View Full Version : Testing bullets on limbs?
As we know bullets (talking about lower speed lead from pistols and shotguns) often strike combatants in the arms and hands.
Has anyone ever tested the effect?
We know pistol velocity stretch cavities dont mean anything on most tissues, but they do when they exceed the capability of the mass struck to contain it.
Not a scientist but you know what I mean. A pistol stretch cavity doesn't mean much against a human torso but can grenade a rabbit. So what about human limbs?
I realize it would be a little difficult with synthetic substances trying to replicate skin, muscle, and bone. Perhaps shooting something like raw meat with skin on a bone? Like a deer leg? Of course there be a hoof and no hand.
Just curious what the difference would be between say, a 147 gr Gold Dot and a 127 gr Ranger T? Or .40 FMJ vs a 155 gr JHP? Or 00 buck vs 9mm jhp? .38 special HST vs .357 125 gr Golden Saber from a snub revolver?
Just a thought.
I have seen a number of GSWs to extremities from pistols, various bullets and calibers. They mostly look the same from the outside, ranging from mildly interesting to completely unremarkable round entrance and exit wounds. Often, depending on how it happened, there is more visible damage from burns and stippling than the entrance or exit itself. The interesting stuff is inside the wound, in the healing afterward, and what the bullet looks like if can be recovered.
People get shot in the hands and arms all the time. For two reasons. First, it's natural to cover your vitals with your hands and arms if someone is shooting at you. Second, if someone is pointing a weapon at you, studies have shown it's one's natural instinct to try and shoot the weapon. This works out in many cases because the weapon just so happens to be in front of their vitals, so it looks like the shooter was aiming for either the chest or head, when in fact, they got tunnel vision and aimed for the gun itself. As you might expect, lots of bullets hit the hands and arms. That is the rationale behind training to operate a gun one handed.
Bullets that do well against the windshield glass test do well against heavy bone.
I've seen a good amount of GSW to the hands, arms, and legs. Like ST1911 started they are usually nothing remarkable. Caliber size holes.
A couple things that do change things up are contact range shots and hitting bones (especially in the hand and lower forearm). Contact shots adds muzzle blast to the wounds. From my experience on "meatier" parts of the body you'll get some markings on the skin, slight burns, and a slightly bigger entrance wound. On the hand though, I've seen the muzzle blast leave significantly bigger wounds. I believe it's because the hand is much smaller and can't absorb the blast as well. Also all the bone fragments add to the damage.
Had one guy accidentally shoot himself in the hand with a really nice special edition Vietnam commemorative 1911 that he assumed wasn't kept loaded because it was in a display case. Federal Hydrashock went through his hand at the thick point at the base of the thumb. Bullet expanded decently and hit the side of his fridge and ended up in the shelf after going through a glass milk jar. For about a 10 inch radius around hole in the side of the fridge the were about a dozen bone fragments embedded in the aluminum skin of the fridge.
Bullets hitting the bones of the forearm can definitely create a mor substantial exit wound. I've not seen that though in the upper part of the forearm, I assume because the arm is normally thicker up there. Same with the humerous bone of the upper arm. Whether that's from the upper arm being generally thicker or the bone being stronger, or both, I'm not sure. Thinking about it I've also seen substantially more people shot in the lower arm and hands, than I have seen shot in the upper arm.
https://youtu.be/KPxQsP7_ZQw
Fast forward to 4:00 for pictures of the wound. The woman nearly lost her leg because of inept emergency room care.
Fast forward to 4:00 for pictures of the wound. The woman nearly lost her leg because of inept emergency room care.
Inept? I dunno, man. Getting shot is super bad for your health.
Inept? I dunno, man. Getting shot is super bad for your health.
She should not have been released after only three hours of care. Steps should have been taken to releave the fluid build up in her leg, but instead they sent her home.
vicious_cb
11-04-19, 19:26
We know pistol velocity stretch cavities dont mean anything on most tissues, but they do when they exceed the capability of the mass struck to contain it.
Not a scientist but you know what I mean. A pistol stretch cavity doesn't mean much against a human torso but can grenade a rabbit. So what about human limbs?
No, pistol rounds dont blow peoples limbs off. Not even if its a .45 cal.
No, pistol rounds dont blow peoples limbs off. Not even if its a .45 cal.
I was told 10mm does this. The person was serious, too.
Bullets do weird stuff- usually less dramatic than expected. I saw someone shoot a rabbit with a 308 and it left pinholes.
It did die upon impact.
No, pistol rounds dont blow peoples limbs off. Not even if its a .45 cal.
Not off, but a hit to bones in the forearm (radius, ulna) may do enough damage to keep a hand from working at all, I'm guessing.
That's what I'd like to see research about. Does a hit to that area with a FMJ .380 do much less damage than a JHP 124 gr +p 9mm?
I was told 10mm does this. The person was serious, too.
Bullets do weird stuff- usually less dramatic than expected. I saw someone shoot a rabbit with a 308 and it left pinholes.
It did die upon impact.
One of the weirdest results I ever got messing around with mud testing was with .308. Silver Bear .308 JSP 140 or 145 gr from a G3 clone.
I fired three rounds at about 25 yds into a small box filled with damp dirt. (not quite mud) The box was only about 16" x 12" x 5" thick. (might have been a box cat litter comes in) I expected a blast of dirt out of the top and spray out of the back. Nope! Nothing! And the bullets didn't even go through the box! I would have thought I'd missed if not for the three holes in the face of the box. When I dug I found small pieces of lead and jacket. The bullets didn't expand I don't think, they simply came apart as if they were made of ice. So weird. I would have expected solid bullets from a .22 rifle to have got through but here .308 did not.
I have seen a number of GSWs to extremities from pistols, various bullets and calibers. They mostly look the same from the outside, ranging from mildly interesting to completely unremarkable round entrance and exit wounds. Often, depending on how it happened, there is more visible damage from burns and stippling than the entrance or exit itself. The interesting stuff is inside the wound, in the healing afterward, and what the bullet looks like if can be recovered.
Most interesting I've personally seen was a g2 RIP to the arm. It did exactly what its advertised to do.
Most interesting I've personally seen was a g2 RIP to the arm. It did exactly what its advertised to do.
How much did the trocars penetrate?
How much did the trocars penetrate?
It was a .380, several stayed inside, several went several inches to exit.
It actually looked like it did 100% what it does in their clear gel promotionals.
The exits looked like pin-pricks. At first I thought they were just spots where blood had dried, but when I cleaned them up, they bled. Xray showed the tale of the remaining trochars and tipped me off to what had occurred.
No, pistol rounds dont blow peoples limbs off. Not even if its a .45 cal.
I have a S&W 329PD that when shot with heavy hard cast feels like you blew your own hand off...
The perils of shooting a 44mag revolver that weighs what a G19 weighs...
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