View Full Version : What's the "service" life of a magazine?******MAGAZINE MANIPULATION
I know the life of a magazine will vary greatly depending on how it's treated but I assume there has to be some mil requirement as to the performance of a magazine.
Assuming a well treated magazine, will it function for 5000 rnds, 10000 rnds, ...
SB
I don't know if there's any published data on service life in regards to cycles, etc.
Alot of it depends on the quality of materials and the environment/use and/or abuse it's subjected to.
I have three G17 mags that easily have 60k or so through them, work 100%.
AR mags, been using Pmags, about 10k through 5 and then a collection of old GI's that between the 10-15, somewhere over a buttload.
Life has been tuff for them, sand, gravel, concrete, etc
....
Alot of it depends on the quality of materials and the environment/use and/or abuse it's subjected to.....
Dropping mags on the ground is a major contributing factor to failure.
Also, slamming them forcefully into the gun Hollywood style is a no-no.
Take care of them and keep them clean, and they should last a long time.
The only ones I've ever had fail are the USGI AR-15 mags. They cracked
at the top rear near the feed lips. I have no idea how many rounds were
thru them, but it was a lot.
Silly as it sounds, I still use magazines in my personal ARs that I was given in 1992 by a former Ranger who carried them in Vietnam. Only one of the six didn't work, and it would be an easy fix if I hadn't stuffed it away somewhere so many years ago. I have quite a few rounds through them, and no telling how many he put through them in the time he owned them. My newer magazines I probably put 25,000 rounds/year through at work without problems. I'm real impressed lately with the Brownell's magazines with the Magpul upgrades. I think they will have real staying power in my kit. Just stay away from the HK steel mags!
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:20
Dropping mags on the ground is a major contributing factor to failure.
Also, slamming them forcefully into the gun Hollywood style is a no-no.
Take care of them and keep them clean, and they should last a long time.
The only ones I've ever had fail are the USGI AR-15 mags. They cracked
at the top rear near the feed lips. I have no idea how many rounds were
thru them, but it was a lot.
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:22
Silly as it sounds, I still use magazines in my personal ARs that I was given in 1992 by a former Ranger who carried them in Vietnam. Only one of the six didn't work, and it would be an easy fix if I hadn't stuffed it away somewhere so many years ago. I have quite a few rounds through them, and no telling how many he put through them in the time he owned them. My newer magazines I probably put 25,000 rounds/year through at work without problems. I'm real impressed lately with the Brownell's magazines with the Magpul upgrades. I think they will have real staying power in my kit. Just stay away from the HK steel mags!
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 00:30
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
I guess "push/pull" doesn't work in Alaska.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:42
I guess "push/pull" doesn't work in Alaska.
Please go back and read by post before posting next time. You will see I mentioned pushing the mag in hard (push) and pulling down on it to make sure its seated (pull). It must be late and you must have missed that part of my post. I have been a firearms instructor for more than 6 years now and the most common human induced malfunction I have seen cops make on the line is failure to seat the magazine.
Pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 00:49
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
You wrote "slam" - not "push." Two different concepts.
Yes, I know you are a firearms instructor because you say that a lot in defense of many concepts that you post about and get called on.
And don't talk down your nose to me.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 00:53
You wrote "slam" - not "push." Two different concepts.
Yes, I know you are a firearms instructor because you say that a lot in defense of many concepts that you post about and get called on.
And don't talk down your nose to me.
Well its not a gentle push. It is more of a slam. Yes I am a firearms instructor. What do you do for a living?
Pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 00:57
Read my bio.
You should contact Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers so you can inform them that they're doing it wrong.
BTW, slamming the bottom of an AR magazine can cause rounds to jump out the top of the magazine, sometimes dramatically so ("like a volcano").
Since we're talking about magazine serviceability, any body know the answers to these questions?
1. Aluminum mag body/feed lip thickness
2. cproducts steel, british steel, singapore steel, and HK steel mag body/feed lip thickness
3. thermold, Pmag, lancaster feed lip thickness
I have some cproduct SS mags that look awfully thin, like I could bend them with my fingers.
BTW, is it possible to bend good quality alum./steel feed lips with your fingers? I'd rather not try. :D
IrishDevil
11-16-08, 01:03
I believe the whole "slam" to seat the mag comes from loading 30rds. With a GI mag loaded to 28 it only takes a firm push/pull. Even though they're designed for 30rds, I download PMAG's. It takes longer to "slam" mags than it does to push/pull, same goes for slapping the bolt release.
In my experience slamming a magazine into the magazine well, will cause rounds to pop loose (especially in worn GI mags) and will then usually cause a failure to chamber. When most mags to include H/K steel mags are loaded to 28 rounds seating them is usually not an issue even when the bolt is forward. With PMAG's 30 rounds hasn't been an issue either.
my caliper reads .0655 on pmags. all my GI mags are boxed up, and i don't have any other kind for ARs.
i suppose if you really pressed on the ****ers they might bend, but not without real effort, if at all. i'd say the answer is "no."
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 01:31
Read my bio.
You should contact Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers so you can inform them that they're doing it wrong.
BTW, slamming the bottom of an AR magazine can cause rounds to jump out the top of the magazine, sometimes dramatically so ("like a volcano").
Forgive me I should have used the words firmly push in rather than slam.
Pat
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
pat
I've seen PMAGs crack in extreme cold, but always under conditions that would also render a USGI mag inoperable. I hope to have a cold chamber in hand very soon to conduct more thorough first-hand testing.
Since we're getting to that time again, PM me your address and I'll send you a few mags to play with this winter. My primary concern is how it functions at those temperatures. Everything has its breaking point - if that so happens to be a -50 degree fully loaded 5 foot drop test on the feed lips, that circumstance may just be rare enough to be inconsequential.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 01:33
In my experience slamming a magazine into the magazine well, will cause rounds to pop loose (especially in worn GI mags) and will then usually cause a failure to chamber. When most mags to include H/K steel mags are loaded to 28 rounds seating them is usually not an issue even when the bolt is forward. With PMAG's 30 rounds hasn't been an issue either.
I download all my 30 round mags to 28 even the P mags. Just the way I was trained. I have had the malfunction you state happen with my AR10 and it happens pretty much every time unless I gently insert the mag. I always attributed the problem to faulty mag design by Armalite (M14 mags reworked to be AR10 mags) rather than a technique error.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 01:42
I believe the whole "slam" to seat the mag comes from loading 30rds. With a GI mag loaded to 28 it only takes a firm push/pull. Even though they're designed for 30rds, I download PMAG's. It takes longer to "slam" mags than it does to push/pull, same goes for slapping the bolt release.
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
I agree with the AR-10 mag assessment. We have them here and they are a PITA. As for downloading the PMAG's to 28 rds. That is how I was trained also until I started using them. There just isn't a need and I like the extra 2o rds. that it gives me by not doing it.
I download all my 30 round mags to 28 even the P mags. Just the way I was trained. I have had the malfunction you state happen with my AR10 and it happens pretty much every time unless I gently insert the mag. I always attributed the problem to faulty mag design by Armalite (M14 mags reworked to be AR10 mags) rather than a technique error.
Pat
I assume that you are talking about a reload when the bolt is locked to the rear? If so, another method is the simply grasp the charging handle and let it fly forward.
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
I assume that you are talking about a reload when the bolt is locked to the rear? If so, another method is the simply grasp the charging handle and let it fly forward.
ack.. charging it just gets you all tangled up in your gun
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 02:14
I assume that you are talking about a reload when the bolt is locked to the rear? If so, another method is the simply grasp the charging handle and let it fly forward.
I have found that using the charging handle does not always work with dirty guns. It seems that running the charging handle puts drag on the bolt carrier and if the gun is fairly dirty after a long day of training it does not always go into battery. Have you ever noticed this? Anyway talk to you guys later. I have to wake up and drive to a IDPA match in 6 hours.
Pat
To be honest I have never seen that happen. But, it is not my PREFERRED method only an alternative method. I have had zero issues hitting my bolt release in high stress situations.
I have found that using the charging handle does not always work with dirty guns. It seems that running the charging handle puts drag on the bolt carrier and if the gun is fairly dirty after a long day of training it does not always go into battery. Have you ever noticed this? Anyway talk to you guys later. I have to wake up and drive to a IDPA match in 6 hours.
