AAR-Larry Vickers/ATS Tactical - Pistol & Carbine - Nov 14 - 16 Altha, FL

[Matt Edwards]

"I am not here to give you what you want, I am here to give you what you need."

Larry stated this to the small class before the first hour of the training was complete.
The class was very small. At the outset, there were seven students in all. Most, admittedly, had very little experience with either the pistol or the carbine. For many it was the first formal training they had received. Larry took this in stride and quickly tailored the class to fit the needs of his student base. Although I had trained with Larry twice before and had a little experience with training of this type, I was VERY aware that I needed a trip back "the basics" as much as anyone.

We started day one off with a quick safety brief and went into the subject of Trigger Control. This is the single most important aspect of shooting in his opinion. I don't think any one will argue.
On the range, we began with dry fire drills with the pistol. This consisted of a partner assisted exercise where your buddy places a spent cartridge case on top of your front sight. The shooter, taking a good sight picture, must squeeze the trigger as not to allow the case to fall off the sight. We continued with 3 different types of ball and dummy drills.
After attempting to extract the "El Snatcho" virus from our system, we proceeded to the trigger reset drill, which is also buddy assisted, and then then to multiple shots. We conducted this drill from different distances which culminated in a sort of "walk back" drill on the bulls eye targets.
After a grouping drill, it was off the dreaded "don't walk back" drill. This is a Larry favorite where the shooters, following Larry's lead, engage a B/C zone steel target. They back up until one shooter is left. For myself, I was able to make it back back further then I had ever made it in previous classes. I'd make it even further the next day. (then, of course, I'd petered out...)

The morning of TD2 was a condensed version of EVERYTHING we covered on day one. We did all drills over again. There was a marked and obvious improvement noted for all. In the afternoon, we started on the carbine. Larry is a big believer that since the carbine is not an MP5, a more aggressive blade, or fighters stance should be used. He demonstrated this. Some had to fight through this. It was followed by presentation drills and multiple shots at different distances.
We culminated the carbine portion of day 2 with a 4 position aggregate. (I had a different name for this)This was a drill that was taught in his old unit. It was based on the desire to be able to get head shots with the carbine from 100 yards in. Even though we only had about 90yds to work with, we learned that it is VERY possible to hit the 5.5 inch bull at that distance. It becomes easier when you begin to move closer. (funny how that works). Then, of course, another walk back, but this time with long guns.
That night, we had a low light shoot primer. We used a slightly different "point shooting" shooting TTP with our sights taped if equipped with tritium. This was also conducted on bulls eye centers. Using Larry's technique, it was very easy to maintain good hits. We also shot with our night sights and white lights utilizing his "flash bulb" technique. After yet another walk back drill, this time using white light, we called it a evening.

TD3 began with an even more condensed review of what had been cover. He added turns to the mix with both rifle and pistol. We covered malfunctions (Larry's take on this is a little different the others)transitions and shooting on the move. Added to this, we shot on the move using traffic cones and moved in figure 8's both forward, backward and laterally with both pistol and carbine. After a last walk back drill, this time a "transition" walk back, we were misson complete.
Random points of interest;
o Larry likes the 5.5inch bull centers put over a E-type target. You still have the "human" form to aim at when you make your presentations, but the aim small miss small technique is in full effect.
o You will not "get your blaze on" during his class. You will not do anything you might think is "high speed". "High speed" is executing the basics very well, every time. As Larry puts it "if you can't put every round in your mag into the bull at 10 yards, you shouldn't be concerned with shooting under a car yet."
o This was noted by LFer Doc Wes; "Larry is like broccoli." He provides a lot of needed goodness to help you get better. This is great for your personal development. He may not be pleasant, or at some times, not even fun. But in the end, you will be more than happy that you included him in your training diet. Like your vegetables, a good dose of Larry is mandatory.
o Larry's James Brown imitation is a must see!

Thanks Larry!! By all rights he could and should have canceled the class due to the size. Instead, he drove over 9 hours, for a class that was smaller the half of the "bare minimum" just so we could get our recommended daily allowance of what we ABSOLUTELY NEEDED. Gee, I guess he isn't an "arrogant elitist" like stated on another fly by night forum. beer

Pics to follow.
Matt

[RogerinTPA]

Hello Gentlemen,

I just got back late last night and my first LAV course. My back ground: I'm a retired army officer (11B,15C/35D) and airline pilot. Earlier in my life, I was a precision rifle guy (Match grade .22's and M1A1's) and not too bad as a pistol shooter. This is my hobby so...

