View Full Version : I want to become a good shooter
Hey guys, first, I really appreciate your insight and opinions here, thank you.
I have a glock 19 and an m&p 9mm. I appreciate the ergos more on the m&p but the glock I can adapt to for the most part. I shoot the m&p more accurately overall and it is easier to shoot better. With the glock it feels like I am putting together steps for a process to be carried out. The m&p naturally allows me to focus on sights and trigger and driving the gun with good follow through. The glock just isn't as natural is what I guess I am saying.
I want to have the ability to shoot whatever is in my hand. If I continue with just the m&p and grow in proficiency with it, will that increase my ability with the glock as time goes on?
I ask this because the glock is the most common handgun all around especially law enforcement/shtf scenario. Or is the m&p the "new" glock in this time?
Thanks guys.
Business_Casual
11-02-19, 20:28
Go train with a tier 1 instructor.
arbninftry
11-02-19, 20:35
Go train with a tier 1 instructor.
This, above
Also, continue taking more classes, and not with the fudd from your local range. Also a mandatory CCW class is not a class, it is minimal requirements for a CCW. It is not going to teach you proficiency.
pointblank4445
11-02-19, 20:40
Just pick one and stick with it. I'll admit to pissing away too much of my time playing around with different guns/disciplines rather than getting better.
1) Find a credible instructor that will help with mechanics. Not a fantasy gun camp guy or someone that's going to put you through a training grinder without feedback. Ernest Langdon is a good example. Be a sponge and take good notes
2) Apply what you have learned and develop some practice/training outlines off the above. This may only be dry-fire in your home.
2a) Try competing...even in small stuff and see what areas need work. Address these areas in daily regimine
3) Self-evaluate (run "tests" or drills with metrics and see where you stand. Diagnose areas that need correction and seek out further instruction.
4) Intermediate instruction - Find instructor that can diagnose minor mechanical issues/inefficiences of intermediate/advanced shooters
Repeat all the above.
If you shoot the M&P better, go with it.
And yes, as you grow as a shooter, the Glock will become easier.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191103/bf19dc81cf5c182178cbe7d5c3013773.jpg
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
One tool that has been helpful outside of instructor training is the use of a MantisX https://mantisx.com/
Let’s you see how you shots are breaking and you can see how you progress. This is just another tool in the toolbox when you are doing dry fire training although it can be used in live fire too.
Not a substitute for training but rather in addition too.
"Becoming a good shooter" is not going to happen without specific direction. People's perception and reference standards vary. I've seen enough people who think highly of their skills and who I personally think aren't anything shooting-wise. You need to define what "good shooter" means for you; you, me, or others who posted in this thread may have different views on that. You need to define that in quantifiable terms, set up specific performance goals, identify people who have achieved or exceeded these goals, and learn from them. If you don't define specific performance goals, everything that you've been told here will be just a general exercise without any direction.
Things like recoil control, shoot calling, overall gun handling will transfer from M&P to Glock. However, Glock trigger is Glock trigger so if you want to be good with a Glock, you have to shoot a Glock.
Hey guys, first, I really appreciate your insight and opinions here, thank you.
I have a glock 19 and an m&p 9mm. I appreciate the ergos more on the m&p but the glock I can adapt to for the most part. I shoot the m&p more accurately overall and it is easier to shoot better. With the glock it feels like I am putting together steps for a process to be carried out. The m&p naturally allows me to focus on sights and trigger and driving the gun with good follow through. The glock just isn't as natural is what I guess I am saying.
I want to have the ability to shoot whatever is in my hand. If I continue with just the m&p and grow in proficiency with it, will that increase my ability with the glock as time goes on?
I ask this because the glock is the most common handgun all around especially law enforcement/shtf scenario. Or is the m&p the "new" glock in this time?
Thanks guys.
Skills transfer. Based on your post, the gun probably wont matter. Shooting one better could just be hiding flaws that you’ll need to eventually address, so just do it now. I would suggest training with the glock since its harder for you.
Dry fire every day: trigger control, draws, reloads, target transitions, and moving while maintaining muzzle awareness.
Learn to smash a trigger and not move the sights.
If getting good quick is higher priority than money, take a class with a good shooter/teacher. Someone like JJ Racazza or Ben Stoeger would probably be great. Take lots of notes.
