View Full Version : LeBaron family murdered by Cartel in Mexico.
Averageman
11-05-19, 12:20
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lebaron-mexico-family-reports-murder-relatives-including-children-suspected-drug-cartel-attack-2019-11-05/
At least nine U.S. citizens, including six children, who lived in a Mormon community in northern Mexico were killed Monday in a hail of gunfire, according to family members and Mexican officials. Relatives said they suspected it was a case of mistaken identity by drug cartel gunmen, but there has been no confirmation of a motive in the attack.
Family members told "CBS This Morning" that the FBI has opened an investigation into the killings. It happened Monday near the town of Bavispe, about 100 miles south of the Arizona border. The victims all left their community at the same time in three separate cars, some were traveling back to the U.S., some to a neighboring town for a wedding.
The families are members of the La Mora settlement, a decades-old community in Sonora state founded as an offshoot of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
One relative said he located one of the burned-out, bullet-ridden SUVs containing the remains of his nephew's wife and her four children, twin seven-month old babies and two other children aged 8 and 10.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiXvABBKogY
It's time to send in the Military, the FBI was applicable about a decade ago. This just got off of the chain.
No amount of pressure on Mexican Politicians is going to fix this.
I agree. Time to get really serious.
Averageman
11-05-19, 12:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43UkMQWjoH0
Part of my take on this is, "If you're an American Citizen living in Cartel land, maybe you need to pack your bags and Get the Fook out of Dodge."
Military won't intervene shit.
The guns were probably the ones given to them by us.
Call me cynical.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Outlander Systems
11-05-19, 12:36
Shouldn't we be more concerned with the Kurds, half a planet away tho?
Shouldn't we be more concerned with the Kurds, half a planet away tho?
Concerned, not more concerned.
What would happen if we nudged the governments of the Central American countries toward cleaning up their governments and improving the conditions for their citizens by earmarking 1/2 the money we give to Israel and the Sauds for them?
Most of you know that I’m pretty anti-war, but this seems like a good time for DoD to do send a message and make a hundred or so examples.
Mauser KAR98K
11-05-19, 12:43
1. Declare the Cartels a terrorist organization.
2. Issue No Travel Advisory for U.S. citizens to Mexico.
3. Build the wall.
4.Drone Strikes on known targets.
5. Highlight the corruption of the Mexican Government.
6. Seize cartel funds.
7. Blockade and inspect shipments into Mexico from China.
8. Declare MS13 other Mexican and Central American gangs as terrorists.
9. Declare war on the Cartels through Congress and issue orders of any dealers or associates with drugs, or human trafficking dealings with the cartels as traitors and enemies of the U.S.
10. Legalize marijuana in the U.S.
Scorched earth these heathen.
Outlander Systems
11-05-19, 12:46
lmfao.
The cartels are the Mexican government.
5. Highlight the corruption of the Mexican Government.
Not to sound like an ass, I do feel bad for them and the kids. Shit like this shouldn't happen. But we all know what countries are safe to live in, what parts are safe to visit...etc. If I were to move to El Salvador or Libya, Sudan, Congo or any other 3rd world country and something were to happen to me I would not expect or want the military involved. I wouldn't want some soldier to risk his/her life because I was too naive to know better.
Averageman
11-05-19, 12:57
Scorched earth these heathen.
Just wanted to recommend some Crucifixion before Firefly got here.
I don't see a down side in a military action, cross the border smack 'em like pinata and zoom back home, add in enough air cover and call it a fiesta.
Averageman
11-05-19, 12:59
Not to sound like an ass, I do feel bad for them and the kids. Shit like this shouldn't happen. But we all know what countries are safe to live in, what parts are safe to visit...etc. If I were to move to El Salvador or Libya, Sudan, Congo or any other 3rd world country and something were to happen to me I would not expect or want the military involved. I wouldn't want some soldier to risk his/her life because I was too naive to know better.
They left the US a hundred or so years ago to avoid some laws.
They aren't breaking those laws concerning multiple wives as far as I know anymore. They're just way invested in lad and agriculture.
I know some Mormon Ranchers who have relatives in that part Mexico. A large group of polygamist Mormons left the US in the 1890's into the early 1900's because the church outlawed plural marriage. Some of that group still practice it, but most followed the modern LDS Church. There are numerous families in that colony, and they have names you might recognize:
Jeffs, Jessop, Crum, Farnsworth, Finicum and Bundy....
They left the US a hundred or so years ago to avoid some laws.
They aren't breaking those laws concerning multiple wives as far as I know anymore. They're just way invested in lad and agriculture.
Their private/religious lives don't concern me. They're not bothering anyone and I'm not one to judge. And even if they were braking those laws it's certainly not a death sentence.
The article I read earlier today said several decades. If it was a 100 years ago and they are now Mexican citizens by birth, in that case US has nothing to do with this. If they were US born and moved to Mexico they should have been well aware of where they're moving too. And definitely aware of what it has become in recent years.
It's time for the US to DICTATE the terms of engagement, at least with these two cartels. This terrorist style attack against innocent women and children resulting in the deaths of 9 American citizens, is sufficient to declare war on Mexico. I don't care what their family history is, we have a duty to protect our citizens, expats or not.
Mexican President Obrador is feckless and incompetent. He had better drastically change his approach right now, or he's going to find Apache gunships and A-10 Warthogs running sorties into Mexico with F-16 CAP. :mad:
Not that this matters, but it is a piece being left out of the reports I have read. These were polygamists, returning from one of their franchises, that specializes in grooming young woman to be married off. Hence in another country.
A guy I am training, two of the people who were killed, are his cousins that he grew up with in Colorado City AZ.
They usually have to pay a safe passage "fee" coming back into the country. The Cartels know what is going on and as long as money is getting handed out, that all is bueno.
Just wanted to recommend some Crucifixion before Firefly got here.
I don't see a down side in a military action, cross the border smack 'em like pinata and zoom back home, add in enough air cover and call it a fiesta.
Agreed, if it was Al Queda or ISIS that was on our southern border we wouldnt be so squeamish about putting the wood to them. As it is, we're still thinking this is a law enforcement issue instead of a "we got a pile of crazed torturing murdering terrorists" on our border issue.
Averageman
11-05-19, 13:24
Their private/religious lives don't concern me. They're not bothering anyone and I'm not one to judge. And even if they were braking those laws it's certainly not a death sentence.
The article I read earlier today said several decades. If it was a 100 years ago and they are now Mexican citizens by birth, in that case US has nothing to do with this. If they were US born and moved to Mexico they should have been well aware of where they're moving too. And definitely aware of what it has become in recent years.
I'm not unaware of their situation and to some degree I'm sympathetic to why they left.
I'm not sure how they manage to remain US Citizens, but many have done so.
I'm probably related to some of them in some way or another. My relations that were polygamous just stayed in NW New Mexico and kept their heads down.
Outlander Systems
11-05-19, 13:38
We should have intervened militarily long before 5NOV19.
It's pathetic.
Agreed, if it was Al Queda or ISIS that was on our southern border we wouldnt be so squeamish about putting the wood to them. As it is, we're still thinking this is a law enforcement issue instead of a "we got a pile of crazed torturing murdering terrorists" on our border issue.
Not that this matters, but it is a piece being left out of the reports I have read. These were polygamists, returning from one of their franchises, that specializes in grooming young woman to be married off. Hence in another country.
A guy I am training, two of the people who were killed, are his cousins that he grew up with in Colorado City AZ.
They usually have to pay a safe passage "fee" coming back into the country. The Cartels know what is going on and as long as money is getting handed out, that all is bueno.
I know quite a bit about this bunch, and they have loose ties to the FLDS, the sect on the Arizona/Utah line in Colorado City, AZ and Hilldale, UT. This group has a connection to that Cliven Bundy "rancher" and his sons who had the standoff in Nevada, then the Malheur fiasco in Oregon. I've done business with that sect over the years and they have relatives here in New Mexico, whom I know personally.
The group in Mexico all have relatives connected to that sect, but they are not as hardcore as the FLDS under Warren Jeffs. They kind of became a Mormon sect of their own, accepting limited plural marriage, but not an integral part of their faith. For the most part quiet people who just want to be left alone.
1. Declare the Cartels a terrorist organization.
2. Issue No Travel Advisory for U.S. citizens to Mexico.
3. Build the wall.
4.Drone Strikes on known targets.
5. Highlight the corruption of the Mexican Government.
6. Seize cartel funds.
7. Blockade and inspect shipments into Mexico from China.
8. Declare MS13 other Mexican and Central American gangs as terrorists.
9. Declare war on the Cartels through Congress and issue orders of any dealers or associates with drugs, or human trafficking dealings with the cartels as traitors and enemies of the U.S.