Logistics: Camp Ares:. It is a nice training facility that looks like a camp ground with 4 man cabins, Class room/building, and a Team Room where we BS'd, ate, watched TV and talked shop. It would be considered a little spartan for folks that are used to staying in 4 star hotels, but very functional. (The locals think it's a CIA training facility. I was pulled over by the local cop around 2AM because I had stopped on the road, checking my GARMIN and Looking up the Address for the place, and when I said I was misoriented, and attending training at ATS, his eyes got kinda big and said "Hey sir, NO PROBLEM SIR, ATS is right up the road around the curve. NO problem sir. Everything is cool, staying well back to my 7:00 position. Have a good night sir!)

ATS Personnel: Brian Payne (ATS Facility Manager/Training Coord) did an excellent job getting us what we needed, providing excellent chow and really cool/nice guy. His humor was on par with the rest of us former army types there. Matt Edwards (Training Director with ATS and former army guy) was in the class. Hell of a nice guy, very knowledgeable and excellent shot.

Attendees: There were 6 of us (1 no-show). 2 young inexperienced guys from New England, Matt E., Doc A (Wes)(Mil), Doc B (Sol)(Civ) and myself. Glad we had 2 MD's in the class. This was the smallest class I have been in for any training I've attended. We were all glad that the class was so small so we could reap the benefits (and LAV's Rath) and very fortunate that Larry didn't out right cancel it. No tool bags were in attendance.

Equipment:

LAV: Colt 6920 (using M855) and some custom .45 (not his build).

Matt E. : Colt 6920 (using PMC) and G19

DOC A: Noveske N4 (M855/PMC) and G19

DOC B: DPMS (Wolf Black Box 55gr HP/Brown Bear (Laquered) 62gr FMJ) G19 and HK P30

NE guy (That Guy)(Matt): DPMS (Wolf BB of some type)and I think a Kimber warrior commander.

Other NE guy: 6.8 and HK USP 40 (using Wolf)

Myself: Colt 6920 (Wolf Black Box 62gr FMJ), M&P40 (Winchester ammo)

FYI, After Larry's Lube session, there were NO malfunctions due to the ammo being used.

TD1 (Pistol):
We spent most of the morning doing Case Drills, Ball and Dummy and Wall drills. When we did fire with ball & dummy, you could really tell where yourself and others were jerking and snatching the trigger. The other half of the day was spent performing shooting from the ready position with critique from your partner and LAV. We did a couple of "Walk Back" drills, of which LAV won of course, but a great confidence builder. Matt (NE guy/That Guy) had a AD/ND right behind me as we were getting on line. I thought "F--K!" as I assessed whether I was shot or not. Larry kept his cool, but the kid was having all kinds of trigger finger, and handling issues, while changing mags all day, which prompted me to take a step back. He had several malfunctions due to limp wristing and accuracy issues. The "Man GUN" as Matt E. likes to say, was too much gun for him. Larry, pulled him off line and worked with him. I think that since both guys on Team New England only had 100 rounds though there rifles and a couple of boxes through there pistols, Larry, being very gracious and magnanimous, decided to work with him, let him stay. Which caused me to keep him in my peripheral vision all day since I was right next to him. We continued to shoot at various distances. We couldn't progress to shooting on the move because of "That Guy" needing all of the attention. Later that night, while eating dinner, I told the guy "No ND's tomorrow OK?"

Overall, I felt TD1 was worth the price of tuition. I thought I had pretty good pistol skills, but LAV's in depth knowledge and attention to detail, increased all of our pistol skills dramatically.

TD2:Pistol and Carbine Condensed version of TD1 in the morning and Carbine zero (RDS and Irons) at various distances in the afternoon. I was helping "That guy" on rifle marksmanship, explaining BRASS and various shooting/breathing techniques. "That Guy's" friend broke his extractor on his DPMS 6.8, but during the carbine walk back drill, you could easily tell that weapon had quite a bit on power over the 5.56 shooting steel. We just got back from checking the targets and those still needing to fine tune their zero got into position, when BANG...another AD/ND from "That guy" in the prone position, shooting the dirt 2 feet in front of him. Matt E. and I look at each other. (I was behind the line this time since I was done) and yells "What just happened? Brian witnessed it and pointed at the divit in front of "That guy". I saw him adjusting his firing position and when the rifle fired, I saw his finger on the trigger. Larry sent us down to check and hang new targets while Matt E., Brian and LAV hung back. As we walked down, I told the guy, they are discussing your fate. I said "Dude, I think your going home. You have to learn to keep your finger off the trigger and the weapon on safe until you're ready to fire." He was feeling pretty crappy at that point. LAV tossed the guy but Brian decided to take him on another range on the other side of the compound to work with him to at least give the kid some training value. I thought that was a very gracious and kind act on Brian's part. We could now get into shooting on the move and practice other skills that we could not do with "That Guy" being on line.