I would suggest doing some USPSA or similar matches to get used to moving with the gun. Have someone video-record you and analyze the vids to knock out the low hanging fruit... once you hit a roadblock, then take a class.
If you are completely new, maybe take a basic class with a lower level instructor first.
While I absolutely second training with good instruction, there are some good videos out there that can help develop some skills in the meantime. While I could pick up most anything and punch pretty decent groups on a piece of paper, I didn't have a lot of practical skills. I ran into the Lucky Gunner "Start Shooting Better" series on Youtube, and that was my intro to some guidance on improving my skills. Some of the things they do there can help. The most recent was "how to practice" where Ernest Langdon gives some really good pointers on how to start a practice regimen. I found I was focused on a lot of the wrong thing, a lot of my shooting went from intermediate distances (10-25 yards) to the 3-7 yard distance, and getting more speed and efficiency. By the time I took my first "formal" training a couple months ago, I got some pretty nice compliments from instructors.
I continue to work those drills. I trained with another company here recently, although they were a bit farther away. I'm really on the hunt for a trainer to fit as someone I can regularly train with to identify consistent issues.
If it was me, I'd stick with what you shoot best, at least for a time. Get where you're comfortable with it, shoot it well. Then switch, and shoot the Glock exclusively until you're there with it, too.
Dry fire, dry fire and dry fire some more. You need to be able to pull the trigger without manipulating the sights.
Get training. No high speed running around shooting at steel targets from under cards. Basics. Hammer that shit home.
OP, No idea where you are located, but suggestions cane be given for specific locations and instructors. In the SE, Frank Proctor comes to mind, Pat McNamara of TMACinc. Check websites for schedules and locations for traveling instructors. Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics is also in the SE USA. There are others in Texas and West across the South West. LAV, Larry Vickers travels and also teaches in the South. Jeff Gonzales is in Austin, Texas
Of these men I have mentioned, Frank Proctor teaches how to be fast and accurate as he competes and wants to run faster always, if this is what you are looking for.
Move and Shoot, A LOT is Pat Mac. Pistol or carbine, he teaches both. Matt from Victory First travels, Kyle Defoor. Ronin Tactics. To name a few. Paul Howe in East Texas
Let me know where Proctor competes so I can look at his results. His USPSA membership number doesn't exist in the classification lookup database.
Go train with a tier 1 instructor.
The above.
Hey guys, first, I really appreciate your insight and opinions here, thank you.
I have a glock 19 and an m&p 9mm. I appreciate the ergos more on the m&p but the glock I can adapt to for the most part. I shoot the m&p more accurately overall and it is easier to shoot better. With the glock it feels like I am putting together steps for a process to be carried out. The m&p naturally allows me to focus on sights and trigger and driving the gun with good follow through. The glock just isn't as natural is what I guess I am saying.
I want to have the ability to shoot whatever is in my hand. If I continue with just the m&p and grow in proficiency with it, will that increase my ability with the glock as time goes on?
I ask this because the glock is the most common handgun all around especially law enforcement/shtf scenario. Or is the m&p the "new" glock in this time?
Thanks guys.
Here is some reading material for you to get started. Todd was a wealth of knowledge.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3592-ToddG-for-Beginners
Everyone has there own definition of what is a "good shooter."
There are many different drills, tests, or standards to use as a reference point.
However, in my mind a competent pistol shot should be able to accurately fire any brand, model, caliber handgun, and competently handle the piece.
You don't provide much regarding your training background. If you have none, then strongly consider taking an NRA basic pistol training course. Learning the basic fundamentals of shooting a handgun is key to becoming a competent shooter.
Lastly, I had a friend ask me once, 'how do I become a good shot [with a handgun]? I said buy yourself a quality .22 revolver. He laughed, my response was that some of the best shooters that I have known shot rimfires in addition to centerfire handguns.
P.S. See if there are any Bullseye shooting maches near you. They are typically a great group of people and some of the best shots with a handgun.
In no particular order...
Set a goal, defining what a "good shooter" is and what it looks like for you.
Pick a gun and stick with it until you develop some strong self-awareness and at least conscious competence.
Train with an established, credible instructor.
Practice with others better than yourself, esp if they have some ability to peer coach.