Pat
Jay Cunningham
11-16-08, 04:15
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
Press the bolt release with your support side thumb.
We disagree again with the "fine motor skills" thing. Aren't pressing the trigger, manipulating the safety and performing a tac relaod all examples of fine motor skills?
But this discussion is now off-topic from the service life of a magazine.
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
pat
The problem I/we were having with the steel mags is when you drop them they bend and stay bent rather than pop back like aluminum. I don't use the thermold magazines because our R&D section tested them and under high volumes of fire common to our pre-deployment training, the feed lips were melting and warping. I figure I'll stick with good old aluminum magazines with upgraded springs and followers and call it a day. They work in all temperatures, they work in all environments, and they're relatively cheap, even if they aren't the flavor of the month.
Cagemonkey
11-16-08, 08:56
That is funny because my HK steel mags have held up just fine over the last 4 years. I have heard that the springs get weak but I have not had that problem. In fact I prefer them for wintertime use because P Mags crack in the extreme cold. I use P Mags as summer mags and as range mags.
patI got some HK steel mags and they work fine. Don't leave them loaded for a long time (even down loaded), the spring weakened and the mag wouldn't lock my bolt. GI mags with magpul upgrades are good to go. I just ordered some Lancer mags. I like the idea of the steel feed lips. Seems to work for Glocks and AK poly mags.
Springs do not weaken from leaving them loaded. Springs weaken due to the compression and decompression of the spring which eventually causes them to lose elasticity. If the spring was weak it is because they were crappy or had been used alot.
I got some HK steel mags and they work fine. Don't leave them loaded for a long time (even down loaded), the spring weakened and the mag wouldn't lock my bolt. GI mags with magpul upgrades are good to go. I just ordered some Lancer mags. I like the idea of the steel feed lips. Seems to work for Glocks and AK poly mags.
Have you guys informed MAGPUL about this? IIRC they did testing as well and I don't believe that this issue was brought up. I could be wrong of course. On the other hand I wouldn't just be concerned about the mags at that point I would be concerned about the weapon as whole.
The problem I/we were having with the steel mags is when you drop them they bend and stay bent rather than pop back like aluminum. I don't use the trendy P Mags because our R&D section tested them and under high volumes of fire common to our pre-deployment training, the feed lips were melting and warping. I figure I'll stick with good old aluminum magazines with upgraded springs and followers and call it a day. They work in all temperatures, they work in all environments, and they're relatively cheap, even if they aren't the flavor of the month.
You wrote "slam" - not "push." Two different concepts.
Yes, I know you are a firearms instructor because you say that a lot in defense of many concepts that you post about and get called on.
And don't talk down your nose to me.
Listen, you're supposed to slam them as hard as you can. Didn't you watch Magnum PI? Oh, if you want to know my credentials...I'm an electrician, who used to watch Magnum PI reruns because I was under 10 and normally in bed when it originally aired on Thursdays at 7:30 Pacific Time.
:)
I know the life of a magazine will vary greatly depending on how it's treated but I assume there has to be some mil requirement as to the performance of a magazine.
Assuming a well treated magazine, will it function for 5000 rnds, 10000 rnds, ...
SB
The Military ASSUMED that the GI Alum mag would be used 1 time and then tossed (on an emergency reload).
People are now hoarding mags like never before and the alum. mags just were not meant for extended use.
Generally the first thing to go on the mag is the spring. Since the cheapest possible spring is used (and only has about 10% of its life left when new). Next will be the feed lips (cracking and or spreading).
The two best things you can do for a GI mag is put in a quality spring (Like ISMI) and a Magpul follower.
C4
Slamming the magazine home hard is how you are supposed to load a gun. You won't break it. IF you don't slam the mag home what happens is the mag does not get seated properly about half the time under stress. The proper procedure is to slam in hard and pull down to make sure they are seated.
Pat
This is a negative. Slamming a mag into the weapon is sure way to cause a malfunction and or cause damage to the magazine.
Insert the mag (without letting it ever leave your hand) and then pull down to make it is locked in place.
C4
Well its not a gentle push. It is more of a slam. Yes I am a firearms instructor. What do you do for a living?
Pat
Police firearms instructors can be some of the VERY worst for informationl. They believe that because they have a "title" that they instantly know everything. This would be incorrect.
I would suggest seeking out training from the likes of Vickers or Hackathorn (to name a few).
C4
I was also trained to slap the bolt release and that is what I train my guys to do. What do you use as an alternative that is reliable when you lose your fine motor skills under stress?
Pat
"Slapping" the bolt release is a no go as well. It is VERY easy to miss the tiny button with the palm of your hand. This is why quality instructors teach the use of your thumb to release the bolt. Since the gentlemen teaching this technique have all seen combat at the highest level, I believe they know what they are talking about.
C4
To be honest I have never seen that happen. But, it is not my PREFERRED method only an alternative method. I have had zero issues hitting my bolt release in high stress situations.
Using the CH to release is of course an alternative to using the bolt release, but I would view it as my second option strictly for the fact that it is easy to "ride the bolt" and not allow the power of the buffer spring to drive the BCG home.
C4
Grant,
I agree and that is why I made my statement. I was expecting to get "sniped at" for not having an alternative. :D. As you have stated those in the know who have BTDT know that utilizing the bolt release properly is a non-issue.
I won't say anything more or else I may be labeled a "meanie".
Using the CH to release is of course an alternative to using the bolt release, but I would view it as my second option strictly for the fact that it is easy to "ride the bolt" and not allow the power of the buffer spring to drive the BCG home.
C4
Grant,
I agree and that is why I made my statement. I was expecting to get "sniped at" for not having an alternative. :D. As you have stated those in the know who have BTDT know that utilizing the bolt release properly is a non-issue.
I won't say anything more or else I may be labeled a "meanie".
Its good to play bad guy once in awhile so have at it. ;)
C4
While this may not directly give an overall average of the service-life of a magazine, it does give an indirect indication.
John Farnam's website quotes an anonymous worker at a factory test-range, where they fire "hundreds of thousands" of rounds each year, presumably all from AR15-type rifles.
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/25Jan08.html
"Even well-made aluminum magazines eventually flair-out at the top. At that point, they become scrap metal!
Our preference is stainless-steel magazines! Our favorite manufacturer is C-Products (_www.cproductsllc.com_ (http://www.cproductsllc.com) ). A steel magazine will last many times longer than those made of aluminum or plastic. Indeed, most plastic magazines split at the back (near the notch for the bolt hold-open) within five-thousand rounds.
Magpul claims their new plastic magazine adequately addresses all these issues. I sincerely hope they're right!"
~~~~~
Clearly, there are some issues here. Some users have had QC problems with C-Products magazines, so the above is only valid regarding a reliable C-Prod mag.
Given the above claim that "most" non-Magpul plastic mags fail within 5k, it MAY be safe to say that a good aluminum mag would last at least as long as that, maybe more, according to this anonymous source.
Sorry that no clear number has been given, but at least the anonymous source uses magazines to failure and probably does not abuse them.
Please do not interpret my post to indicate that C-Products mags are superior, nor do I endorse them. I'm simply relaying information that comes from a source which seems to have relevant experience and seems to be reliable. If one desires specific averages regarding the service life of non-abused magazines, it may be possible to call one of the big manufacturers and ask somebody at the test-fire facility.
Cagemonkey
11-16-08, 12:40
As an Armorer in the Marines back in 89-93 I used to have to post an armory guard at the end of duty each day. MC orders specified that the guard be issued two fully loaded 30rd mags. It was not uncommon for magazines to bulge and become difficult to remove and insert into the M16A2. Worst yet, it wasn't uncommon for the mag to literally explode while the guard was standing duty. With a base plate, spring/follower and cartridges getting scattered about. Leaving some poor Lcpl crawling on his hands and knees at we hours in the morning searching for all 30 rnds. We all know that loading 27/28 rnds. per mag would have made more sense, but orders are orders.
bkb0000 says the Pmag (I assume the lips) measure 0.0655 inches, which translate into 1.66mm
Why couldn't a steel magazine be made from a 1.5mm+ thick sheet of steel? Then heat treat it for hardening and there you go, one bad ass, reliable STANAG magazine. No worrying about lips flaring out, bending them as they drop to the ground, etc.
I guess "push/pull" doesn't work in Alaska.
