is most reasonable. Comps, for me, are for gamer guns. I use fh for my defensive guns.
Belmont31R
11-03-19, 21:50
I'm confused now. Comp's work but do next to nothing? I think we're now talking pass each other. I agree that in the scheme of things they don't do wonders. Guys at Enos, bless their hearts, are always chasing the latest doohickey to get that edge. It took me a few years to get my rifle to where it is now and have pretty much left it alone. the trigger, comp, optic, handguard etc etc are about as good as I want it to be. It's a package deal...the trigger adds a little, the comp adds a little, the scope maybe adds a bit more to the overall shootability for me, and me alone.
I do believe performance can sort of be measured, but a bunch of things would hinder a true and consistent outcome. One I've mentioned, the inconsistent human. #2 would be ascribing any performance change to a particular individual part. Rifles are a system and all the parts work together. So I take the trigger out after doing a bunch of double taps at 15 yds. So, I do it again with a mil-spec trigger and I'm .02 sec. slower on average with my mental and physical condition..for that day. Have I really proven much of anything? I don't think so. Even though the tuned trigger did next to nothing, I would still consider it a benefit to the overall system.
Training? I dry fire and practice quad loading my shotgun in my bedroom when I have a spare 15 mins.. I work 2 jobs 60 hours a week and have been doing that for over 20 yrs. Sunday is my day of rest. I shoot 2 3guns on the 3rd and 4th Saturdays with a couple of friends. If I shot anymore I would be have some trouble with my wife. Maybe I can actually train when I retire here shortly.
The reason I made it personal is that you don't seem to take into account people's experiences of a rifle and their benefits derived unless it is somehow measured and duplicated.
Another dissatisfied customer...I must really work harder to please you. I'll let my wife know how gay I am...that will be my penitence.
No offense but I couldn't care less what a 3 gun shooter has to say about HD/SD or duty guns. Gamer shooters don't interest me in the least.
No offense but I couldn't care less what a 3 gun shooter has to say about HD/SD or duty guns. Gamer shooters don't interest me in the least.
I'll take no offense, but remember many things that started on the gaming field wound being used in the sd field. As an example...the weaver and the isosceles.
I'd like to also say that I'm not good enough at much of anything related to shooting to be a teacher. I only related my own personal experience on a fairly narrow subject.
No offense but I couldn't care less what a 3 gun shooter has to say about HD/SD or duty guns. Gamer shooters don't interest me in the least.
Lots of tier 1 door kickers speak highly of the the benefit of competitive shooting and are gamers themselves.
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Mr. Goodtimes
11-03-19, 22:10
The hybrid comps are literally the worst of both worlds... They neither compensate very well nor hide flash very well. Pick one or the other.
Belmont31R
11-03-19, 22:26
Lots of tier 1 door kickers speak highly of the the benefit of competitive shooting and are gamers themselves.
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Thats fine but not opposed what I was saying. I just don't care when people act like what works on known stages or 1 way ranges automatically means its GTG for every other purpose. That doesn't mean people can't benefit from shooting different events or scenarios. Theres a big difference between knowing you're using equipment because you aren't shooting from confined spaces around other people with no ear pro or on a stage you can watch 10 other people navigate first where everyone has protective equipment and if you mess up its just an oops.
I'd use a SF brake on every gun if all I ever thought I was going to use them for was shooting cardboard or paper.
Thats fine but not opposed what I was saying. I just don't care when people act like what works on known stages or 1 way ranges automatically means its GTG for every other purpose. That doesn't mean people can't benefit from shooting different events or scenarios. Theres a big difference between knowing you're using equipment because you aren't shooting from confined spaces around other people with no ear pro or on a stage you can watch 10 other people navigate first where everyone has protective equipment and if you mess up its just an oops.
I'd use a SF brake on every gun if all I ever thought I was going to use them for was shooting cardboard or paper.
Just pointing out, because one is a gamer doesn’t mean they are ignorant of the other side of the house.
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Nobody responded to my last response, I assume because there aren’t any good arguments against it. Just like no one responded to mark’s post.
And no one here is complaining about the recoil of an AR. We can try to minimize it further without complaining about it. It’s not bad, but it exists so it could be better.
And I carry a comp’d 19 with RMR. I also compete with it. Because out of my handguns, it’s what I shoot best. The negatives are drastically overstated by people afraid of change IMO, which sounds familiar...
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This isn’t a discussion that particularly interests me, but I figure it is worth pointing out this super heavy gamer gun with a hybrid muzzle device.
https://lmtdefense.com/firearms/nz-mars-l
As was already said, you’ve got your mind made up. You said you don’t care about the negatives. You started the thread with your mind made up.
You’re also using one of the least compy comps out there.
It’s mediocre as a comp. It’s mediocre as a flash hider.
Other than mental masturbation and “feelings”, can you prove it’s better?
Like I said, I have all the comps too. I have the WarComp, the Battle Comp and several of the BCM comps when they were freebies.
Of those, the only one that gives me the feeling I’m ready to shoot an A-zone any faster is the Battlecomp. I also use that rifle to hunt with quite a bit, it’s a 14.5” pin/welded. Years ago, after I’d first got the upper, I set off a round early one morning deer hunting and despite sock caps and all that, my ears rang for a good hour. I still remember the distinct flash of red in front of my face. I remember thinking, “damn I’d hate to have to light up somebody in the house with this thing in the middle of the night.”
As nobody is going to change your mind about what YOU like, you’re not going to convince anybody it’s better either.
On your comped 19, there are tons of advantages. The advantages of a comp are more significant than with a handgun and I’ll never dog you for it. I’ve spent a fair amount of time with carry comps and they do work. The one thing I found them to be most helpful for was keeping my lens clean on my x300U. That lights been on the gun 5 years an I’ve still not had to clean it.
It’s all about compromises. The comp’ed 19 is faster back on the dot for me, but I’m still faster with a CZ Shadow 2 or a Sig X5 Legion. Who wants to carry a 45 oz gun even if I “shoot it better”? Therein lies the entire point why many don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze for a comp despite it being a very mild advantage.
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ViniVidivici
11-04-19, 07:12
Maybe it's from all my time with shotguns, but I just don't register it much.
Kind of like Glock BTF LOL
I don't either. I ran a 7.62x51 as a primary for s few years......years ago, and am still appreciating the "poodle shooter".
And I guess some folks' faces are just brass magnets.