Practice deliberately at all times, including the minor daily admin tasks involving your gun.
Find a local fun-match (USPSA, IDPA, etc) and shoot it.
Assuming "tier 1" means what it usually means around here... The recommendation to train with a "tier 1 instructor" isn't a bad one, but there are a number of very high quality instructors out there worth learning from.
Play airsoft. It's a humbling experience to be on a two-way shooting range. You will learn much that even one-way training won't teach you.
Play airsoft. It's a humbling experience to be on a two-way shooting range. You will learn much that even one-way training won't teach you.
I don't think spray and pray equates to 'good shooter.' Oncwe again we have to go back to 'what does good shooter mean to the OP?'
I had a pretty detailed response written and then deleted it while looking at something else - a pretty common experience for me :)
I have a couple of thoughts on the whole 'Tier 1' instructor thing.
One of the first things I would consider is the instructor to student ratio. If the instructor tries to run the class himself with more than 3 or 4 shooters on the line, you aren't going to get much one-on-one time, if you need it. Likewise, the likelihood of slowing the class to address individual problems is reduced, as it really isn't fair to the other shooters.
Second, really examine the cost to benefit ratio, is it really worth 300.00 to 500.00 a day to say 'I trained with.....' versus a lower priced alternative with more individualized instruction.
Some of the best instruction I have had came from dedicated 'no-names' teaching a system, with everyone operating off the same playbook. I come at it from the LE end of things so I'm talking about The HK International Training Division (now defunct), and the original S&W Academy.
Along those lines, currently my highest recommendation for taking that first step up, would be to attend the Basic/Intermediate Course at the Rogers Shooting School. What you will get is pretty much an instructor at your shoulder for every shot you take, and plenty of feedback. Plus it is a blast. Don't make the mistake I made. I let ego get in the way and registered for Intermediate/Advanced. It was mid-course before I started getting to speed, and I never did get to the front row because of that. (Rogers shoots six lanes, when I went beginning day 2 your were arranged by lane and relay based on the results from the day before. This gives the folks at the rear of the class the opportunity to observe other shooters going through the drills and listen to feedback before shooting the drills/tests themselves. All the instructors were on the same sheet of music, and based on my experience in running a firearms program training over 300 officers a year to shoot, I was impressed with the consistency and quality. I highly recommend the Rogers School.
Philosophy: https://www.rogersshootingschool.com/philosophy.php
Course: https://www.rogersshootingschool.com/classes.php
Although I've never been to Gunsite, they operate on the same process of multiple 'no name' competent instructors teaching from the same book. I have a friend that I shoot local matches with, he is an older man than I, and has shot a 1911 for years. In our game 480 a stage is clean, he was shooting 50% on some stages, maybe less on others. Then he went to Gunsite and took their 250 Pistol Class. Wow! suddenly an 80% shooter which is a significant improvement considering he had some bad habits to break. Based on that, I think you would probably gain from attending a course with them.
Of course there are other similar courses out there using the same cadre of competent no-name instructors teaching from the same playbook concept, these are ones I of which I am most aware.
Another venue might be John McPhee's (Sheriff of Baghdad) Gunfighter University - https://sobtactical.com/what-is-gunfighter-university/ Using coach's view is not a new concept, both of my daughters were competitive swimmers, and their coaches used the process to analyze their strokes.
Anything else I have to say has already been covered by someone else.
Good luck.
Mr. Goodtimes
11-03-19, 19:48
Hey guys, first, I really appreciate your insight and opinions here, thank you.
I have a glock 19 and an m&p 9mm. I appreciate the ergos more on the m&p but the glock I can adapt to for the most part. I shoot the m&p more accurately overall and it is easier to shoot better. With the glock it feels like I am putting together steps for a process to be carried out. The m&p naturally allows me to focus on sights and trigger and driving the gun with good follow through. The glock just isn't as natural is what I guess I am saying.
I want to have the ability to shoot whatever is in my hand. If I continue with just the m&p and grow in proficiency with it, will that increase my ability with the glock as time goes on?
I ask this because the glock is the most common handgun all around especially law enforcement/shtf scenario. Or is the m&p the "new" glock in this time?
Thanks guys.