Everything's tougher in Alaska! :p
Cagemonkey
11-16-08, 18:22
I got some Lancer mags on the way. They have steel feed lips molded in the plastic body of the magazine.
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 22:56
I got some HK steel mags and they work fine. Don't leave them loaded for a long time (even down loaded), the spring weakened and the mag wouldn't lock my bolt. GI mags with magpul upgrades are good to go. I just ordered some Lancer mags. I like the idea of the steel feed lips. Seems to work for Glocks and AK poly mags.
The magazine in my patrol rifle and the spare on my duty belt have been loaded for the last 3 years except when i am shooting them and I have not had problems. I do download to 28. I also like P Mags and GI mags and I have a few Lancer and they work fine too.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/magcollection.jpg
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 23:03
Press the bolt release with your support side thumb.
We disagree again with the "fine motor skills" thing. Aren't pressing the trigger, manipulating the safety and performing a tac relaod all examples of fine motor skills?
But this discussion is now off-topic from the service life of a magazine.
I sent you a PM on the subject. Take care. One thing I do know is most schools are moving away from doing tactical reloads. They are not realistic under real life stress conditions. I have reviewed my share of shootings in training and I have yet to see one where a tactical reload was even used much less made a difference. Slide lock reloads and speed reloads are what are important.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-16-08, 23:11
"Slapping" the bolt release is a no go as well. It is VERY easy to miss the tiny button with the palm of your hand. This is why quality instructors teach the use of your thumb to release the bolt. Since the gentlemen teaching this technique have all seen combat at the highest level, I believe they know what they are talking about.
C4
Grant even if you miss the tiny button 999 times out of 1000 the bolt still gets released by inertia and the reload goes just fine. I have never seen this technique fail in training. Try it some time. Lock the bolt back then hit the side of the reciever purposely missing the bolt release. As long as you have more strength than a typical 12 year old girl it will work just fine. My firearms instructors were also gun fight winners. One being Jeff Hall a former Vietnam Vet and a former Alaska State Trooper. He is currently a NRA Law Enforcement Instructor. We have different tiers of AR15's on a chart I have yet to see a chart rating instructors quality. As for combat there are no levels. If someone is trying to kill you its all pretty much the same and its not fun. Their are many right ways to do something and only a few wrong ones. Techniques are just tools in the tool box.
Pat
platinumdude
11-16-08, 23:36
So the old SPORTS is not true then?
SPORTS Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot
No Slapping. insert firmly, then pull? But tapping is still required right?
In my world, it's taught to seat and tug the magazine. beating, slapping, etc is discouraged as it causes problems as mentioned.
#1 reason to have to beat the magazine in--more than 28 in it, sometimes more than 30.
Thumb for the release, quicker for one and if the mag is indexed properly, your thumg is right there anyhow, might as well use it. Beer can or point finger along front edge method.
Slapping the paddle-shown, but not recommended. I've seen people beat the side of the weapon to no avail. And it takes longer to "wind up" for the strike.
Charge handle, understand the mindset, however, slow as well.
Typically, charge handle, slapping the paddle methods are reserved for the crowd that will get minimal training and/or it's known that they just picked the weapon up like it's a rock they found and will do the same next year.
If this hurts feelings--it's the way it is, that's all.
So the old SPORTS is not true then?
SPORTS Slap, Pull, Observe, Release, Tap, Shoot
No Slapping. insert firmly, then pull? But tapping is still required right?
The "tap" in SPORTS is referring to the forward assist, rarely used, maybe after a press check
Grant even if you miss the tiny button 999 times out of 1000 the bolt still gets released by inertia and the reload goes just fine.
Inertia?? To quote Glenn Beck: "REALLY???"
I have never seen this technique fail in training. Try it some time.
Have seen it fail and is why quality instructors do not recommend it.
Lock the bolt back then hit the side of the reciever purposely missing the bolt release. As long as you have more strength than a typical 12 year old girl it will work just fine. My firearms instructors were also gun fight winners. One being Jeff Hall a former Vietnam Vet and a former Alaska State Trooper. He is currently a NRA Law Enforcement Instructor. We have different tiers of AR15's on a chart I have yet to see a chart rating instructors quality.
All instructors are not created equal. Ones coming out of Delta would generally always be FIRST on the list in my book as they are most highly trained shooters in the US Military.
As for combat there are no levels. If someone is trying to kill you its all pretty much the same and its not fun. Their are many right ways to do something and only a few wrong ones. Techniques are just tools in the tool box.
Pat
There are actually ways and then right or more efficient ways to do something. Using the palm of your hand instead of your thumb is a "way."
C4
Typically, charge handle, slapping the paddle methods are reserved for the crowd that will get minimal training and/or it's known that they just picked the weapon up like it's a rock they found and will do the same next year.
If this hurts feelings--it's the way it is, that's all.
;)
C4
Jay Cunningham
11-17-08, 08:22
I sent you a PM on the subject. Take care. One thing I do know is most schools are moving away from doing tactical reloads. They are not realistic under real life stress conditions. I have reviewed my share of shootings in training and I have yet to see one where a tactical reload was even used much less made a difference. Slide lock reloads and speed reloads are what are important.
Pat
I am not sure about "most schools" moving away from TR's, but some are. Then again some schools teach lots of different things.
Personally, I think the term "tactical reload" has sort of a weird, played-out stigma attached to it now. I prefer the concept of ammunition management. It simply has to do with being switched on enough to minimize the need for emergency reloads or transitions.
Supposedly we "default to our level of training" (I believe that we do) so if we train to actively manage our ammo we should probably wind up doing it in "real life."
Jay Cunningham
11-17-08, 08:23
There are actually ways and then right or more efficient ways to do something. Using the palm of your hand instead of your thumb is a "way."
Agree - there is viable and then there is optimal.
My firearms instructors were also gun fight winners. One being Jeff Hall a former Vietnam Vet and a former Alaska State Trooper. He is currently a NRA Law Enforcement Instructor.
Since this thread was (mercifully) moved to the T&T section ...
I know Jeff. He gives one of the best survival mindset presentations I've ever seen. Agencies around the country have benefited directly or indirectly from his lectures at IALEFI conferences. Much of his program is based around the huge jump in success Alaska State Troopers had when they changed their default tactic from "run back to the car, then engage" to "start shooting immediately." Something about not getting shot in the back seems to improve one's chances to prevail in a gunfight, it turns out. Whodathunkit?
Not saying I agree with everything the guy teaches (he literally crosses himself every time he speaks Jeff Cooper's name, for heaven's sake :cool:) but he's definitely someone with a long and dedicated background in analyzing and solving unpleasant interpersonal conflicts.
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 13:58
Since this thread was (mercifully) moved to the T&T section ...
I know Jeff. He gives one of the best survival mindset presentations I've ever seen. Agencies around the country have benefited directly or indirectly from his lectures at IALEFI conferences. Much of his program is based around the huge jump in success Alaska State Troopers had when they changed their default tactic from "run back to the car, then engage" to "start shooting immediately." Something about not getting shot in the back seems to improve one's chances to prevail in a gunfight, it turns out. Whodathunkit?
Not saying I agree with everything the guy teaches (he literally crosses himself every time he speaks Jeff Cooper's name, for heaven's sake :cool:) but he's definitely someone with a long and dedicated background in analyzing and solving unpleasant interpersonal conflicts.
He is one of the best instructors I have had. Yes he is heavy into the Weaver Modern Technique doctern but it has worked well for him. Here in Alaska The combined hit ratio in actual gun fights of the Alaska State Troopers and the Anchorage Police Department is in the 80% range. The national average for LEO's is in the 20% range. We must be doing something right.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:00
I am not sure about "most schools" moving away from TR's, but some are. Then again some schools teach lots of different things.
Personally, I think the term "tactical reload" has sort of a weird, played-out stigma attached to it now. I prefer the concept of ammunition management. It simply has to do with being switched on enough to minimize the need for emergency reloads or transitions.
Supposedly we "default to our level of training" (I believe that we do) so if we train to actively manage our ammo we should probably wind up doing it in "real life."
You do default to your level of training. I think tactical reloads are stupid unless you are pretty sure you have shot everyone that needs to be shot and just want to top off your gun. In a leo setting we normally have plenty of ammo. Now if your in a military setting far away from a re-supply then tactical reloads make more sense.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:02
Inertia?? To quote Glenn Beck: "REALLY???"