That evening, we went back out to do night firing. While out there, "That Guy's" friend, came out and thanked LAV and the rest of us for the shooting experience, but he said he would have felt really bad if he progressed through training and his friend didn't. They both left that night. LAV then introduced us to point shooting and his "Flash Bulb" Technique. Larry asked me to T&E his .45 and I said "Sure Larry, no problem" (Reality check, since my M&P didn't have Night Sites yet, Larry graciously loaned me his weapon). Afterwards, Doc A suggested a night "Walk Back drill" using our own flash lights. It was a great impromptu training idea. The shooting was not as effective as the day drills, but it was effective, depending on what light you had and your shooting skills, out to 25 yards for some, on a black steel target .

Over all, excellent instruction given and training conducted.


TD3 Pistol and Carbine: . Transition drills, movement/patrol drills, figure 8 (forward and back, lateral move & shoot) with both weapons while weaving between the orange traffic cones. Also one carbine walk back and Doc A suggesting a "Transition" walk back. Another excellent idea. (I won both by the way.;) ) Oh and no AD/ND's today. It was an excellent culmination of the previous training days.


Larry Vickers: I'm sure I'm speaking to the choir, and Not to crank too hard on the man's wang, but he is a tremendous wealth of information. Very laid back, a passionate trainer, subject matter expert on shooting, period. His "Matter of Fact" manner and approachability, was truly refreshing in this PC world. There was 3 of us who were former army (LAV, Matt E. myself and one active duty guy "Doc A" in attendance and I felt truly at ease. Great banter between us and the others in the class. I did give the great "Wizard" some shit while briefing us, like, "But Larry, so and so says this about that", just to hear him go off on a tirade. The man is hysterical! LAV: "I'm Arrogant & Elitist, but I can f--kin shoot!" Definitely T- shirt worthy. I laughed my ass off on numerous occasion while trying to convince him to put on a class in Central Florida. Doc A, called Larry another T-Shirt worthy name, "The Tactical Broccoli", being a food no one likes but good for you. "Larry doesn't give you what you want, he gives you get what you need". Doc A just finished another carbine course and said they did a lot of shooting but didn't learn a lot. He felt he learned more in this course on TD1 than he did his entire 3 days at the other trainers high volume shooting course. This was a awesome training experience and look forward to taking more of his classes.

FYI, I will try to update this thread with pics this evening.

Roger

LAV instructing Doc B (Sol) performing Case Drill

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB140012.jpg

Team New England performing Case Drill

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB140018.jpg

Me performing Ball and Dummy Drill

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB140015.jpg

Performing Carbine Malfunction Drills

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB160049.jpg

Performing Malfunction Drills again

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB160048.jpg

Transition Drills

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB160047.jpg

Figure 8 Shooting drill. You weave between the cones. While in the weave you fire 4 rounds moving forward, then backwards.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB160053.jpg

Me performing the Lateral Fig 8 drill

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB160056.jpg

Doc A shooting the Carbine Walk Back Drill. Matt in the back ground.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB150036.jpg

Matt shooting the walk back drill.

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB150035.jpg

LAV shooting the Walk Back

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB150034.jpg

Me shooting the Walk Back

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB150040.jpg

Me zeroing the Iron Sights

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/RogerTPA/LAV%20ATS%20Nov14%2008/PB150032.jpg

[M4arc]

Great AARs guys. Since you both started a thread I went ahead and merged them into one.

[John_Wayne777]

Wow....two ND's.....

Damn.

On the bright side,



Doc A just finished another carbine course and said they did a lot of shooting but didn't learn a lot. He felt he learned more in this course on TD1 than he did his entire 3 days at the other trainers high volume shooting course.


...is a common sentiment among Vickers alumni.

[Joe R.]

Good AAR guys. Nice to see you pop up on the radar Matt! Hope things are well.

[TOrrock]

Great AAR.

Too bad about the NE crew, but it seems like it was handled well.

Hopefully, the guy can get his stuff together and attend another class once he's up to speed a little more.

We keep saying that LAV needs a stand up routine.....it's well worth the price of admission. :D

[UDT]

Thanks, for sharing. Very good AAR!

[Wesley]

Gentlemen,
"Doc A" here. I registered to comment so the statement from rharris2163 is not miscontrued and does not negatively impact any other instructor that I have trained with. I am reserve status currently (not active) and consider myself a very new shooter. I have trained with several groups over the last number of years, but lately have been limited to annual qualifications and do not consider myself proficient. In attempting to learn the "puzzle" of firearms training, I have picked up different pieces from each of those past instructors. Where Larry has been different from other instructors and most beneficial for me, is he was able to diagnose specific problems that I have, and teach me to correct those problems with certain drills. This meaning trigger control issues which is the demon that most of us as shooters face. This was by far the lowest round count course that I have attended, and it was well worth the cost. I was able to walk away knowing what I have been messing up AND how to correct it. My mistakes had been compounded by bad habits, that have multiplied with each uncorrected round that went downrange. I now have the knowledge to change that poor pattern and use the pieces of the puzzle that my previous instructors have also taught me so that I may become a more precise and proficient shooter.