This isn’t a discussion that particularly interests me, but I figure it is worth pointing out this super heavy gamer gun with a hybrid muzzle device.
https://lmtdefense.com/firearms/nz-mars-l
Slap a trigger in it, some rail covers, maybe an optic and you're ready to game. I've seen just about every iteration of rifle used in 3gun.
I don't either. I ran a 7.62x51 as a primary for s few years......years ago, and am still appreciating the "poodle shooter".
And I guess some folks' faces are just brass magnets.
My perspective also.
My only big rifle experience when I entered the Marine Corps was shooting my dad's 30-06, a 1903 that he had redone with a Herters stock, etc. My first rounds out of the M-14 had me thinking 'wow, this is nice.'
Good post. One contention, and maybe it’s me. But I call my shot as the dot lifts. A comp won’t make that easier for me. If anything or would make it less obvious. Is there technique I’m unaware of that a comp can aide my shot calling?
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As your shooting fast, the dot streaks less and has less movement so its easier to call shots that are close to scoring lines, edge of steel, etc.
Edit-Maybe a better statement would be its easier to track the dot/sights because there is less movement.
Also I need to add they do speed up splits; if your accuracy standard is fixed, which it should be, the comps will speed up your splits maintaining a given level of accuracy.
If you’re pulling the trigger so fast you cannot maintain your accuracy standard, you need to slow down. You shouldn’t be firing two hopers and calling it good.
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Bit of a side discussion, but its a different approach. In a non-training scenario, I agree. But in training, I go to a target size/distance and speed to get 90+% hits, speed up, analyze why I miss and try to fix it.
For example. Full speed at 10yds would yield A/C every time because I was over-driving the gun. I relaxed and began getting more and more A/A. Same concept transfers to rifle.
Deleted and trying this a 3rd time but people arguing about split times and 1 way range 'gun gamer' nonsense is pretty ****ing gay (no offense to the gays out there I promise).
Its sad how performing in courses and against timers have become so dominant when actually using these guns and when bullets are coming the other way throws most of that BS out the window.
And yes I've seen the videos of different instructors with comps and other sponsored gear. Guaranteed if they were thrown into a situation the comps would be gone and they'd do just fine with a birdcage. Haley's favorite MD is a Surefire comp but under a suppressor on 1 way ranges. I like the SF comp too when Ive used them but not a gun that might get used inside my own bedroom or kitchen.
Timers is how you quantify performance and get better.
I think people approach it wrong and think “what gear can make me better”, instead of “how can I get better with the gear I need”. There is some gray area, and always some crossover, but a gear approach will always hold you back IMO.
But when it comes to shooting- getting the hits you need as quick is possible is the basis for both competition and SD, or offensive shooting.
Gamers, Trainers, and even some MIL guys get paid to run gear. Sure some of it works, sometimes the guys that know how to shoot even help design or improve it, but at then end of the day they get paid to run it and say nice things about it.
Quick question for the comp guys: Please quantify your training in low light and enclosed spaces. (Shoot house, inside a vehicle, etc.)
Quick question for the comp guys: Please quantify your training in low light and enclosed spaces. (Shoot house, inside a vehicle, etc.)
Very little. But that’s exactly the point of this thread. I’ve been shooting for several years and have done so little of that that I don’t mind not being able to put my face next to a comp at night time because that shit pretty much never happens. If it happens once, I’ll drive on.
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titsonritz
11-04-19, 17:13
Quick question for the comp guys: Please quantify your training in low light and enclosed spaces. (Shoot house, inside a vehicle, etc.)
Or non-static firing lines.
Gamers, Trainers, and even some MIL guys get paid to run gear. Sure some of it works, sometimes the guys that know how to shoot even help design or improve it, but at then end of the day they get paid to run it and say nice things about it.
Quick question for the comp guys: Please quantify your training in low light and enclosed spaces. (Shoot house, inside a vehicle, etc.)
Not always. I shoot matches with a recently retired(medical) guy who was in the 3rd special forces and spent some quality time in Afganistan. He doesn't get paid to hawk gear and he really likes the games. Games are fun, but they're not tactics training.
I only use comps in the games. SD guns I use a fh.
Very little. But that’s exactly the point of this thread. I’ve been shooting for several years and have done so little of that that I don’t mind not being able to put my face next to a comp at night time because that shit pretty much never happens. If it happens once, I’ll drive on.
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Yes, but...depending on the brake, I wonder if it isn't possible to be injured. Eye, equilibrium, etc...
What muzzle devices are the Russians currently using on their newest adopted assault rifles.
Dr. Bullseye
11-04-19, 23:09
We don't have any choice in California. The flash hider had to come off. Anything that even remotely looks like a flash hider ist Streng Verboten and may land you in a Tijuana prison cell.
Gamers, Trainers, and even some MIL guys get paid to run gear. Sure some of it works, sometimes the guys that know how to shoot even help design or improve it, but at then end of the day they get paid to run it and say nice things about it.
Quick question for the comp guys: Please quantify your training in low light and enclosed spaces. (Shoot house, inside a vehicle, etc.)
Suppressor is the answer here because even flash hiders in tight spaces are obnoxious, especially with shorter barrels. My A2 equipped 6933 throws more flash than my flash comp equipped 16” rifle.
Obviously everything is purpose driven. Serious gamers would be doing themselves a disservice by not running a comp or brake, and the guys setting up for HD/SD would benefit more from a flash hider/suppressor. For the guys who like to dabble in both, why not a hybrid device? Spend your money how you want.
Suppressor is the answer here because even flash hiders in tight spaces are obnoxious, especially with shorter barrels. My A2 equipped 6933 throws more flash than my flash comp equipped 16” rifle.
Obviously everything is purpose driven. Serious gamers would be doing themselves a disservice by not running a comp or brake, and the guys setting up for HD/SD would benefit more from a flash hider/suppressor. For the guys who like to dabble in both, why not a hybrid device? Spend your money how you want.
Exactly why my defensive gun wears a Surefire can.
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Very little. But that’s exactly the point of this thread. I’ve been shooting for several years and have done so little of that that I don’t mind not being able to put my face next to a comp at night time because that shit pretty much never happens. If it happens once, I’ll drive on.
That's fine, and is a reasonable position as long as you don't view your AR as a likely defensive tool. I suspect this is the disconnect here. You don't see the defensive use of your AR at all, much less at night or with a teammate to the side of your muzzle, as even remotely likely.
If your AR is for defensive use then I would recommend adding more realistic training. Without training you are not making an informed decision.
I know some of you may think this thread was a waste of time. However, it helped me to think through some stuff and learn from others’ experience. So I appreciate the time everyone put into it.