Have seen it fail and is why quality instructors do not recommend it.
All instructors are not created equal. Ones coming out of Delta would generally always be FIRST on the list in my book as they are most highly trained shooters in the US Military.
There are actually ways and then right or more efficient ways to do something. Using the palm of your hand instead of your thumb is a "way."
C4
All instructors are not created equal. But I will judge for myself which I feel are quality and which are not. I don't care if someone was in Delta, Seals or what ever. I care about rather they can teach me to shoot better or not so I can survive a deadly encounter. I prefer instructors with LEO experience to military experience because their experience relates more to what I do.
Pat
You do default to your level of training. I think tactical reloads are stupid unless you are pretty sure you have shot everyone that needs to be shot and just want to top off your gun. In a leo setting we normally have plenty of ammo. Now if your in a military setting far away from a re-supply then tactical reloads make more sense.
Pat
Where the Tac reload comes into its own is if you have access to cover and are firing high volumes of rounds.
If there is no cover and you are actively engaged in a fight, you run the weapon to slide lock.
C4
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:08
Typically, charge handle, slapping the paddle methods are reserved for the crowd that will get minimal training and/or it's known that they just picked the weapon up like it's a rock they found and will do the same next year.
If this hurts feelings--it's the way it is, that's all.
No hurt feelings. Cops fit that group. Generally the firearms training LEO's receive is minimal at best and you have to cater to the lowest common denominator. I need to teach my guys techniques that they can remember and that will work for them with minimal training. The department does not give me the time or ammo to train them as I feel they should be. Personally I have paid my own way to get training. But its hard to get cops to do that generally.
Pat
All instructors are not created equal. But I will judge for myself which I feel are quality and which are not. I don't care if someone was in Delta, Seals or what ever. I care about rather they can teach me to shoot better or not so I can survive a deadly encounter. I prefer instructors with LEO experience to military experience because their experience relates more to what I do.
Pat
You are correct that just because someone was in unit XYZ, does not mean they are a good instuctor. Generally though, guys that have been doing the training thing for awhile and come from an elite .Mil background (like Vickers) do know what they are talking about.
Killing is killing. Accuracy is accuracy. In my eyes, I want the person that is the very best at these things. Generally, these people come out of the Military.
Also, Seals is a no no. It is SEAL's.
C4
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:10
Where the Tac reload comes into its own is if you have access to cover and are firing high volumes of rounds.
If there is no cover and you are actively engaged in a fight, you run the weapon to slide lock.
C4
I like speed loads far more. Dump that ammo and get the gun back into the fight as soon as possible. Shoot to slide lock if you have too. If you have a break in the action speed load that gun to get it full. In most LEO situations we have plenty of ammo.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:14
You are correct that just because someone was in unit XYZ, does not mean they are a good instuctor. Generally though, guys that have been doing the training thing for awhile and come from an elite .Mil background (like Vickers) do know what they are talking about.
Killing is killing. Accuracy is accuracy. In my eyes, I want the person that is the very best at these things. Generally, these people come out of the Military.
Also, Seals is a no no. It is SEAL's.
C4
Most of the best shooters truth be told have no military or law enforcement background. They are competition shooters who do it for fun. They may not know tactics but they know how to run the gun very efficiently. Nothing against the military but most of the training they have been given does not fit well into the LEO world. We play with a far different set of rules of engagement and we have a very different set of circumstances. That is why I would prefer instruction from someone with an LEO background as opposed to the military.
You mention Vickers. I have heard a lot of good things about him and I would like to take a class from him some day.
Pat
I like speed loads far more. Dump that ammo and get the gun back into the fight as soon as possible. Shoot to slide lock if you have too. If you have a break in the action speed load that gun to get it full. In most LEO situations we have plenty of ammo.
Pat
Since most Civy's and Cops only carry between 2-3 pistol mags, dumping rounds on the ground is a no go IMHO. You retain the magazine if it has ammo in it.
Looking at the LA shootout with the two AK yielding bad guys, the officers that were on scene first, quickly ran out of ammo. They also did not retain their spent mags. When they got more ammo, they had no mags and some of their weapons had the dreaded mag safety's in them and the ammo was USELESS! :rolleyes:
C4
Most of the best shooters truth be told have no military or law enforcement background. They are competition shooters who do it for fun. They may not know tactics but they know how to run the gun very efficiently. Nothing against the military but most of the training they have been given does not fit well into the LEO world. We play with a far different set of rules of engagement and we have a very different set of circumstances. That is why I would prefer instruction from someone with an LEO background as opposed to the military.
You mention Vickers. I have heard a lot of good things about him and I would like to take a class from him some day.
Pat
Civy Comp shooters are fast and accurate. Some of the applies to combat shooting and some of it does not.
I do not know any former .Mil instructor that teaches and is going to make you do a tactic (which is what we are talking about here) that does not jive with your Dept. set of rules.
They are teaching gun handling, manipulation, accuracy, moving and shooting, malfunction clearing, transitions, offhand shooting, use of cover, etc, etc. All of this applies to LE types (and civy's).
C4
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:26
Since most Civy's and Cops only carry between 2-3 pistol mags, dumping rounds on the ground is a no go IMHO. You retain the magazine if it has ammo in it.
Looking at the LA shootout with the two AK yielding bad guys, the officers that were on scene first, quickly ran out of ammo. They also did not retain their spent mags. When they got more ammo, they had no mags and some of their weapons had the dreaded mag safety's in them and the ammo was USELESS! :rolleyes:
C4
Most police gun fights are over in less than 5 rounds. The average officer carries 2 spare magazines and has up to 45 to 50 rounds on his person if he or she is carrying a high capacity pistol. The LA shootout had a whole different set of problems. The main one being the cops were not properly armed with patrol rifles or even slugs for their shotguns.
As for magazine safety's they can save more officers lives than they get killed. 12% of officers are killed with their own sidearm. A magazine safety is a built in kill switch that can be hit as the suspect gets control of your weapon. Buying you precious time to get out your BUG. But that is another discussion. I wish I magazine safeties were an option on more guns like my 1911.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:29
Civy Comp shooters are fast and accurate. Some of the applies to combat shooting and some of it does not.
I do not know any former .Mil instructor that teaches and is going to make you do a tactic (which is what we are talking about here) that does not jive with your Dept. set of rules.
They are teaching gun handling, manipulation, accuracy, moving and shooting, malfunction clearing, transitions, offhand shooting, use of cover, etc, etc. All of this applies to LE types (and civy's).
C4
Shooting fast and accurate applies to all gun fights. Not sure what you meant by your statement. I said earlier that they don't know tactics but they do know how to run a gun (ie shoot and manipulate it). And they know how to run a gun better than any other group of shooters.
As for military tactics that are not acceptable for LEO situations. One big one comes to mind is suppression fire. The military uses volume of fire to keep the enemies head down while they advance. This is a no go in most leo situations.
Pat
Most police gun fights are over in less than 5 rounds. The average officer carries 2 spare magazines and has up to 45 to 50 rounds on his person if he or she is carrying a high capacity pistol. The LA shootout had a whole different set of problems. The main one being the cops were not properly armed with patrol rifles or even slugs for their shotguns.
As for magazine safety's they can save more officers lives than they get killed. 12% of officers are killed with their own sidearm. A magazine safety is a built in kill switch that can be hit as the suspect gets control of your weapon. Buying you precious time to get out your BUG. But that is another discussion. I wish I magazine safeties were an option on more guns like my 1911.
Pat
Yes I understand, but looking at the worst case scenario, 45-50rds did not work out so well and not retaining mags also didn't work out so hot either.
C4
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 14:32
Yes I understand, but looking at the worst case scenario, 45-50rds did not work out so well and not retaining mags also didn't work out so hot either.
C4
That was one example. There are far more shootings in which trying to retain your ammo would/could have gotten an officer killed vs just dumping the mag and reloading as fast as possible. There is always extreme cases that do not fit the norm. The LA shootout was one of the most extreme shooting in Law Enforcement history. Anyway I respect your view and others on this thread. I agree with some of what you have said and disagree with other parts. We are not going to change each others minds. So stay safe and good luck.
Pat
No hurt feelings. Cops fit that group. Generally the firearms training LEO's receive is minimal at best and you have to cater to the lowest common denominator. I need to teach my guys techniques that they can remember and that will work for them with minimal training. The department does not give me the time or ammo to train them as I feel they should be. Personally I have paid my own way to get training. But its hard to get cops to do that generally.