10. Legalize marijuana in the U.S.
Agreed. Someone posted this in another thread which got closed. It's a lengthy listen, but very *much* worth it for those who really want to know the realities of the US border situation and some of it very similar to the above:
•They have operational control of our border and come and go as they please
•They have tech we don't
•We lost of the game a long time ago and are losing now
•Things are WAY worse than the US public knows
•They should be listed as terrorists group as massive human Rights atrocities are taking place, and it's no longer a law enforcement issue any longer.
•They have mil grade weaponry, including LAW's, shoulder fired ground2air missiles, 4th gen vehicles, etc.
•Being trained by special forces from other countries and use mil small unit tactics
•Cartels are far more advanced on every level than they where just a few years ago
•US gov turns a blind eye to it for various reasons
• Discussion of legalization to potentially cut the legs out from under the cartels starts at 1:30
That's just some of the points covered by one of the more qualified people who has ever opened up about that topic.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mike-drop/id1346234726?i=1000451233374
1. Declare the Cartels a terrorist organization.
2. Issue No Travel Advisory for U.S. citizens to Mexico.
3. Build the wall.
4.Drone Strikes on known targets.
5. Highlight the corruption of the Mexican Government.
6. Seize cartel funds.
7. Blockade and inspect shipments into Mexico from China.
8. Declare MS13 other Mexican and Central American gangs as terrorists.
9. Declare war on the Cartels through Congress and issue orders of any dealers or associates with drugs, or human trafficking dealings with the cartels as traitors and enemies of the U.S.
10. Legalize marijuana in the U.S.
Sounds about right.
Outlander Systems
11-05-19, 14:25
They also have an extremely, EXTREMELY, sophisticated, off-grid communications network.
Agreed. Someone posted this in another thread which got closed. It's a lengthy listen, but very *much* worth it for those who really want to know the realities of the US border situation and some of it very similar to the above:
•They have operational control of our border and come and go as they please
•They have tech we don't
•We lost of the game a long time ago and are losing now
•Things are WAY worse than the US public knows
•They should be listed as terrorists group as massive human Rights atrocities are taking place, and it's no longer a law enforcement issue any longer.
•They have mil grade weaponry, including LAW's, shoulder fired ground2air missiles, 4th gen vehicles, etc.
•Being trained by special forces from other countries and use mil small unit tactics
•Cartels are far more advanced on every level than they where just a few years ago
•US gov turns a blind eye to it for various reasons
• Discussion of legalization to potentially cut the legs out from under the cartels starts at 1:30
That's just some of the points covered by one of the more qualified people who has ever opened up about that topic.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mike-drop/id1346234726?i=1000451233374
We should have intervened militarily long before 5NOV19.
It's pathetic.
Probably so. The govt isn't in a big hurry to use the military in a so called democratic country.
They also have an extremely, EXTREMELY, sophisticated, off-grid communications network.
That is mentioned also. Honestly I'm amazed things are not far worse than they are on our side of the border after listening to that. I suspect it's simply by choice of the cartels to keep the US from really responding knowing we will not react fully if they don't escelate to where the public finally "gets" it and demands something done.
Not unlike OBL pre 9/11. It's amazing how many people think that was the first time his org attacked us and killed US citizens.
Mauser KAR98K
11-05-19, 14:50
Agreed. Someone posted this in another thread which got closed. It's a lengthy listen, but very *much* worth it for those who really want to know the realities of the US border situation and some of it very similar to the above:
•They have operational control of our border and come and go as they please
•They have tech we don't
•We lost of the game a long time ago and are losing now
•Things are WAY worse than the US public knows
•They should be listed as terrorists group as massive human Rights atrocities are taking place, and it's no longer a law enforcement issue any longer.
•They have mil grade weaponry, including LAW's, shoulder fired ground2air missiles, 4th gen vehicles, etc.
•Being trained by special forces from other countries and use mil small unit tactics
•Cartels are far more advanced on every level than they where just a few years ago
•US gov turns a blind eye to it for various reasons
• Discussion of legalization to potentially cut the legs out from under the cartels starts at 1:30
That's just some of the points covered by one of the more qualified people who has ever opened up about that topic.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mike-drop/id1346234726?i=1000451233374
I just subscribed to that. Thanks for the link.
Involving legalizing drugs to hamper the cash flow: it can and can't.
The three most dangerous words in the English language is "Half Price Sale."
The idea of taxing and regulating the drugs we decide to legalize is going to bring another issue: can the consumer get it cheaper, tax free, and stronger of what the government allows?
If the Cartels can still produce it cheaper and cut their price, along with the cost of smuggling, could they under cut the U.S. supply, and still get the poison that is killing our people across with the profit they want?
Also, their main money driver will become human trafficking. That we can stop with the Wall and the cutting of entitlements. But we know who doesn't want that.
I just subscribed to that. Thanks for the link.
Involving legalizing drugs to hamper the cash flow: it can and can't.
The three most dangerous words in the English language is "Half Price Sale."
The idea of taxing and regulating the drugs we decide to legalize is going to bring another issue: can the consumer get it cheaper, tax free, and stronger of what the government allows?
If the Cartels can still produce it cheaper and cut their price, along with the cost of smuggling, could they under cut the U.S. supply, and still get the poison that is killing our people across with the profit they want?
Also, their main money driver will become human trafficking. That we can stop with the Wall and the cutting of entitlements. But we know who doesn't want that.
I'm going to leave that can of worms alone as it never ends well here. I will say I strongly lean toward the hosts positions on that topic. We lost that "war" a long time ago by any metric and the guest fully agrees with that assessment.
I’m confused. The FBI is free to investigate crimes in foreign countries?
Agreed. Someone posted this in another thread which got closed. It's a lengthy listen, but very *much* worth it for those who really want to know the realities of the US border situation and some of it very similar to the above:
•They have operational control of our border and come and go as they please
•They have tech we don't
•We lost of the game a long time ago and are losing now
•Things are WAY worse than the US public knows
•They should be listed as terrorists group as massive human Rights atrocities are taking place, and it's no longer a law enforcement issue any longer.
•They have mil grade weaponry, including LAW's, shoulder fired ground2air missiles, 4th gen vehicles, etc.
•Being trained by special forces from other countries and use mil small unit tactics
•Cartels are far more advanced on every level than they where just a few years ago
•US gov turns a blind eye to it for various reasons
• Discussion of legalization to potentially cut the legs out from under the cartels starts at 1:30
That's just some of the points covered by one of the more qualified people who has ever opened up about that topic.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mike-drop/id1346234726?i=1000451233374
Great post, Will. Thanks for this.
What would happen if we nudged the governments of the Central American countries toward cleaning up their governments and improving the conditions for their citizens by earmarking 1/2 the money we give to Israel and the Sauds for them?
The Democrats would open a cascade of impeachment inquiries.
Had some dealings with the LeBaron cult, can't find much sympathy for that lot. They made their bed as far as I am concerned. I realize the victims were mostly also brainwashed victims of that pedophilic polygamous cult, but still can't find much to get all "storm the beaches" over.
Why make this about the life choices of the victims instead of focusing on the failed state just to the South of us. For 3 years the Democrats, the media and the open border bunch have been telling us we don't need no stinkin' border control. The whole time this kind of shit is happening every day and it takes American women and kids getting ambushed and murdered to get any kind of notice. I fully expect to soon see some asshole use this as reason to let more uneducated invaders into the US because it's not safe down there.
Johnny Rico
11-05-19, 23:00
Dumb question time...
These folks were part of a Mormon settlement in Mexico correct? Why are they considered Americans?
SomeOtherGuy
11-05-19, 23:00
The Democrats would open a cascade of impeachment inquiries.
And 3/4 of the RINOs would sit back and relax and even help them out. The massive payments to our ME "allies" get lots of support on both sides, for very similar reasons. In fact Bernie is probably the most sincere opponent of those payments. (Not that he's my choice in almost any other way.)
Why make this about the life choices of the victims instead of focusing on the failed state just to the South of us. For 3 years the Democrats, the media and the open border bunch have been telling us we don't need no stinkin' border control.
The corruption is international, even global. The Dems want endless migration for the votes and to destroy traditional America, but the RINOs want the same migration for cheap labor and crude economic development (literally more bodies buying stuff), and don't give a rat's ass about the interests of their ideological base. Few people are more deluded than the sincere Republicans who make under $200k and think people like Jeb are looking out for them.
Dumb question time...
These folks were part of a Mormon settlement in Mexico correct? Why are they considered Americans?
Dual citizenship.
Johnny Rico
11-05-19, 23:06
Dual citizenship.
Thanks. So in truth, these were nine Mexican citizens murdered by a cartel.
Had some dealings with the LeBaron cult, can't find much sympathy for that lot. They made their bed as far as I am concerned. I realize the victims were mostly also brainwashed victims of that pedophilic polygamous cult, but still can't find much to get all "storm the beaches" over.
Nobody deserves to be murdered, especially children. These mad dogs will do it again and next time it might be some regular Americans or Mexicans.