MountainRaven
11-05-19, 22:14
In gun games, you want fast splits with stable muzzles because you're generally going to be shooting every (paper) target twice. Your target isn't moving, only you are. You shoot them twice and then forget about them.
In the real world, you're moving. Your target is moving. Your target may shoot back. Your target can give up. Your target may have friends with them who might also shoot back, who might also give up.
The benefits are absolutely there in the very controlled environment of a range. I think there are too many moving parts in the real world for there to be any sort of quantifiable advantage to choosing a comp over a flash hider.
I know Ken Hackathorn has said not positive things about people being able to put five rounds into someone's chest in less than half a second, but here's some more diplomatically put advice from Jared Reston:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMA7Y7aer0
(If you need a comp to get your carbine splits down to 0.3 seconds, you're probably doing something wrong.)
That's fine, and is a reasonable position as long as you don't view your AR as a likely defensive tool. I suspect this is the disconnect here. You don't see the defensive use of your AR at all, much less at night or with a teammate to the side of your muzzle, as even remotely likely.
If your AR is for defensive use then I would recommend adding more realistic training. Without training you are not making an informed decision.
I absolutely view all of my ARs as defensive tools but I don't see the comp being a major liability there. Offensive tool, sure. Don't need fireballs when you're in a SBF at night or the extra concussion when your taking down buildings with team mates. But all of my rifles are more likely to see static range time, classes, or competition, much more often than defensive shootings and since I don't believe there are any significant cons affecting what I believe a likely defensive shooting will be, I don't mind gearing them for the more likely scenarios. Also, I would love "more realistic" training, assuming you mean night courses or CQB stuff. But its harder to find.
In gun games, you want fast splits with stable muzzles because you're generally going to be shooting every (paper) target twice. Your target isn't moving, only you are. You shoot them twice and then forget about them.
In the real world, you're moving. Your target is moving. Your target may shoot back. Your target can give up. Your target may have friends with them who might also shoot back, who might also give up.
The benefits are absolutely there in the very controlled environment of a range. I think there are too many moving parts in the real world for there to be any sort of quantifiable advantage to choosing a comp over a flash hider.
I know Ken Hackathorn has said not positive things about people being able to put five rounds into someone's chest in less than half a second, but here's some more diplomatically put advice from Jared Reston:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YMA7Y7aer0
(If you need a comp to get your carbine splits down to 0.3 seconds, you're probably doing something wrong.)
So... because there are debatable effects of putting five rounds into a chest cavity very quickly, its ok having a rifle that isn't optimized to do so? Wouldn't it be better to have a rifle that made that easier so you at least had the choice? At least, assuming that it didn't come with significant downsides?
And so many people here talk about worst case scenarios all the time. Like "my gun has to have at least two, if not three sighting systems because anything can fail." Or training with support hand in case your strong hand is injured. But no one thinks that anything could happen in a real defensive situation that would throw off your ability to control recoil? Really? Seems like if your strong hand is shot and you go weak hand only on an AR because its just that shitty of a day, maybe a comp would help. Its easy to what-if shit all day. I just feel like the downsides are dramatically overplayed.
I absolutely view all of my ARs as defensive tools but I don't see the comp being a major liability there. Offensive tool, sure. Don't need fireballs when you're in a SBF at night or the extra concussion when your taking down buildings with team mates. But all of my rifles are more likely to see static range time, classes, or competition, much more often than defensive shootings and since I don't believe there are any significant cons affecting what I believe a likely defensive shooting will be, I don't mind gearing them for the more likely scenarios. Also, I would love "more realistic" training, assuming you mean night courses or CQB stuff. But its harder to find.
So... because there are debatable effects of putting five rounds into a chest cavity very quickly, its ok having a rifle that isn't optimized to do so? Wouldn't it be better to have a rifle that made that easier so you at least had the choice? At least, assuming that it didn't come with significant downsides?
And so many people here talk about worst case scenarios all the time. Like "my gun has to have at least two, if not three sighting systems because anything can fail." Or training with support hand in case your strong hand is injured. But no one thinks that anything could happen in a real defensive situation that would throw off your ability to control recoil? Really? Seems like if your strong hand is shot and you go weak hand only on an AR because its just that shitty of a day, maybe a comp would help. Its easy to what-if shit all day. I just feel like the downsides are dramatically overplayed.
Optimized. Optimized. Do you really want a rifle that is optimized?
Because if we take that word for it’s value, you’re not choosing your gun. You’re likely choosing a rifle length 18” rifle, with a proprietary gas system tuned to barely function with .223 rounds, a proprietary buffer system, fixed stock, low mass bolt carrier, and a huge muzzle brake.
That’s how you “optimize”.
Your guns are more likely to be stolen than used in a defensive situation, so why own them at all other than joy?
If joy is your concern, which it seems it is, why not just go baller gamer gun? After all, you said it’s unlikely to be used and that configuration means it’s “optimized”.
The same can be said of your CCW, you’re probably never going to use it. Why carry at all? Or why not carry a tiny pocket gun? Truth is we are PLANNING for the worst case scenario.
That leap seems hard for you to make. You think training is a good idea. You probably also think a CCW is a good idea. Obviously you think having guns is a good idea. But you’re not planning for the possibility of having to use one. Because if you were, you wouldn’t say some of the things you do.
Yourself, you have said you’ve had little lowlight shooting. You’ve had little realistic training. Do you think, it’s possible, that since those that have are suggesting they don’t choose a comp, they have learned a thing or two in the way that you haven’t?
You’re also seeing many suggesting they have game and range guns and a separate defensive gun.
You think people are overstating the negatives of a comp, but you’ve never experienced them due to your training. Do you think it’s possible you’re overstating the advantages of a carbine with a comp?
I still haven’t heard how much faster you can maintain acceptable hits with your comp than without it.
Additionally, have you considered that you may not be able to make a life and death decision as quickly as you can pull the trigger?
Have you considered that you may get to explain to the jury that you put five rounds in the heart without reassessing the threat to your life? “Mr Wake, you fired two rounds into this man’s chest in 0.20s, what indication did you have that said perp was still a threat in the 0.2s between when you fired shot three which also struck the man in the heart? You didn’t assess the situation, did you? You intended to kill this man, didn’t you, Mr. Wake? You’re a murderer with your assault weapon! You even had it modified to kill faster!”
Granted, having the comp doesn’t mean you can’t slow down, but it also negates the perceived benefit as well, doesn’t it?