Pat
It's not just Policemen. Alot of low level Military are in the same boat.
I wish I magazine safeties were an option on more guns like my 1911.
Sorry, I disagree on a mag safety for a 1911....So, a beavertail and thumb safety are not enough? :confused:
So why do a high percentage of PD's carry Glocks?
Mace
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 15:30
Sorry, I disagree on a mag safety for a 1911....So, a beavertail and thumb safety are not enough? :confused:
So why do a high percentage of PD's carry Glocks?
Mace
Its not about making the gun safer rather its about allowing the officer to de activate the weapon if he is losing a life and death struggle to maintain control of his firearm in a gun grab. Officers carrying Smith Autos have been saved by magazine safeties. I like Glocks too. PD's carry them for the following reasons.
1. Cheap
2. Simple to use
3. Durable
4. Reliable
5. Reasonably Accurate
6. refer to number 1.
I am not saying that all pistol companies should put them on every gun. But I wish it could be an option for those of us who want them.
The disadvantage of a magazine safety is that your gun is not able to fire as a single shot should you lose the magazine or during a reload. But honestly I don't think that is much of an issue for LEO's or civilians.
Pat
Its not about making the gun safer rather its about allowing the officer to de activate the weapon if he is losing a life and death struggle to maintain control of his firearm in a gun grab.
10-4 that. Good point...
Mace
Failure2Stop
11-17-08, 16:16
Sorry to back-trach the thread, but I have a question-
I don't use the trendy P Mags because our R&D section tested them and under high volumes of fire common to our pre-deployment training, the feed lips were melting and warping.
By you user name I assume that you are in the USMC. Would you mind sharing exactly who your "R&D" section is and how many rounds were put though the magazine to cause it to warp. I am not accusing you of anything, but your information is in conflict with my experience.
Now- back to the sub-topic-
I have only been able to recreate stoppages due to striking the magazine when the bolt is to the rear and with known bad magazines. I have had zero stoppages induced by striking the bottom of the magazine (as in tap, rack, bang) when the bolt is forward. Now, I am not saying that one should slap the magazine during an emergency reload (bolt to the rear on an empty mag), just an observation, as some are a bit too finicky about giving the mag a strike during "immediate action".
The environment in which the bulk of our forces are working now are *suprise* sandy and dusty, which can cause the follower to stick. A hearty strike on the bottom of the mag generally will free the follower and allow the shooter to continue. Regardless, if I have to TRB more than once on the mag I am going to dump it and go for another.
I have no problem hitting the bolt-release with my thumb under shooty-badguy conditions. Likewise, tac-reloads are a good thing, which I started to take very seriously when I ran out of bullets with someone very close when I had the time and opportunity to conduct a tac-reload just prior to the event.
I definately like to keep my partially filled mags with me, learned once again, after an extended contact when I realized that if the SHTF again, I would be pretty busy reloading the few mags I still had on hand.
Is this relevant for an LEO, I have no idea, but I don't see how it would hurt.
As far as suppressive fire goes- I have never had to teach the concept of suppressive fire during a shooting course, nor have I had an instructor bring it up in a shooting course. Shooting courses are generally focused on being accurate, faster, or becoming MORE accurate, even faster while dealing with environmental issues and discomfort issues. Suppression is a tactic (albeit a simple one), not a skill to be honed in a shooting course.
But that's just my opinion.
The problem I/we were having with the steel mags is when you drop them they bend and stay bent rather than pop back like aluminum. I don't use the trendy P Mags because our R&D section tested them and under high volumes of fire common to our pre-deployment training, the feed lips were melting and warping. I figure I'll stick with good old aluminum magazines with upgraded springs and followers and call it a day. They work in all temperatures, they work in all environments, and they're relatively cheap, even if they aren't the flavor of the month.
USMC51? Are you an assultman? While I agree that there is nothing wrong with aluminum mags, I do question your results with P-Mags. I would like to know what volume of fire you were at, because my pre-deployment training apparently was much less than yours
Sorry to back-trach the thread, but I have a question-
By you user name I assume that you are in the USMC. Would you mind sharing exactly who your "R&D" section is and how many rounds were put though the magazine to cause it to warp. I am not accusing you of anything, but your information is in conflict with my experience.
Now- back to the sub-topic-
I have only been able to recreate stoppages due to striking the magazine when the bolt is to the rear and with known bad magazines. I have had zero stoppages induced by striking the bottom of the magazine (as in tap, rack, bang) when the bolt is forward. Now, I am not saying that one should slap the magazine during an emergency reload (bolt to the rear on an empty mag), just an observation, as some are a bit too finicky about giving the mag a strike during "immediate action".
The environment in which the bulk of our forces are working now are *suprise* sandy and dusty, which can cause the follower to stick. A hearty strike on the bottom of the mag generally will free the follower and allow the shooter to continue. Regardless, if I have to TRB more than once on the mag I am going to dump it and go for another.
I have no problem hitting the bolt-release with my thumb under shooty-badguy conditions. Likewise, tac-reloads are a good thing, which I started to take very seriously when I ran out of bullets with someone very close when I had the time and opportunity to conduct a tac-reload just prior to the event.
I definately like to keep my partially filled mags with me, learned once again, after an extended contact when I realized that if the SHTF again, I would be pretty busy reloading the few mags I still had on hand.
Is this relevant for an LEO, I have no idea, but I don't see how it would hurt.
As far as suppressive fire goes- I have never had to teach the concept of suppressive fire during a shooting course, nor have I had an instructor bring it up in a shooting course. Shooting courses are generally focused on being accurate, faster, or becoming MORE accurate, even faster while dealing with environmental issues and discomfort issues. Suppression is a tactic (albeit a simple one), not a skill to be honed in a shooting course.
But that's just my opinion.
Good points
Its not about making the gun safer rather its about allowing the officer to de activate the weapon if he is losing a life and death struggle to maintain control of his firearm in a gun grab. Officers carrying Smith Autos have been saved by magazine safeties. I like Glocks too. PD's carry them for the following reasons.
1. Cheap
2. Simple to use
3. Durable
4. Reliable
5. Reasonably Accurate
6. refer to number 1.
I am not saying that all pistol companies should put them on every gun. But I wish it could be an option for those of us who want them.
The disadvantage of a magazine safety is that your gun is not able to fire as a single shot should you lose the magazine or during a reload. But honestly I don't think that is much of an issue for LEO's or civilians.
Pat
I've never bought into that mindset. I carried a Smith for a long time and never liked that feature. My thought was always, if I had enough control to reach down and push an itty bitty putton, then someone is loosing some pieces.
Jay Cunningham
11-17-08, 16:56
TRB is the only time I "slam" the bottom of my magazine.
Grant,
You must have ESP as you were reading my mind. In the military I was in we did a version of a "tactical reload" after being in engaged, it actually would have happened as we did our ACE report. In the contract world similar rules apply= prior military experience.
My experience and training says to run the gun empty and reload. If I am behind cover or expecting an assault then the reload happens. This is true when moving from an objective to another one.
I also do not needlessly dump magazines. That is what a dump pouch is for. That is to say that during an engagement I could give a rats ass about the mags, but in a static or defensive position they go in the pouch.
Where the Tac reload comes into its own is if you have access to cover and are firing high volumes of rounds.
If there is no cover and you are actively engaged in a fight, you run the weapon to slide lock.
C4
Since most Civy's and Cops only carry between 2-3 pistol mags, dumping rounds on the ground is a no go IMHO. You retain the magazine if it has ammo in it.
Looking at the LA shootout with the two AK yielding bad guys, the officers that were on scene first, quickly ran out of ammo. They also did not retain their spent mags. When they got more ammo, they had no mags and some of their weapons had the dreaded mag safety's in them and the ammo was USELESS! :rolleyes:
Using one vastly outlying incident as your reason for adopting an otherwise marginal technique is pretty questionable. I don't think anyone has claimed that the L.A. bank shootout would have been solved more quickly if only the officers first to the scene had performed tactical reloads. :cool:
The more FOF training I do, the less use I see for retention reloads ... at least, in a domestic LE/private citizen environment. I still do them before putting the gun back in my holster but at that point I obviously am as close to zero threat level as possible. Because otherwise, I wouldn't put the gun away yet.
edited to add: A lot of this also depends on what weapon you're carrying and how much spare ammo you have on your person. If I had a 2-shot magazine and one reload (total of 5 rounds) I'd be very careful to save every round I could. When I carried a single stack .45, the retention reload was a little more seductive in concept. But right now, if I dump the mag in my gun (regardless of how many rounds it has) and take my only spare mag to reload, I've still got more ammo in my gun than a dude running around with a topped off 1911 and a loaded spare.