Thanks. So in truth, these were nine Mexican citizens murdered by a cartel.
I dont know the exact nature of their American citizenship, but until I read that it was somehow hinky, I'll consider them Americans also.
I dont know the exact nature of their American citizenship, but until I read that it was somehow hinky, I'll consider them Americans also.
Mexican terrorists mass murdering Mexican citizens doesn’t really give us any room to decide what happens South of the border. Mexican terrorists mass murdering American citizens in Mexico gives us a seat at the table, even if they’re dual citizens.
I doubt I’d have anything in common with these people and under ordinary circumstances I wouldn’t care about them one way or another. But these terrorists are actively engaged in criminal enterprises to support their cause (power) in this country. If the Democrats had their way, they’d be operating like this right here in America and we’d be contemplating the use of the military within our borders.
If the powers that be decide to decriminalize drugs, tax the hell out of them and use the proceeds for treatment and civil court options, I’m fine with that. But make no mistake, that will NOT stop these savages from continuing their evil deeds. They will pivot to some other lucrative criminal enterprise because going legit isn’t in their nature.
The only way to cut down on this violence is to kill as many of them as possible in a spectacular fashion. If that means drones, gunships, even cruise missiles or bombers, I think the time has come to put the spurs to them. They’ll still do what they do, but they won’t do it with impunity anymore. I don’t much care how many of each other they kill, but shooting and roasting American children alive in cars on public roads is the bright red line for me.
Had some dealings with the LeBaron cult, can't find much sympathy for that lot. They made their bed as far as I am concerned. I realize the victims were mostly also brainwashed victims of that pedophilic polygamous cult, but still can't find much to get all "storm the beaches" over.
Please flesh this out for the purpose of clarity. What are they about?
The Democrats would open a cascade of impeachment inquiries.
LOL - notice that I wasn't advocating a circumstance where it might seem a condition of receiving funds was investigating anyone in particular, just cleaning up there government. Or does Biden have a son who is involved in Central America? :)
Google Ervil LeBaron and read for yourself. Basically they are a cult based on polygamy and the power of a small group of men. They "marry" their daughters off extremely young (12-13) to be brood mares for lecherous older men. They moved to a relatively lawless area of Mexico to be able to continue their cult without much threat from the reach of the authorities.
Still, these were mostly, if not all, women and children. Victims of the cult. I should feel more sympathy for them, but I just can't muster it up.
Google Ervil LeBaron and read for yourself. Basically they are a cult based on polygamy and the power of a small group of men. They "marry" their daughters off extremely young (12-13) to be brood mares for lecherous older men. They moved to a relatively lawless area of Mexico to be able to continue their cult without much threat from the reach of the authorities.
Still, these were mostly, if not all, women and children. Victims of the cult. I should feel more sympathy for them, but I just can't muster it up.
Assuming that is true, and my own limited knowledge tends to confirm something of the sort, I can see that these folks aren't the most sympathetic victims. I don't give a damn.
Their heinous deaths as others have noted gives us the pretext we need to clean house in Mexico. That is enough for me.
We need to take a page from our enemies here--they are winning, btw, and "Never let a crisis go to waste"....We cannot continue tolerating a failed state on our border. The corruption and illegal invasion is going to end this country as we know it. We either act or we become Mexifornia. You are not going to like the results if the Left establishes One Party Rule in this country....
THIS is the sort of existential threat-clear and present danger if you will that justifies American military force. If we will not deploy our military in the face of this threat we may as well disband it altogether and say, "We've had a good run".
Averageman
11-06-19, 06:25
A bit more, some of this might answer your questions;
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/11/05/la-mora-mormon-family-killed-sonora-mexico-what-we-know/4163210002/
I'm not to sure of the accuracy of this;
Nine members of a family with dual U.S. and Mexican citizenship – three mothers and their children – were brutally killed by gunmen in Mexico.
Although authorities in Mexico have yet to confirm many details about the gunmen, relatives suspect the attack may have been a case of mistaken identity by drug cartels. The killing barrage took place Monday in a remote, mountainous area where the Sinaloa cartel has been engaged in a turf war with another gang.
Because of this;/B]
All of the victims were apparently related to the extended LeBaron family in Chihuahua, whose members have run afoul of the drug traffickers over the years. Benjamin LeBaron, an anti-crime activist who founded neighborhood patrols against cartels, was killed in 2009 by gunmen in a watershed moment in Mexico's drug war.
The victims were all U.S. citizens and members of La Mora, a settlement of less than 1,000 people about 70 miles south of Douglas, Arizona. The hamlet was [B]founded decades ago by a fundamentalist offshoot of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Many La Mora residents call themselves Mormons but are not affiliated with the church.
Staddon told The Arizona Republic that three mothers with dual U.S. and Mexican citizenship were driving from Bavispe to a wedding in LeBaron, another Mormon-offshoot community in the state of Chihuahua, when their three SUV's loaded with children were attacked. One of the vehicles exploded in flames.
The attack happened near Rancho La Mora on the border between Sonora and Chihuahua, the Mexican newspaper El Diario, reported.
Around an ambush scene that stretched for miles, investigators found over 200 shell casings, mostly from assault rifles.
Staddon said her brother discovered the bullet-ridden vehicle smoldering.
According to Staddon, three mothers and six children died in the attack. She identified the mothers as Rhonita Miller, Dawna Langford and Christina Johnson. Another surviving relative, Julián LeBaron, identified Miller on Facebook as Rhonita María LeBaron, which Staddon said was her maiden name.
Staddon said 33-year-old Miller, her nephew’s wife, and her four children died in the blaze. The children were ages 8 and 10 and 4-month-old twins, a boy and a girl.
Langford, Staddon’s sister-in-law, and her two children died in the attack. She was traveling in the second vehicle with nine children.
If it is a case of an ambush triggered by mistaken identity or not, it's simply an atrocity that will likely be swept under the rug if the Mexican government (AKA The Cartels) has anything to do with it.
This was pretty interesting to me.
In a tweet Tuesday morning, President Donald Trump offered U.S. military support to Mexico “to wage WAR on the drug cartels and wipe them off the face of the earth.”
Mexican President Andrés Manuel López Obrador turned down the offer, saying that approach has been tried before “and it didn’t work.”
We as a Nation need to tighten our collective shot group when it comes to these issues on the Border.
I have no problem with using Military forcre against the Cartels or those who refuse to acknowledge or honor our border sovereignty.
Outlander Systems
11-06-19, 07:31
https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc
https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc
Per usual, only way they survive is by taking up arms...That explains it. Clearly not mistaken identity. Astounding Romney got that close to being POTUS and he was Gov of my state when I lived there. He sucked, and didn't run again. And we can thank Romney for Obama Care as Romney Care was first (it sucked), and Obama care based on that model and the "success" of Romney Care.
A cult by any other name....
Averageman
11-06-19, 08:53
Like I said, I can sympathize with these folks leaving the US for religious reasons, but it takes a special kind of stupid to talk to Vice about fighting the Cartel's and owning guns in Mexico.
As usual, it takes a British "tabloid" outlet to provide decent coverage of the situation. Looks like the rival Juarez based "La Linea" cartel went South into the Sinaloa cartel territory and set up the ambush the LeBaron family drove into. Allegedly the Sinaloa cartel found out someone was on their turf and went to engage them, which ultimately delayed rescue of the rest of the family.
If true, then mistaken identity rather than local cartel retaliation against the Mormon community may be the truth.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7655867/Suspected-drug-lord-arrested-slaying-Mormon-family.html
Their heinous deaths as others have noted gives us the pretext we need to clean house in Mexico. That is enough for me.
I respectfully disagree with this, while sharing your anger and frustration...
We wouldn't be able to "clean house" in Mexico any more than we did in Afghanistan. Mexico is a thoroughly corrupt narco-democracy with no more interest what we want than any other place we have intervened in.
The wall is not going to be as effective as dismantling entitlements and interior enforcement in this country, but should still be done albeit in a way that makes tactical sense given terrain and weather and manpower, etc. When we had all the king's horses and all the king's men down south, we still couldn't really gain whatever they ever meant by "operational control." I am not breaking news here, this battle was lost a long time ago and all we can do now is close the barn door until all the dreamers become congressmen and Presidents. Maybe it can be turned around, but my faith is weak.
Maybe give it to the spooks and let them do targeted operations, if we still can do that... but they can too, and they are here. A Big Army operation, without a defensible border covered by observation and fire, and aggressive interior enforcement, and you're looking at another giant failure, without even mentioning internal unrest here at home, and the inevitable WIA and KIA. If this country cannot get behind defending what it means to be a citizen and have a border, what would be the point of big military intervention? Elected officials are clearly articulating hatred of this country, and most normal people still can't be bothered to vote.
End of rambling
https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc
Brent isn't a devout Mormon - you can tell he's a dipper by his lower lip.
ETA - plus the booze
What would be the point? A lot of dead cartel terrorists.