[30 cal slut]

sorry to hear about the ND's.

long way to travel just to turn around and head back to colder climes.

[k_cheerangie]

What no pictures?:confused:

[M4arc]

Gentlemen,
"Doc A" here. I registered to comment so the statement from rharris2163 is not miscontrued and does not negatively impact any other instructor that I have trained with. I am reserve status currently (not active) and consider myself a very new shooter. I have trained with several groups over the last number of years, but lately have been limited to annual qualifications and do not consider myself proficient. In attempting to learn the "puzzle" of firearms training, I have picked up different pieces from each of those past instructors. Where Larry has been different from other instructors and most beneficial for me, is he was able to diagnose specific problems that I have, and teach me to correct those problems with certain drills. This meaning trigger control issues which is the demon that most of us as shooters face. This was by far the lowest round count course that I have attended, and it was well worth the cost. I was able to walk away knowing what I have been messing up AND how to correct it. My mistakes had been compounded by bad habits, that have multiplied with each uncorrected round that went downrange. I now have the knowledge to change that poor pattern and use the pieces of the puzzle that my previous instructors have also taught me so that I may become a more precise and proficient shooter.

Welcome Wesley!

I've heard it time and time again from folks training with Larry for the very first time. You might not burn through a thousand rounds a day but you will learn what you're doing wrong and how to correct it. That way you can continue to improve your shooting long after you've left the class.

[Matt Edwards]

Hey Big Joe! I'm still above ground Brother.

Roger, the other "team NE" guy's name was Pat, not Matt. He is a good lad. He was just in over his head. Brian offerd to help him out so he could stay and recive more training, just apart from the class. One on one. Nice to meet and train with you bro.

I have some pics on the way, as soon as I figure out how to post 'em.

[RogerinTPA]

Hey Matt,

Actually, I'm pretty bad with names so thanks for the correction. He is a good lad. Both were. That was a great gesture on Brian's part. It was nice to meet and train with you too bro.

Roger


Hey Big Joe! I'm still above ground Brother.

Roger, the other "team NE" guy's name was Pat, not Matt. He is a good lad. He was just in over his head. Brian offerd to help him out so he could stay and recive more training, just apart from the class. One on one. Nice to meet and train with you bro.

I have some pics on the way, as soon as I figure out how to post 'em.

[RogerinTPA]

Pic's Added

[M4arc]

Great pics, thanks for sharing!

[Matt Edwards]

PICS!!
Roger executing the freakin' Ball and Dummy drill under the watchful eye of Doc B:
http://images42.fotki.com/v1374/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0718-vi.jpg
Larry demonstrates the trigger reset drill:
http://images47.fotki.com/v1403/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0731-vi.jpg
Me and Doc Wesley, trigger reset drill. Doc loves him some UCP.
http://images42.fotki.com/v1365/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0725-vi.jpg
Larry showing how its done:
http://images43.fotki.com/v1383/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0716-vi.jpg
Multiple shot drill. What LAV teaches, works.
http://images47.fotki.com/v1401/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0738-vi.jpg
Larry can shoot a carbine. Under two target pasters at 90(+/-) yards.
http://images46.fotki.com/v1396/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0711-vi.jpg
Lightfighter Moderators have expensive guns:
http://images43.fotki.com/v1384/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0699-vi.jpg
Lav doing an Impression of one of the ATS staff members:
http://images46.fotki.com/v1395/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0754-vi.jpg
Malfunction drills. Since the carbine is a Colt, there isn't much need of them ;) :
http://images42.fotki.com/v1375/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0760-vi.jpg
Doc Wesley and Rog doing the Lateral Figure 8:
http://images48.fotki.com/v1405/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0771-vi.jpg
Me and Doc B doing LF8 drill:
http://images45.fotki.com/v1257/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0773-vi.jpg
For this class, the class size was VERY small. The instructor to student ratio was off the charts.
http://images42.fotki.com/v1378/photos/9/98493/6941157/DSCF0777-vi.jpg

[TOrrock]

Lookin' really good there guys, great pics!

The one disadvantage to such a small class is that if you screw up, you really do stand out.....:o

But, getting the one on one time with the instructors is priceless.