I’m not suggesting you change your rifle to be PC or hurry friendly, but rather understand the things that will be thrown at you as well as to question how much an advantage that comp may be in the real world off the square, static range.
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See below.
Optimized. Optimized. Do you really want a rifle that is optimized?
Because if we take that word for it’s value, you’re not choosing your gun. You’re likely choosing a rifle length 18” rifle, with a proprietary gas system tuned to barely function with .223 rounds, a proprietary buffer system, fixed stock, low mass bolt carrier, and a huge muzzle brake.
That’s how you “optimize”. We have very different opinions of optimized. Optimized to me means 2 MOA or better, complete reliability with any factory brass cased .223 round, light, optic, and controls/other enhancements that make the gun easier to shoot as quickly and accurately as possible without detracting from reliability or introducing significant potential disadvantages in a tactical scenario.
Your guns are more likely to be stolen than used in a defensive situation, so why own them at all other than joy?
If joy is your concern, which it seems it is, why not just go baller gamer gun? After all, you said it’s unlikely to be used and that configuration means it’s “optimized”.
The same can be said of your CCW, you’re probably never going to use it. Why carry at all? Or why not carry a tiny pocket gun? Truth is we are PLANNING for the worst case scenario.
That leap seems hard for you to make. You think training is a good idea. You probably also think a CCW is a good idea. Obviously you think having guns is a good idea. But you’re not planning for the possibility of having to use one. Because if you were, you wouldn’t say some of the things you do.
See above. I never want a gun to hold me back. My guns will outshoot me, and that's how I want it, but not at the cost of certain aspects, in case I do have to use them. None of them violate those aspects. Just because you think a hybrid comp suddenly disqualifies a gun from being a defensive tool, doesn't make it gospel bro. I dgaf who you are, there's enough disagreement that it can't be a 100% answer so each person has to choose that for himself.
Yourself, you have said you’ve had little lowlight shooting. You’ve had little realistic training. Do you think, it’s possible, that since those that have are suggesting they don’t choose a comp, they have learned a thing or two in the way that you haven’t?
I think I have stated here that it may just because I don't have a ton of low light shooting.
You’re also seeing many suggesting they have game and range guns and a separate defensive gun.
You think people are overstating the negatives of a comp, but you’ve never experienced them due to your training. Do you think it’s possible you’re overstating the advantages of a carbine with a comp?
I still haven’t heard how much faster you can maintain acceptable hits with your comp than without it.
Well the thread is titled "change my mind" for a reason. I don't have to justify the reason to you, if you want to play the game by posting in the thread, you have to come in with the quantifiable evidence. Which I have yet to see... And, all that being said, I mentioned it physically impossible right now and it won't happen for a while. But apparently you think my lack of commitment adds to your argument so FYI, you haven't seen times because I'm OCONUS at the moment.
Additionally, have you considered that you may not be able to make a life and death decision as quickly as you can pull the trigger?
Sure, but as said above, if I can do something to my gun that'll help ensure my POA is back on target quicker without violating certain principles, why wouldn't I? Just because maybe the trigger doesn't need to be pulled? That's the same logic as not putting a WML on your carry gun because some idiot somewhere used it as a general illum tool and muzzled someone while searching with the WML. It won't automatically turn you into a dumbass.
Have you considered that you may get to explain to the jury that you put five rounds in the heart without reassessing the threat to your life? “Mr Wake, you fired two rounds into this man’s chest in 0.20s, what indication did you have that said perp was still a threat in the 0.2s between when you fired shot three which also struck the man in the heart? You didn’t assess the situation, did you? You intended to kill this man, didn’t you, Mr. Wake? You’re a murderer with your assault weapon! You even had it modified to kill faster!”
What ****ing prosecutor is going to know that you were shooting at .2 splits, much less call you on it? Even still, I'm of the mindset that the first shot shouldn't be fired until you honestly believe that your life is in imminent danger. Once that has been achieved, you shoot until that is no longer the case - I have yet to see where a follow up shot was not only pressed but a deciding factor in a case, unless that shot was ridiculous for one reason or another. But we're not talking about shooting a dude, walking up to him, videoing him bleeding out, and then shooting him again for good measure.
Granted, having the comp doesn’t mean you can’t slow down, but it also negates the perceived benefit as well, doesn’t it?
I’m not suggesting you change your rifle to be PC or hurry friendly, but rather understand the things that will be thrown at you as well as to question how much an advantage that comp may be in the real world off the square, static range.
And all I'm saying, is are we sure that the negatives are that serious, especially give the likely method of employment? Or are we just proliferating mental masturbation because that's the way its always been done?
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@Wake27,
Genuine question: Instead of members arguing for theoretical or perceived pros and cons one way or another why not simply get another upper with a couple of muzzle devices you think might work for you and do a side by side test with your current hybrid device and just decide for yourself?
I have found is that a lot of online/forum reviews are:
- either seriously biased and border on advertisements. (When have you read a review saying a product simply does not work or has a very limited use?) or
- have a perceived placebo affect by people liking it because they bought it and not willing to admit money wasted, and etc. or
- most folks just don't shoot too many variations/different setups and/or have limited experience to give a meaningful comparison advice
I have found it to be very difficult to rely on others opinions for product reviews as well because some people are willing to compromise or overlook some aspects I can't and vice versa.
@Wake27,
Genuine question: Instead of members arguing for theoretical or perceived pros and cons one way or another why not simply get another upper with a couple of muzzle devices you think might work for you and do a side by side test with your current hybrid device and just decide for yourself?
I have found is that a lot of online/forum reviews are:
- either seriously biased and border on advertisements. (When have you read a review saying a product simply does not work or has a very limited use?) or
- have a perceived placebo affect by people liking it because they bought it and not willing to admit money wasted, and etc. or
- most folks just don't shoot too many variations/different setups and/or have limited experience to give a meaningful comparison advice
I have found it to be very difficult to rely on others opinions for product reviews as well because some people are willing to compromise or overlook some aspects I can't and vice versa.
Serious question: how much of the thread have you read?
I think (honest think, not sarcastic asshole think) that I made it clear that this isn't about me. I happily use BCM comps and other hybrid devices on all of my guns. This is about the weekly thread from other members asking what to buy, because many people make any type of comp seem like the worst idea ever in those threads.
Ever heard of security cameras? They are all over these days.
You’re at the gas station and some dude goes to blazing. You light him up, it’s all on video. I have security cameras all over my place. I know that shts making its way into evidence.