And a lot of Americans can in fact get behind what it means to be a citizen. Half are too busy smoking dope or whatever.
Shouldn't we be more concerned with the Kurds, half a planet away tho?
No.
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Their heinous deaths as others have noted gives us the pretext we need to clean house in Mexico. That is enough for me.
I respectfully disagree with this, while sharing your anger and frustration...
We wouldn't be able to "clean house" in Mexico any more than we did in Afghanistan. Mexico is a thoroughly corrupt narco-democracy with no more interest what we want than any other place we have intervened in.
The wall is not going to be as effective as dismantling entitlements and interior enforcement in this country, but should still be done albeit in a way that makes tactical sense given terrain and weather and manpower, etc. When we had all the king's horses and all the king's men down south, we still couldn't really gain whatever they ever meant by "operational control." I am not breaking news here, this battle was lost a long time ago and all we can do now is close the barn door until all the dreamers become congressmen and Presidents. Maybe it can be turned around, but my faith is weak.
Maybe give it to the spooks and let them do targeted operations, if we still can do that... but they can too, and they are here. A Big Army operation, without a defensible border covered by observation and fire, and aggressive interior enforcement, and you're looking at another giant failure, without even mentioning internal unrest here at home, and the inevitable WIA and KIA. If this country cannot get behind defending what it means to be a citizen and have a border, what would be the point of big military intervention? Elected officials are clearly articulating hatred of this country, and most normal people still can't be bothered to vote.
End of rambling
Probably the most effective intervention would be SF on the ground in hot spots who can vector drones in for targeted attacks when the narcos go hot. If you can't kill them all (and you can't), the next best thing is to make them afraid to wage open warfare the way they do now.
I'd be more circumspect abut sending spooks in to deal with them, seeing as they might rather put some of them on the payroll. :(
It's time for the US to DICTATE the terms of engagement, at least with these two cartels. This terrorist style attack against innocent women and children resulting in the deaths of 9 American citizens, is sufficient to declare war on Mexico. I don't care what their family history is, we have a duty to protect our citizens, expats or not.
Mexican President Obrador is feckless and incompetent. He had better drastically change his approach right now, or he's going to find Apache gunships and A-10 Warthogs running sorties into Mexico with F-16 CAP. :mad:
You’re startin’ to sound like them Russians!
Seriously, though, that’s Russia’s issues in Ukraine, Serbia and elsewhere.
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You’re startin’ to sound like them Russians!
Seriously, though, that’s Russia’s issues in Ukraine, Serbia and elsewhere.
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Well the Russians would let them go, but then unfortunately they would die. ;)
Dual citizenship.
Which should not be allowed.
Cannot serve two or more nations. Everyone should be required to choose.
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Probably the most effective intervention would be SF on the ground in hot spots who can vector drones in for targeted attacks when the narcos go hot. If you can't kill them all (and you can't), the next best thing is to make them afraid to wage open warfare the way they do now.
I'd be more circumspect abut sending spooks in to deal with them, seeing as they might rather put some of them on the payroll. :(
If we can do what we did in Colombia, which made Mexico look downright safe, we do it in Mexico. The difference is the Colombians wanted our help, and took it and ran with it to turn things around where the narcos no longer own the country. It's far from the safest place, but it's 180 compared to what it was and ex pats, biz etc are going there. Like a cancer, they simply moved north and south, but that's another topic. Much of why some countries don't ask for/accept our help is due down to good old pride and ego I have discovered via my travels and talking to people about it.
You’re startin’ to sound like them Russians!
Seriously, though, that’s Russia’s issues in Ukraine, Serbia and elsewhere.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI was gonna say, this is the standard russian (and nazi german) pretext for invading countries. We need no parts of this behavior.
They left the US to get their freedom on in the nether world. They are in gods hands now... just how they like it.
#Trustgodsplan
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I was gonna say, this is the standard russian (and nazi german) pretext for invading countries. We need no parts of this behavior.
They left the US to get their freedom on in the nether world. They are in gods hands now... just how they like it.
#Trustgodsplan
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In modern, Christian Russia and Germany’s instances they are/were correct.
Look up how Poland was KILLING German citizens.
Russia has also had Russian citizens in various enclaves for a VERY long time.
But I’m with you in that we should temper any military campaigns. Had we secured our southern border and not supported the international drug trade we would not be here.
Few get that until we are dragged into a bloody mess. That ain’t the way to live... thinking prior to catastrophe beats responding to events that ALWAYS cost you and me.
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Outlander Systems
11-06-19, 19:05
I was specifically told we were the freest country in the world though?
I was gonna say, this is the standard russian (and nazi german) pretext for invading countries. We need no parts of this behavior.
They left the US to get their freedom on in the nether world. They are in gods hands now... just how they like it.
#Trustgodsplan
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Probably the most effective intervention would be SF on the ground in hot spots who can vector drones in for targeted attacks when the narcos go hot. If you can't kill them all (and you can't), the next best thing is to make them afraid to wage open warfare the way they do now.
I'd be more circumspect abut sending spooks in to deal with them, seeing as they might rather put some of them on the payroll. :(
Fair enough, about spooks, point taken. But US servicemen in Mexico would give the narcos, and the leftists like AMLO a kind of legitimacy insofar as they could rally people to fight the gringos or whatever. Dead narcos are not worth it in my opinion. We could do more by sanctioning the elite s that hide their money here in the US. Check out the article in The Federalist if you want.
Again I disagree that Americans would get behind this at any rate. Fighting narcos begins at home, and we are not doing even a good job of it, from my admittedly low level of involvement. I am sorry for what happened to those kids, but their parents assumed that responsibility by bringing them into the snake pit. The adults knew better. Anyone who goes to Mexico (or any other crap-hole) knows or should know what might happen.
Having said all that, I wish we could stop doing any kind of business with Mexico or China or any other country that we need to punish, as well as build a wall or at least defend the border, but I guess that ship sailed in 1992 or thereabouts.
An interesting read here... https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2019/11/the-lebaron-family-in-mexico-a-history-of-conflict/?fbclid=IwAR0eR5ZRm3UA9HchrxImG865AAjzIkDlnRH0Tt396PHoEiN6Oh6lOEK5Sdc
Sounds like they chose to be there, chose to be dual citizens, and chose to stay even after a history of trouble with the cartels and the locals.
An interesting read here... https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2019/11/the-lebaron-family-in-mexico-a-history-of-conflict/?fbclid=IwAR0eR5ZRm3UA9HchrxImG865AAjzIkDlnRH0Tt396PHoEiN6Oh6lOEK5Sdc
Sounds like they chose to be there, chose to be dual citizens, and chose to stay even after a history of trouble with the cartels and the locals.
The ones killed deserved it?
The ones killed deserved it?
Not my point, but I can see where you got that from. I should have expounded a little further.
I don't think we should take any action in Mexico related to this. Military involvement in Mexico over this would be a bad decision.
So just let the cartels rule?
So just let the cartels rule?
It's not my country. As far as I'm concerned if you decide to buy property or settle in Mexico, American or not, you get what Mexico offers in the way of protection or lack there of. Like has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, there is much doubt we can make a difference anyway. I far prefer spending the money on defending the actual border and letting Mexico deal with Mexico. I am quite confident we can build a wall, defend it, and deal with violators far cheaper than we can provide a prolonged military action to root out the cartels.
FWIW, this issue came to them, not vice versa. Their presence there predates it by many decades.
Also, I would never advocate or condone stationing US troops in Mexico. Quick strikes and back out. Limited ground presence and only to the bare minimum necessary for facilitating said strikes. Any advisory roles could be facilitated on our side of the border.
Averageman
11-07-19, 06:07
I had to give my Mom a call about this because I was very curious. She's a very devote LDS member, we as kids were in Church three times a week for decades.
There were a lot of noble reasons for plural marriages, not all of them involved a sexual relationship between the consenting adults.
Many times Families in that era were left with no Male family member due to the dangers of the work men did. In it's purest form those families without Male leaders were absorbed in to other families. Other times Men just took more than one wife, it got a bit sketchy then.
Anyway, the US government show up at your door one day and tells you "One Wife" so your choice was bad all the way around. Some folks were directed by Brigham Young to disperse, some of those folks went to Mexico, others in to the New Mexico and Arizona territories.
The Le Baron family went to Mexico, parts of my Family went to North Western New Mexico. The Le Baron's were known for being "Out Law Mormons." survival and wealth sometimes made some choices that otherwise wouldn't be acceptable. Things kind of spun out from there.
In the here and now, I'm not sure how these folks are dual citizens, or how they do that, but my Mom assures me they all are.
At this point I'm not sure we can "fix" our issues on our Southern border without addressing all of this and especially the Cartels.
Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 06:46
Why? We’ve been subject to a literal invasion for decades?
Not my point, but I can see where you got that from. I should have expounded a little further.