Practice, practice, practice the fundamentals. The single thing that improved my handgun shooting the most was 25yd slow fire. Practicing the fundamentals and practicing them at 25 yards will do miracles for your pistol game. Dry fire is another big one. Dry fire a little bit every day. Things like mag changes and dry fire can be done at home so when you actually go to the range, trigger control and mag changes are second nature.
Also, everything else you said makes no sense. When people start talking about how "this one points better" or "this one feels better in my hand" I know they don't actually know what the hell they're talking about. Given its a quality pistol, you can learn to shoot anything well, its simply muscle memory. When I picked up an HK P30 it "pointed better" and "felt better in my hand." Now that I've been shooting a G19 for ten years a G19 points better... because muscle memory. Fundamentals are universal, if you understand the fundamentals you can shoot anything well.
The M&P isn't the new Glock, it wasn't when it came out and 10 years later it still isn't, and never will be. Glock has the polymer pistol market pretty much on lockdown, it's the universal standard by which everything else is judged. Some options you could say are "as good" as far as reliability and accuracy go but nothing is as ubiquitous. The Gen 5 Glocks not only represent peak Glock but peak polymer pistol as well.
Let me know where Proctor competes so I can look at his results. His USPSA membership number doesn't exist in the classification lookup database.
Oh really, Never had a reason to look anything up.
In my time as a LEO and Firearms Instructor, I was a good + shooter most days. Somedays I was very good and surprised myself.
When I was teaching I was just good, because I was concentrating on the line, instructing, correcting and safety lookout.
We would have friendly shooting at the end of class and sometimes students actually shot better than me.
THEY always bring it up that they out shot the instructor.
My answer is always, Well, I guess I taught you well and you practiced what you learned.
Be good at pistolcraft, always strive to be better and faster.
2nd place in a gunfight is 1st looser.
Dry firing with an EMPTY GUN, No ammo in the room. From the holster you plan on wearing on the belt mounted to the pants/jeans.
Some say even the shoes/boots you wear.
Learn to grip you gun in the holster right the first time. Draw, marry/join with support hand and push out towards the target.
Trigger control
Use a quarter balanced on the top of slide, then a nickel, penny, last a dime, dry firing without it falling off. Train to not snap or jerk the trigger. Less Sight Upset, Less chance of missing intended target.
This works better on a revolver with a narrow flat rib on the barrel, ie: S&W
https://youtu.be/nES4A0rd1ak
https://youtu.be/lmy5mkjpUNI
Oh really, Never had a reason to look anything up.
I am nosey that way. I compete and work pretty hard on achieving whatever little I can achieve. If an instructor uses their USPSA rank or experience as a part of their sales pitch, I want to know who they actually are in the USPSA world.
Furthermore, if I can't pull their record because their number is gone, it is a red flag for me.
Lucky to have had access to a retired Army Ranger and former LEO who started a business training military and LEO units. From there he branched out and started offering civilian classes and since 2010 it's been anywhere from four to eight or nine classes each year. Great part was he brought in Larry Vickers, Max Joseph, Pat McNamara and several others with options for his best students through private contract courses. One thing I have learned is these top tier trainers have lots of real-world experience and credibility with gun fights. Another point to make is they tend to have strong bonds and friendships. Pretty much all of them agree the best way to survive a gunfight is to avoid them altogether. However, bad things sometimes happen to good people. And under stress you will always revert back to your particular level of training. So practicing fundamentals is a common theme with all these guys. From there each one tends to branch out and focus on different variations on the underlying theme which is to keep yourself and your loved ones safe in the event you ever do face a bad situation. I have done a fair amount of shooting in a bullseye league as well and that has advantages too but with more limitations on many fundamentals such as indoor ranges forbidding draw from holster, movement while shooting, magazine changes and the like. Never got into any of the run-and-gun competitions either because I see more tactical issues than advantages, and probably more potential legal issues with habits ingrained while trying to race against a clock with loaded firearms.