[30 cal slut]

The one disadvantage to such a small class is that if you screw up, you really do stand out.....:o


I consider that a huge plus. The best training experiences I have ever had included a healthy dollop of corrective instructor feedback ... and that includes getting yelled at by LAV.

[SHIVAN]

I'm glad that VA_Dinger is so diligent in background checks for the LAV classes I've attended.

Question for anyone who knows: Was this course the most basic of LAV's courses? Was there a pre-req?

[janichola]

Hey all, James here. Part of team NE. Just want to say a few words on my behalf. Larry, thanks for your help and especially your patience. This was my first class, so i really don't have anything to compare it to. However, judging by everyone else's appraisals and my improvement, i picked an excellent person to start with. More than a few times the phrase "this is the best class i've ever taken" was thrown out there. Most importantly, for me this class provided me with tons of new drills to practice up here at my own range. Overall great camaraderie, invaluable instruction, great facilities, and a fun time.
All the guys in the class were stand-up, really friendly people. Any time there was some equipment malfunction or something needed, someone was quick to jump in and offer a loaner. Really good people.
The ATS staff on hand, Matt & Brian, were unnecessarily accomodating, patient, and helpful. I know it isn't easy dealing with the unrelenting questions and problems that come with a noobie like me. Great food as well all wknd; you the man Brian. Having Matt in the class, for me, was like having a 2nd instructor. Thanks a million, guys.
Lastly, I'd just like to again say thanks to everyone and apologize for having to take off a day early. I guess i will just have to get on the roster for another class soon. I really would have loved to stay had conditions been different, but as Larry said after the first half-day of shooting, "If all you take from this class are these drills, you will have gotten your money's worth." I would agree, and i would probably add "And then some" on to the getting your money's worth part. Again, sorry to everyone for bolting a day early and not really saying a proper good-bye; would have loved to stay, but i guess that's what next time is for.

That being said, i don't feel embarressed whatsoever for my performance. For this being my first class, i think i hung pretty tough with everyone. I don't recall holding the class back, or having any safety issues; if i did i apologize.

I think the main problem is that myself and Patrick misinterperated the skill level required for this course. I feel like i was lead to believe this was a course for beginners. Taken directly from a post by stephen on M4carbine regarding this class description:

ATS Tactical is extremely happy to announce that Vickers Tactical (Larry Vickers) will conduct a 3 Day Pistol/Carbine Operators course on Nov 14-16 2008 at the Ares Training Facility owned and operated by ATS Tactical. The facility is nestled on 100 acres of South Eastern pine forest and is approximately 1 hour SW of Tallahassee, 1 hour N of Panama City. or 1 hour E-SE of Pensacola.

1 day pistol / 2 day carbine Nov 14 - 16 2008

Vickers Tactical Pistol Basic

This class is an entry level course for handgun shooters and is designed specifically for those who have not had any formal instruction. Topics covered include the following: safety, stance, grip, sight alignment and trigger control. Familiarization with their service pistol includes field stripping and maintenance. In addition to this, other topics that are covered include reloads, draw, and introduction to different skill drills including dry fire and bullseye shooting.

Vickers Tactical Carbine Basic Course

An entry level course for carbine shooters. This class is geared for those who have not had any formal instruction. Topics covered include safety, stance, zeroing for iron sights and optics, sight alignment and trigger control. Familiarization with their carbine includes field stripping and maintenance. Other subject matter that is covered includes reloads, presentation, shooting positions, and introduction to different skill drills including dry fire and bullseye shooting.

Again, my apologies guys for holding things up. Like i said, i took a whole bunch out of the class and have tried to focus on the positive stuff that came from it. It was good to meet everyone... thanks again especially to Larry, Matt, & Brian.

James

[subzero]

I think the main problem is that myself and Patrick misinterperated the skill level required for this course. I feel like i was lead to believe this was a course for beginners.

I don't see the problem. What you got IS a course for people who've never had any formal instruction. Perhaps the assumption was that this is for people who don't know their ass from their elbow, and I don't think this class is that. If someone doesn't know the 4 basic rules of firearm safety by heart, this (or any) class is a bit much. If someone doesn't know the fundamentals like the gross manipulations of how to load and make ready, this class is a bit much. If someone doesn't know how to play by "big boy rules" at the range, this class is a bit much.

Maybe it seemed like it was more than a basic course, but as eloquently stated elsewhere, the advanced stuff is nothing but the basics done at high speed, proficiently.