I don't think we should take any action in Mexico related to this. Military involvement in Mexico over this would be a bad decision.
Not my point, but I can see where you got that from. I should have expounded a little further.
I don't think we should take any action in Mexico related to this. Military involvement in Mexico over this would be a bad decision.
Mexico is LITERALLY a failed state, on our border. Yet we’re more concerned with pissing away blood and treasure fighting endless wars half a world away on behalf of Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Narco affiliates are a greater threat to you and I CONUS than ISIS, Al Queda, etc ever have been.
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Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 07:36
Amen.
Mexico is LITERALLY a failed state, on our border. Yet we’re more concerned with pissing away blood and treasure fighting endless wars half a world away on behalf of Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Narco affiliates are a greater threat to you and I CONUS than ISIS, Al Queda, etc ever have been.
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Mexico is LITERALLY a failed state, on our border. Yet we’re more concerned with pissing away blood and treasure fighting endless wars half a world away on behalf of Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Narco affiliates are a greater threat to you and I CONUS than ISIS, Al Queda, etc ever have been.
Thank you for saying that.
Not to mention the silent invasion of these cartels into parts of our SW.
SomeOtherGuy
11-07-19, 09:24
Mexico is LITERALLY a failed state, on our border. Yet we’re more concerned with pissing away blood and treasure fighting endless wars half a world away on behalf of Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Narco affiliates are a greater threat to you and I CONUS than ISIS, Al Queda, etc ever have been.
+ 1 million. Nice to see this coming out into the open. A large part of the southwestern USA is not really the USA in population demographics, culture or personal identity any more. That's coming for the rest of the 48 if we don't do something about it yesterday. Of course this is why so many Americans voted for Trump, and we see how the opposition is dealing with that.
Don't underestimate the odds of various D's and RINOs being on the literal payroll of narcos and other foreign criminals, and two of our "friends" in the middle east as well as China and other countries. Not soft corruption, outright bribery and "owned" politicians.
Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 09:42
Don't worry guys, these literal invaders will totally embrace "Conservative Values" and we should absolutely be more focused on the Kurds and the ME.
Report: Illegal immigrant population inside US surged 550,000 in 2019:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/washington-secrets/report-illegal-immigration-population-inside-us-surged-550-000-in-2019
TLDR on why nothing is ever done:
The issues in MENA rock the boat of the oligarchs.
The issues through invasion across the southern border rock the boat of you commoner/serf scum.
Mexico is LITERALLY a failed state, on our border. Yet we’re more concerned with pissing away blood and treasure fighting endless wars half a world away on behalf of Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Narco affiliates are a greater threat to you and I CONUS than ISIS, Al Queda, etc ever have been.
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Worth another repeat! All about priorities.
We are spending hundreds of billions to keep Saudi Arabia (Wahhabism) propped up to keep the Petro Dollar in place so Congress can spend like drunken sailors on shore leave.
Meanwhile some of the most viscous and powerful criminal terrorist organizations operate with impunity in our border and have infiltrated to most every US city.
What could $500 billion/yr for military and LE effort do about the cartels?
Worth another repeat! All about priorities.
We are spending hundreds of billions to keep Saudi Arabia (Wahhabism) propped up to keep the Petro Dollar in place so Congress can spend like drunken sailors on shore leave.
Meanwhile some of the most viscous and powerful criminal terrorist organizations operate with impunity in our border and have infiltrated to most every US city.
What could $500 billion/yr for military and LE effort do about the cartels?
Gonna go with not much considering the high probability of the drunken sailors, their benefactors, and associates benefiting from criminal enterprises. Also a high probability of the "need" for gun control, much like how New York needed the Sullivan Act.
Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 10:09
This can not be stressed enough.
fify
...considering the FACT the drunken sailors, their benefactors, and associates benefiting from criminal enterprises.
Gonna go with not much considering the high probability of the drunken sailors, their benefactors, and associates benefiting from criminal enterprises. Also a high probability of the "need" for gun control, much like how New York needed the Sullivan Act.
parasites...
Gonna go with not much considering the high probability of the drunken sailors, their benefactors, and associates benefiting from criminal enterprises. Also a high probability of the "need" for gun control, much like how New York needed the Sullivan Act.
Yes, I don't think many realize just how many are kept employed and or making $ for so many, by the ongoing "war on drugs." To actually "win" it in any real sense of the term, would put a lot people out of work, mean some LE orgs would really have no reason to exist, and require a level of commitment we don't have.
Why are politicians looking the other way on immigration and drugs coming across the border? All that money, some of it’s making it’s way into their pockets.
Averageman
11-07-19, 11:34
You know at this point, I would have a problem sending some CIA, backed by some Spec Op's guys down there to do some just straight up mayhem, kidnapping and extraction.
Add in a few quick cross border strikes by an ACR with some air support and just disrupt the process. Everyone in business has a supply chain, storage and banking just intel those places and boom, there goes the process.
I'm not sure that I care what the Mexican government say's, they are bought and paid for by these guys. If they didn't want a fight, they wouldn't shoot our Citizens and it's pretty hard for me to believe this was an accident when they were gunning down women and kids that had exited the vehicles and were 15 yards away when gunned down.
It’s no accident the US gov doesn’t have control of the border either.
Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 12:25
My dude, they’re some of the biggest drug dealers in the history of drug dealing. It’d be like sending Jefferey Epstein to raid Jimmy Saville’s torture dungeon.
You know at this point, I would have a problem sending some CIA...
Dr. Bullseye
11-07-19, 12:46
Mexico sends us unwanted people and drugs, both poisoning our culture and country. Mexico has always been the enemy. I said this in 2001 with the 9/11 hysteria. We got nothing for the billions flushed down the sewers of NYC and in the meantime you lost California.
Bring all the troops home from foreign countries. Set up a buffer zone 200 miles deep in Northern Mexico. Remove border towns and push them south. No water, no food, no highways, no railroads in that 200 miles. If Mexico gives us any shit, cruise missile them into the Stone Age, the OLD STONE AGE.
No more half measures, no more mr. nice guys, no more placating political correctness. No more worship of our military in foreign campaigns---they can volunteer for that on their own. Regarding our military, it is time to defend this country and anyone not defending this country as ICE, the Border Patrol, and the Coast Guard is doing is not defending this country but instead some other country. Let them give offer "thanks for your service".
Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 12:52
ICE, DHS, HSI, CBP are the real MVPs for sure.
Mexico sends us unwanted people and drugs, both poisoning our culture and country. Mexico has always been the enemy. I said this in 2001 with the 9/11 hysteria. We got nothing for the billions flushed down the sewers of NYC and in the meantime you lost California.
Bring all the troops home from foreign countries. Set up a buffer zone 200 miles deep in Northern Mexico. Remove border towns and push them south. No water, no food, no highways, no railroads in that 200 miles. If Mexico gives us any shit, cruise missile them into the Stone Age, the OLD STONE AGE.
No more half measures, no more mr. nice guys, no more placating political correctness. No more worship of our military in foreign campaigns---they can volunteer for that on their own. Regarding our military, it is time to defend this country and anyone not defending this country as ICE, the Border Patrol, and the Coast Guard is doing is not defending this country but instead some other country. Let them give offer "thanks for your service".
Mexico sends us unwanted people and drugs, both poisoning our culture and country. Mexico has always been the enemy. I said this in 2001 with the 9/11 hysteria. We got nothing for the billions flushed down the sewers of NYC and in the meantime you lost California.
Bring all the troops home from foreign countries. Set up a buffer zone 200 miles deep in Northern Mexico. Remove border towns and push them south. No water, no food, no highways, no railroads in that 200 miles. If Mexico gives us any shit, cruise missile them into the Stone Age, the OLD STONE AGE.
No more half measures, no more mr. nice guys, no more placating political correctness. No more worship of our military in foreign campaigns---they can volunteer for that on their own. Regarding our military, it is time to defend this country and anyone not defending this country as ICE, the Border Patrol, and the Coast Guard is doing is not defending this country but instead some other country. Let them give offer "thanks for your service".
Not close to accurate. We didn't lose CA, they did, cuz we took it from them, as we did TX, etc. That being said up to modern times, the border is open because most of them coming here do jobs for $ we will not, which is how we keep a large portion of our food so cheap. Laborers from Mexico represent dirt cheap labor, and we have had programs over the decades that encouraged them to work in the US, and programs that discouraged them depending on the economy and political winds.
The powers that be are well aware of of the fact most people will lose their minds should the prices of foods, and other labor go up, and that's one of various reasons those who actually hire them, are either ignored or at worse, slap on the wrist. Meanwhile, the lettuce gets picked, houses get their lawns done, etc, same reason Europe allowed in those "refugees" cheap ass labor.
Vast majority of Mexicans and others coming here are as they seem, looking for a better life and make some $, which often gets sent back to their home country. A small % are what we all fear, drug runners, refugees, terrorists, etc. and all of them are of our own making sadly.