The point of taking optimization to the extreme is where we draw the line? As another dude said open guns are better. But where does open guns’ shootability get trumped with practicality.
The comps you mention are not optimization. They are a compromise.
If flash doesn’t matter, why not a full on brake? Where do we want to draw the line on trigger weight? So on and so forth.
Quantifying physiological affects of touching off a round in a structure without hearing protection? We’re all different. I haven’t done it, but I’ve been in an enclosure with three walls when somebody did with no ears. It hurt. I turned away. The concision sucked. Then like I said before, I’ve fired open air without ears in lowlight with the battlecomp. A faster split? Well I had a washed out dot due to the flash.
I don’t have a way to measure concussive forces. I don’t have a way to measure sound. Maybe somebody will chime in who can.
I’ve read flash hider effectiveness numbers but who can prove it? I’ve read that 80% gets reduced with your average three prong. Who knows. There are photos above.
But what I do know is I am not significantly faster with my hybrid comp guns. Certainly, splits with As are faster than I can assess effectiveness.
I do know, having used both, my defensive guns have a FH. My HD gun has a can.
No, it’s not because it’s tradition. Is because I adopted comps in 07 and ran them for three years and learned the flash and concussion indoors was disorienting.
You’re a big boy, if your training has led you to comps, knock yourself out. You wanted convinced, your mind is made up. Enjoy your comp and continue the mental masturbation of the advantages it offers you.
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Who assesses effectiveness between shots? Shoot until the mf’er changes shapes or catches fire. In other words, you’re done when the loser hits the ground.
I guess that leaves us with no quantifiable evidence that the comp is better, just a “feeling” and those that value flash suppression and increased noise over potentially being ready to shoot faster at an undetermined time value.
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I guess that leaves us with no quantifiable evidence that the comp is better, just a “feeling” and those that value flash suppression and increased noise over potentially being ready to shoot faster at an undetermined time value.
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I don’t even like comps. But some of the arguments against them are silly.
I keep an AAC Brakeout (not the 2.0) on my 11.5" only because it accepts my M4-2000 suppressor. That is all it does for me. Other than that, I hate that hybrid comp. It is loud as hell and does not mitigate recoil as far as I can tell. In it's defense, I shoot that rifle suppressed 90% of the time. But I find the AR-15 recoil to be manageable anyhow, especially compared to 3.5" 12 gauge which I shoot more than anything else. I don't run the AAC blackout fh because I like the idea that the extra baffle of the brakeout will protect the suppressor somewhat. I don't run the AAC brake because epstein didn't kill himself. Basically, if I didn't have the suppressor, I think I would just use an A2.
I honestly cannot think of any scenario where I wish I had had a brake or wish I had had a fh. I've shot plenty during classes with no suppressor, just the brakeout, and shot plenty of hogs in the dark with the suppressor. If I had to choose a single one for my application, I'd choose to reduce muzzle flash and accept the minuscule recoil. If anything, I'd try to mitigate recoil with buffers and springs if I HAD to.
FWIW I keep an AAC brake on my 10/22 because 22lr is not percussive at all and the dual baffle really protects my suppressor baffles whenever I do throw it onto the rimfire. (I really should just get a 22 rf suppressor)
MountainRaven
11-06-19, 21:26
So... because there are debatable effects of putting five rounds into a chest cavity very quickly, its ok having a rifle that isn't optimized to do so? Wouldn't it be better to have a rifle that made that easier so you at least had the choice? At least, assuming that it didn't come with significant downsides?
And so many people here talk about worst case scenarios all the time. Like "my gun has to have at least two, if not three sighting systems because anything can fail." Or training with support hand in case your strong hand is injured. But no one thinks that anything could happen in a real defensive situation that would throw off your ability to control recoil? Really? Seems like if your strong hand is shot and you go weak hand only on an AR because its just that shitty of a day, maybe a comp would help. Its easy to what-if shit all day. I just feel like the downsides are dramatically overplayed.
Everything a comp does a brake will do better, except hide flash.
Everything a comp does a flash hider will do better, except control recoil.
You haven't optimized anything. You've compromised it.
Which is fine, everything in configuring a particular AR is a compromise.
Does your AR-15 have a two-round hyperburst? If not, then I don't think you're going to see any real world benefit to a comp or a brake on a 5.56mm carbine.
Since it seems fitting in this thread, I'm putting together a HD build & bought a Wilson Combat Q Comp for it. I almost bought the Forward Controls device. Anyone have any experience with the WC unit?
Since it seems fitting in this thread, I'm putting together a HD build & bought a Wilson Combat Q Comp for it. I almost bought the Forward Controls device. Anyone have any experience with the WC unit?
Not familiar with the Wilson, looked for some reviews, really couldn't find any that weren't essentially product release articles, no head to head reviews.
I watched a video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=qcuxzzYidLw
Showed it only on pistol caliber carbines and the video ended with this line 'it's the ultimate enhancement for the tactical rifle shooting experience.'
Well, there you go.
Seriously, at the price point, looks like it's worth a try.
Are these still pretty legit comparisons?
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ar-15-flash-hider-shootout/
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/556-muzzle-device-shootout/
Has anyone wrung out the hybrib comps in a similar manner?
Everything a comp does a brake will do better, except hide flash.
Everything a comp does a flash hider will do better, except control recoil.
You haven't optimized anything. You've compromised it.
Which is fine, everything in configuring a particular AR is a compromise.
Does your AR-15 have a two-round hyperburst? If not, then I don't think you're going to see any real world benefit to a comp or a brake on a 5.56mm carbine.
Exactly, it’s a compromise like everything else. But it gives me enough of everything I need/want that it’s an optimized compromise IMO. I’ve never noticed fireballs but have noticed improvement in recoil reduction, but at the cost of extra concussion. For my purposes, that’s a worthwhile compromise.
I believe I’ve stated it several times, this isn’t actually for me, it’s for every new thread that pops up about a new gun and a whole bunch of people shoot down the idea of anything but a FH.
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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/861/737/748.gif
grizzlyblake
11-07-19, 09:35
Hybrid comps are the El Camino of the muzzle device world.
And Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.
Not familiar with the Wilson, looked for some reviews, really couldn't find any that weren't essentially product release articles, no head to head reviews.
I watched a video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=qcuxzzYidLw
Showed it only on pistol caliber carbines and the video ended with this line 'it's the ultimate enhancement for the tactical rifle shooting experience.'
Well, there you go.
Seriously, at the price point, looks like it's worth a try.