[janichola]

Subzero,
I think you either misinterpreted my post or didn't fully read it. My post served to thank the instructors and other guys in the class for a good time. Not to make excuses to you or anyone else. As stated in my previous post, i don't think i have anything to be embarressed about. I think i did at least a somewhat decent job keeping up with everyone. I personally can't remember being singled out for any safety violations, nor were any brought up in the other members' reviews of the class, so i'm not sure what you think i am making excuses for? My paragraph regarding the course description was simply in response to Shivan asking "Question for anyone who knows: Was this course the most basic of LAV's courses? Was there a pre-req?". Also, this served to apologize for holding others up in the course, if that was the case, which it probably was. This was given to the fact that most of the other guys in the class were either former or active military with extensive training. Had you been in the class, you would have known that. So, you see, this, "I think the main problem is that myself and Patrick misinterperated the skill level required for this course. I feel like i was lead to believe this was a course for beginners." was not an excuse in any form for any of my safety violations or the like, as i didn't make any. I'm not sure how you would interprete that statement as such. You should know as well as the rest of us, there is NO excuse for an AD.

[30 cal slut]

1) learn from your mistakes.

2) don't repeat your mistakes.

3) i remind myself every now and then that a negligent discharge can happen to ANYONE.

4) the enemy is complacency. we get so comfortable around firearms ... but i have to constantly remind myself that firearms are like snakes. they will bite you when you let your guard down.

Be 100% switched on whether you are training solo or with 18 other guys.



Treat all guns as if they are loaded

Never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill.

Keep your finger straight and off the trigger.

Be absolutely sure of your target, and what is behind it.

[30 cal slut]

Far better to be embarassed in training, than to be dragged off to the hospital, jail, or morgue.

[Jay Cunningham]

This may seem like nitpickery, but let's discuss "The Four Rules" for a sec.

Here they are as best as I can condense them:


All guns are always loaded.

Never let your muzzle cover anything that you are unwilling to shoot.

Keep your finger off the trigger until you have decided to shoot.

Know your target and your backstop.


At first glance, this may seem like just a rehash of what 30 cal slut just posted, but there are actually important nuances.

Don't "treat" a gun "as if" it were loaded - it IS loaded until you verify it clear.

Now the muzzle thing. What is the difference between "never let the muzzle of a gun point at anything you do not want to destroy or kill" and "never let your muzzle cover anything that you are unwilling to shoot"? The answer is the word "unwilling". I may in fact cover a no-shoot with my muzzle until such time as I deem them not a threat... at which time I will no longer cover them with my muzzle. Up until my threat assessment I was in fact willing to shoot them.

Another common one is "keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target". Well, the theory is sound but there are in fact times when your sights aren't literally on target but you have made the decision to shoot. Shooting from retention and prepping the trigger during press-out come to mind.

Just some semantics that I think are important, mindset-wise.

[Matt Edwards]

Jani,

Don't worry about what the others are saying. They were not there. Yes, it is obvious that the other posters misunderstood you post.

You did a great job. Don't trip over someone else's clown shoes.

You should feel pretty good about your self. Honestly, so should Pat if you know what I mean.

You'll note, on another forum, the ND situation was not even brought up. Someone stated that it was "big boy rules". That is correct. The issue was handled by the big boys. There is no reason to drag someones mistake all over the net for our own benifit. The young man involved learned his lesson. There is not need to belittle him just make ourseves feel more "compatant".

[TOrrock]

Everybody starts on the ground floor and works their way up.

The fact that you took the time to actually take some training, and from one of the absolute premier instructors out there, speaks volumes about your willingness to learn and puts you several steps up from the average guy with a rifle.

No worries man, practice those drills and take more classes as you can!

[Matt Edwards]

Templar,

Good form.

[TOrrock]

I noticed that Larry has his new "Precious" on his carbine........:D

[SHIVAN]

You'll note, on another forum, the ND situation was not even brought up....There is no reason to drag someones mistake all over the net for our own benifit. The young man involved learned his lesson. There is not need to belittle him just make ourseves feel more "compatant".

Matt:

I don't intend to belittle anyone, but to be honest, even a ND, or two in this case, can be as useful as all the typical lessons people wish to cover in an AAR. Sanitized version, or not. They teach us, and remind us, to be diligent and switched on at all times when dealing with guns.

It instills in our minds that training with guns can be dangerous, and that we should all be aware of our surroundings and unknowns -- even on the square range. Even during the mundane.

An ND can happen to anyone, hell an AD could potentially happen to anyone. If you follow the four rules, people don't end up getting shot because of errant discharges of either type. A lesson almost as valuable as the ones Larry puts forth in his teaching.

If you disagree, I'm sorry.

Ed

[Matt Edwards]

I don't disagree with that. However, THAT and what seems to happening here are two different things.

[ToddG]

I'm confused about where the controversy arose here.

World-famous instructor is teaching a course.

Newbie student shows signs of poor and unsafe gun handling.

World-famous instructor counsels newbie student.

Newbie student continues to have problems following all required safety protocols.

World-famous instructor removes newbie student from class.