The dirty - no so well kept secret - is we need the cheap labor and no on has the balls to just say it as it is. This has been an ongoing open secret for many decades and while 'Muricans complain about those "damn Mexicans" not a one would vote for a politician who saw the costs of various foods etc skyrocket up on their watch.
Vast majority of Mexicans want what most want, feed their kids, live their lives, be left alone and such.
Until we get honest about being the black hole of drug use of the planet, knowing any real attempts to control the border will cost us on various fronts, etc, it's all BS.
Dr. Bullseye
11-07-19, 14:39
Not close to accurate. We didn't lose CA, they did, cuz we took it from them, as we did TX, etc. That being said up to modern times, the border is open because most of them coming here do jobs for $ we will not, which is how we keep a large portion of our food so cheap. Laborers from Mexico represent dirt cheap labor, and we have had programs over the decades that encouraged them to work in the US, and programs that discouraged them depending on the economy and political winds.
The powers that be are well aware of of the fact most people will lose their minds should the prices of foods, and other labor go up, and that's one of various reasons those who actually hire them, are either ignored or at worse, slap on the wrist. Meanwhile, the lettuce gets picked, houses get their lawns done, etc, same reason Europe allowed in those "refugees" cheap ass labor.
Vast majority of Mexicans and others coming here are as they seem, looking for a better life and make some $, which often gets sent back to their home country. A small % are what we all fear, drug runners, refugees, terrorists, etc. and all of them are of our own making sadly.
The dirty - no so well kept secret - is we need the cheap labor and no on has the balls to just say it as it is. This has been an ongoing open secret for many decades and while 'Muricans complain about those "damn Mexicans" not a one would vote for a politician who saw the costs of various foods etc skyrocket up on their watch.
Vast majority of Mexicans want what most want, feed their kids, live their lives, be left alone and such.
Until we get honest about being the black hole of drug use of the planet, knowing any real attempts to control the border will cost us on various fronts, etc, it's all BS.
Will, you are a good guy so please don't take this as a personal attack. But one thing is for certain. You are not in California.
Here, all our elementary schools educate second generation illegals. They are swamping our educational standards and funds. Our prisons contain a majority illegal alien population content. Then there is parole-probation. There is gang enforcement costs, There are illegal drug task forces dealing with labs, smuggling, and groves. There is welfare. There is subsidized housing--for which illegals get priority. Sure, Mexican men work like dogs but illegals never earn enough money "doing jobs nobody else will do" to even feed their children. We have food stamps and food banks to do this.
And what are these "jobs nobody else will do"? They work on plantations owned by a few families occupying vast tracks of land, mostly in the Central Valley but also in Wine Country. These plantation owners demand cheap water, and I mean almost zero cost, they demand special trade laws, they demand local communities educate and feed their workers and their families. Rural towns are submerged by these costs. In a fair world these plantation owners could not make a living and would be forced to sell their plantations for subdivisions. Then the State would get some revenue. Fruit, vegetables, rice (yes rice with all that cheap water)???? Buy them from Chile. The illegals could travel down there and work.
Then there is the issue of access to resources. The State of California under Communist dictatorship gives priority in hiring to illegals and demands this of the private sector. They also allow illegals into our state funded colleges without paying tuition and as a matter of fact, gives them grants to fund their education. The State also lowers the standards of admission for them. Recently the University of California at Riverside instituted a two year program---TWO YEARS-- for illegals only buy which they could quality for medical school. So do you want to have your kids treated by an affirmative action doctor with two years medical school?
The State of California starts each fiscal year billions upon billions of dollars in the hole because of illegal aliens. Why do you think our taxes are so high? We have the worst schools and worst roads in the nation which is all the State is mandated to do.
So, finally, digest this image: Illegal Aliens are prioritized over the homeless in California. Just think about that.
Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 15:22
1) They're here to do the jobs Americans won't
2) Demographic Destiny and overt invasion is okay, as long as we get cheap lawn-mowing and housekeepers
Amirite, fellow C-conservatives?
And what are these "jobs nobody else will do"? They work on plantations owned by a few families occupying vast tracks of land, mostly in the Central Valley but also in Wine Country. These plantation owners demand cheap water, and I mean almost zero cost, they demand special trade laws, they demand local communities educate and feed their workers and their families. Rural towns are submerged by these costs. In a fair world these plantation owners could not make a living and would be forced to sell their plantations for subdivisions. Then the State would get some revenue. Fruit, vegetables, rice (yes rice with all that cheap water)???? Buy them from Chile. The illegals could travel down there and work.
Outlander Systems
11-07-19, 15:22
1) They're here to do the jobs Americans won't
2) Demographic Destiny and overt invasion is okay, as long as we get cheap lawn-mowing and housekeepers
Amirite, fellow C-conservatives?
And what are these "jobs nobody else will do"? They work on plantations owned by a few families occupying vast tracks of land, mostly in the Central Valley but also in Wine Country. These plantation owners demand cheap water, and I mean almost zero cost, they demand special trade laws, they demand local communities educate and feed their workers and their families. Rural towns are submerged by these costs. In a fair world these plantation owners could not make a living and would be forced to sell their plantations for subdivisions. Then the State would get some revenue. Fruit, vegetables, rice (yes rice with all that cheap water)???? Buy them from Chile. The illegals could travel down there and work.
Mexico sends us unwanted people and drugs, both poisoning our culture and country. Mexico has always been the enemy. I said this in 2001 with the 9/11 hysteria. We got nothing for the billions flushed down the sewers of NYC and in the meantime you lost California.
Bring all the troops home from foreign countries. Set up a buffer zone 200 miles deep in Northern Mexico. Remove border towns and push them south. No water, no food, no highways, no railroads in that 200 miles. If Mexico gives us any shit, cruise missile them into the Stone Age, the OLD STONE AGE.
No more half measures, no more mr. nice guys, no more placating political correctness. No more worship of our military in foreign campaigns---they can volunteer for that on their own. Regarding our military, it is time to defend this country and anyone not defending this country as ICE, the Border Patrol, and the Coast Guard is doing is not defending this country but instead some other country. Let them give offer "thanks for your service".
That's right. If our military should be deployed anywhere it's to our southern border.
Will, you are a good guy so please don't take this as a personal attack. But one thing is for certain. You are not in California.
Here, all our elementary schools educate second generation illegals. They are swamping our educational standards and funds. Our prisons contain a majority illegal alien population content. Then there is parole-probation. There is gang enforcement costs, There are illegal drug task forces dealing with labs, smuggling, and groves. There is welfare. There is subsidized housing--for which illegals get priority. Sure, Mexican men work like dogs but illegals never earn enough money "doing jobs nobody else will do" to even feed their children. We have food stamps and food banks to do this.
And what are these "jobs nobody else will do"? They work on plantations owned by a few families occupying vast tracks of land, mostly in the Central Valley but also in Wine Country. These plantation owners demand cheap water, and I mean almost zero cost, they demand special trade laws, they demand local communities educate and feed their workers and their families. Rural towns are submerged by these costs. In a fair world these plantation owners could not make a living and would be forced to sell their plantations for subdivisions. Then the State would get some revenue. Fruit, vegetables, rice (yes rice with all that cheap water)???? Buy them from Chile. The illegals could travel down there and work.
Then there is the issue of access to resources. The State of California under Communist dictatorship gives priority in hiring to illegals and demands this of the private sector. They also allow illegals into our state funded colleges without paying tuition and as a matter of fact, gives them grants to fund their education. The State also lowers the standards of admission for them. Recently the University of California at Riverside instituted a two year program---TWO YEARS-- for illegals only buy which they could quality for medical school. So do you want to have your kids treated by an affirmative action doctor with two years medical school?
The State of California starts each fiscal year billions upon billions of dollars in the hole because of illegal aliens. Why do you think our taxes are so high? We have the worst schools and worst roads in the nation which is all the State is mandated to do.
So, finally, digest this image: Illegal Aliens are prioritized over the homeless in California. Just think about that.
Some leftist, do gooders, public officials have been bought off.
Will, you are a good guy so please don't take this as a personal attack. But one thing is for certain. You are not in California.
Here, all our elementary schools educate second generation illegals. They are swamping our educational standards and funds. Our prisons contain a majority illegal alien population content. Then there is parole-probation. There is gang enforcement costs, There are illegal drug task forces dealing with labs, smuggling, and groves. There is welfare. There is subsidized housing--for which illegals get priority. Sure, Mexican men work like dogs but illegals never earn enough money "doing jobs nobody else will do" to even feed their children. We have food stamps and food banks to do this.
And what are these "jobs nobody else will do"? They work on plantations owned by a few families occupying vast tracks of land, mostly in the Central Valley but also in Wine Country. These plantation owners demand cheap water, and I mean almost zero cost, they demand special trade laws, they demand local communities educate and feed their workers and their families. Rural towns are submerged by these costs. In a fair world these plantation owners could not make a living and would be forced to sell their plantations for subdivisions. Then the State would get some revenue. Fruit, vegetables, rice (yes rice with all that cheap water)???? Buy them from Chile. The illegals could travel down there and work.