Yep, that was pretty much my experience researching it. Posts in a couple different forums gave it positive feedback. The design seems more flash hider than comp, which is what I'm looking for. Figured for the $, it was worth a try.
It seems well made. I'll give my more educated 2 cents when the build is finished & I've put some rounds downrange.
Hybrid comps are the El Camino of the muzzle device world.
And Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.
You're dating yourself! How about the Honda Ridgeline?
I have found that I don't really care for comps/brakes that reduce recoil.
I run a Battlecomp and love that there is zero muzzle rise even though the recoil is unchanged.
Outside of some precision applications I'm not entirely sure why you would be concerned with recoil on a 5.56.
I have found that I don't really care for comps/brakes that reduce recoil.
I run a Battlecomp and love that there is zero muzzle rise even though the recoil is unchanged.
Outside of some precision applications I'm not entirely sure why you would be concerned with recoil on a 5.56.
Honestly, the whole recoil vs muzzle rise thing is something I just don’t feel like going into. Anywhere I say recoil, I just mean the dot has more movement. So probably muzzle rise vs true recoil, but I assumed most people knew what I meant.
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So you admit to not knowing what you don't know, starting this thread to recommend your choice rather than debate the merits, and dismiss anyone with actual experience of the negatives of comps.
No wonder the number of SME's contributing here has diminished so much.
To anyone else:
Stick to a flash hider until you can both quantify the advantages of a comp, and have experience to judge the negatives.
Get a basic but quality setup, then chase training and not equipment to improve your skills.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/861/737/748.gif
FYI, a comp would have improved your split times on those follow up whacks. :D
MountainRaven
11-07-19, 22:07
FYI, a comp would have improved your split times on those follow up whacks. :D
Not as much as a brake, though.
:jester:
So you admit to not knowing what you don't know, starting this thread to recommend your choice rather than debate the merits, and dismiss anyone with actual experience of the negatives of comps.
No wonder the number of SME's contributing here has diminished so much.
To anyone else:
Stick to a flash hider until you can both quantify the advantages of a comp, and have experience to judge the negatives.
Get a basic but quality setup, then chase training and not equipment to improve your skills.
Holy ****, some of you suck at reading comprehension. I feel like I've said this in every other post but the whole point of this thread is to see if there are legit arguments against the following statement:
Most people rarely shoot at night or in confined spaces with other people, therefore, a device other than a flash hider is worth the consideration.
Your own point of "chasing training" is exactly the problem. The extra $80 they could've spent on a more well-rounded MD isn't going to do next to nothing for training. That's like half the cost of a basic one day course.
Most of us “optimize” our carbines for a potential defensive situation, despite training mostly during the day.
It’s a type 1 vs type 2 error.
Why do we shoot? Why do we train?
To look good on the gram? To look good in class? To win competitions?
Do we want our carbines set up to be good for training? Or good for fighting?
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Most of us “optimize” our carbines for a potential defensive situation, despite training mostly during the day.
It’s a type 1 vs type 2 error.
Why do we shoot? Why do we train?
To look good on the gram? To look good in class? To win competitions?
Do we want our carbines set up to be good for training? Or good for fighting?
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Well then I guess if the muzzle flash from a BCM comp blinds me and I get kilt in da streetz you can say that you told me so.
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Well then I guess if the muzzle flash from a BCM comp blinds me and I get kilt in da streetz you can say that you told me so.
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You know I didn’t say or imply that. But in your vein I guess I could say, when the recoil of the mighty 5.56 destroys my shoulder and I can’t get rounds off quickly enough to win the fight and I’m kilt in da streetz I’ll wish I had the comp that sucked at flash control and sucked at compensation. Only then would I have survived.
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vicious_cb
11-08-19, 09:53
You know I didn’t say or imply that. But in your vein I guess I could say, when the recoil of the mighty 5.56 destroys my shoulder and I can’t get rounds off quickly enough to win the fight and I’m kilt in da streetz I’ll wish I had the comp that sucked at flash control and sucked at compensation. Only then would I have survived.
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I've went through all 17 pages of this thread and I still don't understand the point of it. If you can't make the executive decision to find the balance of flash and blast vs muzzle control then you probably should just stick with an A2 and focus on putting more rounds through your gun until you can get to the point where mechanical advantage would be decernable to you.
Well there is some data out there from people who have done testing. Let’s look at the numbers from the truth about guns.
Recoil reduction is based off of a bare muzzle. Lux rating off of a bare muzzle is over 10K
A2 Flash hider
Recoil Reduction: 8.08%
Lux: 0.48
BCM Comp
Recoil Reduction: 33.08%
Lux: 0.60
Griffin Armament Flash Comp
Recoil Reduction: 52.49%
Lux: 1.36
KAC MAMS
Recoil Reduction: 52.76%
Lux: 1.87
BattleComp 2.0
Recoil reduction: 55.68%
Lux: 1.41
It looks like the BCM is much closer to the A2 as far as flash hiding performance but offers better recoil reduction.
Any numbers for the higher quality flash hiders?
Also, aren’t lux a function or lumens, which are exponent?
That would be to say, that .48 v .60 lux isn’t simply 25% brighter?
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Lux for the AAC blackout and the Smith vortex are .35 and .37 respectively, no numbers on recoil reduction but im assuming it’ll be close to the A2 if not less.
Any numbers for the higher quality flash hiders?
Also, aren’t lux a function or lumens, which are exponent?
That would be to say, that .48 v .60 lux isn’t simply 25% brighter?
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Outlander Systems
11-08-19, 17:10
Literally the last time I shot a gun was in the dark, and the fireball from the muzzle was awe inspiring. Brakes belong under suppressors. Change my mind.
I've noticed people pushing flash hiders pretty hard lately, and I can't figure out a good reason why. Hybrid devices such as the BCM comp, WarComp, and to a lesser extent Battle Comp, are superior for a GP rifle, not a flash hider. Here's why: most people don't shoot in the dark, and if they do, its pretty rare. Also, if they do, its even more rare that they're in a contested environment where bad guys would shoot back at them without signature reduction. Any level of recoil reduction will be far more beneficial than flash suppression in the majority of circumstances. Hybrid comps provide some level of recoil reduction without producing an obnoxious fireball and concussion like dedicated brakes. And while they are more blasty to stand next to, they're rarely of significant inconvenience.
contax_shooter
11-08-19, 17:44
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49035156738_b0ca8cf19b_b.jpg
Comps/brakes without a can quickly diminish the output of your devices.