See, I wasn't there, but I'm going to go out on this crazy wild-ass limb and assume that just maybe Larry Vickers is a lot more qualified to figure out how things should have been handled than a bunch of folks who weren't there. But hey, that's just me.

[SHIVAN]

I don't disagree with that. However, THAT and what seems to happening here are two different things.

I think we've got a handle on it now.

At the end of the day, a critique of an AAR, or methods/foiables by those is attendance, is fairly commonplace. I routinely see questions about weapon setup, grip, stance, muzzle control, methods, drills etc....ad nausem. The internet requires a pretty thick skin.

A negligent discharge is a pretty extraordinary event to be recorded in an AAR. It's bound to garner a pretty volatile reaction, as we've all been on a range with unknown people and guns.

The best way to mold the event into a lesson, is to direct it in the way that Templar and I are attempting. While dangerous and not ideal, it can be a valuable teaching tool.

Maybe some folks want to remind people of other aspects of negligent discharges, but in the end I hope most walk away with an affirmation that it is a lesson from which we all learn.

[Matt Edwards]

Todd,

THAT was exactly my point. You made it far better then I did, however. I just get frustrated when the firemen show up after the fire is out.
On this particular subject, I'll stand down.

[RogerinTPA]

Gentlemen,

I did not intend to embarrass anyone who attended that course, but to provide a "lessons learned" critique. I'm pretty versed in including a detailed AAR , encompassing the truth of the events, as they unfolded. Not a sanitized spin. In my former units, we had detailed AARs that were called "Shoot outs", to exposed every part of the operation that went right and wrong. The data was recorded and placed in an historical file as "lessons learned" for any similar missions that may occur in the future.

I took this course as a refresher course and jumped at the chance to train and be trained, by Larry Vickers. I truly believe in learning from my mistakes as well as others. This is a serious and dangerous hobby we collectively have and the AAR serves as a reminder as to how dangerous taking a course like this can be. It makes me regroup and reinforce the four basic rules of firearms handling. Which was reiterated by LAV during the safety briefing (His spin on the four rules, every bullet has a lawyer attached, etc....). If your buddy had shot me in the back when he had his ND right behind me, there would have been a pivotal moment in both our lives.

I, as well as others, were more than willing to help you and others out. I have no problems since I used to participate in shooting clinics back in the day, to assist new shooters to improve their score. You NE team guys hung with the class and was performing well and making improvements, we all were. You guys are nice, polite, well liked, BUT...this is a serious and extremely dangerous hobby you have undertaken. I intentionally didn't use your buddy's real name in the AAR as to not put it out on the World Wide Web. Someone else "unzipped that fly".

If nothing else, in my mind, we are all better for the knowledge gained and serves as a constant reminder that we can kill someone in a heartbeat, if we are not situationally aware of what we are doing with a firearm in hand and not keeping the four rules in the front of our cranial housing group. I would like to see both you guys get more training and see you again in another class. I want to see both you guys become proficient in firearms handling and above all, being safe. It's all about our collective leaning curve here.

[RogerinTPA]

I noticed that Larry has his new "Precious" on his carbine........:D

Yup. Also I really have to get a DD rail like LAV (RIS II) or Matt's (lite rail12.0 FSP). Their rails are the shizzle!:cool:

[SeriousStudent]

Yup. I really have to get a DD rail like LAV (RIS II) or Matt's (lite rail12.0 FSP). Their rails are the shizzle!:cool:


Robb at VA Arms put one of the RIS II rails on my 6920 upper, and it's on its way back home as we speak. :cool:

[Matt Edwards]

Rog,

I had the DD put on one of my carbines before last summer and don't know how I got along without it. Even though I only mount a light, It makes it possible to put it where *I* want it and not where the rail dictates. The extra real estate gives you more options with both equipment and hand placement. It also made my gun even lighter then my other KAC equipped carbine.
My rail was the standard "older" style. Larry's was the newer rail.( with the bolts in the rear) I'm currently selling some of the wife's stuff to afford one for my other 6920.;)

The X300 on the carbine made it easy to engage the B/C zone target past 100 yds at night. I just thought that was an interesting tidbit. I may have made it further back at night then I did during the day because I could see the target clearly and didn't have to aim where I "thought" the target was.

One thing that is worth mention is one of Altha's "Camp Ares" biggest perks;
After training is complete, students and instructors just don't jump in their cars and head out on there own back to their hotel rooms. They go back to the Team Room and eat together, and then hang out together. The instructor, in this case Larry, is right there. After hours, I was talking to a couple students and they were asking me about different issues. I began to answer their questions as best as I could, then just said. "Wait...why don't you walk over there, and just ask Larry?"
I told Larry about this and he stated "That is what you guys are paying me for aren't you?" For me, this makes the closed environment of Ares very unique.