Then there is the issue of access to resources. The State of California under Communist dictatorship gives priority in hiring to illegals and demands this of the private sector. They also allow illegals into our state funded colleges without paying tuition and as a matter of fact, gives them grants to fund their education. The State also lowers the standards of admission for them. Recently the University of California at Riverside instituted a two year program---TWO YEARS-- for illegals only buy which they could quality for medical school. So do you want to have your kids treated by an affirmative action doctor with two years medical school?
The State of California starts each fiscal year billions upon billions of dollars in the hole because of illegal aliens. Why do you think our taxes are so high? We have the worst schools and worst roads in the nation which is all the State is mandated to do.
So, finally, digest this image: Illegal Aliens are prioritized over the homeless in California. Just think about that.
That's cuz CA is fuc%#d, but it does not really alter what I was saying however. The Bracero program initiated in 1942, between the United States and Mexico and additional the Migrant Labor Agreement that followed encouraged Mexican workers to come to the US and work. The various industries benefit from ongoing cheap labor, and there's never been a nation of any note not built on the work of slaves, indentured types, or immigrant labor to do the work others can't or will not do for little $. That it's come to bite us in the ass, worse so in some locations vs others, comes as no surprised and is to be expected. The people in say NH don't care about your high taxes and just want their cheap lettuce, and drugs. ;)
But the immigrants brought into Germany, UK, France etc, all there for the same reason, do crappy labor work cheap and that's the major reason they're allowed in at all. In socialist chit holes it's worse of course, which is why they have the immigrant labor doing the work, as well as high unemployment rates, the lose lose of socialism.
This is a good read imo & gives a good opinion of a mexican civilian's opinion on the matter...I disagree with chivis in the fact that Mexico is passive & just accepts it. I feel if you gave those people a 2nd amendment then they would take their country back in 2 years time & THAT likely scares the mex govt more than their current issues with the narcos. I worked in mex for 15 years & lived on the border for 50. It's not lack of pride keeping the country from failing. It is the laws of their founding fathers that are haunting them. Grenades & rpg's are a plenty everyday in that country, but let's forbid an armed populace?? All you need to know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lebaron family is more Mexican than American--and other points of contention
Op-Ed by Chivis Martinez Borderland Beat
Let it be known, I do not want to write this Op-Ed.
Covering the Lebaron massacre story, and moderating the over 1000 comments that followed has been eye-opening. Even to a long time narco-blogger such as myself.
I purposely posted reports from the U.S., Mexico and global contributions. I did this to provide differences in reporting, which I always find interesting.
The amount of racism, “whataboutisms”, Americans vs Mexicans, and now blame the victims are staggering.
First point of misinformation was the spin… “9 Americans killed by Mexican Cartel”.
Say What??
OK, while technically correct, it is fundamentally incorrect. The Lebaron family is more Mexican citizen than American. One only has to understand that even after this tragedy, they are staying put, in their homeland of Mexico.
I saw two members of the Lebaron family giving interviews. I can’t recall one name but the other was Daniel. A question was asked of them if they would now move to “America”. Daniel seemed perplexed as to why one would ask such a question. “No. Mexico is our home, we have been here over 100 years."
And that’s the focal point of my argument. The Lebaron family is more Mexican citizen than American.
No one is getting that element correct. “Dual citizens” would be accurate, if one must.
Blame the victim
Of the 1000 comments I received, 28 wrote in about the family’s history of violence, although I am sure the majority has heard of troubles in the family. Those comments were from outside Mexico, and many pointed to a 12 year old documentary.
I chose not to post those comments, and chose not to focus on any trouble the family had in the past with some of their members. I felt it was ill-timed, and unnecessary. I know that the Mexican government and narcos would love the attention to be shifted from them onto the bad history of some members of the Lebaron family.
A popular west coast newspaper chose to focus on the criminal element of some of the members.
Narcos want to know where to send the thank you flowers.
Shameful.
And at least 28 followers of Borderland Beat latched on to this aspect of the story giving narcos a pass.
Yet, from Mexico we received 2 dozen comments from those who know the family personally or live close to them, they hail Julian Lebaron as a good man, a humanitarian, working for the people’s land rights.
One such comment:
“My family is from Chihuahua not far from Galeana where the LeBaron family has a colony at. They are hardworking humble people I have personally met and interacted with many from their community. This was not La Linea because ALL of the heads of La Linea know and respect the family for their help and actions in the communities of that area. Either ways Mexico’s corrupt politicians will not let the U.S get involved because it will uncover a lot more than cartel activities. It will uncover lists and names of corrupt politicians. I agree with Trump on this one, you need a REAL military to take control because as sad as it is Mexico can’t or doesn’t want to deal with it.”
This is our time folks! World attention is on Mexico and the atrocities generated by organized crime, let’s not lose sight of this! We know these ghastly acts of violence happen on a regular basis in Mexico, Borderland Beat has faithfully reported as many as we could, but unless it is so monstrous, such as the 35 bodies dumped in Boca del Rio, Veracruz, it will not make the world stage.
By the way, the attorney general later said in an interview that those 35 were innocents unconnected to organized crime. Two men had minor offense records, one for stealing bricks.
They were used as props, they were easy pickings, compliant as the municipal police picked them up and delivered them to El Mencho’s CJNG enforcer group at the time calling themselves “Mata Zetas’ or Zeta killers.
It is much less messy for corrupt cops to pick up law abiding citizens for these showing kills. Shortly after the massacre, the entire force was terminated and the feds took over for a while.
However, if one looks for reporting the press outside Mexico, the reporting was not updated, or revised from the original premise of 35 Zetas killed and dumped in front of the World Trading Center.
Trump surprise
I was stunned when Trump’ tweet to AMLO was sent to me.
But I was not surprised at AMLO’s reply, the president who thinks hugs not guns is the answer.
For the record, he has implemented valuable programs, and I think it is only fair to give him his full term before judgement. BUT, I don’t think he will ever find another U.S. president willing to go hand and hand with Mexico to fight cartels.
It took me back to a time I was at my Coahuila office with my staff about 6 years ago. One of them asked me if it was true that the U.S. military was coming to Mexico to fight the narcos.
Apparently this was a rumor.
I said “No. That will never happen. Mexico is a sovereign nation, they would have to ask for help and then it would have to be approved in the U.S.”
She asked, “Why does Mexico have these problems and U.S. doesn’t?” (speaking in generalities of course)
I answered, “In my opinion, the absence of rule of law is directly related to the apathy of Mexico’s people. The populous accepts criminality as something that can’t be changed, thereby have insulated themselves by disinterest --- unless it happens to their family.”
“In the U.S people care. People become involved. People are willing to die for our freedom and welfare of our nation.”
“I don’t see that in Mexico. That is perplexing to me; We Mexicans are big-hearted, warm and loving souls by nature. Yet want nothing to do with fighting the evil of the nation. Oh the dichotomy.”
I would like to interject a bit of nervous laughter was the response. No one said it was not true.
A book I read “Manana Forever?: Mexico and the Mexicans” it illustrates how everyday behavior is altered when a Mexican national comes to the U.S. That even small things, such as assuring trash is deposited in a trash receptacle, because it is the right and lawful thing to do. For the majority there is a mind shift--- because it is expected.
“Just because they were white”
This is the complaint I received most often. And yes, there is some meat on that bone. History demonstrates little media interest in the victims of Mexico, but by placing the “American” label on the tragedy, and blonde, blue eyed faces, the story exploded.
However, one can’t lose sight of the prize. If you care about Mexico, care about the countless victims in Mexico, and the fact that narco violence is at an all-time high, and although he was not involved, that Mencho is the greatest security threat ever facing Mexico (I wrote this 5 years ago and not changed my opinion), and then we should welcome the attention, and grin and bear the flawed way that got us here.
Averageman
11-08-19, 09:24
It's pretty convenient today to look at foreign agricultural workers who are here illegally and talk about how they are living in near slavery and "The Man" is holding them back.
That only really works when you forget or were never educated about how a lot of our white population that are now Middle Class today, worked their way out of being share croppers. That didn't only happen in the South either, it was a major way to earn a living in what was/is the agricultural belt that encompasses three quarters of our Country.
It's amazing to me that we've given up on teaching history, we might learn that thirteen year old Irish kids were taken off of Immigration boats, handed a flag, a drum or a rifle and sent en mass to fight the Southern Armies in our Civil War, one might actually wonder if there might be an agenda behind it?
When you come to the conclusion that living where you are is no longer tenable and you decide to become some sort of international hobo, criminal and refugee, no one owes you a damned thing.
You all see that?
A BRAVE cop who arrested El Chapo’s son – sparking a bloody cartel firefight – has been shot 155 times in a brutal car park execution.