No thanks.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49035156738_b0ca8cf19b_b.jpg
Comps/brakes without a can quickly diminish the output of your devices.
No thanks.
You’re not wrong.
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Any numbers for the higher quality flash hiders?
Also, aren’t lux a function or lumens, which are exponent?
That would be to say, that .48 v .60 lux isn’t simply 25% brighter?
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https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ar-15-flash-hider-shootout/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ar-15-flash-hiding-test-2/amp/
I've went through all 17 pages of this thread and I still don't understand the point of it. If you can't make the executive decision to find the balance of flash and blast vs muzzle control then you probably should just stick with an A2 and focus on putting more rounds through your gun until you can get to the point where mechanical advantage would be decernable to you.
Very good point...
Any numbers for the higher quality flash hiders?
Also, aren’t lux a function or lumens, which are exponent?
That would be to say, that .48 v .60 lux isn’t simply 25% brighter?
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In addition to the links provided above, this may be useful:
https://vuurwapenblog.com/reviews/ar-15-muzzle-device-comparison/
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ar-15-flash-hider-shootout/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ar-15-flash-hiding-test-2/amp/
It's almost uncanny how little flash is put out by the JP Enterprises flash hider.
TexasAggie2005
11-09-19, 16:04
It's almost uncanny how little flash is put out by the JP Enterprises flash hider.
Well yeah, they copied BE Meyer's 249F internally serrated tines.
edit: I did not remember correctly.
This thing was advertised over at TOS. I wonder if it really does what they say? If it did, it would definitely be interesting.
https://revelation2010.com/collections/frontpage/products/ar15-zero-flash-muzzle-brake
Well yeah, they copied BE Meyer's 249F internally serrated tines, and were sued for it if I remember correctly.
In a comparison by thetruthaboutguns,com - https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ar-15-flash-hider-shootout/ - they said that JP Enterprises agreed to stop production because they agreed it did infringe on the 249F. Yet I still see them advertised.
What is really confusing to me is that the drawing on the installation instructions (follow link at bottom of this page https://www.jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPFH-556L) shows scallops on the ends of the tines and the inner serrations, yet their advertising pictures show the a different device - refer to the page I linked above and everyplace on the internet.
Anyone know whats up?
Interesting discussion. If I had the option, I'd go FH. For someone who lives in a ban state, where an FH is verboten, what would be the next best thing?
I am curious as to why the Russian's chose more of a hybrid type comp muzzle devices on their newest AK assault rifles. I guess they don't put flash suppression as high as a priority as we do, and are willing to compromise some to get the benefits of a comp. I guess as with most things, not all hyrid comps are created equal.
I am curious as to why the Russian's chose more of a hybrid type comp muzzle devices on their newest AK assault rifles. I guess they don't put flash suppression as high as a priority as we do, and are willing to compromise *some* to get the benefits of a comp. I guess as with most things, not all hyrid comps are created equal.
I suspect that it has to do with automatic fire.
WRT to FH like the JP, the Smith Vortex, and similar designs: that design tends to produce FH that are the absolute best at flash suppression, one of the few designs that surpass the plain old bird cage.
Even though these designs are a bit better than the A2 at flash suppression, I've avoided them because the ones I tried had the unfortunate side effect of kicking up more dust when shooting prone. In the end, I prefer designs that do flash suppression at least as well as the A2, AND offer additional capability beyond it. An example on the budget end would be the YHM Phantom, for $23, which actually does flash suppression slightly better than the A2. In the mid-range for $50, as stated earlier I prefer the FCD 6315, which does flash suppression as well as the A2, but gives noticeably better muzzle rise compensation--and without any added blast or noise. At the high end, I've never tried a high end dedicated FH but if I did, it would be the White Sound Fossa, which appears on paper and in published tests, to be the closest thing to a well-balanced, multi-purpose device that would appeal to me.
Took a low light pistol class today and brought two of the rifles in case there was free time at the end. Super unscientific because they were different rifles and all I was doing was trying to catch fireballs. KAC 3 prong on a Mod 2 carbine upper had very minimal flash. The BCM comp had more, but to me as the shooter, it was barely noticeable. The only time I actually saw it was on the last two rounds with the FM .223, and I wasn't using my light or aiming at a real target. This is anecdotal, but I shot my RS for the class which obviously has the KKM comp, and I never noticed a flash while firing. My guess is that the fact that I wasn't trying to see it was part of that, so if I was in a real shooting or even just taking a class, I probably wouldn't have noticed the flash. This would be even more true if using the WML. I'm not going to waste the time editing, but I can throw up some videos. I used an older GoPro on my hat and had someone film me with an iPhone X.
I'd still be interested in seeing the video.
This is the playlist of the videos from my phone. The GoPro footage definitely shows more flash so I'll get them up in a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZEwSYf2r2bRgSH_SENtsy_s_3vyZW15B
ETA - GoPro footage should be in there too now. Like I said, super unscientific but I expected more flash from the comp and was pleasantly surprised when I didn't notice it.
Nice video.
NVG’s involved? One thing that occurred to me is potential of flash interfering with night vision. I have zero experience and knowledge on that topic. Is that a thing?
Shot night earlier tonight with white light with two buddies. No visible flash (flashlight obscures it, to a degree) from 2 A2’s and a 3 prong on barrels of varying lengths. Of interest, the smoke had a significant effect on follow up shots if not moving. Different ammo might change that, or maybe it was something to do with the weather, but it was like shooting muskets. 1st shot totally obscured the target if I didn’t move or change positions.
The muzzle flash from our G19s was big and bright, even with a Surefire U Boat, but had no effect on ability to bang steel.
Shooting before the sun was all the way down with no flashlights, the muzzle flash with A2’s was visible from the side, but not bad. Not visible to the shooter. 3 prong had no visible flash to anyone.
We had fun; not sure if this adds any value to this conversation.
Nice video.
NVG’s involved? One thing that occurred to me is potential of flash interfering with night vision. I have zero experience and knowledge on that topic. Is that a thing?
No nods, this was just blasting at the backstop for the sole purpose of capturing muzzle flash. I have limited live fire time with nods and it’s all been with an A2 FH. I don’t remember noticing anything though.
Shot night earlier tonight with white light with two buddies. No visible flash (flashlight obscures it, to a degree) from 2 A2’s and a 3 prong on barrels of varying lengths. Of interest, the smoke had a significant effect on follow up shots if not moving. Different ammo might change that, or maybe it was something to do with the weather, but it was like shooting muskets. 1st shot totally obscured the target if I didn’t move or change positions.