[rob_s]

One thing that is worth mention is one of Altha's "Camp Ares" biggest perks;
After training is complete, students and instructors just don't jump in their cars and head out on there own back to their hotel rooms. They go back to the Team Room and eat together, and then hang out together. The instructor, in this case Larry, is right there. After hours, I was talking to a couple students and they were asking me about different issues. I began to answer their questions as best as I could, then just said. "Wait...why don't you walk over there, and just ask Larry?"
I told Larry about this and he stated "That is what you guys are paying me for aren't you?" For me, this makes the closed environment of Ares very unique.

That's one of the biggest reasons I want to train there.

Now, if you could just move it about 5 hours closer to South Florida.... :D

[Robb Jensen]

Robb at VA Arms put one of the RIS II rails on my 6920 upper, and it's on its way back home as we speak. :cool:

Yep it looks very nice.
I'm thinking of picking up one of those myself. What's funny is the brown ones were made in Feb/March 08 and the black ones in Aug 08.

[RogerinTPA]

The X300 on the carbine made it easy to engage the B/C zone target past 100 yds at night. I just thought that was an interesting tidbit. I may have made it further back at night then I did during the day because I could see the target clearly and didn't have to aim where I "thought" the target was.

I wish everyone would've had their carbine so equipped. I just mounted my X300 that afternoon and was hoping to utilize it during the night training. :(


One thing that is worth mention is one of Altha's "Camp Ares" biggest perks; After training is complete, students and instructors just don't jump in their cars and head out on there own back to their hotel rooms. They go back to the Team Room and eat together, and then hang out together. The instructor, in this case Larry, is right there. After hours, I was talking to a couple students and they were asking me about different issues. I began to answer their questions as best as I could, then just said. "Wait...why don't you walk over there, and just ask Larry?"
I told Larry about this and he stated "That is what you guys are paying me for aren't you?" For me, this makes the closed environment of Ares very unique.

The breaks on the range, meal breaks and after hours element, definitely gave the course added training value. :cool:

[Wesley]

Along with that added benefit, we watched episodes 1-5 of Tactical Impact with LAV and learned the new LAV Lee-Enfield drill.

[Farva]

Hey, kid with the multicam hat here.

Due to schedule and age restraints, I was only able attend the first day of pistol training. If I could describe the day with one word, it would be intensive. Every round you fired was accounted for, and if you missed, you found out why.

The day started out with a lecture in the classroom on safety and the fundamentals of shooting. after that we proceeded to the range. we started off there with a dry fire drill where your partner balanced a spent casing on your front sight and you pulled the trigger without knocking it off. since doc A and I both had big dots, matt lent us his g-17 for the excercise.

We then proceded to do a variation of the ball and dummy drill where your partner readies your gun with either a loaded or empty chamber behind your back. Very effective at showing any flinch or "El Snatcho" as LAV calls it. Fortunately, as I am a seventeen year old who fired less than 300 live rounds in my life before this course, my dry fire practice payed off and I did not have much problem at all with the El Snatcho virus. Some others were not as lucky.

Doc b had only been taught the Israeli instinctive point shooting bullshit prior to this and had an extra large hurdle to overcome to learn how to shoot properly. he made drastic improvements over the day and finished the day in the top half IMO.

After that we did a trigger reset drill where you pulled the trigger and your partner immediately recocked your gun and you reset the trigger.

We had philly cheese steak and fries for lunch. There was an ice chest full of water and gatorade. we ate at polymer picnic tables under an aluminum carport thingy. It was hot and muggy the first day so the shade was quite nice.

During one of the breaks LAV did a class on lubrication. his opinion on lube was that more than enough was better than less than enough.

Then we did a walk back drill shooting a torso sized steel. We started around 20 yards and proceeded to around 70 yards the first time around, and later went out to around 100 yds.

We did a bunch of walk back drills on the paper targets, from 3-20 yds, firing from the ready.

After that we practiced some of the same drills from the draw.

LAV covered the reload and we practiced that for a bit.

We did some competitive walk backs after that.

The final drill of the day was to shoot five targets from the 10 yd line and keep the shots in the black. IIRC, only LAV and I succesfully completed this drill.
Matt came close only barely missing the last target.

Overall, it was a very intensive course. Unlike some of the bullet hose schools out there, it was a low round count course (250 or so) and every round was accounted for. Extremely accuracy foucused.

The course was an ass-kicking blast. If you have not trained with LAV, do it. It will far exceed your expectations.

[RogerinTPA]

Hey Farva, you did some pretty good shooting guy! Too bad you couldn't stay. Be sure to sign up for another class.;)