Video footage shows the moment a red car, driven by gangsters, follows a white car into a shopping centre in Mexico, before two gunmen ambush the officer.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10299827/cop-arrested-el-chapos-son-cartel-shot-155-times-brutal-car-park-execution/
You all see that?
A BRAVE cop who arrested El Chapo’s son – sparking a bloody cartel firefight – has been shot 155 times in a brutal car park execution.
Video footage shows the moment a red car, driven by gangsters, follows a white car into a shopping centre in Mexico, before two gunmen ambush the officer.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10299827/cop-arrested-el-chapos-son-cartel-shot-155-times-brutal-car-park-execution/
I think we should just give them what they want and all this would end.
I think we should just give them what they want and all this would end.
What do they want besides more $?
What do they want besides more $?
According to the Mexican President they want hugs.
Outlander Systems
11-08-19, 12:07
Lmfao!
I think we should just give them what they want and all this would end.
You all see that?
A BRAVE cop who arrested El Chapo’s son – sparking a bloody cartel firefight – has been shot 155 times in a brutal car park execution.
Video footage shows the moment a red car, driven by gangsters, follows a white car into a shopping centre in Mexico, before two gunmen ambush the officer.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10299827/cop-arrested-el-chapos-son-cartel-shot-155-times-brutal-car-park-execution/
155 empties? American 180's or just hadn't swept up after prior shootings?
I see President Obrador's "hugs" are working just fine...
Grand58742
11-08-19, 13:08
1) They're here to do the jobs Americans won't
2) Demographic Destiny and overt invasion is okay, as long as we get cheap lawn-mowing and housekeepers
Amirite, fellow C-conservatives?
I always love the "they do the jobs Americans won't" argument.
They do the jobs Americans feel they are better than doing. Sorry, but plenty of food has been put on the tables of millions of Americans that performed "menial labor" for decades. But this day in age custodial, construction, landscaping, etc are "beneath" Americans who would rather rely on public assistance over taking a job that helps get them out of a hole. Furthermore, parents (yes, my generation is guilty of it) are coddling their children to think "you are too good for that job."
"The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny."
I always love the "they do the jobs Americans won't" argument.
They do the jobs Americans feel they are better than doing. Sorry, but plenty of food has been put on the tables of millions of Americans that performed "menial labor" for decades. But this day in age custodial, construction, landscaping, etc are "beneath" Americans who would rather rely on public assistance over taking a job that helps get them out of a hole. Furthermore, parents (yes, my generation is guilty of it) are coddling their children to think "you are too good for that job."
"The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny."
There's no shame in being a ditch digger. There is shame in being a terrible ditch digger, which is what most of these pampered elitists would be.
155 empties? American 180's or just hadn't swept up after prior shootings?
Looking at the vid, how short it was, even if they had both gone full auto and dumped a 30rnd mag, changed bags and did it again, still not 155. That did catch my attention. Regardless, enough rnds to kill dude...
Averageman
11-08-19, 15:15
I always love the "they do the jobs Americans won't" argument.
They do the jobs Americans feel they are better than doing. Sorry, but plenty of food has been put on the tables of millions of Americans that performed "menial labor" for decades. But this day in age custodial, construction, landscaping, etc are "beneath" Americans who would rather rely on public assistance over taking a job that helps get them out of a hole. Furthermore, parents (yes, my generation is guilty of it) are coddling their children to think "you are too good for that job."
"The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny."
How many generations does your family have to go back to find a coal miner, ditch digger, or some sort of mill worker?
Not many got off the boat with a silver spoon in their mouth, why should they have it any different if they are not lifting themselves out of their poverty?
I'm also pretty sure when the LeBaron family got to Mexico, they dug their fair share of ditches.
Looking at the vid, how short it was, even if they had both gone full auto and dumped a 30rnd mag, changed bags and did it again, still not 155. That did catch my attention. Regardless, enough rnds to kill dude...
Yeah very dead, but that headline is beyond misleading. I was thinking an hour(s) long process similar to what was mentioned in Kephart's Southern Highlanders about an eastern KY feud murder where the victim got shot in non vital areas a bit at a time till deceased.
1. Declare the Cartels a terrorist organization.
2. Issue No Travel Advisory for U.S. citizens to Mexico.
3. Build the wall.
4.Drone Strikes on known targets.
5. Highlight the corruption of the Mexican Government.
6. Seize cartel funds.
7. Blockade and inspect shipments into Mexico from China.
8. Declare MS13 other Mexican and Central American gangs as terrorists.
9. Declare war on the Cartels through Congress and issue orders of any dealers or associates with drugs, or human trafficking dealings with the cartels as traitors and enemies of the U.S.
10. Legalize marijuana in the U.S.
Works for me.
Yeah very dead, but that headline is beyond misleading. I was thinking an hour(s) long process similar to what was mentioned in Kephart's Southern Highlanders about an eastern KY feud murder where the victim got shot in non vital areas a bit at a time till deceased.
Where they came up with 155 is a mystery. My WAG would be closer to 20-30.
Averageman
11-09-19, 18:36
Where they came up with 155 is a mystery. My WAG would be closer to 20-30.
A lot of this stuff like shooting someone some crazy amount of time, beheading them or hanging them upside down with their gentiles in their mouths isn't so much to kill them, but to instill fear that the next guy isn't going to make the same mistake.
If it's all about creating as much fear as possible, there's no such thing as overkill?
Where they came up with 155 is a mystery. My WAG would be closer to 20-30.
Yeah, looks that way to me too.
The late 19th century feud victim soaked up 27 (best I can recall) before succumbing...not quickly either, so the 155 was mind boggling.
A lot of this stuff like shooting someone some crazy amount of time, beheading them or hanging them upside down with their gentiles in their mouths isn't so much to kill them, but to instill fear that the next guy isn't going to make the same mistake.
If it's all about creating as much fear as possible, there's no such thing as overkill?
True, but the article headline of 155 hits, body of the article mention of 155 empties, and the video footage don't jibe.
Video looked bad enough to me, but assuming a reporter or someone had to embellish.
The United States is full.
Averageman
11-11-19, 16:44
Well it better not be, at least for the time being the LeBron's are leaving Mexico.
Business as usual in Mexico. The only reason this even made the news up here is because the shootees happen to be american. The cartels will slaughter anybody.
I listened to an interview about the LeBaron murders with former DEA agent Michael Levin (who has some serious cred, look him up). He says this was a targeted hit to send a clear message because there was an informant inside that family.
teufelhund1918
11-14-19, 06:28
The whole situation is utterly baffling to me. There are so many different facets to this. As bad as it is in Mexico, the problem is just as bad here in the US. We have the cartels working with MS13, Surrenos, Mexican Mafia and other gangs here in the USA to establish drug routes here. There are Cartel manufacturing and grow operations in our national forests and parks. Cartel submarines carrying tons of drugs into the US. Illegals carrying drugs across the border for the cartels when they come into the country. I know from talking to LE that they know what is going on, but nothing seems to get done about it. It's like when we take one step forward, they are already 50 ahead of us. To make it even worse, our politicians, like Pelosi and others, are working with that creep Soros and his organizations like La Familia and others to put together these caravans in Central America that end up walking into the cartel areas and get taken advantage of. They mule drugs across the border for the cartels. They women get raped. When they get up in the USA, alot of times they will be taken hostage and made to call their families to demand a ransom be paid. Happens all the time.
Just here in VA, the cartels have established drug routes up all the interstates. Galax is overrun with cartel people. Out where I'm at, the Mex restaurants are laundering money for MS 13 and have been doing it for years. They actually own a hotel in Pound VA where their thugs that get into trouble in northern VA can run to and hide out. MS13 is all over northern VA, not to mention cartel people. I was talking with someone else here recently that said MS13 it trying to take over control in the Shenandoah Valley. I just wonder when enough is enough and something real gets done about the situation.
I guess the whole thing pretty much revolves around addicts here in the USA demand for drugs and nothing will get done til that is addressed.
teufelhund1918
11-14-19, 06:28
opps. double tap.
Averageman
11-14-19, 07:32
I believe the number of kidnappings in Tucson has increased rather dramatically.
Johnny Rico
12-27-19, 22:37
Municipal police chief arrested for suspected links to murders.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/municipal-police-chief-arrested-over-mexican-mormon-massacre/ar-BBYp6ES?ocid=spartanntp
Anyone surprised?
Municipal police chief arrested for suspected links to murders.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/municipal-police-chief-arrested-over-mexican-mormon-massacre/ar-BBYp6ES?ocid=spartanntp
Anyone surprised?
Not even a little. Seems like 90% of Mexican LE are on the take.
Not even a little. Seems like 90% of Mexican LE are on the take.
Ranks right up there with the Saudis sentencing 5 guys to death for the murder of Khashoggi. In both cases they are sacrificial lambs to keep the heat off of higher-ups.
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