The muzzle flash from our G19s was big and bright, even with a Surefire U Boat, but had no effect on ability to bang steel.
Shooting before the sun was all the way down with no flashlights, the muzzle flash with A2’s was visible from the side, but not bad. Not visible to the shooter. 3 prong had no visible flash to anyone.
We had fun; not sure if this adds any value to this conversation.
I don’t know how much weather plays a role, but I was very surprised that my RS didn’t produce more smoke. It looked like the other guy’s P365 had a lot more, but he was shooting some type of steel case and I was shooting Lawman so I’m sure that’s why.
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No nods, this was just blasting at the backstop for the sole purpose of capturing muzzle flash. I have limited live fire time with nods and it’s all been with an A2 FH. I don’t remember noticing anything though.
I don’t know how much weather plays a role, but I was very surprised that my RS didn’t produce more smoke. It looked like the other guy’s P365 had a lot more, but he was shooting some type of steel case and I was shooting Lawman so I’m sure that’s why.
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Yeah, I don’t know that weather really plays any role other than being in the woodline on a windless night. It was probably just the ammo, but there was noticeably more smoke than I normally get, and it wasn’t dissipating.
I've had weather obstruct clear vision in the early daytime. I'm sure it could at night as well. The instance I'm talking about was from the 300 meter line on a course of fire I've shot plenty of times on a range I've been to a dozen other times with the same setup. It was shortly after daybreak, extremely humid, and firing created a sort of fog. POI for my irons and ACOG shifted from center to the far right of a 19" wide target. Possibly from foggy eye pro, but my groups remained reasonably tight. 30 minutes later the sun had burned much of the humidity off and firing from 400 didn't create any issues.
MountainRaven
11-11-19, 12:23
Nice video.
NVG’s involved? One thing that occurred to me is potential of flash interfering with night vision. I have zero experience and knowledge on that topic. Is that a thing?
I've been doing research, looking at getting into the NODs game, and yesterday watched a video on configuring a rifle for use with NODs that Aaron Cowan did about a year ago: In it, he says the best muzzle device to use with NODs is a silencer. The next best device is a flashhider. If you can't have those legally, then the least obnoxious comp. And the shorter the barrel, the more important the muzzle device is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGKWzsC-Y4
Comps/brakes without a can quickly diminish the output of your devices.
No thanks.
Not only that, but I couldn't imagine having to use one in a confined space (especially the dual chamber SF brake).. unless, of course, clearing your sinuses is a primary goal.
I wish BCM had offered a pinned Surefire closed tine flash hider when I purchased this upper a few years ago, instead of the SF brake.
https://i.imgur.com/fOHbFOT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JdSOMkH.jpg
It offers the best recoil reduction by far compared to the other muzzle devices I own, but it's obnoxiously loud and throws fire balls a few feet in any direction. In short, not worth it unless used as a sacrificial baffle for suppressed use. The only other muzzle device I've used that is more obnoxious from a sound signature perspective is the Battle Comp.
Even though they come with their own issues, I've really come to appreciate suppressors for most of my needs.
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I've been doing research, looking at getting into the NODs game, and yesterday watched a video on configuring a rifle for use with NODs that Aaron Cowan did about a year ago: In it, he says the best muzzle device to use with NODs is a silencer. The next best device is a flashhider. If you can't have those legally, then the least obnoxious comp. And the shorter the barrel, the more important the muzzle device is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foGKWzsC-Y4
I’m not claiming to be more of an expert than Cowan, but I’ve not had an issue with NODs on a 14.5 with A2. Shorter than that by much, then yeah, a silencer is more appropriate. Of course, 10.3” + 6.5” -.6”= 16.2”, so there’s that.
Not only that, but I couldn't imagine having to use one in a confined space (especially the dual chamber SF brake).. unless, of course, clearing your sinuses is a primary goal.
I wish BCM had offered a pinned Surefire closed tine flash hider when I purchased this upper a few years ago, instead of the SF brake.
https://i.imgur.com/fOHbFOT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JdSOMkH.jpg
It offers the best recoil reduction by far compared to the other muzzle devices I own, but it's obnoxiously loud and throws fire balls a few feet in any direction. In short, not worth it unless used as a sacrificial baffle for suppressed use. The only other muzzle device I've used that is more obnoxious from a sound signature perspective is the Battle Comp.
Even though they come with their own issues, I've really come to appreciate suppressors for most of my needs.
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Yeah that’s a beast. 14.5 upper? And do you easily notice that flash? Like I said a few posts back, I only saw it when looking for it, but that was very limited “testing” and definitely not the SF brake.
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I agree with Rogue556. As I mentioned previously, my P&W 14" wears a SF brake as a sacrificial baffle. Without the can, it is sometimes almost unpleasant to shoot. I can't imagine indoors with no ear pro. I've ripped off 5 shot strings unto IDPA targets for kicks before, and it is excellent for keeping the dot still, but I'm considering either getting a Blast Warden or having a smith replace it with a WarComp.
Back to the original premise of the thread. I think I'm in agreement with the point, just not the chosen MD. I feel the BCM comp offers too much blast and too little flash suppression compared to other choices on the market. Surefire, FCD, and Precision Armament come to mind as better choices (at least to me), but I'm probably getting into biases at this point.
Yeah that’s a beast. 14.5 upper? And do you easily notice that flash? Like I said a few posts back, I only saw it when looking for it, but that was very limited “testing” and definitely not the SF brake.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's a 14.5" midlength. Honestly, if it's outdoors in relatively bright conditions then it's not too bad. I may get a small flash once or twice per magazine, but nothing most folks would notice I imagine. In less bright conditions (cloudy/overcast, dusk, dawn, etc) the flash is much more noticeable. Those photos were taken roughly two hours before sun set running M855.
I've used the BCM comp before as well, and from my limited experience it doesn't seem to throw fireballs quite like the SF brake does, and isn't as obnoxious as the SF brake or Battle Comp are with noise. I will say the SF seems to keep the rifle flater while the Battle Comp likes to dip the muzzle downward, making for an odd recoil impulse. I don't recall the BCM doing that, but I may have simply not noticed it.
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I don’t get wrapped up over muzzle devices. Were it not for the fact that I typically shoot suppressors, I would probably use an A2 flash hider. These are 5.56mm rifles; not exactly a lot of recoil. The blast of a muzzle brake or hybrid brake/hider is more annoying to me than the extra recoil from a traditional brake. It’s nice to have choices.
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