But it really boils down to an issue of time. You don't know whether you have the time/safety/cover to perform a retention reload until after the fact.
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 19:37
I've never bought into that mindset. I carried a Smith for a long time and never liked that feature. My thought was always, if I had enough control to reach down and push an itty bitty putton, then someone is loosing some pieces.
There is always someone tougher than you out there and who may get the upper hand in a struggle. A mag safety buys me time to let him have a useless gun while I pull out my bug and shoot him with that.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 19:39
Using one vastly outlying incident as your reason for adopting an otherwise marginal technique is pretty questionable. I don't think anyone has claimed that the L.A. bank shootout would have been solved more quickly if only the officers first to the scene had performed tactical reloads. :cool:
The more FOF training I do, the less use I see for retention reloads ... at least, in a domestic LE/private citizen environment. I still do them before putting the gun back in my holster but at that point I obviously am as close to zero threat level as possible. Because otherwise, I wouldn't put the gun away yet.
edited to add: A lot of this also depends on what weapon you're carrying and how much spare ammo you have on your person. If I had a 2-shot magazine and one reload (total of 5 rounds) I'd be very careful to save every round I could. When I carried a single stack .45, the retention reload was a little more seductive in concept. But right now, if I dump the mag in my gun (regardless of how many rounds it has) and take my only spare mag to reload, I've still got more ammo in my gun than a dude running around with a topped off 1911 and a loaded spare.
But it really boils down to an issue of time. You don't know whether you have the time/safety/cover to perform a retention reload until after the fact.
Well put.
Pat
There is always someone tougher than you out there and who may get the upper hand in a struggle. A mag safety buys me time to let him have a useless gun while I pull out my bug and shoot him with that.
Pat
I'll agree on the first, but not the second part. Besides--why would you shoot someone that "has a useless gun"?
Alaskapopo
11-17-08, 20:07
I'll agree on the first, but not the second part. Besides--why would you shoot someone that "has a useless gun"?
Simple because if he was tough enough to take my gun from me and it is obvious that he has intent on killing me. If he was able to do this lesser forms of force are not likely to work. You can shoot unarmed people under certain situations. One being if the person physically out matches you. Another is if the person takes a martial arts stance, another can be an age difference, size difference ect.
Pat
Simple because if he was tough enough to take my gun from me and it is obvious that he has intent on killing me. If he was able to do this lesser forms of force are not likely to work. You can shoot unarmed people under certain situations. One being if the person physically out matches you. Another is if the person takes a martial arts stance, another can be an age difference, size difference ect.
Pat
I don't need the education on the variables mentioned as there alway those involved, each circumstance is different.
In the circumstance mentioned, we can't answer it without knowing what "may have" lead up to the incident. But, the fact alone that he has a useless gun is reaching.
Start another thread if you want to discuss the topic--in the LEO Forum.
Leave this to the mag issues.
Heavy Metal
11-17-08, 20:47
Press the bolt release with your support side thumb.
We disagree again with the "fine motor skills" thing. Aren't pressing the trigger, manipulating the safety and performing a tac relaod all examples of fine motor skills?
But this discussion is now off-topic from the service life of a magazine.
Not to mention the human hand is irregular shaped and cupped at the palm. Especially with heavy golves, the catch can be missed.
I prefer to run my support hand up the magwell and press it with my thumb.
I've never bought into that mindset. I carried a Smith for a long time and never liked that feature. My thought was always, if I had enough control to reach down and push an itty bitty putton, then someone is loosing some pieces.
Exactly. I find it VERY hard to believe that while in hand to hand combat, you are going to hit that little buton.
C4
Using one vastly outlying incident as your reason for adopting an otherwise marginal technique is pretty questionable. I don't think anyone has claimed that the L.A. bank shootout would have been solved more quickly if only the officers first to the scene had performed tactical reloads. :cool:
We look at the worst case scenario and plan for it. We also hope for the best. Being able to fire at least ONE ROUND is a whole lot better than throwing your pistol at the bad guy. ;)
The more FOF training I do, the less use I see for retention reloads ... at least, in a domestic LE/private citizen environment. I still do them before putting the gun back in my holster but at that point I obviously am as close to zero threat level as possible. Because otherwise, I wouldn't put the gun away yet.
edited to add: A lot of this also depends on what weapon you're carrying and how much spare ammo you have on your person. If I had a 2-shot magazine and one reload (total of 5 rounds) I'd be very careful to save every round I could. When I carried a single stack .45, the retention reload was a little more seductive in concept. But right now, if I dump the mag in my gun (regardless of how many rounds it has) and take my only spare mag to reload, I've still got more ammo in my gun than a dude running around with a topped off 1911 and a loaded spare.
But it really boils down to an issue of time. You don't know whether you have the time/safety/cover to perform a retention reload until after the fact.
All good points Todd.
C4
Mag disconnects have their place. It's fewer than most believe in my opinion.
An upside often cited by admin is the reduced potential for ND during handling. That seems to be heard lately more than a desire to disable the gun in a grab.
There are indeed documented cases where someone has disabled the gun in conflict.
I've seen a number of others where Joe Troop didn't seat his magazine properly, found his mag popped through normal movement, or had all kinds of havoc wreaked on his gun and holster due to Dunlop Syndrome.
I'll pass.
If you use one, be attentive to it, and have a BUG.
Exactly. I find it VERY hard to believe that while in hand to hand combat, you are going to hit that little buton.
It depends a lot on where/how you carry your gun and what your weapons retention skills are. Every legitimate retention program/plan I've ever seen begins with getting one hand on your own gun asap.
I've popped my mag countless times practicing this, as have thousands of officers whose agencies teach them to do it.
Smith & Wesson has a huge pile of testimonials from officers whose lives have been saved because of this feature. Is it 100% fool proof? No. But if we're talking about worst case scenario planning, I see fighting for my gun as much more likely than being involved with two heavily armed & armored bank robbers at long range.
An upside often cited by admin is the reduced potential for ND during handling. That seems to be heard lately more than a desire to disable the gun in a grab.
FWIW, this is why the mag disconnect was originally developed.
I've seen a number of others where Joe Troop didn't seat his magazine properly, found his mag popped through normal movement, or had all kinds of havoc wreaked on his gun and holster due to Dunlop Syndrome.
This is indeed a possibility. As I see it, if a shooter's mag is dislodged then one of three things is going to happen when he fires:
He's got a mag disconnect, gets off zero shots, and needs to TRB.
He has no mag disconnect, gets of a shot, and his unlocked magazine drops out of the gun leaving him with an empty gun.
He has no mag disconnect, gets off a shot, the mag stays put, and he needs to TRB.
Given typical hit ratios as well as the generally accepted effectiveness (or lack thereof) of handgun rounds to cause instantaneous incapacitation with a single shot, one could argue that the potential to eject your magazine and leave you with a completely empty gun is worse than losing that single round before you have to TRB. Neither situation is a good one.
I don't proselytize the mag disconnect, and in fact right now I'm planning not to have one on my next gun because it will have a manual safety which serves a similar (if less certain) role in a weapons retention situation. I just have a problem with people who equate a mag disconnect to death on a stick.
It depends a lot on where/how you carry your gun and what your weapons retention skills are. Every legitimate retention program/plan I've ever seen begins with getting one hand on your own gun asap.
I've popped my mag countless times practicing this, as have thousands of officers whose agencies teach them to do it.
Smith & Wesson has a huge pile of testimonials from officers whose lives have been saved because of this feature. Is it 100% fool proof? No. But if we're talking about worst case scenario planning, I see fighting for my gun as much more likely than being involved with two heavily armed & armored bank robbers at long range.
I have to listen to officers like Mark5PT56 who also do not think it is a good idea. As mentioned we have seen people that do not seat the mag and get no bang as well.
It is also one more level of complexity into the weapons that CAN fail and cause malfunctions.