Lucky to have had access to a retired Army Ranger and former LEO who started a business training military and LEO units. From there he branched out and started offering civilian classes and since 2010 it's been anywhere from four to eight or nine classes each year. Great part was he brought in Larry Vickers, Max Joseph, Pat McNamara and several others with options for his best students through private contract courses. One thing I have learned is these top tier trainers have lots of real-world experience and credibility with gun fights. Another point to make is they tend to have strong bonds and friendships. Pretty much all of them agree the best way to survive a gunfight is to avoid them altogether. However, bad things sometimes happen to good people. And under stress you will always revert back to your particular level of training. So practicing fundamentals is a common theme with all these guys. From there each one tends to branch out and focus on different variations on the underlying theme which is to keep yourself and your loved ones safe in the event you ever do face a bad situation. I have done a fair amount of shooting in a bullseye league as well and that has advantages too but with more limitations on many fundamentals such as indoor ranges forbidding draw from holster, movement while shooting, magazine changes and the like. Never got into any of the run-and-gun competitions either because I see more tactical issues than advantages, and probably more potential legal issues with habits ingrained while trying to race against a clock with loaded firearms.
What kind of habits do you think you would pick up?
Things I’ve picked up- how to move with a handgun while maintaining muzzle awareness.
-knowing what I can hit, how fast, when on auto-pilot(shooting wise)
-what my performance is when moving at different speeds(can I walk, run, etc)
Are you also concerned about habits ingrained from bullseye shooting?
just practice with what you shoot the best.
Never got into any of the run-and-gun competitions either because I see more tactical issues than advantages, and probably more potential legal issues with habits ingrained while trying to race against a clock with loaded firearms.
The very folks that you list in your post recommend and have participated in action pistol competitions like IDPA, USPSA, etc. The idea that it will get you "killed in da streetz" is garbage, and debunked.
just practice with what you shoot the best.
No. This will get you killed unless you worship at the altar of Gaston Glock. Four out of five people who carry the M&P get toasted when the gangstas show up. As a previous contributor said, the M&P [and therefore Sig, VP-9, and everything else ever made or to be made] was not, is not, and never will be a Glock. Say: "Just practice with Glock."
No. This will get you killed unless you worship at the altar of Gaston Glock. Four out of five people who carry the M&P get toasted when the gangstas show up. As a previous contributor said, the M&P [and therefore Sig, VP-9, and everything else ever made or to be made] was not, is not, and never will be a Glock. Say: "Just practice with Glock."
If that was tongue-in-cheek, okay.
Otherwise - when was the last time you went to the doctor, because some of your posts lately........
You will get better with all guns when you improve with one, because much of what you learn on grip, recoil Mgt, sight alignment .....will cross pollenate. You will probably be better with your goto gun, but your Glock will pace along.
PB
If you can't shoot and move, or shoot moving, strong hand, weak hand, you are just punching holes in paper. That is the way EARLY LEO Firearms training was.
You have to crawl before you stand and walk. Having an area where you can MOVE and SHOOT is very beneficial.
...I have done a fair amount of shooting in a bullseye league as well and that has advantages too but with more limitations on many fundamentals such as indoor ranges forbidding draw from holster, movement while shooting, magazine changes and the like. Never got into any of the run-and-gun competitions either because I see more tactical issues than advantages, and probably more potential legal issues with habits ingrained while trying to race against a clock with loaded firearms.
Uh...
Do you not see the contradiction here?
OP, go with the M&P. If it's easier for you, take the advantage.
Standardize pistols, parts, and mags. Buy ammo and classes.
Practice what you learn.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-10-19, 18:28
Train with someone good and low frills like Earnest Langdon. I also recommend getting something like a DA/SA and learn how to shoot with that. The best thing I ever did to build my skills, other than train, was to shoot an HK LEM (std, not light). The trigger pretty bad, and difficult to stage or predict. It trained me To just focus on pressing the trigger consistently and focus on the front sight. After I learned that I found other guns to be no problem. The DA/SA is similar. Get a Beretta 92 or something that other shooters will claim is hard, or not ergonomic. DO NOT get a Glock and put an apex trigger in it or buy a 1911 with a 3 pound trigger. That is a recipe for shooting poorly, IMHO. Also, get some steel plates and a timer.
If that was tongue-in-cheek, okay.
Otherwise - when was the last time you went to the doctor, because some of your posts lately........
'Vibe's tongue is firmly in cheek, providing needed counter pressure to the cheek weld of an M16A2 clone.
Monogamy and putting in work.
Best advice I can give
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.