C4
The problem I/we were having with the steel mags is when you drop them they bend and stay bent rather than pop back like aluminum. I don't use the trendy P Mags because our R&D section tested them and under high volumes of fire common to our pre-deployment training, the feed lips were melting and warping. I figure I'll stick with good old aluminum magazines with upgraded springs and followers and call it a day. They work in all temperatures, they work in all environments, and they're relatively cheap, even if they aren't the flavor of the month.
I will offically call BS on this PMag feedlip melting.
We have run PMags repeatablity supperssed and out of M249s on a number of occasions and never had any issue at all. No feedback, military or otherwise has reported this issue.
Over half of the USMC IAR submissions used the PMag. None of those manufactures had any issue such as this occuring during either their internal testing or when the USMC tested the weapons platform.
Please verify your sources prior to posting third hand information.
FWIW, this is why the mag disconnect was originally developed.
All that is old is new again. :)
We are also see a lot of new training come about in regards to weapon retention and the use of a knife. Most of these techniques do NOT have the officer place their hand on their pistol.
C4
Rich,
I doubted this info as well which is why I made my post. It's been awfully quiet since Failure2stop addressed him as well.
I will offically call BS on this PMag feedlip melting.
We have run PMags repeatablity supperssed and out of M249s on a number of occasions and never had any issue at all. No feedback, military or otherwise has reported this issue.
Over half of the USMC IAR submissions used the PMag. None of those manufactures had any issue such as this occuring during either their internal testing or when the USMC tested the weapons platform.
Please verify your sources prior to posting third hand information.
Failure2Stop
11-18-08, 12:56
Let's not be in a rush to throw usmc51 under the bus. Anybody that is running around in theatre with a 416 is not just some random chimp and his pre-deployment work-up would involve a heavy firing schedule.
Surefire M600 Scout on HK 416 while I was overseas:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a312/51gunner/4162.jpghttp://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a312/51gunner/416.jpg
Further, it is pretty obvious that my assumption of service based solely on user name appears to be incorrect. I am still a very curious as to the testers and conditions that caused the alledged warping. Still looking forward to usmc51's response.
I have to listen to officers like Mark5PT56 who also do not think it is a good idea. As mentioned we have seen people that do not seat the mag and get no bang as well.
I used to feel the same way before I started dealing with agencies that have documented saves from the device. Like I said, I'm not suggesting it should be mandatory but neither is it the boogeyman so many make it out to be.
As for the unseated mag thing, that's still just a red herring. If an officer's gear or an officer's habits are such that his mag routinely isn't seated, then he has a problem regardless of whether there's a mag disconnect in his gun. Seriously, if you had a holster for your no-disconnect gun that regularly caused the mag to pop free, would you complain about the gun or the holster?
It is also one more level of complexity into the weapons that CAN fail and cause malfunctions.
Again, great in theory but hasn't proven to be the case in practice (at least with the Smiths). I know they do have serious issues with Berettas and SIGs, though. That's the difference between designing the feature into the gun from day one versus adding it as a last minute kludge to make some contract requirement.
We are also see a lot of new training come about in regards to weapon retention and the use of a knife. Most of these techniques do NOT have the officer place their hand on their pistol.
I've never seen a gun grab defense taught by a legitimate authority that didn't involve securing the weapon. A lot of this "cut him away" stuff is pretty impractical unless you've got a fixed blade knife. It can work fine in a sterile training environment but when someone bigger than you starts yanking your body all over the room, it can be difficult to reach and deploy a folding knife ... and in the time it took you to do so, you could more easily have done a number of other equally (or more) effective things to dissuade him from being so mean to you.
I used to feel the same way before I started dealing with agencies that have documented saves from the device. Like I said, I'm not suggesting it should be mandatory but neither is it the boogeyman so many make it out to be.
As for the unseated mag thing, that's still just a red herring. If an officer's gear or an officer's habits are such that his mag routinely isn't seated, then he has a problem regardless of whether there's a mag disconnect in his gun. Seriously, if you had a holster for your no-disconnect gun that regularly caused the mag to pop free, would you complain about the gun or the holster?
Again, great in theory but hasn't proven to be the case in practice (at least with the Smiths). I know they do have serious issues with Berettas and SIGs, though. That's the difference between designing the feature into the gun from day one versus adding it as a last minute kludge to make some contract requirement.
I've never seen a gun grab defense taught by a legitimate authority that didn't involve securing the weapon. A lot of this "cut him away" stuff is pretty impractical unless you've got a fixed blade knife. It can work fine in a sterile training environment but when someone bigger than you starts yanking your body all over the room, it can be difficult to reach and deploy a folding knife ... and in the time it took you to do so, you could more easily have done a number of other equally (or more) effective things to dissuade him from being so mean to you.
Most of the more advanced retention teaching schools are also going to fixed knives (FYI) as folding knives are just too slow. They are also NOT teaching the officer to grab the weapon, but instead to grab the bad guys hand that is going for the weapon.
C4
Failure2Stop
11-18-08, 13:08
Todd- great insight about the mag disconnect.
Of course I still hate them :p, but mostly due to dry-fire and manipulation practice that makes them a PITA for me.
They are also NOT teaching the officer to grab the weapon, but instead to grab the bad guys hand that is going for the weapon.
All I can say is that I haven't seen that, and I get to play around with folks who train this stuff for a living at some pretty well respected agencies.
I'm not sure I understand how grabbing one of your assailant's hands is a solution.
What if he goes for your gun with two hands?
What if there is more than one guy going after your gun or just generally wrestling around with you?
No matter how many people are going for my gun with however many hands, I can do a reasonable job of securing my gun if I can put my hand on it. If the BG gets his hands on it first, then I try to trap his hand between mine and the gun to get essentially the same effect. Is that what you meant? I don't see that as superior because it has now devolved into a situation where (a) my timing had better be good and (b) he's got at least partial control of the weapon.
Todd- great insight about the mag disconnect.
Of course I still hate them :p, but mostly due to dry-fire and manipulation practice that makes them a PITA for me.
Agreed. Since it's a bad idea to engage in extensive dry fire with the M&P (or any other gun with a firing pin/striker block, except Glocks it seems) without a snap cap, it's a relatively minor inconvenience for me. I'd prefer a little inconvenience during dry fire than getting shot in the face with my own gun. YMMV. :cool:
Failure2Stop
11-18-08, 13:29
I'd prefer a little inconvenience during dry fire than getting shot in the face with my own gun.
LOL
Hard to argue against that.
Alaskapopo
11-18-08, 13:49
Exactly. I find it VERY hard to believe that while in hand to hand combat, you are going to hit that little buton.
C4
Well there are plenty of documented cases of just that happening saving the officers life.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-18-08, 13:50
Most of the more advanced retention teaching schools are also going to fixed knives (FYI) as folding knives are just too slow. They are also NOT teaching the officer to grab the weapon, but instead to grab the bad guys hand that is going for the weapon.
C4
What if he already has the weapon?
Pat
What if he already has the weapon?
Pat
He got the weapon out of your triple retention holster? Wow pretty good. ;)
C4
What if he already has the weapon?
Once he has the weapon in his hands, it's no longer a weapon retention issue. You're facing someone with a gun now. It doesn't matter whether that gun was in your holster or his waistband 30 seconds ago, now it's in his hands.
Alaskapopo
11-18-08, 14:15
He got the weapon out of your triple retention holster? Wow pretty good. ;)
C4
Cons practice in the prison yard on how to defeat officers holsters and disarm them. This is common knowledge in the LEO community. Having at least a level 2 holster is good but its not a guarantee.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-18-08, 14:16
Once he has the weapon in his hands, it's no longer a weapon retention issue. You're facing someone with a gun now. It doesn't matter whether that gun was in your holster or his waistband 30 seconds ago, now it's in his hands.
I understand its the time when the gun is in both your hands that it can get real hairy.
Pat
Cons practice in the prison yard on how to defeat officers holsters and disarm them. This is common knowledge in the LEO community. Having at least a level 2 holster is good but its not a guarantee.
Pat
Oh I understand this. I have also practiced and attempted to remove a weapon (out of a level 2 and level 3) with no luck. If I am running this type of holster, I am going to leave their hand on my weapon and use both my hands to inflict pain (knife, fist, etc).
C4
Alaskapopo
11-18-08, 14:51
I have to listen to officers like Mark5PT56 who also do not think it is a good idea. As mentioned we have seen people that do not seat the mag and get no bang as well.
It is also one more level of complexity into the weapons that CAN fail and cause malfunctions.
C4
Listen to who you want. But as a LEO I would prefer to have the option.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-18-08, 14:52
Oh I understand this. I have also practiced and attempted to remove a weapon (out of a level 2 and level 3) with no luck. If I am running this type of holster, I am going to leave their hand on my weapon and use both my hands to inflict pain (knife, fist, etc).
C4
If you know the holster design and how it works its fairly easy. It all depends on the awareness level of the officer. But if you get the drop on him is fairly easy to snatch most holsters if you know how they work. The real variable is the officers skill and awareness as to what is going on around him or her.
Pat
If you know the holster design and how it works its fairly easy. It all depends on the awareness level of the officer. But if you get the drop on him is fairly easy to snatch most holsters if you know how they work. The real variable is the officers skill and awareness as to what is going on around him or her.
Pat
Depends on if we are talking about the bad guy grabbing the weapon from behind or from the front. I could see that it would be somewhat easier from behind, but almost impossible from the front.
C4
Let's not be in a rush to throw usmc51 under the bus.
Agreed, but I still have doubts
Anybody that is running around in theater with a 416 is not just some random chimp a
May be. I have met some in high speed low drag groups that I think a chimp could out smart, they were just incredibly tough and fit. You know as well as any, there are great and horrid in every group, that is giving him the benifit of the doubt that it is him in those pics.
Guys- Let's be careful when we discuss weapon retention techniques, defeats, and related TTP.
Alaskapopo
11-18-08, 20:09
Depends on if we are talking about the bad guy grabbing the weapon from behind or from the front. I could see that it would be somewhat easier from behind, but almost impossible from the front.
C4
Depends on the holster. Without going into details for officer safety reasons. Some holsters are easier to grab from the front others from behind.
Pat
Depends on the holster. Without going into details for officer safety reasons. Some holsters are easier to grab from the front others from behind.
Pat
I am only familar with some of the Safariland holsters. I find these to be a real PITA to get the gun out of from the front and not so easy from the rear.
C4
Discussion about getting the gun "from the front" or "from the rear" becomes a non-issue once you get on the mat and start really wrestling with an opponent (or multiple opponents). People who are in front of you one second are behind you the next, and vice versa.
For many years, certain instructors pimped folding knives in the off-hand front pocket as a retention aid/counter weapon. I attended a class where this was covered in the late 90's. The training scenario involved having the attacker (gun grabber) push the defender up against a wall and then fight for the gun in that position. Yes, when your body is braced against a wall and your attacker doesn't move his feet you can get a folder out with just a couple seconds effort. (of course, there are smarter things you could be doing in that couple of seconds, but we'll leave that for now)
Now take a few steps away from the wall. When the attacker has your hips (or your whole body) rocking all over the place from tugging at the gun and your holster and your belt and your arms and etc. etc., suddenly getting your hand on your knife, drawing it, and opening it becomes a lot trickier. And the more attention you devote to the knife, the less you're using to keep the gun under your control.
Discussion about getting the gun "from the front" or "from the rear" becomes a non-issue once you get on the mat and start really wrestling with an opponent (or multiple opponents). People who are in front of you one second are behind you the next, and vice versa.
For many years, certain instructors pimped folding knives in the off-hand front pocket as a retention aid/counter weapon. I attended a class where this was covered in the late 90's. The training scenario involved having the attacker (gun grabber) push the defender up against a wall and then fight for the gun in that position. Yes, when your body is braced against a wall and your attacker doesn't move his feet you can get a folder out with just a couple seconds effort. (of course, there are smarter things you could be doing in that couple of seconds, but we'll leave that for now)
Now take a few steps away from the wall. When the attacker has your hips (or your whole body) rocking all over the place from tugging at the gun and your holster and your belt and your arms and etc. etc., suddenly getting your hand on your knife, drawing it, and opening it becomes a lot trickier. And the more attention you devote to the knife, the less you're using to keep the gun under your control.
Some of the new concepts are to have a fixed blade knife that is easy to grab with your PRIMARY hand.
C4
Some of the new concepts are to have a fixed blade knife that is easy to grab with your PRIMARY hand.
Grant -- Understood, and I've seen a bit of that (like the clinch pick). Though at least from what I've seen, the idea is still to have the knife accessible by the support hand because (not to sound like a broken record) the strong hand is clamped down protecting the gun.
If one is going to opt for a knife as a weapon retention aid, a fixed blade definitely seems to be the only good choice.
Grant -- Understood, and I've seen a bit of that (like the clinch pick). Though at least from what I've seen, the idea is still to have the knife accessible by the support hand because (not to sound like a broken record) the strong hand is clamped down protecting the gun.
If one is going to opt for a knife as a weapon retention aid, a fixed blade definitely seems to be the only good choice.
I have seen the knife positioned so that either hand can grab it, but with the focus of making it easier to grab by the primary hand. The left hand grabs the attackers arm that is on the weapon (keeping it in the holster) and then hits the neck and the arm with the blade.
I am not saying that this is the best way (or the only way), but just what I have been seeing taught more and more.
C4
Alaskapopo
11-19-08, 12:25
I am only familar with some of the Safariland holsters. I find these to be a real PITA to get the gun out of from the front and not so easy from the rear.
C4
I am not going to go into details of which make and model. But many common and popular Safariland holsters are easy to take from a frontal grab.
Pat
I am not going to go into details of which make and model. But many common and popular Safariland holsters are easy to take from a frontal grab.
Pat
I mostly come across the level 3 holsters. I have not yet been able to get one out from the front.
C4
Alaskapopo
11-19-08, 12:39
I mostly come across the level 3 holsters. I have not yet been able to get one out from the front.
C4
There is only one level 3 holster I like and that is the 070 but it will not work with a weapon light so I use a 6280 (level 2). The Raptor series sucks in my opinion. Way too complicated of a draw process. Its good to have security in a holster but you still need to be able to draw quickly.
Pat
All,
I apologize for the delay in response, as I did not seem to be subscribed to this thread as it must have been one of my first when I registered. It is long overdue that I owe y'all a few responses, and a correction.
Have you guys informed MAGPUL about this?
No, as I had not used PMags, and mistook them for the Thermold mags (as acquired from our Canadian counterparts and found to be lacking), which they resemble. Purely my mistake and unfamiliarity with what was then a new product to me.
Let's not be in a rush to throw usmc51 under the bus. Anybody that is running around in theatre with a 416 is not just some random chimp and his pre-deployment work-up would involve a heavy firing schedule.
Further, it is pretty obvious that my assumption of service based solely on user name appears to be incorrect. I am still a very curious as to the testers and conditions that caused the alledged warping. Still looking forward to usmc51's response.
Thank you for the patience beyond what was a reasonable expectation of time for a response, though I have been known to enjoy a banana here and there! You were correct, I was Marine Corps, though I was not at the time those photos were taken. Aside from fit in the 416, I seem to have forgotten if there were any other reasons the PMAG was not issued. Believe you me, the HK mag was NOT the answer, at least not in my personal experience. I'm of the opinion that a good aluminum magazine with Magpul followers and good springs is a tough combination to beat.
Agreed, but I still have doubts
May be. I have met some in high speed low drag groups that I think a chimp could out smart, they were just incredibly tough and fit. You know as well as any, there are great and horrid in every group, that is giving him the benifit of the doubt that it is him in those pics.
I'm not so tough or fit, but I'm an eternal optimist...notice my blood type on the gloves even say so :)
USMC51? Are you an assultman?
In my youth.
Heavy Metal
06-09-09, 22:40
I've seen PMAGs crack in extreme cold, but always under conditions that would also render a USGI mag inoperable. I hope to have a cold chamber in hand very soon to conduct more thorough first-hand testing.
Since we're getting to that time again, PM me your address and I'll send you a few mags to play with this winter. My primary concern is how it functions at those temperatures. Everything has its breaking point - if that so happens to be a -50 degree fully loaded 5 foot drop test on the feed lips, that circumstance may just be rare enough to be inconsequential.
I am calling BS Nick.
You, me and the Coors company know darn well what you have PLANNED FOR THAT COLD CHAMBER!
Mabey now Rich's CO2 fire extingushers won't mysteriously be found empty:D
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